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RenegadeOfPhunk
03-15-2003, 11:30 PM
Hi guys,

I believe my mod is now at the stage where it can go 'open Beta'.
It is avaliable for general download at:

Movie Battles (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/richard.hart4/)

The aim of this mod is to more accurately create the look and feel of star wars battles from the movies.

I am currently in the process of writing up a proper manual for the game.

Quick description of the classes:

Jedi:
-----
Access to force powers and light saber.
Saber defense on right mouse button. (Instead of saber throw)

If your saber defense is at level 3, you can access a new style of saber fighting. This is achieved by holding down both left and right mouse buttons. The ready position will now be with the saber held above your head. (Except when standing still...)
To attack, let go of the right mouse button. Hold down the right mouse button again to stop.
Another way to attack is to TAP the right mouse button which, if timed correctly, can result in very fast, consecutive attacks.

Soldier
---------
Weak health, armour and weapons, but 2 extra 'lives' per round

Hero
------
Good weapon selection, and the ability to regenerate health.

Mandalorian
----------------
Excellent variety of weapons, good armour and jetpack. (Now in controls menu)


There are 3 new cvars for this mod:

g_RoundTime
-----------------
This alters the amount of time each game round lasts. Valid settings are between 2 and 4 (minutes).
An extra minute is automatically added for team games.
Default setting is 3

g_botclass
--------------
This specifies what class bots are assigned to:
0 = Random
1 = Soldier (default)
2 = Jedi
3 = Mandalorian

g_timePeriod
-----------------
This specifies what models are allowed in the game
1 = EU models
2 = Original Trilogy models
4 = Prequel models

To combine time periods, add together the values.
e.g. Default = 3. This combines EU and OT models.

NOTE: You will need the appropiate models downloaded to play in OT and Prequel modes. See details on the site.

More details
here. (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=92785)

Please see a few posts down for the list of models you will need, their creators and where you can download from...

I'll put more up as I remember it!!

razorace
03-16-2003, 12:20 AM
Please explain more about what the saber changes are. :)

master_thomas
03-16-2003, 12:37 AM
I downloaded it off the link and can't get it to work:(.
I tried putting the folders in the Movie Battles folder, but it didn't show up in the mods selection screen so I put them in a pk3 inside the folder and I get the music, but when it starts, I get an error message about a mixup in client/server or something like that.

ERROR
client/server game mixup:
jk-1/team assault .01b

I think that's what the error is.

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-16-2003, 12:45 AM
The main saber changes:

1. Saber throw has been removed. (Only one reference to it in any movie - and that's a stretch) and replaced with saber defense. When pressed, your ability to block both blaster fire and enemy saber attacks are increased.
The higher your saber defense level, the better the chance you will block without defense held. But even at level 3, your chance of blocking without defense held is less than 50%
While defense is held down, you are forced to a walking pace. This is not only a balancing tool to slot the Jedi into more of a protector / guardian role, but also to try and create more movie-realistic movement. (It is rare for a Jedi to be moving full-pace while blocking...)

2. The new saber-style described above, which is meant to simulate the kind of style which Anakin used at the end of AOTC with Dooko.
It is weak defensively, you can be easiely hit, but your attacks start mid-swing, so they make contact with your target quicker. Also, by tapping the mouse button, as described above, you can fire off very quick volleys of attacks which have the potential of killing off your opponent before they have a chance to do you any real damage.
This style is NOT meant for battling gun-wielding classes - only other Jedi's.
And also, I would suggest not constantly using the style. I, personally, have found it best to only switch to it when I know my opponent has been weakened, to quickly deliver the killing blow...
Although I'm sure people will find ways to use it I haven't thought of...

3. Sticky sabers. Short saber locks can occur during normal saber combat. This is mainly to make saber combat look more real, although it does end up changing the nature and tactics of saber combat itself...

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-16-2003, 12:52 AM
master_thomas:

what do you mean by 'putting the folders in the Movie Battles folder'..?

You just need to put the .pk3 file into the Movie Battles folder and that's it.

e.g.

C:/Program Files/LucasArts/Star Wars JK II Jedi Outcast/GameData/Movie Battles/MovieBattlesvB4.pk3

Also, you do have 1.04 right? :)

Also, check you haven't put any game mod .pk3's into your base folder...

master_thomas
03-16-2003, 01:08 AM
I copied the folder from my unzip folder into gamedata and renamed to Movie Battles. I tried to run, but nothing happened so I looked inside. There were the folders and no pk3 so I put them into a pk3 in the Movie Battles folder. The theme music played and the disable force option disappeared, but I get that error when I try to start a game.

I do have 1.04.

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-16-2003, 01:19 AM
I'm not exactly sure what your doing, but just to make sure you understand:

* You don't have to unzip or otherwise open the .pk3 file. You just need to copy it to the right place.
* Did you just say that you re-named the GameData directory?! If so, don't! Put it back how it was!

Try and put your files and folders back to how they were before you attempted to install, and then follow these steps in order:

1. Create a new folder called 'Movie Battles' INSIDE your GameData directory. (You don't need to re-name ANY existing directories)
2. Download MovieBattlesvB4.pk3 from the site.
3. Put the file into the new Movie Battles folder.

Then just start-up, and it should be in the Mods list...

If it's not, don't do anything more. If you've followed those steps correctly, then there's no reason why it shouldn't be showing up. Post back here if it's not working at that point...

arief_9
03-16-2003, 03:37 AM
I never had this problem. If it still not working try to delete all your mods in the base folder.

SettingShadow
03-16-2003, 04:10 AM
those Wordpad docs wont open for me... could you please list the models needed? :)

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-16-2003, 08:36 AM
Apologies to those who can't open the word documents - I guess Word XP docs maybe aren't backwards-compatible anymore...

Anyway, here's a list of the Original Trilogy models, their creators, and where you can download:

Michael Frost, Adam Lee, Arco Fergerson
Darth Vader (Cheshire_arco_vader.pk3)
http://www.jk2files.com/file.info?ID=3951

Sniper Wolf, Kman, Toonces:
Dash Rendar (glm_dash_rendar.pk3)
http://www.jk2files.com/file.info?ID=7145

Major Clod:
Han Solo (mc_hansolo.pk3)
http://www.jk2files.com/file.info?ID=7779

BloodRiot & Absath:
Mandalorian models (Mandalorian.pk3)
http://www.jk2files.com/file.info?ID=2762

Kevin Coyle:
Old Ben Kenobi (KC_OldBenKenobibiv1.pk3)
http://www.jk2files.com/file.info?ID=10765

Major Clod:
Wookiee (wookiee.pk3)
http://www.jk2files.com/file.info?ID=3349

Kavis:
Rebel Elite
Download link (http://www.jediknightii.net/files/index.php?link=file&id=923)

Eric Landreneau:
Royal Guard
Download link (http://www.jediknightii.net/files/index.php?link=file&id=776)



=======================
And here's the PREQUEL models:
=======================

Chris Guererman:
The clones model pack (glm_clonepilot.pk3 & glm_clonetrooper.pk3)
http://www.jk2files.com/file.info?ID=4533

Vincent “Vahl” Joyah:
Anakin Skywalker (glm_anakin.pk3)
http://www.jk2files.com/file.info?ID=6278

Prophet & Major Clod:
Battle Droid (zbattledroid.pk3)
http://www.jk2files.com/file.info?ID=4786

Kman, Grafox, Toonces, Luuke, Garik Loran:
Count Dooko (glm_dooko.pk3)
http://www.jk2files.com/file.info?ID=4164

Adam “Cheshire” Lee, Kurtis “Kman” Smith & “Arco” Furgerson:
Darth Maul(glm_Maul_Model.pk3)
http://www.jk2files.com/file.info?ID=3287

Psyk0Sith:
Ki Adi Mundi (kiadi1.1.pk3)
http://www.jk2files.com/file.info?ID=5046

Toonces, Arco:
Kit Fisto (ct_fisto.pk3)
http://www.jk2files.com/file.info?ID=6028

Toonces, Arco, Deetox, Tex360:
Mace Windu (ct_windu.pk3)
http://www.jk2files.com/file.info?ID=8779

Tex360, Toonces, Arco, Deetox, Wolf-Devil, Sithlord, quamosity:
Qui-Gon Jinn (tex_quigon.pk3)
http://www.jk2files.com/file.info?ID=8781

SkinMan, Nanodagiardino:
Sirne (sirne.pk3)
http://www.jk2files.com/file.info?ID=4862

Tex360, Toonces, Arco, Mars:
Ep.I OB1 Kenobi
Download link (http://www.jediknightii.net/files/index.php?link=file&id=1087)

SettingShadow
03-16-2003, 09:03 AM
No Ep1. Obi-wan? oh well... anyway, great mod, I really enjoy playing with it.

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-16-2003, 09:09 AM
I looked for a prequel OB1 model, but I couldn't find one I could actually download sucsessfully :)

If anybody can provide me with a link, I'll happily get him into the next build.
And if anybody has any other specific requests for models they'd like to see included, feel free to ask. Although I do reserve the right to not include models I don't think are:

a. Of a good enough quality

OR

b. Don't fit in with the 'realism' concept...

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-16-2003, 09:22 AM
Another couple of quick points:

Holocron, Jedi Master and Duel game types now don't work correctly, and are not supported in this mod.
I actually meant to make them unavaliable in the menu's, but it's one of those things that slipped though :rolleyes:

I may look at getting this gametypes supported, but I've gotta say, it's not a big priority for me at the moment.
We'll have to see...

Secondly, I've noticed that the model names are all showing up as (null)!
This is one of those annoying things that happen differently between running in debug, and then running the .qvm's!
I'll sort it for the next build...

master_thomas
03-16-2003, 10:38 AM
Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk

* Did you just say that you re-named the GameData directory?! If so, don't! Put it back how it was!

No. I never changed the name of any existing directories.

I put the pk3 in the movie battles directory.

master_thomas
03-16-2003, 10:50 AM
I got it to work:). I didn't do anything, but now it works.

Very nice job, but it causes my game to crash sometimes.

wassup
03-16-2003, 03:17 PM
Heres a nice Ep 1 Obi model.

Btw, great mod, dling right now! :D

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-16-2003, 04:24 PM
Thx man,

But - where is the Ob1 model...?

master_thomas
03-16-2003, 04:34 PM
I just played it and love it.

Now for test feedback:

Several suggestions for the final version: Faster force regeneration(the force is now unrealistically slow and bad for large fights)


Rechargeable jetpack fuel: I felt that it wasn't much good unless you could use it more. To reinforce this, I searched and found that Jango Fett's jetpack runs on rechargeable fuel cells.


The ability to make bots into heroes.


The soldiers are much to accurate. A tk-421 killed me with a blaster rifle several times from across the level. Bots are too good in most classes.


Maybe when the mindtrick is on in team, you won't shoot while enemies are in the crosshair(like you already have), but you will also constantly shoot while allies are in the crosshair.


Pickups: I tested this and found that you won't completely run out of all ammo, but one rocket and 15 shots from the disruptor per match? Big problem for heavy snipers. There also seems to be a small bug in the ammo counter for the disruptor: you can see the top of a digit in the tens place: sort of like this:

;2(not an actuall semi colon, but that is the closest thing I can get.)


The ability to change your class without it crashing.


Slightly increase the fire rate of the pistol.


The following won't affect this really and are just graphic pleasers:


Two pistols. I know this is possible because they are doing it in forcemod2.


A custom menu: just seems to need one.

_____________________________________________


I do like the new mindtrick. It is more accurate to the original movies.


Good music.


The AI makes the bots better with this new saber combat system than the previous. They know when to use block.

More accurate saber combat with the new stance and defense.


Nice new pistol model and sound.


I can see this as being great for large team ffa or ctf: send soldiers to get the flag with mandolorians and heroes sniping, rocketing, etc. while the jedi stand next to the flag. Great for warring factions.


Overall, it is an excellent mod that is fun to play.

wassup
03-16-2003, 05:45 PM
GOD DAMN I am an idiot...forgot to give you the link...:o

http://www.jediknightii.net/files/index.php?link=file&id=1087

I'm so stupid...:p

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-16-2003, 05:49 PM
master_thomas:

Thx for the feedback man. Glad you like overall...

I purposefully reduced force regen for several reasons, to do with game balance, movie realism and to stop spamming powers. I personally think it adds to the game being lower. It forces you to be more conservative with your powers. Making you only use them when nessesary, and can make the end of the round more tense if you find yourself with low force power...

However, I've had other people ask me to make it a bit higher too. If it turns out most poeple aren't happy with the lower regen level, then I'll upp it a bit in the next build..

Interesting fact about the jetpack. Ok, I'll consider that for the next build too...

The soldier accuracy is dependent on the skill level you assign to the bots. (Padawan, Jedi etc.)
If you drop it to a low level, they can't shoot for s**t!

I don't like the idea of increasing the amount of ammo for the disruptor. I think it's a bad idea having overly powerful, one-shot weapons in an LMS game. (For evidence of this, ask most CS players what they think of the AWP!)
With reduced ammo, it's OK though, cos you can't over-use it...
Again, I want to wait and see what other people think before making a descision.

The rocket is actually suppost to represent the rocket on the Jetpack :) Eventually, I want to get it so that THAT fires rather than having a seperate rocket launcher weapon...

Hmm - the crashing's a pain. I've had a couple of other people mention it to, but I can't get it to happen on mine. I'll look into it...

I don't know about that extra mind-trick idea. Just because a Jedi convinces you he's one of your friends, doesn't mean you suddenly go mental and start attacking your other friends!

Yeah, I think the pistol rate is probably too low. I'll upp it a bit..

I may have good news about ForceMod related features soon... :)

Yeah - and good point about the custom menu. You know anybody good who can knock some up for me..? :)

Thanks for mentioning the stuff you like :)
Just to let you know, I want to eventually get proper objective-type play in - but that won't be for a while...

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-16-2003, 05:53 PM
wassup:

thx for the link man, but I've already tried it. The file server on this site is down for the moment. It has been for a while now...

Guess I have to wait until they sort stuff out...

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-16-2003, 06:05 PM
sorry thomas, didn't answer one of your questions.

Use the g_botclass cvar to change the class bots are assigned to:

0 = random
1 = soldier
2 = jedi
3 = mandalorian (villans) / heros (heroes)

Jman3ooo
03-16-2003, 09:14 PM
Anyone want to get together play this with reak players?

Bots are getting boring.

razorace
03-16-2003, 09:48 PM
reak players? Do they smell bad? :D

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-17-2003, 12:57 PM
Well, I don't reak or anything ( or at least I'm pretty sure I don't - I had a bath this morning... ;) ) but I'm certainly up for getting some peeps together and getting a proper game going! I still haven't been able to get involved in a real, proper ruck yet, and I'm dying to see how it works out. Hopefully I've got these classes right... :eek:

I'm in the UK, so might be difficult to get a good time compatible with my Yankie brothers! ;)
Weekends might be the best time to try and organise something I guess...

Who else is up for it? :D

master_thomas
03-17-2003, 02:08 PM
Three new things:

1. What does "dodgy trace..." mean? It comes up on the top left of my screen every once in a while while playing "Movie Battles".

2.I get the error "ERROR: event_param above MAX STATS" in the top left sometimes. Neither it nor number one seem to affect the game.

3. When I'm a mandolorian, sometimes in spectator mode it messes up the leader board with the wrong score. I had 8 and it said
"
Thomas
(Boba pic)
Leader:-1" lol


I'm in, but I live in the U.S. so we may have a timing problem like you said.

My question about heros; I meant, how do you decide the team (villans or heroes)(red or blue) bots are on? The jedi all use the darkside, lightning spamming all the time; thanks for the saber block:). #3 are all mandolorians in red armor.

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-17-2003, 03:19 PM
thomas:

Those error messages are just some debug stuff I put in to help me sort out some problems. Just ignore them. I'll take them out of the next build.

I know exactly what that problem is with the score. Basically, the kills / deaths score is a totally new system, but the one in the top-right still uses the old score value. Easiely fixed - I'll sort it for the next build too.

I'm pretty flexible on the weekends (I'm as rigid as a board during the week! ;) ). If we get the game going, say, late at night here, that should be early evening for you guys.

No - mandalorian bots should come in four flavours! Basically, the four jetpack-less models in the Mandalorian models pack. I think 2 are Red (1 with cape and one without cape), 1 yellow and one blue...

Unfortunately, you can't assign certain class bots to certain teams at this point. I may try and get that in for the next build, but to be honest, this is something I wanted to talk to you and the rest of the community about...

You see, bots have never been a high priority for me. I'd much rather spend time getting more cool features in to make playing with real players better. Bots are handy to even unbalanced teams (in which case exactly what class it is isn't really that important...), and for testing - but apart from that, I meant this mod to be primarily played online with other people...

Also consider that I'd say nearly half my time spent developing the mod so far has been trying to get bots working properly with all the changes I've been making (no joke!)...

Let me put it this way - If I say - 'If I don't spend any more time providing bot-specific features, I can get x-y- and z stuff added in the same time' - would you still want full bot support? Personally, I'd much rather concentrate on getting the game working REALLY well when played with other people, rather than diverting a lot of that time to making sure bots work flawlessly.

Do you see what I'm saying? I guess it depends on whether you REALLY need proper bot support in this mod. If you can live without it, I could get a lot more cool stuff in quicker.
The problem at the moment, of course, is that I've only just got this thing avaliable, so of course no-one's playing it online yet! But assuming it starts to get played more, you might be glad I didn't spend too much time on bot stuff.

Let me know what you think...

BloodRiot
03-17-2003, 11:24 PM
From what i've seen (tested by my own.. couldnt find online server) It's great and shows awesome potential.

My Fetts never looked so cool before :)

The class system is great (I never did like to see a lightsaber in the hands of a stormtrooper anyway).

The removal of saber throw and it's current replacement seems a good choice.

The removal of certain force power also seems interesting so that fight is based upon sabering and not so much force as im used to see out there.

Well... basically it all adds up to a very high thumbs up and hopes that it gets better.

