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griff38
03-11-2003, 06:31 PM
Here we are begging the world to let us disarm Iraq of weapons of mass destruction and today here in Florida the Airforce tested a 21000 lbs bomb.


Does anyone smell Hypocrisy?

And if you got the fleschette secondary fire to say it is not a weapon of mass destructrion let me drop one you.

Reborn Outcast
03-11-2003, 06:34 PM
Well its the whole principle of the thing. The US has proven that they won't use bombs for the sole purpose of destruction, therefore we are trusted in this area. Saddam on the other hand... I think you see what I'm getting at.

And the bomb was mostly used for psychological purposes. It will however, be used against Iraq under dire circumstances.

El Sitherino
03-11-2003, 06:42 PM
hahahahaha duh thats the whole point of this the US government wants everyone except itself to have nuclear arms and other weapons of mass destruction.

El Sitherino
03-11-2003, 06:45 PM
Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
The US has proven that they won't use bombs for the sole purpose of destruction, therefore we are trusted HAHA i doubt that anyone in the world trusts america. we freakin bombed japan all over the place with nuclear weapons. for what a few hundred american soldiers dying. thats stupid. if anything they should have just blown up a japanese harbor not melt all those citizens alive. thats cruel not to mention evil.

munik
03-11-2003, 07:04 PM
Two nuclear bombs were dropped on Japan. Nagasaki was an industrial city, so a viable target. Hiroshima was just a population center I believe, but if your intention was terror, it was a good target. Blowing up a harbor when all the ships are at sea is not really a good choice for one of the few nuclear bombs you have. Also, the invasion of Japan would have taken more then "a few hundred american soldiers" lives. It was estimated in the millions, and years of time. Yes the bombing was bad, but you are seriously incorrect in your consideration of it.

I'm curious as to what this bomb is. Could someone offer up a link to it? Or at least give a name? The largest bomb that I know of is a "daisy cutter", a fuel-air bomb. I reckon a 10 and a half ton bomb might be bigger then a daisy cutter. But it wouldn't surprise me if they were one in the same.

Reborn Outcast
03-11-2003, 07:13 PM
Munik here is a link and yes it is bigger than a daisy cutter.

Here it is. (http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/03/11/sprj.irq.moab/index.html)





And Insane you hav eto understand. Japan destroyed many ships, put the Pacific fleet out of commission, and killed many many lives BECAUSE THEY FELT LIKE IT. The US was actually TRYING and was succeding in being neutral and staying out of the whole war altogether. Then Japan attacked them. What else was the US supposed to do?

munik
03-11-2003, 07:15 PM
I did a little searching for information on this, since that's one thing that seems to sparse in this forum, and I came up with a couple of links.

This fatty bloom blatty of a link is about a daisy cutter (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1641411.stm)

This ball swinging link is to a page with many news links concerning the Massive Ordinance Air Burst (MOAB) bomb that this thread pertains to. (http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&q=21%2C000+bomb)

So I think it I was somewhat right, this is just the new version of the daisy cutter, with more power.


Edit--I started typing this before your post Reborn, but I reckon I'll still post it.

dvader28
03-11-2003, 07:16 PM
And the fact that Japan was losing anyway, knew it, and was planning on surrendering means nothing i suppose?

El Sitherino
03-11-2003, 07:55 PM
Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
Insane you hav eto understand. Japan destroyed many ships, put the Pacific fleet out of commission, and killed many many lives BECAUSE THEY FELT LIKE IT. The US was actually TRYING and was succeding in being neutral and staying out of the whole war altogether. Then Japan attacked them. What else was the US supposed to do? uhm not kill millions of innocent people for one. plus so what it was a military fleet the us had no right MURDERING Billions of innocent people.

