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Heavyarms
03-31-2003, 03:10 PM
I think they are a hideous menace that the enemy uses. Used first by the Palestinians, and perfected by Al-Qaeda, sadly. It's so sad to see people thinking that they can go to heaven if they kill someone that opposes them while taking their own life. I know one thing from judaism: you can't be buride in a cemetery if you kill yourself, suicide is so badly looked upon. But maybe my philosophy on afterlife is true: it is whatever you think of it, IE the greeks found what they believed, christians believe in purgatory, we believe in heaven, etc, but I hope he punishes these monsters.

Zygomaticus
03-31-2003, 04:51 PM
Personally, I see this just as bad as using some big cruise missle and bombing the hell out of the enemy. They're both strategies. If we want to bomb the hell out of enemies from hundreds of miles away, the best, most ingeneous thing they can do is what they're doing right now.

If people want "fair" warfare, they should either charge each other with bayonets and spears or take part in WWII-style ground warfare, which may never happen because the level of advancement that has taken place in the world and between the USA and Iraq are quite different.

Dagobahn Eagle
03-31-2003, 08:23 PM
Also, the differences in number of forces betwen the USA and Iraq are so different that the war can't be "fair".

Is this a discussion about suicide bombers in Iraq, or in general?

It's sad, yes. But hey, we're at war. I can't answer the question on wheter or not the Iraqis should use suicide bombers. If I had to, I'd answer yes, but only as a part of "what I want them to do is totally surrender".

Zygomaticus
03-31-2003, 08:44 PM
They're basically sacrificing themselves for the good of their side. Americans get Medals of Honor for doing things like that. But the fact that it is usually done with deceit gets on my bad side...

Dagobahn Eagle
03-31-2003, 10:21 PM
Yes, an American get a Purple Heart if he's wounded, and we pervertedly hold dying for your country in high regard too (most countries do).

Problems with Palestinian suicide bombers is that while they fight for a perfectly good cause, both them and the Israelis are taking the battle to civilians.

IMO, the Israeli army/govt. is far worse than the Palestinian one. I mean, a govermnent massacring innocent civilians? Kind off like some survivor of Columbine gunning up a gun store because he couldn't get his hands on the original killers :rolleyes:

Give 1/2 of Israel to Palestinians, and divide Jerusalem in two. It's the only way there can be peace there. If Israel stay with 99% of the territory, the Palestinians have no reason to tolerate that: They've stayed there for 2000 years, for my God's sake.

I don't know a single American who don't refer to America as their land, and they have only lived there for less than 300 years (very few are descendants of the first colonists). Then imagine the Palestinians, living in a country for 2000 years and then having it taken away?

I mean, if the Indians suddenly went to war, backed by, say, the Chinese, and all Americans were thrown out of their homes into refugee camps in Alaska, how would you feel? Seeing Americans can't even tolerate pics of cops beating people up without rioting, it's strange how you can expect someone else to put up with your whole country being taken away.

Yet, this is exactly what you did to the Palestinians. The Israelis broke out of their tiny new settlement areas and went to war on the Palestinians, and the USA didn't do a thing to stop it. Yes, Israelis should have their own country, but so should the Palestinians. Who are you going to turn into refugee camps in 2000 years for them to have a home? The Danish?

And you say France never stands up for democracy.. Geez. You let this whole **** in Israel start without doing anything...

Zygomaticus
03-31-2003, 10:40 PM
I was talking about the suicide tactics that Iraqi soldiers were using against American soldiers in Iraq.

I have no comment against Palestinian suicide bombers...

Heavyarms
03-31-2003, 10:43 PM
Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle
Yes, an American get a Purple Heart if he's wounded, and we pervertedly hold dying for your country in high regard too (most countries do).

Problems with Palestinian suicide bombers is that while they fight for a perfectly good cause, both them and the Israelis are taking the battle to civilians.