One request... if it's within your "know how" range... you MUST get some more of the SP combat maneuvers working .... but maybe only active during DUEL mode in FFA so that it doesnt end up looking like the jedi/sith acrobat circus is in town ;)

Now im off to see if i can find any server running this thing :)

Good Work... and keep it up.

Cheers.

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-17-2003, 11:45 PM
Well, I have to say, a complement like that coming from you BloodRiot is a complement indeed.
Once I saw the simply awesome mandalorian models you were involved in making, I just knew I had to get those guys rockin' proper stylie!! :D

Your models were a central inspiration for this mod. Great work! :)

And I certainly plan to keep working on it. There's still lots more I want to do...

As far as I know, no servers are running this yet. To be honest, I haven't really publicised it too much. It's still officially a beta version. (There's still a few issues to sort before I call it an official release..)
A few of us are trying to organise a game though. (Possibly for this weekend... guys?). Watch this thread for more details...

As far as saber combat goes, I'm gonna try my best, but trying to get the MP combat EXACTLY like SP is quite a tall order. Lag for one thing could be a factor which could not only make this impossible, but also in a way unwise. i.e. it might be better to admit that because there is a lag factor, you actually need to take that into account and therefore make the MP combat slightly different - at a fundemental level.
Although this is just speculation to a certain extent. My main aim has been to get MP saber combat to look more movie-realistic, not nessesarily more SP-like, although both aims are very close...
We'll have to see. Incidently, I'd be interested in your opinion on the short saber locks I've implemented. Do you think their in the right direction, or no...?

BloodRiot
03-18-2003, 03:53 AM
Well.. I'll answer your question about saber locks as soon as i can see them working ;p

I had to create a server to play this since i couldnt find a server online.

But I'll try to extrapolate some scenarios using my vulcan logical computing... (yeah right)

Saber locks should indeed be as frequent as an average 1 to 2 saber locks per fight... less than 1 is practically like the orginal game.. and more than 2 or 3 saber locks per fight/duel tends to get boring (and might lead to mouse replacements due to overused left mouse button) so be careful there.

In my defense... didnt meant saber dueling exactly like SP... i know that's a tough cookie... i just meant adding some moves from SP like the famous cartwheels and butterflies without replacing the regular roll moves

I had thought about using the saber defense button to toggle between those actions... like...when not defending the character performs normal rols and flips etc... when defending if you roll left or right fer instance.. you'd see a cartwheel.
Seems logical since those moves are dodging moves.
You can always go for the double tap left/right/back/forward a la Unreal Tournament ;p
Just a few examples.

Well.. that's it for now... like i said before keep up the good work...and hope to see something soon (this weekend... guys?) ;p

Cheers

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-18-2003, 04:03 AM
...I like your examples!! I think I was mis-reading your points earlier. The stuff you've just mentioned is definetly worth looking into...! To do the kind of special moves your describing while in defence mode would be awesome!

You can play against Jedi bots if you want. Set the g_botclass cvar to 2. Here's a list of the possible values again...

0 = Random <- (Give this a go...)
1 =Soldier (default)
2 = Jedi
3 = Hero / Mandalorian

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-18-2003, 07:23 AM
Woohoo!

Looks like the jkii.net file server is back up and online...

Now I can get some cool new models into the next build - including prequel OB1 :)

wedge2211
03-18-2003, 11:30 AM
A suggestion on saber lock: Can you make it work differently than who can click the mouse button more? That, I found, was really annoying and totally arbitrary. I would say just hold the button down, but then the lock would be senseless. Here's my idea: some combination of the attack button (pushing really hard, but it tips you off-balance a little), lightsaber defense button (right mouse - stable stance, but not pushing AGIANST your opponent), moving relative to your opponent (if you're moving toward them, you push harder, if you move away, then they push a little less and they end up off-balance a little, but you wouldn't actually move since the lightsabers are locked, this only represents a push), and force power (more aggressive moves would drain force a bit [NOT TOO MUCH!], otherwise force is drained at a miniscule rate). If your opponent is "off-balance," they are more vulnerable to your pushes against them, but if you just sit there holding the defense and backpedal buttons, then they would overcome you eventually, which give you some incentive to try a little strategy. Also, the outcome, or maybe the different options you have available in a lock, should depend on saber stance. (IMO, the special stance of yours should have the option to whip the saber out of the lock and make a quick strike against the opponent. This would not deal enough damamge to kill, and would drain lots of force power, and leave you open to a caounterattack.)

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-18-2003, 11:46 AM
Wedge:

All good ideas!

I must admit, I'm happy enough at this point to have got the short saber locks in at all to start with - I think their definetly a step in the right direction. They do achieve one thing quite well for me - and that is make the combat look closer to the movies.

But your certainly right - their's a lot more potential for better play and tactics which isn't being exploited with the saber locks at present.

However, these ideas are easy to say, but the details of the implementation can get quite tricky...

I'll keep working on it... :)

wedge2211
03-18-2003, 03:27 PM
Hehe, if you don't mind a non-modder making complex suggestions, I can always fill in details on that idea for you! I kow enough about programming to have the rough idea that it wouldn't take TOO much more than a couple extra variables and some manipulations of them depending on inputs, but I don't know anything about JKII coding.

Good luck with the rest of the mod!

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-18-2003, 04:46 PM
:)

It's one thing to set up the variables which keep track of the various conditions to determine each players 'locking' strength...
It's another thing to get the saber locks to reflect these conditions in a nice, asthetically pleasing manner...!

Don't get me wrong, it's not super complex or anything, but it's certainly not as simple as setting up a few variables!!

But as I say, I'll look into it. Most probably I'll be able to get something like you've described in without too much of a problem...

Littleman206
03-19-2003, 06:11 AM
Nice mod i gotta say, one problem though.
Dont get me wrong the mods great EXCEPT, whever i go jedi, it keeps my previous force settings(i know this is supposed to happen) however, that means i lose the additional point I usually spend on throw and I still get to use protect/absorb/drain/rage in game. So if theres someway for you to wipe out previoulsy saved force settings that'd be nice and maybe remove there pre designed force "classes"(e.g baldemsater, swashbuckler etc.) as they give you proficiency in these powers and you can then use them in the game.

Also I'm npt sure if its intended, but it only takes a single zoomed disruptor shot to kill bad guys, i.e you dont have to charge it up so you can still get off about 10-15 shots(takes around 4 each shot). Again not sure if this is intended but thought i should mention it. Finally, is there any way to change it so instead of having LMS rules(not remove them altogether) you can have certain respawn times, for the feel of a contineous battle, kinda like team fortress. Could give Jedi and heroes around 15-30 seconds while soldiers only haev about 5 if any, so they still have there main advantage.

Fianlly, I hear you got some plans with force mod, how about you add in his merc classes? If not(as that would proably screw balance completely) atleast add duel PISTOLS(not blasters) also, the bounce emote( i think its bounce, basically its a quick push up) could be used for firing the rocket from the mandalorians back pack, or atleast look

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-19-2003, 07:08 AM
Littleman,

It's OK, no need to apologise for finding problems! Although this is avaliable for general release, it's still officially a beta - which means I'm still working on tying up all the loose ends etc.

I thank you for trying out the mod and finding these issues for me - so that I can sort them! :)

Wow - I missed those loopholes you've found with the force powers.
Won't be hard to stop that happenning though - it's now on the list for the next build...

As far as the disruptor, it depends what class of 'bad guys' your talking about.
Soldiers can be killed with one non-charged blast, but I don't think this is a problem. The soldiers are meant to die relatively easiely.
Other classes are harder to kill. Hero's and Jedi's probably don't need a full charge to kill since they have no armour, but Mandalorians - I believe - require at least nearly a full charge to kill them with full health and armour.
Although, these are just estimates. I haven't actually bothered to check exactly how much charge is required for each class...

If I do end up doing a code sharing deal with Azymnn (this looks very likely at this point...), I'm not going to be simply bolting his classes onto my game directly - mainly because they've been designed with quite different gamplay in mind. I'm going to be excracting a lot of the super kool Mandalorian toys and incorporating them into the existing Mandaloian class.
And yes, this will include dual pistols (and NOT dual blasters - I agree!)
Plus, I'm sure all the saber colour / hilts and model scaling stuff will keep people happy too...

I'll have to look into that bounce emote. (Haven't used emotes as yet... )

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-19-2003, 07:39 AM
Sorry, forgot to answer the re-spawning question...

I'm assuming you wanted your idea to be an option, so that you could have it as it is now, or how you described in your post -depending on the server.
If not - i.e. you wanted your idea 'instead' of the way it is now, I prefer the way it is now!

If you meant an option - this is certainly possible. But I have my reservations about having options which alter the basic gameplay rules too much.

You end up in the situation where before you join a server, you have to read a big checklist telling you what gameplay options are on or off...
Coupled with this is the fact that it's easier to get balance and gameplay right if you concentrate on one, specific, focused gametype. Every option you add to a game to make sure you keep as many people as possible happy, the harder it becomes to make sure the game is going to play well, no matter what combination of options you have set.

In short, I want to keep the gameplay in this mod focused on one type of play. And that means keeping down the options. Sure, some people aren't going to like this specific type of play, but I'd rather make a sub-set of people REALLY happy rather than try and keep everyone happy, but potentially end up with a milk-warm game which a lot of people think is OK, but no-one LOVES...

razorace
03-19-2003, 09:09 AM
I wouldn't go that far. Mechwarrior 4 is an excellent example of a game with enough options for extended game value but set up in a way where you can always find the type of game you want. (Except for Force First Person to stop the filthy jump snipers. They didn't put in a filter for that. doh!)

Anyway, I know we disagree on this but please don't knock all the great games with a huge variety of fun game that ARE easy to just hop into. :)

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-19-2003, 09:21 AM
Please take all my comments with a small disclaimer at the bottom:

'This is just my point of view'.

I'm not trying to dis games which have a wide variety of options. I'm just trying to explain why I think the concept of not having too many options is possibly a good thing - because a lot of people can't initially understand why i wouldn't want to put options in which try to keep all players happy.

Whether it is actually 'right' or 'wrong' is for individual gamers to decide...

And remember, what you consider 'easy' is not nessesarily what other people regard as 'easy'...

e.g. Ask a console gamer whether they think setting up and playing an average PC game is 'easy'...

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-19-2003, 03:09 PM
I've had another person mention the game crashing at some point.

I simply cannot reproduce this.

Could anybody who's had a crash tell me under what circumstances the crash happens.
I know someone mentioned when changing classes. Can you remember whether you were still alive in the round? Or were you spectating?
Also, which class were you changing to and from.

And also, can you double check that you have the latest build. There was a problem which could potentially cause the game to crash I found in an earlier build, but I've fixed it in the latest one.

If you look at the .pk3 file in your MovieBattles folder, it should be MovieBattlesvB4.pk3. (Build 4).

If the number on the end of the file name is lower than this, you need to download the latest version from the site...

Master_Payne
03-19-2003, 03:39 PM
For some I got server disconnect when trying to load a map, so I can't test the crashing thing because I can't play it...
I'm the only one with this message (Its B4).
Thinking it may be my cstom cfg I restore the defaults, but still get the message...
I will keep searching ways to get out of this problem.

Jman3ooo
03-19-2003, 03:42 PM
I had this...

You need to turn off pure server.

Alesh
03-19-2003, 04:47 PM
Well i've noticed all sorts of weird things happening in the console when going to spectator mode/back to game (couldn't execute comand CMD somethingihadjustdoneintheconsole), apart from music stopping.

I also crashed to desktop very often (I think it was always when starting a new round or changing classes).

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-19-2003, 04:57 PM
Alesh,

Are you playing solo against bots when these crashes happen, or are you playing with at least one more real player connected...?

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-19-2003, 05:11 PM
*phew*

With Jman3ooo's help, I've managed to reproduce the little b*****d!
I'll be able to fix it now! :)

razorace
03-19-2003, 06:33 PM
yeah, crash bugs are a bastard to replicate sometimes. Y had this crash bug that I was very able to figure out. Ended up having to code it again from a back up.

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-19-2003, 06:55 PM
Eeeek!

Here's hoping that won't be nessesary in this case...!

I don't expect it to - I've had a couple of crashing problems with the mod, but once I'd found them they were fairly straight forward to fix...

Alesh
03-19-2003, 06:57 PM
I think it's a little late but anyway, it was with bots.

master_thomas
03-19-2003, 10:37 PM
I was the one who mentioned a crash when changing classes. It always happen when I switch between mandolorian and jedi (both ways). It happens when playing and spectating.

Speaking of which, sometimes I die as soon as I start, which probably has to do with trying to come out of spectating, but it happens when I first start a server and at the beginning of other rounds. It was just me and bots. Never played this with a human player.

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-20-2003, 04:11 AM
If your joining mid-game, and the game has progressed past the first warm-up round, I purposefully kill you as soon as you start, so that you can't join in the middle of the round. Just seemed cleaner that way...

You should also die when changing teams mid-game too, or when yuo change classes while not in spectate etc.

Although, this is not actually all working correctly. Still working through some glitches...

Littleman206
03-20-2003, 06:28 AM
Thanks for actually replyin, nice to know I helped out, and thanks for the great mod.
By the way my respawn idea was as an ALTERNATIVE,(as in an ingame selectable option) no way I'd make you replace somethin you'd been workin on for ages with my pipe-dream.
Is there anyway you can make the class choosing be kinda liek the forcemod one, you know where you go through the specialities, or maybe have a description somewhere for each, just so you know what you pickin.

Finally how about you give the villians team a Villlian class(as opposed to the hero CLASS the hero TEAM recieves), then heroes(TEAM) could get say a mercenary(just a bounty hunter for them) so that it evens out. UNLESS of course you did this to give some variation, Finally, anyway you can get the forth stance attached to 3 seperate styles, if not o well.

Lastly, anyway to make bounty hunters and heroes do rolls(there kinda acrobatic) Jedi's do cartwheels and the like(they're super acrobatic) and leave soliders out(they're unco balster-fodder) did you know soldier originally meant fodder? coz it did! anyways I'm ramblin, bye love the mod

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-20-2003, 06:56 AM
Yeah, would be nice to get details about the classes to come up in game. Although I am working on a proper manual...

Don't you think it would be wierd to see a hero player (rebel / republic) player flying around on a jetpack? There would be no reference in the movies for this...
That's my only problem I have with having a direct Mandalorian equivalent in the Heroes team. THat's why I kept Mandalorian's for the villans and the 'Heroes' for the Hero team. (Maybe I need to change the name - 'cos that gets a bit confusing!!)

I'll look into the acrobatic stuff, but their's no way I'm taking out the soldier class!!
Have you tried playing the soldier class out of interest? Only takes two soldiers to attack a Jedi from two different angles... Practically no waiting for the end of the round... Stormies all the way man!! I've got some of my best scores playing the soldier class...!

Littleman206
03-20-2003, 06:58 AM
SORRY! Bad, Bad wording, I didnt mean remove the soldiers, I love em and I LOVE versing lots of them with Jedi, I mean they dont get any rolling! SOrry for the misundersatnding.

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-20-2003, 07:14 AM
Ahh - right. I get ya!! :)

Yeah, your right - absolutely!
Only have the fancy moves for the Jedi and Mandalorian.. :)

Master_Payne
03-20-2003, 02:01 PM
It worked now (the pure server thing)
I tested with bots, changing clases inside a match and I didn't got any crash or error and the model is just great.

Is there any chance to include custom models into a specific class?
I have Jango Fett skin from Open seasons #3 (it rocks) and it would be cool if I can add it to the mandalorian class (maybe with a .cfg file or in a separeta .pk3)
If its possible please tell me how (begs).
Sorry for my "low quality" english :P

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-20-2003, 02:08 PM
You can - the changes will only show on your machine though. (I assume your not bothered by that...)

Step 1:
Extract the Mandalorian.pk3 to a temporary directory.
Step 2:
Delete all standard Jango Fett references.
Step 3:
Repack the .pk3.
Step 4:
Extract the new Jango Fett .pk3 to a temp directory
Step 5:
Rename whatever folder the model is in to 'Jango_Fett'
Step 6:
Repack the file

Put both these .pk3 files back in your base directory, and bobs your uncle! :)

Master_Payne
03-20-2003, 02:14 PM
Thanks, thanks and more thanks, THAT WAS QUICK!!!!
I'll keep playing and see what else I can found
did I thank you?
http://usuarios.lycos.es/jedimasterpayne/Mandalorians.jpg
those are my babies -lol-
actually they look better but my video card sux (not realeased, even not finished yet)

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-20-2003, 05:51 PM
Glad to be of service!

Yeah - they look pretty cool :)

master_thomas
03-20-2003, 09:15 PM
Back to soldiers, I already mentioned their power, but two soldiers(6-8 including reinforcements, but they come linearly and therefore are easier), especially stormies should not be able to kill a jedi or a mandolorian who is sniping (mandolorians or heroes) or standing there deflecting shots(jedi) with an e11 blaster rifle. They kill me like that as initiative and padawan bots from 200 yds.(estimate) away while I was relatively protected by a wall. That's pathetic. I'm not that bad and there is nothing wrong with my game's AI limiting systems. Jedi are supposed to be one of the most formidable groups of humanoids in the galaxy and mandolorians were "brutally effective". Heroes, well, what do you expect? You kill the stormies, workers, and imperials in the high hundreds in SP. Can you do something about that?

What about pickups? Perhaps limit certain ones to mandolorians, heroes and jedi or just mandolorians and heroes and give jedi some sort of bonus like better force powers. To give heroes more of a chance, limit some pickups to them alone. Mandolorians have all they need.

Hope this isn't too much of requests. Just trying to improve game balance.

Littleman206
03-20-2003, 11:08 PM
How about you split the soldier calss in to light/medium/heavy, or a just 2 of them, say scouts and assault.
I reckon it'd be cool if you had a quick scout/light class, with like a disruptor and rifle or something like that,
and an assault class, who's main advantage was they had one HUGE gun, like a clone gun(from SFX mod) or a reapeter, somethin like a starwars chaingun equivalent.
obvioulsy you could change there respawn amouns if need be for balance.

