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Kray San Gin
03-17-2003, 03:42 PM
JK2 would be closer to the films...

-if sabres didn't move slower depending on your fighting style. (A light sabre weighs only as much as its hilt. Red stance should not move the blade as if it weighed 30 pounds!)

-if sabre ability were more focused on defense rather than offense. (in the films simply being tapped by a sabre would severely wound a jedi. Improve the game realism by allowing jedis to improve their defense tactics, leading to more exciting battles where one well targetted strike could end the fight)

-if there were a wider variety of fighting styles. (Jedis are not limited to blue, yellow and red stance... or even purple or orange. Jedi, like martial artists, have different styles that differ more in posture and sword striking techniques.)

-if players couldn't just allocate points to boost their ability. Instead, it would be better if their amount of battle experience and percentage of wins were to determine a jedi's power. (A jedi that had fought 2000 battles and won 90% of those battles would be a jedi master, giving the player access to new moves, force powers and bonus abilities. On the other hand, a player that had fought 2000 battles and only won 10% of those fights would remain a warrior)

These are just some of my thoughts. I'd be happy to read some of your ideas about how this game could be improved to more closely match the films. :deathii:

Hekx
03-17-2003, 03:50 PM
I personally liked the sound of removing Sabre Throw and replacing it with manual blocking. :)

Vader is the only one who throws his sabre in the movies, and that looks nothing like the one in JKII. :D

The ideas sound good, but just remember, most teams don't plan to make JKIII. ;)

Kray San Gin
03-17-2003, 05:06 PM
with the idea that manual blocking would be a nice addition, I have to say that removing sabre toss might be a mistake.

Remember when I mentioned that a Jedi Master would have certain perks? Well, sabre toss might be more respected if the person using it were a Master.

Many people don't like toss because it is abused. Personally, I use toss as part of my strategy BUT 99% of the time it is used to counter DFA.

I still catch flack for that but I think it's fair.

razorace
03-18-2003, 03:12 AM
Congratulations you hit a total of 4 of 4 things planned.

The various saber styles isn't really possible at this point in time. But there are other people in teh community that are working very hard on it. We hope it will be a possibility soon. :)

As for saber throw, it'll probably remove in the game as a "force power", and will be like physically throwing the saber with a bit of force power thrown in exactly like Vader in RotJ. The flight path will be like a very big throwing knife (since the blade has no mass). There will be no auto return and you'll have to retreive your blade like you have to in SP.

Alesh
03-18-2003, 01:04 PM
I've just tried a mod with manual blocking (Movie Battles) and i think it works great, plus I noticed something in the mod which might be a god idea: you walk instead of running if you are holding the block key.
Altought walk might be a little extreme, I think reducing one's speed while blocking would be a good idea.

Kray San Gin
03-18-2003, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by razorace
. . . . . . . As for saber throw, it'll probably remove in the game as a "force power", and will be like physically throwing the saber with a bit of force power thrown in exactly like Vader in RotJ. The flight path will be like a very big throwing knife (since the blade has no mass). There will be no auto return and you'll have to retreive your blade like you have to in SP.

Well, I don't disagree with the idea as it makes for a great compromise for everyone. Good thinking!

Although, you may also remember that in the movies Darth Vader was also known for force launching crates and other large objects at Luke. Even in the single player missions you visit the academy and see padawans force pushing/pulling massive stones.

My point is that if a jedi/sith can hurl and control large objects (i.e. Yoda lifting an X-Wing) then manipulating a sabre in flight isn't that much of a stretch of the imagination.

What we're really dealing with IMHO are those who are just whining about being hit. If we added the ability to launch large objects and crush our enemies, people would beg for that to be removed as well, despite it being closer to the films.

This is simply a case of the "squeeky wheel getting the greese". In Jedi plus mod you can actually knock the sabre to the ground off of your opponents toss. I think this is the right direction... more efforts on defence and less on how to stop tossing.

:)

Alesh
03-18-2003, 02:06 PM
I see three problems with saber throw:

1-You throw it faster than you attack with blue style.
2-The "bug" with throwing then pusing which makes it unblockable.
3-In the movies I've never seen anyone moving any faster than walking (emperor with lightning) while using the force, but here you can throw your saber and roll, flip, run, jump, or even use other force powers.

I think you should be mostly defenseless while throwing (if you are controlling the saber's path with the force instead of throwing it then pulling it back), only able to walk, and unable to jump and use the force (or make it so when you do one of there things while moving the saber with the force, the saber drops to the ground).

This saber to the ground part made me think about something... will there be a punch (or just unarmed) "weapon" in MotF? (I don't really like it being an emote, punching while holding a rocketlauncher look silly, and makes the "victim" perfom the damaged animation, which is even sillier considering being hit by a saber or a rocket doesn't force this).

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-18-2003, 02:28 PM
I personally think that the argument of 'The force allows you to do this and that, so THIS should obviously be possible' may seem sensible, but if carried too far, can lead to crazy situations.