ShockV1.89
03-11-2003, 08:12 PM
*Is wondering if InsaneSiths little brother got online*

InsaneSith, you seriously need to stop skewing the facts. First off, it wasnt billions of people killed. (Did it even top 1 million? I dont know, someone clarify a death couth)

Secondly, skewing the facts and numbers of out proportion make your argument look juvenile. "A few hundred american soldiers..." What, are you stoned? There were a few hundred american soldiers on a single ship alone. Do you think we intended on atacking with a single ship? "billions of people" Dude, there's 6.5 billion people in the WORLD. I highly doubt that a third of that lived in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Finally, they werent innocents, not really. Japanese culture teaches that all citizens were warriors. I've seen footage of the Japanese military training women and children to throw grenades, or train them as suicide bombers. The A-bombs were needed so that the Emperor would make them surrender. Only he could keep them from fighting to the last person.

Are you ok? You're not usualy this... childish...:confused:

obi
03-11-2003, 10:30 PM
This is how I feel about it:

(And sorry for using a star trek episode for example, but it's a good example)


In one episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation, William Riker was collecting data on a planet with a species that has no warp drive technology. Later in the episode, the species realizes that Riker is an alien, and that there are more of him. Captain Picard, in an attempt to save Riker, had the leader of the planet beamed aboard, and asked him to join the Federation. The leader said:

"And you will share all of this technology with us?!"

Picard replied:

"No, I am afraid not."

The leader then says:

"Is this your way of maintaining superiority?"

Picard answerd:

"No.....You must understand, to give a primative species new technology could be.....dangerous."


Now, giving a cave man a machine gun or rocket launcher is not a good idea.

Letting a madman have a nuclear missle is not a good idea either.

SkinWalker
03-11-2003, 11:54 PM
Originally posted by dvader28
And the fact that Japan was losing anyway, knew it, and was planning on surrendering means nothing i suppose?

Actually, Japan may have lost... and many of the Japanese government and military may have acknowledged their eventual demise, but they were commited to going down fighting. This was the country that used Kamakazee pilots on a frequent basis. That's commitment.

A conventional win in the war with Japan would have cost both sides hundreds of thousands of lives. I would contend that, while two bombs was probably one too many, the nuclear bomb saved the lives of many more times the number killed.

I don't recall any mention in History classes about Japan being ready to surrender... but I could be mistaken.

SkinWalker

SkinWalker
03-12-2003, 12:01 AM
Originally posted by griff38
And if you got the fleschette secondary fire to say it is not a weapon of mass destructrion let me drop one you.

One would also have to consider the bomb's purpose. Dropped on a target and detonated several feet from the ground, the previous daisy cutter could clear a 900-foot radius of mines. It could also defeat heavily fortified positions. Each of these are the type of obstacles that can cost hundreds, and likely thousands of lives, to clear / overcome prior to continuing on to the next objective.

If such a weapon were used on a population center... that would be bad. And would serve no purpose or offer no advantage, therefore it wouldn't be used in that manner.

I'm against the U.S. being involved in a war with Iraq, but I'm very interested in it being finished with the lowest casualty count possible.

SkinWalker

ET Warrior
03-12-2003, 12:47 AM
Weird, me and my friends were playing Halo tonight and we were kind of discussing this same topic....it got pretty heated.....crazy.



uhm not kill millions of innocent people for one. plus so what it was a military fleet the us had no right MURDERING Billions of innocent people.

Yeah, a military fleet that WASNT GOING TO ATTACK THEM. they MURDERED innocent soldiers. We were demolishing their military, and they still weren't surrendering..should more allied lives have been lost because the Japanese were too proud to admit defeat?

BigTeddyPaul
03-12-2003, 04:46 AM
The reason that the US decided to use the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was because the Emperor told the people of Japan to fight to the last man and they would have. Could you imagine taking on every single person in an entire country? I don't care if it is the smallest country that is still a lot of people. America also struck 3 days apart so as to give the Emperor time to think it over. If he would have given up sooner one city could have been spared. Not trying to say Japan made us drop the second bomb but there was no way our army could have taken an entire country thousands of miles away. It was a necessary evil. The projected casualties were in the 100 millions to take the country by the way.

Still say a little prayer every 6th and 9th that that never happens again.