Just an idea, but i think its alright, Great Mod

Littleman206
03-21-2003, 03:20 AM
Okay, i got this idea okay, why not remove stun baton as mercs weapon and instead have some halfarsed punch animation in first person, and use the punch emote whenever you attack, therefore mercs could punch without holdin some stinky stun baton.
Also I figured If you played half of the cartwheel animation in reverse (if this is possible, as technically your stickin anythin new in) it could come out as a kick as a front kick, then if you combine this with saber defence idea you could give jedi a kick to(just attack while holding saber defence down, or while holding walk or crouch or soimethin). It could do a bit of knockback and say 5 or so damage, after all its just a kick, shields negate it to. This'd be nice i reckon, and would be much better then gay old stun baton, finally, how about using the head of the stun baton(the 'prongs') as a 'hook' on the end of the grappling cable? Also you could a\lways use the walk key to activate saber defence if you wanna keep throw in.

One last thing, can you make missile launcher completely blow poeple up, i.e all their pieces which can be dismemebered fly everywhere? Thatd be brilliat and make more sense, after all they just got hit by a large explosive.

One more thing, maybe push/pull should be unblockable, as they take heaps of force and it recharges real slow, and jump should have minimal cost, as Jedi are supposed to me quite manouverable.
Thanks for listening, bye!

Neř
03-21-2003, 04:32 AM
I'm not sure if anyone has said they could, but if you'd like I can make menus with dif music and images, but I don't know how to change all the buttons etc, but if you want, I could send you a menu that I've made.

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-21-2003, 05:04 AM
master_thomas,

when you were killed by the bots from across the level, were you facing them and actively blocking? Or were they shooting at you and you were caught unawares?

And if you think about it, unless you got through the game without dying once (which I doubt!), you actually did die PLENTY of times in the SP game. THe only reason you managed you get to the end is bacause you can load up the last auto-save and try again!

I know the Jedi is suppost to be uber-powerful. But you have to be able to die! Their's no game otherwise!

Littleman,

I'm guessing the stun baton thing is actually about ForceMod - not my mod. No-one has them in mine... ;)

I'll try and get some of this extra visual stuff in, but just to let you know, my main priority is gameplay. Not to say visual stuff isn't important, but it gets second priority to getting the gameplay right...

I'm tweaking the force power stuff for the next build, taking into account all the feedback I've gotten so far...

Neo,
If you could send me anything you have, that would be great...

E-mail: renegadeofphunk@3dactionplanet.com

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-21-2003, 05:21 AM
Littleman,

About your variety of soldier types idea, I like it.

I've been planning to get this in from the start, although it's gonna work slightly differently than you've described.

But it's going to end up being the same thing. You will end up not being just one, uniform soldier. (Or ANY class for that matter...)

Let me get this release out of the way before I start trying to figure out the details of that other stuff though. I'll let you know what I'm going to be adding soon ... :)

Master_Payne
03-21-2003, 12:05 PM
Well after play in all clases I found a little annoyance(?)

As Jedi I think is a good change slow the force regen time but playing I jump to face my oponent and run out of force for the entire battle, any chance to make jump free or half the force???
Keep the regen time, but the jump (most used force power) nows make impossible to use another.

The rest is just great.

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-21-2003, 12:27 PM
yeap - I'm definetly going to be reducing the amount of force Force Jump uses in the next build. Also, I'm going to increase the amount of force power you start with.
But I'm going to keep regen the same (or maybe upp it slightly, but not by much...)

Well, that's the current plan anyway. It could be subject to change, but I think that's the way to go right now...

wedge2211
03-21-2003, 03:02 PM
So you still have soldiers respawning multiple times? Wouldn't that kind of make them own in LMS games?

Jman3ooo
03-21-2003, 03:10 PM
Wedge try the mod....


Soilders have 3 respawns, however they only have 10 hp / 25 shield and a Blaser Rifle.

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-21-2003, 05:14 PM
Like Jman said :)

btw - I've fixed the crashing bug - so that'll be sorted when I put out the next build

Still working on getting class / model / team changes working totally glitch-free...

master_thomas
03-21-2003, 09:54 PM
Originally postes by RenegadeOfPhunk

And if you think about it, unless you got through the game without dying once (which I doubt!), you actually did die PLENTY of times in the SP game. THe only reason you managed you get to the end is bacause you can load up the last auto-save and try again!

True, but I went through some of the levels without dying and got kills in much higher numbers than 6,7, and 8 even with only a stun baton, blaster, and pistol.

I was facing him and watching from about 200yds.. He shot at me and suddenly, a soldier appeared behind me. I killed him and by then, the shots had come at alt fire speed and I couldn't escape. The inaccuracy of the gun made me get hit when I moved from the original spot, so I stopped moving and watched him and got shot three times straight and was basically trapped. I moved back for cover by the roof and started getting shot at by another in a similar position-

<------------>me:-
- _____________________-
- -
- -
_ _
_=enemies -=shots and me ____=roof of building


I quickly sniped him, but ran out of sniper shots so I tried shooting the first with the pistol(relying on accuracy), but didn't hit him so I tried the blaster rifle and got shot to death.

If it helps the description, I was on the roof of one of the buildings in the new ctf_massassi temple level, which is not available at jediknightii.net yet to my knowledge, but is available at massassi.net. They were on the ground in groups of plants.

Edit: Sorry, I forgot about the auto format. In the editing screen, the diagram looks right. Rely on my description please.

Smood
03-21-2003, 11:24 PM
Renegade you have something just wonderful here! Fantastic work. When I finally saw manual block and to my contentness, forced walk during this time, I was overjoyed. Even more so when I tried the mod.

I have a couple of additions you might want to make if your interested...

The suggestions get more and more difficult to implement as you move down, but more rewarding preportionally.

1) Redice blocking ability to almost 0% when block is not engaged (increase in skill).

2) Restrict jumping ability (i.e. one full force jump every so often), more of a walking/running pace fighting, keeping dueling to the ground (movie like).

3) Somehow make it so the direction of movement of an individual cannot be changed mid-swing. Meaning if I take a swing at you, I wont be able to strafe left and right madly (bringing about a cheesy less skillful feel). This would be especially great in creating a new style/look to all dueling (also movie like, i.e. obi wan swings and maul and moves in one direction, he doesnt change direction [opposite direction, or wild erratic movement] in the middle of a saber swing)

4) Make the block animation change dynamically (therefore creating new animations) for each types of attacked being stopped depending on where the attack is. Low attack, drop saber low to block, high attack throw saber up horizontally to block above head etc.. (would simply be incredible, duels would look REAL if accomplished).

That's it for now, hope I've given you some ideas, or even inspired you (doubt it :) ). Keep up the wonderful work!

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-22-2003, 08:23 AM
Thx for the praise man :)
(I'm blushing as I type!)

Point 1.
I already try and do this, although I'm never sure exactly how 'severe' I should make this effect.
At the moment, these are the figures for chances of 'attempting' blocking with defense NOT held:

Defense Level 1: 0 / 10 (Not possible)
Defense Level 2: 2 / 10
Defense Level 3: 4 / 10

So as you can see, level 3 is still pretty damn low - less than 50%.
And even if the block is attempted, you still have to be facing your target with the appropiate accuracy, so the block can still fail.

I can try messing with these figures. Maybe bring level 2 down to 1 and level 3 down to 3...?

Try using defense level 1 for a bit, so you can get an appreciation of the difference...

And also having a certain cvar set (I beleive it's g_ghoul2collision) means that even if you don't block - if the bullet hits the saber directly, that will be blocked anyway - so that changes the dynamic too.


Points 2 and 3 would depend on a concept that I don't think will work. Having one type of defense for duels against other saber opponents, and another type of defense against gun-wielding opponents.
I've taken out duel challenge from my mod. I'm trying to be movie-realistic in this mod, so that means I can't have people start glowing and become invincible! :)
You could have different buttons for each type of defense, but that gets unwieldy and complicated...
Do you see what I mean?


Point 4 would be great. I'm guessing you might mean the sticky sabers. Maybe not using the standard 'lock' anims, but getting more variety for them.
If so, yeah. THat'd be great. It'd mean a LOT of messing around with different anims to find the right combnations, but it's certainly possible,
I'll see what I can do... :)

Smood
03-22-2003, 10:11 AM
Hey renegade,

Actually what I meant in point 2 and 3 are not different defences, just different 'movement'. To restrict the player from moving around crazily while battling (specifically in mid swing), instead to move with skill, more slowly yes (as you have done with walking saber block), but more skillfully. The key is to have saber movement with a pace, so it appears dueling is more like the movies instead of more like a 'game version of the movies'.

I definately understand why you cannot have different defences, but I think that is more related to point 4.

In point 4 I do not mean the sticky sabers, which are great btw. I mean when you block depending on where the attack is coming from, you should implement a different animation to visually demonstrate the block. So if I shoot a blaster bolt at you leg, and you blocked, you would spin or move the saber downwards, block the shot and bring it back up. There is already a degree of these varying blocking animations in jk2, but expanding them is what I was suggesting.

However, now that I think about it, I feel point 2 and 3 to be more significant. I think you might of misinterpreted what I meant. We'll see but I think once I explain it properly (maybe I have above) you will enjoy these implementations.

MORE...

I'm doing some thorough testing of movie battles with a friend and have noticed the blue lunge is still not blocked 100% of the time if block is engage, especially if the combatant gets in close. With this I'm wondering 2 things, firstly, do you plan to ensure lunge is completely blocked if block is engaged? Secondly, what do the different stances have in blocking advantages (i.e. is red block better the blue block for red strike, and blue better for blue strike?).

The final note I wish to add, is to be weary of any mergers. I have heard razorace wishes to merge Masters of the Force with movie battles. Just to comment, I think that although razorace is a talented person making a mod with great potential his 'DODGE' function will greatly interfere with what I'm guessing is your vision (and mine) of a movie battle.

I recently watched his improved saber demo, and was disgusted to see combatats choopily leaping out of the way of the saber. In my opinion this drastocally takes away from what saber combat is all about. The ghoul2 hitzones are great, true view has potential, but not really playable yet, but the dodges will ruin your mod and your vision (in my humble opinion).

SORRY for the long post, I hope I can help in anyway with production of this fantastic mod.

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-22-2003, 11:18 AM
Smood,

Right. I guess I took your use of the word 'dueling' in your points to mean you wanted one thing for normal blaster fire blocking, and another for saber combat blocking...

I get your points better now, but I still think the fact you can't practically have two different blocking mechanisms means you have limitations...

One example is the fact that you walk when you block. For dueling, it's perfect! Looks much more real. But you could argue that you might wanna move a bit faster when blocking blaster fire. But in that case, you'd need 2 different blocks - which doesn't work in principle.

In short, if I restrict jumping in a 'duel', I end up limiting jump in other situations.
If I limit movement in a swing in duels, it ends up happening in other areas of saber combat. I'm trying to imagine if sabering a stormtrooper would become a real pain if you could only move in one direction when you swung. Possibly not, but it has to be taken into account...

Hmmm - no, I wasn't aware of the blue lunge thing. To be honest, I'm not certain holding defense should be able to block 'everything' - because Jedi's on 1 HP could clam up and try and just block the round out sometimes, which could get boring...
Not sure about that really. I'd be happy to take some advice on that. (It seems you get what I'm trying to do in this mod very well, so I respect your opinion :) )

Yeah, I get what you mean about the blocking now. Yeah, that'd be great. It's on the list... :)

Yeah, I'm not interested in merging. It was talked about for a bit, but it became pretty obvious it wouldn't have worked out. I'm not against some possible code-sharing, which is a different thing - but we'll see...

If your serious about the help, that'd be great. I may have some news quite soon which might make your help more important actually.

Watch this space :)

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-22-2003, 11:57 AM
After gettting some good feedback for this mod, and offers for help from various people, I am seriously considering ressurecting the original, proper concept for this mod:
Star Wars - Team Assault (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=95303)

razorace
03-22-2003, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by Smood
I recently watched his improved saber demo, and was disgusted to see combatats choopily leaping out of the way of the saber. In my opinion this drastocally takes away from what saber combat is all about. The ghoul2 hitzones are great, true view has potential, but not really playable yet, but the dodges will ruin your mod and your vision (in my humble opinion).

I can understand the Dodge complain. It doesn't do any sort of prediction at this point so it only triggers after impact.

I'll be upgrading Dodge in the future, but what's wrong with True View?

I'm interested by the fact that you're willing to make comments about MotF but not directly to the MotF Team. If we don't hear complains, how are we suppose to improve? :)

Anyway, as for the backstabs not being 100% blockable, that's due to the way the saber system is set up. Specials have the ability to break thru defenses.

Also, you don't need g_ghoul2sabercollisions to have saber on saber collisions work. All g_ghoul2sabercollisions does is turn on ghoul2 tracing for the saber, greatly increases the size of your attack trace, and slightly changes the saber block chances.

Smood
03-22-2003, 03:30 PM
Renegade a few things...

1) What I'm proposing is having this style of fighting for all gametypes and all situations not just duels. Now I see the dilemma there, since this would slow down jedi vs. mercenary combat considerablly.

Perhaps a area based system should be implemented!? So in essence as a person with a saber approaches you within a certain radius these movement changes take place (much like a temporary set of engaged duel settings). This area system would probablly be very hard to implement and thus is not very practical.

Features of More practicallity:

2) Remove all spark effects! A very simple modification that would bring a great amount of movie effect to dueling. These sparks were not featured in any movie duel, and thus I'am perplexed to the reason they were added to jediknight.

Also remove smoke, and those small golden balls that come out when a person is struck. The removing of these effects accomadates the next point.

3) Keep saberghoul2collision option on by default. I enjoyed movie battles so much, but when ghoul2 collision was on it was even better. There were mid swing parries and more saber deflection. There is far more parrying and thus sparks and other no movie effects should be removed to free up the screen. Try it! It is incredible with movie battles.

4) SMALL BUG: At times, the saber reacts as if being hit or clashed with, even though the opponent you are facing is far away. Not a big thing, but a noticeable bug.

5) Implemenation of even further reduced block when not using block button (you have suggested this, and I think it would be great).

RENEGADE you have something GREAT! Keep up the amazing work! I'am pleased to hear your decision of the merger.

How do you choose the class you desire to be? I'am not sure of this.


Razorace -

I'am sorry for not suggesting these changes to you. The reason I did not dealt with the fact that I could not truly appeciate your mod since true view is unplayable in my opinion (at least so far). I realize you have options to slow down camera movement, but it seems to me jk2 was designed to really keep this option shadowed. This is not to say you have done a great job implementing it, but I just cannot seem to enjoy it,

I was wondering how I could turn it off to witness the rest of what you have done.

Jman3ooo
03-22-2003, 03:49 PM
I'm running a dedicated server on my computer now (Located in NY).

If anyone wants to play just PM me.

Server IP:
67.84.20.8

***IMPORTANT***
If you change you model while dead/spectating, YOU CANNOT BE FOLLOWING ANYONE when the round restarts or else you crash the whole server. (Renegade has this fixed and will be implemented in the next mod).

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-22-2003, 04:00 PM
May I suggest at the moment that if you want to change class, you leave the game and then join again? A pain, I know. But that makes sure their's no problems...

I want to make sure ALL issues to do with changing class and team are sorted for the next build (which is why I'm not releasing the crash fix straight away...)

razorace
03-22-2003, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by Smood
I'am sorry for not suggesting these changes to you. The reason I did not dealt with the fact that I could not truly appeciate your mod since true view is unplayable in my opinion (at least so far). I realize you have options to slow down camera movement, but it seems to me jk2 was designed to really keep this option shadowed. This is not to say you have done a great job implementing it, but I just cannot seem to enjoy it,

I was wondering how I could turn it off to witness the rest of what you have done. [/B]

Well, motf_trueguns 0 disables True View for the guns. Looks like we missed that point in the manual but it is listed in the cvar list.

So, basically, you don't like it because of what it is instead of it lacking features. :P Get your story straight. :)

True View does take time to get used to. There's not really anything else that can be added to the True View system to make it better.. It is totally dependant on smooth/good animations and models for the view to look right and the default Raven animations aren't my fault. Heck, I already fixed at least one of their animation sequence bugs in the roll animations.

Anyway, that's enought thread hijacking for now. :)

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-22-2003, 04:29 PM
Smood,

Thanks for thinking about this stuff! It's great to get such well thought out feedback! :)

The 'dueling-area' system could work in principle. It wouldn't actually be that hard to achieve in code, but I'm more worried about confusing the hell out of the average player!
Especially when they didn't see a Jedi behind them, so suddenly their doing different moves but they don't think they should be.
You could make it so that it's distance AND facing a Jedi, but at this point the feature is getting pretty convoluted!

Donno. I guess I'm kind of resigned to the fact that the saber system overall has to be a compromise between saber and gun combat. Any way around it seems to end up being a non-starter...

But I'm open to trying to find a solution! :)

Yeah, I can keep saberghoul2collision on by default - not a problem. In for next build...

Good point about the spark effects! Never really thought about it.
Well, donno. Isn't there the odd spark now and again..? But anyway - not anywhere near as often as in play.
Is there a cvar for saber spark effects?

Well spotted about the 'block-when-noone-there' bug! This is a residual effect from a much worse problem I had earlier in development - phantom bullets!! You wouldn't just make blocking movements, you'd actually get hit - and take damage, even when no-one is shooting at you!! lol
I've managed to improve things a lot, they can't actually do you damage anymore, but you can still see some residual effects. i.e. There are still some phantom bullets flying around - they just can't hurt you!
I've nearly driven myself mad trying to solve this. Once I've had a chance to re-coup my sanity, I'll dive back in and finish it off! :)

To change class, just select a new model. Look below the model list bar, and the class will be shown there - where the name used to be. Now only shows null for the name - this will be fixed in the next build too...
Be aware that this doesn't work right sometimes and can actually cause crashing. I'm gonna fix all this stuff in the next build. But, for now, I would suggest re-joining (or re-starting) a game when changing class - to be safe. Although changing class / team when NOT inbetween round spectating seems fairly safe...

