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pds.silentsoul
04-04-2003, 12:17 PM
Dear Raven,

When Jedi Outcast came out I was another enthused star wars fan in heaven. I loved the game very much and overall it was balanced between lightsabers and guns in the beginning.

pds.silentsoul
04-04-2003, 12:25 PM
woops, i goofed and hit tab enter. the rest of the post is here...


Then Raven decided to patch the game and change all the ammo requirements for certain guns and the manna requirements for certain force powers. I'm sorry guys but once a game is out and has been for a month or 2 you cannot change 90% of the gameplay and expect people to continue playing your game. I feel I represent a majority of jk2 players which are not represented on this board who want a fast paced game to come out this fall. I can understand the saber enhancements to a point, but if this game is to be played by the masses and beat out games like Counter-strike it will have to be fast. In order for the game to be fast you must revisit jk2 before the patches. Battles were quick and decisive. People weren't always looking for ammo in games. Games were relatively high scoring. The game resembled an insanely popular ctf/tdm game known as Qauke 3. Raven followed Id software's lead and created a fast paced ctf/tdm game that anyone who had played Quake 3 or one of its clones could enjoy. But, if Raven were to enhance the saber so much that it would be the weapon of choice to many gamers mainly because they want that RPG element then Raven will have failed and scared away most of the potential gamers out there. Increasing saber abilities will only slow down the game mainly because you have to be standing 2 feet away from someone to kill them. People can run away very easily. This brings me to another point. There needs to be a gun that causes an incredible amount of damage to a person like the rail gun from Quake 3. The disruptor was nice, but you had to zoom in order to use it. This made it very difficult to use. Also a suggestion would be to increase the speed of the rockets from teh rocket launcher and give it much more ammo and possibly decrease the damage a little bit.

This is all i can think of for the moment. But Raven please listen to this post because a majority of the people who played the game do not post here because of the RPG people who do. This post will get flamed i'm sure, but there are only a few hundred, maybe a thousand members to this board. Thousands who do no post here will play the game. Remember this is a minority of the people who play the game!

pds.silentsoul
04-04-2003, 02:41 PM
Here is a quote from one of my clanmates, who at the time was one of the best ctfers in the game(keep in mind this is within its first 2 months of existence).

He played until the patch which changed ammo requirements came out. And this is what he has to say: "basically jk2's problem was the push/pull factor. There was two maps where u couldnt fall off the edge, and the other 2 were a nightmare when everyone on the other team would just throw you to your death. Push/pull is way to easy to do. The only solution is to either make them weaker so it takes more than one push/pull to take someone off an edge, or simply make maps where the voids aren't such a factor. One idea that came to my mind was to each base for ctf. One would be the faster route, but there'd be a void for someone to push/pull the fc/offense into. The other way would be longer, but have no void to be thrown into. I felt that weapons weren't as important as powers, and a balance needs to be achieved in future jk games."
-pds.dynom|te
Right now he is an avid Quake 3 player mainly ctf.

PetR-
04-04-2003, 03:00 PM
What soul has just posted is absolutely true. JK2 was a very good game for the first two months. 1.03 nerfed the game completely, and when 1.04 finally got to the community, it slowly died. Please focus more on gameplay, and the guns rather then graphics and sabers. I know you are near complection, but please take suggestions and implant them into the game from the competitors point of view.

Suggestions for guns.

Both the Bryar and Blaster were perfectly balanced and perfected, so if you keep the ammo consumption the way it was in JK2, everyone would be happy.

Crossbow is perfect

I know most people loved the repeated gun when it wasn’t nerfed, so keeping the settings like 1.02 would be perfect

The Fletchette should have one direction for its shot, and not have a different direction each time you shoot it. Those balls go differen’t places randomly each time, and if it would just go the direction you aim, it would be perfect.

Possibly change the rocket launcher to the concusion from DF2, if not, boost the speed, add more ammo, and maybe a little damage as soul clearly stated.

Most guns are perfect, and I’m just putting down the guns MAINLY used for the competitive point of view.

Force
I know you guys are implementing more force powers, but for the default ones, Most people would like to see every power back in. Please take into consideration of balancing the force powers, it is a key thing to competitive play.

Mostly what soul, coming from a very well known “clan” in the jk2 competative world, said everything that would be very nice to have.

I have very high hopes for jk3, hopefully it will be the next q3 of competition. Please consider the following Raven Software.

twl.Sphinx
04-04-2003, 03:11 PM
The problem is not that they need to not focus on sabers and graphics, but moreso that if they decide to do so, they don't need to totally neglect the guns competitive side of the game. As long as that is not neglected in lieu of doing 100s of things for saber combat, it should be fine. That being said, here's my opinion:

1) Make pull cost more, or put a delay after its use, or make it have to be aimed with the crosshair, or all of the above.
I think pull is the primary thing that takes this game away from being a skilled competitive game. It's really annoying when you are trying to play, and 10 people constantly pull you to your death, doing nothing but standing there. Absorb often isn't even effective against that many "pull newbies".

2) Make people who rage take more damage than they do.
Constant raging by people makes things hella borish. When one person does it, it's bad enough...but if 3-4 are, forget about having a good time in a CTF game, unless everybody's raging. And that's just stupid. People need to be able to be "de-raged" in some way, and quicker. For example, make detonation packs or mines always kill them or blow away their rage.

All I can think of now.
-Sphinx

Agen
04-04-2003, 03:23 PM
Actually, in the very beginning, i thought that jk sabers were bad after things got exploited, Dfa was the first thing, it was the main prob, it was fine until plyers jsut started spamming it and you could be killed when there saber is in the ground... In 1.04 i thoguht the fixed alot of bug and made the game pretty balanced comapred to 1.02 and i think i they hadn't rushed it out to meet LEC's requirments we would never have noticed. 1 patch is enoguh but 2 is a bit much since people had already adapted. twice. My advice to Raven is to finish the game to perfection before you release and not to get bossed around by LA to meet deadlines.

makli
04-04-2003, 03:31 PM
And make Team Energize balanced, in JK2 two players using TE constantly can get unlimited force.

I dont agree with ppl who say that "JK2 is about the saber". Its combination of saber/guns/force powers which makes it unique.

I m sure that JA will be great game if u ll manage to balance guns/force powers and also if saber wont be useless toy like in JK2 1.04 (in TDM/CTF on servers with enabled weapons).

pds.silentsoul
04-04-2003, 03:42 PM
I disagree with the saber issue. Somehow, you have to make it so a saber can compete with a gun if you are to use it. And personally i dont understand why you'd want to run around with a saber all game. It's like running around with a knife in Counter-strike or a guantlet in Quake 3. You have to physically touch someone to kill them, and you have to touch them many times. There is no real way to make the saber a ranged weapon. I used the saber in the beginning of the game's launch and about a week later i ditched it for a gun. Personally, and i believe i speak for the competative ctf/tdm part of the community, guns are faster killers and can kill from a distance. This increases the overall speed and intensity of the game and supplements to its overall joy in playing.

oasisfan
04-04-2003, 03:52 PM
Perhaps the return of the concussion rifle is an idea ?

oasisfan

DSbr-matt
04-04-2003, 04:13 PM
if anything, PLEASE fix force pull. this over used power was responsible for turning a very large amount of potential competitive jk2 players away from the game.

one of the great things about jk2 was the movement. you could get yourself going at insane speeds and do crazy high jumps.... only to be stopped DEAD in your tracks by the talentless power know as force pull.

how does one become skilled at a first person shooter? generally, you must master the the weapons (aim, prediction, etc) and the movement (dodging, jumps, etc). This is what separates the good players from the newbies. But what was the point of mastering movement in jk2? all that dodging and high speed strafe jumping only to be stopped by any random newbie who can stand still and mash the force_pull bind over and over. there is no reward for mastering the movement of jk2 and that is sad.

it is very frustrating for skilled gamers to be easily foiled over and over again by random talentless newbies. I'm sure that 99% of the players from competitive jk2 scenes (http://www.teamwarfare.com/forums/forumdisplay.asp?forumid=18 and the euros - esl/clanbase) will agree with me on this one. It is a MUST FIX. Please consider this in the development of JK3.

Agen
04-04-2003, 04:13 PM
I Totally agree fellow oasis lover :D with FF of course

DSbr-matt
04-04-2003, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by oasisfan
Perhaps the return of the concussion rifle is an idea ?

oasisfan

definately. replace that ****ty 2ndary repeater lob shot with the good old conc.

Agen
04-04-2003, 04:18 PM
Yep, Still the best gun in the series i think :)

Necrosis
04-04-2003, 04:25 PM
I agree with silentsoul, PeTr and Sphinx. When reading up information on JA, you hear alot about the creators focusing on the saber combat. And honestly, from what I have read, it doesn't sound like muchb is being done to it. Everyone in jk2 tried to play the game as an RPG, when it was a FPS. If saber combat was going to be focused on, and that it was final, I would reccomend adding ALOT to the saber battles. I used to be quite the saberist in my day (sadly) and all the battles seemed to be the same. Saber battles need to be ALOT more.. free. Doing some crazy high flips in the air, landing near opponent exchanging swings. That's what the experience needs to be like. Someone spectating the game should be able to go like "OOOHHH sweet move!!" after a nice kill. In jk2, after a kill, it was like, wow, never seen that done before.There was what, like 3 combos in the game and 3 different kinds of swings? Everything was so repitive.

I also like the point soul made about the balance of the saber and guns. Pro gun players and pro saber players did 1v1's often in jk2, and not once did I see a saberist win. Sabers are what makes starwars unique , and in CTF games they had no use. So why not just go play Quake or another game that specialises in gunning? CTF was great because of the fast game play, but nobody ever really used the saber too much. the most use you could get out of it was to block shots and guard yourself when making a flag run.


-Saber battles need to be alot more "free" and fast paced, and not so repetive.
-Guns/Sabers need to be more balanced in CTF Games (all types of games for that matter)
-Force powers (eg pull) need to be fixed. Like what sphinx said about being a "pull newbie". I hated that in ctf.

DSbrLogan
04-04-2003, 04:27 PM
Ok, as a member of the greatest team to ever grace competitive jk2 I will lay down some fact and opinions of mine.


the entire push/pull argument is boring. basically what happens with push and pull is that whether or not raven meant to do it, players with superior movement are actually handicapped becuase that same movement makes them a much easier target to get pushed or pulled. im sorry but the more time i spend playing the game and learning how to move fast within the games phsyics i should not be penalized because someone just bought the game and decided to press the push button pushing me back 15 feet while the next guy he pushes is also new to the game and is walking and doesnt even get pushed back in the slightest. in my opinion push and pull should be merely a continuation of pull from dark forces 2 : jedi knight. by saying this I mean that if someone presses the button to use force pull then it should pull my weapon assuming i do not have absorb on. as for push i am thinking that it should merely push back a weapon shot or if you are say within 3-5 feet of an enemy then it can push them off of their feet. it really pained my team to the point that at times this game was too frustrating to play because teams we should be beating 150 - 0 we were only beating 50 - 0 becuase our superior movement was hampered by the push/pull phsyics of the game.


second note, guns are good - all energy weapons arent. the flak gun oops i mean golan in my opinion was a bad choice. i understand that you wanted to mix up q3 and unreal weapons but sometimes it just doesnt work. there were really 2 worthwhile weapons in the game because of how quickly with good aim you could dispatch an opponent, with those being golan and heavy repeater. then you make them require more ammo thereby limiting the shots one can make without running for more ammo. im sure others will say the other weapons were good too and im not saying they werent i for one thought the stormtrooper rifle and bowcaster were really good incarnations from the original jedi knight. im not saying just copy the q3 weapon set but lets be honest for a fps the quake weapons are very tried and true. i would love to see the concussion rifle and rockets from jedi knight make a return, without taking a serious hit to speed or damage either. theres nothing more boring than being able to out RUN a rocket fired at me. let me know if anyone needs further explanation on this area.


lastly i do not know what happened with the butchering of the q3 engine (alas i kid i kid) but one thing i did not like was the relative unsmooth feeling jk2 offered. by saying this i mean that i could jump somewhere and stick to walls rather than sliding off of them. i didnt like making force jump the jump button also you have no clue how much mana i lost becuase no matter how long i paused in between jumps in my superfast strafejumping madness i would get charged for force jumping. its hard to explain but i could hit corners in jk2 and just warp into abyss instead of getting up the ledge.


i will undoubtably add more later



dsbr-logan
#darksaber on irc.enterthegame.com
Dark Saber - the uncontested gods of jk2

pds.silentsoul
04-04-2003, 04:29 PM
I totally agree with matt. In the beginning of the game, the first 2 months, nobody knew the power of the push/pull and the game was great for it. Once all the force powers were changed around after the patches people started to rely too heavily on the team energizing, pushing, and pulling. CTF is an insane challenge with the over emphasis on these powers. Raven i hope to god your reading this. If you guys do not take into consideration teh ideas said in this post the game may make money but it wont have replayability. Nobody will play it in the long run. Look at jk2 online competitive play is totally and completely dead. The game's concepts are great, they make for excellent CTF/TDM play, however the push/pull and ammo/force changes you made were waht killed the game.

PetR-
04-04-2003, 04:34 PM
All of the above.!!!

Agen
04-04-2003, 04:39 PM
Ok, as a member of the greatest team to ever grace competitive jk2 .
Heh, maybe in jk but not quite in jk2 imo.
Though saeriously, The push pull crap was well out of order, thast's why i think ledge grab sohuld be implemented, to stop the crazy crap in CTF, and the pull backstab stuff :rolleyes:
Raven should sort this out before the game is released.
Also, i think that the Conc should be put back in as it was seriously missed in jk2 (the G thing was a bad replacement imo)

DSbr-matt
04-04-2003, 04:41 PM
Originally posted by DSbrLogan
basically what happens with push and pull is that whether or not raven meant to do it, players with superior movement are actually handicapped becuase that same movement makes them a much easier target to get pushed or pulled. im sorry but the more time i spend playing the game and learning how to move fast within the games phsyics i should not be penalized because someone just bought the game and decided to press the push button pushing me back 15 feet while the next guy he pushes is also new to the game and is walking and doesnt even get pushed back in the slightest.

DSbrLogan
04-04-2003, 04:42 PM
quick followup


you cannot balance sabers and guns in a ctf environment. theres no point you shouldnt penalize regular competitive players that dont care about the saber unless in an enclosed space with an opponent, just because some saber fanatics believe that EVERYTHING SHOULD BE EQUAL OR YOU GUNNERS CAN GO PLAY QUAKE. you would not believe how many times i was told to go play quake in regular public servers because i didnt choose to play with a saber. HELLO I AM A GUNNER I CAN STILL ENJOY THE GAMEPLAY OFFERED BY SUPER MAGIC ABILITIES KNOWN AS FORCE POWERS. that whole argument about "if you like guns go play q3" is so utterly stupid considering i too like playing jedi knight.

and those that claim saber is too under powered compared to the guns, it SHOULD be. i shouldnt be killed just because someone decides that since he cannot stop me with skill that he will simply script up some saber moves and blindly hack away with it killing me in 1 or 2 hits. personally theres no point for a saber in weapons ctf save for deflecting small energy shots. i would rather see a beefier "stun gun" that carries the same damage as the gauntlet in q3. in jk2 it was ridiculously weak


what i would suggest is just a simple "tournament mod" like OSP for q3 or TTM for ut2k3. allowing saberists to enjoy their sabers only combat on their own servers with very easy to set up server configs. hopefully constructed by raven so that the entire community can accept it from the beginning instead of further splintering every competitive scene with 350902 different mods.

DSbr-matt
04-04-2003, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by DSbrLogan
theres nothing more boring than being able to out RUN a rocket fired at me.

PetR-
04-04-2003, 04:47 PM
Another thing raven should consider is add some life to 1v1. In quake 3, alot of people were into 1v1. It also had some of the biggest tournaments. Which advertises companys, which makes raven money ;).

Anyways, 1v1, JK had THEE BEST 1v1 IMO. The fast paced skill of Oasis FF blew any game away. With grade 2 drawings for gfx, the game still dominated every FPS game out there.

Consider the following:

Make fast paced 1v1 for JA
Make a variety of maps with different trick jumps etc. (Oaisis FF and BGJ did get a little boring after many years you know! ;) ).
Add the concusion rifle.
Boost speed to go insanley fast, also with strafe jumping, it really could ad a unique INSANLEY fast style of gameplay.
Add a SURGE, not a BOOST, a surge would implement and very new unique style for CTF and 1v1 if added in JA.

What people would like to see for CTF was basically narrowed down in all of the above comments.

Agen
04-04-2003, 04:48 PM
and those that claim saber is too under powered compared to the guns, it SHOULD be. i shouldnt be killed just because someone decides that since he cannot stop me with skill that he will simply script up some saber moves and blindly hack away with it killing me in 1 or 2 hits. personally theres no point for a saber in weapons ctf save for deflecting small energy shots. i would rather see a beefier "stun gun" that carries the same damage as the gauntlet in q3. in jk2 it was ridiculously weak
I mostly agree with this, but there was the same argument when jk2 was due to ocme out, they really want to balance everything out rather than making 2 dif camps liek in jk and jk2. Though, I don'ty believe the game should be like the movies but i think they should pay attention, it deflects energy and melts small bullets. A rocket SHOULD kill a jedi, just because he has a saber doesn't make him important, If it was balanced between how the sbaers and guns could contend with each other it would be pretty spiffy.

DSbrLogan
04-04-2003, 04:54 PM
and yes agen_terminator whoever you are im sure you have never heard of the great feats of clan darksaber in the arts of jedi knight two. maybe you should visit our page and take a look at the record.


http://www.gorilla2.net/dsbr


maybe the fact that before dsbr retired its original steady lineup we were undefeated since the release of the game, with the only loss in the revival of dsbr coming when none of the starters were around for matchtime and even after being told to reschedule one of the pathetic bench players so eager to prove he was as good as anyone else on the team forced other benched players to play. the dsbr starting lineup is undefeated in well over 40 games. we have not always kept track of our wins.


but now that you mention it yes dsbr was also the unstoppable god of dark forces two : jedi knight.


and undoubtably if there are somewhat decent guns in jedi knight : jedi academy and we have any fun playing it we will be the unstoppable gods of that game also.

good day to you random newbie that felt the need to reply to that one minor bit of text in a rather huge post by myself.


dsbr-logan
#darksaber on irc.enterthegame.com
Dark Saber - Unstoppable gods of jk1/jk2 making pathetic newbies cry and throw tantrums since '98, making down syndrome followers stutter out incoherent ramblings since '02

Necrosis
04-04-2003, 04:57 PM
nice post logan, some good points.


Hopefully Raven will listen, and not make the same mistakes.

I know most of the people that post here prefer the saber aspect of the game. But CTF is easily the part of jk2 that required the most skill. I think alot of the "saberists" here, are some that tried to play the game as an RPG (no offence, but it's just not how the game was ment to be played). So it's good to hear from the competive half of jk2.

Aoshi
04-04-2003, 05:03 PM
Yea, I'll have to agree with the rest of the TWL guys here.

1)Pull is really overused and it's effects negate the point of absorb. Pulling can be done continuously and when two defenders couple it with team energize, a flag carrier can be pulled indefinitely and completely stopped in his tracks and easily killed.

2)Energize is too easily spammed. Please if this force makes another appearance put a timer on it or make it so that the exact amount of force donated is the amount received and you dont receive quirky bonuses that can be exploited to fully regenerate the force pool.

3)Rage should not make you invulnerable. If this force reappears the speed and weapon bonuses are quite fine, but it shouldnt take 8 direct hits with both golan balls to kill a rager when it takes only 1-2 on a normal person and 4 on a person using protect.

4)If protect reappears please make it so that it costs a certain amount of force and does not require a force drain. That kind of defeats the purpose of protect doesnt it? I mean if you leave it on for more than 20 seconds you do not have enough force left to absorb any damage

5)I agree with petr who talked about the random factor of the golan. I hated that i would be on my target and fire only to miss by just a little bit.

6)Increase saber damage and uphold that area of gameplay, but PLEASE dont nerf our aspect of gaming (full force CTF) in favor of others. We never complain about them and we never whine about "that person dfa'ed me so i want the dfa nerfed" so next time if you decide to make a patch please dont influence another aspect of gaming (ctf) just because duelists complain when they cant get out of the way.

7)I also very much so agree with Logan on the aspect of sticking to walls. I hated that I would be strafing along full speed and then accidentally bump a wall and stick to it thus completely reducing my velocity to zero (and even moving me backwards a bit).