BigTeddyPaul

griff38
03-12-2003, 09:15 AM
This bomb is just a larger version of the daisy cutter a fuel air bomb.
For those who would like to know, the bomb does not rely on shrapnel like standard iron bombs. Instead it releases a cloud of vaporized fuel that if not ignited would be like gasoline rain. But after the fuel is released into a cloud like vapor, a small charge attached at the rear of the bomb flies into the vapor cloud and ignites it. This creates a fireball in the air about the size of a city block above the target, a shockwave is genrated from the explosion that is unbelievable.

This is not a new idea, it does nothing regular bombs can't do, very few aircraft can carry it.

Why was it made?

To put money in the pockets of weapons manufacturers.

greedo626
03-12-2003, 09:39 AM
I believe the whole idea behind dropping the A-bomb on Japan was so they wouldn't attack again in the future (like Germany). Japan was close to crippling the U.S., if they had destroyed the Pacific fleet there would have been nothing between them and the west coast. invasion would have been likely. then the Japanese would have been killing innocent people left and right (look what they did in China). we dropped the bomb so they would know that if they ever tried to attack us again, we wouldn't wait till the end of the war to drop the bomb.

ShadowTemplar
03-12-2003, 09:56 AM
There were three main reasons to drop the bomb:

Batter Japan into surrender.

Establish US superiority on a global scale.

Testing it.

JoelBanner
03-12-2003, 12:46 PM
Another one of the reason that the bombs was used is psychological. That is the same reason for the mother of all bombs and for the daisy cutters that were used in to mountians of torrah borrah. We want to scare the heck out of the Iraqi troops. Will it work? Probably not but, you never know.

PS: ShockV1.89, the total death count was approximately 100,000 total for both of the atomic bombs dropped on Japan.

ShadowTemplar
03-12-2003, 01:11 PM
I've unearthed some info on the Hiroshima Bomb on another occasion (someone asked in the Stories Forum (http://www.lucasforums.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=434)).

I just thought that I'd link (http://www.csi.ad.jp/ABOMB/) to it.

The main site is on Japanese, so you probably won't get much out of it (I don't, anyway, I just found the subsection I linked to on Yahoo).

El Sitherino
03-12-2003, 03:49 PM
im very sorry i regret acting childish. the reason that the bombings of japan are serious to me is because my grandfather was injured and sent to japan for rehabilitation and he left only a few hours before the bombing. the bombings were to take place while he was still there but they had a delay on releasing the bombs.

munik
03-12-2003, 09:09 PM
Originally posted by JoelBanner
Another one of the reason that the bombs was used is psychological. That is the same reason for the mother of all bombs and for the daisy cutters that were used in to mountians of torrah borrah. We want to scare the heck out of the Iraqi troops. Will it work? Probably not but, you never know.

Yep, seeing one of those big suckers floating down would scare the crap out of me. I've seen video footage of daisy cutters used to clear out helicopter landing zones in Vietnam. Very intimidating. Reduced a section of dense jungle into a circle of dirt. Thats it, just dirt, it completely blew away everything.

But I don't think the moab would get much use, only with stationary targets. I'm assuming they are deployed with a parachute, just like daisy cutters. Easy for troops to avoid. I reckon these bombs can just make bigger LZ's then the daisy cutters, but I doubt that's gonna be a problem in the desert.

Reborn Outcast
03-12-2003, 09:36 PM
No i dont think that they're deployed by parachute. Thats what makes them effective against moving targets as well. In fact, that site I linked to you explained all that I believe. :D

ET Warrior
03-13-2003, 12:46 AM
The bomb I believe is pulled out of the cargo plane carrying it by deploying a parachute behind it and letting the parachute pull it out the back, then the bomb has satellite guidance, allowing the bomb to be guided wherever they want to hit.
MOAB, privately known in military circles as "the mother of all bombs," has been under development since late last year. The bomb carries 18,000 pounds of tritonal explosives, which have an indefinite shelf life. It replaces the Vietnam-era "Daisy Cutter," a 15,000-pound bomb with 12,600 pounds of the less-powerful GSX explosives.
As originally conceived, the MOAB was to be used against large formations of troops and equipment or hardened above-ground bunkers. The target set has also been expanded to include deeply buried targets.
But military officials tell CNN that the MOAB is mainly conceived as a weapon employed for "psychological operations." Military officials say they hope the MOAB will create such a huge blast that it will rattle Iraq troops and pressure them into surrendering or not even fighting. Officials suggest perhaps the Iraqis might even mistake a MOAB blast for a nuclear detonation.

griff38
03-13-2003, 10:09 AM
I had an oportunity to see a fuel air bomb from about 2 miles a way back in 1983. It was closer to the daisy cutter than the new moab.