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-22-2003, 04:40 PM
After playing a few games with Jman, I think I need to do something fairly drastic...

I think I need to SERIOUSLY reduce the amout of jetpack fuel avalible to the Mandalorian in a round. I mean a lot...

...maybe only 5-10 seconds flight-time.

I'm sure some of you are thinking - WTF?

But the fact is that at the moment, a Jedi simply cannot get close to a Mandalorian to attack them. The mand can just jetpack for a second, land somewhere else and attack again.
This is OK once or twice, but he can't spend ALL round doing this!!

Comments please...

razorace
03-22-2003, 08:53 PM
I'm pretty sure sparking is hardwired whereever it is used.

master_thomas
03-22-2003, 09:03 PM
As I played on Jman's server as a mandolorian, the jetpack is necessary.

Besides, the jedi can deflect everything and is also the only one who can deflect anything at all. Mandolorians need the jetpack for use throughout the map for dodging.

How about, give it a recharge like I previously requested, but make it drain faster. Jango Fett never used it for extended periods of time. Only quick spurts of usage. Jango also killed a jedi with his pistols and little effort and was a good match for Obi-Wan, who was probably the third our fourth most powerful Jedi of the time.

Still, heroes need something. Can you increase their running speed and non force jump height?

On the server I confirmed that bots have uber-aim. While running around madly, a prisoner bot shot me three times with a disruptor from across the level while I was also running with random movement. The third shot knocked me off of a building and I died. I was out of jetpack fuel. This happened multiple times (without the fall) while I was moving at full speed through the air with my jetpack.

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-22-2003, 09:26 PM
master_thomas,

I don't doubt the fact that a mandalorian should be an equal match for a Jedi. I agree, the movies enforce this...

But the fact is, as things stand now, that if a mandalorian wants to, he can attack the Jedi the whole round from distance. The Jedi has NO chance of getting close enough to the mandalorian to do any damage if the mandalorian can just take off any time during the whole round...

In other words, if the Jedi wants to attack the Mandalorian, but the Mandalorian doesn't want to get attacked, there is literally nothing the Jedi can do about it.
If the mandalorian has limited fuel, he can only fly away so many times. After that, he effectively has to stand and fight...

Having a rechargable jetpack, unfortunately, would make the problem even worse. It becomes even easier to just fly away anytime the Jedi get's anywhere near you...

And besides, I thought it was pretty well agreed among players that your actually quite an easy target on a jetpack. The jetpack is handy for reaching unaccessible parts of the map, getting somewhere quickly, making a quick escape etc. But I not convinced it should be considered a 'dodging' tool particularly...

I think the fact that heroes have a potentially infinite regenerating health is all the advantage they need. And their already the fastest of all the classes...

As far as the uber-bot aim, what setting did Jman have the bots at?

Smood
03-23-2003, 01:12 AM
I fully support your jetpack decision renegade. I feel it will definately better reflect the movies, and mandalorians.

On the mandalorians it would be interesting if you could borrow some of Azymn's code and features if he allows it (which I doubt) so mandalorians can have a flame thrower, clocking, dual pistols, optic radar, etc...

I know, this will make them exceptionally strong which is something that would have to be balanced for if it were implemented, but would definately enhance their class. Since, there must be equilibrium and equivelant power relations between classes, these changes may also enhance all other classes. Just something to think about.

- removing sparks -

Well, I did some work in the past to try and find out how this may be accomplished. Some suggested the obvious route, code (I'm doing java, and basics of C++, itll be a good LONG while before I can do some real stuff), the others suggested deleting FX files for jk2. This sounded sensible and practical, but I did not attempt this.

I have also e-mailed technical support about this mod question, I do not know if they will give me a straight answer, but will get back to you as soon as possible. I really want this implemented. BTW, no duel featured any spark, not even the odd spark, this is why I want them removed. I still do not know why they were implemented, even in KOTOR they are being implemented! LOL!

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-23-2003, 09:34 AM
Well Smood, you'll be happy to know that I've managed to remove almost all the spark and 'orange ball' effects.
I'd never noticed how wierd all that stuff looked until you pointed it out.It does indeed look a lot cleaner now...

The one effect I'm having trouble getting rid of is when the saber deflects a blaster shot, you get a spark. But if I remove that effect, you also don't get wall impact effects - which I think are better left in - and this also leads to no impact marks left on the walls too.
I guess the code somewhere treats a blaster-saber impact just the same as a blaster-wall impact as far as the effect is concerned. If I can find where this happens, I'll remove that last remaining spark effect...

There has been talk between me and Azymnn. He wants to concentrate on getting his release out before anything concrete happens (which I totally understand), but it's certainly looking possiblle that we might be doing some code-sharing.

Yeah, adding all the cool stuff to the mandalorian could upset game balance. I guess I'll come to that when it comes :)

Smood
03-23-2003, 12:41 PM
I can't believe you've removed the effect so promptly! Great work! How exactly did you do it?

Anyhow, my main concern was the spark effects on saber to saber clashing, saber to blaster is just an added bonus, but the saber to saber spark removal is a wonderful achievement! EVEN more so with the small orange balls that come out when you strike someone, those are perhaps even more illogical then the sparks. GREAT WORK!

If you are on msn messenger please feel free to add me so we can communicate more freely.

dreadknotx@hotmail.com

master_thomas
03-23-2003, 02:42 PM
Just a comment, Smood. I think the "orange balls" are called blood sparks. Talking about the small orange balls that come out of you when you get hit by a saber sounds weird.

Can you separate the wall impact and saber-blaster effect in any way? Maybe you can find the file that determines the effect and change it. Make an effect file with no effects and set it to use that. Can that be done?

Smood
03-23-2003, 03:43 PM
As renegade has stated these two effects are linked. If he finds a way of seperating them I'm sure he will.

razorace
03-23-2003, 07:29 PM
They're linked? Why would they be linked? Isn't the spark effect called seperately for saber - bolt impacts vs. bolt - wall impacts?

Smood
03-23-2003, 07:45 PM
Apparently not razorace.

razorace
03-23-2003, 07:52 PM
Well, why does Phunk think they are linked? From what I've seen, the lightsaber contact stuff makes a seperate call for those effects...

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-23-2003, 07:55 PM
Linked is the wrong word :)

Your right Razor - I just haven't bothered tracing back yet - to where the individual calls come from for each instance of the effect.

The other effects weren't used else-where, so it was trivial to stop them playing.

I haven't bothered finding out where their called yet. (The little work I have done today I've spent trying to sort out these damn class-changing glitches...!)

I'll leave it till tomorrow :)

razorace
03-23-2003, 08:56 PM
ok dokie.

EV_SABER_BLOCK is the tag entity for most of the saber blocking sparks. Search for that and you should find most of the sparking code.

BloodRiot
03-24-2003, 05:25 AM
Hey...

BIG question... why dont the jedi deflect the shots back to firing opponents? I might have a failed to see a previous explanation of this but it can be at least one of 2 things: a Bug or an Intentional measure to give the blaster weilding opponents a chance.

Well, if you guyz and to make Jedi Saber Blocking and Deflecting more of a task of skill i'd sugest limiting the time vs effect of the saber blocking. Something like making the block a bit like attacking. This way you'd have to time the blocks. So if a Stormie shoots 3 times towards you (assuming that all the shots would connect) you'd have to press Block 3 times. Each block would have a window of effect of 1 or 2 seconds.

If you want to use the delfect blasts back to the enemy which fird them, you can do 1 of 2 things. 1st you can use a random probability of deflecting, meaning that not all the shots would be deflected back and would stop at the lightsaber. The other is using the blue swing(maybe combined with the block button) to stirke at blaster bolts, making them "bounce" back. The timming would dictate the precision of the deflection so that the closer to the mid swing, the more precise is the deflection.

Another note on Blocking. Forget about the saber block ability as it stands now. Make the saber blocking affect the engaged blocking with the secondary fire mode. What you CAN do is for non aware incoming bolts is to make the force sight more usefull. If engaged it would highlight enemies as normal, but it would also act like in SP allowing you to autododge a shot you could not see comming. If the dodge anim is not available... you can always use a standard blocking animation.

Mandalorians are by far the strongest class. Mostly because of the jetpack no doubt. Reducing the time a Mandalorian can stay airborn would do the trick.
Also on Mandalorians, I read someone say something about the rocket launcher. Well if possible i'd say remove the rocket launcher as a weapon, and try to bind the rocket(from the jetpack, not a hand weapon) to a key like the jetpack allowing both standard firing modes (normal and lock on).

I havent tried but how much does force pull affect airborn Mandalorians?

I think it would be pretty cool to remove some weapons fro mthe mandalorian but add some gadgets, like the radar and stuff.

How about a Non-Mandalorian Bounty Hunter Class? Remove jetpack, add some weapon or gadjet.

Regarding the Classes and Class selection. Maybe it would be best to change the process. when you click the Character menu you'd first have to choose a class, then you'd get the menu to selectthe skin and model as well as abilities and maybe the weapons available to the class you chose on the first menu.

Well... more stuff to complicate Renegade's project ;)

Cheers

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-24-2003, 06:21 AM
BloodRiot,

I have not (intentionally at least) touched anything to do with the chances of deflecting blaster shots back at your enemy. There should be the same chance of this as before.
When I'm playing, I certainly manage to kill the odd enemy by deflecting back the shot sometimes. Are you saying this never happens for you now?

I'm not sure I want to go as far as making you hit the block button presisely when a shot is coming at you. I think a lot of players will find that VERY fustrating I've gotta say.
Saying that, if you CAN predict your enemy, it is advantageous, because you can switch between sprinting and blocking, allowing you to catch up to an opponent who's firing at you and running away...

I think at higher levels of defense, you should have SOME chance of blocking shots without defense held. I think this represents the fact that sometimes in the movies, you DO see a Jedi moving at a good pace while blocking. It's rare, but it does happen. (One example is Mace Windu running at Jango Fett in AotC).
Since it's a risky thing to do, this should keep it fairly rare in-game, which should keep it accurate to the films.

At the moment, if you pull a Mandalorian, he does a 'falling' animation, but keeps flying. I've changed that since so that when you push or pull, the jetpack 'cuts out'. Seems to work well...

Yeah, if I can add cool toys (hopefully from ForceMod), then I can reduce the literal power of the Mandalorian class and still keep it balanced...
I want to eventually do what you've suggested with the rocket, but it's probably not gonna make it in for this release.

I may add a specific, Bounty Hunter type class eventually, although again, I doubt it'll make it in for this release...

Yeah, a class selector control would be good for the menu's. I'll look into it...

Razor,
Thanks for the tip. I'll check it out when I get home...

BloodRiot
03-24-2003, 07:03 PM
I have the B4 version and personally... i havent noticed any bolts being deflected... might have jsut not happened on my "against bots" tryout or simply i failed to notice them.

Well..about my delfecting and blocking bolts idea it's probably just me since i'm a bit of an RPG fanatic... there fore i strive for balance.... my point of view was... not all about power is good. And saber blocking always sounded too automatic for these games. My idea of a perfect duel is 2 guyz timming every attack to either parry or go through the enemies defense as opposed to the sraffing and attack spamming till one falls. One hit one kill tactic. but yes.. this perfect dueling would be too drastic for a shoot'em up. However properly implemented.. the idea as sugested on my previous post would do the trick since you'd simple had to press the button at the right times. Let's face it.. a jedi wants to rush and end that spray of blaster bolts cuz in them ovies...blocking is not automatic and they cant just block for an entire "round" ;p

you do as you please of corse... but automatic defense just doesnt sound correct enough... to be honest.. i hate playing ctf on saber only servers... the defense is over abusive. It's not a matter of skill but more of DFA spamming.
Your idea of blocking being assigned and engaged to a button was a great first step in taking out that awful abuse. If it stays as is im more than pleased... i just took a shot at making it more to my like ;p can anyone blame me for following my tastes? ;p lol

keep us posted on further updates... oh and btw.. when are planning to realease the next build?

Cheers mate.. keep up the good work.

razorace
03-24-2003, 07:14 PM
I have a lot to comment on this subject but I'll hold my tongue since this the stuff I'm working on for MotF. :)

However, Blood is correct about the lack of deflected bolts back at the attacker. But it should also be noted that Jedi normally deflect bolts at OTHER opponents instead of right back at the attacker.

Smood
03-24-2003, 11:40 PM
Bloodriot you have some interesting points. The blocking as it stands however, is the limit to what I feel will work 'THIS' melee dueling system. A time window approach to blocking is definately even more advanced, but with jediknights quick game like animation and lack of opposiing accleration, realism, and blunt physics a system of this nature is just not practical.

Movie battles has introduced the pinnacle of jediknight dueling, far beyond that of promod, and vastly superior to the base package. The dueling requires more skill in blocking and time fighting is a big part of the match.

The movie like effect is further induced by the ghoul2sabercollision cvar being turned on in its introduction with mid animation breaking parries and much more epic looking duels. Furthermore this extends skillful, or equal sided parries to allow a larger window of time for the player to appreciate what is happening.

You must truly play movie battles, and appreciate what it has to offer! To do any less is ludicrous, and to propose further improvement on this already sizeable bound is even more so. This is not to say progression is impossible, but that one must understand the dynamics of the game in conjunction to modification.

Appreciate the moviebattles, and ghoul2. It is easily the best melee combat ever.

(Where did you get build 4?)

Smood
03-24-2003, 11:50 PM
Just to elaborate on my point, I refer you to a post I had made a short while ago, this may shed some light on the situation...



Ok well I opened this thread to discuss what this new sequel/expansion should be, what was done right in jk2 and what should be changed for the next sequel/expansion.

Now, I'am not trying to brag but I really feel my suggestions are key points that can make a great game into an unbelievable game.

Before I begin I would ask that all posters in this thread limit their ideas to (significant core changes) (i.e. no fix the damn door in yavin). THANKS.

|= [THE CHANGES REQUIRED ]======================================

============
| SABER COMBAT |
============

This is probably the biggest area of change that could make the game simply fantastic. The existing combat was definitely a huge step up from Dark Forces 2, stances were a fairly creative idea and helped the game. Another leap in combat is necessary.

The biggest drawback to RAVEN’s saber system is they felt it should be ‘intuitive’ in other words a new player should be able to pick it up right away. In fact, an actual raven employee said on XGR, if you want to master the system you can do that, but if you just want to mash the buttons then its ok for that too, its very intuitive. For me intuitive means simple, basic and something with lack of depth. Which I feel is the current state of your saber combat.

The combat system I imagine is one where the saber is fluid and organic not mechanical. The saber once swung can be manipulated in almost unlimited fashion with movement of the mouse. This will allow for an unaccountable number of types of attacks and widens the scope of saber combat greatly. To complement this huge core change would be a manual blocking system. The system would be fully manual yielding no auto blocking. Creating effective saber combats with this system could definitely be difficult, one method of allowing this to work is possibly having a jedi sense level where faint indicators project the region in which a saber will pass moments before it does to help allow the player to react to another individual’s saber.

PARRYING
This can be done quite well with the above system, as long as it works around momentum. Saber battling should often have one party who is mainly attacking while the other is defending and a switch in roles. Only a few times should you have individuals both attacking and in essence defending.

============
| MOVEMENT |
============

To follow the movies more closely, and to make battling more exciting movement in jediknight needs a large revamp. Instead of being quite fps like, it should be more delicate, and intricate. Some solid suggestions follow.

During saber combat individuals are able to move left and right in a very short time, this leads to a cheap fps game/feel not suitable for a type of combat game like jedi outcast. Instead by the same change as above, making the stepping fluid and organic (have movement slower, and better blended) would bring a much greater feel of true saber battling, and movie/real life movement.

One key here is making movement slower relative to the world and relative to other individuals.


============
| THE FORCE |
============

The force powers in jedi outcast were fairly well done and a step in the right direction, except for their frequent usage, and commonality. To bring JO to a more movie like feel (less of a cheesy spammy feel), it would be ideal to make forces much stronger, but have them all proportionally cost much more force. An example of the outcomes of this type of change might be less frequent force jumping (similar to movies), grip should be powerful enough to kill an enemy but should do so slowly, and appear to torcher the enemy, however the tradeoff would be the jedi performing the grip would only be able to walk slowly and be exposed to attack.

============
| THE SABER |
============

THE BIG FACTOR IS DAMAGE!
The saber is a deadly weapon, a touch of it can mean instant dismemberment and cauterization of afflicted body parts. However in JEDI OUTCAST developers have made the same mistake as many other fps games. They reduced the deadliness of the weapon in hopes of preserving game play. This only takes away from game play. As long as a new complex combat system is in place the saber should be lethal. Swinging the saber through any part of body should yield instant dismemberment and death of the player, but connecting a clean strike will be difficult if your opponent is equally skilled.

The saber looks fairly convincing, and with modifications even better. Maintaining a movie like feel would simply involve change the core glow slightly to represent a straight tube rather then a pointed end (i.e. ep1 – 2).

============
| GRAPHICS |
============

This is a fairly obvious and self-explanatory category. Get out of quake world and up the game technology. Be it an existing engine or new one, making graphics more appealing to the player is the only goal here.

============
| ANIMATION |
============

Animation in JEDI OUTCAST was fairly well done, however was too repetitive and not very varied. In this area I’m simply looking for an expanding of types of animations during combat, and when running (i.e. running normally, running enraged or concentrated [saber held high with too hands close to face]).

Again in this category achieving a fluid blended feel is important. Jerking from one animation to another is the one thing that must be avoided.


CONCLUSION:
This is a big task. These changes demand a lot, but I believe successful implementation of any of them with the appropriate testing and balancing will yield an exciting improvement to a already great game!

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-25-2003, 11:23 AM
Almost creepy! So many points you made are exactly how I've approched Movie Battles...