8)Please if the rocket launcher reappears, do something about the rocket exploit (where you get a partial circle with secondary switch to saber switch back to rocket and fire primary)

9)Please make more and bigger open maps where we can jump around and enjoy playing. So many maps are incredibly small or cramped that they are very hard to enjoy. Also if you make another smaller type map like CTF_Imperial please never again put a large shield booster in the base. This makes the game take FOREVER as there would be at times 30 minute + stalemates

10) Also please in the next installment find some way to make the force powers heal/drain/lightning somehow useful. For example make heal a certain force requirement (about the same as mindtrick) that will slowly regenerate health over a period of 20 seconds. that way a capper could turn it on before he entered an enemy base and then constantly receive health as he's being chased away. Instead of push or pull i think drain should be the only force power that can somewhat penetrate absorb. what i mean by this is if an enemy flag carrier comes to your base and you have drain, and he has absorb on you can drain him and drain for 1/3 the amount that you would normally be able to drain for. So if I Drained an opponent of mine using my entire force bar he would lose 1/3 of his. This way Drain could be used strategically to weaken flag carriers and would be somewhat useful. Lightning I suggest be replaced with Destruct so that it can be used somewhat as a weapon but is a very slow moving orb but causes mass damage that bypasses absorb when it hits (or maybe absorb can absorb all the force used but not the damage?).

11) Also if it's possible i would love to see a point system that takes into account assisting a flag carrier. It would be a system that detects if you shot or used force on an enemy within a certain proximity of the flag carrier or if you used some force power directly on the carrier. Not that points are overly important but this bonus would be nice.

12) A system that showed the percent of hits you have made with each weapon would also be nice. Although this is completely unneccessary it would be a neat addition.

In conclusion I really loved JK2 as it was my first FPS. This game has completely changed my perspective about online gaming and although i didnt agree with the constant patches and changes i still stuck with the game because it was unique in that it had force powers which added a whole new strategic element to playing instead of simply running around with a gun. I hope that you (Raven) improves saber combat as much as possible, but i also implore you not to neglect us the competitive aspect of the community. We are the ones who promote the improvement of newer players and we are the ones who provide new and interesting tactics that are later emulated by the rest of the population. Without the competitive support of a game it will never grow beyond it's infant stages so i ask you to include us when you think about the game so that Jedi Acadamy can reach its full potential and be a landmark in gaming for years to come.

BF_Aoshi

Agen
04-04-2003, 05:04 PM
Of Course i have heard of DSBR :mad:
I'm not saying that yous are unsuccessful, You were always da best of da best but (Phoenix was my fav :), he still there?) they pretty much sorta failed to make an impact on people compared to jk1, WD and BSB were always inferior and everyone kenw it - Everyone had heard of Dsbr but msot people in jk2 had never heard of any of these clans and therefore that might mean - not a big impact. I'm quite sure was ASC was more popular yet unsuccessful compared to dsbr. Happy?

DeTRiTiC-iQ
04-04-2003, 05:08 PM
Agreed. I bought JK (ie DF2) shortly after it was released but neglected the multiplayer aspect until about 6 months before JK2 was released. Up until then I had played occasionally, a few role-playing games (Drazen, Barons Hed etc) a bit of Spork craziness, but generally not much experience of JK multiplayer (or any multiplayer for that matter). Then I was challenged for a game by an experienced player, I thought "what the heck" and gave it a go, needless to say I was completely owned and it was frustrating to say the least. But the first thing I said after the game was: "teach me how the heck to do all that". Shortly after I realized just how incredible multiplayer JK was. The odd thing was, the most enjoyable (and addictive) part was the gunning. Soaring through the air picking people off with the Concussion Rifle using force seeing to see people moments before they emerged from round a corner. pure class.

Obviously there were issues, the bug of "super-gripping" and the ease of which it was to cheat meant you could never really be sure if the games were being played on fair terms, yet the game still remained addictive. Because despite balance issues, there was nothing like the pull/push of JK2 to make the game completely frustrating for even the best players.

So when I heard of JK2 I wanted more of the same, but enhanced, both graphically and in terms of game balance.

JK2 for the first couple of months was close to delivering, push/pull were a novelty at that time and nobody had really mastered kicking. Times were good, but then (and I don't know if this is directly related to the patches) people starting relying on "cheap" and boring methods of winning the games. It was no longer about lightening reflexes, skill, timing or accuracy...

CTF suffered mostly I believe, pull/push became an easy way for beginners to beat even the best, every strategy which was adopted by the competitive community to counteract this annoyance were quickly shouted about on just about every JK2 forum, aka the endless "selfkilling is so lame" threads.

Good gunners had to put up with clans of beginners exploited the kick-vote feature to take over public servers and kick anyone who they deemed "dishonourable".

Now, like all of the above members of the competitive community, i'm awaiting Jedi Academy with anticipation but also caution. So far the game sounds interesting to say the least, but so many of the features mentioned could easily become the source of numerous exploits and gaming agrivations. Raven, please don't neglect gunners in Jedi Academy, we've all but stopped playing JK2 because we were neglected there.

At the very least give the state of push/pull and dark rage some serious consideration, CTF should be about teamwork just as much as speed (in my opinion).

Agen
04-04-2003, 05:12 PM
Yep, I still think it was a bad idea to take out the map (makes force seeing useless)

PetR-
04-04-2003, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by Aoshi




7)I also very much so agree with Logan on the aspect of sticking to walls. I hated that I would be strafing along full speed and then accidentally bump a wall and stick to it thus completely reducing my velocity to zero (and even moving me backwards a bit).

8)Please if the rocket launcher reappears, do something about the rocket exploit (where you get a partial circle with secondary switch to saber switch back to rocket and fire primary)

9)Please make more and bigger open maps where we can jump around and enjoy playing. So many maps are incredibly small or cramped that they are very hard to enjoy. Also if you make another smaller type map like CTF_Imperial please never again put a large shield booster in the base. This makes the game take FOREVER as there would be at times 30 minute + stalemates





7 Totally fix that wall glitch, it really was a pain.

8 That was another big pain, someone just locking down a person, and firing the same rate as primary with no aim? That glitch really bothered me alot.

9 TOTALLY take everything in that paragraph into consideration. Have the center vest/armor in the middle, and add smaller shields scattered around and in the best. (not to much though)

DSbrLogan
04-04-2003, 05:36 PM
actually tormentor newbie dsbr rarely played jk2 on the zone. i must assume that you think the zone is the center of the universe for jk2 considering your level of obvious newbieness. truth be told that considering the client/server nature of the quake three engine playing on one persons host is one of the least intelligent ways to play jk2 i can imagine, one even less intelligent being playing dsbr with all its starters playing. instead of the zone the actual good ( i say good becuase they had some idea of what was going on, if you were to compare them to dsbr then you couldnt call them good ) players instead used such programs as gamespy3d and allseeingeye to search for games. this allowed people to play on real servers with close to equal ping.


you can go back to the saber herd and ignore this thread now tormentor

Jeff 42
04-04-2003, 05:42 PM
I agree with a lot of what has been said in this thread. I hope Raven takes into consideration the needs of the competitive/gunning players when they make this game.

As far as weapons go, most of them are good already. I especially like the disruptor and the Bryar and hope they are not changed in the next game. The weapons that I would suggest changing significantly or getting rid of are the stun baton (worthless), the Golan (doesn't really feel like a DF series gun, and can be annoyingly spammable), and the missile launcher (the concussion rifle and the rail detonator in JK were both much better, I thought). Maybe bring back the concussion rifle in some form. Also, the lightsaber definitely needs to be more powerful, but that does not mean that people who foolishly insist on using only the saber in all-weapons games should be able to rack up as many kills as skilled gunners.

For Force powers, I think a good solution to the push/pull madness is making it so you have to target someone with your crosshair to affect him. And something should be done to Rage to make it less annoying.

Agen
04-04-2003, 05:43 PM
:rolleyes:
Logan, I only played JK2 on the zone once..... very first day.
Also i've been very loyal to ASE, been using it since it was first public cause of the great pings and flag images (so you don't go on a cs server with a bunch of germans)
And i spent most of my time playing jk2 on Hermes then going (got slagged because of the way i play :)), you can ask any swampie about that, i only used the zone for jk1. Especially with all this passport crap that's flooded it, it's only good for chess now :rolleyes: The zone is no way to play jk2 and suggesting that i didn't know this is just a cheap attempt at insulting me.

Yeh, and my name is terminator :p

alarm
04-04-2003, 05:46 PM
Disruptor damage should be increased.

also, tormentor != terminator

The Truthful Liar
04-04-2003, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by DSbrLogan
actually tormentor newbie dsbr rarely played jk2 on the zone. i must assume that you think the zone is the center of the universe for jk2 considering your level of obvious newbieness. truth be told that considering the client/server nature of the quake three engine playing on one persons host is one of the least intelligent ways to play jk2 i can imagine, one even less intelligent being playing dsbr with all its starters playing. instead of the zone the actual good ( i say good becuase they had some idea of what was going on, if you were to compare them to dsbr then you couldnt call them good ) players instead used such programs as gamespy3d and allseeingeye to search for games. this allowed people to play on real servers with close to equal ping.


you can go back to the saber herd and ignore this thread now tormentor

Keep the flames down please. There is no reason to be condescending like that and telling someone to leave a thread.

DSbrLogan
04-04-2003, 05:59 PM
terminator are you a euro or from some other foreign to the usa country?



also id like to be able to pick up guns for ammo in the stock game and not require a mod to change that. you have no clue how it was pointless trying to control areas when you cant even pick up a spawned weapon to keep the enemy from picking it up.

Agen
04-04-2003, 06:07 PM
Yep, Scotland.
And i also thoguht the not being able to pick up guns as ammo was a pretty hasty decision.

DSbrLogan
04-04-2003, 06:25 PM
ah no wonder then you dont have any point of reference. supposedly "pg" was the best european clan to play jk2. well one of our members "matt" defeated "pg.retry" really badly in a euro server. so while matt had 200+ ms lag compared to retry's 50 matt still easily dominated him.


dsbr > all

twl.Sphinx
04-04-2003, 06:30 PM
I'm sure everybody is enthusiastically enthralled by "Darksaber success", but it is not, after all, the point of this thread. Damn dude..Please go flame on TWL...not in this thread.
-Sphinx

Agen
04-04-2003, 06:31 PM
Of course pg would get beat, Dsbr are far superior and i'm no fan of pg. Anyway time to get back on topic.

P4ulo
04-04-2003, 07:36 PM
I just hope this game doesnt turn out to be a saber rpg game, its true that its funny in the beginning but after that its just boring.
Take a look at some of the vids that were made.
Im not going to write what i think bout all the force powers, but indeed something should be done with force push/pull.
The game became a force power whoring all the way, rage whoring, push/pull, auto team energize whoring, etc etc
And in my opinion, one of the most important things for the multiplayer topic - We need more than 4 maps, in jk2 case only 3 maps were playable cause almost everyone hated the imperial one. If nothing is done with the force push/pull at least make less pits in the maps, but more maps.
Also and since its a q3 engine, do u know how boring it is to make a vid without the possibility to do a fast forward/rewind while seeing the demos so we can extract a few secs of a demo.
We all know its star wars, sabers and force powers existence is a requirement but changes need to be done so we can have some skill in the game.
Finally i ll add that i agree with almost every post above mine (matt, aoshi, petr, det, logan) , forgetting about the flame posts, which should be deleted to make this thread a little bit more serious.
edit: All the weapons should stay, all but the impregnator one, forgot the name...

oasisfan
04-04-2003, 08:10 PM
As the point of this thread is to suggest the ideas of the competitive community to Ravensoft in the hopes of improving on the predecessor JK2, I would like to request that all flames and nonrelated replies to be deleted so that our ideas can be taken more seriously.

Other than that, I agree on points made by Aoshi, a bar where u can see how much % u have hit would make people maybe practice their aim more. Hopefully at least.

Again, radio messages plus a personlocator would be very very nice and make the ctf game more decent.

Oasisfan

Aoshi
04-04-2003, 08:13 PM
Yea... it'd probably be better that on the off chance Raven actually checks this thread they'll find constructive ideas instead of pointless flames.

DeTRiTiC-iQ
04-04-2003, 08:16 PM
It would be useful if the players locations could also be a variable that could be used in speech binds (I think xmod may have featured this). So players can easily announce to their team where they are.

DSbr-matt
04-04-2003, 09:09 PM
Originally posted by P4ulo
Also and since its a q3 engine, do u know how boring it is to make a vid without the possibility to do a fast forward/rewind while seeing the demos so we can extract a few secs of a demo.


yes this is also a MUST FIX. the q3 engine allows us to view the console while watching a demo and type commands in as the demo plays. it also allows for us to press f1 to f12 so we can bind commands to those keys to use during demo playback. This makes editing movies a hell of a lot more easier.

in jk2 if you press any key at all.. the demo stops. we can't even bring down the ****ing console. also pls remove the stupid "shift" + "~" combo to bring down console and put it back to just "~" like in q3.

twl.Sphinx
04-04-2003, 09:13 PM
If nothing else, the demo player needs to at least be able to pause, rewind, and fast forward.
-Sphinx

PetR-
04-04-2003, 09:21 PM
I agree, if raven wants to take consideration into implementing any of our ideas, flaming must be down, and should be deleted immediatly.

High hopes for raven. What has been in development so far looks awesome, and I know it will kick ass!

The Truthful Liar
04-04-2003, 10:30 PM
How about this, so Raven will take our ideas seriously, I'll take all the good/correct points, research the threads, compile and edit the points. Afterwards I'll post it up as a gameplay specifications document (or in other words what should be done about different areas of gameplay; gametypes, weaponry, etc...), then get some feedback from you all for any points missed out/points which should be changed and edit accordingly. Only serious comments please. Does this sound reasonable or acceptable? Will Raven even take these points into account being so far into the development of the game?

Jed
04-04-2003, 10:39 PM
Personally, I highly doubt we can change what Raven is doing this far into the game. I mean, they've got a lot of it down, and may not be able to go back and do some of the things we want.

*shrugs* :)

The Truthful Liar
04-04-2003, 10:43 PM
Originally posted by Jedi220
Personally, I highly doubt we can change what Raven is doing this far into the game. I mean, they've got a lot of it down, and may not be able to go back and do some of the things we want.

*shrugs* :)

We want vs Should have. Otherwise more patches will come having to do the same thing, just later on. Perhaps Raven should think about letting certain groups for testing prior release (Gaming teams/Editing teams)? ; ) Unless Lec is against that then I suppose there's nothing that can be done except wait.

razorace
04-04-2003, 10:43 PM
That would be great if people all had the same opinion on the game but they don't. You'll get confliting answers for every issue.

Sides, the game is %60 done, they're too far along to be able to make major changes and still make their release date.

The Truthful Liar
04-04-2003, 10:47 PM
Originally posted by razorace
That would be great if people all had the same opinion on the game but they don't. You'll get confliting answers for every issue.

Sides, the game is %60 done, they're too far along to be able to make major changes and still make their release date.

Of course people will have different opinions. The point is what is right for gameplay. Weak sabers, random flechette fire are a couple examples of what is not right for gameplay. This is why I would research extensively, take into account all the feedback from everyone willing to provide any and give special note to the more reasonable responses.

razorace
04-04-2003, 11:27 PM
Isn't determining what's "right" for the gameplay very subjective? I can understand you sending in something that has a group of players group opinion on it (with signatures) but to send something in as claiming it represents a large percentage of the players isn't honest.

Actually, the group with signatures idea is pretty good. If you can come up with a statement that I can agree with, I'll sign it. :)

DSbrLogan
04-05-2003, 12:13 AM
See the thing is we arent trying to change the gameplay of a gametype we dont enjoy playing. we arent sitting around complaining about how sabers are too powerful and that if i want to use fists i should be able to kill someone that is using a saber against me.


that is specifically what saberists are doing to gametypes outside of sabers only combat. that just is not right. it would be one thing if they actually intended to use weapons other than the saber when playing in an all weapons enabled server but they dont. then they get mad that you are using other weapons enabled by the gametype. whats more than that is that they then go complain to raven and raven listens to them, ignoring the competitive community who did not feel a need to complain about anything until it was too late.


if saberists want to play with sabers thats fine and i encourage them to, since it would keep them and their rpg attitudes out of my gameworld. but on the same token dont try to plunder my gametype simply because you cant compete or are a saber junkie.

pds.silentsoul
04-05-2003, 12:26 AM
well, what i've seen so far is not 1 post in total disagreement with this thread. this is obviously fantastic and Raven NEEDS to see this and realize that if people disagreed with us they would have said something. The competitive community is obviously what will keep teh game going, and encourage future players to buy the game. Hopefully raven will realize that the "saber newbies" are a minority of gamers. So far this has been an excellent discussion. Thank you all for taking the time to post.

mortis
04-05-2003, 01:17 AM
I have to agree with most of these guys. The Jedi Knight series is one of my favorites. The integrated force powers and the lightsaber add to the game like no other game has before. However, i find that an unfair emphasis on the light saber is used. I think the saber is a great/fun weapon, but the game is still a First Person Shooter. All i am asking is that you consider us gunners into this next game.

The Truthful Liar
04-05-2003, 03:56 AM
So am I getting a yay or nay for working on a gameplay document? Let me mention that this will be for MP only of course and mostly geared towards gameplay rather things like saber hilt choosing etc... just the 'pure' gaming aspect so to speak.

Although mixed feelings are being sent about wether Raven would even look at this thread what to speak of an entire design document for gameplay - I am completely serious to starting this if everyone (interested in improving the game from Jk2) can read what will be on the document and can (in an orderly fashion, as much as possible :P) voice their opinions on the certain sections, all will be taken into account.

Having said that, I must admit it'd be good (not to mention really helpful and informative) to know what Raven has in store for us in this sequal as well as what they intend to add or not add from our given comments and opinions.

oasisfan
04-05-2003, 07:16 AM
You get a yay from me Legion. \o/ hehe :)

Ok well, how about in team games, ie ctf/tffa/cty, a script that makes different people put together each round instead of team stacking. Plus a max difference of 1 so the game wont lose it's flow.

And yes a better zoom on the disruptor is a good idea. Zoom in/out function as well. It is a bit definitive if you cant zoom out ,after u zoomed in, again ;)

I agree pretty much everything that is said on demo-ing. Watching 650 mb on demos just for a great shot that happens in minute 19.34 seconds is very boring. So plz a forward/rewind/pause/stop button.

Most of the posts are very subjective but it is all in the best interest of the game...so...

Regards,

Oasis

P4ulo
04-05-2003, 07:47 AM
Yeah do it.
I think we are all talking bout MP, i personally didnt play jk2 single version till the end (i am now) cause i started playing the MP one too soon and started enjoying it. I dont mind how the single version would be and i think its pointless to tell them how to do a single version game, i ll play it anyway as long as its different from the other titles

Btw was it possible to change the POV in a already recorded demo with q3 engine? (it was possible with quake 1)

edit: Yes to choose the right gameplay is very subjective, but there are lots of things we can point that were wrong in jk2 that could be changed and make it a lot better. And we are talking bout an fps MP in order to play in ladders. If the game doesnt require any skill at all ppl dont feel like playing it, and game will die fast.
Im not saying that sabers should be removed from the game, but for instance remember an MP CTF game sabers only, its so boring.. ruins the ctf concept of fast teamwork action mod

Agen
04-05-2003, 08:08 AM
You also get a Yay from me. Raven should pay attention to the thread and i've seen Chang floating around lately.

SlapNut
04-05-2003, 08:48 AM
who f'n cares about guns in jk, people buy this game for something different, there arnt many games where u can kill each other wich a saber/sword is there? the majority of servers are Saber only if u havnt noticed, thats cos sabers are more fun than standing back and shooting someone hoping to hit them, im not saying guns are bad on MP games, just thay suck in JK. Games like delta force adn the up comming PlanetSide are games where guns are realy good cos they involves skill over a large area, but jk is a small map and the gun abbility gameplay is poor, so sabers rule. That my oppinion anyway, im not saying your wrong.

The Truthful Liar
04-05-2003, 08:55 AM
Thanks for your opinions folks. Firstly, I'd like to wait till more people agree before starting. Secondly, where would you prefer to access the document? In a seperate thread or on a webpage which I can link to from here? I think it seems abit redundant to create a new thread where we have this, yet perhaps not.

Necrosis
04-05-2003, 09:02 AM
Originally posted by SlapNut
who f'n cares about guns in jk, people buy this game for something different, there arnt many games where u can kill each other wich a saber/sword is there? the majority of servers are Saber only if u havnt noticed, thats cos sabers are more fun than standing back and shooting someone hoping to hit them, im not saying guns are bad on MP games, just thay suck in JK. Games like delta force adn the up comming PlanetSide are games where guns are realy good cos they involves skill over a large area, but jk is a small map and the gun abbility gameplay is poor, so sabers rule. That my oppinion anyway, im not saying your wrong.

No, but I'm saying your wrong.

In case you haven't noticed, the whole saber world in jk2 had NO competition. Sure, there were clans, but what did they do? They sat in pubs all day doing "honourable Jedi Combat". Compare the "saber world" of jk2, to q3. Which do you think is more popular?

I think the reason jk2 CTF was so interesting was because of the force powers. Sure, some of them were inbalanced, but it was nice to have something different in there. The saber allowing to block incoming shots was also pretty cool. I know I would not have made alot of caping runs w/o my saber.