IMO, the Israeli army/govt. is far worse than the Palestinian one. I mean, a govermnent massacring innocent civilians? Kind off like some survivor of Columbine gunning up a gun store because he couldn't get his hands on the original killers :rolleyes:

Give 1/2 of Israel to Palestinians, and divide Jerusalem in two. It's the [b]only way there can be peace there. If Israel stay with 99% of the territory, the Palestinians have no reason to tolerate that: They've stayed there for 2000 years, for my God's sake.

I don't know a single American who don't refer to America as their land, and they have only lived there for less than 300 years (very few are descendants of the first colonists). Then imagine the Palestinians, living in a country for 2000 years and then having it taken away?



I kinda wanted to talk about suicide bomber,s but since you think the palestinians are such a good people, I'm going to counter this, because they aren't, and i'll show you why.

1. I still don't see how sacrificing yourself to kill others is at all noble, which you don't condemn because you see as the way for them to get their attention, It's still so disgusting and sick. A new science was invented from the shockwaves and what happens to the organs. pretty sick, huh? "It is worse to die for a cause than to live humbly for one."- Catcher in the Rye

2.they were there for 2000 years, but who was there first?

3. I don't know of any other Jewish place besides that one. The whole damned place has arabs anyways.

4. The government is not walking out there to kill civilians. Do you not realize that they use some of the underhanded tactics the Iraqi's do, such as hide in civilian homes? I know they haven't done some great things, but most nations aren't perfect(no elaboration on those nations).

5. They'd divide the land if they'd know they'd be happy. But that wouldn't happen. They want them gone for good. They have tried, and all arab nations have numerous times, to eliminate israel from the map, and don't recognize it.

Believe what you want, but I believe Israel, my Jewish state, is a nation where peace is in mind, but terrorists make it hard to attain.

ShadowTemplar
04-01-2003, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle
IMO, the Israeli army/govt. is far worse than the Palestinian one. I mean, a govermnent massacring innocent civilians? Kind off like some survivor of Columbine gunning up a gun store because he couldn't get his hands on the original killers :rolleyes:

Ha! Now you're being delusionary. The only difference between Sharon and he PA is that Sharon has tanks and choppers. If the situation was reversed Arafat would act just as childishly.

Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle
Give 1/2 of Israel to Palestinians, and divide Jerusalem in two. It's the only way there can be peace there.

Bah. They are fighting a war of faith. There won't be peace down there until every last one of them is dead. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle
They've stayed there for 2000 years, for my God's sake.

I wish that people would stop looking at who held what a lot of centuries ago. After all Norway was Danish until 1814 and Swedish until the beginning of the 20th century. Just draw a line in the sand at some point, and call it a day. I'd say that the borders before the six-day war should be that line in the sand. You'll never find out who owns what rightfully in the Middle East: It's changed hands too many times.

OK, having bashed a Pro-Palestinian, I'll proceed straight to the Pro-Israeli:

2.they were there for 2000 years, but who was there first?

Israel... Riiight you are... WRONG: The Babylonians were there first. But does that mean that we should resurrect the Babylonian Empire. Methinks not. FFS you're going back to some random place in history in order to justify your claim. Obviously it doesn't work.

3. I don't know of any other Jewish place besides that one.

After a nation has had no state for several millenia, it has no claims to be a nation. Because the only way it can keep being a nation is by being an antisocial society-in-the-society. When you come to a new society, you assimilate. What you don't do is keep up your silly, old custums. That's a surefire way to become unpopular. And don't try to invoke the infameous "European bad concience". I didn't fething exist when Hitler and the Nazis killed Jews. So don't even think about it. I don't owe Judeaism anything. Infact one could rightfully argue that it's the other way about: Judeaism spawned Christianity and Islam, both of which have caused untold loads of trouble in Europe.

The whole damned place has arabs anyways.

/racism

4. The government is not walking out there to kill civilians. Do you not realize that they use some of the underhanded tactics the Iraqi's do, such as hide in civilian homes? I know they haven't done some great things, but most nations aren't perfect(no elaboration on those nations).

Hmm. They aren't worse than the IRA. Yet Israel has killed far fething more Palestinians than the British have killed Catholics in Northern Ireland, methinks. And there's only been a problem for half as long, or something like that. Not going for the civs you say? Well, they certainly aren't protecting them either.