I agree, saber throw in principle should be perfectly possible for even a padawan to master to some degree - if you go by what Jedi's can do in the movies.

But if you can throw the saber out, control it's path and bring it back to you, then why can't you send the saber out and just hold it there? ANd then fight people from a reasonable distance without having to physically be there to slash them? You could just hide round a corner (presumebly you wouldn't even have to poke your head round - surely a Jedi could 'see' round the corner using the force) and then float his saber around slashing whoever he likes, like some kind of phantom enemy. (In fact, isn't there some Star Wars book where this exact thing happens?)

Like you say - a light-saber hilt is small and light, it surely wouldn't drain that much force-power to do that....

However, that to me would be anything BUT true to the SW movies, even though it's 'realistic' in principle.

So for me, movie realism means just that - what you see in the movies. Nothing more, nothing less.
The only time you would break that rule is if it is ABSOLUTELY nessesary to so for gamplay reasons - but this should still be rare...

razorace
03-18-2003, 06:37 PM
1. When someone smacks your hand hard, you lose control of an object. The same applies to the force. A sudden change in the object or some thing with a high velocity is harder to handle than a nonmoving object. In that way, if someone smacks the saber while in the air it'll be harmlessly knocked away and leave the attacker totally defenseless.

2. "This weapon is your life." Throwing your saber is VERY dangerous. All it takes to lose is to have your opponent bat away the saber and charge you.

3. A saber blade is massless but it requires a lot of heft to cut thru solid objects. As far as we've seen, all object rotations with the force are very gentle and outside of combat. It's very likely that using the force to manipulate anything other than to just moving it requires more concentration (which isn't something you can do in combat)

As such, the best solution is probably to have a set thrown flight path with a minimal amount of force abjustability.

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-18-2003, 07:01 PM
Depends who's doing the smacking, and who's being smacked!

Yoda could lift an X-wing! I doubt some random joe trying to knock a saber under HIS control is gonna get very far. I would compare that to a flea trying to move my hand by head-butting it...

The second point is true, but again, for a powerful enough Jedi, I really don't see the possibility of the saber being smacked away being an issue...

And yes, if the Jedi is right in the middle of a massive ruck, I don't think the phantom-sabering idea would work at all - your right about that.
But what I'm talking about is a Jedi who has managed to keep hidden from the main battle. In which case, he isn't directly in the middle of the combat - and so can therefore keep his concentration...

But all I'm saying is - just because a particular trick or ability should be 'possible' in theoretical terms, doesn't mean your true to the movies if you include it - that's all...

razorace
03-18-2003, 07:20 PM
Most of a Jedi's combat ability comes from their ability to be in tune with the force and "see" into the future. It's likely that using all your concentration to control your "phantom blade" would cause you to lose your combat sense, not be effective, tire easily, AND defenseless. Basically, it's more effective, easier, and safer to actually wade into battle than to stand on the sidelines and attack with your saber.

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-18-2003, 07:28 PM
More effective - undoubedly.
Easier - probably.

But safer?! Being personally in the middle of a firefight, or being hidden on the sidelines...?!!

Anyway, this is getting off topic!

Back to movie realism!! :)

razorace
03-18-2003, 08:30 PM
It seems on topic to me. :D

Anyway, Jedi seem perfectly ok doing insane things. Dooku just stood there in the middle of a live fire zone (and we KNOW shots were zinging pass that balcone. Anakin AND Obi jumped freely into a miles far freefall.

Personally, I think that Force abilities that involve your body are much easier to do. (Force Speed, Force Combat, Force Jump, etc.) Jedi can do Saber Combat for far longer than other force powers without fatiguing. It's probably part of a general mind/body/force philosophy of the Jedi.

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-18-2003, 09:27 PM
I was just trying to make a point about defining what movie realism is, and now somehow we've moved on to the meta-physics of the force!!

Your blank refusal to recognise I have any kind of valid point is driving me mad!! Mad I tell you!

You know, I'm not positive that the exact nature of the force has been proven as yet. There were theories that it follows classic particle theory, with the force interacting through force-packets - if you will.
But now I do believe modern evidence shows the force exibits properties of particle / wave duality....!!
I may be wrong, but your argument could be pure conjecture.

Personally, I think more tests are needed...

'Frank, could you get OB1 back into the test-lab and get him to wave the saber about with his mind some more - we need conclusive results God Damn it!! And don't let him bloody mind-trick you again this time...!'


Dooko can stand in the middle of a fire-fight and not get a scratch ... because it's a film!

Han, Luke and Chewwie can fight their way through a death star and save the princess ... because it's a film!

The force will be with them - always ... because it's a film!!

You don't have to have written a thesis on the force to discuss movie realism!!

*Holds head in his hands and softly sobs!*

Kray San Gin
03-18-2003, 09:30 PM
Sadly, my in depth response written this afternoon never made it to the board... :: sigh ::

Here is the short version of what I wrote:

Sabre tossing isn't unfair and it isn't unsuitable for the game. A Jedi having the ability to control it in flight and return it to his hand is also on par with what we've seen in the films.

