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TheHobGoblin
03-12-2003, 10:10 PM
First this isn't "Bash the president central!" I'm supporting him, so this is for the Bush supporters. I'm making my stand. War is here already. We're to deep in this situation. It's gonna happen You know it. Now I don't have enough credits for attachments so I'll just make it with the words.



Bush Is Our President
The supporters keep America going

Cry babies don't

Take a hike cry baby

America home of the BRAVE

I will support him for he has brought security to the Land. Where I was born and where I will die. It's too late to complain and argue war is coming and is near. I know Bush will bring us through. Becuase he is my president.

obi
03-12-2003, 10:14 PM
Whats this? A supporter for Bush?


A rare site these days, though I'm one myself.


However, I don't view the other side's opinions as making them crybabies. I just think they have a purpose as well as we do, and no one knows who is right and who is wrong.

Father Torque
03-12-2003, 10:16 PM
i too am a Bush suporter:D

Boba Rhett
03-13-2003, 12:28 AM
I too like G-Bu.

ET Warrior
03-13-2003, 12:36 AM
While I think that George Bush is quite unintelligent, and probably not the best president we've ever had, he still is doing what he feels is necessary, and I quite frankly don't think he's a war monger.....i'll bet the public doesn't know 1/100th of the stuff that G.W. knows about the situation in Iraq, all they get is what they can find in the media.

Vestril
03-13-2003, 12:52 AM
I was just going to post one thing...but I couldn't resist, what with all the people I knew in this thread...

Ok, so Bush isn't as bad as I thought he would be at first...my initial opinions were formed when I was in a fairly...Democratic environment (AKA a University known for its parties :p), he's easy to make fun of since he is a pretty mediocre public speaker...he gets points for passion, but loses major points for technical ability ;).

However, he chose pretty good people to support and advise him, which is a lot more than I can say for Overlord CLIN-TON, so I can't really bash him much. As for the war, I pretty much agree that it would be best for it to just get over with, I mean, it's pretty clear that it's going to happen, so what the heck...

I was talking to an old friend of mine, however, and he persuaded me that North Korea should be Bush's focus...

Ok, I understand that Iraq is a much more clear enemy, and what's more it's in the middle east, which is where the enemy who masterminded one of this country's grander tragedies hails from, so it makes for a more poigniant target, however, Iraq isn't as dangerous a threat!! North Korea quite probably has missiles capable of reaching the West Coast already, and speaking as someone who lives in San Diego, a ripe target as you should know, I would rather them contained than Iraq.

While I don't think that the UN inspectors will really do much to disarm Iraq, I think that that public pressure is enough to harry them, and the time and enery that has been spent into war with Iraq really would have been better spent preparing for war with Korea.

This is really more of an opening line...I'm curious to see if anyone else has any opinions on the matter...

To summarize...I think Bush is OK, but pointing his gun at the wrong target...

Loki GM
03-13-2003, 12:59 AM
I really dont like bush for getting us into this mess but now that it is unavoidable I will support the war and the people that I know that are over there.

Weapon X
03-13-2003, 01:07 AM
Originally posted by TheHobGoblin
First this isn't "Bash the president central!" I'm supporting him, so this is for the Bush supporters. I'm making my stand. War is here already. We're to deep in this situation. It's gonna happen You know it. Now I don't have enough credits for attachments so I'll just make it with the words.



Bush Is Our President
The supporters keep America going

Cry babies don't

Take a hike cry baby

America home of the BRAVE

I will support him for he has brought security to the Land. Where I was born and where I will die. It's too late to complain and argue war is coming and is near. I know Bush will bring us through. Becuase he is my president.

i have two of my best childhood friends in kuwait and baghdad right now, 2-3 more are going to marine boot camp this summer, my brother was lucky enough to get out on medical (they reinjured his knee) or he'd be over there too, i also have a friend in virginia who might go over if it gets too bad. bush is a bad man, i never wanted him as president and now that he's ****in w/a hornet's nest we'll see what happens, many people will die, and you support that? do you have anyone close to you in the military? in the frontlines? i do, and i do NOT want this war to happen, it's a VERY bad idea and i have no idea why you want it, how old are you? cuz i used to be like "yeah lets go kill some bad guys!" but now that i'm older i THINK about what i say, if you DO have someone close to you in the frontlines i feel sorry for them cuz YOU are a bad person and wish to send some of your FELLOW COUNTRYMEN to their deaths so bush can "rid the world of evil" i'll bet someone makes an attempt on bush's life, they should and miss on purpose so he thinks about that **** more thoroughly, i hope YOU go over there and see what it's like, sure we'll win, but not w/o the cost of young lives


EDIT: there's a fine line between bravery and stupidity, bush crossed that line, our MILITARY is brave for actually putting up w/those orders, not the people who sit on their asses at home saying "LET'S GO TO WAR I'M READY!" and you're safely at home eating chips or sandwiches or something like that while you watch "your" countrymen put their lives on the line so you can go on w/your life

also, if bush is so smart and great, why is he gonna fund iraq troops for rebuilding when oil is so high and he could make prices lower for us, help out his own country or the one we just beat the hell out of, that's also one of my problems w/him

now i will leave this thread and not come back to read what you have to say, so you know my opinion and since you support war i dont' care to hear yours




Real mature, Anakin. Real mature. :rolleyes: -rhett

Rogue15
03-13-2003, 01:10 AM
I think NK is next after Iraq. Wouldn't it kindof be a waste of money to have to send the troops and stuff back home when the job is only half done?

Rogue Nine
03-13-2003, 01:14 AM
I support Bush in pretty much every aspect of his adminstration, save for his foreign policy. This whole situation doesn't score him any points from me.

ET Warrior
03-13-2003, 01:16 AM
Ummmm, isn't it kind of silly to be pissed that they are in a military situation when they JOINED the military in the first place? I mean seriously, what do you think the military is for?:confused:

And i'll tell you mr ep2 anakin, NONE OF US WANT WAR. BUSH doesn't want war. But it's GOING TO HAPPEN.

No, I suppose you're right, let's just sit back, and let Saddam Hussein murder countless innocents with his horrible chemical weapons, and then I say let North Korea start nuking people. What the hell, just so long as our MILITARY doesn't have to do any MILITARY activities.....sounds like a good plan.:rolleyes:

Boba Rhett
03-13-2003, 01:28 AM
Exactly, ET. Those men and women joined the military for a reason. They volunteered to defend my country. They weren't pulled form there homes at gunpoint and shipped over there.

You're talking as if anybody who supports the war is either immature or hasn't stopped to think this out. Which is, ironically, not well thought out. I'm sure there are people like that but many of us are not that way.

And I don't care if you have very strong opinions about these matters. Many of us do but we don't get immature about it. You will respect your fellow members of this forum or your opinion is not going to be heard here at all.

Father Torque
03-13-2003, 01:45 AM
Originally posted by ep2 Anakin
i have two of my best childhood friends in kuwait and baghdad right now, 2-3 more are going to marine boot camp this summer, my brother was lucky enough to get out on medical (they reinjured his knee) or he'd be over there too, i also have a friend in virginia who might go over if it gets too bad. bush is a bad man, i never wanted him as president and now that he's ****in w/a hornet's nest we'll see what happens, many people will die, and you support that? do you have anyone close to you in the military? in the frontlines? i do, and i do NOT want this war to happen, it's a VERY bad idea and i have no idea why you want it, how old are you? cuz i used to be like "yeah lets go kill some bad guys!" but now that i'm older i THINK about what i say, if you DO have someone close to you in the frontlines i feel sorry for them cuz YOU are a bad person and wish to send some of your FELLOW COUNTRYMEN to their deaths so bush can "rid the world of evil" i'll bet someone makes an attempt on bush's life, they should and miss on purpose so he thinks about that **** more thoroughly, i hope YOU go over there and see what it's like, sure we'll win, but not w/o the cost of young lives


EDIT: there's a fine line between bravery and stupidity, bush crossed that line, our MILITARY is brave for actually putting up w/those orders, not the people who sit on their asses at home saying "LET'S GO TO WAR I'M READY!" and you're safely at home eating chips or sandwiches or something like that while you watch "your" countrymen put their lives on the line so you can go on w/your life

also, if bush is so smart and great, why is he gonna fund iraq troops for rebuilding when oil is so high and he could make prices lower for us, help out his own country or the one we just beat the hell out of, that's also one of my problems w/him

now i will leave this thread and not come back to read what you have to say, so you know my opinion and since you support war i dont' care to hear yours




Real mature, Anakin. Real mature. :rolleyes: -rhett

What do you mean they are brave because they follow his orders. You have to realize that He has to think not only about America but the whole world. Its quite obvisious judging the evidence of crulty that Sadhamm Hussen has done to people over the past century. he has slaughtered and massacared hundreds of people. What do people mean when they say "There is no evidence on any weapons in Iraq. 17 empty nuclear warheads found. Ring a bell in yo ear people. You cant sit here and tell me that some idiots from who nows where found empty warheads and his them in Iraq. You and I both know its bologna. Back to bush. Who cares if he cant say a few words or prounounce a couple. Look at you guys you sit at your computer all day at a forum which will never have you succed to anything. You have no responsiblity. He has to handle Millions of people. Do you think he wants war. NO of course not, but its the only way out of this terrorism mess. And on 9/11. What does this crap mean. Oh he doesnt care about anything woe is me, he is a horrible president because he cant say, "w". Ahhhhhhhh he hates america. That is just crap crap crap crap crap. Now ET couldnt be more clear he is right on. People sometimes join the military because of courage. bravery and the honor to hold and fight for the US and some are drafted. But when ya think about it, how did we become a nation. Britan didnt just say ok sure that cool. There was WAR. And now is not the time to win with words because words dont work in the real world. You have to go through pain sometimes to get what you want. Also would you rather have the USA die and have your 2 friends live or have America 600+ million people live and have 2 friends risk there lives. Do the math i hope you get the right answer. ALSO all you non-bush people who cares if he cant say stuff or pronounce words. He is an impecable president and i dont think ANYONE can give me an INTELEGENT reason on why he is a bad president.

Oooooh and Anakin if your so mature and grown up why is a 12 year old telling you this stuff. Not all kids ar WAR freaks. And also if youre so intelegent and old and mature why cant you face up to the fact that just because your friends are on the frontline and were sending them to Iraq to save a WHOLE other people are BAD. Why dont you just leave LF because were all BAD PEOPLE. If i had a dear friend on the frontline i would be supporting him, not moaning about YOU. Thats all it is its about YOU and YOUR fellings noby elses. People like you make me disgusted.

Also Anakin its people like you who sit on your but and cry about your problems on a fun and opinionated forum. Why dont you get off you're but enroll and save a country. Your friends and others have a better chance of dying if we go to war. If no war. Sadam will nuke us all kill 6 billion people and the earth will be no more. Are you willing to distor gods great creation for your benefit i hope not. Also im underaged, but i sure as hell would support my country in these horrible times. I would rather die than see 6 billion people die.

-Father Torque

Pedantic
03-13-2003, 02:04 AM
Wow, I didn't know so many people liked Bush here. :) Well, I would be one of his supporters here, and come the next presidental election, he's getting my vote. :)

Father Torque
03-13-2003, 02:07 AM
I vote YES for bush in 2004:D

Hei s a great president and i will hope to see him as President come next election. I hope Al doesnt run. Now he is a bonehead.

RoguePhotonic
03-13-2003, 02:22 AM
America home of the BRAVE

I'm not gonna start any fight but I have to say that this statement is probably the worst I have ever heard.......

Pedantic
03-13-2003, 02:26 AM
Originally posted by RoguePhotonic
I'm not gonna start any fight but I have to say that this statement is probably the worst I have ever heard.......

It might help if you could elaborate as to why you feel that way. :)

Luc Solar
03-13-2003, 03:30 AM
Oh FFS!

You Americans really need to stop talking about stuff like Bravery, Honor, Freedom etc.

We all got that. Every country has the bravest most honourable soldiers. We all got "freedom".

Just please stop already. It sounds so silly.

America is a country filled with normal people. You are not more handsome, more beautiful, more talented, wiser or intelligent than the rest of the civilized world.

And if you talk about "honor", why not visit...Japan for instance and then talk about your superhuman "honor" with or without the "u".

News flash: While you bask in the glory of the greatness of your people and country, the rest of the world thinks of Americans as nothing but Arrogant, Dumb and Fat.

Don't get me wrong: that's not an insult, that is the stereotype.


EDIT: quoting ET Warrior: (hope you don't mind..)

I personally think that a LOT of the world's problems today are direct results of nationalism. People are too proud of their country and their country is more important than other countries.

RoguePhotonic
03-13-2003, 04:28 AM
Originally posted by Pedantic
It might help if you could elaborate as to why you feel that way. :)

Because America has proven that it's full of nothing but pathetic cowards...and most other country's are brave as ****...

Darth Groovy
03-13-2003, 04:47 AM
Frankly the boy scares me. I had a bad vibe about him from the beginning, which is why I voted against him. He got elected, and he was willing to work with the democrats, so I decided to give him a fair chance. After all, being a veteran, I tend to respect our chief in charge regardless of who or what he is. I do however feel sorry for him having to deal with waiting for months to find out if he was elected and then the shortly after... 9/11. No leader should ever have to endure that, ever...

It seems rather comical that we found more fault in Bill Clinton's sex life, than that of Bush, who has been convicted of DUI's. I guess sex in the oval office is considered worse than getting behind the wheel under the influence... ahh, standards.... Yet the media just can't seem to dig up any dirt on GeeDubya, it fanct they make him look like the modern day John Wayne. This just goes to emphasize that the media itself is a tool to the republican party. I have experienced this first hand.

His solutions to the economy, leave much left to be desired. Here, have $300 of the $3000 you gave us last year and go out and buy something.... what? Gasoline?!?! All he has done is shuffle funds around and make avarage person think they are getting something.... when all we are really getting is a climbing unemployment rate. And when the unemployment rate increases, so does crime. The real war folks is on American soil, but noooooooo let's have a go at those Iraqis which brings me to my next point:

His foreign policy is horrible, he treats the middle east as if it was a right wing protest. The middle east has been killing each other for years, I GUARENTEE they are ready for us, and I am certain that Saddam Has a surprise for us.

I really don't see how going after Saddam Hussein is going to solve anything. Iraq is a country full of young people who fire an AK-47 before they learn to ride a bicycle. I agree the guy should be removed, but then what? Do we decide who the next leader is? Do we take it upon ourselves to correct years worth of economic and social damage the country has evolved into? I try to look at this from the long term aspect. The way I see it, we should not go at Iraq alone. Also, the more he challanges allied countries with this "with me or against me" attitude of his, the more respect I loose for him.

Please do not insult me for my opinions, but I do not support Bush, I still feel deep down he is wanting to finish what his father started, and I don't feel he is working to avoid war, he believes that war is the only solution, and in my opinion, war is never a solution, only a tragic ending. But then again, how can the former governor of the death penalty capitol of the US possibley be concerned about the loss of civillian lives?

Oh yeah and ladies and gentlemen.... I give you our president:

http://chadsux.com/binocs_bc.jpg

Now you really want this man to lead us to war? Not me, but I bet he would make a great talk show host.

_DG

swphreak
03-13-2003, 07:00 AM
DG, I heard that photo was fake, but not sure. And I've seen that before a looong time ago.

I guess he's ok. I don't know if I support support him, but he's our president. You people who voted put him there. If you don't like him, why don't you vote him out of office or something?

And like Luc says. Too much nationalism is bad. We weren't the only ones hurt in 9/11. Other countries were hurt too. their people were killed too. Why are we still making a fuss over it? The other countries have stopped making a fuss over it. We should still go after Osama and kick his ass for what he did, but let it go.

And I agree that Japan could argue that's "honor" is better than ours, and I'd believe them.....

but Bush is our president, and may god be wth us all......

ckcsaber
03-13-2003, 07:26 AM
Originally posted by Luc Solar

News flash: While you bask in the glory of the greatness of your people and country, the rest of the world thinks of Americans as nothing but Arrogant, Dumb and Fat.



They are jealous. Our country is better off than theirs, plain and simple. And if they think Americans as a whole are dumb, they are in for a suprise!

greedo626
03-13-2003, 07:35 AM
first of all, I support my country and its government. I have no special affection for Bush but he is my president. and while I may disagree with some of the things he did/is doing/will do, I still support him more than I don't.

secondly: Originally posted by Darth Groovy
http://chadsux.com/binocs_bc.jpg

I wish people would stop showing this picture and saying "there, you see? Bush is a idiot and he doesn't know the difference between having the lense caps on or off." well I've got news for you, Bush has x-ray vision. and he used that vision to look into Saddam's soul. and Saddam's soul is... evil:devscare:

seriously though, he put the binoculars up to his eye's, realized the lense caps were on, and took them off. someone just snapped a photo just as they got to his eyes.

Luc Solar
03-13-2003, 07:51 AM
Originally posted by ckcsaber
They are jealous. Our country is better off than theirs, plain and simple.

Ermm... yeah...ok...whatever. :rolleyes:

I happen to live in a country where health care is free, schools are free and the social security system is top of the world.

The world economic forum just chose Finland as the most advanced information society. (USA is second, Singapore and Sweden 3rd and 4th.)

We don't have ridiculous lawsuits. We don't have crime. We don't have drugs. We don't have terrorists. We don't have corruption. (the same goes pretty much for the whole Scandinavia)

I can not think of a single reason why I'd be jealous of Americans. (apart from the fact that as a lawyer I would surely make tons of money there :D )

But since you were surely only kidding, I have no need to rant on. ;)

Btw. The "dumb fat and arrogant"-stereotype is something that will not likely fade away as long as Mr. Bush is president.

Oh-oh! Can I add one more? --> Arrogant, Dumb, Fat and Superficial! :D

Please do not think I'm insulting anyone. Think of my post as if it was just another blonde-joke.


Ps. How do you get an one-armed blonde down from a tree?
Answer: By waving to her. :D

Mex
03-13-2003, 08:33 AM
Originally posted by TheHobGoblin
America home of the BRAVE

Sorry, but that is so untrue.
I live in the UK and I don't post threads about Tony Blair and that I think that the UK is the best country in the world do I? So why should you.

Mex
03-13-2003, 08:39 AM
Originally posted by ckcsaber
They are jealous. Our country is better off than theirs, plain and simple. And if they think Americans as a whole are dumb, they are in for a suprise!

That is not true, I don't know why some of you Americans think you are special for living in America, I could go move over there if I wanted, and I wouldnt like I can flame any person here.

By the way, I said some, that means not all of you.

griff38
03-13-2003, 09:11 AM
Grrrrrrrr

George bush is at best the most un-elected president this nation has ever had. At worst he is an illegal president handed the most powerful position ever held by a single human being by appointed officals. The truth is likely somewhere in between.

I do no not support bush, he makes me ashamed to be a U.S. citizen. He does not represent U.S. citizens, he represents the rich and powerful buisnesses that he is part of.
I could go on & on about how his low brow, provencial, black & white "yer with us or against us!" attititude is demeaning to the office he holds but i won't here 2day.

It never ceases to amaze me how armchair warriors like him (he never servered in the military) are ready to send us to fight for their personal interest. It is in the interest of weapons manufactures & oil companies that we are going to Iraq.
If you think it has anything to do with WMD you really are misinformed. Back before the Gulf war, Bush Sr. said Iraq was the 4th most powerful military in the world, and we smacked them down without even trying. They have yet to get back on their feet. Iraq has never been a threat to the United States. Its's a pathetic joke to pretend they are.

LUC SOLAR, please let me apologize for the insults some of my fellow U.S. citizens have hurled your way. Trust me, their are tons of us who know the countless contributions France has given the human race, and glad they are resisting bushes tyranny.
OK, just getting warmed up. But i have a busy day so I will let some REAL Presidents tell you like it is.

