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View Full Version : JKIII ..... C&C.. rants? .. All my thoughts in generel here...


ILR
04-03-2003, 06:58 PM
JKIII's announcment made me a happy happy gamer. But when I saw some of the caps, I was more frightened than ever before. The addition of supported double saber and duel sabers is nice..... but I FEAR more than anything else that raven will just make the lightsaber battles faster and more rediculous than JKII. Raven: SLOW THE GAME DOWN. Slow it down by micro amounts, how can we appriciate your l337 saber physics if its moving too fast to see??

Rant: Whats up with this expansion crap? I keep hearing people considering this game more of an expansion than a sequal. Let me get this straight now...

JKI.... Kyle Katarn... learns Jedi moves... Vally of the Jedi... Takes down badass.

JKII... Same guy... learns Jedi moves.... similar story.. same place.. takes down badass.... (considered a sequal)

JKIII..... Different main char.... different story.... different place.... radically different sabers (considered an expansion).

I hear its because its using and upgraded JKII engine that everyone is giving it expansion rank. There was nothing wrong with the engine, and it looked damn good if you ask me. Why would Raven want to rebuild a engine from scratch? Its not broke dont fix it! It's a sequal people, this "oh-its-an-expansion/sequal" crap is just dumb.


REQUEST TO RAVEN: WHATEVER you do for SP combat, make in EXACTLY like MP combat. That way n00bs can't complain. If people feel MP is just too different to be played like SP then LET THEM HANDLE IT IN MODS. So far most of the MP mods in JKII have been trying to get BACK to SP. You made a good game now keep it true through MP!!!!!!!!!

ckcsaber
04-03-2003, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by ILR
but I FEAR more than anything else that raven will just make the lightsaber battles faster and more rediculous than JKII. Raven: SLOW THE GAME DOWN. Slow it down by micro amounts, how can we appriciate your l337 saber physics if its moving too fast to see??


I definitly agree with you on that. They should slow it down a little, and let us savor the amazing visuals the saber battles will bring.

boinga1
04-03-2003, 07:45 PM
i like it how it is now, personally....get a clan and play with timescale .5 on if you want slowmo fights.

Prime
04-03-2003, 09:09 PM
Originally posted by ILR
JKIII's announcment made me a happy happy gamer. But when I saw some of the caps, I was more frightened than ever before. The addition of supported double saber and duel sabers is nice..... but I FEAR more than anything else that raven will just make the lightsaber battles faster and more rediculous than JKII. Raven: SLOW THE GAME DOWN. Slow it down by micro amounts, how can we appriciate your l337 saber physics if its moving too fast to see??

REQUEST TO RAVEN: WHATEVER you do for SP combat, make in EXACTLY like MP combat. That way n00bs can't complain. If people feel MP is just too different to be played like SP then LET THEM HANDLE IT IN MODS. So far most of the MP mods in JKII have been trying to get BACK to SP. You made a good game now keep it true through MP!!!!!!!!! I know what your saying, but you don't want to slow the game down too much. Lightsaber fighting is a fast and furious form of combat. Just make sure that feeling of speed remains.

I agree with what your saying about MP and SP fighting, and they should be quite similar. However, there are lots of issues with MP saber fighting (like lag and so on) that you don't have to worry about in SP. I'd like MP fighting to be as close as possible to SP, but I don't want SP fighting lessened to bring close to MP.

ILR
04-04-2003, 04:05 PM
o_o I don't want slow mo fights. If "slow the game down" being in caps provided too much contrast and moved your eyes away from "Slow it down by micro amounts", I'm sorry. Slow motion fights would not be.... good. If it were me, I'd take the animations now and timescale em to like .95 or something, I'd have to play around with it...

ILR
04-04-2003, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by Prime
I agree with what your saying about MP and SP fighting, and they should be quite similar. However, there are lots of issues with MP saber fighting (like lag and so on) that you don't have to worry about in SP. I'd like MP fighting to be as close as possible to SP, but I don't want SP fighting lessened to bring close to MP.

of course of course.

ILR
04-05-2003, 07:39 PM
you may have seen this word from Raven in an interview about JKIII..

