JKII and movie-realism

[RenegadeOfPhunk]

Wehey! A whole thread dedicated to the discussion of movie realism!

...let battle commence! lol


Anyway, to carry on from where the discussion was heading in the 'catching-lightning' thread...

Deadly Geezer,

I see exactly what your saying. Anger and Rage are a basic part of a Dark Jedi's fighting energy. I'm not trying to deny that. I am ONLY trying to debate that Rage AS IMPLEMENTED in MP is perhaps not a great way to represent that anger...

To illistrate my point, can you point out to me exactly when in that Ep.I duel - at which points Darth Maul didn't have Rage activated, and then suddenly did? Surely you would agree Darth Maul is equally full of anger throughout the whole thing? i.e. It's a basic Dark Jedi trait if you will - NOT nessearily a force power you activate. That's my point....


Razor,

When I was glad you actually gave me some credit, it was this comment I was refering to:

I'm just pointing out that Rage and Saber Throw has some movie basis. They've obviously aren't very faithful to the movies.

This is my entire point - their not currently faithful to the movies, and I was just pointing out that was decent of you to say that...

...I won't bother next time!

When you involved in a debate, clearly stating where you AGREE is just as important as specifically pointing out where you DISAGREE. This DOESN'T mean your caving in and admitting their right! Far from it... it's just clearer for all concerned and it's also the decent way to work through a discussion.
I most respect the debaters on these forums who do this - and there are a few. (Prime and Kray are a couple of names which immediately spring to mind. They've disagreed with me, but they've acknowledged they understand the points I'm trying to make..)

But anyway...

I think we may actually agree more on this topic than we may seem to. I've taken the approcah of just removing those force powers that - as you say - aren't faithful to the movies - in their current form.
But your absolutely right too. Instead of just removing them, I could have also adjusted them to make them more faithful to the movies. This is your approach that you prefer, and I actually do agree with you - that's a perfectly legitemate approach...

I think it's worth explaining that I actually have other resons for wanting to remove force powers OTHER than for movie realism purposes. I feel that the basic MP game is almost over-saturated with force powers.
I think it makes this game harder for some gamers to get into. To get into it properly, they have to remember a plethra of control keys etc. etc.
And also, as BloodRiot mentioned, reducing the force power set has the effect of focusing Jedi combat more upon Saber combat - which I think is also a good thing too...

This is just to explain that, while I think either removal OR tweaking are both legitemate avenues to achieve better movie-realism, there are also other reasons why I have chosen the removal path...

[shock ~ unnamed]

JK/DF video games are not the movies.

Never have been.

Never will be.

George Lucas sent me an e-mail and he stated in JK3 all the Jedi will carry shotguns.

[Tosh_UK]

JK/DF video games are not the movies.
agree :)





George Lucas sent me an e-mail and he stated in JK3 all the Jedi will carry shotguns.

LMFAO

[RenegadeOfPhunk]

JK/DF video games are not the movies.

Good observational skills you've just demonstrated there.

I'm sure you next posts of 'computer games aren't paintings' and 'computer games aren't sculptures' will be just as impressive.

I am currently working on proving - once and for all - that computer games are NOT, I repeat NOT - Birthday Cards!! Shocking, I know, but I believe this is true!
Just give me a bit more time to double-check my figures, and I'll get back to you... :rolleyes:

btw - I just got a letter from George too. It said:

'I just told shock ~ unnamed that shotguns are going into JK3 -and he totally bought it!!
Haha - am I a joker or what?!'


This thread is for discussion about how the JKII games 'could' be more realistic to the movies if that's what your into

If your not interested in that, then fair enough, but you need not reply...

Disclaimer: I am NOT an RPG'er!

[Deadly Geezer]

Renegade: I see what you mean now. You're absolutely right.

Originally posted by shock ~ unnamed
George Lucas sent me an e-mail and he stated in JK3 all the Jedi will carry shotguns.

You got that email too?

[Solo4114]

Ok, to make the games more realistic, you might keep the existing weapons (except maybe the heavy repeater), but alter the ways in which they fire and maybe alter their models. The Flechette Cannon's primary fire is fine, I suppose, but the secondary fire just doesn't fit. I'd also add more blaster-style weapons, but have them vary in rates of fire, damage, size of projectile, etc. Allow for stun settings on the E-11 as well.

Outside of that, a complete and total overhaul of the sabre combat system and much of the force system.