Washington, Jefferson, Madison & Monroe are rolling in their graves.

QUOTES FROM REAL PRESIDENTS

The essence of Government is power; and power, lodged as it must be in human hands, will ever be liable to abuse.
James Madison


The means of defense against foreign danger historically have become the instruments of tyranny at home.
James Madison


The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted.
James Madison

Preparation for war is a constant stimulus to suspicion and ill will.
James Monroe

All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to = remain silent.
Thomas Jefferson


War is an instrument entirely inefficient toward redressing wrong; and multiplies, instead of indemnifying losses.
Thomas Jefferson

ckcsaber
03-13-2003, 09:23 AM
Jeez, I don't want this to turn into a flame war, so i'll just say this.

I love America, and all of you badmouthing it are just looking at if from the outside.

griff38
03-13-2003, 09:39 AM
Originally posted by ckcsaber
Jeez, I don't want this to turn into a flame war, so i'll just say this.

I love America, and all of you badmouthing it are just looking at if from the outside.



I live in Florida dude, last time i checked that was part of the U.S.

and I do not consider anything i said as a flame, but instead a heat shield against unfair U.S. bullies.

swphreak
03-13-2003, 09:43 AM
I agree with saber on that.

Breton
03-13-2003, 10:32 AM
Originally posted by Father Torque
You have to realize that He has to think not only about America but the whole world.

He doesn't give a damn about the rest of the world, just listen to his speeches.

What do people mean when they say "There is no evidence on any weapons in Iraq. 17 empty nuclear warheads found.

Riiiight...hasn't been found any nuclear warheads in Iraq as far as I or anyone except you can recall. If you rather belive your silly little president than the weapon inspectors who says themselves that they haven't found any WoMDs in Iraq, then that's your problem.

. Look at you guys you sit at your computer all day at a forum which will never have you succed to anything. You have no responsiblity. He has to handle Millions of people.

1. I do have some responsiblity.
2. Who cares if he has to handle millions of people as long as he stinks at it?

Do you think he wants war. NO of course not,

:rofl: He has been pushing for war all the time, and shows himself as not the slightest interested in peace.

but its the only way out of this terrorism mess

Terrorists cannot be fought with bombs, bombs will only make them more angry and more people.

Ahhhhhhhh he hates america.

A lot of people does, because of people like Bush.

But when ya think about it, how did we become a nation. Britan didnt just say ok sure that cool. There was WAR.

And does that make you braver than the 150+ other countries that had to fight to be a nation? And you would've been slaughtered without the French at your side anyway.

You have to go through pain sometimes to get what you want.

But a war with Iraq will only cause more pain, I am suprised how few have managed to see this.

Also would you rather have the USA die and have your 2 friends live or have America 600+ million people live and have 2 friends risk there lives

Right now Saddam is not a direct threat against US. He's not dumb enough to attack you. You are assuming too much and you're defidently overestimating Saddam.

or have America 600+ million people live

Slept through the geography classes, di yeh? There are only about 280 million people in US. I'm suprised you didn't know that...well, not that suprised.

He is an impecable president and i dont think ANYONE can give me an INTELEGENT reason on why he is a bad president.

Perhaps because you won't listen to them. I can give you some:

-He uses bribes and threats to get votes in the security council

-He still belives in good and evil

-He threathens France and UN for not agreeing with him 100%

-He doesn't like gun control, even though the lack of it is killing over 11,000 people each year.

-He belives Americans are more worth than other people.

-Saddam offers to debate with him, but Bush refuses. There you see how "brave" your president is.

-Bush also doesn't bother to try debating with France.

-He says "Iraq has WoMDs" even though there is no proof they have.

-"War on terrorism"

Now I've given you lots of reasons on why he's a bad president, so perhaps you might give me a few on why he is a good president...if you can, that is.

And also if youre so intelegent and old and mature why cant you face up to the fact that just because your friends are on the frontline and were sending them to Iraq to save a WHOLE other people are BAD.

You are truly overestimating Saddam.

If i had a dear friend on the frontline i would be supporting him, not moaning about YOU. Thats all it is its about YOU and YOUR fellings noby elses. People like you make me disgusted.


Do you care anything about other countries than your own? I just don't get why we would have to go to war now anyway, I mean, Saddam is disarming after all, isn't he? It can take some months to disarm him fully, but that's worth it.

Why dont you get off you're but enroll and save a country. Your friends and others have a better chance of dying if we go to war. If no war. Sadam will nuke us all kill 6 billion people and the earth will be no more. Are you willing to distor gods great creation for your benefit i hope not. Also im underaged, but i sure as hell would support my country in these horrible times. I would rather die than see 6 billion people die.

If I were you, I'd put more attention to this conflict, it does not seem you know very much about it. Saddam does not have nukes, and even if he had, he wouldn't be dumb enough to use them, unless you make him do it, wich you can simply do by going to war with him. You seem to think Saddam is going to be the end of the world if we don't stop him, and that's, soory to say it, BS.

i'll bet the public doesn't know 1/100th of the stuff that G.W. knows about the situation in Iraq,

But if so, why doesn't he tell about this to UN? To the security council? To the weapon inspectors?

And i'll tell you mr ep2 anakin, NONE OF US WANT WAR. BUSH doesn't want war. But it's GOING TO HAPPEN.

Bush is one of the few who actually wants war. He says he doesn't, and that's probably why you belive him. But I beg you not to look at his words, but to look at his actions. He didn't like weapon inspectors in the first place, and has alway been obsessed with telling everyone how evil Saddam is and that the only way to disarm him is through war.

Exactly, ET. Those men and women joined the military for a reason. They volunteered to defend my country. They weren't pulled form there homes at gunpoint and shipped over there.

What has this to do with defending your country? If you didn't know it, they are going to attack, not defend.

You're talking as if anybody who supports the war is either immature or hasn't stopped to think this out. Which is, ironically, not well thought out. I'm sure there are people like that but many of us are not that way.

There are dumb people at both sides.

And I don't care if you have very strong opinions about these matters. Many of us do but we don't get immature about it. You will respect your fellow members of this forum or your opinion is not going to be heard here at all.

I do notice that you haven't commented the imatureness or certain other posts, wich suspiciously are supporting Bush...though Anakin's post was slightly immature too.

They are jealous. Our country is better off than theirs, plain and simple.

Ok....:rolleyes:

I love America, and all of you badmouthing it are just looking at if from the outside.

But what you fail to realise is that we're not badmouthing the country, but the goverment. And don't say that's the same thing, because it isn't, far from it.

America home of the BRAVE

:lol: Funny. Not saying more than that.

Nitro
03-13-2003, 11:04 AM
I'm a Canadian Army Reservist. My unit was activated and put on alert, meaning my ass will most likely be on the line when we go in. I don't have a death wish, but I support this war with every bone in my body. Saddam needs gone. His party needs gone. I don't care if he does disarm... The bastard kills more civillians in a day than we ever would if we invaded.

Iraq needs a new government, and no amount of destroyed weapons will change that, and I'm proud as hell to be a part of making Iraq a better place to live.

greedo626
03-13-2003, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by Nitro
I'm a Canadian Army Reservist. My unit was activated and put on alert, meaning my ass will most likely be on the line when we go in. I don't have a death wish, but I support this war with every bone in my body. Saddam needs gone. His party needs gone. I don't care if he does disarm... The bastard kills more civillians in a day than we ever would if we invaded.

Iraq needs a new government, and no amount of destroyed weapons will change that, and I'm proud as hell to be a part of making Iraq a better place to live.

holy crap:eek: , a Canadian that supports a war with Iraq :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: . now I really have seen everything:D.

Bob Gnarly
03-13-2003, 11:34 AM
i dont support any of this, because firsy of all my grand parents live in syria which is right beside iraq and second because George Bush has a stuped idea in his head that America owns the whole world, if you've ever seen the music video in a world called catastrophe then thats excactly what i feel, if you support him today for oil! tomorrow he'll be after china for........sushi!?!

El Sitherino
03-13-2003, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by ckcsaber
Jeez, I don't want this to turn into a flame war, so i'll just say this.

I love America, and all of you badmouthing it are just looking at if from the outside. im an american citizen and i dislike america just as much as the others so.... BLEAH! and that image that groovy showed isnt a fake it was in the newspapers a few weeks ago here in my city(i guess they didnt notice) i dislike all of bush's plans, hes screwing up the economy by doing his shuffling of money and his foreign policy is CRAP.

-s/<itzo-
03-13-2003, 12:02 PM
The elimination of the "evil-doers" is a must.

swphreak
03-13-2003, 12:07 PM
If you thinkk Bush is a bad President, Why don't you vote him out or whatever crap voters can do?

-s/<itzo-
03-13-2003, 12:17 PM
Originally posted by StarWarsPhreak
If you thinkk Bush is a bad President, Why don't you vote him out or whatever crap voters can do?

Who are you refering to...?

TK-99
03-13-2003, 12:27 PM
all this war crap is sounding alot like that movie called ''Hot Shots 2'' lol, still im not supportinganyone here because ill ask this ''Douse anybody want World War III to happen?'' and if america douse attack iraq who knows they might attack america back too

KOTOR*KAMA
03-13-2003, 12:31 PM
man america isnt gona be along much longer cuz we are matched this time but i guess i will have to step in wiht my light saber hahahaa

ckcsaber
03-13-2003, 12:33 PM
America plans to take Iraq out completly. They will not leave Iraq behind with any form of retaliation.

swphreak
03-13-2003, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by -s/<itzo-
Who are you refering to...?

I was referring to all the US voters that oppose Bush

Darth Groovy
03-13-2003, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by greedo626
first of all, I support my country and its government. I have no special affection for Bush but he is my president. and while I may disagree with some of the things he did/is doing/will do, I still support him more than I don't.

secondly:
I wish people would stop showing this picture and saying "there, you see? Bush is a idiot and he doesn't know the difference between having the lense caps on or off." well I've got news for you, Bush has x-ray vision. and he used that vision to look into Saddam's soul. and Saddam's soul is... evil:devscare:

seriously though, he put the binoculars up to his eye's, realized the lense caps were on, and took them off. someone just snapped a photo just as they got to his eyes.

Riiiiiiiiiight, and I surpose he's going to use his spider senses to win one for the good old red white and blue.....

I never said he was an idiot, but he is wreckless. A loose cannon if you will, and his blatent disregaurd for countries who oppose his plans for war, cannot and simply will not be ignored.

About the pic....hey they picked apart Bill Clinton's life with an electron microscope, wether it was a mistake or not, all is fair in love and war. When your president, you are in the lime light, candidates know this when they run for office. But I am not as concerned about the pic, as I am about his cowboy attitude towards the middle east.America plans to take Iraq out completly. They will not leave Iraq behind with any form of retaliation.

And judging how my country has acted in the past, we will probably also leave them with no leadership, government or supplies of any kind. We will just go in with guns a blazin' bomb the bejeezus out of them and let them pic through the cinders and put their own lifes back together in the name of freedom. The civillians in Iraq will suffer as well......

war....

*shakes head and walks away*

ckcsaber
03-13-2003, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by Darth Groovy
And judging how my country has acted in the past, we will probably also leave them with no leadership, government or supplies of any kind. We will just go in with guns a blazin' bomb the bejeezus out of them and let them pic through the cinders and put their own lifes back together in the name of freedom. The civillians in Iraq will suffer as well......


The UN is trying to figure that part out, but the US is just disarming

Breton
03-13-2003, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by StarWarsPhreak
If you thinkk Bush is a bad President, Why don't you vote him out or whatever crap voters can do?

If I could, I would. But I'm neither an US citizen nor old enough to vote.

{BK}SupremePain
03-13-2003, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by ckcsaber
They are jealous. Our country is better off than theirs, plain and simple. And if they think Americans as a whole are dumb, they are in for a suprise!
LMAO:eek: you think America is a rich country? i dont have any problem with Americans but i do with the american system... and as for Bush: the apple dosent fall far from the tree, his father made the people of Iraq rebel againts Saddam, he promised to back them up, but what did he do? he bailed on them and Saddam Hussein slaugthered them for betraying him, Bush is in my opinion not fit as a preisedent at all... i agree with that Saddam needs to be stopped but launching a war is not the awnser, WAR IS NEVER THE AWNSER.... many innocent civilience will die, i am proud of Germany and France and other countrys that says no to help Bush out in the war, my own country (Denmark) supports Bush in the war

obi
03-13-2003, 04:23 PM
I've read some posts in here that I didn't really care for, but let me say this as a general statement:

America is a world power, like it or not. We have been for over 100 years.

America sure has had somethings in it's past, put we are not the only ones. Want to critisize someone's past? Go to Britain, they are full of it. (past events, that is)

I myself, choose not to look at the past to critisize, but instead to learn from.

Now, I love being in America, because here, I have many opporotunities (sp?) to do things that in other countries I could not. Go read a Bible over in some middle-eastern country. Read it in public. I dare you.

If you want to say something bad about AMERICA, then you are dead wrong. Saying something about the government is different. Don't bash the country, or else you are just bashing the people that live in it.

There, I feel better now. :)

ckcsaber
03-13-2003, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by obi-wan13
I've read some posts in here that I didn't really care for, but let me say this as a general statement:

America is a world power, like it or not. We have been for over 100 years.

America sure has had somethings in it's past, put we are not the only ones. Want to critisize someone's past? Go to Britain, they are full of it. (past events, that is)

I myself, choose not to look at the past to critisize, but instead to learn from.

Now, I love being in America, because here, I have many opporotunities (sp?) to do things that in other countries I could not. Go read a Bible over in some middle-eastern country. Read it in public. I dare you.

If you want to say something bad about AMERICA, then you are dead wrong. Saying something about the government is different. Don't bash the country, or else you are just bashing the people that live in it.

There, I feel better now. :)


:clap2:

Bravo. I feel the same way Obi

{BK}SupremePain
03-13-2003, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by obi-wan13
I've read some posts in here that I didn't really care for, but let me say this as a general statement:

America is a world power, like it or not. We have been for over 100 years.

America sure has had somethings in it's past, put we are not the only ones. Want to critisize someone's past? Go to Britain, they are full of it. (past events, that is)

I myself, choose not to look at the past to critisize, but instead to learn from.

Now, I love being in America, because here, I have many opporotunities (sp?) to do things that in other countries I could not. Go read a Bible over in some middle-eastern country. Read it in public. I dare you.

If you want to say something bad about AMERICA, then you are dead wrong. Saying something about the government is different. Don't bash the country, or else you are just bashing the people that live in it.

There, I feel better now. :)
ARRGGHHH! this is anoying i REALY dont hope this the typical americans opinion.... is it?

obi
03-13-2003, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by {BK}SupremePain
ARRGGHHH! this is anoying i REALY dont hope this the typical americans opinion.... is it?

How in the wide world of sports is that annoying?

Ok, I'm going to bash everyone that lives in your country.


I hope you idiots go and have fun doing idiotic things. I hope you idiots jump off of a cliff and die.

THAT is annoying, and THAT is like stuff I have read, and I was directing my message to people who were bashing America as a whole.

Tell me how my message was annoying.

C'jais
03-13-2003, 04:41 PM
Originally posted by obi-wan13
If you want to say something bad about AMERICA, then you are dead wrong.

When we're talking about America's actions, we're not talking about what Joe did to his lawn mower at the latest barbeque - we're talking about the nation's actions on a global scale. IE, what the government is doing.

Don't bash the country, or else you are just bashing the people that live in it.

Country and people is not the same thing.

ckcsaber
03-13-2003, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by C'jais
When we're talking about America's actions, we're not talking about what Joe did to his lawn mower at the latest barbeque - we're talking about the nation's actions on a global scale. IE, what the government is doing.


The government is doing what it has to do.

obi
03-13-2003, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by C'jais
When we're talking about America's actions, we're not talking about what Joe did to his lawn mower at the latest barbeque - we're talking about the nation's actions on a global scale. IE, what the government is doing.


Country and people is not the same thing.


I have this thing when I see "America did soandso," or "America didn't do soandso," or "America did soandso too much," or "America didn't do soandso enough," that they are talking about the country as a whole, including the people on my block, and the people the next town over, etc. I guess it's just a stupid mindset I have, but it's just one of those things that gets my goat. But if someone is talking about government actions, please state so......I have no problem with government-bashing. If I did, I would be going against the constitution, the foundation upon which this country was made.

Imo, the people make the country. If we(the ordinary citizens) weren't here, it's just be a bunch of guys in suits running around.

Breton
03-13-2003, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by ckcsaber
The government is doing what it has to do.

The US goverment don't have to attack him. Keep the military pressure at him and make him disarm peacfully. They have already started doing that, so I ask you: What is the point of war then?

I have this thing when I see "America did soandso," or "America didn't do soandso," or "America did soandso too much," or "America didn't do soandso enough," that they are talking about the country as a whole, including the people on my block, and the people the next town over, etc. I guess it's just a stupid mindset I have, but it's just one of those things that gets my goat. But if someone is talking about government actions, please state so......I have no problem with government-bashing. If I did, I would be going against the constitution, the foundation upon which this country was made.

It has always been so in political coherence (is that the right word to use?) that when you talk about a country, you mean their goverment. Such as "North Korea revives it's nuclear program", then you do not talk about the people, but the goverment. Or "Switzerland was neutral in WW2", then you don't talk about the people, but the goverment. Or "Norway bans smoking", you still don't talk about the people, but the goverment. So if I say that I think USA's foreign politics are pretty bad, then I do not mean, nor thinks, that each single American is pretty bad on dealing with foreign countries, I talk about the goverment.

Darth Groovy
03-13-2003, 06:11 PM
Well I don't personally feel that I am bashing my country. I question the actions of our president, who is what this thread was about last time I checked. Sorry if I came off as being to critical. I love the USA, I will never leave, I have and will defend it again if need be, but it is also my right as a registered voter(and veteran of the United States Armed Forces) to question the actions of our president. Lately I think he is only making himself look bad in the eyes of other nations.

obi
03-13-2003, 06:25 PM
I wasn't talking about you Groovy. ;)



As I said, critisizing the government is different from critisizing the people in the country. You believe that Bush is doing wrong, and you supported your belief with numerous examples. You did nothing wrong. ;)

ckcsaber
03-13-2003, 07:02 PM
Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn

The US goverment don't have to attack him. Keep the military pressure at him and make him disarm peacfully.


What do you think the US has been doing the past 10 years!!

Father Torque
03-13-2003, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by Luc Solar
Oh FFS!

You Americans really need to stop talking about stuff like Bravery, Honor, Freedom etc.

We all got that. Every country has the bravest most honourable soldiers. We all got "freedom".

Just please stop already. It sounds so silly.

America is a country filled with normal people. You are not more handsome, more beautiful, more talented, wiser or intelligent than the rest of the civilized world.

And if you talk about "honor", why not visit...Japan for instance and then talk about your superhuman "honor" with or without the "u".

News flash: While you bask in the glory of the greatness of your people and country, the rest of the world thinks of Americans as nothing but Arrogant, Dumb and Fat.

Don't get me wrong: that's not an insult, that is the stereotype.


EDIT: quoting ET Warrior: (hope you don't mind..)