5. They'd divide the land if they'd know they'd be happy. But that wouldn't happen. They want them gone for good. They have tried, and all arab nations have numerous times, to eliminate israel from the map, and don't recognize it.

Like I said above: The two factions are equally childish. The Palestinians say the exact same thing. And because both sides know that they will be persecuted if they lay down their arms, neither dares, and so both can use that lame excuse.

And don't drag the other Arab states into this: Last time I checked Israel still illegally occiupied the Golan heigths, in order to control the River Jordan. So there might be a reason why the Arab world is pissed off.

Besides I don't know of any Arabian offensive into Israel, but plenty that have gone the other way (although this might be due to biassed news media). And do you mind me telling you that Israel is the Goliath, not the David. With all the shiny, American merchandise it has for waging war, it's been grabbing Arabian lands ever since its inception.

Believe what you want, but I believe Israel, my Jewish state, is a nation where peace is in mind, but terrorists make it hard to attain.

Ha! You have settlers who say, quote-unquote "I don't care if he [an Arab] has a legal claim to this land, God gave it to us." So much for wanting peace!

Israel needs to kick some Jewish-fundamentalistic butt, and the PA needs to kick some Muslim-fundamentalistic butt before I'll start taking either of them seriously.

EDIT: Oh, I forgot: Suicide bombers.

Suicide bombers: Perfectly A-OK tactic, if you can find somebody crazy enough to do it (which will actually solve the problem of having such a psyco running around too).

Civilian-dressed suicide bombers: Disgusting. There's no other word for it.

Suicide bombers targetting civs: See above on civ-dressed bombers.

Civilian-dressed suicide bombers targetting civs: Have a guess.

Crazy_dog no.3
04-01-2003, 11:24 AM
I think suicide bombing is fair, IF u don't target civilians (which unfortunately usually is the case). I mean, THEY think they are doing the right thing even if u do not. If u were Muslim ur opinions will be different. Besides, they are getting whatever thier victims are getting.

Dagobahn Eagle
04-02-2003, 09:24 AM
Ha! Now you're being delusionary. The only difference between Sharon and he PA is that Sharon has tanks and choppers. If the situation was reversed Arafat would act just as childishly.
Look: Pals are fighting for a country that was taken away from them and Israelies are fighting for a country they stole from the Palestinians.

Bah. They are fighting a war of faith. There won't be peace down there until every last one of them is dead. Sorry to burst your bubble.

I know. The fact that they've been turned into refugee camps where they're regularly being shot at means nothing, of course:p..

Same with the Israelis. They'd love being attacked by suicide bombers if only the suicide bombers were the same religion as them /sarcasm

I wish that people would stop looking at who held what a lot of centuries ago. After all Norway was Danish until 1814 and Swedish until the beginning of the 20th century. Just draw a line in the sand at some point, and call it a day. I'd say that the borders before the six-day war should be that line in the sand. You'll never find out who owns what rightfully in the Middle East: It's changed hands too many times.
No, that's not it. How many people in Europe went "okay, let's draw a line and call it a day" when all of Europe was under Nazi control? How many Americans during the Civil War?

Israelies should have a country, but NOT at the expense of others like that.

You're right, we can't decide who "legally" owns Israel. Doesn't have to mean ANYONE can just come in and grab it.

And Palestinians didn't own the country "a long time ago", but 60+- years go. The Israelis owned it 2000+ years ago. No one has a 100% right to own it, but hey, Americans don't really have a right as such to live in the USA. However, if China tried to invade the USA, we'd stop them, right? Why? Because USA now belongs to the Americans. Or would everyone sit back and watch because "it's not their [the Americans'] country anyway"?

Israel... Riiight you are... WRONG: The Babylonians were there first. But does that mean that we should resurrect the Babylonian Empire. Methinks not. FFS you're going back to some random place in history in order to justify your claim. Obviously it doesn't work.
Well, seeing there are no Babylonians left, that's not right.

Same with Israel. I mean, Americans consider the USA theirs after 300 years.