...what's that saying about great minds? ;)

...although I don't think I'll be able to slot in enough time to move the game to a new game engine!! Maybe next release... lol


And Smood,
Build 4 is the one freely avaliable on the site.
(The one you had a sneak preview of was build 5 - unless the one I sent you was incorrectly named...)

razorace
03-25-2003, 01:33 PM
The problem with instantly lethal sabers and manual blocking is that battles last less than a few seconds, especially if you got idle saber damage on. I know, I've tried it. :) Your reaction time with a keyboard/mouse setup is far too slow to prevent 100% of saber touches when just being touched by the saber kills you. Unless you have the equipment and money to make a better VR class control system, something has to give. Personally, I think setting the blade to a lower damage level but making it more "constant" (by reducing the damage debounce) feels fairly realistic (a solid hit will kill) while going you a chance to actually duel for a while.

Smood
03-25-2003, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by razorace
The problem with instantly lethal sabers and manual blocking is that battles last less than a few seconds, especially if you got idle saber damage on. I know, I've tried it. :) Your reaction time with a keyboard/mouse setup is far too slow to prevent 100% of saber touches when just being touched by the saber kills you. Unless you have the equipment and money to make a better VR class control system, something has to give. Personally, I think setting the blade to a lower damage level but making it more "constant" (by reducing the damage debounce) feels fairly realistic (a solid hit will kill) while going you a chance to actually duel for a while.

Thats just it Razor! People always think in terms of our current combat system. However, think of a completely knew one. One in which saber fighting is not limited to animations, but only limited by a persons skill, and their ability to move. Employing this new system calls for instant saber damage since it is a system based on skill and discipline.

Those who play casually will be annhilated by those experienced players. Allow me to paint you a picture...

I approach a jedi in a CTF match, he attempts to pass me, I stand in his way and he knows there shall be a fight. We both approach eachother with a walking, cautious stance. He swings at me from the left (HOLD ON, the saber animation is fluid, not jerky, it is fast, but fluid, so I can see his saber moving towards me) granted I shall need some speed to counter it, but that is where skill comes in. I slide my mouse to the left to block, he turns his saber up, spins it, and brings it down in a vertically descending strike, I match this with my own saber falling down to block. He delays on the parrie which gives me an oppurtunity to move to the offensive. I bring my saber up, around my head and swing at his shoulder.

This all happens fairly quickly but seems fluid and CONTINUOUS. The key is clarity. The key is knowing WHAT YOU ARE DOING exactly. There is no way we can currently modify the saber combat system in jk to reflect this, but with movie battles we can bring it closer to this vision.

Using the movie as a referrence (even though these fights are planned ahead) we can clearly see a fluid fight. Now, don't take this to mean the fight must be continuous. I consider the Vader, Ben kenobi fight to be the greatest of all duels because it required skill, timing and a sense of prediction. This is what I feel games have the ability to achieve, if people were truly passionate about bringing GAMES to MOVIES, instead of worrying about gameplay.

The system I'm envisioning will be one of pure skill. Yes, some duels will be quick, but this will only reflect the lack of skill of a particular duelist, and either frustrate them, or cause them to acknowledge this lacking of ability and train to improve.



Renegade -

Sorry! I didn't even see the build on my file. ROFLOL!

Smood
03-25-2003, 04:27 PM
Another point I can't stress enough is acceleration. We must do away with this game like pace, and bring more realism to fighting. NO I'M NOT SAYING MAKE IT A RPG. We can still have a fast paced fps, but do not exceed the speed of the movies. Keep jumping to a minimum (definately need an incentive to not constantly jump here), and make running or walking acceleration a fact. Yes you can be agile, but not have a degree of agility that refutes basic newtonian principle!

Just had to tack that on.

razorace
03-25-2003, 05:25 PM
I am thinking in terms of a total rewrite. The problem is that you can't have 100% control of the saber with the mouse/keyboard and make it look/feel good.

My idea is to make the saber movement be based on the mouse control but there's no absolute mouse to saber control. I call it "Mouse Sabering" but that's something that I'm doing for MotF. In this system, you use simple mouse movements combined with the left/right buttons to translate to saber attack/defense moves. Yes, this doesn't give you subtle control of the saber but you can't really get that subtle control without a different form of input device other than a keyboard/mous. It should be easy to play but hard to master. :)

With 100% mouse to saber control you end up with "Die By the Sword". It was interesting game but mouse/keyboard control doesn't give enough input to make the system more complicated than swords swinging around wildly.

As for acceleration issues, yes, JK2 has a problem with body accelerations but it's not that much of a difference. Remember that it is possible to stop from a full-out run in a couple of steps.

Smood
03-25-2003, 07:33 PM
I agree totally about requiring mouse control. This is the essence of melee combat of all games in the future. To control completely through the real world, relating an actual element of skill (in hand movement) to the saber.

With 100% mouse to saber control you end up with "Die By the Sword". It was interesting game but mouse/keyboard control doesn't give enough input to make the system more complicated than swords swinging around wildly.

I disagree with this in totality. It is not the inputting that is lacking, it is the game code. With proper programming, this 'mouse control' can be supported in such a way that the practice becomes skill realated. With exceptionally great collision detection, a high degree of physics, and slower REALISTIC/TRUE to the MOVIE dueling paces (i.e. REAL ACCELERATION), a skillful system can definately be achieved.

This is especially evident when looking at what movie battles has accomplished with simply adding a manual block, enforcing walk, and modifying code.

Razorace let me explain a bit of the practicality of the system. Imagine the mouse control as you see it. This coupled with fluid animation (which is key in making the system work). Now, when I attack, I hold down attack, move my mouse, as well as my body. Two avenues of control. The movement is slower but has acceleration so running very quickly is possible as long as it is in a straight line (i.e. if you have been holding down a movement key for a short time). Then my opponent moves his saber to match mine, but instead of attack, he uses alternate fire button held down, and defensive style animations are consequence to this.

This system is all about 'battle momentum'. This is to achieve the duel style of the movies. It is also about 'skill/time sense'.

I would say the first style represents episode 1 (obi and maul). There was quick switches from attacker to defender. It was a matter of waiting for the attacker to slow down a bit, or halt a saber series for a moment to switch momentum.

The second style represents a great sense of the duel. The waiting, and striking, again same momentum system, but with greater regard for skill and time.

master_thomas
03-25-2003, 07:54 PM
the left to block, he turns his saber up, spins it, and brings it down in a vertically descending strike, I match this with my own saber falling down to block. He delays on the parrie which gives me an oppurtunity to move to the offensive. I bring my saber up, around my head and swing at his shoulder.

Talk about accuracy to the movies! That is almost exactly how Anakin lost his hand (came out of a saber lock, but that is basically two attacks that counter eachother[like a block] and Dooku swung while Anakin's hand was in its path). Just interesting.

The idea seems excellent. Maybe, you could use the right mouse button for saber block and you swing your mouse to block (already said, I know) and the blaster blocking stance is automatic when you walk. In the Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers for Playstation2, you hit the defense button to make a defense maneuver. The only problem is that it almost always succeeded. This could be similar, but with the mouse-swing-block and for the button mashers, give a small delay between blocks so they are forced to commit. That way it is hard to spam.

Block-(two seconds)-Block-(two seconds)-Block-(two seconds)-Block-(one second) AAAAAGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH. As he is decapitated. So ends the life of a button masher.

Feel free to adjust the time, but you get the idea. It is the same as the current idea, but I added the delay and automatic blaster-blocking-walk(not fool-proof of course)

Depending on his/her block level, adjust how close the cursor has to be to the enemies saber and how well the block must be timed.

Smood
03-25-2003, 08:03 PM
Actually, a delay between blocks should only be based on the pace of the duel. Adding a deliberate delay would only reduce the lack of skill required, wounding the system. The blocking and motion of the saber should all be tuned to real world (or real movie) speed of varying degrees (but exceeding this speed is of paramount importance).

I also disagree with your automatic blaster block which would hurt the system further. Instead, manual block should be of full accordance and blaster blocking although requiring significant skill should be relatively simple for short durations of time.

Click alternate fire, await blaster bolts, and slide the saber to intercept bolts. Only the most skilled players will adopt this fully and be comfortable with the saber creating a sense of class skill struggle. Epicity at its finest.

razorace
03-25-2003, 09:06 PM
That's nice and all but it's not practical. You can't react quickly enough with a keyboard/mouse to exactly control the saber to block a bolt or another saber. Check out "Die By the Sword", it has a system very similar to what you're describing.

If the mouse is linked directly to the saber, you can't change your direction with the mouse. You end up having to use the keyboard to turn or strafe while you are attacking OR blocking.

Plus, the physics to prevent model clipping/impossible moves on a full dynamic model would be VERY VERY tricky. The Karma Engine in UT is only the beginning of what would be required.

Possible, but not going to happen anytime soon, especially in a JK2 mod or in a game. It's complicated to do and hasn't soon the sales potental as a simplier system does. (Compare the sales of Die By the Sword to other simplier weapon games.)

A simpler system can give you similar amount of control and give you a equal or greater amount of immersion.

master_thomas
03-25-2003, 09:18 PM
Only the most skilled players will adopt this fully and be comfortable with the saber

But what about new players? The less skilled may get frustrated with the system and stop playing and never become skilled in this system.

The delay was really to be implemented in the animation. With current blocking, your arms sort of warp into position. A swinging saber block and then another would take at least one second. "Delay" is the wrong word(how many times will that be said in this thread?) and was used to simplify. Similar to SP when you constantly attack in medium stance. You hit the enemy saber, bounce back, and hit again in two seconds, but the enemy saber stays put. That's the problem. If they give a similar swing to parry, this takes two seconds as well, giving the attacker (or defender, who is taking the offensive as in Smood's example) time to strike.

The defensive swing would in reality give you enough power to keep your own saber from being bounced into your neck, making this more realistic. One of Newton's (back to him) laws states(not exactly) that if the counter force is to completely balance out or defeat the opposing force, it must be at least as powerful. No motion will not give enough power to defend.

razorace
03-25-2003, 09:29 PM
I agree. I'm planning on making the saber code for MotF be momentum based when I get to that point in the coding. Right now it's using some animation based crap that's very unrealistic and overally complicated.

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-25-2003, 09:57 PM
Great discussion guys. A lot of good points flying around...

I'm still trying to digest it all and come up with a firm idea of how I would like to take the saber system further...

Just want to clarify something before I start my rant.
Smood, do you actually want a system like 'Die By The Sword'? I don't think you've actually stated specifically if this is an accurate analogy for your ideas. Have you ever played it?
In that game, every single movement of your sword was DIRECTLY linked to your mouse, to the point where swinging at an opponent meant you literally had to move the mouse back to move the sword back, and then move the mouse forward to 'swing' the sword in front of you.
Innovative ... original ... and a right pain in the arse! Even the most simple moves meant madly running your mouse all over your mouse mat yelling "Just hit him!! He's right in front of you!!" - as your player seemed to be trying to scratch his back!

I don't think that Smood is actually suggesting a system like this for attacking moves. (Please jump in and correct me Smood, but that's not the impression I'm getting). Personally, I think attacking moves don't need to be altered - certainly not in any drastic way. It does the job, allows a good degree of control and looks 'real' enough. Yeah, you've got the red-is-too-slow type debates, but that's just tweaks at the end of the day...

Where I think Smood might well agree with a similar parallel with 'Die-By-The-Sword' is saber defense. This I think I agree with too - in principle. While you have your defense button held, it would be great to be able to literally try and move your saber manually to block incoming fire or an enemy saber attack - it would be very immersive and would promote skillful play. I like the idea - in principle...

The first hurdle to overcome is how this manual positioning works coherently with free view though - and to be honest, I'm having trouble getting past this! I think were getting a bit ahead of ourselves worrying about whether it'll be too hard for people to grasp etc. If this system can't work in unison with free look, then as far as I can see, it's a non-starter...

Take an example where a Jedi is being attacked by two gun-weilding opponents attacking from two different angles. With the current saber system, you can attempt to look back and forth between both opponents and attempt to effectivly 'share' your blocking power between both opponents while you either try and move in and attack one of them, or move towards cover etc.

How will this work with manual saber blocking added to the mix? How do you decide when mouse movements are directing where your looking, or where your positioning your saber? Can you only do one or the other at any one time? If so, this puts you in a VERY bad position any time you are being attacked by multiple enemies from differing angles...

Could you elaborate a bit more on your plans Smood? It's possible their's more to explain - but I've gotta say, at the moment, I'm having trouble visualising how your ideas are going to work in a practical sense.

Apologies for not mentioning all the points all of you have made thus far. I just want to try and investigate fully each of these ideas one by one...

Smood
03-25-2003, 10:12 PM
Originally posted by master_thomas
But what about new players? The less skilled may get frustrated with the system and stop playing and never become skilled in this system.


No, those who do get frustrated, are those who don't truly appreciate saber combat and should stick to gun toting. They are the players who appreciate a direct route and clear solution, rather then the route of a jedi. This is in contrary to the player that has an interest in developing skill, and appreciates the depth of a specific system. This is the player that will be the jedi. Who will win? Whose to say, depends on many factors, but this is the division of players.



The defensive swing would in reality give you enough power to keep your own saber from being bounced into your neck, making this more realistic. One of Newton's (back to him) laws states(not exactly) that if the counter force is to completely balance out or defeat the opposing force, it must be at least as powerful. No motion will not give enough power to defend.

I believe you are referring to Newton's third law of action reaction force. However you analysis is flawed. Remember the defender as well as the attacker apply 'constant' force. Not only is the clash victor gauged by the initial collision, but the defender and attacker apply sustaining force to further emplore their sabers. If the defensive force was never enough most duels would end with the overpowering of one player on the defensive, however, does this occur? No. As you can see in the movies, defensive power is enough, especially considering a saber duel, is much different then a sword fight.

You cannot directly apply the laws of newton on object of fiction such as a saber, whose center of mass and blade dynamics are vastly different, and unknown relative to a sword. Yes I know you never mentioned a sword, but this is a prime example of newton's action reaction force in a battle.

Smood
03-25-2003, 10:22 PM
Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
Great discussion guys. A lot of good points flying around...

I'm still trying to digest it all and come up with a firm idea of how I would like to take the saber system further...

Just want to clarify something before I start my rant.
Smood, do you actually want a system like 'Die By The Sword'? I don't think you've actually stated specifically if this is an accurate analogy for your ideas. Have you ever played it?
In that game, every single movement of your sword was DIRECTLY linked to your mouse, to the point where swinging at an opponent meant you literally had to move the mouse back to move the sword back, and then move the mouse forward to 'swing' the sword in front of you.
Innovative ... original ... and a right pain in the arse! Even the most simple moves meant madly running your mouse all over your mouse mat yelling "Just hit him!! He's right in front of you!!" - as your player seemed to be trying to scratch his back!

I don't think that Smood is actually suggesting a system like this for attacking moves. (Please jump in and correct me Smood, but that's not the impression I'm getting). Personally, I think attacking moves don't need to be altered - certainly not in any drastic way. It does the job, allows a good degree of control and looks 'real' enough. Yeah, you've got the red-is-too-slow type debates, but that's just tweaks at the end of the day...

Where I think Smood might well agree with a similar parallel with 'Die-By-The-Sword' is saber defense. This I think I agree with too - in principle. While you have your defense button held, it would be great to be able to literally try and move your saber manually to block incoming fire or an enemy saber attack - it would be very immersive and would promote skillful play. I like the idea - in principle...

The first hurdle to overcome is how this manual positioning works coherently with free view though - and to be honest, I'm having trouble getting past this! I think were getting a bit ahead of ourselves worrying about whether it'll be too hard for people to grasp etc. If this system can't work in unison with free look, then as far as I can see, it's a non-starter...

Take an example where a Jedi is being attacked by two gun-weilding opponents attacking from two different angles. With the current saber system, you can attempt to look back and forth between both opponents and attempt to effectivly 'share' your blocking power between both opponents while you either try and move in and attack one of them, or move towards cover etc.

How will this work with manual saber blocking added to the mix? How do you decide when mouse movements are directing where your looking, or where your positioning your saber? Can you only do one or the other at any one time? If so, this puts you in a VERY bad position any time you are being attacked by multiple enemies from differing angles...

Could you elaborate a bit more on your plans Smood? It's possible their's more to explain - but I've gotta say, at the moment, I'm having trouble visualising how your ideas are going to work in a practical sense.

Apologies for not mentioning all the points all of you have made thus far. I just want to try and investigate fully each of these ideas one by one...


Actually renegade, I was speaking in the sense of a completely new system, NOT IN TERMS of the movie battles project! This and your work, is completely seperate from my personal theories which apply to melee gaming in the near future.

I personally feel movie battles, perhaps with more modification, perhaps not :), pushes jk2 to the extent of realistic and skillful dueling. I in fact am completely satisfied with it, and what it offers, however if you feel you need to take it futher go for it, I support you 100%.

My saber theory is not directly related to die by the sword. I was actually suggesting a amalgam of the current system and a manual control system (and all this is in context for future star wars games, not jediknight 2). Specifically I was thinking of a system where the user can swing from different start positions, and once the saber is in movement can control the saber with the mouse. The saber would then end when it arrives at the end of an animation cycle, and return to normal position. The 'stances' would be replaced by styles dictating different starting positions, and while the saber was engaged with attack would be controlled with the mouse.

How do you turn? Simple, autopan. Have the saber acceletate as the mouse accelerates and turn the camera once it moves off the 180 degree plane of vision, along with the jedi turning. If you think about it, it is an extremely intriguing possibility.

razorace
03-25-2003, 10:47 PM
Autopan?! That's nuts, you'd not be able to rotate your body quickly enough to face your opponent. The game would probably devolve down to charging past each other trying to strike sideways at your opponent's side.

As for the Blocking stuff, manually blocking bolts isn't going to happen. It's like trying to hit a baseball half the normal size with a bat half the normal width at 3+ times the speed at 360 degrees of attack with mouse control. It's not going to happen at anything remotely resembling saber combat.

In MotF, we're going with a manual/auto system. You'll use secondary fire with Mouse Sabering (or the keyboard for the old schoolers) to choice one of at least 4 (most likely 8 positions) defense positions. From there, the chance to block something involved the distance from the saber.

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-25-2003, 11:28 PM
Ahh - guess I wasn't following the conversation...!