Sure, the saber is important in a Star Wars game. But I think these things need to be fixed so that some more of the gunning people from q3, cs ect, would want to come play this game. I myself am a very competitive gamer, and I know I would get bored by repetive saber battles. :eyeraise:

Btw, you get a "yay" from me also :D . I see no harm in doing it.
:sign2:

Necrosis
04-05-2003, 09:04 AM
Originally posted by SlapNut
who f'n cares about guns in jk, people buy this game for something different, there arnt many games where u can kill each other wich a saber/sword is there? the majority of servers are Saber only if u havnt noticed, thats cos sabers are more fun than standing back and shooting someone hoping to hit them, im not saying guns are bad on MP games, just thay suck in JK. Games like delta force adn the up comming PlanetSide are games where guns are realy good cos they involves skill over a large area, but jk is a small map and the gun abbility gameplay is poor, so sabers rule. That my oppinion anyway, im not saying your wrong.

agreed :D

alarm
04-05-2003, 09:09 AM
Originally posted by SlapNut
who f'n cares about guns in jk, people buy this game for something different, there arnt many games where u can kill each other wich a saber/sword is there? the majority of servers are Saber only if u havnt noticed, thats cos sabers are more fun than standing back and shooting someone hoping to hit them, im not saying guns are bad on MP games, just thay suck in JK. Games like delta force adn the up comming PlanetSide are games where guns are realy good cos they involves skill over a large area, but jk is a small map and the gun abbility gameplay is poor, so sabers rule. That my oppinion anyway, im not saying your wrong.

haha, you obviously havent figured out how to aim yet

PetR-
04-05-2003, 09:15 AM
Originally posted by SlapNut
who f'n cares about guns in jk, people buy this game for something different, there arnt many games where u can kill each other wich a saber/sword is there? the majority of servers are Saber only if u havnt noticed, thats cos sabers are more fun than standing back and shooting someone hoping to hit them, im not saying guns are bad on MP games, just thay suck in JK. Games like delta force adn the up comming PlanetSide are games where guns are realy good cos they involves skill over a large area, but jk is a small map and the gun abbility gameplay is poor, so sabers rule. That my oppinion anyway, im not saying your wrong.

HELLO I AM A GUNNER I CAN STILL ENJOY THE GAMEPLAY OFFERED BY SUPER MAGIC ABILITIES KNOWN AS FORCE POWERS

Logan narrowed it down in a sentence.

I understand you like to play sabers and have duels etc. But guns are a totally differen't level then saberists, so please respect that.

The Truthful Liar
04-05-2003, 09:20 AM
Originally posted by Necrosis
agreed :D

Please try expand on that thought.

Originally posted by alarm
haha, you obviously havent figured out how to aim yet

alarm: He had a totally valid opinion and wasn't giving off remarks about how we can't play with sabers. That comment was uncalled for.

Aoshi
04-05-2003, 09:22 AM
Legion my team and I (BF) will help you however we can. I wanna see this game be the best ever and draw on all sorts of crowds. If we talk enough Raven will have no choice but to hear us, and hey, they changed the game once for the worse by listening to the whining saberists why not change it for the better by listening to the people that actually know what they're talking about and spend alot of time around the game?

SlapNut
04-05-2003, 09:23 AM
sure i respect all your oppinions, i just like sabers cos there different and involve more skill (even though i suck) i barly kill anyone but i enjoy whaling it around like an idiot, jk was made for the saber and i like that.

contender
04-05-2003, 09:33 AM
Originally posted by Jedi220
Personally, I highly doubt we can change what Raven is doing this far into the game. I mean, they've got a lot of it down, and may not be able to go back and do some of the things we want.


Yes, but it can't hurt trying. As you can probably tell, the CTF Community has been far less vocal on these forums, just look at the post counts for instance. This is a great thread for getting our opinions expressed, and if that document actually gets created, there's a great chance of making a better game. I'll express my opinions when I have a little more time to post.

DeTRiTiC-iQ
04-05-2003, 10:01 AM
go ahead and write that document, but make sure you include a link to this thread (after the flames have been removed naturally), that way there is proof behind your document that a lot of people agree with it.

pds.silentsoul
04-05-2003, 10:08 AM
hey legion,
being the thread starter, *pats himself on the back*, i'll help you create this document if you wish. also i am totally for its creation. its not too late for raven to change the game. we aren't asking for a total graphical overhaul. we are just asking for simple tweaks to the game really. for instance to change the rocket speed, i imagine, is only a few or maybe 1 line of code. and, if raven doesn't realize to change this stuff they will have created a product that a lot of ctfers/tdmers will not play.

Spider AL
04-05-2003, 10:09 AM
Nice one Legion. Me and mine are with you all the way.

Personally though I think that JO tournament-winning players and only JO tournament-winning players should be used as late beta-gameplay-testers by Raven. :D

Agen
04-05-2003, 10:17 AM
Or people that got beat by spider al in tournaments...?
:D
I think should try flattening out the glitches early on and beta testers would probably do the game really good.

Aoshi
04-05-2003, 10:18 AM
God what a retard... you really can tell that pG is all made up of 15 year olds. Can someone delete that post and ban him plz? thanks

p.s. just so alot of you guys know we TWLers flame each other ALOT... it's just a joke to us and we never take each other seriously so dont take Logan seriously either cause that's just what he's used to doing. Retry on the other hand... anyways whatever just delete his post

Spider AL
04-05-2003, 10:20 AM
Yes, please get rid of that profanity-filled nonsense, admins. There's far too much fanboyitis creeping into the forums these days.

The Truthful Liar
04-05-2003, 10:21 AM
Originally posted by Aoshi
Legion my team and I (BF) will help you however we can. I wanna see this game be the best ever and draw on all sorts of crowds.

I appreciate this very much, I believe we're aiming for the same goal here.

Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ
go ahead and write that document, but make sure you include a link to this thread (after the flames have been removed naturally), that way there is proof behind your document that a lot of people agree with it.

I shall start shortly and include a link, or perhaps I should start up a new thread? If I were moderating here *hint hint* I'd have already cleaned up this thread quickly.

Originally posted by pds.silentsoul
hey legion,
being the thread starter, *pats himself on the back*, i'll help you create this document if you wish. also i am totally for its creation. its not too late for raven to change the game. we aren't asking for a total graphical overhaul. we are just asking for simple tweaks to the game really. for instance to change the rocket speed, i imagine, is only a few or maybe 1 line of code. and, if raven doesn't realize to change this stuff they will have created a product that a lot of ctfers/tdmers will not play.

Thanks for the offer, although it'd be easier for me to compile the individual parts of the documents together myself and then post here to adress each issue one by one. Note: I will need everyone's full concentration and seriousness for this to actually work!

Originally posted by [pG]reTrY
*

What does this have to do with the thread? Good job in exposing you don't have any regard for this forum or its policies. Let me just give you a fair warning: This post will no doubt be deleted/edited soon after I get someone in here. Cheers ; )

Agen
04-05-2003, 10:38 AM
Just there i went on to a fairly decent saber server (the guns ones kept kicking me, and some clan owned the sab server) to see jsut what the prob was. When i got my game the leader (was on rampage 8-0, it was up to 10) i gave him a run for his money at the beginning but he turned to the problematic tactics. It was the kicking and pulling.
The thing was, he playing fairly and things, competitive but not obsessed. When he started losing he used pull and kick.
What should be done is that you shouldn't be able to get kicked while staring straight at em, I mean the run straight into your saber and kick you, i believe that an easy way to stop this is that if you keep your eye on them it hrts them when they kick you and your sab. This would probably stop the kicking addicts.
Also the Pulling - If i was to stand any chance it was to pull at him too, so i did but what we need is some sort of counter so that they can't spam it - so like if they do it too much chances are that sometimes they miss them and it odesn't pull properly rather everytime, I think that maybe ull should pull to the ground anbd not bring them closer or bring them clsoer but not deck them.

They're just some of my suggestions in that area.

Oh yeh typings bad, i know :)

If you all agree then maybe there could be osame way we could include it in the document that Legion is writing up :)

DSbrLogan
04-05-2003, 10:39 AM
what matches would those be retry? considering i am undefeated in matchplay. its not like i let some foreigner come on to a server in my country and totally destroy me and any credibility my clan had by losing to his ping and superior skills. no you merely let matt do that to you. losing to his 200 ping in front of your teammates and even begging him to join your european clan. pretty sad you needed someone with 200+ ms to actually improve your team :(

Agen
04-05-2003, 10:41 AM
As much as yous like to snap at each other coudl you at least throw some suggestions and keep on topic? :)

DSbrLogan
04-05-2003, 10:59 AM
in my posts i have completed a layout of the most important things, if i see any actual interest in what is said here by raven then ill prepare an even more in depth list. until then its a waste of time.

Agen
04-05-2003, 11:03 AM
Well then you shouldn't really post in the thread. You could pm him :)

[pG]reTrY
04-05-2003, 11:03 AM
logan just come in eruope irc and we make a fair game on ur server not @ euro like i made against meta and blow him up with 222 ping i will do the same with u if u accept

leXX
04-05-2003, 11:10 AM
I have no time for this childish quibbling. DSbrLogan and [pG]reTrY - Take the argument to PM's.

SuperSon!c
04-05-2003, 11:20 AM
Legion are you gonna have a a document and then make it a petition for us to sign? I think that would be the best idea.

Agen
04-05-2003, 11:24 AM
Yep, and we could send it to raven with all our names on it and we could also link it in our sigs so any devs browising the board can't miss it.

pds.silentsoul
04-05-2003, 11:30 AM
very good idea. if it turns into a petition i'll try and round up all my old clanmates because i've been have a discussion with them lately about jk3. and all of them said they probably wouldn't play unless the changes i outlined and DSBR outlined specifically were made. so, if this petition style thing happens i can guarentee a few signatures.

Spider AL
04-05-2003, 11:31 AM
If and when it's done, I'll publicise it on the major Euro networks. Here's hoping.

The Truthful Liar
04-05-2003, 11:40 AM
I can't create a petition until a good number of issues/points have been composed and adressed. Things don't happen just overnight, it will take a good day or so to work on this document (that doesn't include discussion time on the boards) so patience will be required.

I shall post up a link later tonight to where the document will be updated, I'll also put in bold quotations the topic at hand needing attention in this thread (if something is mutually agreed upon between all the members then we can move along faster on to the next topic). Or should I create another thread? (I ask this for the last time :P)

oasisfan
04-05-2003, 11:46 AM
Dont create a new thread, it would become confusing I think.

Agen
04-05-2003, 11:49 AM
Perhaps on certain subjects you should amke new threads.
And also i think we should round up all our ideas so we can see them clearly.

pds.silentsoul
04-05-2003, 12:23 PM
a *bump* is needed every now and then. this is obviously the most in depth and meaningful thread that has been on here in a very long time. i haven't been a member long but i've read the boards for awhile. and this baby needs to be at the top :D

Agen
04-05-2003, 01:29 PM
Yep, Hopefully Raven are taking notice.

RabidPanda
04-05-2003, 01:56 PM
I think I'm going to like this game... :D

razorace
04-05-2003, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by P4ulo

Btw was it possible to change the POV in a already recorded demo with q3 engine? (it was possible with quake 1)

Yes, just set cg_thirdperson before you start up the demo.

The Truthful Liar
04-05-2003, 03:12 PM
Drdeath: Thank you for adressing the topic at hand! :|

For those who are wondering how the document is/will be coming along; let me just say that I've bought two liters of coke to help me through the night. ; )

Agen
04-05-2003, 03:17 PM
Smeh... get the 3 litres of virgin coke, 4 times as much caffeine i believe ;)
And Dr death was only telling us why they're here and what trouble they are..... :/

Aoshi
04-05-2003, 03:20 PM
WOO thanks legion it's great to see that we can get all aspects of varied communities to work together for the betterment of a game. If you need some help or someone to proofread or something just IM me it's in my profile. I'm a college student so i might be of some help anyways just let me know.

Break_dF
04-05-2003, 03:50 PM
Finally, a non-retard post on these forums...

Here's a suggestion; actually beta test the game before you release it?... that usually works. And, when you test, use people that aren't complete idiots. I'm sure bf, dsbr, rise, fk, shock and whoever else would gladly volunteer to promote a decent game. Those clans contained some of the early "innovators," people who knew/know the engine and are quick to find exploits.

LITE Jedi
04-05-2003, 03:58 PM
I think that when they started JO (JK2) they were making a FPS with sabers. This is what their whole goal should be all along. It should be more focused around guns; that seems to be the community favorite. It should be guns with sabers, not sabers with some guns. I think that the reason people don't like JK2 or just don't play JK2 very much is because the guns weren’t worth getting "leet" with. sure any new-b that has played a FPS before could just pop into the game and blow every one away, but I think what made counter-strike and other FPS games more successful is because it was very competitive, you could become very, very good at the game, and you were rewarded for it, (classic conditioning) people appreciated how much time you spent on it and how hard you worked to become good at the game. In JK3 Raven needs to definitely fix the guns issue. Meaning they need to fix, more ammo, more accuracy, speed it up.
Speeding it up could also help the saber combat and would even help the "saber only" people in this game. Also I think that the reason there are so many "saber only" games out there is because maybe they didn’t make the duel option well enough. I read the article that LEC posted about it, it is suppose to have more Jedi in combat, well maybe they could put in an option for perhaps teamed duels. But one of my main points is definitely speed up the game play. And please limit the use of force pull.

Agen
04-05-2003, 04:00 PM
Personally though I think that JO tournament-winning players and only JO tournament-winning players should be used as late beta-gameplay-testers by Raven.

But i agree that perhaps the people that exploited the bugs should beta test :)
JO tournament winner mgiht be better though since they'll be more liekly to be honest than clans (they might leave a bug in to keep for themselves etc.) Not that i'm syaing that that would happen but they probably deserve it more :)

Necrosis
04-05-2003, 04:15 PM
Who better to beta test the new game, than the pros of the old one ? *AHEM* :D

I think we have alot of great ideas in here, and we got get TONS of people to sign the petition. Lets do this shiet


:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

WD_ToRMeNt
04-05-2003, 04:23 PM
*Sighs* Here we go again. Hello to you pds and DSbrs btw. JK2 was ok when it first came out, but yes it sucked after the patches and most of the real gamers quit. I rented the WD JK2 for 6 months and only got 2 months of play on it before I completely lost interest.

As in the development of JK2, the true hardcore gamers were far outnumber buy the star wars fan boys that just want to swing a glowing stick and pretend to be Puke Skyfaller. Hopefully Raven has noticed that JK2 MP is nothing right now, there are 10 empty servers for every one that has 3-4 players. If they are smart, they will do what they SHOULD have done with JK2; listen to the real gamers, people who play for the gameplay and not just the star wars image.

From what I've read, the game is mostly done which means that unless they've already realized certain things then there is no going back. Anyways, there would have to be a total rework of forces and guns to make JK3/JA worth playing.

pds.silentsoul
04-05-2003, 04:31 PM
hey, i'd say keep hope. they do not have to release it absolutely on time. games have been pushed back before. and, its due out in the fall which means they have like 3 or 4 months of programming time to tweak the weapon systems, and force. i think the guns were OVERALL decent in jk2. my main beef with them was the ammo requirements. you were always and i mean always low on ammo. these are simple things to change and would seriously enhance the gameplay.

so just keep hope. hopefully this post will catch someone from raven's eye in a few days. i've posted on every board i can find with a link back here. i posted at www.ravenforums.com www.ravensoft.com and www.teamwarfare.com all which link to this thread. so keep your fingers crossed.

Taos
04-05-2003, 04:42 PM
Leigon as you know I'm for your idea. I'd like to help out as much as I can. :) If you feel you need to start a new thread to eliminate confusion...by all means do so [even though it might not have the desired effect]. If you want to do that thread, we can have it heavily moderated.....meaning anything other then legitmate suggestions will be deleted from it.


Originally posted by Agen_Terminator
And Dr death was only telling us why they're here and what trouble they are..... :/

We're keeping an eye out. :)

Agen
04-05-2003, 04:56 PM
Is that not sore?
Sorry sorry, bad joke :D

A new thread wouldn't be bad, one that would actually catch people eye rather than "my thoughts"

The Truthful Liar
04-05-2003, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by pds.silentsoul
so just keep hope. hopefully this post will catch someone from raven's eye in a few days. i've posted on every board i can find with a link back here. i posted at www.ravenforums.com www.ravensoft.com and www.teamwarfare.com all which link to this thread. so keep your fingers crossed.

I hope so to, also that's a big help, thank you.

Originally posted by Leemu Taos
Leigon as you know I'm for your idea. I'd like to help out as much as I can. :) If you feel you need to start a new thread to eliminate confusion...by all means do so [even though it might not have the desired effect]. If you want to do that thread, we can have it heavily moderated.....meaning anything other then legitmate suggestions will be deleted from it.

Well personally I'd like to open up a new thread to reduce the clutter, however I'm not sure how other people would react to that. What say ye all? Yay or nay? Take into account that Silent soul has already linked this particular thread in several other websites, perhaps we should try keep things organised here?

Originally posted by Agen_Terminator
A new thread wouldn't be bad, one that would actually catch people eye rather than "my thoughts"

Well if no new thread is created perhaps change the title of this one to "GSD - Game Specifications Document", or something along those lines. :]

BF_PaladinVII
04-05-2003, 05:09 PM
You guys are pretty much saying what I would say. I also agree with that document thing, sounds like a good idea. JK2 was fun for me for a while. I struggled with it, however, because of the patches. The gameplay changed so much I no longer understood how the game was played and lost interest. But the concept of JK is still very appealing and I'm looking forward to the next installment. Please Raven, take your time and don't create uber-nerfing patches.

Break_dF
04-05-2003, 05:12 PM
... or change the thread title to something like: "FREE HARDCORE HENTAI GOAT CHEESE FLICKS."

that's bound to get any raven dev to take 15 minutes for a "coffee break."

...just a suggestion.

P4ulo
04-05-2003, 05:13 PM
I think there s no need for a new thread but a deleting hand would be usefull before this turns into a sabers vs gunners war thread.
:band:

leXX
04-05-2003, 05:23 PM
Ok Legion, tell me what you want to call the thread and I'll change it for you, and I'll keep an extra close eye on this thread and delete all irrelevant posts for you.

DSbr-matt
04-05-2003, 05:43 PM
here is a good discussion on force_pull from the TWL forums. it pretty much shows the serious/competitve jk2 players opinon on the worthless power.

http://www.teamwarfare.com/forums/showthread.asp?forumid=18&threadid=34333

ya ya im banned for being a deviant socipath or something. try not to have too much fun with that one newbies.

The Truthful Liar
04-05-2003, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by DSbr-matt
here is a good discussion on force_pull from the TWL forums. it pretty much shows the serious/competitve jk2 players opinon on the worthless power.

http://www.teamwarfare.com/forums/showthread.asp?forumid=18&threadid=34333

ya ya im banned for being a deviant socipath or something. try not to have too much fun with that one newbies.

Thanks, I'll look into this. I think it certainly is an important detail under the force section (yes I've started working on different sections now :P) which needs to be addressed and resolved for JK3.

SuperSon!c
04-05-2003, 05:53 PM
I totally agree i think that it would of been a much better game if they would of tonned down rage/pull/push.

DSbr-matt
04-05-2003, 06:00 PM
Originally posted by DSbr-matt
here is a good discussion on force_pull from the TWL forums. it pretty much shows the serious/competitve jk2 players opinon on the worthless power.

http://www.teamwarfare.com/forums/showthread.asp?forumid=18&threadid=34333

ya ya im banned for being a deviant socipath or something. try not to have too much fun with that one newbies.

hmm.. maybe you shouldnt go there on second thought. after actaully reading it, i have come to discover that it's mostly flames hehe. but Det says it best in that thread with:

"A game is fundamentally flawed when the cheapest and easiest move in the game is the only requirement for defence in public CTF"

and

"Matt isn't arguing that you need to use pull and push to win, he's saying that the game is fundamentally flawed if you need to rely on a cheap and skill-less set of moves to play."

Agen
04-05-2003, 06:01 PM
After we have it nearly all done up shall we send it Raven and spread it all over the board and things?

The Truthful Liar
04-05-2003, 06:06 PM
Searching for proper suggestions through some of these threads/pages is more difficult than I expected, with all the spam to wade through it's like an endless ocean. :| If (any of) you have links to supply this thread, include what part is important that should be looked into and what it deals with specifically.

SuperSon!c
04-05-2003, 06:09 PM
I think that maybe if they changed absorb so that you didn't just stop that it would be a great balance because the push and pull wouldn't be much of a problem and absorb could compete with rage.

Agen
04-05-2003, 06:28 PM
What the hell happened to constructive critisicm?

Ban-tha Fodder

Break_dF
04-05-2003, 06:30 PM
Originally posted by de.Legion
Searching for proper suggestions through some of these threads/pages is more difficult than I expected, with all the spam to wade through it's like an endless ocean. :| If (any of) you have links to supply this thread, include what part is important that should be looked into and what it deals with specifically.

just make sure you include something about serious beta testing please... I think/hope that's a no.1 priority for raven.