Well Luc Solar. I am gonna say this in a nice way since you stated your opinion in a nice manner. America had to fight a great war against the British army in the 1770's. Honer, Bravery, and freedom are all the qualities of America. We have immendments, a decleration of independence, and many other freedom codes. We are free to have any religion we want. We have the right to practice any religion we see fit. Many other countries have that right too. Also look at Afghanistan before we went in there and captured Taliban soldiers. The Afghanistan people have very little freedom. We were brave in the 1770's to stand up to a massive and outnumbering army of trained, armed, and nicely treeted soldiers. We had too fight thousands of British soldiers to earn freedom. And i dont thin kyou realize how important these qualities are too us. We are proud of these things. Also Bravery. Look at the firemen and police officers and other Americans who went in and risked there lives to save INNOCENT PEOPLE from dying in a tragic and sad event. I dont know if you Euoropeans, or wherever youre from care very much. But those 2 towers were like Egypts pyrimids, Frances' Eifel Tower, Pisa Leaning tower of Pisa, Australlias Great Barrier Reef, China Great Wall, South Americas great Amazon, Canadas National Tower in Toronto. These are all important landmarks. 3000 fellow americans were killed how would you fell if 3000 of youre people died 1 including your best friends grandparents. What about Americas great depression in 1929. People had to be brave, they had to live on the street, eat bread 1 time a day. They were dirt poor. But look at all these other countries did they help us in anyway No, they werent honorable they were the ones being arrogant, fat and dumb. Then soon following Pearl Harber 2000+ are killed. We had to send soldiers into Japan. On the frontline, they knew they would die. You dont thin kthey were brave, you have a nother thing coming. Now all im trying to say is that other countries should stop bugging on us. No offense but America is the the greatest country in the world. We have the money, technology, military, and pride then most other countries. We are just like Rome was they were great for thousands of years. Why isnt it fair for america to be powerful too. And yes we can be selfish sometimes, but that doesnt mean all Americans are thick headed. you guys need to stop bugging us and try to support our decision. It is not our war but we play a major part in it. And all you non war people arent gonna change anything. You would be of more help if you supported our and UN troops instead of whinning and groning about them dying. it was there decision to join and they know the consequinces. They chose to fight for freedom. Honor. And Liberty. i dont agree with War but the only way to win sometimes is to fight, this is no time for using words because they dont work in these large circumstances. Either do peace treatys. All they would do right now is make America and the UN nations think that were on good turms, they would catch us off guard and kill innocent civilians. I love too share my opinion and i hope you will too. If you disagree with me, reply and or PM on your decision.


EDIT: I just saw something on the nes. Venders arent gonna sell french fries anymore, they are gonna be freedom fries. I am not bying anything french for awhile they are being p****'s. And one more thing war sometimes is the answer. Also Bush senior never did that stuff about abbandoning Iraqians. Thats just a made up rumor that you and your little friends made up to make people beleive in crap like that. He did not desert them. They chose to join Sadam, he chose not to have war. And yes why dont you perfect englishmen and whatnot go to Iraq or Afghanistan and read the bible. In some places in Asia they cut of your hands for eating gum, and if you litter they will cut of your ear. In America people can read a Bible anywhere they want. I mean i read the bible at school, try doing that anywhere else.

El Sitherino
03-13-2003, 07:13 PM
Originally posted by ckcsaber
What do you think the US has been doing the past 10 years!! they havent been doing anything with him instead theyve been all over palestine and kuwait, places they dont need to be.

ckcsaber
03-13-2003, 07:26 PM
The Gulf War


Originally posted by Father Torque
Well Luc Solar. I am gonna say this in a nice way since you stated your opinion in a nice manner. America had to fight a great war against the British army in the 1770's. Honer, Bravery, and freedom are all the qualities of America. We have immendments, a decleration of independence, and many other freedom codes. We are free to have any religion we want. We have the right to practice any religion we see fit. Many other countries have that right too. Also look at Afghanistan before we went in there and captured Taliban soldiers. The Afghanistan people have very little freedom. We were brave in the 1770's to stand up to a massive and outnumbering army of trained, armed, and nicely treeted soldiers. We had too fight thousands of British soldiers to earn freedom. And i dont thin kyou realize how important these qualities are too us. We are proud of these things. Also Bravery. Look at the firemen and police officers and other Americans who went in and risked there lives to save INNOCENT PEOPLE from dying in a tragic and sad event. I dont know if you Euoropeans, or wherever youre from care very much. But those 2 towers were like Egypts pyrimids, Frances' Eifel Tower, Pisa Leaning tower of Pisa, Australlias Great Barrier Reef, China Great Wall, South Americas great Amazon, Canadas National Tower in Toronto. These are all important landmarks. 3000 fellow americans were killed how would you fell if 3000 of youre people died 1 including your best friends grandparents. What about Americas great depression in 1929. People had to be brave, they had to live on the street, eat bread 1 time a day. They were dirt poor. But look at all these other countries did they help us in anyway No, they werent honorable they were the ones being arrogant, fat and dumb. Then soon following Pearl Harber 2000+ are killed. We had to send soldiers into Japan. On the frontline, they knew they would die. You dont thin kthey were brave, you have a nother thing coming. Now all im trying to say is that other countries should stop bugging on us. No offense but America is the the greatest country in the world. We have the money, technology, military, and pride then most other countries. We are just like Rome was they were great for thousands of years. Why isnt it fair for america to be powerful too. And yes we can be selfish sometimes, but that doesnt mean all Americans are thick headed. you guys need to stop bugging us and try to support our decision. It is not our war but we play a major part in it. And all you non war people arent gonna change anything. You would be of more help if you supported our and UN troops instead of whinning and groning about them dying. it was there decision to join and they know the consequinces. They chose to fight for freedom. Honor. And Liberty. i dont agree with War but the only way to win sometimes is to fight, this is no time for using words because they dont work in these large circumstances. Either do peace treatys. All they would do right now is make America and the UN nations think that were on good turms, they would catch us off guard and kill innocent civilians. I love too share my opinion and i hope you will too. If you disagree with me, reply and or PM on your decision.



You really are right. Bravo Torque

Reborn Outcast
03-13-2003, 07:30 PM
Ok wow. :D I got here a little late but I read all the posts and heres what I have to say...

I am a firm supporter in Bush. Wanna know why? 4 words...

He is not conformist.

Thats right. He doesn't try to impress people or agree to whatever they say because he doesn't want them to hate him. He does what he thinks is right and I respect him for that. If this whole thing gets screwed up because of him... well then I say good 1 term and I hope you get a lot of Secret Service agents to guard you. If Saddam gets overthrown and Iraq becomes a democracy then there are going to be a lot of people feeling a little stupid. Definately those who didn't want him to do it in the first place.

This is in response to those who hate America or Bush so it seems and they actually live in this country. Show some respect please. You have to admit, that guy has some balls to do what hes doing right now. He's going against the wishes of over half the world. I would bet my life that none of you could do that against such odds. So show a little respect. He IS our President whether we like it or not and hes doing what a President should be doing by addressing these world issues be it the right way or not.

The US has been patiently waiting for Saddam to do something or step down or go into self-exile for around a DECADE now. As has been shown, he is NOT going to do it. This "war" has grown over the fact that Iraq may have nuclear weapons or weapons of mass destruction, its grown to encompass the fact that he is cruel, heartless and a dictator by all means. Do you know some of his methods for testing his regime's loyalty? He sends masked men dressed in the clothes that his enemies wear, put the man at gunpoint and ask one simple question. "Are you with us?" If by fear the guys says "Yes" thinking that its Saddam's enemies talking, they shoot him. He also has "acid drip" rooms in which slow drops of acid drop down and the person has to keep constantly moving back and forth. Soon they get tired collapse and die by acid. Sounds nice huh? And he does this to his own people. This is why he should be gone.

Just my $0.02

Father Torque
03-13-2003, 07:38 PM
Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
Ok wow. :D I got here a little late but I read all the posts and heres what I have to say...

I am a firm supporter in Bush. Wanna know why? 4 words...

He is not conformist.

Thats right. He doesn't try to impress people or agree to whatever they say because he doesn't want them to hate him. He does what he thinks is right and I respect him for that. If this whole thing gets screwed up because of him... well then I say good 1 term and I hope you get a lot of Secret Service agents to guard you. If Saddam gets overthrown and Iraq becomes a democracy then there are going to be a lot of people feeling a little stupid. Definately those who didn't want him to do it in the first place.

This is in response to those who hate America or Bush so it seems and they actually live in this country. Show some respect please. You have to admit, that guy has some balls to do what hes doing right now. He's going against the wishes of over half the world. I would bet my life that none of you could do that against such odds. So show a little respect. He IS our President whether we like it or not and hes doing what a President should be doing by addressing these world issues be it the right way or not.

The US has been patiently waiting for Saddam to do something or step down or go into self-exile for around a DECADE now. As has been shown, he is NOT going to do it. This "war" has grown over the fact that Iraq may have nuclear weapons or weapons of mass destruction, its grown to encompass the fact that he is cruel, heartless and a dictator by all means. Do you know some of his methods for testing his regime's loyalty? He sends masked men dressed in the clothes that his enemies wear, put the man at gunpoint and ask one simple question. "Are you with us?" If by fear the guys says "Yes" thinking that its Saddam's enemies talking, they shoot him. He also has "acid drip" rooms in which slow drops of acid drop down and the person has to keep constantly moving back and forth. Soon they get tired collapse and die by acid. Sounds nice huh? And he does this to his own people. This is why he should be gone.

Just my $0.02


Greatly said Reborn. Me you ckc obi and otherr bush supporters should form the LF Bush supporters club. yeah:D . What do you think:p

Reborn Outcast
03-13-2003, 07:46 PM
Haha we could. :D It all depends on the reaction we would get. :D

ckcsaber
03-13-2003, 07:52 PM
Not a good one from the looks of it:p

Nitro
03-13-2003, 08:41 PM
I'm with ya! I might not like "Dubya", but I like war with Iraq.

Let's rock and roll.

griff38
03-13-2003, 09:07 PM
Originally posted by {BK}SupremePain
LMAO:eek: you think America is a rich country? i dont have any problem with Americans but i do with the american system... and as for Bush: the apple doesn't fall far from the tree, his father made the people of Iraq rebel againts Saddam, he promised to back them up, but what did he do? he bailed on them and Saddam Hussein slaugthered them for betraying him, Bush is in my opinion not fit as a president at all... i agree with that Saddam needs to be stopped but launching a war is not the awnser, WAR IS NEVER THE AWNSER.... many innocent civilience will die, i am proud of Germany and France and other countrys that says no to help Bush out in the war, my own country (Denmark) supports Bush in the war


YYYEEEHHAAA!!! You go, my brother man! About half of the Citizens of the United States are not informed enough to know about that event or ignore, justify or explain it away.
You see, we citizens of the United States can live in an incredible life with very little effort . The United States is a great place to live and raise a family for most of us. There are so many countless pursuits and endless opportunities of all kinds that it becomes easy to ignore your responsibility to your fellow humans. I know people watch tv and movies all over the world but I think people who has never been to the United States have no concept of how many hours most of us spend in front of the tv. I won't even go into computers and other related technology.

But back to the point I want to make about United States, there are many here who think that somehow we are different, unique, unusually powerful, somehow having more "honor" than people of other nations. They see only the good about ourselves and ignore anyone that might dare for a microsecond say that we are normal like everyone else and may actually do something wrong.

The United States is a Neo-Rome. You can be a stalwart religious zelot, you can become a filthy rich billionare, you can be a decadent no taboo restricted hedonist that would make the Sodomites & Gommorahns blush. But unless you want to, you never have to become adult enough to treat your fellow human being with 10 % of the respect you demand from them.

And for anyone who is about to suggest AGAIN that I should love it or leave it, I'm not going anywhere; I'm staying here and trying to convince you to be fair to EVERYBODY not just "us".

ET Warrior
03-13-2003, 09:12 PM
I'm really tired of people complaining how the US involves itself in other countries affairs when it should keep to itself, and then those SAME people argue that it doesn't matter if it's American lives or Iraqi lives, we're all the same thing.

You're contradicting yourself. If the country you're from doesn't matter, then why does it matter if US tries to help out other oppressed people from getting taken over? Wouldn't it make more sense for the US to get MORE involved in other countries? In an effort to unite the entire world? Or perhaps we should just NOT do anything in other countries EVER, and then everyone can bitch about how the US is so self centered they never leave their own borders :rolleyes:

Weapon X
03-13-2003, 11:51 PM
hey rhett, let me shoot two of your best friends cuz some old guy says so, sounds cool to me.........well, maybe not huh. hobgoblin was calling everyone who doesn't want to go to war crybabies, lets send his teenage ass over there to get shot at, i gurantee he'll change his mind real quick. that's what i'm saying, maybe i shoulda worded it so it was more understandable to what i was saying. but the message is still the same, if you think everyone who opposes war is a crybaby, let me shoot you in the chest and see how bad YOU cry for family, friends, and forgiveness as you slowly accept your unavoidable death, sound good to you? come to wyoming and i'll make it happen. everyone i've talked to does NOT want to go to war and does NOT like bush, this is just redneck wyoming though, we don't matter, oh well, it's just no use trying to explain ANYTHING to the ignorant, i said i would leave, but i just had to come back and keep this debate going cuz it tore at me all day, until you realize that war is the worst thing ever this thread will go on forever and i will start new ones if needed, most everybody here has NOBODY involved in the military, that's why your opinions are different from us who do. you're so ready to send others to their deaths just so you can enjoy low gas prices and "safety" from the "evil" in the world, maybe you should think about EVERYONE instead of just yourselves, sad is what you are

i don't care if my post was "mature" or not, it's what i felt and what i felt people like hobgoblin should do, enjoy editing this one too, if you're gonna

munik
03-14-2003, 12:09 AM
Wyoming is a state? When did this happen? Who let it happen?

Chastan
03-14-2003, 12:14 AM
You know what's hilarious?

How everybody complains about how much scrutiny Clinton came under for the BJ thing....yet nobody complains about how his horrible mis-management of this country hasn't been scrutinized.

And somebody tell me why Bush is an "illegal" president :rolleyes:

ET Warrior
03-14-2003, 12:17 AM
And need we remind you that your friends KNOWINGLY, and INTENTIONALLY joined the military? I mean, service is not forced. I'm not joining the army, and nothing bad will happen to me because of it. Hmmm, military, as defined by dictionary.com..1. Of or pertaining to soldiers, to arms, or to war; belonging to, engaged in, or appropriate to, the affairs of war;

Joining the military means that you have chosen to take part in wars which happen. It's a sad thing, and NOBODY WANTS IT. But sometimes it does happen, and anyone who has the courage and abilities to join the armed services has earned my instant respect. I have family who has been to war. I know it's not pretty. I know people who are in the military, I pray for them. But they joined the military for a reason, and that reason is to protect the free peoples of the world. And now they are being called upon to fulfill that duty. Saddam Hussein, while perhaps not an immediate threat to the world, and certainly not to America at the moment, is still an evil man (even though some say evil doesn't exist) and what he does is wrong and cruel and needs to be stopped. As the most powerful nation in the world I feel it is our duty to stand up and say "enough. you are finished with your evil acts and you will stop, NOW."
maybe you should think about EVERYONE instead of just yourselves, sad is what you are
Maybe you should think about EVERYONE instead of just your friends in the military, selfish is what you are. Saddam Hussein, I believe, would not hesitate to kill MILLIONS to achieve his goals. And those brave people in our military are going, maybe to give their lives, to protect those innocent millions. They will suffer, so others won't have to. And I salute them.

ET Warrior
03-14-2003, 12:28 AM
Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn
The US goverment don't have to attack him. Keep the military pressure at him and make him disarm peacfully.

We've had pressure on him for a decade. After so long of the threat of military, and we never actually do anything military, he's going to realize it's just a bluff. "No, really, we're gonna attack this time if you don't disarm...no, we MEAN it this time...we're not kidding!!!!!" Saddam called our bluff....and now it seems we're going to show him that we were holding a royal flush all along.

(sorry for the poker analogies....i was watching maverick)

Vestril
03-14-2003, 12:58 AM
Ok...wow, a lot of hot feelings going around...

You know what would be really funny? If Saddam abdicated and walked away, said 'I'm tired of this, I will let America install a new government providing it gives me amnesty for any perciveced crimes I have commited' handed over the country, and Bush said 'well ok' took his troops and left.

France and Germany would feel pretty stupid :p. It won't happen, for a lot of reasons, but I was amusing myself thinking about it. Suddenly all around the world Bush's public status would go from 'warmongering hick' to 'visionary peacemaker.'

To the people who have problem with America and Americans...America is the Empire of it's day (not in the SW sense...though some may think so :p) it is the most powerful country in the world. This isn't arrogance, I don't think? In the past this title has been held by other countries, England, France, The Roman Empire, are a few examples. These countries all have a common theme, they were filled with arrogant people. They were filled with arrogant people because they were the most powerful countries in the world. Is America the BEST country in the world, obviously not, that is CLEARLY Canada ;).

The trouble with being the most powerful country in the world, is that other nations tend to be critical...if Finland...for example...were in the hot seat, I have a sneaking suspicion that it wouldn't be doing much better than America. Think of past dominant empire's foreign policies, have they ever been very good? Why not? Possibly because they could get away with bad foreign policy?...

Absolute power corrupts absolutely, is the saying, and I think a lot of power corrupts a lot, as is the case in the US. It's a basically decent country turned askew with the power it holds. Let's face it, if America wants to go to war with Iraq, who is going to stop it? :(

That is why I don't really think that protests and whatnot are particualy constructive, Bush is going to finish his dads war one way or another, so we may as well hold on and hope for the best. And hopefully no one will ever correct me in a McDonalds when I ask for french fries...I envision the scenario thusly:


"...and I'd like french fries with that."

"Actually sir, they're known as liberty fries."

"Wha...."

"French fries are unpatriotic...they're for losers."

*beats clerk with convieniently placed stick*

seriosuly...liberty fries...oi vay...

//edit

err, freedom fries...I was thinking liberty cabbage...(which was real...)

Father Torque
03-14-2003, 01:31 AM
Originally posted by ET Warrior
And need we remind you that your friends KNOWINGLY, and INTENTIONALLY joined the military? I mean, service is not forced. I'm not joining the army, and nothing bad will happen to me because of it. Hmmm, military, as defined by dictionary.com..

Joining the military means that you have chosen to take part in wars which happen. It's a sad thing, and NOBODY WANTS IT. But sometimes it does happen, and anyone who has the courage and abilities to join the armed services has earned my instant respect. I have family who has been to war. I know it's not pretty. I know people who are in the military, I pray for them. But they joined the military for a reason, and that reason is to protect the free peoples of the world. And now they are being called upon to fulfill that duty. Saddam Hussein, while perhaps not an immediate threat to the world, and certainly not to America at the moment, is still an evil man (even though some say evil doesn't exist) and what he does is wrong and cruel and needs to be stopped. As the most powerful nation in the world I feel it is our duty to stand up and say "enough. you are finished with your evil acts and you will stop, NOW."

Maybe you should think about EVERYONE instead of just your friends in the military, selfish is what you are. Saddam Hussein, I believe, would not hesitate to kill MILLIONS to achieve his goals. And those brave people in our military are going, maybe to give their lives, to protect those innocent millions. They will suffer, so others won't have to. And I salute them.


Ya as i said early and you re-quoted. ep2 you are a selfish brat who thinks about 2 people who joined the army to save people unlike you who is sitting where you are. Whining and complaining to a bunch of people who think you are an inmature selfish person. Your opinion isnt even fun to argue about. Why do you thin kthey joined the army ep. Maybe they would rather die for our country instead of moan about YOURSELF. They would rather think about ohhh i may get shot in the chest, but i know im gonna die a hero and a great american. They would rather save 6.4 BILLION people. And wh yare you wuurying about 2. you should be worrying about the 6.4 BILLION people who will die if this war doesnt happen. You got to reach beyond your own world and think about others. Think about all those family's that lost members in 9/11. They were killed by these horrible people. Who ar proud of it. Imagine what they will do next if we dont rid of them. Now if i were like you non-bush people, i would atleast come up with a good excuse why we shouldnt go to war instead of cheesy, random, and totally fake stories about his intellegence level. Also all you people that say Jesus said Thou shalt not kill in the bible, doesnt pretain to anything about this war. It is completely different. War is not murder and to those of you who thin kit is, go back to pre school, because alot of you are acting like 3 year olds. Face up to it, nothing is changing his opinion and nothing will. So why dont you support your friends and send them letters instead of whining about how they might die. If they saw you writing this stuff they would think you were a whimpy selfish person. If they think war is so bad, tell them to resign. Dont make decisions for them. They are deffinrtly more strong mentally than you will ever hope to be

-Father Torque

Luc Solar
03-14-2003, 03:51 AM
I tried to read the earlier posts but there was simply too much ranting and I'm in a hurry anyways, so I'll just say this:

Did you know that when North Korea's president Kim Jong-il went to play golf for the first time in his life, he succeeded in hitting ELEVEN CONSECUTIVE HOLE-IN-ONES!