[RenegadeOfPhunk]

Deadly Geezer,

Thx man :)
Sorry 'bout the heavy handed reply, I was just expecting to have to fight off a barrage of flame...
Yeah, George always keeps me in the loop... ;)

Solo4114,

Sounds like we probably have similar viewpoints. Could you expand on your ideas for complete saber combat and force powers rehaul?

[Solo4114]

Well, what ProMod did was a good start. I'd give players access to all sabre stances from the start of the game, but have them assign power to offense or defense, which would control how well you used the sabre (IE: how likely you'd be to break through an enemy's defenses, how well you could maintain your own defenses). Or, you could let them assign points to each stance, and have offense and defense merge for each stance. So you'd be really good at Blue stance, so-so at yellow, and awful at Red, or some other variation. And I'd make ALL sabre attacks equally lethal. It'd just be a question of when to use each attack and how likely that attack is to break through defenses. No move would be unblockable, but some moves would be more blockable than others. Finally, I'd make sabres able to damage health only and not be affected by shields.

As far as force powers go, I'd remove kick altogether, which would eliminate the ability to run on walls (if you want the Matrix, make a Matrix mod). Get rid of drain/heal (the two powers compliment each other), protect, and rage, maybe ditch throw, I'm not sure. I think Vader did use it on the 2nd Death Star against Luke. Alternatively, you could bring in the ability to toss objects around at people and have THAT be throw (IE: the old throw power in JK1). I'd leave absorb in. I think Obi-Wan and Yoda demonstrated it in EpII. I'd leave grip and lightning in as they are. I'd change force seeing to a passive, always-on power like force "sense" or something -- the ability to dodge innately, to sense an enemy's presence, block shots, etc. This would kind of limit the number of force powers, though, so you might want to include new sabre stances or specialty schools of sabre fighting (IE: two-weapon fighting, double-sided weapon fighting, Dooku style fighting, etc.). These stances could only be picked at the expense of picking anything above level one of the basic three stances and they'd be considerably more expensive than the usual sabre stances. If you wanted to master them, you'd basically have to forego the ability to use the other forms.

Those are some of the changes I'd make if I had the know-how.

[RenegadeOfPhunk]

Solo4114,

All good points and ideas. I'll have a think about them...

But just one thing, I can see where Yoda uses an Absorb-type power, but when did OB1? Do you mean when he stuck his saber out to catch the lightning attack?

[Solo4114]

Yeah, that's what I was talking about. It's not like Yoda's absorbtion, but it's the same concept, it seems. How the hell else would a lightsabre blade block arcs of lightning? :)

[RenegadeOfPhunk]

I've got no idea - it's a film!

Doesn't nessesarily have to be a reasonable explanation - this is fantasy were talking about.
It's certainly what SEEMS to be happenning on screen to me - unless anybody knows any different...

[Haemon]

Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
Wehey! A whole thread dedicated to the discussion of movie realism!

Movie realism? Isn't that an oxymoron? Most fight scenes are highly unrealistic in movies.

[master_thomas]

originally posted by Haemon
Movie realism? Isn't that an oxymoron? Most fight scenes are highly unrealistic in movies.

True, but "realism" as in Starwars' reality.




originally posted by solo4114
also add more blaster-style weapons, but have them vary in rates of fire, damage, size of projectile, etc. Allow for stun settings on the E-11 as well.

Totally agree with you solo. JK2 has too many splash damage weapons.

What good would a stun setting do? Would it be secondary fire in which they lie on the floor and you can shoot them while they don't move for five seconds?

[RenegadeOfPhunk]

as master_thomas said...

Fantasy - by definition - is not 'real'

That's why I use the term 'Movie-realism' rather than 'REAL'...

[razorace]

Originally posted by Solo4114

Those are some of the changes I'd make if I had the know-how.
Dude, that's like mostly describing MotF to the T. :P

[razorace]

BTW, Phunk, it helps to actually tell people that you're replying them in another thread. :)

One thing that needs to be noted is that the saber system needs a serious to total rewrite. It's fine if you like mashing buttons but it isn't very "realistic" or involving.

[ryudom]

*skips lotsa posts*

one thing i'd like is locational damage- mmm locational damage. i just loooove headshots heh

[razorace]

Locational Damage requires a better hit detection system for it to feel right. I've got the Ghoul2 Hit Detection up and working (with a couple of minor errors). I haven't done Locational Damage yet thou. i think it's in Omnimod thou.