Agen
04-05-2003, 06:31 PM
If it's not then it should be!

shock ~ unnamed
04-05-2003, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by SuperSon!c
I think that maybe if they changed absorb so that you didn't just stop that it would be a great balance because the push and pull wouldn't be much of a problem and absorb could compete with rage.

For guns that would be cool, just shoot the guy in the back as he's making for his base to cap.

But in FF/SO CTF (a widely popular game type since day one) that seems like a very frustrating scenario to me.

Grab flag, flip on absorb and speed, cap.

Even a guy with lesser evasion/jumping skills would be able to reach a base to cap effortlessly if there was no way to "delay" his movement.

pds.silentsoul
04-05-2003, 06:45 PM
Legion. The information i've seen thus far that has been agreed upon by everyone is: The guns were made weaker by the first patches which changed the ammo. Push/pull/rage all need to be equaled out for a more enjoyable experience. And beta testing this game publicly or privately(but with people like pds, dsbr, and other jk2ers who aren't avid star wars fans) needs to be done to make sure the game will be an appealing ctf/tdm/ffa experience. And the saber combat needs to either be changed somehow in order for it to actually be something you'd wanna do in a all weapons server.

Aoshi
04-05-2003, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by shock ~ unnamed
For guns that would be cool, just shoot the guy in the back as he's making for his base to cap.

But in FF/SO CTF (a widely popular game type since day one) that seems like a very frustrating scenario to me.

Grab flag, flip on absorb and speed, cap.

Even a guy with lesser evasion/jumping skills would be able to reach a base to cap effortlessly if there was no way to "delay" his movement.

No IF the saber did a 1-2 hit kill then it would be much easier to return the flag, so then the game would revolve around which team has the best flag returners (which is based on individual saber skill). This would be perfect for saberists because it would be mainly a so/ffa but with a purpose. This all hinges on sabers being more powerful though, so naturally cappers would be able to get away but then they'd actually have to defend themselves instead of running around getting team healed and team energized.

shock ~ unnamed
04-05-2003, 07:19 PM
I played SO/CTF back in 1.03 a little and I do admit the games were much more fun and had a faster pace because of the back stab.

It was kind of like the saber version of instagib CTF.

Regardless of absorb though I think push/pull should function with "gun like" physics.

As in the cross hair needs to be on them for it to even function.

I also think the range needs to be shortened to something like the level 3 drain range.

Being able to stand 100 yards away and just pull in the general direction is kind of dumb.

P4ulo
04-05-2003, 07:39 PM
Maybe we should get a poll going on with the main changes and put everyone to vote on and send the results too to support it

ex:
- Should force push/pull be toned down: yes/ no / dont care
- Should be added new weapons..
- Should any weapon be removed..
etc
and all the mentioned stuff in here

legameboy
04-05-2003, 07:45 PM
there needs to be more JEDI moves like the reborn did and more, we need to be able to even kick or punch if we want

pds.Yahweh
04-05-2003, 07:46 PM
I agree with alot of what has been said, but just so Raven gets the message I'll give a post. Playing in the JK2 community from start to finish I feel I represent many of the viewpoints held by its various members. Starting with PDS helped me pick up the game quickly and watching the community grow pre-1.03 days was great. The game had few things that truly annoyed me besides the gun for ammo thing, which was of course never fixed. 1.03 was released and then just like that it was gone. PDS pretty much dropped out of existence and various other clans vanished. I eventually played for Valar and then a quick stint with pds(comeback) in the end, but nothing was like the early days.


Force powers were probably well intentioned, but made no sense at all...Push/Pull was so ridiculous and has been mentioned so many times I do not need to delve more...Speed and Rage need to be in check with Push/Pull, not one dominated the other...Speed needs to be less mana, the game turned into who could die the quickest after using one of those powers...just get rid of dumb force powers like protect or whatever the heck it was called...Lighting was dumb...Absorb was fine, but I never liked how it would stop u mid-air when u got pulled/push (is it possible to have different degrees of absorb so that push/pull wouldnt effect u?)...I wont go into all of the force powers, but u guys know which ones were flat up retarted and need to be majorly revised aka push/pull, shield.

I rarley used sabers so I wont discuss them to much. I always thought it was useless to have so many stances, moves etc... for soemthing not used in ctf multi-player on a competitive level . Of course saberist multi-player will differ, just get rid of alot of the garbage for ctf play.

Ammo needs to be changed so you can pick it up with a gun. I always liked the weapons other than the disrupter. What a piece of garbage. Make it a rail gun (q3).

Thats all for now. Hopefully JKIII will be awesome.

---Yahweh---

Necrosis
04-05-2003, 07:49 PM
de.Legion, hopefully this will help. I'll outline most of the good points made.

-"The Fletchette should have one direction for its shot, and not have a different direction each time you shoot it. Those balls go differen’t places randomly each time, and if it would just go the direction you aim, it would be perfect."- PetR

-"Make pull cost more, or put a delay after its use, or make it have to be aimed with the crosshair, or all of the above."
-twl.Sphinx I would like to add to this thought by saying that alot of people have also suggested that force pull delay the persons movements that you are using it on, rather just have it take away their weapons, or maybe just not such a dramatic delay.

-"And make Team Energize balanced, in JK2 two players using TE constantly can get unlimited force." -makli

-"Perhaps the return of the concussion rifle is an idea ?" -oasisfan

-"definately. replace that ****ty 2ndary repeater lob shot with the good old conc" - DSbr-matt

-"Another thing raven should consider is add some life to 1v1. In quake 3, alot of people were into 1v1. It also had some of the biggest tournaments. Which advertises companys, which makes raven money . " -PetR

-"Make fast paced 1v1 for JA
Make a variety of maps with different trick jumps etc. (Oaisis FF and BGJ did get a little boring after many years you know! )."
-PetR

-"Increase saber damage and uphold that area of gameplay, but PLEASE dont nerf our aspect of gaming (full force CTF) in favor of others." -Aoshi

-"Please make more and bigger open maps where we can jump around and enjoy playing. So many maps are incredibly small or cramped that they are very hard to enjoy. Also if you make another smaller type map like CTF_Imperial please never again put a large shield booster in the base. , also very much so agree with Logan on the aspect of sticking to walls. I hated that I would be strafing along full speed and then accidentally bump a wall and stick to it thus completely reducing my velocity to zero (and even moving me backwards a bit).

-" Please if the rocket launcher reappears, do something about the rocket exploit (where you get a partial circle with secondary switch to saber switch back to rocket and fire primary)" - PetR

-"Disruptor damage should be increased." - alarm

-"If nothing else, the demo player needs to at least be able to pause, rewind, and fast forward. -Sphinx

-"Here's a suggestion; actually beta test the game before you release it?... that usually works. And, when you test, use people that aren't complete idiots." -Break_dF



Hope that helps a little, might save you some time searching though this.

If anyone else has something to add, go ahead.

Shaggy1984
04-05-2003, 07:52 PM
How about for guns, location specific damage in multiplayer. It was in singleplayer. So why not the same in Multiplayer. I really found it rather frustrating to snipe someone in the head with a fully charged rifle, and it having no extra effect than to say hit them in the leg :confused:

Also how about for gunner a skill system, in the vein of promod. You specify what sort of gunner you want to be. One who proficient in pistols, gadgets, rifles, heavy weapons, demolitions, electronics, heavy armor, recon etc...

Replacing the force power selection.

Majorly upping the thermal det damage :D

How about the blind grenades from Mots

Also how about upping the energy weapon damage (pistol, St Rifle etc.) just a bit. I'd also rather see a wider range of weapons from the existing SW universe. Rather than seeing new made up weapons with crazy effects.

A wider range of gadgets. Grappling hook, jetpack, deployable ammo/shield stations, deployable turrets, Radar etc.

A better sniper rifle that can kill in one head shot despite having full armour.

A peak move for gunners.

How about also having a weapon limit of 2-3 weapons tops. Rather then enabling gunners to be a walking arsenal.

More interactive multiplayer levels. Lights, traps, turrets etc.

Give the gunner some athletic moves, roll, Sprint, edge cling, back to wall (in 3rd person), Quick shot (from back to wall) , Peek etc.

Oh and also how about weapon recoil.

Perhaps a stamina system, allowing Gunners to have a quick burst sprint, roll, etc.

Thats a few of my ideas for guns Multiplayer, I know this is asking way to much, but what the hell :D

I'll be back with my ideas for sabres later :D

The Truthful Liar
04-05-2003, 08:03 PM
Thanks for the outlines Necrosis. Don't doubt I'm not reading these, as a matter of fact I'm writing down outlines on paper, discussing them with a couple people and working on the document simotaneously as I type this (God bless coke). :-)

DeTRiTiC-iQ
04-05-2003, 08:06 PM
I just had a thought which *may* work, but I can't stress enough that this idea would need serious beta-testing.

Change pull/push so that instead of instantly changing the motion of the target an actual force is applied to them in the relative direction of the force power. The longer the player holds the pull/push button, the greater the effect on the target, if pull/push gets to a fully charged state, the player literally flies back (as in the current state of the power). Naturally the longer you hold pull/push the more mana it uses, start off with at about 10 for tapping (slows the target down) but increase to about 50 for a full charge. Oh and of course, the player has to be directly targetting the enemy too.

Advantages:
- Not easily spammed, simply hammering the pull key will only have a minor effect on the enemy
- Requires skill and accuracy, not only do you have to target the opponent initially but you have to be able to follow their movements to get the most out of the powers
- More realistic and believable, and mimics the effort a Jedi has to put in to fully manipulate an object/person as opposed to gentle coercion.
- The target can tell when they are being pulled long before the full effect kicks in, so they have a couple of seconds to react (dodge, jump, attack the player) before being fully in the grasp of the power.
- Any more?

Disadvantages:
- Still doesn't solve the problem of rage usage (short of removing the power altogther or limiting the player to either rage or speed on at once but not both, I don't have much of a clue here)
- Not newbie friendly... oh wait, this should be in advantages!

Where do Rage and Absorb fit in?:
- Absorb: Absorb makes it require a larger charge to manipulate the target and the overall effect is weaker, but a full charge is fully capable of seriously slowing down an enemy's movement.
- Rage: Rage makes the player easier to move and the effect of a full charge is to literally throw the target in the relevant direction.

I expect this idea has some flaws, but since its unlikely Raven will remove pull/push altogether, this is all I can think of.

DSbr-matt
04-05-2003, 08:28 PM
Originally posted by shock ~ unnamed
Regardless of absorb though I think push/pull should function with "gun like" physics.

As in the cross hair needs to be on them for it to even function.


ya that might be a good idea. maybe, like a gun, push/pull could shoot some sort of magical force projectile where you would have to hit the target for it to work.

PetR-
04-05-2003, 09:07 PM
Hey de.Legion, if you need any help what so ever on what you are typing up, please... contact me on aim : petrm88

What people have said so far is excellent.

Also could a moderator please sticky/stuck (whatever you want to call it lol ) this thread.

:D

The Truthful Liar
04-05-2003, 09:25 PM
Anyone who wants to be part of live discussion for the GSD tomorrow please join #JK3 on quakenet, no arranged time as of yet. The GSD topics have been set, I've written well into 4 pages of details in my notebook.

I hope to use portions of these notes and include them into their related topic issues. One liter of coke (the 1.5 kind) left to go, I might just have to leave this one till tomorrow night since the time is already 4 AM here. :]

If you want to help I suggest coming online to IRC tomorrow and in the meantime please keep those highlights coming if there are more available, otherwise, I'll just collect everything in the past 3-4 pages in this thread and write those down as well on top of the notes I've written down so far.

Cheers to all here who helped and for your great support, I really do hope this makes a difference and that we're not only dreaming.

Just as a reminder, tomorrow besides the live discussion, (it'd be alot easier for you all if you could join though) certain highlights will be posted here from the GSD and everyone can give their own opinions on that specific topic/issue. If the general concensus is a favourable one then we can proceed onto the next topic, if not, then we discuss further. G'night everyone!

Zodiac
04-05-2003, 09:36 PM
hmm.. If Raven manages to create a sabersystem that works perfect and is great fun.. and they manage to create a gunning system which is also fantastic.. then they should stick to it and don't change it just to balance it with another system.

Most of you will think:"well duh, that's obvious, if it's great don't change it" ..

But what I'm trying to say here is that if they manage to create those 2 great settings (like great Guns No Force and great Sabers No Force), that work great and are terrific fun when the player only chooses to play only guns or to play only sabers, but don't really work well when the player chooses to gun-and-saber at the same time, then don't change it just to balance it so the gun-and-saber option will work. If guns/sabers only is great fun, and guns with sabers is mediocre fun, don't sacrifice and edit the great fun to turn that other mediocre fun into 'just good' fun.

Like.. imagine they create this great new rifle, and it's loved by all the gunners out there....and all of a sudden this great new rifle gets removed, because it's not balanced in an all weapons (guns&sabers) -setting... I think removing that new great gun would be wrong.

I say: Don't focus too much on the balancing of all the settings so they can be used simultaneously

I say: Focus on what makes each setting real real fun on its own, then stick to that and don't change a great and fun attribute when it doesn't seem to be working in a setting that combines multiple settings. (like.. you have 1 setting: NF Sabers, and you have multiple settings: FF all weapons).

And I think they should start their development-process by separating each setting (Force, Guns and Sabers) and tweaking each setting so that each setting is great fun and absolutely perfect on its own.
Then later they should start to focus on looking how the settings can be combined, and if the combination of 2 or more settings can't be done without sacrificing a great attributte of the single setting, then don't try to combine em and live with the fact that not everything can be balanced. That is reality I guess, not everything can be balanced.

Jolts
04-05-2003, 09:39 PM
Biggest thing for me that they can impove on is to make everything move and feel solid in the gameworld. JO was too slippery, to floaty in sp and mp, nothing was grounded, nothing had weight to it.

Force jump you just lifted up off the ground like noclip was enabled, no weight in it or speed or timing. Everything moved in even speed with no ease in or out, no actions had ancipation to them.

Instead of swivling your hips and runing to the side for the strafe animation, how about an actual side step?

Zodiac
04-05-2003, 09:48 PM
Yes yes, Jolts has a good point here. Because of the floating feeling I also had the idea that movement was just real slow in the game. Your character had the animation of running, but I never felt he was going fast.

Also... they should work on different speeds, like moving backwards should be slower than moving forward.

Doctor Shaft
04-05-2003, 10:17 PM
I'm glad all the 'pro' players are giving their opinions. I agree wholeheartedly with everyone that this game needs to go back to its JK roots to an extent (not entirely).

Guns:
They need to be powerful, they need a good amount of ammo, they need to be fast. Damage needs to be high. In addition, the reduced feedback damage needs to be REMOVED. I can't tell you how annoying this game got when I would actually time a well placed push that shoved a guys projectile right in his face before it even got 3 feet out, only to get nothing out of it because he only takes 60% damage. This is just wrong. If we're going to be talking about skill, then we need to take out all the handicaps. I'm okay with everyone's "make the game skillful" stuff, so long as as we cover all aspects. That means no "golan rushes". You kill somone up close, you need to die too. 100% feedback, please!

Sabers:
A touchy subject. The bottom line is this: the sabers need to be fast, furious, and deadly. That's it. 1-2 hit kills. Who cares if blue stance ends up tearing people up, etc. We can't have this "hit me 3-4 times" crap. Why do the l33t gunners hate saberists? Because they waste time, that's why. "Saber battles are boring" is the common mantra among good players. They are boring because they are slow, long winded, and when people lock into a battle, it wastes time. Saber battles need to be as short as gun battles. That's the only way anyone is going to accept their existence in competitive play. I played JK2++ awhile back because it was both fast, guns had ammo (this was during 1.03 days), speed cost was reduced, AND the sabers did a huge load of damage. This meant that I could use my saber and kill the gunners. It was hard, but I could do it in one good swing. It needs to be like this. They can blow me away from almost any range, but if I close, I should get my kill.

The thing a lot of gunners are saying is "give the saberists their stuff, but focus on the guns, respect our game aspect". I respect your aspect. I HATE saber only servers. I don't like saber only combat. I LOVE using my saber, along with a disruptor and thermal detonators, against gunners. So long as you give me the ABILITY to get kills in a high speed, competitive game, I'll be happy. The gunners like to use guns only a lot. They say saberists are awful because they won't use any other weapons. Fair enough, I recognize when I need to use guns to accomplish the job, but gunners have to recognize that while they love their guns, I love my sabers, and I just want to have the ability to use it in a fast paced, murderous way. Thats' all I want. On the other hand, if they want us to use guns so badly, then I want them to have to use the saber sometimes as well; you know, in those rare situations; or face death. No damage reductions. No super blocking. Deadly sabers, paper thin blocking is good for me.

Force Powers:
Detritic's pull/push thing is a good idea, along with the idea of having to aim like a gun. The area effect helps with pushing projectiles back. However, in order for the effect to hurt others, it should need to be aimed.

Otherwise, force powers need to be powerful but rare. JO had tons of force power spam Some powers were entirely useless (lightning, mind trick) while others motivated the entire game (rage, speed, absorb). There's no doubt that neutral powers should be the dominant influences of the game. Speed and jumping, the stuff that makes us move. Stuff like Rage was over the top. CTF became a use/or lose kind of thing. You either had absorb, or you had rage. Rage making me fire guns faster was silly. Neutrals should be powers that I can use a lot (minus push/pull). Specials should be things that I can use sparingly, but have a useful effect. Stuff like protect was almost a waste of time. Give us powers that have immediate, short ranged powerful effects at a high cost and difficult set up. I think that would be good. Dousing people with 20 seconds of lighting wasn't cool.


Guns/Sabers/Force Power Settings:
The one gross disadvantage a saberist ever had was that a gunner who didn't like his lightsaber could just forgo it and have superior force powers. I'm all for the gunner/saberist/etc. having force powers. But having to pay a high price for my saber, especially when it's not an uber weapon in any sense, and then watching the gunners completely over power me in both force and firepower is annoying. Just give us the saber moves. Defense/Offense should just be cut. The guy who forgoes the saber moves is actually at an advantage in JO, because frankly, he doesn't need the glowstick to win. Just give it to us for free. Let me select which saber i carry, and that would be the end of it. It won't hurt anyone. We want the fast paced game where you need to use all the weapons to win, so placing a penalty on saber use is unnecessary.

that's all i have to say about that...

shock ~ unnamed
04-05-2003, 10:40 PM
Originally posted by DSbr-matt
ya that might be a good idea. maybe, like a gun, push/pull could shoot some sort of magical force projectile where you would have to hit the target for it to work.

I think that would be called L.A.P.D tazer power.


But simply having your push/pull key not even function unless the cross hair is lit (think grip) would eliminate a lot of the retards who just stand there mashing the Hell out of it.

Sure you could still mash the keys but it won’t fire off 5 pulls in a row rapidly unless you are able to track the guy with your cross hair as he moves, and how many noobies can do that?

A closer range system would also help.

If you had to actually get within level 3 drain/lightning range (around 10 feet out max) maps like ctf_ns_streets would not be an issue for pull/push whoring.

Sure you could still send a guy over the edge but not unless you got pretty damn close.

Aoshi
04-05-2003, 11:01 PM
Nice post Shaft and i agree wholeheartedly. I would LOVE to use my saber as more than a shield. Mindtricking a flag carrier then sneaking up on him and sabering him would be complete and utter ownage, but in order to do this the saber needs to be what it is: a glowing sword of pure energy. You dont get hit by a huge blade of energy and then get hit again and again... and again... and oops again. This change would be for the better in both CTF, Duel and any other SO gametypes. Instead of running around swinging madly people would then have to time their attacks, dodge, feign attacks, retreat and fake advance. In all, duels would be strategic manipulation JUST LIKE SWORDFIGHTING ACTUALLY IS. In kenjutsu one strike kills. That is the nature of the sword. The sword is meant to deliver one blow and all swordart is centered around being able to deliver that blow. You dont try to hit an opponent 5 times in real sword fighting because after 1 hit (if you're any good) they should be dead.

This brings me to another point. Add in buttons for faking. What i mean by this is add in a button that gives a quick animation such as a quick sidestep and then back to original position. This would really be good in duels if implemented correctly as you could then fake out your opponent and strike him when he's least ready or when he has exposed a weak spot.