OK, in retrospect, I think I'm pretty much settled on my saber combat and blocking system as-is. Maybe tweaks as I go along, but on the whole I think it suits the pace of JKII well..

But just to clarify my eventual idea for this other theoretical manual saber blocking though. (I didn't explain fully so Smood could reply and clarify...).
I wouldn't have envisaged having to hit the bolt or saber dead on either. I too think this is going to be near-damn impossible to do in any kind of consistent way. (It wouldn't be possible even if you had the saber in your actual hands, let alone controlling one through a mouse and keyboard...)

But what I did envisage were the chances of performing a block being dependent on how close your saber happenned to be to the bolt / saber when it is about to hit. But for the actual block itself, the game would auto-move the saber into the correct position -assuming your block was indeed sucsessful...

If you have such amazing reflexes that you can consistenly manage to get it at least in the general direction of the bolt or saber thrust, the chance of a block would be greatly improved. So your skill has a direct effect.
But, if your reflexes aren't that good, you wouldn't move your saber far from the central postion, meaning that any shot which could potentially hit you only has so much chance of not getting blocked.
If you risk trying to go for proper blocks, and you get it wildly wrong (you move you saber to the lower-right, while a bolt is coming in at your upper-left), then you have next-to-no chance of a sucsessful block.
So saber blocking becomes a game of how much your willing to rick exposing your saber from the neutral blocking position to try and gain extra blocking chance...

But anyway, this is for a different game - like Smood says. Gotta be honest, I'm not convinced about the auto-scroll thing either - but since your talking about a totally different game here - it's all a bit theoretical really..

In any case - I think the current Movie Battles system is the appropiate compromise between frantic action and controlled defense for JKII gaming...

Smood
03-25-2003, 11:50 PM
I discussed a bit of my theory with Renegade and I think we have come to understanding about it.

But in an effort to steer the topic back on track from its digression, I'll end the discussion with:

MOVIE BATTLES IS GREAT.

.... any arguments? I would be happy to refute them.

master_thomas
03-26-2003, 07:20 AM
But what I did envisage were the chances of performing a block being dependent on how close your saber happenned to be to the bolt / saber when it is about to hit. But for the actual block itself, the game would auto-move the saber into the correct position -assuming your block was indeed sucsessful...

That's what I said with the addition of how the defense level alters how close it must be. This makes the repeater possible to defend against.

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-26-2003, 07:47 AM
Right master_thomas - sorry if you already posted the same idea. I found myself having a lot to read through last night!

Anyway, I think it's pretty much agreed that overly-manual blocking isn't making it's way into Movie Battles.
If we want to start another thread to continue discussing these possibilities for another game, that'd be OK. But I would like, if possible, to get this thread back on topic...

Just to give an update, I've found myself taking it relatively easy this week - I think I'm totally coded out from the past few weeks of full-on development!

I have made some headway on the class changing problems, but still haven't got them totally nailed. I'll hopefully make some good progress over the weekend...

Smood
03-26-2003, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk

If we want to start another thread to continue discussing these possibilities for another game, that'd be OK. But I would like, if possible, to get this thread back on topic...



I.e. my last post! :)

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-26-2003, 06:17 PM
Yeap - just reemphasising :)

Lord_Plo_Koon
03-27-2003, 03:31 PM
I just downloaded the beta and had some suggestions:

-Just a little faster force recharge
-Faster jet pack fuel diminishing but also recharge for the jet pack
-Saber blocking should hit the people your blocking laser from more accurately. This would fix the long range mandalorians running away thing
-You should be able to pick your class and use more models but from the same time period
-Two guns would be cool

I'll go play some more and then I'll have more comments. nice mod!

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-27-2003, 05:27 PM
Hmmm. I replied earlier, but the post seems to have gotten lost.

...wierd.

Oh well, anyway, I'll think about your suggestions.
But I just want to clarify what you mean here:

You should be able to pick your class and use more models but from the same time period

I'm planning to add a specific class selector to the menu, which will mean only the models of the chosen class will be avaliable for selection.

Also, you can currently change the time period by setting the g_timePeriod cvar:

1 = EU models
2 = Original Trilogy models
4 = Prequel models

You can also combine these values.
e.g. The default setting is EU + Original Trilogy (1 + 2 = 3!)

Do these two things cover it?

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-27-2003, 05:47 PM
Here is the first version of the manual:

Movie Battles manual (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/richard.hart4/Movie%20Battles.doc)

It's not much at the moment, but it does at least explain the basics. I'll keep adding to it as I go...

Jman3ooo
03-27-2003, 10:36 PM
And for thoose without Microsoft Word:

http://www.geocities.com/jman3ooo/MBManual.txt

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-28-2003, 08:02 AM
Good thinking Jman :)

I don't know what's up with my site at the moment - the index.html file seems to be getting regularly wiped!

Anyway, if all your seeing is a list of files, download and open Movie Battles.doc and that will explain what to do next.
(Those without Word, open the .txt document Jman has avaliable in the above link. I'll also get a .txt only version up on my site when I get a chance...)

Muun
03-28-2003, 10:01 AM
Interesting concept, and the beta worked fine for me, with one exception - apparently, there is a bug with a music. Why a bug? Because after I loaded the mod, instead of any of John Williams's glorious themes, I only heard a grinding, screeching, atonal, metallic noise constantly playing in the background :p :p :p

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-28-2003, 10:11 AM
HEY!!

Well, actually, you have a point! :)

At least I'm not just constantly over-using John Williams masterpieces (I totally agree.. ;) ), - sticking them into every single game I make without fail...

...at least it's something different!

razorace
03-28-2003, 10:54 AM
You mean the fact that you hear more of the same music in the games than you do in the movies is annoying? :D

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-28-2003, 11:22 AM
Ermmm ... yeah...

Well, I maybe wouldn't go as far as annoying, but I think it ends up taking away, let's say, the impact of the SW music when you've keep hearing the same section over and over again playing JKII MP, or any other SW-based LucasArts game. But, perhaps that's just me...

Tell ya what - I'll chuck in a cvar so you can have the default music back. No big deal to me :) I only knocked those tunes up in a couple of afternoons (as you can probably tell - lol) - while I was bored waiting for the JKII MP code to come out...!

...and some people seem to actually like it btw...! ;)

Lord_Plo_Koon
03-28-2003, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
Hmmm. I replied earlier, but the post seems to have gotten lost.

...wierd.

Oh well, anyway, I'll think about your suggestions.
But I just want to clarify what you mean here:



I'm planning to add a specific class selector to the menu, which will mean only the models of the chosen class will be avaliable for selection.

Also, you can currently change the time period by setting the g_timePeriod cvar:

1 = Original Trilogy (default)
2 = Prequels
3 = Both

Do these two things cover it?

What I mean is it would be good if you could pic a model then pic if you wanted him to be a jedi, hero and so on.

Also, the solder type person should eather have more health or more shealds.

razorace
03-28-2003, 05:02 PM
I agree. It loses impact when it's used too much.

Lord_Plo_Koon
03-28-2003, 05:03 PM
I really like the music!

master_thomas
03-28-2003, 08:02 PM
I like it too. It reminds me of the new version of "The Imperial March" (Darth Vader's theme) that Zeus put in "The Emperor's Courthouse"(please correct me if I'm wrong, or if the other ones had it)

Maybe replace some of the other music with similar songs (variations on the original songs) so it doesn't keep repeating.

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-28-2003, 08:28 PM
Thx boys - I appreciate the backup ;D

BloodRiot
03-29-2003, 02:02 AM
I say we mail bomb raven till they launch a patch that makes SP dueling available in MP ;p

Regarding the post about accelerations.. the SP system works a bit diferent regarding speed and acceleration... it's better in my opinion.. but still too fast.

One can think of countless blocking systems. I might as well throw another one... i wouldnt remove autodefense (with Movie Battles blocking button held down of course), but i would rather discourage Jedi/Sith from settling down on defense and force them to either take cover or get really agressive on the opponent.

First Renegade would have to re-assign the autoblocking chance points and connect them directly to engaged saber blocking skill...

In the curent system a jedi can forget assigning points to the defense and spend them somewhere else cuz they are not so good and if you engaged saber defense will be very efective. So the saber defense points now relate directly to engaged saber blocking chances and if not held, you'd block jack s#%t. So far so good...

Now comes the tricky part... which i do not know if it's possible or how hard it would be... basically it makes jedi access the force to predict incomming bolts... so blocking continuous bolts would drain force(if you want to take this even further... the more points you invest on force sight.. the less blocking costs)... saber blocking however would be based on simply engaging the saber blocking at the right times as is now... cuz i'm sure parrying or blocking a saber is pretty easier than blocking fast moving bolts. I do not know if thegame makes a distinction between saber hits and blaster hits... if not.. it would probably be tricky.

Anyway... here's the most practical blocking system that i could think of by simply removing the jedi player's confortable blocking feeling.

I also read about changing the stances. I agree somewhat to that but i dont consider it as important as some other aspects.
I say the fast but light, 50-50 or strong but slow attacks should be tweaked, making them ideal to diferent situations but being equally balanced between them. Meaning the changes between stances dont reflect on power vs speed but on attack vs defense types ideal to certain situations.
I'll just throw in an example:

*Blue stance: Focuses on Defense so the player gets a bonus on defense making almost all shots blockable but can do little to attack since he's focused on defense. Can only do a couple of horizontal slashes to dispose of blaster wielding enemies. Also good for blocking saber attacks, but attack is near useless vs another saber wielding opponent. Good for getting out of hotspots.

*Yellow Stance: Focuses on Attack without sacrificing too much defense. An all around style that is good for battling both saber wielding opponents and lone blaster wielding foes or in small groups (2 or 3 tops).

*Red Stance: The players will engange in a battle of agility and acrobatics. Saber attack and defense is equally matched and allows the more acrobatic and intricate moves such as the overhead jump slash, spinning moves and cartwheels. preferably both duellists should be using this stance when fighting eachother. This Stance should make Jedi an easy pray against blaster wielding opponents as bolts could be blocked but attacks are rather inefective cuz they leave them wide open for blaster fire.

Summary:
*Blue:
**Target Opponents: Soldiers and Heros
**Advantages: Great Defense vs All; Good for Large groups of Soldiers/Heros
**Disadvantages: Poor attack vs Saber;

*Yellow:
**Target Opponents: Jedi, Mandalorian or lone Soldiers/Heros
**Advantages: Better Attack vs All; Regular Defense vs All
**Disadvantages: Poor vs Large groups of Soldiers/Heros

*Red:
**Target Opponents: Jedi
**Advantages: Regular Attack vs Jedi; Regular Defense; Fancy Moves
**Disadvantages: Poor Attack vs Soldiers/Heros; Only effective vs 1 Jedi Enemy and out of sight of Soldiers/Heros.

Note: Speed and attack strength should be relatively the same on all stances.

Both the saber blocking idea and the saber stance idea could be implemented to work with eachother.

Ok.. that's enough writing for tonight. Plz comment on these ideas.. i'd like to get some feedback on these.

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-29-2003, 04:30 AM
What I mean is it would be good if you could pic a model then pic if you wanted him to be a jedi, hero and so on.

Also, the solder type person should eather have more health or more shealds.

For the first point, this would allow stormtroopers to be carrying lightsabers like the normal game - this is not what i want for my mod.
So, this is not going to be implemented...

For the second point, you may be right. I just don't want to up it too much, so that soldiers can't be killed with one saber swipe. I think this is - not only funny :D - but also important for the movie-realism feel...
Well see...

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-29-2003, 04:55 AM
BloodRiot,

That's kinda wierd - my original idea was to make blocking bolts take up force energy...!

However, I think, while it does achieve what you mention, it would also drive Jedi players mad! If they run out of Force power, they are simply stuck! If they can't block, they are dead! That is gonna get very fustrating very quickly...
The disadvantage to actively blocking is that you slow to a walking pace. That not may seem like a big deal, but I think it has a quite noticable effect - Jedi's are kind-of forced into the role of Guardian and Protector rather than, say, Hunter! Because the Jedi can't chase people down as readily as they could do before.

This is part of my effort to balance the Jedi against other classes, WITHOUT actually diminishing their power. What I hope I've done is create a situation where if the Jedi is protecting an area (or the Jedi is approaching an area your trying to protect..) and your NOT a Jedi, then your in trouble! The Jedi is THE most powerful class at close range - no question! They can saber you, trick you, grip you, fry you etc. etc.
BUT, at LONG range, their actually relatively weak. Not only do they have no long range attacks, but if your attacking them while their trying to get to you, they have to walk if they plan to stay alive! This means they either have to try and find a way to you that has cover (i.e. they have to think like any other class would), or you can easiely stay out of range of their deadly attacks...

As far as the stance-related ideas, yeah, their good ideas. I will have a think about them and make a desicion for the second release - we'll see what happens...
(The first release is going to be not much more than the current beta with all the bugs and other issues fixed...)

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-29-2003, 09:14 AM
OK boys,

I'm getting a few people together for a beta play-test...
It's taking place tomorrow (Sunday) at 1:30pm EST (6:30 UK).
We've got around 6 more player-slots avaliable. If you'd like to play, then send me an e-mail:

renegadeofphunk@3dactionplanet.com

...and if I get back to you, your in :)

Jman3ooo
03-29-2003, 11:20 AM
I'm sailing then :(.

I'll catch the next one.

RenegadeOfPhunk
04-02-2003, 04:00 PM
Phew!

I think I've (finally!) sorted out all the class changing wierdness...!
I'm gonna check and double check everything before I say I've DEFINELTY sorted it, but so far it's looking good.

So, the first full release of Movie Battles is not too far off now... :)

razorace
04-02-2003, 04:15 PM
Neat. What was the main problem?

RenegadeOfPhunk
04-02-2003, 05:05 PM
The main problem was I was sending the client index stored in playerstate to ClientBegin at the beginning of new rounds to put players back in the game, which normally is fine - unless you've been following someone in spectate and then changed your details, cos then that index gets set to the person your following! gulp!

So now I use the 'proper' index, and - sorted! :)
One of those problems that - like so many - takes 2 seconds to fix, but AGES to find!

There were a couple of other minor things too - to do with the team setting of the menus and.. ermm .. something else I can't actually remember now!

razorace
04-02-2003, 05:53 PM
Been there. It took me forever to figure out the TurAngles and ghoul2 hitzone bugs. :P

RenegadeOfPhunk
04-06-2003, 08:09 AM
Ok guys,

Build 6 is now up on the site:
Movie Battles (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/richard.hart4/)

If you have already downloaded Build 4 and the appropiate models, you need to download 3 new models for build 6 (unless you have them already of course...)

These are:

Tex360, Toonces, Arco, Mars:
Ep.I OB1 Kenobi
Download link (http://www.jediknightii.net/files/index.php?link=file&id=1087)

Kavis:
Rebel Elite
Download link (http://www.jediknightii.net/files/index.php?link=file&id=923)

Eric Landreneau:
Royal Guard
Download link (http://www.jediknightii.net/files/index.php?link=file&id=776)

I believe all the class changing problems are now sorted in this build.
Also, I've added a class selector control to the menu, so that things are a bit clearer!

I've also added a new time period section - the EU time period.
So now the g_timePeriod settings are:

1 - EU models
2 - Original Trilogy Models
4 - Prequel Models

These values can be combined by adding them together.
E.g. the default setting is 3 - which equals EU + Original Trilogy...

I've also beefed up the soldier class a bit to make it a bit more balanced against the other classes...

There are quite a few other tweaks and stuff which I won't bother listing...

RenegadeOfPhunk
04-06-2003, 03:31 PM
Just realised I left a small problem in Build 6. Selecting 'Auto Team' in the menu's wasn't quite working right...

I've fixed the problem and uploaded build 7 to the site.

Those of you who have downloaded build 6 (in the last hour or so...), you will need to delete that file and download build 7...

...sorry!

RenegadeOfPhunk
04-07-2003, 04:26 PM
OK.

I've been playing a few more games with my main man - Jman! - and while the class balance is certainly improved, I think I've decided that there is still more work to do...

Which means the final release isn't quite as near as I hoped :/

Oh well, you guys want it done properly anyway - right? :)

The hero class specifically needs some work. I won't say exactly what at the moment - I'm gonna work on it and make sure it's gonna work how I imagine it will, and then I'll let you know...

BloodRiot
04-12-2003, 12:23 AM
Any updates?

How's things going?

BTW... i havent exactly seen many servers running this mod... you suppose you could set one up? Im tired of playing vs bots ,p

UDM
04-12-2003, 07:02 AM
This mod is just awesome. Every detail of it is a close resemblance to having a place in the movies. Only problem was that the saber did occasionally pass thru the character and did not cause any damage. But I'm sure you'll fix that won't you :)

By the way, have you considered removing Red and Blue? I found out that Red will 0wn all, whether you want to block or not, and it's more of a jumping-type stance. Blue is way too lousy and you need inhuman reflexes to block while attacking. Yellow is by far still the best stance. If you don't mind my humble suggestion, it'd be awesome to have just one stance (Yellow), with a few changes here and there on the moves.

I also noticed that he who blocks the most wins. Another humble suggestion of mine: when you're on defense and successfully block an attack, you lose some force (the higher your defense, the less force you lose. How much force you use depends on how the enemy attacks (eg. DFA cuts off all force or something). When you're out of force, your blocks become less accurate, so you will be forced to strike back instead of hiding behind the saber.

UDM
04-12-2003, 07:03 AM
By the way I guess I could host a server for this, though it'd be a little too laggy. If you guys have no objections, I'll set up one right now

RenegadeOfPhunk
04-12-2003, 08:49 AM
Any updates?

How's things going?

BTW... i havent exactly seen many servers running this mod... you suppose you could set one up? Im tired of playing vs bots ,p

I've nearly finished with my changes to the Hero class. It is now much more balanced against other classes imo.
The changes will be in for the next build...

Also, there is now a farily big list of things which I've been thinking about which I think I should get into the next build. I wanna make sure their all gonna work how I think they shoudl and then I'll let you guys check 'em out...

I can't host a server myself - sorry guys.
If someone else would be willing to, that would be awesome...

UDM,

Glad you like dude :)
There is still more to come...