Think about that for a moment. Eleven. And it was his first time on the green too! :rolleyes:

Seriously: that is a true story. Ask any North Korean.

Also you might want to show some proof about these astoundingly imaginative ways of torturing people with acid (or what not) that Saddam uses.

I bet every Iraqi citizen can top that with stories of dear Mr. Bush.
Did you know Bush sleeps with pythons to which he feeds a little muslim boy every morning? Yeah, it's true. :rolleyes:

You think the US media tells you things exactly how they really happened? Naturally Saddam uses the same method; every single bomb you drop in Iraq hits nothing but innocent women & children.

Imagine if the tables were turned. Iraq being the superpower and you being the ones with a disliked president. That would suck, huh?

ckcsaber
03-14-2003, 07:22 AM
Originally posted by Luc Solar
Imagine if the tables were turned. Iraq being the superpower and you being the ones with a disliked president. That would suck, huh?

If. If. If. IF!

A lot of things will suck when the word IF is used! So whats your point!It would suck if a guy shot me in the leg right now.

America is doing what needs to be done. America has been trying to resolve this peacefully for a long while, but they won't cooperate.

griff38
03-14-2003, 09:50 AM
Originally posted by Father Torque
ep2 you are a selfish brat , Whining and complaining, you are an inmature selfish person. , moan about YOURSELF.

War is not murder and to those of you who thin kit is, go back to pre school, because alot of you are acting like 3 year olds.

whining about how they might die. you were a whimpy selfish person.
-Father Torque

This is the 1rst time i have ever done this and hop it's the last.

father torgue I have reported you to the moderators for violation of the the 1rst rule of conduct forum:

Rules
1. You cannot, in any way, insult (or "flame") someone else on the board. People may not be insulted just because their opinion differs from your own. Flaming includes calling people names,

Thomas Jefferson said, if you are angry count to ten before you speak, if you are very angry count to 100.

Get a grip junior.

POST SCRIPT: I have an idea lets settle this with some TEAM FFA, we all know on which side we would be on.

C'jais
03-14-2003, 09:56 AM
Originally posted by Father Torque
Well Luc Solar. I am gonna say this in a nice way since you stated your opinion in a nice manner.

I'm sick and tired of people telling us that they're going out of their damn way to be nice when adressing us. Thanks a f*cking lot.

We are free to have any religion we want.

And Europe isn't? India isn't? Japan isn't? Russia isn't? Brazil isn't? Nigeria isn't?

Many other countries have that right too.

Thank you. What was your point again?

We were brave in the 1770's to stand up to a massive and outnumbering army of trained, armed, and nicely treeted soldiers.

The Spanish civil war. The French revolution. Tibet vs China. Iran vs Iraq. Scotland vs England. England vs France. Etc etc.

And i dont thin kyou realize how important these qualities are too us. We are proud of these things.

I'll ask you this: Are you implying that we, the Eurotrash, do somehow not possess these qualities? Are you implying that you have these qualities in greater amount than we?

Are you?

What about Americas great depression in 1929. People had to be brave, they had to live on the street, eat bread 1 time a day. They were dirt poor. But look at all these other countries did they help us in anyway No, they werent honorable they were the ones being arrogant, fat and dumb.

Don't talk about something you nothing about.

FYI, your country's depression dragged the rest of the world with it. Unemployment rates in Europe were as yours. Germany had it piss poor - in fact, worse than you.

We have the money, technology, military, and pride then most other countries.

Pride is not a quality in my eyes. Humility is, on the other hand.

As for your money, your country is in such a huge debt, it's only a matter of time before OPEC sees the true value of the dollar.

Your position of super power is only going to last you another 50 years. Then, show's over.

We are just like Rome was they were great for thousands of years.

Rome was "great" only because it had a huge amount of conquered territory. They took slaves wherever they went. Living in the Roman Empire, for the 80% of the poor population, was hell. Is this how you want to be remembered?

It is not our war but we play a major part in it.

Hell yes it's your war. Unless you respect the UN security council.

But I doubt that.

Breton
03-14-2003, 10:03 AM
Originally posted by Father Torque
ep2 you are a selfish brat who thinks about 2 people who joined the army to save people unlike you who is sitting where you are. Whining and complaining to a bunch of people who think you are an inmature selfish person.

It's a bit funny, really, that a guy show his immatureness by complaining about another person's immatureness. Now, even though I don't like ep2anakin's views on guns, I will still tell you that anyone coming with personal insults, like you, are not fit for debating at this forum.

They would rather think about ohhh i may get shot in the chest, but i know im gonna die a hero and a great american.

Why the helheim is dying being a good American? If I ruled a country, I would defidently prefer the inhabitans to live...and why do you become a hero when killing others? That's what war is all about: Killing others. It's nothing glorious about it, it's just misery. War sucks.

you should be worrying about the 6.4 BILLION people who will die if this war doesnt happen.

Right...:rolleyes: ... it's not like it's the end of the world if we don't attack him, saying that is sligthly ignorant.

Think about all those family's that lost members in 9/11. They were killed by these horrible people. Who ar proud of it.

Do you know why they are proud of it? It has nothing to do with evilness, it's just because they hate USA. And after 9/11, USA has done nothing but fuelling that hate.

. Now if i were like you non-bush people, i would atleast come up with a good excuse why we shouldnt go to war instead of cheesy, random, and totally fake stories about his intellegence level.

Take your sweet time and read some of our posts, k?

Also all you people that say Jesus said Thou shalt not kill in the bible, doesnt pretain to anything about this war.

I'm not christian myself, but it's a bit funny that it's often the christians who are the first to don't give a damn about anything Jesus said.

War is not murder and to those of you who thin kit is, go back to pre school, because alot of you are acting like 3 year olds.

Can you please anwer me something? What is murder if it isn't killing others? Perhaps "murder" is another name of an English tea pot or something :rolleyes:

and to those of you who thin kit is, go back to pre school, because alot of you are acting like 3 year olds.

...says the person who can't spell and says the population in USA is 600+ million.

They are deffinrtly more strong mentally than you will ever hope to be

Does it require stong mental ability to shoot at others? I belive that the ones who doesn't are stronger mentally.




America had to fight a great war against the British army in the 1770's.

But would you have managed it without the French? Doubtfully.

Honer, Bravery, and freedom are all the qualities of America.

Bravery?? *snorts*

We were brave in the 1770's to stand up to a massive and outnumbering army of trained, armed, and nicely treeted soldiers.

With great help from the French, that is. Don't belive you fought the war alone.

And i dont thin kyou realize how important these qualities are too us. We are proud of these things. Also Bravery.

Let's see: Afraid of Saddam. Afraid of terrorists. Afraid of indians (you used to be). Afraid of loosing your freedom. Afraid of your fellow americans (that's why you have guns). Afraid of communists. The list goes on and on.

I dont know if you Euoropeans, or wherever youre from care very much. But those 2 towers were like Egypts pyrimids, Frances' Eifel Tower, Pisa Leaning tower of Pisa, Australlias Great Barrier Reef, China Great Wall, South Americas great Amazon, Canadas National Tower in Toronto. These are all important landmarks.

But most of these landmarks you mention are important historical landmarks too.

3000 fellow americans were killed how would you fell if 3000 of youre people died 1 including your best friends grandparents.

It would be sad. But two wrongs don't make one right.

What about Americas great depression in 1929. People had to be brave, they had to live on the street, eat bread 1 time a day. They were dirt poor. But look at all these other countries did they help us in anyway No, they werent honorable they were the ones being arrogant, fat and dumb

It is obvious that you don't know much about it. Europe suffered as bad as USA in this crisis, and they were already poor after WW1, especially Germany.

Then soon following Pearl Harber 2000+ are killed. We had to send soldiers into Japan. On the frontline, they knew they would die. You dont thin kthey were brave, you have a nother thing coming.

1. The attack at Pearl Harbour was a preventing strike.
2. USA never sent many soliders in Japan. They nuked two of their cities instead. Talk about brave :rolleyes:

Now all im trying to say is that other countries should stop bugging on us.

Why doesn't other countries have a right to critizise?

No offense but America is the the greatest country in the world. We have the money, technology, military, and pride then most other countries.

Have you lived in other countries? Thought not. Don't talk about the things you do not know.

you guys need to stop bugging us and try to support our decision.

Why do we have to support your decision if we belive it's wrong?

You would be of more help if you supported our and UN troops instead of whinning and groning about them dying. it was there decision to join and they know the consequinces. They chose to fight for freedom. Honor. And Liberty.

I ask you again: Why do we have to support your decision if we belive it's wrong? And they fight for death, suffering and hate anyway.

We are just like Rome was they were great for thousands of years.

Dozed off in your history classes, have yeh?

EDIT: I just saw something on the nes. Venders arent gonna sell french fries anymore, they are gonna be freedom fries. I am not bying anything french for awhile they are being p****'s.

How very childish of you. So you belive they are "p****'s" just because they do not agree with you?

Also Bush senior never did that stuff about abbandoning Iraqians. Thats just a made up rumor that you and your little friends made up to make people beleive in crap like that.

If you don't know anything about that case anyway, why are you assuming those things?

In some places in Asia they cut of your hands for eating gum, and if you litter they will cut of your ear

False.



Thats right. He doesn't try to impress people or agree to whatever they say because he doesn't want them to hate him. He does what he thinks is right and I respect him for that.

A president is a sort of representative of the people. And if he does not care about what the people say, that says only one things: He's acting on personal matters.

This is in response to those who hate America or Bush so it seems and they actually live in this country. Show some respect please. You have to admit, that guy has some balls to do what hes doing right now. He's going against the wishes of over half the world. I would bet my life that none of you could do that against such odds. So show a little respect.

The line is short between bravery and foolishness. What scares me most is that you will support him if he fails. I mean, here you got a guy who uses half his time on doing one thing. Everyone else think that thing is a real stupid thing to do, and tells him to not doing it. But he does it anyway, and everyone sees that it really was a dumb thing to do, and millions gets killed for nothing. I don't understand how you can support him then. It's not like he knows better than you or me.

This "war" has grown over the fact that Iraq may have nuclear weapons or weapons of mass destruction, its grown to encompass the fact that he is cruel, heartless and a dictator by all means. Do you know some of his methods for testing his regime's loyalty? He sends masked men dressed in the clothes that his enemies wear, put the man at gunpoint and ask one simple question. "Are you with us?" If by fear the guys says "Yes" thinking that its Saddam's enemies talking, they shoot him. He also has "acid drip" rooms in which slow drops of acid drop down and the person has to keep constantly moving back and forth. Soon they get tired collapse and die by acid.

Right. I completely understand. Saddam is an evil, sadistic, bug-like alien from Uranus and he is preparing the world for being invaded by evil martians, and he's eating family members for dinner and make dinner plates out of eyes of captured Kurds while he's enjoying the pain yells of the millions of people being tortured in his bedroom. And he likes to fly to USA in the night to drink the blood of small kids and afterwards he pulls all their lims off and hangs them in his throphy room in Bagdhad.

C'jais
03-14-2003, 10:29 AM
Originally posted by Vestril
You know what would be really funny? If Saddam abdicated and walked away, said 'I'm tired of this, I will let America install a new government providing it gives me amnesty for any perciveced crimes I have commited' handed over the country, and Bush said 'well ok' took his troops and left.

No, here's something that's even more funny.

What if Saddam complied and handed over every single biochemical facility, every single WMD warhead and fufilled every single paragraph of the 1441.

Now that the legal cassus belli had been negated completely - would USA still go to war?

I've a strong feeling they would, for some reason.

The trouble with being the most powerful country in the world, is that other nations tend to be critical...if Finland...for example...were in the hot seat, I have a sneaking suspicion that it wouldn't be doing much better than America.

No, probably not, but we'd still correct them. We'd still point out the flaws in their foreign policy. Don't think the rest of the world is above such criticism.

I'm sick of the argument that goes: "Oh, think of poor Bush, having the media spotlight on his face all the time." "Just because we're the superpower, everyone hates us!". "

I hate this, to put it bluntly. USA screws up, the rest of the world gets furious because your President's actions carry a lot of weight behind them. And you have a habit of making pretty bold moves, such as making shady dealings with corrupt governments and seeing phantom menaces everywhere.

Think of past dominant empire's foreign policies, have they ever been very good?

No, but you'd think such nations would learn with time. This is the 21st century after all, not the 18th.

err, freedom fries...I was thinking liberty cabbage...(which was real...)

Freedom fries is just the start. Have you heard the news about how your government is going to digging up dead soldiers in the mass burials in France, and ship them back home for a "proper military burial" as France has apparently "forgotten everything about honour in war." Next thing you know, they're going to surgically remove New Jersey from the mainland, and send the statue of Liberty (which was a present from France) back home.

This is quite possibly the worst load of horsedung I've ever heard USA sling out in my lifetime. Suddenly, France is the traitor because they're going to use their veto power in the security council. France is apparently preventing the UN from doing what it was made to do in the first place.

Bullsh*t. France has used their veto power a total of 6 times since WW2. USA has used it a whopping 70 times. 38 of those were in relation to Israel breaking several UN resolutions - all of the time it was 14 members proposing to take action against Israel's attrocities, while USA as the single member used their veto power in defiance of Israel's actions.

I can only ask: Why is it that Israel's crimes and oversteppings of UN resolutions can go unpunished, with USA actually defending them as the single UN member, while that same superpower screams "Traitor!" now, when France and Russia decides to use their veto power against this silly war. It's ridiculous, and it should appear ridiculous to anyone who knows these facts.

As for Saddam being a threat, that's pathetically unreal. We all know Saddam can't touch anything with those missiles he has. He's not going to, because the middle east is going to f*ck him sideways if he ever steps over the line again. Iraq has been left crippled since Gulf War 1. Spain or France could take him out (with losses, granted).

Now, the only thing that remains is his supposed connection to terror groups. Modern middle eastern terror cells are deeply fundementalistic. Iraq is the most secular country, even more secular than the US. Al qaeda hates Saddam's guts for his irreligious lifestyle. Lastly, to claim that Saddam is out to get you is rabidly insane - USA f*cking helped him on numerous occasions, he's asked for a debate with Bush (which he turned down) and he's disarming as we speak. As the middle east area is anything but monolithic evil, he's not going to team up with his enemies anymore than France is cooperating with Hisbola to hit "The great American enemy".

While Bush is out making war, he's turning attention away from the faltering economy in his hinterland. This war is going to attract so much media attention that only an impending big ass asteroid impact is going to everyone's eyes off of Iraq. And even then, they'll probably get equal coverage.

Darth Groovy
03-14-2003, 10:35 AM
http://www.themanipulation.com/seatbelts.jpg

C'jais
03-14-2003, 10:42 AM
Y'love tha' picture, dontcha boa?! :p

Ship it to the senate, if it must.

leXX
03-14-2003, 10:44 AM
Yep, off to the senate, and people, NO MORE FLAMING OR ELSE!. :)

Bob Gnarly
03-14-2003, 10:44 AM
this is exactlt what happend when i started a thread on a survey on how smart americans are...
http://www.themanipulation.com/thread-ugly.gif

{BK}SupremePain
03-14-2003, 10:55 AM
JM Qui-Gon Jinn would make a better U.S president then Bush ever will:D

thank god for someone saying all that.... i share a lot of your opinions but im too lazy to type all that....lol
i want to know something though.... what does Americans think of 'us' Euoropeans...?
i think some Americans kind of look down on us and think were some how not very smart just becuase we dont want war.... is that true? i know a lot of you dont have any problems with Euoropeans:) dont worry i dont mean you guys
and can someone give me a reason why to support Bush actions? i mean other then what Reborn said...

Breton
03-14-2003, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by {BK}SupremePain
JM Qui-Gon Jinn would make a better U.S president then Bush ever will:D


:thumbsup:

But my vote would go to C'jais.

ckcsaber
03-14-2003, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by TheHobGoblin
First this isn't "Bash the president central!" I'm supporting him, so this is for the Bush supporters.

Okay, go make a "Bash the USA/President" thread somewhere else! This thread is for his supporters, not :sigh: people who would rather point out faults and insult the USA and Bush.

Lets get on topic!

C'jais
03-14-2003, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by ckcsaber
Lets get on topic!

Actually, this is on topic.

We're pointing out why there's no need to support your president. Unless you refute our arguments, you really have no case of supporting him, unless we're talking blind patriotism.

ckcsaber
03-14-2003, 12:35 PM
This thread is made for comments about why the people who support him do. Its is clearly stated in the threadstarters first post.

If you want to post stuff about why we should not support him, that is off topic. Make another thread and do it there.

ET Warrior
03-14-2003, 12:40 PM
The thing that I dont think people seem to care about, is the fact that probably none of us know 1/100th of the stuff Bush knows about this war and Iraq. He may not be the smartest man alive, but he's surrounded himself with an intelligent cabinet and advisors who all konw what they're doing. So maybe Iraq is actually more of a threat than any of us have been lead to believe? It's possible.



And JMQuiGon, since your country seems to be so amazingly perfect, perhaps you could use your perfection to fix my country. I would certainly appreciate it.

XWING5
03-14-2003, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by ep2 Anakin
.....many people will die, and you support that? do you have anyone close to you in the military? in the frontlines? i do, and i do NOT want this war to happen, ..... sure we'll win, but not w/o the cost of young lives.

.....our MILITARY is brave for actually putting up w/those orders, not the people who sit on their asses at home saying "LET'S GO TO WAR I'M READY!"

also, if bush is so smart and great, why is he gonna fund iraq troops for rebuilding when oil is so high and he could make prices lower for us, help out his own country or the one we just beat the hell out of, that's also one of my problems w/him


I am 27, in the Army (Airborne!), and many of my friends are already there or about to go. And I support the war, as do my friends who are there. As a soldier you accept the fact that you are putting your life on the line for the greater good, if you want to call it that. No one wants anyone to die, but we wouldn't be doing this if it wasn't to save many more lives in the future. We aren't "putting up with orders." In fact, the level of respect that soldiers have for GW as compared to clinton is amazing. And just so you know, the majority of our oil does not come from Iraq.

griff38
03-14-2003, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by XWING5
I am 27, in the Army (Airborne!), and many of my friends are already there or about to go. And I support the war, as do my friends who are there. As a soldier you accept the fact that you are putting your life on the line for the greater good, if you want to call it that. No one wants anyone to die, but we wouldn't be doing this if it wasn't to save many more lives in the future. We aren't "putting up with orders." In fact, the level of respect that soldiers have for GW as compared to clinton is amazing. And just so you know, the majority of our oil does not come from Iraq.


Well Xwing, yes of course as an active duty soldier you must support his/her commander in chief. But those of us who are civilians are actually required to question everything our president does. If he is doing the right thing he can handle the spotlight.

But I will say this about a soldiers responsibility to his duty:

You are required to follow all orders given to you as long as they are legal. BUT, you also have a responsibility NOT to follow orders if they are illegal. If you are ordered to perform an illegal or imoral act and do it, and say well its not my fault, I was just following orders. You have failed your duty to your country, following orders has never meant blind obedience.
I hope you won't have to go but if you do I hope you and your friends can return home to your families safely, and SOON :)

XWING5
03-14-2003, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by griff38
But I will say this about a soldiers responsibility to his duty:

You are required to follow all orders given to you as long as they are legal. BUT, you also have a responsibility NOT to follow orders if they are illegal. If you are ordered to perform an illegal or imoral act and do it, and say well its not my fault, I was just following orders. You have failed your duty to your country, following orders has never meant blind obedience.