Jedi in game and in the movies have proven that it isn't the weight of the object that matters but the mastery of the force. A Jedi that has a rudimentary understanding of the force cannot use it to manipulate a pencil to write his name but could probably lift a rock easily enough. On the other hand, a Jedi master could lift an X-Wing without breaking a sweat and then likely force knit a sweater with the force if he had a mind to.

All this to say, that a Jedi sabre tossing his opponent and switching it's direction mid-flight to chase him down would seem to fit with what the movies, books and games have already told us about the force and how Jedis use it.

What this all boils down to, IMHO, is that people don't like losing and when someone with good timing begins sabre tossing it doesn't take long for the opponent to die.

In reality, the whole "shields" concept also seems a far cry from the films. To my knowledge Darth Vader, Obi Wan, Luke, Yoda or any other jedi/sith character never wore personal shield generators and one tap of a sabre could disable or kill a person. With that bit of evidence, it's quite clear that the real issue isn't that sabre toss isn't fair or consistent with the films, rather it is just the complaining of those who don't feel very heroic by dying.

As many people who complain about toss, you will find who also complain about DFA, lunge or anything else that ultimately defeats them.

Kray San Gin
03-18-2003, 09:33 PM
Originally posted by Alesh
I've just tried a mod with manual blocking (Movie Battles) and i think it works great, plus I noticed something in the mod which might be a god idea: you walk instead of running if you are holding the block key. . .

Could you tell me where I might download this mod? Sounds interesting.

razorace
03-18-2003, 09:45 PM
You don't have to have written a thesis on the force to discuss movie realism!!
Arrrghhhhh!!
It's much easier to simulate something if you have clear concept of the rules of the system.
You don't have to get angry about it. I'm just trying to have a conversation. :)

Jedi in game and in the movies have proven that it isn't the weight of the object that matters but the mastery of the force.

The dialog of the movies and the on screen actions are a bit contradictary on this subject. It's pretty obvious that lifting a X-wing with the force takes much more concentration and effort from pulling a map crsytal across the room. If the mass, location, or velocity had no effect on the effort level. Jedi could easily fly, knock down buildings with the force, etc. This has never been shown by any of the jedi (even Yoda). I believe the dialog is suppose to mean that your "oneness" with the Force makes you able to do "impossible" and your belief in something being "impossible" holds you back (and not that "everything is possible"). Sorry, that sounds very confusing. :)

razorace
03-18-2003, 09:48 PM
Originally posted by Kray San Gin
Could you tell me where I might download this mod? Sounds interesting.

Right now the only way to get MotF R2 is @ http://personal.palouse.net/razorace/MotFR2.zip.

Unfortunately, all the jk2 file sites / gaming news sites haven't posted anything about the mod. I'm not a PR dude and most of the sites are flat out overwhelmed and/or lazy.

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-18-2003, 09:54 PM
*sob*

...I'm not angry.
Yoda told me that anger leads to the dark side (or is it hate - I can't remember)...

*sob*

On a serious note, I think this is a case of over-analysing something to the point where you've forgotten what the point was in the first place.

Sorry guys, I'm bailing out of this topic...

Nooooo. I forgot my parachute!!

S*******T!!

P.S. Sorry about this guys - maybe it'll help if I explain that I'm a bit drunk...

razorace
03-18-2003, 10:00 PM
That's explains everything. :D

razorace
03-18-2003, 10:17 PM
Oh sorry, I thought he was talking about MotF.

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-18-2003, 10:20 PM
OK, I'll let you off...!!

I was going to send him a PM or something rather than reply in the thread - cos I thought that would be pretty bad form to link to my mod from your forums - but then when I saw that...! :eek:

Sorry about that. Take it down if ya like...

*edit* I've deleted it...

razorace
03-18-2003, 10:26 PM
Nah, it's ok. He did ask about it. :)

Now, if you were thread hijacking, THEN I'd be upset.

Kray San Gin
03-19-2003, 09:15 AM
Originally posted by razorace
. . . It's pretty obvious that lifting a X-wing with the force takes much more concentration and effort from pulling a map crsytal across the room. If the mass, location, or velocity had no effect on the effort level. Jedi could easily fly, knock down buildings with the force, etc. This has never been shown by any of the jedi (even Yoda). I believe the dialog is suppose to mean that your "oneness" with the Force makes you able to do "impossible" and your belief in something being "impossible" holds you back (and not that "everything is possible"). Sorry, that sounds very confusing. :)

On the contrary, this makes a lot of sense! In fact, I think we're on the same wavelength, pretty much.

Again, I don't believe mass has much to do with it but, as you put it, a jedi's "oneness" with the force.

True we don't see jedi flying around or destroying buildings with the wave of a hand BUT we also notice that jedi have only so much time to manipulate the force. In other words, using the force (despite the size of an object) seems to wear a jedi down. Which means, that the force depletion in the game is spot on with the films.