Also another suggestion i would make is to have SEPARATE force powers for dueling and then for CTF/FFA. This would make dueling a completely independant aspect of JA and would force duelist to go to duel servers. Forces like this could be such things as "Force Illusion" where multiple copies of your player are produced but vanish when you strike. "Force Boost" where you gain a tremendous boost in speed for 1-2 seconds. "Force Stun" where you can momentarily stun your opponent and force his guard down. "Force Distortion" where you create a gravity field using the force and thus exert a slight pull towards a certain point on the map for a period of 5 or so seconds. Also "Force Blind" could be brought back as a duel only force and other things such as this that would greatly improve the strategic element of dueling. Also for the duel forces i would suggest taking out pull/push as they lead to quirky little bugs like pullthrow (which i dont really care about but if saber throw did as much damage as it should would be too much of an advantage)

This leads to my next suggestion. upping the damage of saber throw significantly... I mean to like 75-90 damage significance. Also if pull/push is taken out of dueling the speed of saber throw should also be improved. This would be a BIG equalizer between gunners and saberists as 2 well placed throws would kill a gunner.

One final suggestion is this. If force lightning makes a reappearance have it so that the central area of level 3 lightning does tremendous amounts of damage(like 2-3x as much as it does now). What i mean by central area is the area that lightning would affect with level 2 lightning. Then the periphery lightning could remain the same damage and that would be like splash damage. If this were implemented, people would have to AIM their lightning instead of just spam it and upper level players could use it to actually kill people and it would be infinitely more useful.

In conclusion I am all for the betterment of both sides of the arguement. I want to see duel become a great gametype that even gunners will want to play from time to time and similarly I want to see sabers be used in CTF games as something other than a shield. I also would like for duelists to go to their own servers and having independant forces for dueling would drastically influence this. I really hope Raven listens to us.

Doctor Shaft
04-06-2003, 12:43 AM
Well, at this point it seems that the Raven people are putting in a few saber 'gimics' already.

You'd think we'd just get a double staff, but you can apparently switch one blade off and use it. You can wield two sabers and throw one at people. Yada yada. Saber combat seems to be getting heavy.

I just hope the saber battle times won't be getting heavy either. That kind of stuff should be reserved for someone's personal duel server. Otherwise, hopefully everything is fast and brutal. I'd hate to see JA turn into the mighty lightsaber fest. It would be really cool for about two days, then kind of get stale.

SuperSon!c
04-06-2003, 03:50 AM
Originally posted by Aoshi
The sword is meant to deliver one blow and all swordart is centered around being able to deliver that blow. You dont try to hit an opponent 5 times in real sword fighting because after 1 hit (if you're any good) they should be dead.


I agree with this definatly in the movies the saber is a 1 hit kil kind thing. What Raven could do is that maybe in a duel mode that if you hit the arm you can't us that arm anymore or chop off a leg you would have to hop round on one leg i think this would make things more interesting.

.:Solusar:.
04-06-2003, 04:10 AM
Originally posted by SuperSon!c
I agree with this definatly in the movies the saber is a 1 hit kil kind thing. What Raven could do is that maybe in a duel mode that if you hit the arm you can't us that arm anymore or chop off a leg you would have to hop round on one leg i think this would make things more interesting.

Thats a good thought.. also it would be kinda funny whatching a person jump up and down fighting. but wouldn't that be kinda dumb?

Agen
04-06-2003, 08:34 AM
Anyone who wants to be part of live discussion for the GSD tomorrow please join #JK3 on quakenet, no arranged time as of yet. The GSD topics have been set, I've written well into 4 pages of details in my notebook.

Crap, looks like i'm probably not gonna make the chat unless it's 7-10ish GMT :(

I agree with this definatly in the movies the saber is a 1 hit kil kind thing. What Raven could do is that maybe in a duel mode that if you hit the arm you can't us that arm anymore or chop off a leg you would have to hop round on one leg i think this would make things more interesting.

Well instead of hopping around and having dead limbs how about, if you get hit in the arm, you don't hurt them as much when you swing (even though it doesn't really make sense because of the way the saber is) and you move slower if you get hit in the leg.

Having to use the crosshair with Push 'n' pull is a good idea, so you actually need a bit of aiming skill rather than pointing in their direction to throw them off a cliff.

DSbrLogan
04-06-2003, 08:46 AM
there was a character in jk1 that didnt have any legs

Hekx
04-06-2003, 08:47 AM
Originally posted by DSbrLogan
there was a character in jk1 that didnt have any legs Maw.

http://www.gamingfiles.com/screenshots/7/files/3961.jpg

HertogJan
04-06-2003, 09:18 AM
I agree that pull/push should be restricted to one enemy, and only works when your crosshair is over them. In MP at least, please not in SP, because I like to jump in the air and pull a small team of stormies up in the air.

Of course, when they've reached some height, they will fall down and break bones they've never even heard of :D :trooper:

Agen
04-06-2003, 09:32 AM
Yeh, push was fine in Sp, i think it should be kept the same in there.

P4ulo
04-06-2003, 10:29 AM
Necro, u forgot the:
-possibility of doing rewind/forward/pause and change POV on recorded demos which was/is already in Q3 engine.
-(ctf mod) The team player / flag carrier location which also can be done by editing the maps.
- Better even maps for TDM with good weapons and shield points rather than two shields/rocket on a side and only a repeater on the other side.
- Better even maps for ctf, maybe less pits, and more than 4, maps even old games had more than 10 maps for each mod.
- If possible, after the game release somewhere/someway where we can post the bugs and expect some feedback/a patch to solve it. (which didnt happen with the rocket exploit)
- Possibility to add our own head photo to the model would be something funny to say the least or some piece of software (model editor) EASY to use to make something with our own faces like bitterman in q3 for example (i dont think its actually possible but sure would be funny) -> something like this but easier to use http://www.clanbeowulf.org/skinyourface.htm

PetR-
04-06-2003, 10:29 AM
The setup for MotS's push was cool, if anything make it like that for sp.

Although im not an sp fan.

alarm
04-06-2003, 11:06 AM
I dont remember who mentioned the assists idea, but I want that too.

DeTRiTiC-iQ
04-06-2003, 11:10 AM
No comments on my suggestion? :(

boinga1
04-06-2003, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by PetR-
The setup for MotS's push was cool, if anything make it like that for sp.


NO NO NO NO NO!!! AUGH!! MoTS forces were primitive- it's highly unlikely that you can push a person back 15 feet and have them not even fall. besides, the "lock-on" forces from JK and MoTS are just....slow and archaic.

Break_dF
04-06-2003, 11:39 AM
Detriq:

Your suggestion would be fine for guns/ctf but useless for saber only ff servers. We need a force set-up that's all-around good for game balance. If the pull or push increased exponentially as time increased, I could see it working; however, there would have to be some way of countering.... hell, push should negate pull; pull should negate push (depending on how well the aim was of course). What I really like is the so-called implementation of multiple force use... can you imagine the combo/exploit/bug possibilities? They could be endless.

contender
04-06-2003, 12:01 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't GHOUL2 specifically designed for damage modelling and calculation, and placing where your shots land? I remember reading about how great SoFII was going to be because of how accurate GHOUL2 modelled the damage. How is GHOUL implemented in Jk2 (as I beleive GHOUL is in Jk2, and it allows for dismemberment)? I mean you can kill someone with a disruptor shot to the foot. More advanced damage calculations and modelling would add that degree of attainable skill level we were discussing earlier. Something similar to what exists in Counter Strike.

contender
04-06-2003, 12:29 PM
Something that could be very useful

Originally posted by RambOrc
in RavenForums
This is not the official Raven Software board, just as RavenGames is no official Raven Software site. What I can offer you people though is that if you collect important requests/questions into one text file and mail it to me, I'll then post it here as a closed thread (no more postings from users into it) and try to get someone from Raven Software to answer it publicly.

URL is http://www.ravenforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=1681

This would be where you should send the document

P4ulo
04-06-2003, 01:04 PM
No one here is discussing about having the saber or not, i think everyone agrees with the saber staying, but its about turning the game into an rpg instead of an fps, no one wants that after so many titles...
That sounds good contender.
We should check every post on this thread and discuss it, and i mean every single one so nothing important escapes that document.
Thats why i asked for a poll, i think a poll with every single idea on this thread would help sorting out whats important and not

nova_wolf
04-06-2003, 03:06 PM
Dont think we need to harass Raven at this point... Last thing we want is to interrupt their conecntration on this project... Delays will be bitched about, but they would be our faults....

Besides, the modding community will be there like a shot.

For instance, it would be nice to have saber style where by you fight with a single saber with two hand with noraml set of attacks and abilities, but if you wanted, can do a Mara and use you saber in one hand whilst you use a pistol in the other. Can then use the odd basic slash attack with your saber for primary fire, fire a shot from the blaster with secondary fire, and still be able to deflect shots (although slighlty less well, and not reflect - trade off)

Would be an awesome style to play around with for the scoundrels and trigger happy amongst us, but Raven will be too occupied. The modders could hopefully find the idea intriguing and do it.

(But if Raven could add it.... SWEEEEET ;) )

Necrosis
04-06-2003, 03:21 PM
Hmm, not sure how well being able to have a saber in 1 hand and a pistol in the other would work. There would have to be some disadvantages to doing that, maybe less accurate blocking, or less accuracy in the gun. Otherwise everyone would be running around with a saber and gun in hand, and I just can't picture that.

nova_wolf
04-06-2003, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by Necrosis
Hmm, not sure how well being able to have a saber in 1 hand and a pistol in the other would work. There would have to be some disadvantages to doing that, maybe less accurate blocking, or less accuracy in the gun. Otherwise everyone would be running around with a saber and gun in hand, and I just can't picture that.

I covered that. But yeah - as you said. Blocking would not be so great, and you could only deflect, not reflect shots (if you see what I mean, and you would only be able to fire single shots - not charge shots. Your speed would be increased, but less power in any saber stike.

I would be for against non-Force / Saber wielding opponents at medium to close range.

Would look cool too! :cool:

WD_ToRMeNt
04-06-2003, 04:31 PM
About push/pull and grip, I'd much rather have it as a targeted reticle as in JK1. You held down the button, got a lock, then released it to activate the power. This would get rid of the button mashing. One of the elite skills in JK1 was the ability to know the grip reticle and cone so well that you didnt have to see the red circle to grip some one.

Another thing that disappointed me about jk2 pull was that you couldn't use it to get items faster like you could in jk1. Part of moving fast in JK1 was using pull to grab items faster so you could cover a lot more ground. Pulling items so your opponent couldn't use them was also vital to a battle between elites. Let push/pull be able to target items and if i pull something it should come right to me.

Force seeing needs to be totally redone to be more like JK1, that is there needs to be an overhead map as well.

Mana should regenerate even if I am using force.

At the highest jedi rank, I should be able to maintain speed and seeing and still have enough mana for grips and jumps.

Force jump should be much faster and more agressive and take less mana.

Force speed should be must faster and yet easier to control; no slipping around and get rid of that stupid blur.

I would much perfer JK1 style grip where I could move around but my opponent would be immobalized.

As for the saber, well I'll always be limited compared to guns in FF Guns and CTF, but that's ok. Just have it do massive damage like 2nd swing in JK1.

Oh yeah, bring back destruction and force boosts and surges the way we had them in JK1. Also, give us more ammo and weapons that don't suck please.

JK2 MP is dead after a year, JK1 MP is still alive after 6 years. Get a clue.

WD_ToRMeNt
04-06-2003, 04:43 PM
One more thing, they'll have to do better the just making star wars maps that are just rooms connected by hallways and elevators. Study oasis and BGJ. They are open and still 3 dimensional and designed in a way that encourages fast and trick movement.

Zodiac
04-06-2003, 05:05 PM
Torment has some good points there. What I also noticed about Torment's post was that he really used the word 'fast' a lot. I agree with him on that. The overall gameplay feel must be faster than it is right now. Speed is an easy, but great way to heighten your adrenaline and to increase the fun of the gameplay.

WD_ToRMeNt
04-06-2003, 05:17 PM
Thanks Zodiac. You're right, the speed of JK1 was faster then any game made before or since. Doing trick jumps while moving at force speed 4, watching the map, and thinking about controling items/countinig the surge PLUS trying to out think your opponent at the same time is what gave JK1 such an extreme learning curve, replayability, and level of excitement and feeling of accomplishment.

Another thing about the maps, the two most highly played maps had nothing to do with any SWs book or movie, had lots of ammo and power ups, and were open and not just a series of rooms, hallways and lifts. They encouraged the type of play I'm talking about.

Saber gimmics and cute little moves and double sabers might attract some people, but it won't make them stay long. Real gamers don't give a crap. We want GAME PLAY not cute little gimmics. Jk's graphics are horrible, yet I'd still rather play it then JK2.

GET A CLUE!

Agen
04-06-2003, 05:28 PM
Torment has some great points there, JK2 was slow compared to jk1, you had to be quick on your feet while your opponent was doing the same.

Force seeing needs to be totally redone to be more like JK1, that is there needs to be an overhead map as well.
Raven said they couldn't do it because of the way the Q3 engine is, there's no overhead map in it but it should be implemented IMO.

Also that move in jk2 where you right clicked and it would do that huge move that did 98 damage, should perhaps be put back in as an option bewcause, it really made people careful and caused some good movement. Maybe it sohuld be as high dmaage but it made jk saber fighting click.

SPY_jmr1
04-06-2003, 05:52 PM
thread stuck due to popular request.

please direct all future suggestions into this thread. thanks. :)

MotS
04-06-2003, 06:28 PM
I couldnt possibly agree more about the speed issue. probably the most annoying thing about Jedi Outcast for me was the very slow movement speed, and i mean running and strafing speed here, not strafe jumping speed. in JK it is possible to have force speed on all the time since it doesnt take much mana and this makes the game almost uncontrollably fast, which is fun. and weapons should also be more like concussion rifle, which basically has rocket launcher and railgun combined into one weapon with very fast speed for the "rocket" (primary fire) but also very slow reload rate which makes it difficult to learn. and although primary fire of conc rifle has very fast speed, if players move fast its just a good thing.

DeTRiTiC-iQ
04-06-2003, 07:45 PM
http://www.warwick.ac.uk/~csuccf/pullpush/pull.htm

elaboration of my idea.

SuperSon!c
04-06-2003, 09:24 PM
I think that they should add a gun duel mode different from the regular deul mode with larger maps than duel maps and populated with weapons and ammo but no heath or sheilds.

Hekx
04-06-2003, 09:37 PM
Team Dual gametype. ;)
Aswell as a few co-op mission type ideas.

legameboy
04-06-2003, 10:29 PM
they need to make the guns more like guns, the guns in jk2 "felt" fake

The Truthful Liar
04-06-2003, 10:47 PM
Originally posted by legameboy
they need to make the guns more like guns, the guns in jk2 "felt" fake

Expand (and I mean heavily) on that point please. :-) GSD is now almost finished and will ready for proofreading by a select few.

SiN000
04-06-2003, 11:15 PM
id just like to say that the only reason i play jk2 multiplayer is for the sabers. see, im a pretty hardcore fps player, but ive played SO many FPS's that all feel the same ... u get sick of it after a while. which is why im hooked onto jk2 ... its unique : force powers and sabers make a HUGE difference.

also, it would be really cool if Raven added a built-in teamspeak. i hate playing games online because i feel like im playing a bunch of bots ... nobody talks , because nobody CAN talk ... and typing out messages arnt the same. i hate consoles as much as most hardcore pc gamers do, but i had sooo much fun playing on xbox live simply because i could yell at my team, and basically socialize. thats why whenever i play jk2 , i play it w/ friends , and with teamspeak.

thats my 2 cents :)

SiN

WD_ToRMeNt
04-07-2003, 12:12 AM
Wrong. The reason I played JK was the force powers. UT/Q3 can't match the gameplay of JK1 FF guns or sabers.

joesdomain
04-07-2003, 12:19 AM
The stormtrooper gun was mentioned somewhere I think on the official website. Don't quote me on that. :vsd: :trooper:

Taos
04-07-2003, 12:33 AM
Guys please...this thread was stickied so that people could offer their constructive ideas for the gameplay of this new game. There are plenty of other threads to debate the differences between games in this series. So use those please. :)

WD_ToRMeNt
04-07-2003, 01:22 AM
Most of the real gamers (which Raven should have listened to in the first place with JK2) have put there advice in. We don't need fan boys posting with requests for *insert something stupid here*.

Raven can 1) Ignore the fanboys and listen to the real gamers and make a good game, 2) Try to make a game with lots of gimmicks that looks good but is in reality a piece of crap like JK2.

Disagree? Get online and notice that for every JK2 server that has 3-4 players, there are 10 or so empty ones and this is during peak time! Take a look at the majors ladders, JK2 is dead. JK1 lasted 5 years and is still active. Get a clue.

I have a little something to add though. In jk1, holding down the strafe button made your run a little faster. Also, turning moving up in the air tended to make you jump higher (that's how I got on top of the ship in BGJ w/o having to use the cliffs). Yeah you had to learn to run at an angle, but that's just one of the things that made JK1 so fast and interesting. I'd like to see this coded into JK3/JA.

People tried to flame me for wanting JK2 to be more like JK1, but look at the state of JK2 right now. Going back to JK style is a good idea.

Speed up the game, make the weapons and forces better, have plenty of ammo and power ups on the map, look at bgj and oaisis for map inspiration, study JK and try to use what made JK last 5+ years in JK3/JA.

DSbr-HaZe
04-07-2003, 02:04 AM
i think what logan is trying to do is get the point across to Raven that we aren't mindless babies just whining about some aspect of the game which someone else understands(as the herd of saberists in this game have done time and time again). The fact is, sabers and guns WERE separate in jk2, it was the idiot saberists on the guns servers who didn't realize they could simply join a sabers only server.

Making sabers and guns both equally useful really won't change anything. I seriously would have to agree with going back to the basics of Dark Forces 2 from both perspectives. Destruction was the greatest force power :P and how about at the very least requiring targeting reticles for push/pull(which really should only pull the weapon if absorb is off)/grip. The sabers and guns communities were fairly separated but the game was great in both areas. FF Sabers is a waste of time in jk2, which I was seriously looking forward to playing. Dark Force should go back to doing what it did best, tons of damage(DESTRUCTION, or a useful grip).

I would also agree that the guns need a lot of work. Something extremely basic: have the guns only take 1 ammo per shot, with the exception of the repeater this should seriously be considered.

How about some weapon balance as well.

Ammo wise, its ridiculous that you can't kill a person with a gun youve picked up (golan/repeater) unless you hit them with 3 or 4 of the 6 whole shots your allowed. The rocket launcher itself: 3 shots? Come on.....

I was looking forward to jk2 because I was hoping for a jk1 without the hacks and with some updated guns/force powers. The game just had too many problems and the ridiculous community of whining saberists made it pathetic. As it is I won't buy jk3 until its been confirmed that it isn't complete crap.

joesdomain
04-07-2003, 02:12 AM
I agree! Too many people complaining about light sabers and wanting a light saber. I personally liked all the other weapons and the light saber at the same time. Then you have all the EU people wanting stupid things like Vong when the Timeline for Jedi Academy is right after Jedi Outcast. Jedi Outcast ended after 12 years after battle of endor. I think! Empire is still out there. They should definitely be included in the game. I also don't like the idea of just fighting rogue jedi, dark jedi, sith, reborn, or whatever force welding person you have to face. You need other star wars villians like bounty hunters, rancors, other star wars creatures, stormtroopers, imperial officers, probe dorids, maybe AT-ST or a AT-AT or something like that. The Hutt's should be in there. There is more than just Jabba the Hutt out in the Galaxy.

Matariel
04-07-2003, 02:23 AM
i posted some ideas in the other thread before this one was started up, so i'll put em up again here for everyone to discuss...

Saber Combat: Blocking moves must be done with a direction, ie. if you're being attacked from the left, you must press BLOCK+LEFT to move the saber to that side. Obviously blocking lasers etc will still be automatic, but blocking sabres will be manual. Or a slightly different system, blocks are made automatically for a saber hit, but unless the player does the BLOCK+<DIRECTION> keypress, you still get some damage, or you get pushed back.

NOTE: Changing between blocking and attacking moves doesnt require a toggle (like changing stances) just a holding down of a key (ALT would be my first choice) Jolts provided a short list of key commands that would fit this, i'll just modify them slightly:
Offensive mode
LMB - swing left
RMB - swing right
MMB - swing top to bottom
V - switch swing styles
Defensive mode
+ALT - Make the move Defensive (a press and hold deal)
LMB - Block left
RMB - block right
MMB - block center
V - switch block styles

These are just my personal preferences

Saber Locks: Saber locks too were a click-fest in MP, whoever had the better mouse won Make some 'escape' moves for the lock...an offensive move, like a puch/kick, or a force move, where you attempt to do damage to the other player. Some risk is involved with the offensive move though, if you miss or stuff it up, it'll leave you vunerable. A defensive move would include a force-push and jump backwards or something like that. No chance of doing damage to the other player, but it'll allow a better position to make the next attack.

Guns: If this game is going to be totally jedi orientated, there should be much use for gun should there? but the Raven people said there will be more guns than JK2. So, situations where a Jedi in training might use a gun? Broken/Lost lightsaber, after the Jedi has been captured, gun specific tasks (like shooting a button or something, or blowing a hole in a wall) A Jedi is taught to use everything at his disposal, even guns.