Instead of bashing whoever has an opinion, state your own opinion. It's all about standing up for freedom and peace, something the Americans right now are bashing the French for not doing.

Heavyarms
04-02-2003, 06:59 PM
well, let's see... Jordan and Lebanon don't accept refugees, so that isn't israel's fault, because they could accept them, but that would recognize israel.

If you want to get in to it, the palestinians never had a country. It was owned by the Ottoman Empire, then England, then it was partitioned, and then all those countries attacked, and they were repelled, and then Israel took there share. Blame it on the Arab countries who attacked.

No offense, eagle, you got a real chip on your shoulder against israeli's and americans, don't you? How come that is so?

Oh, and why was israel created? Do you remember whate happened not 3 years before? The Holocaust, where 6,000,000 of us were killed. That's a lot of people, I think we paid the price in blood to have a homeland, I wish to visit it someday, because it is my homeland.

Dagobahn Eagle
04-02-2003, 08:43 PM
Heavyarms, first of all, let me apologize for being so candid. If I knew/remembered you were Jewish/Israeli, I'd have been more tactful.

If you want to get in at it, the palestinians never had a country. It was owned by the Ottoman Empire, then England, then it was partitioned, and then all those countries attacked, and they were repelled, and then Israel took there share. Blame
it on the Arab countries who attacked.
I'm not blaming something on anyone. All I'm saying is, haven't the Palestinians got just as much a right to have a homeland

No offense, eagle, you got a real chip on your shoulder against israeli's and americans, don't you? How come that is so?
Definetly not so, I just happen to dislike what happens in the Middle East right now. Look, it's your homeland. You can't like what's happening there either, or do you? All I'm saying is the USA should do something about it, as they created Israel and should be held responsible for their actions. I like Americans and I don't dislike Israelis.

Oh, and why was Israel created? Do you remember whate happened not 3 years before? The Holocaust, where 6,000,000 of us were killed. That's a lot of people, I think we paid the price in blood to have a homeland, I wish to visit it someday, because it is my homeland.
Definetly so, you have the right to have a homeland.

But then again, haven't the Palestinians too by now? Shouldn't they have more than just refugee camps with too little of everything?

I want Israelis to have a country, I just don't want a repetition of Australia (Aboriginals) and America (various indigenous people), where a country was taken away from someone for the "greater good of society". Seriously, I'm close to considering the Palestinians an indigenous people here.

Yes, the area the USA initially gave you probably was too small. Still, that doesn't give you the right to invade the whole Palestine. You could have taken part of it, yes, but you've taken basically all of it.

In conclusion, I don't want the Israelis thrown out of Israel, but I don't want the current fighting down there either, and I'm sure as heck you do not. I just want peace, and in my opinion, peace can only be achieved when Palestine gets more land that can be called more than a hole in the ground. It's not necessarily about disliking Israelis (or Palestinians, for that sake). It's about believing in a course of action I believe will bring peace to your homeland, although at the loss of some of *your* territory. There is still unoccupied territory in Israel that the Palestinians can have, isn't there?

Heavyarms
04-02-2003, 09:18 PM
trust me, I don't like people thinking they can blow themselves up as a tactic of war and kill civilians, and I don't like when incursions are made, because violence erupts.

As for israelis massacring civilians, you know about urban warfare, right? Especially when lots of people are around. It is called crossfire, and I bet the terrorists that fire on soldiers kill some too, it isn't always israel's fault. I think that every life is important, and they try their best to avoid such things.

I don't like what israel does when they fire rockets in to crowds of palestinians. It is as bad as strapping a bomb to your chest and running in to a cafe.

As for the refugees, the arab countries did that. Not israel. They won't accept them.

But the worst thing is that they want a state. They have a right to live there, and it should be to coexist. But as long as they only resort to violence and feel hatred for them, no peace will come. I know some israelis don't like them either, but there are some things where camps try to get them to get along. One camp had an israeli and palestinian bunked together, and each was afraid the other would kill him, but eventually they both became friends.