Ultimately, it seems clear that a master jedi could easily sabre toss with precision and return the blade and that based on our discussion we seem to have all pointed out reasons why it isn't off course with the films.

One thing that I would actually like to see added to a mod and the films would be a Master Jedi ability to spin a sabre about their body in a cyclone to create a temporary shield. This would aid in defending against multiple direction blaster shots or to ward off multiple opponent sabre attacks. It would only last a brief amount of time, but possibly long enough to get to shelter.

On that note... perhaps we can shift this discussion to whether personal shields in JK2 should stay or go. Any thoughts?

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-19-2003, 09:49 AM
*hangover!*

Sorry guys, got a bit over-excited there!

Another thing to put in my list of things not to do when drunk:

'Don't post on public forums!'.
That's gone in right below abseiling and above carpentry!

Anyway, I wasn't trying to dis anybody's ability to reason out the nature of the force - sorry if it came across that way. Sure, you can analyse the movies and try and deduce from the evidence how the force really works - what's possible, and what isn't etc. You can come up with some fairly intelligent conculsions that way - as you have been doing.

My point, however, is that your trying to come up with scientific-like theories for a fictional concept! While it makes for an interesting discussion, no doubt, I don't think it actually helps you get to the bottom of what 'movie' realism actually is.

Put it this way - let's say in Ep.III, George decided that Jedi's need to do something that's never been seen before, maybe for the storyline or just to create a cool visual effect - whatever. Do you think he's going to spend hours pondering over some big force rule book he's written up to make sure it's possible to do or not?

Hell no!! He'll make the force do whatever he likes!

In short - trying to analyse the force like it's 'real' is not helping you maintain movie realism. Movie realism is whatever George happens to decide the Force can do in the films - period.

I'm not saying that's fact, I'm just saying that's my opinion on the matter...

I've give you a specific example of this actually. The 'movie realism' of the force changed quite drastically for me in Ep.I when George - I can only assume in some fit of madness - decided that the power of the force is directly tied to bunch of midi-chlorians!! I may not like it - I think it's one of the worst concepts EVER - but I have to accept that is now 'movie-realism'.
Whereas, before Ep.I came out - it wasn't...

As far as shields, the only time I've seen 'personal' shields is on those Destroyer droids in Ep.I and II. So I'd only have them in the game for players who were playing as those droids...

razorace
03-19-2003, 10:03 AM
Good point. Your oneness comment is exactly what I'm talking about. You can technically fly and knock down buildings if your "oneness" (or Obi-"Wan-ness") is good enough but the fatigue cost for any normal Jedi is too high at least in the "Collapse of the Force" era (PT and OT). We've even seen partial forms of these uber abilities in the Yoda vs. Dooku fight and the various Force Jumping and safe falls.

Depending on your fanboyness, you could say that pre-Collapse Jedi were much more powerful but there's no onscreen evidence on how much the Jedi's Force powers are "demnished" during the Collapse. I'd assume that it couldn't be too much of a difference because the Sith haven't shown a huge difference in skill levels above the Jedi AND civilians would catch on if the Jedi went from Dragonball Z abilities to their onscreen levels. I imagine the largest difference is in the Jedi's remote viewing abilities.

A Saber Cylone is a no go in my opinion. A fury of saber blocks would be more practical and cooling to watch in my opinion. We're shooting for a much more involving defense saber system, so such a force power would distract from the main event.

Shields gotta go. The team's opinion is to replace them with body armor. Heck the source code refers to the shields as armor. It shouldn't be hard to change. Bolted on visual armor shards are probably doable with the ghoul2 system but I'd need some serious modeller help in such a event.

Kray San Gin
03-19-2003, 10:08 AM
Ah, but my friend, in this little corner of the web you are outnumbered!

True that this game is based on a movie of science-fiction and that good ol' Lucas can change any facet of the film any time he chooses and also true that the force is not based in scientific fact BUT this area of the message board is about discussing features of the game that do or do not comply consistantly with the information already given in the films so far!

I can't tell you that sabre tossing is appropriate because George Lucas is about to have a scene in the upcoming film that depicts sabre tossing at its best because it hasn't happened. I can, on the other hand, discuss its relevance in relation to the gameplay based on what I have seen, though, and this is exactly what we've been doing.

I don't mean any offence by this, as I'm sure you know. I'm simply pointing out that this discussion was brought up because from what I've witnessed in the films and after hearing many players complain I felt there was enough evidence to back up sabre toss in the game.

As for personal shields... I think they need to go. The only sabre defence I'm willing to stick with are the shadow troopers who wore armor that reduced sabre damage. That, at least, was a more creative way to handle the damage system.

razorace
03-19-2003, 10:17 AM
Well, we can extrapolate to a degree because in this project, WE are in change.

Anyway, saber throws are going to stay in the game, with some serious modifications. The current saber throw code sucks. Damage is radius based and crap like that.

I figure there's a serious problem with small scale shields that prevent use on living creatures. Maybe the shields cut off the air flow, dangerous to be around, or most likely expensive / heavy.