NOTE: this is just a cut and paste deal from my other post, but just to clarify, i like the idea of guns in the game, but you'll have the saber most of the time, so make saber combat a game of skill, not a test of how nuts you can go with the clicking, or how many sneaky stupid moves you can think of. And dont think that pull-backstab is a 'skill', its good that they took it out/made it harder to perform, because there is NO WAY to escape it, and it was too easy to pull off...

now, LET THE FLAMES COME!! :)
just kidding, i can take abuse from no skill sabre wielders

Luc Solar
04-07-2003, 05:53 AM
I'm starting to dislike the vibe I'm getting from the posts of competetive players.

It seems to me that you're hoping for a extremely fast paced Quake-clone. A strafe jumping rage-speeder too slow for you? :confused: Honestly??

The maps in JO have powerups littered all over the place. You can barely take two steps (or hops) without stepping on one! More powerups, you say? I'd say you should get rid of 'em altogether, especially if sabers aren't buffed up significantly.

The picture I'm getting from a lot of pro-players posts is a frantic insanely fast paced fragfest where you'd never have to let go of the trigger, because the maps are covered with ammo, shields and medpacks.

I'd love to say "Go play Quake", but I won't. :p

Seriously, let's not wish for a force-boosted Quake. That would be a waste.

EDIT: btw - have you guys ever tried to play Instagib on map Raven with lvl3 speed? If not, you should. :D

Zodiac
04-07-2003, 06:29 AM
The picture I'm getting from a lot of pro-players posts is a frantic insanely fast paced fragfest where you'd never have to let go of the trigger, because the maps are covered with ammo, shields and medpacks.

Cool, that sounds great fun to me! But this frenzic, high paced action full of fun should not only be for force and guns, but also for no force and sabers.

Gameplay should be fast, frenzic, frantic, fast paced fun for JK. If people want something slow, they should go play an rpg or a strategy game or something.

And strafe jumping was dumb anyways. It might've been fast, but it was totally idiotic to see a player hop like a bunny. Why can't a player just move fast like that without that jumping? If players could run as fast as they could strafe jump, nobody would strafe jump. :)

Luc Solar
04-07-2003, 06:43 AM
Fast yes but fastER??

If there are powers like rage and speed that can even be combined and then the strafe-jumping...do we really need MORE speed? :confused:

WD_ToRMeNt
04-07-2003, 07:30 AM
No, you have NO IDEA what the competative players want. Shut up and listen. We do not want a quake clone, JK2 was just a Q3->JK mod. It sucks. We want gameplay that is more like JK1, which was COMPLETELY different then Q3, UT, or JK2.

PS. Stop spamming the thread with useless suggestions about saber blocking systems, saber this, that and saber blah blah blah. The competative players don't care, Raven isn't going to implement it.

P4ulo
04-07-2003, 07:33 AM
Yep i think tormentor said it all

WD_ToRMeNt
04-07-2003, 07:50 AM
Another thing, Force Rage is something I'd like to see go away. Drain is prolly the same way since it's impossible to balance, either too powerful or too weak and It would be extremely unbalancing with JK1 styles surge and boosts.

The best thing for Raven/LEC to do would be to forget all the JK2 stuff and work to make JK3/JA an enhanced, expanded and improved sequal to JK1.

Luc Solar
04-07-2003, 08:00 AM
Is there a single competetive player out there who does not tell everyone to shut up or STFU or STFD? It's getting a bit old, if you ask me.

Anyways, that is the picture I got from some of the posts here. >> "Unlimited ammo! More medkits and shields! More speed!"

I don't agree. The speed you get from strafe jumping is just fine. Hell, people are practically flying around the maps as it is even without rage and/or speed.

I have not addressed the JK1-issue. I didn't play MP a lot those days. (Playing with a 28.8 modem is not exactly my idea of fun.)

You want JA to be like JK1? Fine. But why? Because you know all the l337 tricks already?

turning moving up in the air tended to make you jump higher

Why the hell would you want to have that? Because it's a cool trick that you master and can thus "pwn" n00bs? Why on earth should turning while jumping make you go higher? That's just silly. :disaprove


...but whatever. I don't use JK1 as an example because I didn't play it enough to know what it was all about. I'm sure it had good things in it, but making JA just like JK1 simply because competetive gamers want to continue to use their good old tricks is kinda lame.

Imho JA should not have any of these tricks that make no sense. I know you competetive guys love 'em, but to a casual player it just seems silly. I want aim, dexterity, you know, "mad skillz" to be decisive, not knowledge of some bug or exploit in a map or a gun.

Take the homing rockets-exploit for example. How much sense does that make? You switch to the saber and back and voilá: for some reason the rocket launcher only uses 1 ammo and homes in on the target (with twice the agility & speed) even though you didn't get a lock on him? :confused:

Get rid of these things in JA, please.

WD_ToRMeNt
04-07-2003, 08:15 AM
Bug's are one thing, engine physics is another. Ever play Tribes? Skiing was a "bug" in Tribes 1, but the players liked it so much that it was intentionaly coded into Tribes 2. Sometimes physics exploits are a good thing, I'd love to see strafe running in JK3/JA.

No, we arn't asking for unlimited anything, we just want to be able to play without wasting most of our time hunting for ammo. And yes, it is rediculous when I have to hit with every one of the 4 or 6 shots I have when I pick up a gun to kill one guy.

The people who say "go play quake" are clueless, they don't realize that JK1 FF was NOTHING like quake. JK2 is much more like quake, but we don't want quake/J2. JK1 gameplay is in a class all it's own.

Jolts
04-07-2003, 08:20 AM
The best thing for raven/lec to do is to make the game in their vision and to never take any suggestions from any post on any forum. Do you think raven/lec cares how many hours of jk1/jo you played? do you think they cares about your solo opinion or that of the jk1 old school never try anything new crew? Do you really think JKA has 1 chance in hell of actually lasting longer than jo as a popular online game? All that matters is that you people get hyped up enough to buy the game, after that who cares, next project.

WD_ToRMeNt
04-07-2003, 08:25 AM
They should care. Many (as in thousands) of people are not happy about how JK2 turned out. Also, the longer a game lives online, the more copies of the game they will sell in the long run. They have every reason to care and listen to us.

Jolts
04-07-2003, 08:28 AM
LEC has enough backing to not depend on JO or JKA lasting a long time, they make more money on it not lasting long and dishing out quick rehashes of it at full price anyways. A small game company that puts out 1 game every 2-3 years needs success, not a publishing house like lec.

WD_ToRMeNt
04-07-2003, 08:32 AM
The whole point of making a game is to make money, it's much easier to make one good game and make good returns then to make a dozen and barely recover expenses.

Ronin_Medjai
04-07-2003, 08:37 AM
How about making the game require some actual skill. In JKO You have a semihuge reticle and where ur reticle is is where ur gun goes. How about trying to add REcoil or "kick" that a real gun would have...even watch the SW movies the Blasters had a kick. Dont make the Game where you can Run 40 MPH Shooting a Rocket Launcher and it not effect you at all. CS made REcoil for guns and thats what made it so fun....you actually had to Practice to get better and the noobs were sperated from the 'l337' or whatever. I mean seriously JKO is too Predictable and it doesnt really invovle any Teamwork type elements at all...try to make it so that "strength in numbers" is a true factor.

This would incourage teamwork instead of -fly around map rockets and flecheets a blazing and other crap- Dont try to turn this into a Fragfest Remeber this thread is about Gameply inclkude some in your game and you might get Loyal Customers dont make a FragFest Game make Good Strategies and skill a part of JKO...

Luc Solar
04-07-2003, 08:38 AM
Originally posted by WD_ToRMeNt
Sometimes physics exploits are a good thing, I'd love to see strafe running in JK3/JA.

No, we arn't asking for unlimited anything, we just want to be able to play without wasting most of our time hunting for ammo. And yes, it is rediculous when I have to hit with every one of the 4 or 6 shots I have when I pick up a gun to kill one guy.


Agreed. Although I don't really see a big problem with ammo being scarce except for the rocket launcher (3!?). A slight fix might be in order though. (depends much on how many guns use the same sort of ammo)

I wouldn't mind easy-to-use server side options on this either. (what guns/ammo/powerups etc. will spawn on the map)

The Truthful Liar
04-07-2003, 08:45 AM
Originally posted by Jolts
The best thing for raven/lec to do is to make the game in their vision and to never take any suggestions from any post on any forum. Do you think raven/lec cares how many hours of jk1/jo you played? do you think they cares about your solo opinion or that of the jk1 old school never try anything new crew? Do you really think JKA has 1 chance in hell of actually lasting longer than jo as a popular online game? All that matters is that you people get hyped up enough to buy the game, after that who cares, next project.

Well if that's the case then, I won't be very hyped frankly. Also this document's entire existence is not to create a Q3 game/mod/clone but to fix the gameplay issues which were left in JK2 and make certain that Raven doesn't make the same mistake twice. Of course you can argue "Well how do you even know what they will or won't use?".

Raven has stated that they will be using the same weapons and forces from JK2 yet they plan to modify them and add some new guns/powers. We can only expect to see the same thing for the original weapons and to analyze newer ones through beta testing.

GD: What's left to do?

JZ: What's not left to do? Let's see. The story is done. The levels are in place. Most of the characters are done. Saber combat is far along.

GF: We're at the stage now where we can really begin to polish, refine, and put in scripted events. The framework is in place and now we can put in some exciting gameplay.

Gameplay - is the key, and ToRMeNt certainly had many interesting points which provided a good read. However, requesting (some major) coding and re-work to the game's physics is basically asking for a new game (which sounds highly similar to a JK1 rather trying to take a step in the right direction; JK3) is to much to ask (except for the speed, I'll take this into consideration for writing and discussing it later). We're mainly (at this point) trying to address the points which we've experienced in JK2 and improve on them.

happydan: That was a personal and unhelpful post which had nothing to do with the topic at hand, don't expect to see it remain here for long. You've been warned, I don't recommend posting in this thread again unless you have beneficial suggestions regarding certain topics/subjects we've layed out.

WD_ToRMeNt
04-07-2003, 08:50 AM
News flash...

You are NOT a jedi. You are playing a GAME. It's not a movie, it's not a book, and yes, I'll be the first to say that being good at a game amounts to nothing in real life.

Yeah, if you want to play jedi then fine, just don't complain when I put a rocket in your face.

The JK series is a FPS, not a RPG. Get over it.

There is no possible way to balance sabers and guns, get any notion of balance out of your heads. A splash damage weapon will always be better then a saber.

People who like guns will not go away to play something else, JK forces offers something that no other game has. I'm willing to live and let live, you can have your saber servers, but let us have our servers were we can use whatever weapon we want.

Read my words, understand them when you grow a brain cell.

WD_ToRMeNt
04-07-2003, 08:58 AM
Thanks Legion, reminding people of what made JK1 good and the problems of JK2 is why I'm posting here. I'm trying not to flame and stay contructive here but...

I'm hearing the same kinds of things on these boards when Jk2 was being developed, and look how that turned out. Will no one learn?

Zodiac
04-07-2003, 09:17 AM
The speed you get from strafe jumping is just fine.

Perhaps it is fine, but strafe jumping = Quake. And that's not what I want JKA to be.
People strafe jump to be faster and they strafe jump because the overall movement was too slow. Now what if they can manage to be as fast as strafe jumping, without strafe jumping (eg. going as fast by just running). People wouldn't strafe jump if that was the case. That's actually pretty logical lol.
I think removing strafe jumping and making the overall movement faster would be a good way to remove it. It would also be a better sight to not see everyone hopping around.

And when fast, speedy movement would be a normal thing, combined with speed/rage it would be even cooler.

WD_ToRMeNt
04-07-2003, 09:21 AM
I'd like to get rid of Rage and just have force speed move as fast as it did in JK1. Yeah, the bunny hop always did look stupid :P

Crowy
04-07-2003, 09:27 AM
if i remember rightly one jedi actually had a lightsaber whip thingy... now that would be a cool addition to the game :D

WD_ToRMeNt
04-07-2003, 09:29 AM
*Looks at the above posts and sighs*

Zodiac
04-07-2003, 09:29 AM
And I don't think 'the competitive players' or 'oldschoolers' like Torment want JKA to be exactly like JK1. Otherwise he would've also mentioned the crappy stuff about JK1, like the lag, JK1's force_lightning or force_protection, etc

He's just pointing out the good points about JK1's MultiPlayer. Those points he mentioned are some of the main reasons why JK1 was such a success. I think those good points should be the basics for any future JK game.

It's so simple:
You have a good game, with great and succesfull things in it(=JK1). So just 'copy' the good things that made the game so successfull, add other things that are even cooler or just as cool, and voila: a game that's even better than JK1.

And a game better than JK1 = success = lots of players = large community = money for Raven and LEC = orgasmes.

I mean, just look at the future plans for CS's sequel. They're using the basic fundamentals of the original CS, because CS was such success, then just add other cool stuff that'd make the game even more fun. They're not using an entirely new game, they just get rid of the stuff that was bad, reuse the stuff that was good, and then add stuff that might make it better. And that's how any future JK game should be. They're all 'sequels'. They should all 'learn' from eachother. JK2, sadly enough, didn't 'learn' anything from JK1.

Crowy
04-07-2003, 09:32 AM
what was wrong with my suggestion WD_ToRMeNt?

WD_ToRMeNt
04-07-2003, 09:36 AM
Exactly. Jk was awsome, but it had it's flaws.

- PtP net code sucks
- Poor official support, the community did all the work
- It was laughingly easy to cheat.
- A few of the force powers were pointless
- Only 2 decent maps; BGJ and Oasis

So yes, keep with what worked in JK1, fix the problems above, and add extra content that enhances the game, not junk that just looks good.

WD_ToRMeNt
04-07-2003, 09:39 AM
Sorry Crowy, I was a bit cruel but... please read the entire thread before posting. We're talking about serious fixes for JK2's broken MP. Suggesting things in the fringes that raven won't implement anyway just makes the thread longer, and the topic harder to focus on.

alarm
04-07-2003, 09:43 AM
removing strafe jumping is retarded

SuperSon!c
04-07-2003, 09:49 AM
Originally posted by alarm
removing strafe jumping is retarded

Exactly, Also for you ppl who think guns shouldnt be in it if you ever have watched star wars the movies you would know that all the jedi died form either dark jedi or a guy with a gun.

Zodiac
04-07-2003, 10:06 AM
removing strafe jumping is retarded
Thanks for the very constructive arguments here.

Strafe Jumping is idiotic. It does not belong in a JK -Star Wars related- game, because it's ridiculous for players to hop around like that. It's a 'bug' that was never intended to be in JK2, and it never had the purpose of intentionally adding more fun to the game. Just look at CS, they removed something similar called bunny hopping from that game, because it was just moronic to see Navy Seals hop around like kangaroos. Hopping didn't suit that game-genre, and it definitely doesn't suit the SW-genre.

We could ask: Why do people strafe jump? and the answer would be that it is faster than just running.
People could also answer that it is more fun to play with strafe jumping. But the main (and probably only) point of having more fun with strafe jumping is because of the increased feeling of speed you received from it.
If just running (or running in a special kind of way) would be made faster, or just as fast as strafe jumping, nobody would strafe jump. There's pure logic in that.

HertogJan
04-07-2003, 10:19 AM
Why is everyone saying that the speed should be HIGHER?? C'mon, look at a lightsaber duel from a distance, it looks rediculous! Partly because you either
- hack 'n slash like a madman
- or strike tediously slow

But still, people run around in circles, in pretty high speeds and c'mon, the speed for running backwards is the same as for running forward?? It really looks insane. Everyone seems to fight like yoda in EPII... That's ok for yoda, not for everyone.

Instead of speeding it up, I'd say that lightsaber battles should be more controllable, instead of random...

Some guys here are preaching 'realism according to the movies', but they only make things faster, and thus more arcade-like... I hate that :mad:

DSbr-HaZe
04-07-2003, 10:23 AM
You guys are missing the point I think:

strafe jumping is part of the quake engine, like it or not, jk2 was made with the quake 3 engine, hence strafe jumping came along with it. JK3 is still using the q3 engine, so it may still be there, it may be removed because of all the whining about speed cheats and the fact that they are heavily modifying the engine.

We don't want to see infinite amounts of ammo, the default is workable but in general its not enough, especially considering you cannot pickup a weapon twice.

As far as faster gameplay, I think the speed is fine, but the weapon balance would also help to add to the overall speed. Its not like we are saying INCREASE FORCE SPEED RATE BY DOUBLE.

As for the arguements of sabers vs. guns, save it for another day, this isn't about that, we all know the title of the game contains JEDI in it, but they wouldn't bother to mention the fact that there are guns in the game if it wasn't appealing to some people as well.

As far as jk1 goes, we are just mentioning that while jk1 had a ton of flaws, its gameplay was great, both sabers and guns, they weren't balanced but both modes (as long as sabers ff) were still fun. And there wasnt this whine fest RPG element to the game (ok there was but it was secluded and ignored). The game is an FPS, like it or not RPGing is not the norm in FPS. SWG will fulfill those fantasies of yours young padawans.

WD_Rage
04-07-2003, 10:26 AM
For JK3, I would like to see a return to the roots of JK game play: JK1. The mechanics and game play of JK1 is, by far, superior to the mechanics and game play of JK2.

How to improve the game:

Reticule for Grip – I love the reticule, it allows for skill to reign supreme in a battle. In JK1, the person with the best grip most likely wins the match. It takes extreme precision to get a good lock and grip on a player.

Pull – Wow. I cannot believe Raven completely overlooked this aspect of the game. JK1 had the ability to pull any object that was useful – weapons, ammo, health, and armor. As long as I was in range, I could get any of these items from a distance. I hardly think a real Jedi would run over a weapon to pick it up. Instead, he would pull it form a distance to get to it sooner. Maybe even using a reticule would balance this power (only one thing to push). Granted, the movies show push as being able to span across many people, but this isn’t a movie.

Seeing – Again, Wow. Seeing had such high potential. I would like to a see a return to JK1 style seeing.

Mana management – Firstly, I hated JK2’s mana management. All powers cost huge amounts of mana; especially neutral powers. Secondly, there was no mana regen during the use of powers. This was essential in JK1. Put the regen back in, as well as drop the mana costs. It is stupid to be able to only use 2 powers at one time. I should be able to use speed + sight, grip people, and jump all at the same time.

Jump – It is way too slow. Speed it up.

Speed – Speed it up. It is entirely too slow.

Saber – Beef up the saber instead of nerfing the guns.

I'll think of more things. Use JK1 as a pattern. It has outlived JK2, and the game has been out for almost 6 years.

Edit:
Heh - Hey, Torm. Didn't see ya there.

Zodiac
04-07-2003, 10:29 AM
I'm not saying everything should be faster. I just want the running forward to be much faster.

And yes, it's ridiculous that running forwards is just as fast as running backwards. And I've seen the duels, even with multiple players, and I don't think people are running in high speed circles. Maybe in circles yes, but not in high speed.

And yes, the saberbattles should be more controllable, instead of random. But they should also be speeded up by the running motions going faster. Speeding things up does not mean less control.

And the guys who are mostly calling for a faster and more fun game are usually the ones who oppose the 'realism according to the movies'-argumentation. They want the game to be based on good, fun, fast, frenzic, exciting, adrenalinerushing gameplay. Not on the movie.

Lightwing
04-07-2003, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by Zodiac
Thanks for the very constructive arguments here.

Strafe Jumping is idiotic. It does not belong in a JK -Star Wars related- game, because it's ridiculous for players to hop around like that. It's a 'bug' that was never intended to be in JK2, and it never had the purpose of intentionally adding more fun to the game. Just look at CS, they removed something similar called bunny hopping from that game, because it was just moronic to see Navy Seals hop around like kangaroos. Hopping didn't suit that game-genre, and it definitely doesn't suit the SW-genre.

We could ask: Why do people strafe jump? and the answer would be that it is faster than just running.
People could also answer that it is more fun to play with strafe jumping. But the main (and probably only) point of having more fun with strafe jumping is because of the increased feeling of speed you received from it.
If just running (or running in a special kind of way) would be made faster, or just as fast as strafe jumping, nobody would strafe jump. There's pure logic in that.

Because it adds an aspect of skill, makes the game more intense and ultimatly entertaining.

It's one of the things that makes jk2 worth playing, removing it would leave us with an incredible dull game.

What you are trying to say is just plain stupid.

Solo4114
04-07-2003, 10:49 AM
Ok, after wading through all 6 pages of this thread, a few things occurred to me.

I think you guys are going to be rather disappointed when JA is released. Look at the title: Jedi Academy. This one's gonna focus on force powers and sabre combat. There will, of course, be guns, but I suspect that a LOT of the game is going to be Jedi oriented. That doesn't mean that making suggestions is a bad idea, but I do think you're going to be disappointed in the end.

For my part, I don't WANT this to be a Quake-like game (yes, I know it's based on the Q3TA engine), where the force powers and sabres are "extra". You can brand me a sabreist, but I like to play something a little different from the slew of other FPS games out there. The force and sabres are what make this game different. If you took them out and just had the guns, it'd be just another quake game with rather mediocre guns.