"The saber system is enhanced; it's basically the same as the Jedi Knight 2 engine, but we've added new moves and enhancements. We've tried to make a lot of the game friendlier to the mod community."

-Raven

Well thats that, then. I can see it now... the same ol' jerky reborn animations only on different models. But now theirs even more cheap specials they can pull off any time they feel like it, even if in the middle of a defensive swing. Dueling system is slowly going from fencing to arcade fighter, with button mashing combos and specials. My excitemtn just turned into major reluctancy. Those enhancments better be DAAAAAAAAMN convincing, otherwise i'd rather take my chances with JKII modders.

Necrosis
04-05-2003, 08:19 PM
I think saber battles need to be FASTER NOT SLOWER. One of the biggest problems with the saber battles online was that they were all SO repetitve. Every game was DFA after DFA or uppercut after uppercut. Got skill?
I want to be able to walk into a room, do be able to do some crazy flips, combos and stuff like that. I want people who are spectating to be able to go "SWEET NICE MOVE" and stuff like that. The fact is, jk2's saber battles required no skill, it's all the same thing over and over, which makes it boring. I think this is why people resort to playing the game like an RPG. It's the only way they can keep themselves interested.


I say, speed up saber battles(CTF games were a good pace), balance the ammo and guns (there were only 2 guns other than rockets worth picking up in jk2) and FIX THE FORCE PULL!

legameboy
04-05-2003, 08:52 PM
i wish they would just redo the saber system, yeah it was fun and and but it was... well bland saber combat, i need sumthing slow but fast and look back and remember the day i killed that cultist or reborn or whatever,they need to make it more dynamic

ILR
04-06-2003, 01:00 AM
Originally posted by Necrosis
I think saber battles need to be FASTER NOT SLOWER. One of the biggest problems with the saber battles online was that they were all SO repetitve. Every game was DFA after DFA or uppercut after uppercut. Got skill?
I want to be able to walk into a room, do be able to do some crazy flips, combos and stuff like that. I want people who are spectating to be able to go "SWEET NICE MOVE" and stuff like that. The fact is, jk2's saber battles required no skill, it's all the same thing over and over, which makes it boring. I think this is why people resort to playing the game like an RPG. It's the only way they can keep themselves interested.


I say, speed up saber battles(CTF games were a good pace), balance the ammo and guns (there were only 2 guns other than rockets worth picking up in jk2) and FIX THE FORCE PULL!

lol, we're both after the same thing, but you want to fix it by speeding things up. Yeah DFA's and uppercuts piss me off to. I think you get used to the timing and in one night you can become supreme master badass with those cheap special moves. Though I don't know how speeding the game up will allow players to pull off elaborate combos, I do agree 100% that those special moves are a sore spot in an otherwise great saber system.

Kurgan
04-13-2003, 06:16 PM
First off, you forgot about Jedi Knight: Mysteries of the Sith (released 4 months after JK) which was considered an expansion, and was at least as different from Dark Forces II as JKA seems to be from Jedi Outcast...

It also featured a different character for 2/3 of the single player game (Mara Jade).


In addition, the gameplay of Jedi Outcast was already greatly slowed down from Jedi Knight. Why make it even slower?

I think some people won't be satisfied until we have "Matrix Style" underwater ballet with the sabers. ; )

MattJedi
04-13-2003, 07:58 PM
the way i see it any laser blaster in the game shouldn't need ammo, it shouldn't need to ber reloaded, Thermal Detonators, rockets and repeater and the other non energy based weapons should cause they are none energy based weapons.

boinga1
04-13-2003, 08:06 PM
/\ So then...blaster shoot out what? Compressed air? :p

C'mon, all kinds of weapons use some kinda energy source...even lightsabers can ruin out of power (just not in JO) :p

besides, what about the repeater and flechette? are they energy based? How about bowcasters? (According to the Essential Guide to Weapons & Technology, bowcasters use something or another to accelerate some solid "arror" type thing).