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-19-2003, 10:30 AM
Kray,

I get what your saying man. Truly - I do. But look up at the title of this thread. It's 'Closer to the films if...'

That's what I've been talking about.

If your aim is to be authentic to the movies, that's one objective.

It your aim is to show what could potentially be done that isn't shown in the movies, but remains 'faithful' to the limits of what the force can do, that's something different...

It depends on what your aims are.

And then gameplay balance on top of that is again another seperate issue...

Kray San Gin
03-19-2003, 10:50 AM
True enough, true enough. . .

I'm not advocating anything that wasn't already shown in the films. Sabre toss was in the film and the manipulation of many other objects was also shown so based on what has been shown, it seems a forgone conclusion that sabre toss fits into the game.

Clearly, as has just been mentioned, though, it needs major refining.

razorace
03-19-2003, 10:54 AM
Yeah, like I said before, it'll mainly be something you'll do when the time is right and not a spamming tool. Having a thrown flight path (mostly) combined with having to retrieve the saber after every throw should make it fairly realistic and fair. If Jedi wanted to throw their weapon all the time they'd have LightDaggers. :)

Kray San Gin
03-19-2003, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by razorace
Yeah, like I said before, it'll mainly be something you'll do when the time is right and not a spamming tool. Having a thrown flight path (mostly) combined with having to retrieve the saber after every throw should make it fairly realistic and fair. If Jedi wanted to throw their weapon all the time they'd have LightDaggers. :)

LightDaggers you say... hmmmmmmmm

(Kray's wheels begin to turn)

Alesh
03-19-2003, 11:11 AM
In the movies objects throw with the force didn't seem to go very fast, notice Vader hit luke with some of these things and it didn't seem to break any bones or anything, Dooku made some rocks fall so I'd guess gravity would work better for damaging somebody.

About armor: Vader wears one, he can stop a heavy blaster (Han Solo's) with his hand, and I think the armor can deflect a lightsaber (if it's not a direct hit of course).

Movie Battles: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/richard.hart4/
Just a warning, It crashes a lot, at least for me. (don't worry razorace, MotF is much better, but this mod has interesting things :P)

razorace
03-19-2003, 11:32 AM
You know. I need to get other MotF team members to post here. I sound like freak talking in the third person all the time. :P

As for the objects, the speed of movement seems to depend on the mass and the Wan-ness of the mover.

The Vader armor issue has been talking to death. Personally I don't think vader's gloves are blaster proof. However, his armor IS Saber resistent. He gets nicked without injury in ESB in the Luke vs. Vader fight.

Thanks, Alesh.

There was a major discussion of possibly merging with MovieBattles but Phunk is too dead set on developing just LMS (Last Man Standing) and removing the ability to play with respawn on. That's ok I guess but I still think it would be prefectly fine as a cvar. Sides, I'm paranoid about my code. I'm worried having other codders would break it. :P

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-19-2003, 12:01 PM
Weheey! Feeling the love...! ;)

Yes Razor, the LMS thing was one of the main things that stood in the way of the merge - I agree. But it wasn't the only thing. If LMS turn out to be literally the ONLY thing we had an option for, I did say I could have probably gone along with it. (Just about...)

But it was gonna be more than that - and you know that too. Our approches are quite different at the end of the day. It would have been near impossible to merge the concepts without many comrpomises - on both sides...

And please let me get one thing clear:
I have never said that the ideas I've had are better than other people's. All I've ever tried to do is explain, clearly and consisely why I'm taking the approach I am.

While we may disagree on, well, actually quite a lot it turns out - I TOTALLY respect the way in which your approching modding. Your thinking things out and your true to what YOU think makes a good game.

Kudos to both of us as far as I'm concerned...

This isn't a compertition guys. Were all modders doing this in our own free time. I'm not doing my mod so people will turn to me and say 'You've made a MUCH better mod than so-and-so'. I'm just trying to make a game that I will enjoy playing, and I hope some other people will too...

Alesh - could you post some more in the Movie Battles thread about the crashing your experiencing - any details about exactly what circumstances etc.
I don't want to be rude and discuss my mod in this forum...

ILR
03-19-2003, 05:11 PM
This thread is long and involved... but I only want to comment (nuterually) on the saber throw at the beginning.

The saber throw in JKII was not an all powerful offensive strike from the jedi gods. In SP if you faught a serious jedi opponent (shadowtrooper, Tavion, or Dessann) then you'd be a damn fool to throw your saber! They would knock it away and charge at your unarmed helpess ass. In MP if you threw your saber it was a givin that it would come back. But in SP you had to work for it a little.. which I think added a little spice to saber throw that made fool hardy to spam with. If that was carried over to MP I would bet that even in servers with saber throw turned on both fighters would think first before spamming it.