You CAN balance sabres vs. guns. The ammo consumption thing is just ONE way to do it, not necessarily the best. One of the things implemented in 1.04 that I thought was actually good was the fact that you couldn't run backwards as fast as you could run forwards (at least when holding a gun). That's a step towards balance. You could also do things the way ProMod did it: give the gunners gadget access, but the sabreists force powers. IE: as a gunner, you can use shields, bacta, etc., whereas as a sabreist, you can use force powers. Gunners would not get to use force powers, sabreists would not get to use weapons or gadgets. That seems balanced to me. You can further balance things by making modes like CTF or TDM class-based. You then limit class abilities/weapons/etc. and that helps further balance thigns. HOWEVER, you could conceivably do this for certaing game modes, but leave other game modes more in the "free for all" vein. IE: you do the balancing act in one mode of CTF, or you can play FFACTF (where there are no limits or restrictions on the gear you pick up).

A final balancing act tool would be to make the sabre LETHAL (1 - 2 hits = kill with ANY stance) AND to make it capable of slicing through shields. This would further balance the guns v. force issue. Your sabre blade is unaffecte by shields and simply attacks health (a la kick), whereas guns still need to chip away at the shields. So, sabreists would be deadly at close range and able to close that distance with force powers, but gunners could still take them out from long range (and wouldn't have to worry about shields -- remember, sabreists get no shields).

Regardless, I think that different game modes would be the best way to try to appease everyone. Not everyone is going to want to play a class-based game. Not everyone is going to want to play the free for all style that evokes Quake3 and other similar games. By providing different game modes that are not limited to common weapons/sabre systems (IE: sabres in duel do less damage, or block better, whereas sabres in CTF have almost no blocking of each other, and do lethal damage). Now, whether this is actually possible or not, I have no idea. I'd like to think it is, but it may be impractical for Raven and something that the mod community will have to come up with.

As far as the speed issue goes, I think that many folks complaining about speed would be satisfied if the sabre were actually able to kill quickly. You could still have plenty of blocking, etc., but if you score a hit or two, that's a kill. In the meantime, your stances are simply different ways to get a hit, not stronger or weaker in terms of the damage they deal out. Personally, I don't need this game to be any faster than it is. I'm not looking to play a game where I need to be all hopped up on Chocolate Frosted Sugar Bombs or where I have to have just done an 8-ball in order to play effectively. I don't need to be Speedy Gonzales or The Flash when playing a video game (unless it's a Warner Bros. cartoon game or a superhero game :) ), so I don't really see what the big deal is with speed.

I also don't think that there need be quite such a division between "competitive" gamers and casual gamers. A good game can cater to both. Regardless, perhaps the BEST way to ensure a good game that satisfies most people is to release a free MP demo PRIOR to the release of the game (IE: a good couple of months prior), listen to the complaints, suggestions, etc. of the community, and try to implement them.

WD_ToRMeNt
04-07-2003, 10:53 AM
Hey Rage! Where you been bro? Get on messenger hax0r :P I was going to email you, stop haxing my mind lol. Read the whole thread. Rage, you're going over stuff I've already covered... but go ahead and say it again since people don't like to read what they reply to :rolleyes:

Haze is right, even though I'd like to not see Jedi hopping around like bunnies, it's part of the engine and we'll have to live with it. Let's try to get Raven to fix what they can... Read: Return the gameplay to JK1, deviating so much from a successful game type was a gamble that didn't pay off.

Zodiac
04-07-2003, 10:55 AM
I know strafe jumping is because of the Quake engine, I've played Q3 before JK2, and I do think it's a cool feature to have in Q3 :), because Q3 is futuristic sci-fi without an SW/realistic background. I always thought it was part of my suit and all with jet packs and stuff and the gravity of the maps and things all having a weird effect on how i moved.
But I think it just does not fit in a JK game, because of the SW background. Now I don't know if it's even possible to replace it with an alternative move (that doesn't make the player look like a bunny) in JK3, but I think they can. CS got rid of it (yes, CS = Quake engine too), so why can't JKA? (Now some of you may be thinking, what bs, CS = HL engine. But there was this discussion here on this board, almost a year ago about the same thing and it turned out that CS's bunny hopping had something to do with the Quake-engine it was using.)

Originally posted by Lightwing
Because it adds an aspect of skill, makes the game more intense and ultimatly entertaining.
It adds an aspect of skill? Perhaps it does, but that same aspect of skill can be accomplished by an alternative move. Strafe jumping is basically a repetitive move you do with the mouse and the keyboard. Now there must be a good alternative for that, that doesn't make the Jedi look like a rabbit on xtc. Perhaps running in an alternative way? (the JK1 way?)
You also mention that it makes the game more intense, but you don't tell me why. Is it because of the increased speed you get? Or do you get ultimate entertainment from moving your mouse from side to side and tapping your keyboardkeys? Of course it's just cuz of the speed you get. The 2nd one is just the way to get the desired effect.
the speed-factor is what my entire argumentation was based on and so far I don't see any other reason why strafe jumping would be 'intense' and 'ultimately entertaining'. It's all about going faster, gaining more speed, accelerating.


It's one of the things that makes jk2 worth playing, removing it would leave us with an incredible dull game.
Well yes! but that is because JK2 doesn't have an alternative to getting real fast. JKA could do without strafe jumping if it'd have an alternative.

What you are trying to say is just plain stupid.
I focused on the thing why people were strafe jumping in the first place, and suggested an alternative for getting the same desired effect, so strafe jumping could be removed in JKA. I don't see how thinking of an alternative, and backing it up with some relative logical arguments can be considered stupid. Maybe I'm a bit too demanding for Raven and its crew (maybe they dunno how to remove it), but if they read this post and are able to remove it, they at least have an idea how to replace the kangarooing with a better alternative.

WD_Rage
04-07-2003, 11:19 AM
Solo4114,

What's the difference with names? Jedi Academy has the same game play implications as Jedi Knight or Jedi Knight 2. While much of the SP will be based upon Jedi Training, our gripe is with MP - which we all should know by now that are two entirely different components (hell, even in JK1 SP and MP were different game play wise).

We are not saying we want this game to be Quake-like. We want this game to be better than JK2, and most of our ideas come JK1 - which was the furthest away from Quake-like play. Force and sabers have always set the JK series apart from traditional FPSs. Do not assume we all love guns - I was a FF Saberist in my JK1 days.

Yes, balancing sabers and guns is very possible. However, I believe that Raven chose the worst way of doing it. I found that increasing saber damage eliminates most balancing issues. Look at JK1: A hit with the saber could leave you with only 2 health while starting off with default health/shields. It was deadly, and I know many players that could hold their own in FF Oasis using force and saber. Gunners (yeah, I'm a gunner now because using the saber sucks in JK2) should have access to all force powers. Part of what made JK1 great was the fact that saberist or gunner, you had the same force powers to choose from. It just all came down to preference. Gunners want force too, not a gadget.

As far as the speed issue goes, I think that many folks complaining about speed would be satisfied if the sabre were actually able to kill quickly. You could still have plenty of blocking, etc., but if you score a hit or two, that's a kill.

No, our gripe with speed is the game is too slow, even when force speed is used. Going from one end of Yavin to the other, even with force speed, takes entirely too long. Its boring, dull, and sleep provoking.

Solo4114, let us look at a few things:

1. JK1 is still alive (barely), but even after 2 years the game was still very strong.

2. JK2 is very dead after its first year. The game has lost at least 3/4 of the people that were playing it this time last year, and hardly any new players are coming.

3. There is only a sequel because people many people bought JK2. They're not making this for the droves of people that play it (yeah, that was sarcasm). In order for ANY game in the JK series to survive and be remembered, it must follow the game play (although not exactly - that would be boring) set in JK1.

Hiya, Torm. I've been around. Just getting alot of work done. As for getting on MSN, I can't right now. I'm at the office and the routers and proxy block out access to Messenger. I'll get on around lunch-time, though. Don't you know I always reply without reading what others have said? :p BTW, bow before C# :p.

Necrosis
04-07-2003, 12:07 PM
[Edit Taos - How about we be nice to each other, thanks. :cool:]


Improving the gun games will make alot more people want to play the game (ie. people from quake and cs), thus raven makes more money.

How does the name mean it's going to be ALL out sabers? You'd think Jedi Knight 2 would be like that also by just going by the name.

Sure, SP should probably focus a little more on saber to make the star wars fans happy. But MP must have a solid gun game. Another game like jk2 will make Raven lose the gunners that jk2 in JA.

The biggest problem with jk2 saber battles were how repetitve they all were. You coulden't watch any duel and say "hey that was a sweet move" because everyone does the exact same thing, thus, not making any competition. Adding more combos and stances won't do anything, the same thing will happen. People will find some way to be "cheap", people will complain, and the game dies.


Raven has to make more balance in the gunplay, the only worthwhile gun to pick up when playing vs pros were rockets, repeater, flak (which just got spammed), add more "cool" yet usefull moves and more FREE (no, not like it costs nothing) movement.

Doesn't look like the saber battles are going to be much different in JA than jk3. Same system, just more combos and stances.






:explode:

alarm
04-07-2003, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by Zodiac
I know strafe jumping is because of the Quake engine, I've played Q3 before JK2, and I do think it's a cool feature to have in Q3 :), because Q3 is futuristic sci-fi without an SW/realistic background. I always thought it was part of my suit and all with jet packs and stuff and the gravity of the maps and things all having a weird effect on how i moved.

ahahahahaha, strafe jumping doesnt make sense ANYWHERE(what jet pack?). SW= realistic? rofl

WD_Rage
04-07-2003, 12:26 PM
Strafe Jumping:

JK1 did not have strafe jumping. It wasn't necessary. Force speed was ample to get around a map. Take out strafe jumping and give us good speed.

Agen
04-07-2003, 12:28 PM
Wow, some great posts have been made bringing up some grea posts. Legion, make sure you get most of this stuff in.

The Grip/pull reticule should be brought back rather than jsut facing in their direction to grip em etc. Drain might have been a bad idea on raven part as it is probably really hard to balance.

Also i think that's it's entirely possible to balance the guns and the sabers, if Raven take time to test and test their system, it doesn't have to be terribly different, all it needs is getting it right with trial and error. Beta Testers woudl be a great way to find out.

Like an awful lot of people here i think we need more speed in the game, especially force speed, in jk it was very fast with a giant learning curve which made it fun spending time trying to master it without crushing your nose off the wall and killing yourself. And perhaps strong stance should be an alternate to jk1's secondary saber fire but when you swing you leave yourself a huge gap to be hit in.

yeah, I'm a gunner now because using the saber sucks in JK2

Heh i'm the other way round :) Not because i think gun suck but i knew people who i coulld paly sabs with.

Maybe a manual blocking system is an option too but it's probably far too late to add it in now. in singleplayer any.

WD_Rage
04-07-2003, 12:48 PM
And perhaps strong stance should be an alternate to jk1's secondary saber fire but when you swing you leave yourself a huge gap to be hit in.

Strong stance, though, is extremely, extremely slow. In JK1, the swing really wasn't much slower than the primary swing. The swing itself took longer, but it did not slow down the player.

Matariel
04-07-2003, 12:48 PM
i think you guys are missing the point entirely! ppl saying 'remove strafe jump!', what the hell? are you saying, 'make it physically impossible to jump and move to one side'? thats ludicrous! if i wanted to dodge something, thats the first thing i'd do! apart from cowering behind something large and firmish...And i thought the forward roll was faster moving than that anyway.
Another thing, any saber changes should be about GAME BALANCE, this goes for weapons too. Pull backstab was taken out because it made the game UNBALANCED. It made killing ppl a one shot affair, which is stupid and nothing like how we see jedi fight in the films.
This is what makes a good game, challenging duels, exciting gameplay. Dieing every two seconds is neither.
So, speed up the game? Bugger off. Well, speed up the rate of killings, bugger off. Speed up saber duels, lengthwise, bugger off. Speed up duels, saber movement speed and amount of moves capable in a certain space, hell yeah. Force speed was only cool in SP, because you kept at the same speed while the world slowed around you. In MP its just another all too common 'hack-n-slash' affair.
That is not skilled playing. I want a game that requires real skill, not some cheap way of quickly killing an opponent. I want a challenge in a duel, where you can really test your opponent, not stab him in the face, or kill him with one shot of the red-stance.

contender
04-07-2003, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by Zodiac
Thanks for the very constructive arguments here.

Strafe Jumping is idiotic. It does not belong in a JK -Star Wars related- game, because it's ridiculous for players to hop around like that. It's a 'bug' that was never intended to be in JK2, and it never had the purpose of intentionally adding more fun to the game. Just look at CS, they removed something similar called bunny hopping from that game, because it was just moronic to see Navy Seals hop around like kangaroos. Hopping didn't suit that game-genre, and it definitely doesn't suit the SW-genre.


We could of course go with the really stupid argument here: CS was a realism game, based in modern times. People knew that soldiers don't bounce around. For Jk2, unless I'm mistaken, you or anyone on these forums didn't live 'a long time ago, in a galaxy far far away.' Therefore you don't know what is ridiculous for the Star Wars world.

Seriously though, in my opinion, Strafe Jumping brought one of the only aspects of skill to the game. It was one of the seperating factors in competive play. I used to record demos of old pickup games and the progression of the entire community towards strafe-jumping was amazingly slow. I remember why DSbr was so dominant, especially early on. They could strafe jump, and circle jump, everyone else was 'running' or maybe bunnyhopping the open areas. The first DSbr pickup I went to, I saw speed + rage and the strafe jump, amazingly fast. The gap had drawn closer recently as more players learned to strafe jump, but DSbr still had the advantage of lots of FPS skill.

Strafe jump is no bug, its built into the q3 engine. Remove strafe jumping, and Raven removes one of the few differentiating factors between newbs and experts.

It reminds me of another game you might know of. Day of Defeat, another Half Life MOD. Beta 1.3 of DoD was quite possibly the best game I've ever played. You could outfrag the other team and win, or be smart and win. Individual skill was rewarded. When beta 2.0 came out, it included sprint and machine guns, now camping was the easy way to score kills, skill at rushing the enemy base was eliminted by the rookie camper. A lot of teams quit, because it paid off if you camped, rather than rushed for flags.

I'm not saying that if Raven removes Strafe Jump they'll kill part of the game. I'm saying that if they remove the Strafe Jump they'll need to include another aspect of gameplay to differentiate newbs and the more experienced players.

Luc Solar
04-07-2003, 01:01 PM
Ummm, Matariel.. we're not talking about removing the possibility to jump sideways. It's about a weird thing in the Quake 3 engine that lets you gain more speed while jumping in a certain way.

And because everyone wants to move at high speeds, we get jedis who are hopping around the map like bunnies. That's not exactly cool.

Having lethal sabers doesn't make the game require "no skill". And all this talk about Movies.... *sigh* ...they're movies, this is a game. (btw - the sabers seemed to kill people pretty efficiently in one hit even in the movies ;) )

Zodiac
04-07-2003, 01:02 PM
SW= realistic? rofl
I never said SW was realistic. See that slash in my previous post between SW and realistic? it has the same meaning as the word 'or'. :rolleyes:
i think you guys are missing the point entirely! ppl saying 'remove strafe jump!', what the hell? are you saying, 'make it physically impossible to jump and move to one side'? thats ludicrous! if i wanted to dodge something, thats the first thing i'd do! apart from cowering behind something large and firmish...And i thought the forward roll was faster moving than that anyway.
We're not referring to a normal jump to the side, we're referring to a move that looks like a fast bunny hopping all over the level .

Strafe jump is no bug, its built into the q3 engine. Remove strafe jumping, and Raven removes one of the few differentiating factors between newbs and experts
Many people are overlooking the point that I want it replaced by a better alternative for a speedy movement (a movement that suits the SW world a lot more), not just simply removed and leave things as slow as they would be.

Deadeye
04-07-2003, 01:05 PM
I read some of the posts but I did not have the patience to read them all up to this point. I had an idea mainly for single player, about the sabers. If anybody played with that mod that had the two meters on each side of the screen. Each one was constanly fluctuating as your reticle aim improved or degraded. It basically told you what your odds of connecting with your saber offensively or defensively. I thought that was an interesting idea, but a bit cumbersome in practice. I thought it might be cool if you had one meter that only told you about your defensive capabilites. I also suggest that there be a block button. This would be cool b/c you could ignite the saber, and be in idle state, then hold down or hit the button to take a ready posistion. -This would allow for some cool idle, ignition, poses. Anyway, here how it goes. You walk up to an enemy saber weilder. Stop and whip out your hilt. In a cool stlyized way, you hit the ignite button. You stand there idle in a rather badass-looking stance,which will look more badass as you become a better jedi. At the beginning of the game you guy might look a tad bit timid when faced with another jedi. Later on he gets more confident looking. If you walk up to the other jedi and he's rather aggresive, you can hold down the block button and you will have this really sweet, fast-paced, clash, clash, clash. With each block the defence meter goes down. Each stance dishes out more "damage" to that meter. When this meter is depleted (I figure 4-6 hits with blue stance to kill it), you have to parry, or back flip or, actually take an offensive swing, b/c the next swing is going to connect with your player. If you do decide to take an offensive swing and your meter is gone, you might still contact his saber for a block, but you will be more likely to be knocked away. I also suggest that this meter recharges very quickly. Sorta like a jetback meter does. Unlike that mod, you can easily keep tabs on your defensive capabilites, and it can allow for a a bit of strategy in saber combat. -not too much mind you. What it also allows for is a nice bit of wickedly fast saber combat with clashing sabers, but it limits the newbie button mashing method of getting that. If you do just stand there with the block button held down it would go like this. Block! Block! Block! Block! Block! Saber-knocked away, and bam! you're dead! (or really damaged) Also the AI should have their own meters (not visible to the player) That way you might come on aggresively and they have to block it all and then they might spin away like Obi-Wan did in E1 against Darth Maul. The only thing that the block button/meter does is let you quickly and easily plan you moves. You might hit him with a red stance hit and it will completely drain the meter, then switch to blue stance, and take him out while his saber is knocked away. In multi-player you have to watch out not to try to block some of those red stance swings. After the long slow swing, you might be able to hit him blue. I could go on and on trying to exemplify everything, but I have thought about most of the complaints about the combat, what with the patched and all. I really think that at the very least this will give single player jedi-jedi combat a real sence of urgency, and intensity. By not knowing your enemy's defense meter, you have to only keep track of yours and just look for that opening. Think of it this way. You hit the guy many many times, and you think that any second now he'll be "tired" and his blocking might falter (meter is empty) It causes you to look for or anticipate an opening, just like in real sword combat. When your enemy's meter is out he might roll to the side, spin away, of back flip outta there, and you would be like, "damn! he parried" So you have to get back in there. This time, he's coming on strong so you have to do some blocking. But you deiced to roll to the side after your meter is halfway down, and you strike him down from the side. With the additions of some simple combos to the game you could plan and anticipate your openings and counter with a sweet combo. Adding a quick forward jab (like saber battleX) would be cool for those openings. regarding combos I was thinking about how fighting against stormies, or other gun toting enemies would be. If you are in the middle of several guys it might be cool to have a simple combo like A, D, Swing, which would do a swing to the left and then to the right, you could have some cool senarios where you killed two guys on either side of you. Star Wars is all about those sweet moments that we remember. If you are able to get creative with your attacks, defense, combos, etc. You can really create those memorable moments. That's why Deus Ex is so great. You could really get creative with how you dispatch your enemies. I have other ideas about some of the force powers, and the overall feel of the game, but I'll save that for another post. I really have given a lot of thought to this saber mechanic, and I know that I probably did not describe it well enough, but if anyone wants to question something about it, I will probably be able to explain around it.

Agen
04-07-2003, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by WD_Rage
Strong stance, though, is extremely, extremely slow. In JK1, the swing really wasn't much slower than the primary swing. The swing itself took longer, but it did not slow down the player.

Your right but what i meant is that if it's liek that in jk2 then they should make a huge gap because i thoguht it was a bit overused in jk. :)

Also look at this on manual saber blocking (from the blocking thread :p)

This is the way I think manual blocks would work:

You press the secondary fire and you bring your saber up in a block position. The long you hold the block button down the less chance you have of sucessfully blocking the attack, untill you are forced to lower your defences. Therefore, that forces people do use more skill and timing to have more effective blocks -- as opposed to just random blocks.

Since the block button would be right next to the fire button you'd be able to switch between an attack and a block very quickly.

A succesfuly block would make the opponent slightly less capable of blocking your next attack in return -- a succesfuly block would knock the opponent's defences down for a second. That causes 2 person fights to be more up close and personal, since you'd WANT to land a block in order to kill your foe. Evading attacks alltogether -- which is very non movie like -- would not be as practical, so no more jousting.

When two sabers colide, with both fighters doing an attack, and not a block then the saber simply block each other, and no one is penalized.