I don't what you mean by the saber passing through without causing damage thing. I've never seen this, and no-one else has mentioned it yet either...! Can you explain more what happens?

About the red and blue stances, I have no plans to remove them. Maybe tweak them somewhat eventually, but I don't think removing them is nessesary really. But I do know where your coming from...

I would like to try and implement the kind of system which has been talked about various times in this thread and elsewhere - namely, making the different stances do equal damage, but have different chances or defending and attacking etc.
However, I think this will take substantial effort. Not to get something basic working, but it's one of those changes that has to be treated very carefully and given a lot of effort to make sure it turns out right...
So I wanna get some other stuff out fo the way first before I embark on that epic voyage!

ABout the blocking taking up force mana, BloodRiot has already suggested this kind of thing too. I have tried it out this feature to see what it was like to play, and I do think it works out well.
So expect this feature to be in the next build...

I am hoping the next build will be ready by - at least - early next week...

Shotokan
04-12-2003, 02:32 PM
hey um... could u put the download thing on a different site because i have a stupid filter on my computer an i cant get to your site!

UDM
04-12-2003, 11:53 PM
By the way can you recommend some good maps for the mod?

RenegadeOfPhunk
04-13-2003, 04:16 AM
Personally, I find CTF maps work the best, since that emphasises the teamwork involved when the different classes are used together.
Warring Factions is my fav...

Also, there is a custom one called L-Station I've been playing recently which is pretty cool....
(Although I haven't been able to properly try out TOO many custom ones because of lack of bot waypoints...)

TFFA is also good, although the fact that the teams don't spawn in different parts of the map is a bit of a downside. I usually play Bespin Streets, Star Destroyer and Nar Shaddaa...

Shotokan
04-13-2003, 04:26 AM
hehe cant wait for this to come out officially! keep it up an maybe you'll have it out soon!

UDM
04-13-2003, 08:48 AM
Yeah it's really good, hope to see JK2files announce "Movie Battles v1 is out!"

On the sidenote, here's a couple other things I found:

- When it's jedi vs jedi, it's mainly "fight, block, move away, fight, block, move away". Instead of having the saber just have the default slash down when you attack while stationary, how about making the saber do a side slash eg. in Singleplayer, when you're stationary and just attack once, your saber will move differently, according to where your opponent is

- How about a system like promod in defense, whereby your saber deflect/block varies depending on where you look. For example, if you're facing 90 degrees away from an opponent, you're more liable to being hit. If you're facing directly, you'll be more successful in blocking. This reduces the hit-and-run tactic more often

RenegadeOfPhunk
04-13-2003, 09:32 AM
UDM,

Both good suggestions...

If only I had 4 hands and 2 brains...!

Their on the list of possibilities to investigate... :)

Wudan
04-13-2003, 09:40 AM
Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
TFFA is also good, although the fact that the teams don't spawn in different parts of the map is a bit of a downside. I usually play Bespin Streets, Star Destroyer and Nar Shaddaa...

You can rig up TFFA to spawn per CTF Spawnpoints, if they are available, or to spawn closest to x side, all you'd have to do is make a file type to read the locations of x side (so you don't have to make new maps) and make a new select spawn point call to be closest to x side when the player needs to spawn.

I currently have the spawn points in ProMod rigged up to use CTF if available for TFFA.

RenegadeOfPhunk
04-13-2003, 04:28 PM
Wudan,

Thx for the tip dude - I'll look into it..

Using avaliable CTF points for TFFA flags sounds fairly straight-forward, but I'm not sure how I'd go about finding the edge co-ordinates of the map itself...

Hmmm - investigation time :)

Wudan
04-13-2003, 04:52 PM
Make some kind of a definition file and have it load based on the map name when the map loads. Then just load in a series of coords from that file as to prefered locations for spawning certain teams. Then do some cool stuff to the Select Spawn Point functions to bias a team members spawn to be close to those locations.

It might not be a good idea, I haven't implemented it, but I think I might try it if I have some time.

razorace
04-13-2003, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
UDM,

Both good suggestions...

If only I had 4 hands and 2 brains...!

Their on the list of possibilities to investigate... :)
Investigate getting 4 hands and 2 brains or UDM's suggestions? :D

RenegadeOfPhunk
04-13-2003, 07:28 PM
Well, I've looked into it - and ...

... the 4 hands 2 brains thing isn't going to work out! Apparently it's 'biologically unfeasible' or some such nonsense!
Damn it - another fine idea dashed! ;)

Wudan,

Couldn't I try and make a system which didn't rely on seperate files?

What I was thinking was - if I could somehow find out how big the area of the map is, I could try and come up with a dividing line right down the middle of the map, and then split the existing spawn points into these two halves - each team spawning in either half..

If the map is longer lengthwise, split it that way...
If the map is longer widthwise, split it that way...

I'm guessing you SHOULD get a relatively even number of spawn points either side. If not, you could possibly move over spawn points in the larger group closest to the dividing line until they were even..

Pretty convoluted I guess. But I think not having to create extra files for the maps would be a big plus...

Of course the players wouldn't start all in the same room or whatever - you'd definetly need a seperate file for that - but the team starting in the same half of the map is much better than the current TFFA that's for sure.

What do ya think? Feasible?

razorace
04-13-2003, 08:26 PM
You know technically, length is normally the longer demension anyway. :D

RenegadeOfPhunk
04-13-2003, 08:45 PM
You know what I mean dang nab it!
...their's always a wise guy. ;)

...although I'm not sure what a dEmension is.
...maybe a dimension with dementia...?! :D

razorace
04-13-2003, 08:57 PM
Well, at least I'm not resorting to misspelling comments, that's always the last straw in the insult barrel. :D

RenegadeOfPhunk
04-13-2003, 09:29 PM
These are suppost to be insults...?!!
lol - please, stop it Razor - man, your killing me...

...I might have to start on 'yo mamma' jokes or summin'! ;)


...anyway - to get the thread back on track, I'm nearly done with the next build. Couple of days - end of the week at the latest...

Jman3ooo
04-14-2003, 07:39 AM
Yes. we don't need hero's dodging rockets.

Wudan
04-14-2003, 10:08 AM
hmmmm.... maybe have the server check for clusters of spawn points and mark each of them red or blue at gamestart ... hmmm...

Sounds like an interesting algorythm you'd be cooking up. It'd all be server side, and the effect would be nice ... hmm...

<edit>Oooooh! When the info_player_start spawns in a TFFA game, have the game check the gametype and have it act as one or the other by calling the cool spawn point cluster-checker-izer!

There's also a good chance the server would hardly ever pick the same clusters twice, and it'd be dynamic, adding depth to the gameplay and re-playability!</edit>

If you succeed, I'd like a peak at how you did it :P

RenegadeOfPhunk
04-14-2003, 11:26 AM
Certainly man - no probs.
I'll let you know how I get on... :)

Cmdr CrowTRobot
04-17-2003, 10:07 PM
Could you upload both model packs?
I have most of the models on the list, yet only a small number of them show up.

RenegadeOfPhunk
04-17-2003, 11:03 PM
Build 8 - which I hope will end up becoming the first official 'proper' release - is now avaliable for download from my site (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/richard.hart4/)


Extra features added since Build 7:


Limited dodge ability added to the Hero class (your dodge potential is shown by the 'force' bar)
Dedicated 'fire rocket' button for the Mandalorian - which means you don't need to switch weapons - very handy! :)
Upped the Jedi manna recharge, but offset this with the fact that blocking blaster fire now reduces force manna. Exactly how much depends on whether your defense button is held (you can now run at opponents and block effectively, but it reduces manna quicker...) and what you saber defense level is. (Higher means less manna used)
Other tweaks and bug fixes...



If there are features you have requested which haven't made it into this build, I haven't nessesarily forgotten or ignored them. However, if I do plan to try and implement them at some stage, it won't be till version 2.
In short, I'm drawing the line for version 1 functionality at this point...

The site now contains more extensive installation and play instructions.


Cmdr CrowTRobot:
Some models will not show up without changing the g_timePeriod cvar (see the site - near the bottom - for more details.)

Also, remember that you only see the models of the currently selected class at any one time. If you haven't already, click on the 'Class' selector above the model selector in the menu. (On the left) to choose a different class and hence a new selection of models...

btw - if anybody would be able to set up a dedicated server, I would be VERY grateful. We really do need to get LOTS of peeps online to really appreciate the teamwork possibilities of the mod.

Enjoy everybody :)

Jman3ooo
04-17-2003, 11:34 PM
Allow me to add that this mod is golden.

It enhancnes JK2 MP better than any other mod I have played.
I can not wait to play this with a full server. This adds teamwork beyond measure.

UDM
04-18-2003, 12:49 AM
It just keeps getting better ;)

But red will 0wn all when in use with the new stance. How about unassociating red with the quick new stance?

RenegadeOfPhunk
04-18-2003, 07:21 AM
When you say the new stance, you mean with the saber held above the head - right?

Why are red gonna own using that...? Any more than blue potentially could? It's arguble whether using that stance at all is an advantage - although it certainly looks cool ;)

Of course, we do need to get some serious, proper online gameplay going to really know, but to me it's looking pretty even at the moment...


Just realised that when you say red, you probably mean the red stance, not the red team!
Right - I see what your saying now...
But still, even if the new red stance is indeed the most powerful (which I actually doubt), even if it was it's OK. I mean, to have that stance, you have to have full points in both offense and defense. Your basically the best saberist you can be! You deserve to be kicking arse!

UDM
04-18-2003, 08:10 AM
Dude then again, who ever puts 2 points for attack? :D

RenegadeOfPhunk
04-18-2003, 08:53 AM
...me :D
I'd rather have other powers at full strength...

And the new stance IS relatively weak defensively...

...but as I say, we REALLY need to get some proper online games going to settle this.

Didn't you say you were gonna try and set up a server UDM? Any luck with that...?

UDM
04-18-2003, 08:59 AM
Alright I shall set up a server on Saturday, 05:00:00 Sat Apr 19 2003 GMT Time

To convert the time, go to http://www.timezoneconverter.com/cgi-bin/tzc.tzc

UDM
04-18-2003, 09:00 AM
Oh ya from there I can show you the problems I found with the mod (creators are normally too proud to find any problems :D j/k j/k)

RenegadeOfPhunk
04-18-2003, 09:13 AM
lol.

A problem ignored is a problem solved ... that's MY motto!! ;)

No, of course I'll be happy for you to demonstrate any issues you see :)

That time should be good for me. Where abouts are you btw?
I assume anybody is (potentially) invited along...?

UDM
04-18-2003, 09:34 AM
Yeah as long as it doesn't get too many

Jman3ooo
04-18-2003, 01:24 PM
Is this going to be a dedicated server or just one you host?

ANd if the latter what is your connection?

Jman3ooo
04-18-2003, 01:26 PM
One more thing make sure you set it to play CTF and post the map rotation you're going to use. This way peple can download the maps before playing rather than from your server.

UDM
04-19-2003, 05:41 AM
Originally posted by Jman3ooo
Is this going to be a dedicated server or just one you host?

ANd if the latter what is your connection?

Sorry my connection was down so I couldn't host the server. So how about tomorrow?

UDM
04-19-2003, 05:44 AM
Btw I hosted a server yesterday night, and invited some people into the game. When they heard that it was possible to block manually, they were like "COOL!". Then when they tried it out, they were complaining that it was real boring and lacked any action/skills. One guy said that it was too laggy (he was a local m8) even though his ping was only 70. Many people complained that the jedi was way too slow and they couldn't adapt to the blocking because it was hard to block, then strike and block again.

RenegadeOfPhunk
04-19-2003, 07:49 AM
I can't say why your game appeared to be laggy with the low ping - I very much doubt it's anything to do with the mod itself...

So far as the Jedi comments, I know where their coming from...

About the Jedi, I will admit that it does take a bit of practice to get used to after playing normal JKII MP. You have to plan your attacks and play in a more controlled and refined manner.
i.e. some people will now prefer other 'gunner' classes to the Jedi class now - which in itself is not a problem. THe Jedi class is balanced against other classes. It's not all-powerful. However, up close, the Jedi is the most powerful if played correctly - no doubt about it.

Now, I'm aware that this will not appeal to all. Unfortunately, that will always be the case.
But sometimes, people will end up liking it as long as they give it a chance and get used to it.

...my brother is a typical example. I first showed him the mod last weekend. The first few minutes he was playing as the Jedi, he wasn't getting very far. He wasn't getting close enough to his enemy before going for the strike. He wasn't watching for when the enemies charge clip had run out.
He also wasn't taking into account whether multiple enemies were firing at him. If they are, you need to play a bit more tactfully. Use a force power to push some down, take out one or two of the downed gunners, and then that evens the odds for example.

Basically I showed him little tricks and tips and within about - I'd say - 1/2 an hour, he was loving it and went as far as saying that the saber combat was 'greatly improved'. Sure, he has to work harder for a kill, but that's the whole point! It becomes a more rewarding experience to be a 'good' Jedi player.

I'm not trying to say that there aren't still existing issues and problems. But I make no apologies for making the saber combat a bit more involved and tactical - so when you do have a squadron of enemies pilling at you, you don't just go running in like John Wayne - you actually have to think 'Bloody Hell! How am I gonna deal with this?'

Tell ya what, let's get a game together of your friends as gunners, and some of us (I know 3 who would be up for it at least) as Jedi. So a Jedi v. Gunners game. And we'll prove that the Jedi are just as deadly as ever when played properly... :)

UDM
04-19-2003, 09:47 AM
Ok I'll host a server tomorrow (Sunday), same time

Btw I have an idea on how you can support Duel. Instead of having a LMS mode on it, just put in the saber blocking feature. Oh and I still feel jedis are too slow in movement :D

|edit| I checked, it was the mod, strangely enough. It didn't happen with other mods like Omnimod or even normal JK2. You might want to look into the matter

RenegadeOfPhunk
04-19-2003, 09:59 AM
Hmm -any chance the game could be earlier? Say around noon or something? 5:00pm isn't gonna be good for me... :(

Yeah - I'm gonna try and get duel back in, doing what you've just said, but probably not for 2nd release now. It's not gonna be that hard, but it's a bit of a pain in the arse at this stage...

Hmmm - well, I must say I'm a bit surprised by the lag stuff. I certainly will try and get to the bottom of that...

ANd btw - about the Jedi movement speed, you do know you can now run at people and still block right? Or do you think the Jedi should just run faster in general? Say, the same speed as, say, the Hero now...?

RenegadeOfPhunk
04-19-2003, 12:07 PM
btw - Movie Battles is probably 'slightly' more power-hungry than normal JKII MP. So slower computers may notice a slight decrease in performance. If I get a chance, I'll try confirming whether this is actually true and coming up with an idea for a new minimum spec, although I don't think it's that different.

What I'm getting at is, when you say it's more laggy, do you actually mean it seems to perform slightly more sluggishly? These are two different things. I still don't really see how my mod could be introducing lag, except for maybe placing a slightly higher processor load on the server.
(And I mean 'slightly'. I see absolutely NO difference on my comp. between normal MP and Movie Battles for example, although it is a 1.6 GHz athlon...)

Cmdr CrowTRobot
04-19-2003, 01:06 PM
Couple of other model-related things.

First of all, only a number of the models supported show up when you are choosing. For instance the only usable Han Solo is the bespin one. The only usable Ben is the one with no cloak.

As for the Clonetrooper, by far THE best clonetrooper model has to be ALIEN_JL's clone pack. Shaders, all the ranks, the actual correct shape and everything. See if you could perhaps include this one as supported. I got it at
http://jedidown4.online.fr/skins/clonetr.zip

RenegadeOfPhunk
04-19-2003, 01:27 PM
Ahh - right. Yes, this is because the only avaliable skin is the default one. Any others are effectively ignored.
I will look into getting skins other than the default avaliable in the next version...

Just downloaded ALIEN_JL's clonetrooper from your link, and yeah, it's cool. (Nice and shiny :) )

It'll make it in for the first version - although, again, you'll only be able to use the default skin until the second version...

UDM
04-19-2003, 07:56 PM
Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
Hmm -any chance the game could be earlier? Say around noon or something? 5:00pm isn't gonna be good for me... :(

Yeah - I'm gonna try and get duel back in, doing what you've just said, but probably not for 2nd release now. It's not gonna be that hard, but it's a bit of a pain in the arse at this stage...

Hmmm - well, I must say I'm a bit surprised by the lag stuff. I certainly will try and get to the bottom of that...

ANd btw - about the Jedi movement speed, you do know you can now run at people and still block right? Or do you think the Jedi should just run faster in general? Say, the same speed as, say, the Hero now...?

Hmmm...k 4pm GMT time. Which means 4 hrs 11 mins from now

Regarding the jedi movement speed, I was referring to it in terms of the fact that it runs slower than in jk2. Maybe it's just me, but did you tweak their running speed?

RenegadeOfPhunk
04-19-2003, 08:33 PM
Oh right - so five in the morning?!
lol - nice time :) (I live in the UK)
Actually, I will probably be up at that time funnily enough, although I'm probably gonna be a little drunk! ;)

Are you on ICQ or MSN? If so, could you PM me your details please...

UDM
04-19-2003, 11:33 PM
K server will be up in 30 more minutes..

UDM
04-19-2003, 11:37 PM
Btw server name = Movie Battles Build 8

RenegadeOfPhunk
04-19-2003, 11:49 PM
UDM - check ya PM's...

Shotokan
04-22-2003, 02:50 AM
It is not working! I load up Movie Battles and try to start a map, but when it is still in the "starting up" screen an error pops up saying "Client/Server game mismatch: basejk-1/team/assault 0.1b" What the heck does that mean? Is it fixable?

Shotokan
04-22-2003, 02:53 AM
It is not working! I load up Movie Battles and try to start a map, but when it is still in the "starting up" screen an error pops up saying "Client/Server game mismatch: basejk-1/team/assault 0.1b" What the heck does that mean? Is it fixable?

.:Solusar:.
04-22-2003, 03:08 AM
Aww, whats wrong shotokan?
Anyway what are you trying to do exactly?