[Aoshi]

well... with a sword made of light i think any hit = you out of the fight for good. somewhere between the searing pain of losing a limb and the burning of the wound being instantly cauterized in addition to major overloading of the nervous system and going into shock i think your opponent would have ample time to finish you off.

[razorace]

Uh, just because it's called a "light"saber doesn't mean the blade is made out of light. :)

[RenegadeOfPhunk]

Originally posted by razorace
BTW, Phunk, it helps to actually tell people that you're replying them in another thread. :)

I did tell you ;)
(Check the last post in the catching lightning thread...)

[shock ~ unnamed]

Originally posted by Aoshi
well... with a sword made of light i think any hit = you out of the fight for good. somewhere between the searing pain of losing a limb and the burning of the wound being instantly cauterized in addition to major overloading of the nervous system and going into shock i think your opponent would have ample time to finish you off.

Yep, exactly.

Everyone wants "movie like" fights, well let's look at them.

Every single time the blade/whatever you want to call it came into contact with skin the person hit went down for the count.

Either they died or they were in too much pain to even stand.

Look at the last movie, he gets nicked in the leg and he drops like a sack of bricks.


Implementing that into a game would result in either one of two things.

1-Very, VERY fast fights (3-6 seconds).

2-You will have to make the blocking system so ridiculously high/automated that literally 99.99999% of all swings are blocked just to make the fight last longer than 6 seconds.


I really don't see either of those being popular with the majority of players.

Just take the saber animations you now have, crank up the damage, say 4x and reduce the auto blocking a little.

Toss in maybe a few new stances and swings and you have e very "playable" saber system for all game types.

[RenegadeOfPhunk]

I agree Shock,

I think how lethal a lightsaber swing is shouldn't just be determined by just 'movie-realism' - gameplay also has to be taken into account.

So I'm not convinced any touch with a lightsaber should kill you or incapactate you either, even though this would indeed be more real to the movies. This is a case where 'movie-realism' has to be balanced with gameplay.

There was the one case where Luke caught Vader on the arm in Ep.V, but I guess vader was wearing armour...

[Solo4114]

Actually, Shock, there's a third alternative that you didn't bring up. Which is that people would become MUCH more cautious, so fights would take longer. You'd have a few fast and furious sporadic attacks, followed by periods of trying to guage when to attack your opponent, with what swing/stance, etc. I think that you could still have sabres be able to kill in, say, 2-3 hits, though that's not all that different from the current system. If you could do locational damage, I'd say that extremities like arms and legs should give take three hits to kill, and body/head shots would take 1-2 hits.

I think that with a decent blocking system (there would be some autoblocking, but it would scale, under my revised sabre system, to your skill level with that particular stance, and would depend on what stance you're using and what stance your attacker is using) could help with the really lethal sabres. I used to play Bushido Blade 2 on the PS1 and that was a game where you could have fights that'd last for a few minutes, mostly because the players were positioning themselves, feinting, etc. The swords, however, were basically lethal. If you hit the body, it'd take one good clean hit or two glancing hits and the enemy'd be dead. If you hit the arm, however, it'd disable the arm. I'm not saying this is exactly what we should aspire towards in JK2 and the future, but it's an example of a system with lethal weapons that really works.

At the very least, though, whatever lethality setting you pick (and this could be a server variable), it should be constant for all stances. Just because I swing really hard or swing really fast should not change the amount of damage that the swing does. It SHOULD change whether I batter through defenses or sneak around them, or whether I can defend quickly, or have such strong defenses that you can't break through.

[razorace]

Well, from experimentation, I know 100% lethal sabers without a counter doesn't work. You simply get hit too often since the current system doesn't make an effort to prevent the saber blade/player model from sinking into something without reason. We can probably fix a lot of that but I'm not sure it'll ever be perfect in JK2.

Saber damage isn't constant in the movies. The velocity/heft of the swing seems to determine its ability to cut. It's basically a blade with no mass is a very, very high "sharp". It's not perfect thou since otherwise you'd be able to cut thru anything without effort.

[Solo4114]

I'd still think that, for gameplay and realism balancing, if you did three hits on arms/legs and two hits on body/head with ANY stance, you'd be in good shape. If you simply have sabre abilities determined on a per-stance basis and have THAT determine how well you attack and defend in each stance, then people could choose to specialize or be a jack of all trades, but master of none. Then it'd simply be a question of who's got the better Offense/Defense ratio at a given moment, which would depend on your ability in that stance, and which stance was being used against it (and maybe which move -- certain moves could have higher attack ratings, other moves could have lower ones, but be better for parrying and counter-attacking).