When a lightsaber wielding person has his saber out, and is hit by another saber, than there is a slight chance the saber will automatically block, provided the saber is close enough to the attempted attack. That would be in defence against attacks going through an ignited saber.

When a single lightsaber wielding opponent is blocking a two lightsaber wielding player, the one with 1 saber would block it in the same manner in which automatic blocking would be.

Anyways, that's the way I would see it working, it would still retain nearly all of the speed of JO (heck, anything is faster than a heavy versus heavy fight), while implementing alot less random deaths, making fights more calculated and strategic.



and my followup sort of the same way (it's based on this mostly)

for everyone who is against, think of the way it works, if thery fire you need to click the block button just in time to save your self which, parrys them or or knocks em back a bit then you attack back - maknig it more movie liek (even though i don't really care about that at all) and much more fun and interacting imo .... It woudi be a great quick click system i think where button mashing cannot win.
That's MHO anyway
Of coruse there would be two seperate buttons, prob prim and sec. isntead of sab throw.... that could jsut go bury itself in the neutral power list.

I thoguht this needed to be addressed in this thread and also i think that raven sohudl maybe give the server admin an optino for auto or manual in mp. I think that it should be kept the smae way it already is in sp.

P4ulo
04-07-2003, 01:32 PM
Its q3 and strafe jumping is there,and we can thank god for that
Asking for its removal its been nooby just cause they cant do strafe jumping and think its cheating.
You re defending your brainless sw ideas so much that u ll earn an rpg after good games like dark forces and jk1 FPS that came first.
Game will have guns, sabers and force powers so the best way to divide skill (aim oriented) from rpging (kidding around waving a light stick, bowing and taunting like a 9 yo kid) is to make classes (like matt posted) for multiplayer.
Even if classes are not made, ppl will choose their own way and make their own classes such as not joining a saber only server or guns server.
Jk2 was also called JEDI OUTCAST and wasnt about saber combat only. This is called JEDI ACADEMY so u get to progress from padawan to whatever in SINGLE PLAYER.
We are talking about MP gameplay. A saber only doesnt fit in a CTF mod for instance, cause its about a fast paced, speed, action, teamwork, not about running away using force powers or dueling in the middle of it or even getting rid of someone by simply pressing a key pull whoring which doesnt take any skill.
Im thinking that CTF will come along with JA although i never saw luke or darth vader playing it and yet no one complains " hey its about Jedis! there shouldnt be a CTF mod in it" same thing goes to strafe jumping or q3 physics so stop complaining about it, instead requesting for an only guns or an only saber oriented gameplay ask for classes, both communities, saberists and gunners. Maybe this way we can enjoy playing wihtout reading things like "cheater!!" "u only use rockets" "hey i was saber down!"

Agen
04-07-2003, 02:29 PM
I mostly agree with your post but your are obviously far biased for CTF mode.

Deadeye
04-07-2003, 02:49 PM
Since you are at Jedi Academy, it might be cool to have your master go with you on most missions in the beginning. In certain areas of the game, he might stop you and tell you to go this way or that way, and that he'll take out these guys over here, or there, etc. He'll advise you on certain tactics in certain areas. If you disobey like Anakin, he might yell at you to wait or something like that. Beware though, this can be made really cool or absolutely lame! Don't make the master speach repetetive! Jsut a few little areas where you two plan an attack.

Proto
04-07-2003, 02:53 PM
Well, after reading the interview on Games Domain I would say that it is more than possible. They compared the realtionship between Master and Apprentice to the one we saw in TPM, and suggested, that they would do some missions together. Not a bad idea anyway ;).

Necrosis
04-07-2003, 04:04 PM
So your saying that you would rather run in a stright line all the time than actually be able to catch up to people a certain way? That would suck in CTF... even in sabers.

I don't see your problem with strafe jumping... OH NO, it doesn't look 'starwarish', so what? It adds better gameplay, which to me (and should to you :) )is more important that how it looks.

Strafe jumping must stay, end story.


and mo the saber dmg needs to improve, blue swing you could stand next to someone and swing for like a min. straight and not kill them. It was desgusting. I think however, people that just run around and randomly swing, should be blocked easily.

Zodiac
04-07-2003, 04:17 PM
So your saying that you would rather run in a stright line all the time than actually be able to catch up to people a certain way?
I'm not saying that. Think about this: in JK2, you can't catch up to people if you're not strafe jumping. Now what if you had another way that's just as fast as strafe jumping, that does look like a natural movement and that enabled you to catch up to people and give you all the benefits strafe jumping had, without having to strafe jump? It'd make strafe jumping unnecessary, thus it could be removed.

That's what I've been saying all along! Plz people: read my posts before flaming on me, because I'm not simply yelling:"REMOVE STRAFE JUMPING". I'm talking about a way to replace strafe jumping with an alternative type of movement that'll have the same goals, but without the idiotic look of people jumping around like that. And if that alternative way can't be implemented, just keep strafe jumping.

Solo4114
04-07-2003, 04:21 PM
Don't get me wrong. I like having guns in the gameplay. I'd like to see a cool class based system where you could finally truly implement the mercs v. jedi style gamplay, where people have access to either guns or sabres and the gameplay is BALANCED and FUN. At the same time, however, I understand that some folks want their strafe-jumping, access to all guns, weapons, force powers, gadgets, etc. and just want to frag. That's fine by me, let 'em go play FFA. FFA, as the name suggests, should be a true free for all with no holds (or guns/force powers) barred, except those that the server limits.

OTHER game types, however, should be emphasized more in this version. CTF was pretty well shafted in JO, which was a real pity. CTF and other objective-based modes of gamplay are my personal favorites. I like fighting alongside a team, working towards a common goal, but unfortunately, due to a shortage of maps and some gameplay tweaks, CTF became rather a chore in JO.

I think that most people can be satisfied by different game modes. Those who really just want to play quake with Star Wars guns, force powers, and lightsabres have FFA, and more power to 'em. Those who want team-based competition can play CTF or RTCW-style objective-based gameplay.

Within those styles, you can break the gameplay methods down further, either through server-side variables (IE: No-holds-barred gameplay vs. class-based gameplay), or through separate sub-game types. Even in a class-based game, you could further sub-divide the game play by having games that are teams of mercs vs. teams of jedi, or mixed teams going at it.

The point is that there need not be a single all-encompassing set of mechanics to control ALL styles of gameplay (at least, in theory). You can appease groups who want more fast-paced gameplay, groups who want access to ALL abilities and features at once), and groups who like the class-based system where you have more limitations (but people are required to depend upon each other). Personally, I thought RTCW was a fantastic game, and I think that JO/JA could/can have a similar game mode, complete with classes that move at different speeds (a la the guy carrying a venom/panzerfaust moving slower while it's out), have different abilities and weapons, and are all working together to try and accomplish a particular goal. I'd LOVE to see a style of gameplay like this.

The real question, however, is will Raven take the time (or will they be given the time) to do this. That's one of the reasons why I caution the gun lovers out there. From the statements that Raven has made, regarding sabre combat, the focus of the game, etc., I suspect they will focus much more on the "jedi" side of things and less on the "gunner" side. Don't get your hopes up. We may end up depending on the mod community (which, Raven has said they want to support) to actually give us the gameplay styles and tweaks that we want, but then, that's not uncommon.

Solo4114
04-07-2003, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by Zodiac
I'm not saying that. Think about this: in JK2, you can't catch up to people if you're not strafe jumping. Now what if you had another way that's just as fast as strafe jumping, that does look like a natural movement and that enabled you to catch up to people and give you all the benefits strafe jumping had, without having to strafe jump? It'd make strafe jumping unnecessary, thus it could be removed.

That's what I've been saying all along! Plz people: read my posts before flaming on me, because I'm not simply yelling:"REMOVE STRAFE JUMPING". I'm talking about a way to replace strafe jumping with an alternative type of movement that'll have the same goals, but without the idiotic look of people jumping around like that. And if that alternative way can't be implemented, just keep strafe jumping.

Isn't that what force speed is supposed to do? I mean, I have no problem removing strafe jumping if it's 1.) a bug/exploit, 2.) it destroys the immersion factor of the game, and 3.) it's already got an in-game equivalent, namely speed. Want to run faster? Turn on force speed! You shouldn't be able to go faster than that, especially if doing so requires you to bounce around like a frickin' kangaroo. That's just goofy.

Look, think about it this way: assuming that you run at the same speed in real life regardless of which direction you're moving (which technically isn't true -- I don't know anyone who can run backwards as fast as they run forwards, or sideways for that matter), you actually should NOT be able to catch up to someone by running at an angle from their path. Ever hear that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line? Adding distance (by running sideways or diagonally) should NOT under ANY circumstances be able to do that.

If you want to catch up to your opponent, turn on force speed and use it more wisely than they do. Plan alternate routes to catch them, instead of following right behind. Shoot them in the back. Pull them. Push them over. Cut inside their turns to close distance between yourselves. Basically PLAY SMARTER. Don't play cheaper by manipulating a flaw in the game engine and then claim that it's skill of some sort.

LORIC
04-07-2003, 04:42 PM
Hi all

please no flam me ... i respect all.

Lucas arts understands that numbers are numbers:

number of saber servers more than weapons
lightsaber is one of the greatest dreams of SW saga and that means wear and fight with a lightsaber in a great way is the mainly attraction of that game :)

Weapons are cool too , the game with weapons is faster and exciting cos of the multiple possibilities were u can be in , saber and weapons balancing is difficult :)

probably saber damage should be bigger.

i would like more weapons :) and more saber and a fine balanced rules that maintain a good gameplay without make ppl choose one or other.

about pull push , in my oppinion is ok right now , it makes difficult for anyone to run form a place to another without end destroying gameplay ( not a real problem in weapons but yes in saber ctf) .

the solution could be as the big artifex master did : make pull push aim sensible by someway.

anyway i would like to say that pull push requieres skill
( i say it cos some ppl used to say just no )
i say this cos u can push pull and get nothing , but choosing the right moment ( skill ) u can get a lot :) like shooting :)

u cant kill pulling pushing only , u can block ? a lil only while u have force , if some team mate of the puller/pusher kills u while u are blocked , were was ur team mate? and that situation is not as easy as it be common

.... l8r

Zodiac
04-07-2003, 04:50 PM
2 Solo:
Force speed costs mana, and strafe jumping doesn't. So you can't be speedy all the time with force speed, while you can be that speedy if you'd do the cost-free strafe jumping.
Most players consider the speed you get with strafe jumping as the normal movement speed, with force_speed giving a little extra boost to that. I was thinking of an alternative for strafe jumping that would maintain the strafe jumping movement speed that everyone considered to be normal. But overall I think I agree with you.

Drdeath
04-07-2003, 05:32 PM
I am curious to find out what are the force powers that the "hardcore" "competitive players" want to keep, that make it so different from playing Quake3?

Anyone with a litttle practice can strafe jump. You want to jump high? Change the gravity. You want to run faster change that setting.

They hate push and pull.

Thay hate sabers.

When did the game become a low grav fast speed Q3 mod??

This is a SW game. It's not about being a Jedi or being a RPGer, its about using the game to it's fullest. The saber is a HUGE part of the JK universe. With out it and without some of the force powers it would just be a Quake 3 mod.

Speaking clearly without insulting people will get your point across much quicker.

[Edit Taos - You should follow your own advice and do the same. You have been warned.]

WD_ToRMeNt
04-07-2003, 05:51 PM
Class based system. Bleh.

JK1 has no class based system, JK1 is alive.

MotS has a class based system and it's dead.

Raven compared the activity of JK1 with MotS and saw that a class base system just didn't work. They won't do it, and for good reason. It wouldn't work at all for competative play.

WD_ToRMeNt
04-07-2003, 06:00 PM
Originally posted by Drdeath
I am curious to find out what are the force powers that the "hardcore" "competitive players" want to keep, that make it so different from playing Quake3?

Anyone with a litttle practice can strafe jump. You want to jump high? Change the gravity. You want to run faster change that setting.

They hate push and pull.

Thay hate sabers.

Basically everyone that likes sabers should STFU and is a n00b.

When did the game become a low grav fast speed Q3 mod??

This is a SW game. It's not about being a Jedi or being a RPGer, its about using the game to it's fullest. The saber is a HUGE part of the JK universe. With out it and without some of the force powers it would just be a Quake 3 mod.

And Torment, do you have to be an ass to everyone here. Speaking clearly without insulting people will get your point across much quicker.

Oh joy, another person that is talking about something he is unfamilair with WITHOUT HAVING READ PREVIOUS POSTS. I've already answered your question, scroll up for God sake. But I might as well repeat myself... again.

We want JK3 to be more like JK1, and if you ever played JK1 FF on a competative level, you'd know that JK1 FF was NOTHING like quake. JK1 is in a class all it's own. We don't want Q3, we want a better JK1.

contender
04-07-2003, 06:02 PM
Originally posted by Drdeath
I am curious to find out what are the force powers that the "hardcore" "competitive players" want to keep, that make it so different from playing Quake3?

Unless I'm mistaken there are no force powers in Quake 3. Which is what makes this game so special.

Anyone with a litttle practice can strafe jump. You want to jump high? Change the gravity. You want to run faster change that setting.

Not quite sure what you're trying to get at here. Modding the Game can give us the changes that we desire? The whole point of this thread so that we as the community don't have to make numerous mods (which tend to split the community), and can be content with the game that Raven releases.

They hate push and pull.

Untrue, using push and pull is part of the game. Its the way push and pull are used, and the way raven implemented them is what we are working to fix.

Thay hate sabers.

Also untrue, many of the posts by "Hardcore competitive gamers" have been calling to make sabers more viable in CTF play.

Basically everyone that likes sabers should STFU and is a n00b.

Don't really understand why you need to flame here as this thread is for constructive posts, but whatever. If you're trying to put words in other people's mouths, you shouldn't.

When did the game become a low grav fast speed Q3 mod??

No one ever said the game was a low grav q3 mod. Just because its based on the q3a engine doesn't mean its a mod.

This is a SW game. It's not about being a Jedi or being a RPGer, its about using the game to it's fullest. The saber is a HUGE part of the JK universe. With out it and without some of the force powers it would just be a Quake 3 mod.

Agreed, again, that's why quite a few posts are regarding making sabers more viable in all gametypes.

Agen
04-07-2003, 06:04 PM
We don't want Q3, we want a better JK1.
So blody right.

Basically everyone that likes sabers should STFU and is a n00b

I've not been told that yet and i like playing jk2 sabers. :rolleyes:

twl.Sphinx
04-07-2003, 06:04 PM
Removing strafe jumping from the game would be a big mistake. It requires skill to learn how to do it, and it does indeed, as contender mentioned, separate n00bs from vets. It is also quite possible to catch up to somebody esle who is also strafe jumping, because not everyone's strafing skills are equal. I've done that many times myself. Besides, strafing is plain FUN to do! So what if it originated as a rounding error in the quake engine's physics. It doesn't make any damn difference whether it looks "realistic" or not. Half the things you see in JK2 aren't "realistic". This is a sci-fi game. I guarantee that 90% of you who sit around and think strafing is "stupid" for one reason or another, are probably just not very good at it, or just don't want to learn how to do it. It's too fun to do once you know how to do it for you to willfully want it taken out.

The competitive community is not out to add 100% more speed and ammo to the game, and we do not wish to take aspects away from the game from people who prefer saber combat. The whole purpose of this thread, is not to get into some BS arguement of "saber vs gun", but it is to remind Raven that there are alot of us who like the guns aspect of the game, and we'd like them to take note of that, and not butcher our aspect of the game in thier process of adding more stuff for saber combat. Following that line of reasoning, we have put forth many suggestions we feel would improve the multiplayer FF guns (all weapons) aspect of the game, which is what we prefer.

Do not post in response to what we are saying to try to say we are "against all sabers" and "we think all people who like sabers are just n00bs and shouldn't be listened to." You are hijacking this thread and turning it away from its constructive purpose in doing so. Stop trying to make this an arguement of "sabers vs gunners". That is not conducive to the benefit of all here, and you need to knock it off.
-Sphinx

WD_ToRMeNt
04-07-2003, 06:16 PM
Not everyone who likes sabers is a newbie, I was a FF Saberist in JK1. The crappyness of JK2 forced me to use guns more then anything though.

Yes however, there are classes of people I'd rather not have post on this thread. Newbie isn't the right word for them. I'm talking about the SW fanboys and RPGers. Fanboys would play the game just to pretend to swing around a light saber and act out wet dreams about Padme. They'll buy the game wether it's good or not and nobody cares if they stay long. RPGers are just... bleh. Go play SWG or KotoR and let us have an untained by your newbieness honest to god FPS.

It's not an RPG, it's a FPS. It's not a book, it's not a movie, it's not TV, it's a FPS video game played MP.

Shut up. As good as "no guns in the game, a class system, a netto saber blocking system, and whaever else blah blah blah" sounds to you meek minded ones, what you are suggesting actually destroys the gameplay of the game. It's not a movie or RPG, it's not about looking good for some gimmick, it's about GAMEPLAY that you enjoy and doesn't suck.

wingedmonkey4ev
04-07-2003, 06:32 PM
Ok, i'm going to start off by saying JK series rule!!!! JK1 and JK2 both are INCREDIBLY awesome and i want to kiss the feet of their developers (unless their moldy, but even then i would consider it). So thank u guys, keep on trucking. However, the curse of amazingly good games is amazingly high expectations, and with this little thread, i want to ask the guys that have any say in the making of JK3 to PLZ PLZ PLZ consider these things me and the guys came up with.

I am eternally gratefully for you even looking at this, if anyone has anything constructive or informative (or suggestive, why not?! :D ) to say, plz don't hesitate.

1. I think i don't need to say that it is the bright little glowing stick of pure destruction that makes the JK series so incredibly fun. They are a billion shooters out there, but the lightsaber gives JK a certain edge (pardon the incredibly corny joke).

JK2 sabre fighting was excellent, it looked incredibly awesome, BUT, looks aren't everything. It was much slower, less deadly and harder to manage than JK1's. It was obviously better, due to the time elapsed, but it's clumsiness was disappointing.

IF THE DEVELOPERS CHANGE ANYTHING AT ALL, IF THEY READ ANY OF THIS AT ALL, PLEASE, I BEG YOU!!!!!!!! MAKE SABER FIGHTING MORE ACTIVE. BY THAT I MEAN, U DON'T HAVE TO HAVE THE 3 STANCES, A LIGHT SABER IS SO SWEET DUE TO IT BEEING INCREDIBLY EASY TO HANDLE AND ALMOST WEIGHTLESS. WE DON'T WANT TO SPEND 5 SECONDS IN A RED SWING. KEEP THE MOVES (ADD SOME :D HEHE, PLZ) MAKE THEM FASTER, AND MAKE THE LIGHSABER WHAT IT SHOULD BE: AN ELEGANT, QUICK, AND GRACEFUL WEAPON OF PURE DESTRUCTION.

2. Put more acrobatics in. When i first saw how Katarn can flip over enemies, run on wall, dodge sniper fire, and do all the sweet spins, i finally saw a star wars game coming OH SO CLOSE to movie quality (which is amazing).

3. This was already mentioned, downplay the force a little bit plz. I mean it was fun for a while pushing ppl off of suspended cat walks of nar shadaa streets, but it got incredibly annoying when u pull out a saber and try to engage in a duel (or try to snipe someone) and be simply pushed off, not even killed, just pushed off to your doom.

4. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK! I'm not just kissing arse, i really mean it. JK2 was a huge improvement on JK1 (which was an awesome...wait, it still is an awesome game!). I sincerely hope you can do the same w/ JK3. Whatever happens, i hope it turns out for the best! THe best of luck to the developers, and thank u to anyone who read this.

The Truthful Liar
04-07-2003, 06:36 PM
Contender has the right idea so far. :]

Break_dF
04-07-2003, 06:39 PM
Yes, strafing is difficult to fully master and takes skill... speed does not. I can't believe strafe jumping even came into question...

Also, I'd just like to address some people hinting at an implementation of anything close to promod... please, hell no... If jk3 is anything like pro-crap-mod, several people (including myself) will just stick with other games. That mod was catered to one or two people that couldn't accept the inevitability of bugs. Personally, I like bugs... they're fun to figure out and exploit. I seriously hope that there are several of them in jk3. Also... let's stop with the whole discussion of jko and what "skill" it did or did not take. Obviously, every fps takes skill. Unless your name is Jonathon Wendell, you have no basis to judge. Again... can someone please stalk the raven developers and bribe them into releasing some beta test info. Oh, and no Europeans in beta, dammit... I hate you all. :rolleyes:

Tesla
04-07-2003, 06:43 PM
Raven or lucasarts aren't likely to look at anything posted here what people post is a idea they may have not something raven will use in the making of there game and certanily aren't gonna look on these forums since in the gameplay forum for JA there's loads of ideas by many forummers and raven would never be able to even think of ever making half of what people have come up with,but if they did it would be cool :D we can always hope !!