Shotokan
04-22-2003, 03:16 AM
Play the "Movie Battles" mod. It is not working!

RenegadeOfPhunk
04-22-2003, 07:14 AM
Shotokan,

I assure you, it's not a problem with the mod itself!
Sounds like there is a conflict happenning with another mod on your machine.

First of all, I would check your base folder and make sure that you don't have any code mods in there.
i.e. make sure you only have maps, models etc. in your base folder.
Coding mods always go into a seperate folder in your GameData directory...

Also, double-check that your movie battles folder is 'Movie Battles' exactly (space in middle). Although this should only be a problem when you play online.

Double check those two things and post back here if you still can't get it to run...

RenegadeOfPhunk
04-22-2003, 07:33 AM
Guys,

I'm leaving one of my computers on as a dedicated server.
I say dedicated, but I do use it for other things sometimes, although rarely. So it should be avaliable most of the time...

It's not exactly a state-of-the-art machine, and it's sharing my cable connection, so it won't have the best ping times ever (especially for you USA / Canada lot, since it's here in the UK), but anyway, it's avaliable to all. (No password).

The ip address: 81.99.86.70

It's running Build 8, CTF maps - 30 mins each map.
Max 16 players

Please, feel free to drop in. I'm probably gonna end up hanging around most nights for a couple of hours if you fancy a game. Usually around 10-12pm GMT...

...and please feel free to point out any issues you find. (Constructive criticism would be ideal! lol :) )

RenegadeOfPhunk
04-22-2003, 07:53 AM
Just to let you know about issues that are already known about and I am currently working on fixing...

* The mandalorian rocket is sometimes invisible! It still fires, and it still causes damage to the target - you just can't see it!
This is a VERY strange problem (even wierder than the phantom bullets thing!). It seems to happen consistantly on the Bespin CTF map, and only very rarely on other maps. Why this is, at the moment I have no clue! I'm looking into it...

* Sometimes the join button in the menu's doesn't work first time - you have to effectively join twice before you actually join the game. Again, I'm looking into it.

* It seems in my efforts to make the soldier class a bit more balanced, I may have made it a bit TOO good! I'm probably going to half their current health to re-balance them...

BloodRiot
04-22-2003, 08:06 AM
Renegade... since the rocket is fully functional... you still want me to re arrange the mandalorian model so the rocket disapears from the jetpack after its been fired?

I'll probably sieze the oportunity to fix the saber issue although it wont change your mod cuz mandalorian cant use saber :)

Anyway just lemme know.

Cheers.

RenegadeOfPhunk
04-22-2003, 08:29 AM
BloodRiot,

I'm still working on getting the skin changed properly. This process is complicated slightly by the extra code I've added to force models according to team and class.

If I can get it working, I'l let you know. And then we can get the proper rocket action - ermm - rocking :)

What I was wondering also is, would it be possible to either change the size of the CTF flag, or maybe make it transparent? Cos it's a real pain when your carrying it - especially as the jedi. It gets in the way and you can't really see what your doing!

BloodRiot
04-22-2003, 11:17 AM
Either way, since I lead a very uninsteresting life and my common unemployed afternoon is really boring... My mandalorians are finally saber friendly, the jetpack and the rocket are now 2 separate meshes and the caps are now fixed.

So now it's up to you my friend.

I just have to repack everything and re-post it at jk2.net and stuff... so my work with them fetts is finally over.

Cheers.

RenegadeOfPhunk
04-22-2003, 11:20 AM
Cool dude.

Man, OK. I'm gonna re-double my efforts to get the skin changed. I've gotta get that rocket-action looking proper authentic... :)


What do you mean by the caps are fixed...?

BloodRiot
04-22-2003, 03:39 PM
I mean when the fetts got dismembered.. the caps where not showing and you'd see a gap instead of burnt flesh. That's fixed now.

Jman3ooo
04-22-2003, 04:09 PM
In assets0.pk3/models/map_objects/mp/flag.jpg
and
assets0.pk3/models/map_objects/mp/flag2.jpg

Change theese two to be transparent and drop it in a .pk3 file to make the flags transparent. I have no image editing experience so Dont ask me to do it :/

Shotokan
04-23-2003, 12:50 AM
Ok. I got rid of all my animation and saber mods, but I still can't play it. The same message pops up.

Jman3ooo
04-23-2003, 12:57 AM
What message?

Shotokan
04-23-2003, 01:05 AM
Client/Server game mismatch: basejk-1/team/assault 0.1b <----- This error message

Jman3ooo
04-23-2003, 02:25 AM
Simple...

Remove jetpack.pk3 from your base folder.

Shotokan
04-23-2003, 04:31 AM
But.... I don't have a jetpack.pk3 in my base folder...

RenegadeOfPhunk
04-23-2003, 11:54 AM
It's not nessesarily to do with the jetpack mod Jman, although I can see why you'd think that...

Both the original jetpack mod and Movie Battles have both been written under the project name of Team Assault. So the message probably just means Movie Battles is conflicting with another code mod...

Hmm. Well, all I can suggest is totally clearing your base folder of any non-standard files. (I don't mean delete them, just move them to a different folder - say your desktop). You should be able to at least run Movie Battles then (although a lot of the models will show up as Kyle...)

Then you can try putting in your custom files back into your base directory and see which one is causing the problem...

That's the only thing I can suggest at this stage I'm afraid :/

...and just to double-check, post up EXACTLY the names of all the files in your 'Movie Battles' folder...

BloodRiot
04-23-2003, 03:11 PM
Im gonna turn the standard JO flags into the hover drone of JK1 ctf... but i'll need a good md3 importer for max r4...anyone knows where to find it? i found one for max r3 but it fails to initialize in r4.

The reason i need an importer is to check the original flag for tags and stuff.. cuz my initial tryout was sucessfull but messy.. the drone was not facing the right direction and its a bit silly...besides... i couldnt get the drone texture maps working either.

Cheers.

Jman3ooo
04-23-2003, 07:48 PM
This is just an ide... No promises, but do a search for "Team Assault" in your C:\Program Files\LucasArts\Star Wars JK II Jedi Outcast folder.

Make sure it is for Files containing not files named. Another thing that might have been made by team assault... Wasn't there a grappling hook?

RenegadeOfPhunk
04-23-2003, 07:51 PM
The new droid-flags which BloodRiot has knocked up for me are REALLY sweet! They look great. And their a lot more star-warsey!
And - very importantly - these new 'flags' don't get in the way of your view in third person, which is really quite important.

I'm gonna add some proper sound support for them (driod-like bleeps and hums etc.), and then get them into the next build.

And I'm nearly done getting the rocket to dissapear thanx to BloodRiot's mandalorian alterations.
Well, I KNOW I can get it to work a certain way, but it's not the neatest solution. I'm still trying to get plan A to work.

If not, plan B is still do-able, so either way it'll get done.... :)

...BloodRiot is THE man! :D

RenegadeOfPhunk
04-23-2003, 07:55 PM
Na, the grappling hook was never released, but MIGHT make it's way into Movie Battles. (Notice the might in capitals! :) )

razorace
04-23-2003, 08:05 PM
try just turning off the surfaces of the rocket on your model.

RenegadeOfPhunk
04-23-2003, 08:12 PM
That's what I'm trying to do.
I've made a thread about this in the NRG coding forum...

...although I can't actually access them right at this moment... :/

I'll quickly summarize here. The line of code I believe should remove the rocket section is:


trap_G2API_SetSurfaceOnOff( ci->ghoul2Model, "jetpack_rocket", 0x00000002/*G2SURFACEFLAG_OFF*/ );


I'm triggering this on an entity event. Using the debugger, I can say for a fact that I know:

a. The above line of code is actually getting called when it should
b. that the ci pointer is valid and correct

(ci is a pointer to the clientInfo_t structure of the mandalorian client...)

...but the rocket does not dissapear... :confused:

My guess at the moment is that there is some kind of 'refresh' function I need to call after the above call, but that is really just a guess at the moment...

razorace
04-23-2003, 09:15 PM
It's probably that surface flag.

0x00000002 is only used once.

The standard flags used are...

0 = on
0x00000100 = off

RenegadeOfPhunk
04-23-2003, 09:35 PM
just tried using 0x100 instead of 0x2 ...

..and...

...no difference. damn!

razorace
04-23-2003, 11:28 PM
well, where in the code are you trying to do this?

RenegadeOfPhunk
04-23-2003, 11:34 PM
Go to the NRG forums -I've given a better explanation of what I'm doing there...

...and I've got it to kind of semi-work. I'm posting an update there now...

RenegadeOfPhunk
04-24-2003, 12:00 AM
Good news...

...due to Jman's outstanding detective work, I now know what the wierd invisible-rocket problem is about...

It'll be sorted for the next build

Shotokan
04-24-2003, 02:21 AM
effects - jetpack - idle.efx, onground.efx, sidejet.efx, thrust.efx, vssver.scc

Models - players - boba fett, thrindel sev, and khyron jinn along with their model_packoff.skin and model_default.skin

music - Heroes Victory, HeroesVictory.mp3.sfk, HeroesVictory.mp3.SFL, Silence, Silence.mp3.sfk, ThemeMusic, ThemeMusic.mp3.sfk, ThemeMusic.mp3.SFL, VillansVictory, VillansVictory.mp3.sfk, VillansVictory.mp3.SFL

shaders - clonelight, ct_fisto, gl_dooku, hook, krishara, Mandalorian, shaderlist, vssver.scc

sound - jetpack - idle, ignite, jetpackoff, onground, thrust, vssver.scc

ui - assets - jkmp - and the .menu files, menudef.h, jk2hud, jk2mpingame, jk2mpmenus, menus, vssver.scc (a whole lotta stuff to type. sorry I'm short on time.)

vm - cgame.map, cgame.qvm, jk2mpgame.map, jk2mpgame.qvm, ui.map, ui.qvm

(In the Movie Battles folder itself) - games.log, jk2mpconfig.cfg, mc_blastech (.pk3 file)

All right... I think that is it.

Jman3ooo
04-24-2003, 02:55 AM
He means the files in you /base not the .pk3 files.

Shotokan
04-24-2003, 04:31 AM
AWW MAN! It took me awhile to get through those... Well... here we go

Base Files (I'm not gonna type it as a .pk3 file. I'll give you the map, mod, etc. name)

Jedi Archives 2
Bushido Map Pack and Kengou skin
Cheshire - Arco Vader Model
City of Thaloska Beta
Covenant Elite
Kit Fisto
L - Station (CTF MAP)
Duel of the Fates Version 2
EP2 Sounds
EP2 weapons
EP2 Yoda (The photo realistic one)
Kit Fisto Sounds
Ganner Rhysode skin
Dash Rendar model
Episode 1 Obi
Darth Maul Model
IRG Coruscant Final (From IRG's Mappack)
Irimi-Ai's animation mod 106
Jango Fett
Jedi Academy Map
Jedi Council v.3
Jedijan Final
KC Old Ben Kenobi
Ki Adi Mundi
KOR Mines
Mace Windu VM
Mapextras
Mapextras2
Major Clod's Han Solo
Monketsu (Gallimar Skin Pack)
Nightelf
Omnimod 1_5 sound
Omnimod 2_1 sound
Yarael Poof Model
Jedimod Compatible Hiltpack
Replacement Skies (mapping purposes)
ROTJ Bowcaster
Royal Guard
SP Maul
Qui-gon-jinn
Thinsaberz
Universal
Vampire Hunter D
Wookiee
zbotfiles

RenegadeOfPhunk
04-24-2003, 08:24 AM
Well, actually I meant your Movie Battles 'folder' rather than the .pk3 file (I know what's in that!)

But what you've listed in your base folder is probably far more helpful actually.. :)

Hmm, well, I'm unsure about some of the mods your listing.
Maybe some others on the forum can spot something I'm missing...

Omnimod 1_5 sound
Omnimod 2_1 sound - these are just sounds?

Irimi-Ai's animation mod 106
Jedi Archives 2
Jedi Council v.3
...what are these?

Also, I've heard of a SAGA-enabled map which has code alterations packed in with the map itself. Is this rumour true?

RenegadeOfPhunk
04-24-2003, 08:38 AM
Shotokan,

Just realised something.

Have you actually extracted the files from within the .pk3 file itself?

i.e. do you literally have all those files sitting in your movie battles folder?!

If so, you don't need to do that, and that COULD be the source of the problem. You just need to have the .pk3 file placed in the Movie Battles folder - that it. You don't need to 'extract' the files out of the .pk3...
Just delete the whole Movie Battles directory and start again.
And then please follow the installation instructions on the site (and on the first page of this thread - 7th post) to the letter...

razorace
04-24-2003, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk

Also, I've heard of a SAGA-enabled map which has code alterations packed in with the map itself. Is this rumour true?
Yep, it's true. I think you're thinking of the Anchorhead map. It includes ASk's bug fixes for the Saga code.

Shotokan
04-25-2003, 01:45 AM
oOo.... hehe... ok I'll try that. And those other things you were questioning about... The Irimi-Ai thing is an animation mod. It changes the roll, blue uppercut, and force get up thing. And those last two things are maps. Jedi Council Griffinclaw 3 and Jedi Archives 2.

Shotokan
04-25-2003, 02:25 AM
Woohoo!! It works! The problem was that I extracted everything FROM the .pk3 file into the "Movie Battles" folder. Woops.. :headbump

Jman3ooo
04-25-2003, 03:13 AM
HeHe...

I told you you should have made an install file :p.

Shotokan
04-25-2003, 05:58 AM
LoL. Well that teaches me a lesson...

o btw... the mod rocks!

RenegadeOfPhunk
04-25-2003, 07:53 PM
Thx Shotokan :)

btw - good news.

As well as fixing the rocket-sometimes-not-visible-on-certain-maps problem, I've also managed to get the rocket section of the new mandalorian models disappearing like a charm :)

For the coders...

the problem with the line I posted earlier what that I was adjusting the client model, when I should have been adjusting the centity model. DOH! :rolleyes:

so, the new revised, working line is:


trap_G2API_SetSurfaceOnOff( cg_entities[es->eventParm].ghoul2, "jetpack_rocket", 0x00000002);


Sorted mate ;)

BloodRiot
04-25-2003, 09:19 PM
Great News buddy... can't wait to see that in action.

master_thomas
04-26-2003, 01:36 AM
Wow, it's been a long time since I have looked here. Can someone please give me a summary of what has happened since my last post. I'm too lazy to read all that.:rolleyes:















If noone wants to give me the summary, don't worry, I'll follow along from here.

Jman3ooo
04-26-2003, 02:02 PM
Well the most pesky bug that were just fixed were an invisible rocket.

Renegade just added a feature so when you fire the rocket (Calls the jump animation) the Mandalorian's rocket disappears. It calls the jump animation so that he is seeming to do a flip and fire the rocket.

I beleive the biggest feature still to be added before release is replacing the CTF flags with seeker droids.

BloodRiot
04-26-2003, 11:41 PM
Not seeker droids... it's a hover drone similar to the flags in JK1.

I used a bit of criative liberty so they are not exactly the same... I worked with what i could remember... anyway.. they work and dont obscure the line of sight which was the main goal.

:)

UDM
05-01-2003, 04:44 AM
So when's the next build?

RenegadeOfPhunk
05-01-2003, 11:25 AM
...soon :)

I haven't been working much on the mod last week, but I'll get the last couple of things I've been working on finished off - probably either by the end of this week or beginning of next...

UDM
05-02-2003, 01:23 PM
What modifications would there be? Will you focus more on jedis? How about the duel thing I suggested?

Btw I just thought of something. In Duel, players like having the jedis to move quickly. How about you set the movement speed to default as in JK2's, while FFA and other game modes have your intended speed

Just a thought

RenegadeOfPhunk
05-02-2003, 02:08 PM
Well, to just give a brief breakdown of the main new features (so far) which will be in for build 9:

* Fix for the 'invisible' rocket in certain maps.

* More realistic looking rocket-fire function - the rocket now get's removed from the Mandalorian model (you will need BloodRiot's new Mandalorian models (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/richard.hart4/Mandalorian_v2.zip) for this to work...)

* New CTF 'flags' (droid models) which don't obscure third-person view. (Thx - again - to BloodRiot :) )

* Moving slowly now produces no footsteps - allowing for stealth play.

* Locational damage adjustment. At the moment it's:

Head shot - x3 damage
Chest - x2 damage
Everywhere else - normal damage
(This setup, however, may be subject to change after play-testing.)

I'm working on a couple of other things too, but I don't want to say more until I've done more on them...

I will try and get Duel back in (as I have already said I will), I'm just not sure when. My main focus at the moment (and the main focus overall of the mod) is teamplay between all the classes.

I may well have special settings for duel (when I get it back in), but I have no solid plans for that as yet...

RenegadeOfPhunk
05-07-2003, 07:43 PM
Just to give you guys an update, Build 9 is done, but I want to playtest it properly before I give it out.

Also, I have decided I want to try and get proper objective play in sooner rather than later.
I should have more news on this soon...

Shotokan
05-09-2003, 05:55 AM
Yay!

RenegadeOfPhunk
05-12-2003, 10:44 PM
OK guys,

Build 9 is now ready for download from my site (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/richard.hart4/) .

As well as the new features listed a couple of posts up, there are also a few more things:

* A quick-fire thermal button for both hero's and soldiers. This instantly fires a thermal a set range - detonation on impact. VERY handy to catch the Jedi off their guard! ;)

* A sprint button. This is a toggle action button which enables any class to increase their running speed for a certain amount of time. However, you must spend a relative amount of time 'recovering' after sprinting. (Full details on the site)

* A couple of Jedi roll moves have been replaced with cartwheels and flips. (Again - more details on the site.)

I know I've said this before, but I really do believe I am getting very close indeed to the first full release of Movie Battles. Any major issues I know of have (to my knowledge) been sorted, and I can say quite confidently that the class balance is pretty much spot on now.

I plan to release Movie Battles v1.0 (hopefully) by the end of the week :D

I can then start work on THE major feature planned for version 2....
... objective-based play!

Enjoy :)