Honestly I was not impressed by the single big explosion, i don't think it has the effect a carpet bombing run from a b-52 which can drop 36000 lbs of bombs at once does. Man when that happens the earth shakes the air vibrates and you feel like you can't breath. And thats from miles away.

Tyrion
03-13-2003, 10:29 AM
Originally posted by InsaneSith
im very sorry i regret acting childish. the reason that the bombings of japan are serious to me is because my grandfather was injured and sent to japan for rehabilitation and he left only a few hours before the bombing. the bombings were to take place while he was still there but they had a delay on releasing the bombs.

Then,of course,my grandfather was an mortar officer in Korea, so if we hadnt bombed Japan, I may not be here today.

Breton
03-13-2003, 10:53 AM
Originally posted by Tyrion
Then,of course,my grandfather was an mortar officer in Korea, so if we hadnt bombed Japan, I may not be here today.

Argh! Damn the US for bombing Japan!


:D

SkinWalker
03-13-2003, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by griff38
Honestly I was not impressed by the single big explosion, i don't think it has the effect a carpet bombing run from a b-52 which can drop 36000 lbs of bombs at once does. Man when that happens the earth shakes the air vibrates and you feel like you can breath. And thats from miles away.

It reminds me of an interesting anecdote from the first Gulf War. I was a member of a three-man Multiple Launch Rocket System (http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/1029269) crew. As the Sergeant, I was the Gunner. Our rocket system could launch 12 rockets to a range of 30 - 40 km or so. Each rocket had a warhead event at about 200 - 300 m above the ground, which released 644 for each rocket. Realistically, an entire 1 Km square area could be targeted.

Accounts from the Iraqis that surrendered were that they initially thought that our rockets were defective when they saw the puff of smoke from the warhead event, they quickly changed their minds when the bomblets rained down on their positions. "No more rockets!" was the quote I remember.

So if the MOAB is intended to have a psychological effect as well as a physical one, there is a lot to be said about it. I wouldn't want to be standing under it's self-guided parachute rig.

I still cling to a hope that Saddam will go into exile, but I've a feeling that this won't happen. I guess it will depend on whether his greed will prevail over his ego (Saddam personally controls a vast amount of wealth, which he can enjoy in quiet retirement).

I condemn our government for pressing the invasion, but support my fellow warriors (many of whom I know personally) who are doing their duty.

SkinWalker

C'jais
03-13-2003, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by SkinWalker
I was a member of a three-man Multiple Launch Rocket System (http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/1029269) crew. As the Sergeant, I was the Gunner. Our rocket system could launch 12 rockets to a range of 30 - 40 km or so. Each rocket had a warhead event at about 200 - 300 m above the ground, which released 644 for each rocket. Realistically, an entire 1 Km square area could be targeted.

Can I worship you?

I have accepted Skinwalker as my personal Lord and Saviour.

God bless the MLRS.

SkinWalker
03-13-2003, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by C'jais


Can I worship you?

I have accepted Skinwalker as my personal Lord and Saviour.

God bless the MLRS. [/B]

Sniff... sniff.... do I smell a little sarcasm? :D

Big Daddy Skin

griff38
03-13-2003, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by SkinWalker
.

I condemn our government for pressing the invasion, but support my fellow warriors (many of whom I know personally) who are doing their duty.

SkinWalker


Agreed 110%.

I hope every single Soldier, Sailor & Marine returns home without a scratch.


Ive sent you several pm's, is your box full SkinWalker?