Prime
04-13-2003, 08:11 PM
Originally posted by MattJedi
the way i see it any laser blaster in the game shouldn't need ammo, it shouldn't need to ber reloaded, Thermal Detonators, rockets and repeater and the other non energy based weapons should cause they are none energy based weapons. The energy those blasters use to create shots has to come from somewhere. And energy can't be made out of nothing. Blasters have ammo clips just like everything else. They just hold a different kind of ammo, in this case energy. But each time you fire, that energy will be depleted, just like every time you turn on your diskman.

How many things do you own that aren't plugged into the wall don't need new batteries or be recharged?

Blademaster_109
04-13-2003, 08:47 PM
i kinda want jkIII to be slowed down but not to much. If it is it can be less button smashing and know what ur doing type of thing.

ILR
04-13-2003, 11:03 PM
I suppose "slow down" is the wrong word for it. In SP, my big complaints were how the enemy AI's animations didn't always start animating until it was already too late for defense. The enemy's saber animations were extremely jerky, causing an abnormal effect of them having a much much faster saber than your own. I've slashed at normal reborn who have snapped to an instant block, then snapped to a downward slash. There were no steps between the instant block to the downward slash so I never saw the thing coming.


Oh yeah.. was noticing something about strong stance and Desann's cheap stance... these stances can't be blocked.. at all. Not even by other red/cheap stances... which makes SP alot like MP (where saber colision is out the window). Raven: Why in god's name did you make this stance completely unblockable? My enemy has to dodge the saber completely to not die. And the same goes for me when fighting Desann. Dodging the slashes is kinda hard to do since all enemy Jedi can always run at full speeds even when slashing (including the red stance). I mean... if I'm running backwards.. and they're running forwards.. they can bring down a red slash right through my brow and there's not a damn thing I can do about it... I can't block.. and they can run faster than me me. If jetting directly backwards isn't defensive enough for the game, then the game needs to change.

Prime
04-13-2003, 11:36 PM
Originally posted by Blademaster_109
i kinda want jkIII to be slowed down but not to much. If it is it can be less button smashing and know what ur doing type of thing. Since there are always going to be a lot of people who don't want to take the time to learn how to fight correctly, there will always be a lot of people who button mash. No amount of game changes is going to improve this. It's just the way it is...

Kurgan
04-14-2003, 05:30 AM
Well said.

HertogJan
04-14-2003, 07:04 AM
Yeah you should be able to block the red stance one way or another. Manual blocking could do this... Red stanced ruined MP a bit, although I don't really hate MP duels like some ppl do.

I agree the force powers were nerfed too much, and still they aren't balanced. But saber combat was great in JO, and I think it's great they nerfed the backstab and dfa!

I'd like the battles to be more movie like, but with slow moving strikes that isn't going to work...

BloodRiot
04-14-2003, 08:32 AM
I think the strikes themselves are not the issue... the walking speed is though. Many a time, the players just run pass eahc other mashing the buttons and usually causes either to strike the atmosphere (which looks silly) or simply strike at the almost impenatrable autodefense defense in MP that even blocks if i strike an opponent on the back... really... it's silly.

The Red stance of all should have the least defense cuz it's leaves you wide open for attack. Every guy that knows about swordplay cant tell you that... quick precise strikes are good... strong wide attacks usually means you are dead cuz they where just parried and the opponent counter striked before you even finished swinging the blasted thing.

The key thing is balance. ther should be no ubber stance or ubber trick.. just diferent means to an end. By the very nature of the lightsaber, all strikes should allow the same damage only varying in the moves or style if you prefer. RenegadeofPhunk is creating of my favorite mods called Movie Battles...basically a class oriented mod. I sugested that the stances should be picked according to the type of situation. Like blue... simple straigforward for battling the blaster wielders... good defense vs blasters not so usefull vs saber cuz it doesnt need to worry 'bout being parried so it's very blockable. Red Stance should be something liek the perfect dueling stance.. but not good vs blasters cuz real flashy moves arent very effective vs blasters cuz you should be concentrated on several incomming bolts instead of doing some leg work to confuse your enemy... the yellow should be an all-around stance for hot spots where there's both types of enemies... not particulary good vs any, but adequate for both.