[razorace]

Well, to be more realistic, it makes more sense to have your basic saber skills and your stance skills seperate to a degree. It's not really possible to be a god at one stance and totally fall over your saber in another. Your overall skills improve with the more you practice with the saber.

[Solo4114]

Right, but that's why I say give everyone access to all stances in a basic sense (unless you pick the "specialty" stances), but have people be able to specialize in them and develop proficiency in that school of fighting. I think we should think less of the stances as just stances, and more like, say, kung fu styles. So, for example, you could be really good at blue stance/praying mantis style, and only so-so at yellow stance/drunken monkey boxing, and halfway decent at red stance/southern shaolin. We can figure that your sifu taught you all three, but you chose to focus on some more than others.

[Aoshi]

well... the actual point of me posting this here was to promote a 1-2 hit kill system. then the saber would be useful in ALL gametypes not only duel. as of right now the saber is only useful in ctf and ffa as a shield. upper level ff duelists hardly even swing the saber and the only place the saber is actually used as a weapon is in nf duels and that's only because they absolutely have to. if the saber did say a 1 hit kill then gunners and saberists would be equalized, flag returners in ctf could mindtrick and kill the carrier easily if he's standing still, saber only ctf wouldnt be so goddamn boring waiting 30 minutes for the friggin flag to return, and full force dueling would be more about using the saber then draining and grip-kicking.

[razorace]

I agree but I personally think the saber damage should be based on velocity and the amount of impact instead of something like touch->die.

[Aoshi]

velocity really has nothing to do with a sword's ability to kill other than it connecting(provided the blade is extremely sharp and the surface area/density of contact point is sufficiently low that is to say you're trying to stab someone and not cut them). as long as the blade is sharp enough casually moving the saber towards someone will kill them and if lightsabers are sharp enough to cut through metal doors then they're sharp enough to run through a human with little velocity behind the impact.

now of course if we were talking about real life swords then velocity would have to be considered because then the swords would never be that sharp. however if i wanted to create a fantasy sword that was say 1 titanium atom thick at the edges then it would easily displace the skin and would pierce a human body with no resistance. therefore if such a thing as a sword made of energy existed, because energy has no mass, no surface area, and no weight theoretically it would displace any type of matter and thus cut through anything with no effort.

[razorace]

Uh, if that is true, Dooku would have cut clean thru Obi-Wan when he lightly touched him with blade.

Velocity does matter, just in a different way than from normal blades. It's a massless blade (or at least close to that) and "burns" thru basically anything, but it still has resistance then it hits something.

[Kurgan]

If JK2 had movie realism:

There would be no first person viewpoint.

There would only be three saber duels per game.

Nobody who died would come back, except as a ghost.

Main characters never die until the very end.

All Jedi wear desert robes or leather or black tunics.

Players would spend most of their time walking around and talking or flying in their ships.

During battles the camera would cut away at the worst possible times to switch to some other battle.

On the upside... lots of hands would get cut off. ; )

[razorace]

hehe. That's a bit far, that's like saying that CS is unrealistic cause there's no negoseations before the fighting. :)

[RenegadeOfPhunk]

Yeah. Can't help but think your missing the point...

The idea is to make it movie-realistic where appropiate, but obviously don't take it over the top - to the point where your just staging an online play! lol

[razorace]

Oh, I know. I was just giving him crap. :)

[RenegadeOfPhunk]

Sorry Razor, didn' t make myself clear...

I was replying to Kurgan - not you :)
I totally agree. A game like CS is a good example.

[Kurgan]

Lol.

I just think that Star Wars game realism is an oxymoron.

Sure, I like it to "feel" like the movies, but I also like it to be fun and balanced, and if I have to choose between the former and the latter, I'll take the latter.

[RenegadeOfPhunk]

I'm interested as to why you think this is such a hard concept to achieve? Why is it only 'movie-realism' OR fun & balanced - one or the other - full stop?!

As far as I'm concerned, all it takes is some careful thought and planning to achieve both. The actual coding nessesary, for a lot of these things, is actually fairly trivial.

I am truly perplexed as to why a lot of people see this as some kind of 'mission impossible'?

Of course, if you take it too far - you obviously get some of the ridiculous stuff you mentioned earlier. But of course, the trick is not to take it too far - only as far as you can while retaining good, balanced and fun gameplay, like you say...