SkinWalker
03-13-2003, 11:30 PM
Griff: I got one... saying that you sent me several pms... ;) My box only has one in it... yours says that it is full, however.

Everyone: I think it is also interesting that the US government is already taking bids on rebuilding (http://enr.construction.com/news/bizlabor/archives/030310b.asp) Iraq and its oil industry (http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Mar2003/b03132003_bt116-03.html).

I actually like the idea of the MOAB if it can be used appropriately (one MOAB will finance just about any one social program in any one city, however), but I find these links very interesting if not hypocritical. It proves that the Bush administration has, indeed, made up its mind, probably months ago.

CagedCrado
03-14-2003, 07:57 PM
Hopefully to be dropped on PARIS. Which is in FRANCE (aka home of the wimps, drunks, smelly, hairy, and ugly.)

El Sitherino
03-14-2003, 08:11 PM
Originally posted by CagedCrado
Hopefully to be dropped on PARIS. Which is in FRANCE (aka home of the wimps, drunks, smelly, hairy, and ugly.) you really are an idiot arent you?

Breton
03-14-2003, 08:13 PM
It's probably his 7-year old little brother or something, no one acting that immature and stupid can manage to get nearly 300 posts before getting banned.

El Sitherino
03-14-2003, 08:20 PM
either that or he has succumb to the dark side.

ShockV1.89
03-15-2003, 11:49 AM
No, no, its really cagecrado. His posts just span very far apart, so nobody ever really gets mad enough at him to get him banned. By the time he does it again, you've forgotten about the last time...

Breton
03-15-2003, 08:21 PM
Originally posted by ShockV1.89
No, no, its really cagecrado. His posts just span very far apart, so nobody ever really gets mad enough at him to get him banned. By the time he does it again, you've forgotten about the last time...

I will remember.

*writes down note: "CagedCrado trolling in March 2003"*

Reborn Outcast
03-15-2003, 11:10 PM
Originally posted by C'jais
God bless the MLRS. [/B]

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

C'jais said God bless something.

:eek: :eek:




;) :D




And yes i was wrong, the MOAB has a parachute but it uses it only to get out of the planes way, then the GMS takes over.

FunClown
03-16-2003, 08:44 AM
I didn't like what I saw on the news.

It wouldn't have worried me but they showed Rumsfeld anouncing it and stuff and he said this thing is powerful or something like that and the whole place cracked up laughing. That was sick.

Officials suggest perhaps the Iraqis might even mistake a MOAB blast for a nuclear detonation.

Is this a good thing? Would the US government go to war with themselves?

*********** *********

In relation to WWII and Japan. It saved thousands of allied soldiers lives and ended a war imo. Wouldn't say millions wouldn't say hundreds.

In primary school they taught us about WWII and feeling sorry for the Japanese who got the A-bomb dropped on them. However, they failed to mention anything about feeling sorry for the allies. They pillaged, raped, murdered, who they invaded, in my own country where I am sitting in Australia, we were willing to give up this land to the Japanese. There are even turret mounts that you can see a bit further south where the borders would have been protected.

They bombed Darwin and Sydney as well.

My grandfather on my mum's side said that if they would have come here they would have enslaved anyone fit enough and put the sword through the rest. He fought in this war and had two brothers who died in a POW camp in which only 4 people escaped and 3 survived. I don't even want to go into what happened at other POW camps.

My advice is to learn what the Japanese did, and learn about how their government still hides the truth today by checking text books to make sure they don't say anything bad against the Japanese. Heck, if I was born in Japan having a white father and a Japanese mother I would be unable to attend Japanese public schools as they would find me offensive. A friend of our family's son was in this situation.

In conclusion, the Japanese still think where the bad invaders who bombed them for no reason.

matt--
03-16-2003, 09:03 AM
I just wanted to pop in and say that the Japanese were no close to surrendering after we dropped the first[/n] bomb...hence the second. The fact is that we [b]only had two bombs, but America bluffed the Japanese Emperor into thinking we would bomb the country every few days until Japan forfeit.

I think the bombs were the best conceivable solution.