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View Full Version : Swing speed & damage changed by scaling?


Marker0077
03-21-2003, 02:02 AM
From Lee Oattes, Duelers Coder
main change is to implement a totally new scaling system for damage and speed. The idea came from discussion about making damage scale more rapidly than model scale as players got smaller. That rattled around in my head and I went crazy.

The short description is that models change their ability to damage and their relative speed according to an s-curve based on the
character scale. This means that small models move fast and hit light whereas large models move slow and hit hard. You can play the speedy mosquito yoda or the lumbering death machine desann.... LOL.IT ONLY TAKES A SECOND TO VOTE, please vote on this.

I for one totally hate this idea. The main reason why I do not play on Vulcanus Admin Mod servers is because of the host having the ability to change the swinging speed. You get into a certain rythm of things & this totally messes it up & I think ANY NF dueler will tell you the same thing; And I don't mean an FF player that sometimes plays NF, I mean a real NF dueler like the top ranking players on the DarkSide servers or people that usually play on DS & DS alike servers.
I also fail to see how this feature is realistic in any way, shape, or form. If anything should be changed with scaled models it should be the running speed considering smaller scaled models can't take as big of steps as large models can & large models can take large steps.

Smaller scaled models have 2 advantages that standard scaled models do not have:
#1) Smaller scaled models attack on the lower region of the larger scaled model where there is not nearly as much defense.
It's like being able to constantly crouch while fighting (except you never slow down) & as everyone probably knows, crouching & attacking is a very good move to use at the right time.

#2) Since the smaller scaled model is only half the size, it only has half the area you can hit.

Now sabers are already sized differently for scaled models, so that creates 1 disadvantage for smaller scaled models, however, smaller scaled models have 2 advantages, not 1. I think changing the speed according to the scale would even things out nicely.

Now do not get me wrong, I'm not saying this new feature is a bad idea alltogether, I just don't think it's something that should be based by the scaling. Just because you are big that doesn't mean you are slow & vice versa. Besides, you go to use your favorite character & your swings get messed up - lame.

We want to hear what everyone thinks about this, after all, with all the things I have in store for the community with the release of Duelers 1.2 Full, I think Duelers may become the #1 mod in the JK2 community, but only time will tell. I can't wait to release Full so I can finally put the mod where my mouth is & has been ;). Tell me what you think people, I appreciate your time.

This thread on...
JK2Files.com Forums (http://www.gamingforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=66666)
JediKnightII.net Forums (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=95223)
DarkSide Forums (http://forums.darkstats.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3403)

razorace
03-21-2003, 10:16 PM
The problem is that the model animations were never designed with modelscaling in mind. It's very difficult to aim for and hit a smaller target (with the saber at least)

Marker0077
03-22-2003, 02:30 AM
Originally posted by razorace
The problem is that the model animations were never designed with modelscaling in mind. It's very difficult to aim for and hit a smaller target (with the saber at least) It's no different then when trying to hit a crouching target in normal JK2, just aim down or crouch & aim down.

I can't believe there are people out there that actually like the idea of it going with scaling. The game already is setup this way with the blue, yellow, & red stances. I don't see the point in this feature.

razorace
03-22-2003, 02:44 AM
I don't know. Simply making the player have less health seems good enough to me. Changing the swing speeds would screw up a smaller player's chance of saber fighting well.

Marker0077
03-22-2003, 06:54 AM
Originally posted by razorace
I don't know. Simply making the player have less health seems good enough to me. Changing the swing speeds would screw up a smaller player's chance of saber fighting well. That's what I'm saying, I don't think it's something that should be based by the scaling, but you wouldn't change the smaller scaled users health, they already have a smaller scaled lightsaber & vice versa for larger scaled models.

razorace
03-22-2003, 02:41 PM
The problem is that the saber system wasn't designed for shorter/larger players. More and more, I'm discovering that the saber system needs a serious overhaul.

Marker0077
03-22-2003, 07:34 PM
Originally posted by razorace
The problem is that the saber system wasn't designed for shorter/larger players. More and more, I'm discovering that the saber system needs a serious overhaul. I'm not sure what you mean. The scaling of the saber is reduce or enlargened by the scaling of the player model, & with this cvar, the speed/strength is too, what needs to be designed? What would this "overhaul" provide that the current code does not?

razorace
03-22-2003, 09:59 PM
Realistic blade deflection angles, more realistic control system/moves, and, most critical, have the blades actually have touch collisions instead of the crappy bounding box crap that's in basejk2.

I've already implimented that last part but I am still working on it. There's a problem with the ghoul2 models server/client side desyncing but I'm sure it's something I can fix.

Demos of the Prototype (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=94991)
Ghoul2 Blade Collision discussion (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=95096[/url)


Razor Ace

Marker0077
03-24-2003, 05:07 AM
The actual code is not my area of expertise, that's Lees department, so I can't really say one way about it or another, but I have emailed him a link to this thread so he should look it over then either he or I will get back to you. Thanks for the feedback.

razorace
03-24-2003, 07:46 PM
Sorry, that wasn't a offer of helping you. That was just a demenstration of what's possible and what MotF is working on. I have no interest in working on any JM code based mod or any other mod than MotF. I am willing to work on general gameplay improvement projects thou.

No offence to JM but it's just a bunch of pretty stuff slapped onto the standard gameplay of JK2. Not that it isn't cool. It's just not the sort of game I want JO to be. :)

Marker0077
03-28-2003, 11:19 AM
First of all, I wasn't under the impression you were offering your services, I don't know what gave you that idea. I thought you were asking a question so I needed some time to work on a response.

Secondly, I wouldn't prejudge Duelers just because it's JM based.

Thirdly, here's the answer to your question.Originally emailed by Lee Oattes (Duelers Coder, Head Game Designer, & Basic Project Creator) to Marker0077 (Game Designer & Full Project Creator)
He is partially right about the saber collision code. But, raven tried the ghoul2 collision code and you will find it in the source -- in fact you can enable most of it with the g_ghoul2collision cvar. BUT -- they went back to the bounding box code for the final release -- obviously they felt that the ghoul stuff did not work as well as they wanted. (I think the problem is prediction on the client).

I am sure he knows this. He has been working on improving this part of the code. No doubt it can be improved! There are large parts of the code that are pretty silly and obviously hacked! This is particularly true of all of the saber code ;-) -- not just the collision code. Work has picked up for Lee so he doesn't have the time he used to to work on Duelers. He still plans on working on it in the future with the spare time that he has.

You never know, there may be parts of Duelers that you may feel should be added into MotF. Who knows what the future might bring, but for now, I need to concentrate on getting Duelers Full out the door & I am sure you have your projects as well.

razorace
03-28-2003, 11:53 AM
We'll see. You guys do seem to have some good ideas. MotF just have different priorities. :)

Anyway, I know all that he mentioned. I don't think that Raven even thought of my method of doing it.. After talking to Rich, the ghoul2 programmer, I got the impression that he thought it wouldn't work. Well, it works and it works good. I found a general problem with the server side animation system that is the reason for the body saber passthrus and why spins never seem to be hit anything. I'm working on the fix now.