A lighter note, right? :D

SkinWalker
04-05-2003, 07:25 PM
Originally posted by Heavyarms

I don't like what israel does when they fire rockets in to crowds of palestinians. It is as bad as strapping a bomb to your chest and running in to a cafe.


Actually, I'd argue that the former is less noble than the latter. Neither is acceptable since civilians are harmed, but at least the PA bomber shows a bit more courage in sacrificing him/herself for what he/she believes. The Israeli is only activating the detent switch of an aimed weapon.

Both entities in this region are wrong. They both target innocent civilians and their conflict affects the entire world, particularly the Middle East.

The best solution would be to place a complete embargo on the entire Israeli / Palestinian controlled terratories until they reached an agreement and began working together. No aid, no trade. Zip. Either they governments will realize that they must work together, or the civilian populations will revolt and take control of their governments.

Regardless, favor should not be given to either side until then.

It'll never happen, though. Too many that consider themselves to be Jewish hold positions of status and power in the United States.

Dagobahn Eagle
04-05-2003, 07:41 PM
The best solution would be to place a complete embargo on the entire Israeli / Palestinian controlled terratories until they reached an agreement and began working together. No aid, no trade. Zip. Either they governments will realize that they must work together, or the civilian populations will revolt and take control of their governments.
I do agree.
What must first happen, though, is that Bush realizes that something must be done and stops acting like the coward he accuses France of being. The USA must stop vetoing against every single suggestion in the United Nations regarding Israel. I know I've been anti-American lately, and I'm sorry about that, but I ensure you I've got nothing against Americans as a people (or Americans as a culture group). I merely communicate what I think is best for society.

Palestine must be given more land, first of all. Then both countries have to pay reparations and make public apologies to each others, and help each others recover.

Israel has a right to a country, but so do the Palestinians. And 99% of all Palestinians are innocent. And as for them being Middle easteners... well, in middle school I liked a Pakistani girl. Shut up:p

Heavyarms
04-05-2003, 10:05 PM
Originally posted by SkinWalker
Actually, I'd argue that the former is less noble than the latter. Neither is acceptable since civilians are harmed, but at least the PA bomber shows a bit more courage in sacrificing him/herself for what he/she believes. The Israeli is only activating the detent switch of an aimed weapon.


It'll never happen, though. Too many that consider themselves to be Jewish hold positions of status and power in the United States.

Well, lemme reiterate this quote: "It is worse to die for a cause than to live humbly for one." from "The Catcher in the Rye." Let me ask you something, too. What's courage? Is something courageous when killing innocent people for something you believe in is courageous? People that don't really want to be involved are dying at the hands of these people. That's courageous?

The same can be flipped as well, I am no doubt aware of. But let's think here: I kill myself to kill some others. What have I accomplished? Nothing, besides I'm now dead and I've hurt others. I don't even get to see what I've done, just know I've done something to hurt another.

Ok, name me these people who consider themselves to be jewish and hold positions of power? You sound like that loudmouth senator who said something of the sort! The only one I can name is Joe Lieberman. Name some more, please.

Dagobahn Eagle
04-05-2003, 11:02 PM
The same can be flipped as well, I am no doubt aware of. But let's think here: I kill myself to kill some others. What have I accomplished? Nothing, besides I'm now dead and I've hurt others. I don't even get to see what I've done, just know I've done something to hurt another.
Wrong. What you accomplish is media attention. It's the reason why terrorists and demonstrators exist. If the media just turned their attention away from the middle east, it'd hurt negotiations. Not to say it's a good thing to kill civilians.

Ok, name me these people who consider themselves to be jewish and hold positions of power? You sound like that loudmouth senator who said something of the sort! The only one I can name is Joe Lieberman. Name some more, please.
I'm pretty sure there are some people in the Israeli govt. who consider themselves Israeli, but of course I can't be sure..

Really, you don't "have to consider yourself Jewish" to support Israel, first of all; and you don't "consider yourself" part of a religion: Either you believe in a religion, or you don't.

SkinWalker
04-06-2003, 01:09 AM
Originally posted by Heavyarms
Well, lemme reiterate this quote: "It is worse to die for a cause than to live humbly for one." from "The Catcher in the Rye."