You are absolutely right, Griff, there are rules to following orders. The only thing I had an objection to was someone suggesting that we were "putting up with orders." But yes, we do indeed have a responsibility to say no if an order calls for us to do something illegal. And thanks for the best wishes. I probably won't be on a plane overseas anytime real soon, but I do wish all the best to those who are already there (I wish I could be there with them) :luke:

Reborn Outcast
03-14-2003, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn
Right. I completely understand. Saddam is an evil, sadistic, bug-like alien from Uranus and he is preparing the world for being invaded by evil martians, and he's eating family members for dinner and make dinner plates out of eyes of captured Kurds while he's enjoying the pain yells of the millions of people being tortured in his bedroom. And he likes to fly to USA in the night to drink the blood of small kids and afterwards he pulls all their lims off and hangs them in his throphy room in Bagdhad.

I don't understand. Do you think that Saddam is kind and loving? The things I listed about him are fully true...




Originally posted by Luc SolarAlso you might want to show some proof about these astoundingly imaginative ways of torturing people with acid (or what not) that Saddam uses.

Well stuff has been found and there was even a special about it on tv. (It was the History Channel I believe)

Luc Solar
03-14-2003, 04:10 PM
Just so that there's no misunderstandings:

Nobody likes Saddam. He is obviously a more or less insane tyrant.

I've heard that at they serve him a luxurious meal in every room in his palace (one of the ~170 he happens to stay in) "just in case". He naturally only eats in one room which he randomly chooses. I don't know what they do with all the 37 meals that are left over..

That alone tells that he has a screw loose. :(

The point of my earlier posts was, however, that one should not consider the stuff that the media shows "the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth".

Besides, bombing the crap out of Iraq can not be justified with the argument of "Saddam is evil".

Most countries won't bomb others even though they might consider their leader dumb, scary, crazy or whatever.

I like the pressure that the world had put on Iraq. I'd love to see Saddam assassinated, even...no matter how inappropriate that might be. But that's not my choice, nor George's.

Right now Iraq needs to show new proof of destroying their missiles etc. every day. This is what everyone wanted, right? The current situation gets us closer day by day to accomplishing the goal of disarming Saddam.
...That is the goal, right? Not oil or some personal vendetta.

I don't think USA should bomb the crap out of a country simply because Saddam is a sneaky bastard who doesn't play the game of politics honourably. He is the last person who will suffer from any problems Iraq encounters. There will be meals waiting in every room in his palace not matter how badly the rest of the people are starving.

ckcsaber
03-14-2003, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by Luc Solar
Right now Iraq needs to show new proof of destroying their missiles etc. every day. This is what everyone wanted, right?


America is looking for Chemical Weapons. The missles we just came upon, so now they are destroying those, but the US is looking for chemical weapons

Not oil or some personal vendetta

The US never got the idea that the point of this war was for oil. America has better sources for oil than Iraq. If we attack Iraq, our goal is not to get their oil. The oil is just a "spoil of war"

Breton
03-14-2003, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by ET Warrior
The thing that I dont think people seem to care about, is the fact that probably none of us know 1/100th of the stuff Bush knows about this war and Iraq.

So you support him because you think he knows more than us? How would he be able to anyway? When one of the leading weapon inspectors says US intelligence is rubbish, you kind of lose confidence in it. And what about China, Germany, Russia and France? Why do you belive they know less than Bush?

So maybe Iraq is actually more of a threat than any of us have been lead to believe? It's possible.

Possible, but unlikely.

And JMQuiGon, since your country seems to be so amazingly perfect, perhaps you could use your perfection to fix my country.

Never said my country is perfect, because it isn't. A lot of things in politics are pretty dumb, especially FrP, wich luckily seems to get less support right now. But the reason on why I don't bash Norwegian politics is that no one here really cares about it.

America is looking for Chemical Weapons. The missles we just came upon, so now they are destroying those, but the US is looking for chemical weapons

Precisely. They are looking for them. They haven't found anything yet.

ckcsaber
03-14-2003, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn
Precisely. They are looking for them. They haven't found anything yet.

:rolleyes:
We have found enough evidence to know Saddam had chemical weapons. He used them on his own people. Now when we ask him if he still has chemical weapons, he either refuses to answer or hide away.

Breton
03-14-2003, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by ckcsaber
:rolleyes:
We have found enough evidence to know Saddam had chemical weapons.

1. How can you know they have found enough evidence?
2. If they do have enough evidence, why don't they show it to other countries?

ckcsaber
03-14-2003, 05:33 PM
From the UN inspections, Iraq may have stockpiled more than 600 metric tons of chemical agents, including mustard gas, VX and sarin.

Where did all of this go?? It must be still there. Also from US satellites, we have confirmed that they have "mobile chemical labs". Also, why do most of their "scientists" refuse to talk, and when they do talk, we have evidence that they lied.

This all points to one thing, that Iraq has chemical weapons. They refused to cooperate, for the safety of human lives. The US MUST do something

ET Warrior
03-14-2003, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn
2. If they do have enough evidence, why don't they show it to other countries?

Because we don't like them :D

Breton
03-14-2003, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by ckcsaber
Where did all of this go?? It must be still there.

"You assume too much" -Padme Amidala, TPM.

Also from US satellites, we have confirmed that they have "mobile chemical labs".

No one's really taking US intelligence serious. You haven't confirmed anything, because of the simple reason that they could be anything, and not nessisarily making of chemical weapons.

Also, why do most of their "scientists" refuse to talk, and when they do talk, we have evidence that they lied.

What evidence? Perhaps you could source that?

This all points to one thing, that Iraq has chemical weapons.

"You assume too much" -Nute Gunray, TPM

ckcsaber
03-14-2003, 06:09 PM
Listen JM, the US is going to war. The US has enough evidence to support this war, and the US is going to stop Hussein.

Your dislike for America is merely blinding you

Breton
03-14-2003, 06:22 PM
Originally posted by ckcsaber
Listen JM, the US is going to war.

Unfortunatly, yes.

The US has enough evidence to support this war,

Then why won't they show it? Please tell me that.

and the US is going to stop Hussein.

Stop Hussein from what?



Your unconditional trust to your president is merely blinding you.

CagedCrado
03-14-2003, 07:55 PM
Bush is a wimp but he knows what is the right thing to do unlike FRANCE. I request a burning french flag emoticon.

:usa: :usa: :usa: :usa: :usa: :usa: :usa:


Its only not evidence since you wont accept it, it truly is the right thing to do and you are morons for stalling it. Long live USA :usa: DIE FRANCE!

Breton
03-14-2003, 08:00 PM
Originally posted by CagedCrado
Bush is a wimp but he knows what is the right thing to do unlike FRANCE. I request a burning french flag emoticon.

:usa: :usa: :usa: :usa: :usa: :usa: :usa:


Its only not evidence since you wont accept it, it truly is the right thing to do and you are morons for stalling it. Long live USA :usa: DIE FRANCE!

Good job, CagedCrado, you have now become the strongest canidate for the LF Imatureness Price 2003.

El Sitherino
03-14-2003, 08:11 PM
Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn
Good job, CagedCrado, you have now become the strongest canidate for the LF Imatureness Price 2003. dont you meant he LF Idiocy Prize? cuz if so then i second the nomination.

CagedCrado
03-14-2003, 08:11 PM
The anti war bs is just a ploy by europeans who gave iraq something or own an oil field there and they dont want us to find it. The US anti war protest bs is the democratic party and its long lengths of stupid things that really help nobody and greatly supress minorities. Im just stating the other side of the story and you dont like it. I can be patriotic and support my country as i know going to war with iraq is the right thing to do and i KNOW that we should. I know that there isnt any proof of saddams weapons but he has gassed his own people and is a threat to the region. He is an insane lunatic. Saddam hussein is not a good person, has no ideas of morals and cannot be trusted. Margaret Thatcher who was one prime minister of england said he couldnt be trusted.

El Sitherino
03-14-2003, 08:33 PM
Bush cant be trusted either( the US for that matter) the US government has done some bad crap too. my grandfather was ordered to fire upon his own troops. by the president. in the gulf war my uncle recieved the same order. they both disobeyed the order and were sent to trial after the trial was dismissed they were sworn to secrecy but of course with this big of info who would be silent my uncle was also ordered to fire mortars into civilian inhabited areas. i saw videos his friend took while the war was going on so i know what war looks like. the civilian kills totally outweighed the military kills. many of the civilians killed (by american troops) were women and children. not to mention women were raped and beaten by many military troops and members these troops werent even sent to a trial. and you say that america is good and just. you sir are the ****ing idiot. you are ignorant you are a blubbering oaf who doesnt even deserve the right to free speech its people like you that make this world hell.

CagedCrado
03-14-2003, 08:56 PM
Bush seems to be one of the nicest politicians that i have ever seen. He truly is a wimp but he is trying to do the right thing. Hes not thinking of just himself like others are, a war with iraq will liberate millions of people, i know atleast 6 million people in israel will live in assurance that they wont get gassed. Not to mention kurds and other people who are raped, beaten, torchered, and live in fear of saddam in iraq. We need to atleast disarm and stop saddam from hurting his own people. Also you realize that if saddam gassed people using a large amount of gas or used a nuclear weapon, that the affects of the weapon could be blown on the wind to areas in europe and asia, possibly the united states. Saddam has the power to kill millions, no billions. He has enough gas to kill everyone in the entire world. If thats not reason enough to stop him in any way possible (even war), then i dont know what could possibly make you go to war. I know people who fought in world war two and korea, and they think it is the right thing to do. (theyve seen it before, what waiting can do... Anyone know Hitler?)

Father Torque
03-14-2003, 08:56 PM
Originally posted by C'jais
Actually, this is on topic.

We're pointing out why there's no need to support your president. Unless you refute our arguments, you really have no case of supporting him, unless we're talking blind patriotism.


Now C'Jais. Im not being rude, but i would like to say shut the h*** up. Your being an uptight jerk. Everything that we Bush supporters say you always have some answer that half that time you make up as you go. Your saying all these bad points about my post and half of them are completely random and false. And to Qui Gon i made a mistake. There are 300,000,000 million people in the US. I was thinking of something else. Also im not gonna sit here and listen to all youre negative bull crud C'Jais. Half of youre statistics have been proved wrong by the CIA website. Dont go thinking that all youre facts are correct because they arent correct. This greta deppresion stuff you say affected the whole world is correct, but a trust worthy website states that the great depression barely affected France and many neighboring countries. So in political terms youre wrong. Also JM Qui Gon you want evidence. How bout the tapes of Sadam killing innocent christians and 17 empty warheads. Also a great comment my dad made. Many countries did not believe that Hitler was massacering thousands of jews. They thought the us was just trying to cause major problems. Look what happened when countries like France found this out they were mortified. So USA isnt always trying to cause major problems. The same thing is happening right now. Why is Tony Blaire supporting us. Because he knows what has happened with Sadam that most of you wouldnt even think of having happen. Also the famous talk show host Micheal Savage is showing on his show the uncut videos of Sadam's killing habbits. They are horriblw and grusom. Now all you non USA people you have no clue how we feel about 9/11. Also C'Jais why are you saying that we say no ther country is good. I know of countries that have better things than we do, but i did not mention them, dont get me wrong, i think america is pretty crappy right now. And that we have a round a $3 trillion (i think:p)debt. Also back to Qui Gons statement of the time period of Rome. The story of Romulus and Remus dates back to 745 BC. Then in 1495 the seljuk turks invaded and destroyed the last part of the 2 roman empires Constantinople. Do the math 1000-745 then the total +1495. You get somewhere around 1700. Hmmmmm more than 1000 years. Hows do ya like that. And Wui Gon again. We show trust to Bush, because he is a great man, of intellegence. Even though he has rough time with spelling you cant tell me that he is a a stupid idiot and he doesnt know wht he is doing. thats bull crud. And JM youre the one saying that i say other countries are stupid and dumb look back at your post to ckc. You said no one trusts america how do you know give me evidence. O holy hipocrite. And JM will there ever be enough evidence to convince you or are you gonna always thin kthat there is not enough? And JM again you said we havent found any chemical evidnece. What in the heck are 17 empty warheads are doing lying around in Iraq, do you think some teens just found empty warheads and put them in Iraq soil for fun:rolleyes: . You really gotta thin kabout your facts before you go blurting about how great and perfect your country is. i know you stated that thats not true but you keep on going on to the fact that it is perfect. Imagine being a president you would pee in your pants if you had this tough decision. Also the bible states that war is not murder, but murder is war. Also i suggest that you guys read the bible becaus eyou obviously have a problem with trust. And JM again you keep on saying that im immature, well if i am how come i can write this much about my opinion at the age 12. I cleary thin kno one here is inmature, and i think everyone is fit to debate here, and you ahve position to say that they cant. Please send me a pic of your faces when you find out that Sadam does have weapons of mass destruction. You will then come to think that America isnt making this stuff up. We are being honest. And why is it so bad to boast about our nations qualities. It is our right as humans to be thankful for what are ancestors did to give us freedom. And i do recognize that French forces did play a major role in the the 1770's especially at the war of gettysburg. I never said they didnt you jsut assumed. And yes to the person who mentioned that this should be a bush supporters only thread. Look at the thread title. Bush my president. Not Bush yes or no. And how come it seems that all you non bush people can never come up with a good arguement, you are always saying WHY WHY WHY. Cant you guys have a good counter arguement. Its like im getting feed back from a 7 year old. You always say. Where is the evidence, why dou you trust him, cant you state your opinion in a way that doesnt include the word where or why in every sentence. I dont know if its becaus eyou yourselves are to inmature to right write something worth reading or you just dont have the skill to write a political issue reply. Im not flaming anyone here, and i plan not to. If you totally hate my guts and think im a stupid twit. PM me and i will gladly debate with you. Please in the future non-bush people dont always come to the conclusion that we are lying . Because we arent and there would be no point. Also stop saying that bush is stupid and dumb. You cant have these qualities and become a president. It doesnt work like that. And all you people who think C'Jais should run for president even if youre just kidding. Call me when you reach the point in your life when reality smacks you over the head with a stick. C'Jais is a great debater, but no offense to C' Jais he would be a horrible president. He doesnt thin kamerica has bravery honor and liberty in itself. Any president who doesnt beleive america has these qualities should go back to where they came from and be a presidnet there. because i assure you he would only get votes form pot heads and people who vote just for kicks. A small majority of the American vote. And possibley you people who have not yet experienced realities left hook. Be safe, and dont be stupid

-Father Torque

El Sitherino
03-14-2003, 09:04 PM
Originally posted by CagedCrado
Bush seems to be one of the nicest politicians that i have ever seen. He truly is a wimp but he is trying to do the right thing. Hes not thinking of just himself like others are, a war with iraq will liberate millions of people, i know atleast 6 million people in israel will live in assurance that they wont get gassed. Not to mention kurds and other people who are raped, beaten, torchered, and live in fear of saddam in iraq. We need to atleast disarm and stop saddam from hurting his own people. Also you realize that if saddam gassed people using a large amount of gas or used a nuclear weapon, that the affects of the weapon could be blown on the wind to areas in europe and asia, possibly the united states. Saddam has the power to kill millions, no billions. He has enough gas to kill everyone in the entire world. If thats not reason enough to stop him in any way possible (even war), then i dont know what could possibly make you go to war. I know people who fought in world war two and korea, and they think it is the right thing to do. (theyve seen it before, what waiting can do... Anyone know Hitler?) first of all he doesnt have that kind of weapon power. second he doesnt have nuclear capability. he may have nuclear facilities but none powerful enough to even make a megaton a bomb. third i doubt you even care about israels people. you didnt seem to show up when the palestine war started (it was only a few months ago).

SkinWalker
03-14-2003, 09:05 PM
I've been sticking to my Subscribed Threads and missed this one for a couple of days. I haven't yet waded through the several pages of posts, but I had to stop at yours.

Originally posted by Father Torque
"There is no evidence on any weapons in Iraq. 17 empty nuclear warheads found. Ring a bell in yo ear people. You cant sit here and tell me that some idiots from who nows where found empty warheads and his them in Iraq.

They were warheads. They were not designated as nuclear. If anything, they were capable of carrying the type of chemical weapons that about 16 other nations have in their arsenals.

Originally posted by Father Torque
Look at you guys you sit at your computer all day at a forum which will never have you succed to anything. You have no responsiblity.

Definately not true in my case. I wish it were. I've a feeling that statement rings true in less forum members than you believe.

Originally posted by Father Torque
He has to handle Millions of people. Do you think he wants war.

Yes. For him it appears to be ego. His place in history. Setting an historical precedence that will be revered for all time.

Originally posted by Father Torque
And on 9/11. What does this crap mean. Oh he doesnt care about anything woe is me, he is a horrible president because he cant say, "w".

Bush continually evokes 9/11 to justify his actions. This dishonors the lives lost and their survivors. Bush has squandered away the good will given to us by the rest of the world that was sympathetic to us after the attack. From my perspective, that's a betrayal.

Originally posted by Father Torque
But when ya think about it, how did we become a nation. Britan didnt just say ok sure that cool. There was WAR.

And after we secured the Colonies from our former King who didn't have the foresight to place a strong military in the New World, we turned to the indigenous people whom we conquered and then we built a nation. A great one. What's done is done, but we have to keep this in mind as we trod forth.

Originally posted by Father Torque
And now is not the time to win with words because words dont work in the real world.

Words go a long way to making change. Especially if they are said in unison by enough people. Words can educate and invigorate. Words can aggitate and irritate as well. Words are essential to getting what we want in a democratic-republic.

Originally posted by Father Torque
You have to go through pain sometimes to get what you want. Also would you rather have the USA die and have your 2 friends live or have America 600+ million people live and have 2 friends risk there lives. Do the math i hope you get the right answer.

The United States of America is NOT at risk. Saddam has NO nuclear weapons. Even if he had couple, he would have no way to deliver it nor would he chance it. The same applies to the chemical weapons he is sure to have. If he utilized them, then the world would be justified in dealing with him. This should've been done the last times he used them, which weren't even during the last decade or two, but the world chose not to do so.

Originally posted by Father Torque
He is an impecable president and i dont think ANYONE can give me an INTELEGENT reason on why he is a bad president.

1) He lied to the citizens of Texas. I voted for him for governor because he stated in the campaign that he intended to be governor not a presidential candidate. A few months later, it came out that much of his gubanatorial campaign money came from the Calif. Republican Party. Shortly after that, he announced his candidacy for President.

2) It was confirmed that Bush knew about the likelihood of attacks by terrorist hijaking airliners to collide with buildings prior to 9-11-01. Little was done to prevent or deter this.

3) The entire world was behind the United States and our decision to deal with the Taliban. We lost nearly all of that world support with the unilateral decision of the Bush administration to invade Iraq

4) The U.S. economy is tanking. Billions of dollars will have to be spent on a war with Iraq in addition to the billions already spent. Billions, if not trillions, of dollars will be needed to rebuild Iraq. European nations are not likely to pitch in if they don't agree to invade.

5) The Bush administration's own advisors in the State Department have indicated that establishment of a democracy in Iraq is an unlikely and unrealistic prospect. Yet, Bush drives forward with his desire to change the regime.

6) The precedent of Pre-emptive war will enable other countries to attack each other because they feel threatened.

7) The United States squashed a country (Afganistan) from only the air. This is unequaled power that make the rest of the world nervous. A pre-emptive invasion, one that doesn't catch Saddam in the act of atrocity, will instill fear in many throughout the world. Some will react as scared people do... they will lash out.