Razorace, I think the key to balancing a move like saber throw isn't just in the amount of damage is does. You have to ask questions such as "Does the move make the player vulnerable?", "How physically difficult is it for the player to pull off the move?", "How much warning does the opponent get that this attack is coming?", "How fair of a chance does he have of avoiding it or blocking it?" and so on. Raven didn't really think of these things when they edited the other special moves for the sabers. They simply made them do less damage.

razorace
03-19-2003, 07:41 PM
Seems reasonable to me. :)

Littleman206
03-20-2003, 08:15 AM
Sorry,. I just GOTTA join in, the forces difficulty to use is not dependent on mass, but rather someones belief in it being more difficult due to mass. And its obvious everyone thinks like this, if its bigger, then its heavir. Just look in AOTC, yoda picks up his walkin stick easy as pie but when a giant tower thing is falling, he desnt just snap his fingers and throw it at dooku's ship does he? Also, it takes a hell of a lot of concentration to do anything telekenisis wise with it(the force) other than launch everthing in front of you away from you. Just look, you dont see jedi taking droids guns from their hands turning them arund(the guns) and opening fire, because it's to hard! They need concentration to do something, so they couldn't just fly a saber around as it would simply be to difficult to concentrate on aiming your saber while its in mid flight -and you diving out of the way of balster fire- at your opponents face, jedi maybe really wise but they cant multi task there brain! I say sabre throw goes with razoraces idea of a normal throw, not force guided. Anyways, I've said my piece, so I bid you adue, sorry just wanted to say that.

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-20-2003, 08:43 AM
Anakin managed to smoothly pass whatever fruit that was to Padme in a nice, clean controlled way in AotC. He didn't just launch it at her full-force!
(I don't think flinging something full-pelt at the face of your would-be lover is considered too romantic...)

And didn't look like he was sweating buckets to me!!

I'm not trying to promote the phantom saber thing in gameplay! Far from it - I think it would be an AWFUL idea!!
I'm using it as an example of over-analysing the force in regards to movie realism..

But anyway, I think this topic is being over-cooked now. Just wanted to make sure you understood my viewpoint...

Alesh
03-20-2003, 11:15 AM
But he doesn't do anything "complicated" with the force, and a pear is not very heavy either... anyway I like razorace's idea of saberthrow.

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-20-2003, 11:55 AM
A saber hilt is not heavy!! I'd would rate it at - let's say - Apple-type weight!!

Pick up a banana, hold it like a lightsaber hilt and wave it. How complicated was that? Even monkey's can manage it...

Bah - I'm giving up. Kray may disagree with me about saber throw, but at least he got the point I was trying to make...!

*ceases to bang his head against a brick wall*

Ahh! That's better...!

razorace
03-20-2003, 02:48 PM
I beleive Alesh and Littleman has a point. We've never seen anything other than simple telekenetic powers in the movies. Slow and gentle or straight as an arrow.

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-20-2003, 02:58 PM
Razor,

I know Alesh and Littleman have valid points about the nature of the force. As do you...

But only Kray has given me any credit for the point I'M trying to make - which is that analysing the inner workings of the force doesn't nessesarily help in determining what movie realism is.

Fine - you lot are right. I'll give up trying to convince any of you that this saber phantom thing should be at least theoretically possible.
You've written up your 500-point document which defines what the force can and can't do - by evidence seen from the films, quantum physics and all known eastern philosophies.
By the way, you might want to send that to George. God forbid he might break your laws in the next film...

My point is - that's not nessarily how you determine movie realism!

Just realised I've butted my head against the wall again!!
Damn it!

I'm off to duct-tap my skull back together and find a really strong helmet.
Till then, I really am calling it a day on this...

Alesh
03-20-2003, 04:16 PM
Well i tought MotF was trying to stay true to the movies, and that's what i saw (of course the force doesn't make any sense, it's not like they tought about how it works before using it).

Anyway I won't say you can't mindswing a saber, but i don't think it would be a very strong hit, and probably the only thing you'd get is a hilt cut in half.

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-20-2003, 04:30 PM
Alesh,

I'm not trying to be an arse - honestly I'm not - but you are totally missing my point...

I didn't suggest the phantom saber thing because I thought it was a great gameplay idea. I NEVER want to see that - in my game, in MotF, or in any other game!

I came up with it to show you what I define as movie realism.

To me, movie realism is what is in the movies - full stop.

Even saber throw is too much for me 'movie-realism' wise. It doesn't matter that you can say 'it makes perfect sense - it should be possible'. To me, that's missing the point.

If I'm fighting a Jedi, and that Jedi keeps throwing his saber at me and pulling it back to him mid-flight, I'm thinking 'Hey - I never saw this in the movies!'
Full stop!

Again - and I can't stress this enough - I'm not saying my opinion is right, and yours is wrong. It just seems that no-one is actually getting what my opinion is. I don't give a rat's arse how the force works. I don't think I NEED to if I am to make sure a SW game is realistic to the movies - THAT'S my point!

If your opinion is that's not a valid point, shut up, your obviously not a REAL Star Wars fan - go away, then fine. Just say so. And then I'll give in and leave you guys to carry on mapping out 'The Properties of the Force' encyclopedia...

razorace
03-20-2003, 05:29 PM
Woah buddy, lets lay off the "your obviously not a REAL Star Wars fan" talk. You can still love Star Wars even with a more EU view of the Force.