It's interesting, but J. D. Salinger (he wrote Catcher for those that are lurking) also said: "Anyway, I'm sort of glad they've got the atomic bomb invented. If there's ever another war, I"m going to sit right the hell on top of it. I'll volunteer for it, I swear to God I will."

Originally posted by Heavyarms
Let me ask you something, too. What's courage? Is something courageous when killing innocent people for something you believe in is courageous? People that don't really want to be involved are dying at the hands of these people. That's courageous?

Perhaps it's sitting on top of an atomic bomb, though I suspect that is not the sum of all that is courageous. Killing innocent people does not make one courageous. Neither side shows any particular courage with that regard. What I said was clear. I said that being willing to sacrifice your own life in order to accomplish a mission requires more courage than doing so by remote control.

Your anger and hatred do not allow you to see past what you expect, however. Dagobahn Eagle stated that he felt Israel to be worse in attrocity than the Palestinians. You replyied with, "since you think the palestinians are such a good people...," completely ignoring the fact that Dagobahn neither stated that Palestinians were good nor that he agreed with their methods. What he did state was that he understood their motivations.

The problem with racism and bigotry is that understanding is often the first casualty of conflict.

Originally posted by Heavyarms
I kill myself to kill some others. What have I accomplished? Nothing, besides I'm now dead and I've hurt others. I don't even get to see what I've done, just know I've done something to hurt another.

Were it that simple, I'm sure there would be fewer bombers. However, I suspect that it is far more complex. It also has to do with cultural values that are foreign to you (and to me), so the understanding may not be forth coming. The bombers believe their plight to be desparate. They believe that it is an honor to give their lives for the greater "good." I put good in quotes, since that is a one-sided perspective. I disagree with the bombers' methods. If they only targeted military or government installations and personnel, perhaps I'd be more sympathetic. However, to a PA bomber, EVERY Israeli, be it a soldier or civilian, a woman or child, is the enemy.

Do not mistake my sentiment. I whole-heartedly disagree with the destruction of innocent life. This is why I have as much disdain for the Israeli government as I do the terrorists. I see precious little difference.

Originally posted by Heavyarms
Ok, name me these people who consider themselves to be jewish and hold positions of power? You sound like that loudmouth senator who said something of the sort! The only one I can name is Joe Lieberman. Name some more, please.

Again, your anger and hatred show you what you expect, rather than what is really there. If you think about what I stated, you'll understand what I mean is there is a significant Jewish demographic in professional and political position within the United States and other core nations. Doctors, lawyers, entrepeneurs, and politicians. Ari Fleisher comes to mind, but a list of "names" would be beyond the scope of my statement.

Spencer explaining to Holden about playing by the rules in chapter 2 of Catcher in the Rye.
"Life is a game, boy. Life is a game that one plays according to the rules.""Yes, sir. I know it is. I know it." Game, my ass. Some game. If you get on the side where all the hot-shots are, then it's a game, all right—I'll admit that. But if you get on the other side, where there aren't any hot-shots, then what's a game about it? Nothing. No game.

SkinWalker
04-06-2003, 01:14 AM
Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle
Really, you don't "have to consider yourself Jewish" to support Israel, first of all; and you don't "consider yourself" part of a religion: Either you believe in a religion, or you don't.

True enough, though the part I was trying to convey to Heavy was that Jewish sentiment would take a large part in preventing an embargo that included Israel. There are too many influencial professionals and polititicians that are either Jewish or afraid to be thought of as anti-semitic, which is a grossly missused term to begin with.

SkinWalker
04-12-2003, 12:04 PM
Here's an interesting article that speaks of a point that I was trying in vain to make earlier in this thread: "Suicide bombers are not necessarily 'lunatics' or 'crazy' or even 'cowards.' " At least not in a sense that can be used to profile them at checkpoints, airports, public events, etc.

Check this link (http://cryptome.org/suicide-us.htm) for an article that discusses it and this one for the peer reviewed article in Science Magazine (http://cryptome.org/suicide-us.pdf) that was cited in the first link.