8) Bush referred to North Korea as a "regional problem" instead of a world problem. Ironically, N. Korea possesses the technology to hit the western, possibly the mid-western, United States with a missile. This of course means that any of a dozen or so friendly countries and U.S. interests are vunerable as well.

9) Every indication is that Bush's referrence to N. Korea as an "axis of evil" began the negative posture they've taken as a response. In essence, they took that statement to mean "you're next."

10) As an insider and part owner of Harken Energy Corp., Bush failed to disclose a significant sale of stock in a timely manner to the SEC. A no-no that even amateur stock traders would avoid. Bush claimed it was an oversight. It was definately that or intentional. I say this, if intentional it proves he's crooked. If an oversight, it proves he's incompetent.

No President is perfect. There are always faults. But to not have a cabinet balance, or allow the other branches to balance, his faults is betrayal to the American people. This is our country and he works for us. Yet he continually speaks of "his decision" to go to war and "my government" in his speaches. He condemns the voice of the people by stating that the protests against unneeded war are "insignificant."

Bush is far from "impecable." That much is fact. He's incompetent. That much is opinion, but I predict the next election will bear that out to be true.

Originally posted by Father Torque
If no war. Sadam will nuke us all kill 6 billion people and the earth will be no more.

This is far beyond his capability. It's even far beyond the capability of Kim Jung Il, who has disclosed an active nuclear weapons program. India and Pakistan are far more dangerous due to their proximity to each other, their discontent with each other, and the instability of their governments. They have prolific nuclear weapons programs.

Originally posted by Father Torque
Are you willing to distor gods great creation for your benefit i hope not.

Man made the world the complex, competitive and hateful bubble of air in the galaxy. Not some undisclosed diety.

Originally posted by Father Torque
I would rather die than see 6 billion people die.

As would I. But that's not the issue in the question of Iraq. Much of the American public is being duped by a President that wants nothing more than to establish an aristocratic power base. We rebelled against that in the 1700's... we sure as hell don't need it again.

CagedCrado
03-14-2003, 09:08 PM
1. The united states cares plenty about israel.... we try to help them become peaceful with palestine and we support a palestinian state as well as israel living in peace, that would be a good thing for them.

2. Iraq does have that kind of power and they will have nuclear weapons. they had many thousands of gallons of chlorine gas, mustard gas and anthrax.

And they still do as theyve been making it, hiding it, and turning over old weapons.

El Sitherino
03-14-2003, 09:18 PM
Originally posted by CagedCrado
1. The united states cares plenty about israel.... we try to help them become peaceful with palestine and we support a palestinian state as well as israel living in peace, that would be a good thing for them.

2. Iraq does have that kind of power and they will have nuclear weapons. they had many thousands of gallons of chlorine gas, mustard gas and anthrax.

And they still do as theyve been making it, hiding it, and turning over old weapons. bull**** i have seen no evidence to support this. second ive seen videos and pictures of their ENTIRE nuclear facilities they dont have that kind of power. oh and if they did guess who taught them how to make that stuff. thats right AMERICA the "greatest" country in the world:rolleyes:

SkinWalker
03-14-2003, 09:29 PM
Originally posted by ckcsaber
America plans to take Iraq out completly. They will not leave Iraq behind with any form of retaliation.

There is no doubt as to the ability of the United States military in its ability to decimate the Iraqi military and civilian infrastructure. That can, and probably will, be done with a terrible swiftness.

But then what?

That's the problem with my fellow countrymen who just blindly support the Bush administration. Rather than think for themselves, they'd rather just buy into whatever seems easy. But that's the beauty of a good scam-artist. Bush can shuck and jive with the best and sell them on what he wants them to see.

He makes no mention of the fact that his own people are advising that replacing Saddam with a democratic leader is not realistic.

He makes no mention of the billions, possibly trillions, of dollars that will go into rebuilding the Iraqi infrastructure.

He makes no mention of the ability to control whether oil will be represented by the dollar or the Euro by merely rebuilding and controlling the Iraqi Oilfields.

He makes no mention of the fact that Europe is unlikely to assist in financing the reconstruction of Iraq post-war.

He makes no mention of the fact that Iraq will have to be occupied for many, many years by the United States.

Father Torque
03-14-2003, 09:29 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by SkinWalker

2) It was confirmed that Bush knew about the likelihood of attacks by terrorist hijaking airliners to collide with buildings prior to 9-11-01. Little was done to prevent or deter this.

What could we have done. he knew there was tention between the US and Afghanistan. He had no clue though that they would bomb the two towers. If he knew it he would have done something. It basically sounds like you guys think he hates the world and its inhabbitants. That isnt true. Yes we could have boosted security, and what not. But the tradjedy would have still occured. Hundreds of Muslim lookin people travel on planes every day. We cant do searches on only Muslims because we would be charged for Racism:rolleyes: . They had box cutters. They could have put them in their shoes for heaven sake. President Bush had no way of stoping the attacks. He could havenotified the UN on the matter. If he really knew about the events or not. Im leaning toward the fact that he didnt know, since I tend to stick on the republican side of the arguements. I dont believe Bush would have done such a thing. How do you know that he knew, it could have been a rumor, like many other political matters. Also I have a question who would you have wanted to be president out of the 3 candidates. Not including John mcCain and that other guy. I certainly would not want Al Gore. Ralph Nader had some good and bad points. George Bush had good points and experience from his father George Bush Sr. Who I think was also a great president. What would Al Gore or Ralph Nader do in these situations.

And on the gas matter. Iraq is not a key supplier of oil right now. We are leaning on Texas for our oil suppy. We have many other allies that will help us with oil supply problems. We dont need Iraq's oil. But in these times of uncertanty, getting shipments of oil from them is not a good idea.

-Father Torque

SkinWalker
03-14-2003, 09:32 PM
Originally posted by Darth Groovy
war....

"Whoo-ah! What is it good for?.... Absolutely nothing!"

Father Torque
03-14-2003, 09:34 PM
Originally posted by SkinWalker

That's the problem with my fellow countrymen who just blindly support the Bush administration. Rather than think for themselves, they'd rather just buy into whatever seems easy. But that's the beauty of a good scam-artist. Bush can shuck and jive with the best and sell them on what he wants them to see.


Well i have to disagree, you rfellow countrymen can think for themselves, they have the freedom too. Nobody is forcing them to believe anyone. Bush is saying join me or die, he is basically asking for support outside of the US. He has the right and authority to do so. So if youre countrymen cant thin kfor themselves then there are obviously problems with them. No offense:)

PS. Even though war is good for something. Its good for the winning country. I love that song byWAR its one of most favoritst bands:D

El Sitherino
03-14-2003, 09:36 PM
Originally posted by Father Torque
Bush is saying join me or die you are corrct sir.
FT makes a good point:)

Father Torque
03-14-2003, 09:38 PM
Originally posted by InsaneSith
you are corrct sir.
FT makes a good point:)


Dammit you know i screwed up. I meant Bush isnt saying Join me or die. Ill get you back Insane:p

El Sitherino
03-14-2003, 09:41 PM
:D well i guess. but hes ok but i still dont like him. i just dont like his policies well except for the social security and plans for the elderly those are all that i like but you know why he made those right? cuz hes gettin old and he needs free plans for when hes outta the white house :)

SkinWalker
03-14-2003, 09:49 PM
Originally posted by {BK}SupremePain
ARRGGHHH! this is anoying i REALY dont hope this the typical americans opinion.... is it?

Obi-wan13 and I disagree (if memory serves correct) on the Iraq issue, but I didn't see anything "annoying" about his post. In spite of our disagreements, I have a large amount of respect for Obi because he doesn't stoop to the levels that some others tend to (including myself from time-to-time).

Obi-wan13 was right. The U.S. is a world power. We do have the right to be proud of our accomplishments. Most, if not all, nations of the world have made their mistakes in the past.... especially the U.S. and the U.K.

We've got to see past the nationalism, ethnocentrism and the emotion and see the logic.

SkinWalker
03-14-2003, 10:14 PM
Originally posted by ET Warrior
The thing that I dont think people seem to care about, is the fact that probably none of us know 1/100th of the stuff Bush knows about this war and Iraq.

Which could also be as effective an argument for not going to war. See an earlier post of mine about what Bush is not telling us.

You might not know 1/100th ... but I tend to think I'm getting more informed everyday. The more information I get, the less I like what I see. Perhaps I should've remained ignorant. Tell me.... is it bliss?

SkinWalker
03-14-2003, 10:18 PM
Originally posted by XWING5
I probably won't be on a plane overseas anytime real soon, but I do wish all the best to those who are already there (I wish I could be there with them) :luke:

When/if you go: keep the sand out of your m16 and your canteen full; Be mindful of the chemlight colored scorpions that like to get under rolled up cammo nets. Good luck and come home safe! Hoo-ah!

SkinWalker
03-15-2003, 12:46 AM
Originally posted by Father Torque
Originally posted by SkinWalker

2) It was confirmed that Bush knew about the likelihood of attacks by terrorist hijaking airliners to collide with buildings prior to 9-11-01. Little was done to prevent or deter this.


Originally posted by Father Torque
He had no clue though that they would bomb the two towers. Yes we could have boosted security, and what not. But the tradjedy would have still occured. ... How do you know that he knew, it could have been a rumor, like many other political matters.

I recall an installment of 60 Minutes in which a key, but former, FBI agent was interviewed. I don't remember the agent's name, but it's possible this memo (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/05/15/attack/main509096.shtml) was his. Pay close attention to the agent's 8th observation... near the end of the paragraph. This of course isn't the only source, but it gives you the idea. There was also a press release, perhaps by Ashcroft, about what the various intellegence was regarding a possible attack.

Originally posted by Father Torque
And on the gas matter. Iraq is not a key supplier of oil right now.

True. They supply very little of our oil.

Originally posted by Father Torque
We are leaning on Texas for our oil suppy.

Not true. Texas oilfields are not nearly as productive as they once were. In fact, the only reason many of the wells are still in operation is because of recent innovations in drilling that allow driling horizontally across fissures.

Originally posted by Father Torque
We have many other allies that will help us with oil supply problems. We dont need Iraq's oil.

It's not their oil... it's the control of their oil sales. OPEC is about to switch to the Euro as a means to price oil.
http://www.forbes.com/home_asia/newswire/2003/03/06/rtr899062.html

This would have a profound effect upon the U.S. economy. It is also a motivation for controlling the Iraqi oil production as then they would surely hold to the dollar.

Insane: Your PM box is full.... Griff, yours was too ;p

Weapon X
03-15-2003, 01:03 AM
Originally posted by Father Torque
Ya as i said early and you re-quoted. ep2 you are a selfish brat who thinks about 2 people who joined the army to save people unlike you who is sitting where you are. Whining and complaining to a bunch of people who think you are an inmature selfish person. Your opinion isnt even fun to argue about. Why do you thin kthey joined the army ep. Maybe they would rather die for our country instead of moan about YOURSELF. They would rather think about ohhh i may get shot in the chest, but i know im gonna die a hero and a great american. They would rather save 6.4 BILLION people. And wh yare you wuurying about 2. you should be worrying about the 6.4 BILLION people who will die if this war doesnt happen. You got to reach beyond your own world and think about others. Think about all those family's that lost members in 9/11. They were killed by these horrible people. Who ar proud of it. Imagine what they will do next if we dont rid of them. Now if i were like you non-bush people, i would atleast come up with a good excuse why we shouldnt go to war instead of cheesy, random, and totally fake stories about his intellegence level. Also all you people that say Jesus said Thou shalt not kill in the bible, doesnt pretain to anything about this war. It is completely different. War is not murder and to those of you who thin kit is, go back to pre school, because alot of you are acting like 3 year olds. Face up to it, nothing is changing his opinion and nothing will. So why dont you support your friends and send them letters instead of whining about how they might die. If they saw you writing this stuff they would think you were a whimpy selfish person. If they think war is so bad, tell them to resign. Dont make decisions for them. They are deffinrtly more strong mentally than you will ever hope to be

-Father Torque

yeah father torque you're cool :rolleyes:
how old are you? cuz i'm only 17, unable to join w/o parental consent, and i can tell you now, i wanna finish high school and my parents would NEVER co-sign for me to go in right now, i had planned on going in, still do, this war can/could have been avoided, i think i recall bush backing down from a debate w/sadaam? but he wants to kill him? hmm, interesting to me. you all call me a selfish brat who sits on my ass and complains, what the **** are YOU? everyone here complains about something, i complain about how people don't think everything through, i don't know what you guys complain about, don't care either, just so everyone knows that you do. how old is everyone here? you are hypocritical for saying alls i'm doing is sitting on my ass when i'm NOT ALLOWED to join and you are. one of my friends has call rights and the other can write letters, his mom JUST got a letter 2 days ago post-marked Feb. 11, we JUST found out his address or i woulda sent lots of them by now. how do you know what they'd think if they saw me writing this stuff? do you know them? what are their names? oh wait, you DON'T know SHlT about them so sit down and be quiet, they'd probably want all your addresses so they could beat the **** out of all of you who are so ready to send people you don't know to their deaths. you will NEVER EVER get rid of people who are proud to die for what they believe in, you'd have to wipe out entire countries to do that. revenge won't do anything for the families of 9/11, it will only create more sorrow in this country, because even MORE people will die and it will NOT bring anyone back from the dead, this war could have been avoided but they decided to do it, for reasons god only knows.

lots of you say "quit worrying about yourself you selfish brat" "our soldiers are brave" i agree that THEY are, but YOU are not, no one here has mentioned anything about joining the military except Ratmjedi and myself, and you have the nerve to support war and criticize those who don't want it when you'll be safe at home typing on your computer for the rest of your lives while others are dying for you so you can feel proud about being an american, you are all so stupid "you'd rather have your 2 friends live than 6.4 BILLION other people?" if we don't go to war, nobody in the military would die and we could resolve this by TALKING, and NOBODY would die, how does that sound? cuz you are all so ready to criticize that you don't ever think outside of the box, my friends are in the marines but so are many others (something around 74,000) and if they live cuz we don't go to war that means that the others will to cuz why? we WOULD'NT have gone to war, what's to say that when we win all these attacks on america will stop? what's to say that they don't hit harder because of it? one reason they attack us is because they don't like the way we interfere with other countries affairs, now i have a strong feeling it will only get worse, i am thinking about everyone, i'm not being selfish in any way, well, yes i am, i want americans to live so i'm a selfish brat:rolleyes:, think more before you type, go ahead and criticize me more, i'll only keep posting my opinions and feelings and you'll never change my mind, and your comments about calling me a brat cuz i complain about people might die are hypocritical, why can i not want people to die when you can all complain about games, parents, and other little things in life freely?

p.s.- you can't resign from the military when you're signed in for 4 years, that's the minimum that they HAVE to be in, they can only get out on medical now, shows that YOU know a LOT about the military huh :rollseyes: whoever said it, can't remember

Weapon X
03-15-2003, 01:25 AM
Originally posted by XWING5
I am 27, in the Army (Airborne!), and many of my friends are already there or about to go. And I support the war, as do my friends who are there. As a soldier you accept the fact that you are putting your life on the line for the greater good, if you want to call it that. No one wants anyone to die, but we wouldn't be doing this if it wasn't to save many more lives in the future. We aren't "putting up with orders." In fact, the level of respect that soldiers have for GW as compared to clinton is amazing. And just so you know, the majority of our oil does not come from Iraq.

my friends are a paratrooper and heavy machinegunner, the paratrooper is in kuwait and the HM is in baghdad. first off, i support the military, i do NOT support the war though. second, i didn't say that iraq supplied the majority of our oil, i only said that instead of giving money to iraqi soldiers after the war to rebuild, bush or whoever is doing it, should use it to help their own country instead of the one we just beat the hell out of. good luck if you go over or if you are already over, make your friends and family happy by coming back alive. the opinion and views of military personell vs. civilian are and should be different. you guys are trained to kill and know that you might have to if told to, and you accept that you might die. it's in the job description, i support the people who are actually doing the dirty work and wish them all well, but i ABSOLUTELY HATE those who say "let's go kick their asses!" and sit around waiting for the BRAVE people to get their job done when they have every opportunity to join but choose not to "just cuz" or give some pathetic retarded reason, the real one: they don't wanna die or put up w/authority. i don't know what else to say w/o repeating myself so i'll stop now, good luck to you and your buddies.

SkinWalker
03-15-2003, 01:25 AM
Originally posted by ep2 Anakin
... think more before you type,...

I think you both need to think before you type (and maybe hit the enter key once in while so the typing is easier to read ;) ).

There's been a lot of name calling and foul language in this thread... I know we all can become heated, including myself, but that kind of thing does little for your side of a debate. Whichever side it is.

I don't really care so much whether people agree, I enjoy the debate, which is the point of the Senate Chambers. Debating an issue forces me to learn both sides of the issue. At times, particularly on intellectual issues, I even change my mind. There's a good part of me that sees reason and just cause to invade Iraq. It's the overwhelming opposition, globally and domestically, that makes me rethink it.

I propose that we all agree to remain civil for the remainder of the thread. I'd also ask that the mods not edit what has happened, but rather leave it as a monument to what we can become should we not adhere to the rules. The rules that preclude a poster from flaming and defeating the auto-censor with modified profanity. We can get what you mean with the "*" substituting letters.

I'd also ask that the mods issue any warnings they see fit, but not ban anyone based upon posts prior to this one. Emotions, at times, get the best of us all.

If I've offended anyone personally, please accept my apologies and PM me if you have a problem with something I say.

Now... like the android said, "please continue the petty bickering. I find it intriguing." :D

Father Torque
03-15-2003, 01:27 AM
Hey ep2, im sorry about all the stuff i said. I know its hard for i was just stressing my opinion. I know you dont want them to die. I dont want to be on bad terms with people here. Also i have always wanted to join the army. But i cant. Im 12:( . Best wishes to your friend. I still think we should have war. But i dont want your friends to die.

My regards
Father Torque

Weapon X
03-15-2003, 01:55 AM
sorry skinwalker i agree that some (lots actually) of the stuff i say isn't thought out in the least, but it's hard to get a point across on a computer, because it shows NO emotion, and i get really angry sometimes because it's as if people are only thinking of ways to further their status in society w/little regard for everyone else, and i got asked in earlier posts to hit enter, but sometimes i forget

my point is, this war didn't/doesn't have to come. it was avoidable. i think skinwalker said it: bush is trying to secure a place in history- that is completely true in my opinion, he has had hard times as president, but none of it justifies a war. also, people here who don't have anyone in the military and those who aren't in (that ARE of age) should have no right to say "let's go to war" because they refuse to put their lives on the line for their country they should have no say whether others do or not, their opinions are different than people like me. those who flame are just trying to belittle the ones they're flaming because they run out of comments to help their side of the argument, or they're just being childish and trying to make sure the person knows that they're an ******* or something like that. it's sad and funny at the same time, i know i've done it, but that doesn't mean that i don't wish i hadn't. hmm, war sucks, people will die, lots of sorrow will follow, and the possibility of suicide bombers hitting even harder will surely increase, then people will regret this war, no i only hope everyone makes smart decisions from now on

p.s.- skinwalker, how old are you, you are very knowledgable and can counter most anything people say, and you're not afraid to admit when wrong or agree w/what your opponent in a debate says

Breton
03-15-2003, 07:18 AM
Originally posted by Father Torque
Now C'Jais. Im not being rude, but i would like to say shut the h*** up. Your being an uptight jerk. Everything that we Bush supporters say you always have some answer that half that time you make up as you go. Your saying all these bad points about my post and half of them are completely random and false

You see it all the time. People who aren't able to debate against something another one said, and therefore gets so angry that they start to flame. Get a grip on yourself.

BTW, if you didn't know already, C'jais is a moderator. Not smart to insult those.