Cheers.

Prime
04-14-2003, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by HertogJan
Yeah you should be able to block the red stance one way or another. But you can block red stance. If you are in red stance you can easily block a red swing. Even yellow can block it to some extent.


Originally posted by HertogJan
Manual blocking could do this...You can block swings just fine now with autoblocking. If you make it so manual blocking blocks everything, people are going to whine even more about not being able to get hits through. But I digress, as this discussion currently rages a few threads over...

Originally posted by HertogJan
Red stanced ruined MP a bit, although I don't really hate MP duels like some ppl do.How did red ruin MP duels? It even says in the manual that red stance should be used for one on one fighting.

Originally posted by HertogJan
I'd like the battles to be more movie like, but with slow moving strikes that isn't going to work... You are 100% correct :)

HertogJan
04-14-2003, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by Prime
How did red ruin MP duels? It even says in the manual that red stance should be used for one on one fighting.

You said it your self, slow swings don't make the duels nice and dynamic!! Everybody's using red (even I use it a lot in duels) and that's pretty boring. But with blue/yellow stance alone it's very hard to win duels... TOO hard...

And you can't really block red stance swings (especially he over-hed swing is VERY powerfull and unblockable, but hard to time), while at the same time, the red stance blocks blue attacks like it is nothing!! I think red stance should have less defensive capabilities...

MattJedi
04-16-2003, 12:08 AM
I never use Red stance anymore, it sucks so I use the other force points for more force power in something, I get by a lot better without red stance.

Kurgan
04-16-2003, 01:28 AM
Interestingly enough, I have beaten plenty of folks who use nothing but Red, with Blue.

Believe it or not, some of these guys are so reliant on Red, they seem to have forgotten about the other stances...!

ILR
04-17-2003, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by Prime
But you can block red stance. If you are in red stance you can easily block a red swing. Even yellow can block it to some extent.


I'll have to look up how to make an avi movie of SP, because if you use yellow, you can not block a red slash... period.

MattJedi
04-17-2003, 05:39 PM
you can if its a glancing blow

taekwondo joe
04-17-2003, 07:21 PM
Originally posted by Prime
I know what your saying, but you don't want to slow the game down too much. Lightsaber fighting is a fast and furious form of combat. Just make sure that feeling of speed remains.

I agree with what your saying about MP and SP fighting, and they should be quite similar. However, there are lots of issues with MP saber fighting (like lag and so on) that you don't have to worry about in SP. I'd like MP fighting to be as close as possible to SP, but I don't want SP fighting lessened to bring close to MP. dear God you share my thought exactly!!!

Smood
04-18-2003, 03:40 AM
Originally posted by Prime
But you can block red stance. If you are in red stance you can easily block a red swing. Even yellow can block it to some extent.


You can block swings just fine now with autoblocking. If you make it so manual blocking blocks everything, people are going to whine even more about not being able to get hits through. But I digress, as this discussion currently rages a few threads over...

How did red ruin MP duels? It even says in the manual that red stance should be used for one on one fighting.

You are 100% correct :)


No, NO! He is not 100% right. It is not about SLOW MOVING STRIKES. It is about REALISM! It is about FLUID ANIMATION. No offense prime, but I think your vision of the game strays from what ILR's main point is.

Combat must be made realistic to the movies. Is movie combat slow. Some would argue yes (Obi vs. vader - best duel ever), some would argue no (maul vs. obi + qui gon). You cannot rule combat to be one type of style or speed, saber combat is varied based soley on the combatants, level of skills, and their interaction.

So then, what is common in all these fights? THEY ARE REAL! THAT IS WHATS COMMON. The movement is accelerated, I cannot change my direction and go full speed in the other direction in a heartbeat. I actually have to swing my saber and arms, they can't just seemingly teleport around me to strike someone (poor animation).

It is about movie realism. Until we have combat WHERE WE KNOW EXACTLY WHAT IS HAPPENING, we wont have the system based on skill, rather we'll endure teh system based on 'fast fraggin fun'...

I got a 'f' word for that just to continue the alliteration.