As for MotF, the mode will have saber throw with a serious retooling. Saber throwing has been seen in the movies but it was used (with poor effect) against an unarmed jedi. If the Chosen One can't hit much with it, I doubt anyone can. The saber throw will probably be for against snipers. Tossing the saber while dodging the shots or something...

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-20-2003, 05:41 PM
Razor,

Do you actually properly read anything I post?
I said that's what you might accuse me of!!

And are you saying that when Vader threw his saber at Luke, he was actually attempting a saber throw, but it went wrong or something? he didn't pull it back? Or he forgot to?

That was ONE instance - as far as I'm concerned, done for dramatic effect and nothing more.
(Personally, I think Vader threw the saber at Luke to point out the emotional termoil he was going through at having to fight his son - but that's just my interpertation...)

To use that as a justification to call saber throwing movie-realistic is a REAL stretch.

Not stretching what the force can do, (I don't wanna go down that road again..), but the idea that was a normal thing a Jedi would do in the first place.

Like you say, the saber is your life. it's a reckless thing to throw it away! And Vader, uber-powerful jedi - didn't have the power or the sense to pull it straight back?!

hang on - I've just realised something! I assume that Vader walks over and picks up the saber off the ground. But of course, you could argue that he pulled it back after a short pause - it was off camera after all...

OK - I'm not going to try and go on about this too much, because the 'evidence' can be interpereted different ways...
But do you accept it's at least possible that might be in the film just for dramatic effect, and NOT an indiciation of normal, average saber combat?

Please - give me a bone!! For the love of Yoda!!

Alesh
03-20-2003, 06:01 PM
I think i'm lost...
What I was saying is from what i've seen in the movies, what seems the force can do, I don't like the saberthrow fights either and i haven't read anything of the EU so i don't know if somebody used it apart from Vader (and i think he did it more to scare Luke or something like rather than really hurt him).

PS: Yes i think it was a dramatic thing rather than a usual combat move (as said it would be pretty suicide).

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-20-2003, 06:08 PM
It's OK Alesh - I think sense got left behind quite a while ago!

i think we should go back to comparing the saber hilt to fruits!

The shape is certainly more like a banana, but I'm reconsidering the weight.

Maybe it's more like a small grapefruit...

I'll do more tests and get back to you...

Alesh
03-20-2003, 08:32 PM
Renegade i think i agree with your previous posts but your responses make me think i'm missing something... :confused:

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-20-2003, 08:37 PM
Sorry :)

I guess sometimes when I think people aren't trying too hard to understand me, instead of knuckling down and trying to explain myself more clearly, I decide to become sarcastic and 'clever'...

And that - in reality - is not actually that 'clever'!
My bad...
Apoligies to all...

My last post was 'meant' to be a joke...

...boom boom.

razorace
03-21-2003, 04:06 PM
If you listen to the RotJ carefully, Vader force pulls his saber back to his hand as he's walking down the stairs. You don't actually see the saber but you see him motion to catch it and reactivate it. It's very subtle.

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-21-2003, 05:58 PM
Razor,

OK. I believe you about that. If I can be bothered, I'll watch the film again at some point, but from what I can remember, I'm sure you can easiely see it that way.
I wouldn't go so far as to say it's conclusive, but it's certainly more than possible.
Even if it is, I could argue that that's not exactly the 'saber throw' I've seen in the game, but that's not the crux of my argument anyway...

If that is enough to convince you that saber throw is 'movie-realistic', then fair enough.

I still don't agree, even if Vader did do what you say in the film. I still think it's not justification enough to have Jedi's potentially throwing and pulling saber's back to them every few seconds...

But, I admit you have a point. It depends where you draw the line...

it would have been nice if you could have at least admitted I may have a point too, but I guess that's too much to ask...

Your correct, it's your mod. You may choose as you like...

Alesh
03-21-2003, 06:33 PM
Renegade i don't think neither me or razorace have said throwing the saber every few seconds is ok, I find it really crappy and nothing like the movies even if we accept saber throw is in them (and it wasn't guided), that's why razorace is redoing saberthrow to make it more limited to certain situations as i understand it.

razorace
03-21-2003, 06:36 PM
What more justification do you need? If it's in the movie, it's in the movie.

Obviously, it'll have to be carefully redone or it'll will be abused. I imagine the fatigue cost, having to recover the saber manually, and teh defenselessness will be enough of a insentive to not spam it.

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-21-2003, 06:46 PM
Yes, very true...

What you've just listed will make it better than normal JKII...

ILR
03-21-2003, 06:58 PM
I want to add a comment towards the original topic of the thread..