And to Qui Gon i made a mistake. There are 300,000,000 million people in the US.

Actually, it's closer to 275,000,000

Also im not gonna sit here and listen to all youre negative bull crud C'Jais. Half of youre statistics have been proved wrong by the CIA website. Dont go thinking that all youre facts are correct because they arent correct.

:rolleyes: What makes you think you know better?

This greta deppresion stuff you say affected the whole world is correct, but a trust worthy website states that the great depression barely affected France and many neighboring countries.

Understand that "Europe" does not mean "France". Im not too familiar with how the 1929 thing affected France, but I know that it affected Europe quite a lot.

Also JM Qui Gon you want evidence. How bout the tapes of Sadam killing innocent christians and 17 empty warheads.

Tapes of Saddam killing innocent christians? Sounds doubtful to me, at least the innocent part. About the empty warheads: They don't prove anything. But you may scource it.

Why is Tony Blaire supporting us. Because he knows what has happened with Sadam that most of you wouldnt even think of having happen.

No. He supports you because he's Bush's little pet dog.

Also C'Jais why are you saying that we say no ther country is good. I know of countries that have better things than we do, but i did not mention them, dont get me wrong, i think america is pretty crappy right now.

But a lot of Americans go boasting about on why USA is the best country in the world. Even though they mostly haven't lived in another country.

Also back to Qui Gons statement of the time period of Rome. The story of Romulus and Remus dates back to 745 BC. Then in 1495 the seljuk turks invaded and destroyed the last part of the 2 roman empires Constantinople.

But the greatness of Rome did not last thousands of years. Only some hundreds.

And Wui Gon again. We show trust to Bush, because he is a great man, of intellegence.

If he has intelligence, why don't he show it? Right now, he's acting like a monkey.

Do the math 1000-745 then the total +1495. You get somewhere around 1700.

Hehe, that's wrong, it's 745+1495=2240 years, not around 1700.

You said no one trusts america how do you know give me evidence.

I said no one trusts US intelligence. Just look at the "evidence" Powell presented for the SC, it was totally based in indications and suppositions, the weapon ispectors said themselves that it's rubbish.

You really gotta thin kabout your facts before you go blurting about how great and perfect your country is. i know you stated that thats not true but you keep on going on to the fact that it is perfect.

Oh, please quote me where I ever said my country's prefect. Oh, sorry, I forgot you can't, since I've never said it!

Imagine being a president you would pee in your pants if you had this tough decision.

Right. Just belive that.

Also i suggest that you guys read the bible becaus eyou obviously have a problem with trust.

The point is that I do not trust any of the two sides in this conflict, I trust neither Saddam or Bush in other words. trust the neutral ones who actually know things.

. And JM again you keep on saying that im immature, well if i am how come i can write this much about my opinion at the age 12.

I do have my theories on that, but they aren't really fit of telling.

Please send me a pic of your faces when you find out that Sadam does have weapons of mass destruction.

No one here has said that they don't have them. It's just that there is not enough reason to assume that he has.

And yes to the person who mentioned that this should be a bush supporters only thread. Look at the thread title. Bush my president. Not Bush yes or no.

But a one-side pro-Bush thread is practically propaganda in itself. If you won't see both sides in a case, your mind is easily going to be tricked.

And how come it seems that all you non bush people can never come up with a good arguement, you are always saying WHY WHY WHY. Cant you guys have a good counter arguement. Its like im getting feed back from a 7 year old. You always say. Where is the evidence, why dou you trust him, cant you state your opinion in a way that doesnt include the word where or why in every sentence.

We do have a lot of good arguments, it's just that you deny them. And a good deal of the questions are rhetorical, if you happen to know what that is. Rhetorical questions are real powerful in debates, but if you don't know what they are...

I dont know if its becaus eyou yourselves are to inmature to right write something worth reading or you just dont have the skill to write a political issue reply

:rolleyes: Read our posts, alright? It's quite ironic that it's you who complains about not having the skill to write a political issure reply.

Please in the future non-bush people dont always come to the conclusion that we are lying . Because we arent and there would be no point.

Oh, Bush have lied. To his own people. Quite scary, don't you think? He said that Iraq isn't disarming, but we know they are, even the weapon inspectors says so in their report. It's scary that people rather trusts Bush's brain than facts.

Also stop saying that bush is stupid and dumb. You cant have these qualities and become a president. It doesnt work like that.

Remember who's Bush got for a dad. Shouldn't be too hard to get to be president then, eh?

{BK}SupremePain
03-15-2003, 08:24 AM
Originally posted by SkinWalker
Obi-wan13 and I disagree (if memory serves correct) on the Iraq issue, but I didn't see anything "annoying" about his post. In spite of our disagreements, I have a large amount of respect for Obi because he doesn't stoop to the levels that some others tend to (including myself from time-to-time).

Obi-wan13 was right. The U.S. is a world power. We do have the right to be proud of our accomplishments. Most, if not all, nations of the world have made their mistakes in the past.... especially the U.S. and the U.K.

We've got to see past the nationalism, ethnocentrism and the emotion and see the logic.
i respect Obi too dont get me wrong he is wise and funny, but i get a strange feeling when that opinion on the war shows up, it must bug me so much becuase i am a person that is against war at any cost.... i dident have the right use of words there... sorry guys

Reborn Outcast
03-15-2003, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn
Tapes of Saddam killing innocent christians? Sounds doubtful to me, at least the innocent part. About the empty warheads: They don't prove anything. But you may scource it.

No tis hard to believe but its right. I'm not sure of a source on the internet but the History Channel was doing a 3 part series on Saddam and they had tapes of people (not sure if the were religious or not) being hung in the sqaures at public demonstrations. I don't know if he still does this because he is to busy hiding but it was done for a LONG time, ever since he became the ruler.

And wow, there is sooo much stuff here that I'm gojng to respond only to the things that caught my eye.


Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn
1. How can you know they have found enough evidence?
2. If they do have enough evidence, why don't they show it to other countries

There was an official CIA release that anyone can get on the internet about the amount of chemical weapons that Iraq had after the Gulf War or something. It was HUGE, enough to kill millions of people. To date, it is not known what happened to those weapons. I'll look up the report and try to get it to you.


Originally posted by ep2 Anakin
first off, i support the military, i do NOT support the war though.

And as your friends knew when they joined the military, they might have to go to war. They knew that when they joined, they made that choice. If you support the military then you should support them in any conflict that arises.


Originally posted by ep2 Anakin
you can't resign from the military when you're signed in for 4 years, that's the minimum that they HAVE to be in, they can only get out on medical now

Actually, (correct me if I'm wrong here), my cousin is going to graduate from West Point in May of this year. He then has to serve a minimum of 4 years of service. After that HE IS ALLOWED TO RETIRE as an officer. So yes, you are allowed to retire after 4 years I think.


Originally posted by SkinWalker
The United States of America is NOT at risk. Saddam has NO nuclear weapons. Even if he had couple, he would have no way to deliver it nor would he chance it. The same applies to the chemical weapons he is sure to have. If he utilized them, then the world would be justified in dealing with him. This should've been done the last times he used them, which weren't even during the last decade or two, but the world chose not to do so.

That is correct, the US is NOT at risk from Saddam himself, but the fact that we were able to be attacked by terrorists means that if any of his weapons get out to THEM, then the US is in danger.

Also, I am a firm Bush supporter but i think that he should be concentrating more on N. Korea. They pose the immediate threat to the US right now as they have nuclear weapons that can reach to the West Coast.

Originally posted by SkinWalker
4) The U.S. economy is tanking. Billions of dollars will have to be spent on a war with Iraq in addition to the billions already spent. Billions, if not trillions, of dollars will be needed to rebuild Iraq. European nations are not likely to pitch in if they don't agree to invade.

Well, if the war goes well and Saddam is either killed or ousted with minimal casualties, then the European countries will most likely want to pitch in. The question is then, will the Bush administration get over their pride of winning enough so that they will ALLOW the nations to do that.


Wow thats enought for today, to many posts here. :D

ckcsaber
03-15-2003, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn
If he has intelligence, why don't he show it? Right now, he's acting like a monkey.

:rolleyes: Oh please:rolleyes:

El Sitherino
03-15-2003, 01:10 PM
Ich mochte George Bush schlagen

Weapon X
03-15-2003, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
Actually, (correct me if I'm wrong here), my cousin is going to graduate from West Point in May of this year. He then has to serve a minimum of 4 years of service. After that HE IS ALLOWED TO RETIRE as an officer. So yes, you are allowed to retire after 4 years I think.

but they HAVEN'T been IN for 4 years, they're both only completing the first in june, they have a long time to go, they CAN'T resign right now, in your post you didn't argue my point, you only supported it, i said they have a minnimum of 4 year service and you said that your cousin has a 4 year service minnimum, THEN he can retire, after 4 years, just what i said

Breton
03-15-2003, 05:39 PM
I just have a question to all those who wants war in Iraq, the same question that the German foreign minister asked:

Warum jetzt?

Reborn Outcast
03-15-2003, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by ep2 Anakin
but they HAVEN'T been IN for 4 years, they're both only completing the first in june, they have a long time to go, they CAN'T resign right now, in your post you didn't argue my point, you only supported it, i said they have a minnimum of 4 year service and you said that your cousin has a 4 year service minnimum, THEN he can retire, after 4 years, just what i said

Ah my bad. Your post was unclear to me.

Darth Groovy
03-15-2003, 06:38 PM
BTW, if you didn't know already, C'jais is a moderator. Not smart to insult those.

Exactly. ep2 Anakin, I suggest you start exercising some civility in regards to your posting habbits, or you will find your self banned. I have seen enough already. Telling people to stfu, is not a good way to get your point across. Cussing out other members is a violation to the rules and you WILL be dealt with accordingly.

obi
03-15-2003, 07:29 PM
Originally posted by Darth Groovy
Exactly. ep2 Anakin, I suggest you start exercising some civility in regards to your posting habbits, or you will find your self banned. I have seen enough already. Telling people to stfu, is not a good way to get your point across. Cussing out other members is a violation to the rules and you WILL be dealt with accordingly.


What he said.

Have a nice day. :)

Breton
03-15-2003, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by Darth Groovy
Exactly. ep2 Anakin, I suggest you start exercising some civility in regards to your posting habbits, or you will find your self banned. I have seen enough already. Telling people to stfu, is not a good way to get your point across. Cussing out other members is a violation to the rules and you WILL be dealt with accordingly.

Eh...I was quoting FT's post, not ep2Anakin's...

Not that Anakin doesn't deserve a warning, but it seems a bit funny that you give public warning to ep2A and not to CagedCrado or FT. I mean, you'd think starting a racist thread is worse than cussing a bit.

Darth Groovy
03-15-2003, 08:49 PM
Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn
Eh...I was quoting FT's post, not ep2Anakin's...

Not that Anakin doesn't deserve a warning, but it seems a bit funny that you give public warning to ep2A and not to CagedCrado or FT. I mean, you'd think starting a racist thread is worse than cussing a bit.

CagedCrado was already warned by another mod. We work as a team.

Wether I warn here, or in a PM is irrelavant. Every mod does things a different way. All that matters is that the member in question was warned. If a "public warning" embarrases a member, perhaps they should not break the rules to begin with.

It doesn't matter how much you measure one violation in regards to another one. Starting a "racist" thread is one kind of violation, and insulting members, or "flaming" is another violation. When violations to the rules are made, we act accordingly.

Weapon X
03-16-2003, 01:10 AM
darth groovy

well what did you do to the people who called me a: crybaby, selfish brat, immature brat, and some other names i can't think of right now (just read their posts) they call me names for not wanting war and not wanting my friends or other americans to die, doesn't seem right to me, THEY should be the ones getting the warnings, i'm sure you've had moments wherein periods of heightened emotions you've let stuff come out that others didn't like. everyone has and there's no point in lying, so, if you ban me and no one else then you ARE singling me out for what reasons i don't know, and if that IS the case then you need to have your powers taken away because you are not exercising them accordingly to forum rules, not fair. this is a place of opinion and others will not listen unless you hit them hard w/SOMETHING that makes them think, which means, if somebody refuses to listen to what you're saying then it's actually a good thing to flame cuz i know when i'm getting cussed at i listen a lot more. i never told anyone to stfu, i said sit down and be quiet, but it's only after they said the same thing to me, why aren't THEY getting a public warning, i don't mind it, i just want to know that everyone here is getting the same treatment and you're not some war hungry guy who wants to punish all those who don't want war and this is the only way you can do it,

i am voicing my opinion and others flame me for it, and since there is no proof of warnings towards them it makes me wonder, make ALL warnings public so people know you ARE enforcing the rules and not just singling people out. now, since everyone has at least once said something they regret in a period of heightened emotions then why is it not forgivable? i'm not saying i regret saying anything on here, i feel that anyone ready to send my friends(or anyone for that matter) to their deaths w/NO proof of an immediate threat to the U.S. can go to hell, that's my opinion and i said that, being my opinion it was a generalization made in a response to a previous post and that person fell into that category, and i don't apologize for anything right now, because people refuse or are too young to join the military but want to go war so they can live their lives, think about the soldiers and their families, i used to love war and battles, but now that i actually think about things, i hate war, because it causes just as many problems (sometimes more) than it solves.

darth groovy, i don't apologize for anything, emotions play a LOT in these posts(especially with a topic like this) and if you don't understand that then i'm sorry for you, if you're going to give warnings make them ALL public so people know you are enforcing the rules fairly and not singling anyone out, cussing in a post and cussing out other members are completely different things, i don't remember cussing anyone out, but i could be wrong, it's late when i write these so i can forget, find me an example and prove me wrong, you can't can you? hmm, interesting, think more before you act, see heightened emotions- you didn't think before you typed and now you are wrong,

you'll probably ban for PROVING YOU WRONG but oh well, i guess it doesn't matter, if that's the way it's gonna be then i don't know why people would want to be here anyway, especially w/all the "france is gay" people, just cuz they are being smart and not pissing anyone off means that we need to boycott everything from and w/the name "french" or "france" or anything like that, soon we'll be a lonely country w/no friends cuz we're boycotting them and we still have 2-6 years of this, hmm, i wouldn't be the least bit surprised if bush DID get assassinated cuz he is NOT making smart decisions right now

so what about that groovy?

wassup
03-16-2003, 01:28 AM
tainting the moderator = :disaprove

This is getting out of hand...

Anyone up for some martini? :cheers:

ET Warrior
03-16-2003, 01:33 AM
Ummm, Anakin, perhaps you forget, but you came INTO this thread calling us rather harsh names even if we don't like war but think Bush is an okay guy. So how about you just, like, calm down and act your age?

Darth Groovy
03-16-2003, 05:02 AM
Seems to me that alot of people in this thread (note I am not mentioning any names) are posting in this thread just to be arguing. I doubt that many of those people even remember what they were originally arguing about anymore.

ep2 Anakin, I have a girl I am in love with that is due to ship out this summer. We were planning to get married and have children, so please do not tell me, that I do not have strong feelings. What matters is that we think carefully before we voice our opinions. Also in a period of hightened emotion, yes people tend to think before they type, but that is what the edit feature is good for. And like it or not, it is OUR jobs to remind you good people when things have gone to far. When I see an abundance of name calling, and a half page of posts that contain **** in every other sentance, it especially draws my attention. ep2 Anakin, if somebody in this thread offends you, you can pm one of us, or simply click the report post button, it works the same way. Sorry if you feel singled out, but honestly if I would have pmed you, would you have read it? And I have been told that I can warn by either pm or by posting in the thread, so I am not out of line at this point. Now if the you folks don't get back to the topic, the thread will be closed next.

acdcfanbill
03-16-2003, 05:02 AM
If i may, im going to lay down a few things. Firstly, in the real world, i know it suck and it happens to me, its never the first guy to do something wrong that gets into trouble. Its always the guy who retaliates, thats just the way it is right or wrong, thats usually what happens. Now, onto whether people should be warned in public or private, it doesnt matter. Its not something to get up tight over, no ones opinion of someone is going to change radically if they get warned in a thread, instead of a PM.

There are plenty of people at lfn who do not check their pm's and who dont have email notification on. To PM a warning to that user is a complete waste of time, since they may not get it for days or even ever. It is up to the mod to decide where to warn an individual, and if he or she feel's it best to warn publically, then every other mod would agree, we know each other and we know that we are all responcible enought to make decisions. If everyone on the forums were as rational as the mods are at most times, our jobs would almost be unneeded.

Now, that im done with that, i would appreciate it alot if this discussion could get back to the original topic before this thread reaches never never land.


bill

C'jais
03-16-2003, 07:08 AM
Originally posted by SkinWalker
He makes no mention of the fact that Iraq will have to be occupied for many, many years by the United States.

Only for as long as it takes to pump out all the oil in that country.

After that, they're gone.

Reborn Outcast
03-16-2003, 08:23 AM
Ok ep2 Anakin I'll answer your thing about your friends nicely.

They chose to join the military, correct? They knew that when they joined, there was always a possibility of them going to war, correct? You knew that as well. Now that war looks immenent, they can't turn away and run scared, they must face it, bravely. And they will to. Now, I don't agree with SOME aspects of this war but wanting the US not to go to war because of your friends is, well, in my opinion silly. Why would anyone join the military and then want to leave at the first sign of danger? They are doing what they wanted to do. Support them in their decision, they are protecting you far from there homeland. Now, they may not like this war at ALL but they knew that when they joined the Army, that it could happen. And they are probably proud to be there, knowing that some little girl or boy or adult will sleep better in the US knowing that they are keeping them safe.

Weapon X
03-16-2003, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
Ok ep2 Anakin I'll answer your thing about your friends nicely.

They chose to join the military, correct? They knew that when they joined, there was always a possibility of them going to war, correct? You knew that as well. Now that war looks immenent, they can't turn away and run scared, they must face it, bravely. And they will to. Now, I don't agree with SOME aspects of this war but wanting the US not to go to war because of your friends is, well, in my opinion silly. Why would anyone join the military and then want to leave at the first sign of danger? They are doing what they wanted to do. Support them in their decision, they are protecting you far from there homeland. Now, they may not like this war at ALL but they knew that when they joined the Army, that it could happen. And they are probably proud to be there, knowing that some little girl or boy or adult will sleep better in the US knowing that they are keeping them safe.

have you read any of my posts? i don't like war at ALL, i USED to think "let's kill some bad guys!" but now i'm like "talk it out cuz it only gets worse when there's fighting" ok? they joined because they wanted to yes, but ARE NOT wanting to run away, they haven't said anything to me like "war sucks, i dont' wanna be here" ok? my posts were saying that i don't like war, and the fact that i have friends over there makes me EVEN MORE opposed to it. they aren't running away, or wanting to. i NEVER said they didn't want to be there. and i NEVER said i wanted the U.S. to stay out of this war JUST BECAUSE i have friends in the Marines. you are putting words in my mouth/changing what i said to now support your argument and make me look dumber, more selfish, or whatever you want to call it. read thoroughly before you respond, i think that's twice you've done that to my posts

Reborn Outcast
03-16-2003, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by ep2 Anakin
have you read any of my posts? i don't like war at ALL, i USED to think "let's kill some bad guys!" but now i'm like "talk it out cuz it only gets worse when there's fighting" ok? they joined because they wanted to yes, but ARE NOT wanting to run away, they haven't said anything to me like "war sucks, i dont' wanna be here" ok? my posts were saying that i don't like war, and the fact that i have friends over there makes me EVEN MORE opposed to it. they aren't running away, or wanting to. i NEVER said they didn't want to be there. and i NEVER said i wanted the U.S. to stay out of this war JUST BECAUSE i have friends in the Marines. you are putting words in my mouth/changing what i said to now support your argument and make me look dumber, more selfish, or whatever you want to call it. read thoroughly before you respond, i think that's twice you've done that to my posts


Do you honestly think that Saddam is going to come out over peace talks? The UN is just sitting on its ass (pardon the language) and doing nothing. Everytime the US tries to talk to them, it just takes longer and longer for things to get done.