I felt that the beginning of the game had a great movie autmosphere. When things queited down you could hear the classic 'beeping' from when obi turned off the Death Star's tractor beam. The ambient music during slow times also matched that mood. When things picked up the music was also very Ep 4ish. Another thing that kept it movie feeling were some of the level aspects. Alot of wall textures resembled Star Destroyer and Death Star textures a TON. And every Imerpial computer console looked EXACTLY like how they did in the movies. But soon after the Kejim base things started to become less like the movies.

I have to give Raven som slack, because they surely can't limit all of their levels to exact SW envirnments. Artus Mine was a entirely unique level, but alot of it reminded me of the trash place in cloud city (on the screen for five seconds...) and a little like the trash room in the Death Star. However, I expected to the detention area to look a bit more like what we saw in the Death Star. I assumed this because the Imperials like to make everything uniform, and exactly like everything else (clones, anyone?), so a similiar cell block design to the death star's probably wouldn't be too far fetched to suggest.

Few problems with enemies during the beginning... those brown dudes with the yellow blasters. Uh... who are these guys? I've never seen or heard of them before JO. And we never got to see the stormtrooper gatling gun. I'd rather have that than Raven's repeater gun/shotgun. The crossbow also behaved in a way that was surprising to me. I never played the first JK, so I'm fresh from the theaters.. and quite honestly the crossbow bieng a slow moving non deflectable fat blob of green blaster really took something to get used to.

Since most of my complaints in the last paragraph didn't really happen until later, I think the beginning of the game was the ideal movie to game experience. Kejim base was damn good as far as the SW feel goes.

ILR
03-21-2003, 07:06 PM
Originally posted by razorace
What more justification do you need? If it's in the movie, it's in the movie.

Obviously, it'll have to be carefully redone or it'll will be abused. I imagine the fatigue cost, having to recover the saber manually, and teh defenselessness will be enough of a insentive to not spam it.

hmm.. fatigue cost? Watch out now.. while I do like RPG's, I like straight forward action games too. I believe giving the player the inconvenience of having to pull it back on his own, taking more time and attention from battle, will be enough to deter spamming. And when it comes to moves like saber throw, simply detering abuse of the move is all that's really needed.

edit- or did I read that wrong, and you just mean mental fatigue to the player? I don't think adding stats to the game is a good idea. The force stats are RPG enough for this action game.

Alesh
03-21-2003, 09:08 PM
Fatigue will be the name for the points force powers, dodge and other things will spend when the mod is in a more advanced stage, instead of having dodge points and force points as it is now.

razorace
03-21-2003, 09:29 PM
Not entirely true. Dodge and Fatigue will still exist as seperate meters. Fatigue is a measure of battle fatigue instead of just force powers. Fatigue is much larger than the current Force meter than Force Powers will also cost more.

razorace
03-21-2003, 10:18 PM
Dodge needs to be seperate so it will be possible to kill someone other than just wearing down their Fatigue.

Alesh
03-21-2003, 11:31 PM
Have you changed this or did i misunderstand you when you explained it? Anyway seems fine to me, not everybody dies tired :P

razorace
03-22-2003, 02:40 AM
No change. The whole Dodge/Fatigue concept has been around since the beginning. I just haven't mentioned it in a while. Been too busy working on smaller design projects.

ILR
03-23-2003, 06:33 PM
Hmm... while I'm a little on the fence about the fatigue thing, I do have a suggestion that will make that addone less of a stat thing and more to do with the physical gameplay. With JKIIMP, I never liked how the players had ultimate Robotron abilities. What I mean is.. they can go from rest to sprint in an instant, as well as suddenly sprint in an entirely different direction. It sounds like the fatigue thing is staying in your mod.. so perhaps you can make it so fatigue is used when running back and forth in zany directions that are too impossible for the human body. Just a suggestion, but I think it'll be a good incentive to get players to slow down in duels, and not be so berserker with their sabers.

razorace
03-23-2003, 08:31 PM
*shrug* Momentum stuff is hard to do without making player feel unresponsive. I'll look into it thou.

ILR
03-23-2003, 10:44 PM
Originally posted by razorace
*shrug* Momentum stuff is hard to do without making player feel unresponsive. I'll look into it thou.

yeah, the thought occured to me that it would sooner frusterate the player than add hightened excitment through realism. But think of it this way.... when standing still (yourself, in real life) you can jet off in a givin direction much like the animations in the game. But stopping and jetting off in the opposite direction is a little harder. If you can manage a system that allows a player to jet from standing, but have slower responses when changing directions... then the player would still be able to get the responsiveness gameplay--when stepping smart--as well as realism of momentum issues.

I can imagine that'll be difficult to code... and even more so to shove over the internet in an MP game. I think even a simplified verson would be of value, because the opponent the player faces has the same handicap, right? It's like an equation, what you do to one side you do to the other, as long as the sides are equal you can do whatever you want to acheive the right numbers. (In this case, its movie realism. And for that, we simply need to slow things down. JKIIMP is insanely fast.)

razorace
03-23-2003, 11:42 PM
I'll try messing with it at some point. Unless you're going full tilt in real life, you can stop on a dime. This could be used as an additional encouragement to not run all time.