Tell me, after seeing that nothing has happened when the US HAS tried to go through the UN, what should we do? Huh?

And sorry about my last post, I admit, I made a mistake.

Breton
03-16-2003, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
Do you honestly think that Saddam is going to come out over peace talks? The UN is just sitting on its ass (pardon the language) and doing nothing. Everytime the US tries to talk to them, it just takes longer and longer for things to get done.


People don't always agree, and you can't force anyone to do it. Perhaps UN is taking some time, but what is the alternative? That one part decides it all? If so, the entire point about UN fades away, and the world turns into a dictatorship. And no one here wants that to happen, eh?

Reborn Outcast
03-16-2003, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn
People don't always agree, and you can't force anyone to do it. Perhaps UN is taking some time, but what is the alternative? That one part decides it all? If so, the entire point about UN fades away, and the world turns into a dictatorship. And no one here wants that to happen, eh?

No I certainly don't want a world dictatorship. :D But when I look at the grand picture, it seems that the UN is just there as a "puppet figure" (if I may) just to make it seem like they are getting things done, when they aren't. Don't get me wrong, thats just my impression and I'm not old enough to have experienced otherwise.

Breton
03-16-2003, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
No I certainly don't want a world dictatorship. :D But when I look at the grand picture, it seems that the UN is just there as a "puppet figure" (if I may) just to make it seem like they are getting things done, when they aren't. Don't get me wrong, thats just my impression and I'm not old enough to have experienced otherwise.

It has, of course, done a lot of things. It's just that you don't often hear about it, because it is in matters where people don't really disagree much. But you can think of it as the Senate in SW about creating or not creating an army of the republic. Some of them wants to, some of them don't. You can't change any minds, and you can't make anyone agree, so it's a very tricky situation indeed, because there isn't really anything you can do. Unless, someone wise decides, but that would be a dictatorship. But is a dictatorship always bad? As Anakin says in ep2, "Well, if it works..."

El Sitherino
03-16-2003, 05:37 PM
how bout this... everyone just say Screw it!....no, eh just a thought i mean when you try to force someone to think what you think and they still dont think like you, you just forget it. but oh well.

Reborn Outcast
03-16-2003, 05:42 PM
Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn
It has, of course, done a lot of things. It's just that you don't often hear about it, because it is in matters where people don't really disagree much. But you can think of it as the Senate in SW about creating or not creating an army of the republic. Some of them wants to, some of them don't. You can't change any minds, and you can't make anyone agree, so it's a very tricky situation indeed, because there isn't really anything you can do. Unless, someone wise decides, but that would be a dictatorship. But is a dictatorship always bad? As Anakin says in ep2, "Well, if it works..."

Yes, you're right. :D But on all the HUGE matters of importance, it just looks to me like the UN is just a "puppet figure." And you're right, it is very hard to change other people's minds who are set firmly on one goal.

And about the "If it works..." thing. Take ancient history for example. Specifically China. During the Qin Dynasty (221 B.C. - 202 B.C.) the ruler Shi Huangdi established an autocracy (a ruler with unlimited power) He forced peasants to build over 4,000 miles of roads and the Great Wall of China. His system worked, but the peasants weren't happy. They revolted when his son took over and the Qin Dynasty was demolished.

Now, that might not have been a very good example ( :D ) but it is one of a government "working" but the people may not like it. I don't care if a world dictatorship works, I don't exactly revel in the though of a person controlling the ENTIRE world. It makes me shiver to know that some madman could be voted in...

griff38
03-17-2003, 12:50 PM
I don't think that anyone posting in this thread or the hundreds who have read it will ever change their minds. Humans seem to labor under the illusion that a witty retort or long winded discussion is all it takes to make someone change their mind.
Think for a minute, has anyone from the opposing side made you think for 1 second you were wrong? I doubt it. I won't say it never happens though.

I guess the last thing I would say to those who disagree with me (iam against war and the US acting without an international mandate) is: Please do not lump me with hippies, and self serving librals. I am not a Pascifist by any stretch of the imagination. I believe we are better off with a strong up to date military than not, I just think that war with Iraq now is like trying to kill a hornet with a machine gun. Eventually you are going to win but the damge YOU do will be worse than a hornet could ever do.

XWING5
03-17-2003, 02:04 PM
Just a quick note about terms of enlistment: Now, I am not positive about Commissioned Officers, but for enlisted soldiers, 4 years of Inactive Ready Reserve are tacked on when you get out of the Army. This just means that it is still possible that you, as an ex-soldier can be recalled for up to 4 years after your enlistment ends. I have heard that officers can always be recalled, though, like I said, I am not sure of that one.

Like Griff said, no one is going to change anyone's mind here. You don't have to agree with war. I do because I don't believe that Saddam Hussein should be in control of a country. He used mustard gas to kill his own, in what, like 1998, and he has been reported by CNN as summarily executing those who disagree with his policies. His own people, behind closed doors, don't want him in power, but they are scared for their lives to speak up. Remember his joke of an election where he was unanimously re-elected. But, that is my opinion. I put my faith in GW's hands, and maybe I am naive, but I trusted him as my Governor, and I trust him as the leader of our country. Let's see what happens tomorrow. You know it's inevitable when the UN Inspectors pack up and leave.

FunClown
03-18-2003, 08:42 AM
You Americans really need to stop talking about stuff like Bravery, Honor, Freedom etc.

We all got that. Every country has the bravest most honourable soldiers. We all got "freedom".

Just please stop already. It sounds so silly.

America is a country filled with normal people. You are not more handsome, more beautiful, more talented, wiser or intelligent than the rest of the civilized world.

Two words: Hollywood ;)

Ever see the movie Independence Day with Will Smith and the aliens. Near the end, the Iraqians are all happy saying, "Finally, the Americans have come up with a plan". That is crying out for egotism. What if it were the other way around?

DISCLAIMER: I'm not anti-American

Chastan
03-22-2003, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by C'jais
Freedom fries is just the start. Have you heard the news about how your government is going to digging up dead soldiers in the mass burials in France, and ship them back home for a "proper military burial" as France has apparently "forgotten everything about honour in war." Next thing you know, they're going to surgically remove New Jersey from the mainland, and send the statue of Liberty (which was a present from France) back home.

Sorry to dig up this thread but you're kidding about the burial thing right?? :eek:

TheHobGoblin
03-22-2003, 09:11 PM
LOL How stupid and vulcan like people are. When I say Home of the brave I mean it and it's true. Ever heard of morale. You people have no faith in your own country. I cheer for my soldiers why? becuase they protect me out of their own free will. If I could I would fight with them. Our President is the best president ever. That stupid binoculars picture is edited. I saw the real one on tv. You be surpirsed how many talented people are around who uses photoshop. So many "I'M A LIBERAL! I'M A LIBERAL!" Idiots around. All they do is make things long and difficult. They make complete dumbasses of themselves. Their veiws are totally stupid. Give me a break already yeeshhhh! Poor Bill O'reily of the O'reily factor has to put up with so many stupid retards I'm surprised the guy is still sane. In short liberals are stupid. :rolleyes:

PS 400 POST MARK YEEEHAAAA

Luc Solar
03-23-2003, 02:21 AM
*I posted this in a Swamp-thread, but I'll copy-paste it here too.*


Are you kidding me?!? They put up US flags!?? :disaprove

Oh man, that is so tacky!

I watched Euronews "no comment" today for a while. They showed pictures from all over Iraq, but nothing really interesting until they zoomed in on some iraqi soldiers who had surrendered and were sitting in the sand with their hands behind their heads. One of them started walking towards a fellow soldier when a US-army dude jumped in the picture waving his gun and shouting: " SIT DOWN! SIT THE F*CK DOWN! SIT-THE-F*CK-DOWN!!!

And precisely at that moment, 3:27pm, Euronews switched to the weather forecast. :rolleyes:

Oh and another thing: I learned about the future plans the US has for Iraq.

A) When the war is over the country will be run by US general whateverhisnameis.

B) The role of UN is to stay out of the way when Yankees do their thing in Iraq.

C) After securing a US-friendly goverment, they will assign American consultants to every single bureau in the country. These consultants will tell exactly what will be done and what choices Iraqi people must choose.

D) All corporations must be denationalized.

E) Iraq must acknowledge Israel.


There are already deals made with US companies about the reconstruction of Iraq.

So to sum it up: Bush appoints a US-friendly leader/goverment to Iraq who'll surely make sweet oil-deals and whatever with americans. The UN can give all the humanitarian aid they want, as long as they don't mess with Bush's plans.

Now...if you'll excuse me, if must throw up. I'm disgusted. Shame on you mr. Bush. :(

*Any thoughts?*

Breton
03-23-2003, 06:44 AM
Originally posted by TheHobGoblin
LOL How stupid and vulcan like people are. When I say Home of the brave I mean it and it's true

Please watch "Bowling for Columbine".

I cheer for my soldiers why? becuase they protect me out of their own free will.

They protect you because they are paid for it. And they don't even protect you in the Iraq crisis, as the situation is far more dangerous now that you have attacked them,

Our President is the best president ever.

Give me one single reason on why you actually belive that. Bush has ruined the economy and made both Europe and the entire Arab world really pissed at you. If he's the best president ever, then there hasn't been any good presidents.

So many "I'M A LIBERAL! I'M A LIBERAL!" Idiots around. All they do is make things long and difficult. They make complete dumbasses of themselves. Their veiws are totally stupid. Give me a break already yeeshhhh! Poor Bill O'reily of the O'reily factor has to put up with so many stupid retards I'm surprised the guy is still sane. In short liberals are stupid.

Run out of arguments, have yeh? Obviously, you can't agrue against the belief of liberals, just call them stupid. I have other views on who's stupid here.

(BTW, I'm not liberal.)

ZBomber
03-23-2003, 11:08 AM
Originally posted by ET Warrior
While I think that George Bush is quite unintelligent, and probably not the best president we've ever had, he still is doing what he feels is necessary, and I quite frankly don't think he's a war monger.....i'll bet the public doesn't know 1/100th of the stuff that G.W. knows about the situation in Iraq, all they get is what they can find in the media.

Exactly. We might as well go to war now before Saddam become even stronger.

TheHobGoblin
03-23-2003, 11:15 PM
We must stop Iraq. They do have weapons. Bush is doing a great job and oh yea.... They did find a chemical weapons facelity in So Iraq. Some amazing U.N Inspectors you had there for a while :rolleyes:

SkinWalker
03-24-2003, 12:45 AM
Originally posted by TheHobGoblin
They did find a chemical weapons facelity in So Iraq.

Please post a link or reference to that information. The last I heard (this morning) was that WMDs had yet to be discovered, and that the search for them was not the focus of the war at this point. And well it should not be. Unit commanders need to be focused on battle-specific missions and not be side-lined to doing two things at once.

I'm interested in reading about the chem-weapons facility.

SkinWalker
03-24-2003, 12:55 AM
Originally posted by TheHobGoblin
Our President is the best president ever.

Actually I'd lean toward Lincoln, the Roosevelts, Kennedy, Carter and Reagan for differing reasons... Bush still has yet to prove himself.

Originally posted by TheHobGoblin
That stupid binoculars picture is edited.

I think I remember an article in one of the weekly newsrags that pointed out that he accepted the Binos from someone, realized they were capped, then un-capped them. As someone pointed out earlier, there just happened to be a lucky photographer handy.

Originally posted by TheHobGoblin
So many "I'M A LIBERAL! I'M A LIBERAL!" Idiots around. All they do is make things long and difficult. They make complete dumbasses of themselves. Their veiws are totally stupid.

It's interesting to point out that liberalism is not a bad thing. In fact, most of the progress that our country has enjoyed has come from "liberal" politicians and "liberal" administrations. It is the Republican Party machine that has, over the last few decades, used the word "liberal" as if it were profanity. Much the same way the word "communist" was used. It was fashionable up to a few years ago to call anyone that disagreed with American government "communist" as a way to slander them.

Nothing wrong with liberalism as long as it is balanced by conservatism and vice-versa. Too much of either is bad for the country.

Originally posted by TheHobGoblin
PS 400 POST MARK YEEEHAAAA

Congrats!

Chastan
03-25-2003, 10:37 AM
Originally posted by Luc Solar
There are already deals made with US companies about the reconstruction of Iraq.

So to sum it up: Bush appoints a US-friendly leader/goverment to Iraq who'll surely make sweet oil-deals and whatever with americans. The UN can give all the humanitarian aid they want, as long as they don't mess with Bush's plans.

Now...if you'll excuse me, if must throw up. I'm disgusted. Shame on you mr. Bush. :(

*Any thoughts?*

-- Lots of countries are trying to get bids on business in Iraq
-- The new government will be supervised by the U.N.
-- For the short term the oil companies will still operate under the food-for-oil program
-- Long term I forgot what but they were discussing all this with the British Secertary of State (is that the title?) in the House of Commons yesterday, or the day before.

Luc Solar
03-25-2003, 11:22 AM
-- Lots of countries are trying to get bids on business in Iraq....The new government will be supervised by the U.N


Yeah.. well that is just about what everyone is hoping.

What I heard on the news is a totally different story however.

In that program the UN had no role. And if you got a US-friendly goverment, guess who will be getting all the sweet deals? Some Swedish company? :rolleyes: I don't think so...

Franks will be the ruler of Iraq for as long as it takes to for THE US to appoint a suitable goverment. And THE US assigns consultants all over Iraq to make sure that things are done exactly the way BUSH wants.

Am I the only one who sees a problem here? :confused:

Chastan
03-25-2003, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by Luc Solar
Yeah.. well that is just about what everyone is hoping.

What I heard on the news is a totally different story however.

In that program the UN had no role. And if you got a US-friendly goverment, guess who will be getting all the sweet deals? Some Swedish company? :rolleyes: I don't think so...

Franks will be the ruler of Iraq for as long as it takes to for THE US to appoint a suitable goverment. And THE US assigns consultants all over Iraq to make sure that things are done exactly the way BUSH wants.

Am I the only one who sees a problem here? :confused:

And I thought the news wasn't trustworthy? The way you really find out what's going to happen is to watch what the politicians are saying. Watch the house of commons, watch the senate.

C'jais
03-25-2003, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by Chastan
And I thought the news wasn't trustworthy? The way you really find out what's going to happen is to watch what the politicians are saying.

Because as we all know by now, politicians always speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

;)

Chastan
03-25-2003, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by C'jais
Because as we all know by now, politicians always speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

;)
Same with the news.

SkinWalker
03-25-2003, 01:29 PM
The trick is to balance information from various news services (I try to be sure to catch BBC News for an outside perspective) as well as hear all sides of issues with media and politicians.

Doing this makes it easier to formulate your own views. I ask myself: what are the facts in the situation? What are the opinions? How do they support the facts? Are their facts that cannot give credibility to opinions? Do those that think different from me have valid points? What are they? Could they be right?

The trick to figuring out what's going on isn't to find the answers.... it's to find the right questions.

Check this link (http://cryptome.sabotage.org/iraq-booty.htm) to get an interesting perspective.

Breton
03-25-2003, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by TheHobGoblin
We must stop Iraq. They do have weapons. Bush is doing a great job and oh yea.... They did find a chemical weapons facelity in So Iraq. Some amazing U.N Inspectors you had there for a while :rolleyes:

You have failed to prove they have. Innocent until proven guilty. And tell me: If they did have weapons, then why the helheim haven't they used them? I'm having more and more reason to belive USA knew that Iraq didn't have weapons. I mean, why else would they be so negative against the weapon inspectors in the first place? Why else would they present forged evidence to the SC?

And about the chemical weapons factory: The news comes from Fox News, the worst example of propaganda in USA. And of course, no one has ever said that it was a chemical weapons factory. They only suspect it.

And about the Weapon Inspectors: I'm sure you would do a much better job, right?

Luc Solar
03-25-2003, 02:20 PM
What happened to that chemical weapon factory? Some anonymous Pentagon employee said that there was as huge camouflaged WOMD-factory somewhere in the desert.

I'd really like to see some footage of that. Why aren't they showing any?

And where are all the happy liberated Iraq citizens? So much talk, so little proof.

I'm confused. Are they all out of film? Did everyone accidentally drop and brake their cameras or what? :confused:

ZBomber
03-25-2003, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn
Innocent until proven guilty.

Thats for the US court, NOT War.

daring dueler
03-25-2003, 04:29 PM
i think we have prooven enough guilt against the iraqi govt.

Breton
03-25-2003, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by daring dueler
i think we have prooven enough guilt against the iraqi govt.

Then where is the evidence? Burned in a forest fire? Stolen by bug-eyed martians?

Reborn Outcast
03-25-2003, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn
Then where is the evidence? Burned in a forest fire? Stolen by bug-eyed martians?

How about the 3000 Kurdish people gassed some years ago, or the athletes that were killed or beaten for not winning by Saddam's eldest son?

daring dueler
03-25-2003, 09:27 PM
why yes burning in the forest next to whinnie the pooh and chris robbin!
i agreee with reborn outcast thats why.
his murder, cover ups, innocent gassings, rape rooms!
not enough for you?

Luc Solar
03-26-2003, 02:51 AM
Well...most goverments, the people and the UN do not agree with you on that.

Not liking Saddam is not reason enough to bomb a country.

There are probably a dozen other countries with mad, fanatic leaders and starving, oppressed people.

If the US is not a hypocrit with ulterior motives, they will continue and drop their bombs in all these countries too, right?

Or perhaps this "bad leader who must be removed"-thingie is spiced with some other motives? Personal vendetta? WOMD's? Oil? Evil Sionist Plot? (LOL!) Opening a new huge market to US companies? etc.etc.

The thing is... before you attack, you should have enough proof. Clearly the US did not come through with that.
The UN said "no", Bush said "whatever, we'll attack anyways". THAT is the problem.

Breton
03-26-2003, 06:31 AM
I think some people here has watched too much Fox News.

ZBomber
03-27-2003, 09:30 AM
Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn
I think some people here has watched too much Fox News.

I think some people are in denile. :rolleyes:

daring dueler
03-27-2003, 04:12 PM
in denile of fox news? or a govt of the world being wrong?

SkinWalker
03-28-2003, 01:43 PM
Since this thread is entitled "Bush...... My President," I thought I'd offer further evidence of the corrupt nature of the Bush administration.

Richard Perle, head of the Defense Policy Board and appointed by D. Rumsfeld, has been exposed as lining his pockets with kickbacks from potential/actual government contractors. Apparently he was to receive a $725, 000 fee for securing a government contract with Global Crossing (the recently bankrupted), $600, 000 of which would be paid once the contract was approved by the Pentagon. I'd call that a serious incentive to influence approval.

This is the same guy that was the foreign policy advisor for Bush during his Presidential campaign.

It should also be noted that this potential contract with Global Crossing is about setting up Homeland Security. Do we really want to trust a company on the same fiscal level as Worldcom and Enron to security of our homeland?

Perle is also a managing partner in Trireme Partners L. P., which invests in businesses that deal with technology, goods and services that have to do with Homeland Security.

This creates a very clear conflict of interest in between his Governmental position as head of the Defense Policy Board and Trireme. He is considered a special government employeed and subject to the federal codes of conduct, which prohibit using position to take make personal profit beyond the governmental pay scale.

These links give more detailed descriptions.

Richard Perle in the Wall Street Journal (http://cryptome.org/perle-apes.htm)

Richard Perle in the New Yorker (http://newyorker.com/fact/content/?030317fa_fact)

There is a bit in the New Yorker article about his influence over the whole Iraq War thing as well. But this goes to show that the primary motivations of the members of the Bush Administration (as well as Bush himself) is to make the rich richer.