Gameplay Suggestions

[pds.silentsoul]

Dear Raven,

When Jedi Outcast came out I was another enthused star wars fan in heaven. I loved the game very much and overall it was balanced between lightsabers and guns in the beginning.

[pds.silentsoul]

woops, i goofed and hit tab enter. the rest of the post is here...


Then Raven decided to patch the game and change all the ammo requirements for certain guns and the manna requirements for certain force powers. I'm sorry guys but once a game is out and has been for a month or 2 you cannot change 90% of the gameplay and expect people to continue playing your game. I feel I represent a majority of jk2 players which are not represented on this board who want a fast paced game to come out this fall. I can understand the saber enhancements to a point, but if this game is to be played by the masses and beat out games like Counter-strike it will have to be fast. In order for the game to be fast you must revisit jk2 before the patches. Battles were quick and decisive. People weren't always looking for ammo in games. Games were relatively high scoring. The game resembled an insanely popular ctf/tdm game known as Qauke 3. Raven followed Id software's lead and created a fast paced ctf/tdm game that anyone who had played Quake 3 or one of its clones could enjoy. But, if Raven were to enhance the saber so much that it would be the weapon of choice to many gamers mainly because they want that RPG element then Raven will have failed and scared away most of the potential gamers out there. Increasing saber abilities will only slow down the game mainly because you have to be standing 2 feet away from someone to kill them. People can run away very easily. This brings me to another point. There needs to be a gun that causes an incredible amount of damage to a person like the rail gun from Quake 3. The disruptor was nice, but you had to zoom in order to use it. This made it very difficult to use. Also a suggestion would be to increase the speed of the rockets from teh rocket launcher and give it much more ammo and possibly decrease the damage a little bit.

This is all i can think of for the moment. But Raven please listen to this post because a majority of the people who played the game do not post here because of the RPG people who do. This post will get flamed i'm sure, but there are only a few hundred, maybe a thousand members to this board. Thousands who do no post here will play the game. Remember this is a minority of the people who play the game!

[pds.silentsoul]

Here is a quote from one of my clanmates, who at the time was one of the best ctfers in the game(keep in mind this is within its first 2 months of existence).

He played until the patch which changed ammo requirements came out. And this is what he has to say: "basically jk2's problem was the push/pull factor. There was two maps where u couldnt fall off the edge, and the other 2 were a nightmare when everyone on the other team would just throw you to your death. Push/pull is way to easy to do. The only solution is to either make them weaker so it takes more than one push/pull to take someone off an edge, or simply make maps where the voids aren't such a factor. One idea that came to my mind was to each base for ctf. One would be the faster route, but there'd be a void for someone to push/pull the fc/offense into. The other way would be longer, but have no void to be thrown into. I felt that weapons weren't as important as powers, and a balance needs to be achieved in future jk games."
-pds.dynom|te
Right now he is an avid Quake 3 player mainly ctf.

[PetR-]

What soul has just posted is absolutely true. JK2 was a very good game for the first two months. 1.03 nerfed the game completely, and when 1.04 finally got to the community, it slowly died. Please focus more on gameplay, and the guns rather then graphics and sabers. I know you are near complection, but please take suggestions and implant them into the game from the competitors point of view.

Suggestions for guns.

Both the Bryar and Blaster were perfectly balanced and perfected, so if you keep the ammo consumption the way it was in JK2, everyone would be happy.

Crossbow is perfect

I know most people loved the repeated gun when it wasn’t nerfed, so keeping the settings like 1.02 would be perfect

The Fletchette should have one direction for its shot, and not have a different direction each time you shoot it. Those balls go differen’t places randomly each time, and if it would just go the direction you aim, it would be perfect.

Possibly change the rocket launcher to the concusion from DF2, if not, boost the speed, add more ammo, and maybe a little damage as soul clearly stated.

Most guns are perfect, and I’m just putting down the guns MAINLY used for the competitive point of view.

Force
I know you guys are implementing more force powers, but for the default ones, Most people would like to see every power back in. Please take into consideration of balancing the force powers, it is a key thing to competitive play.

Mostly what soul, coming from a very well known “clan” in the jk2 competative world, said everything that would be very nice to have.

I have very high hopes for jk3, hopefully it will be the next q3 of competition. Please consider the following Raven Software.

[twl.Sphinx]

The problem is not that they need to not focus on sabers and graphics, but moreso that if they decide to do so, they don't need to totally neglect the guns competitive side of the game. As long as that is not neglected in lieu of doing 100s of things for saber combat, it should be fine. That being said, here's my opinion:

1) Make pull cost more, or put a delay after its use, or make it have to be aimed with the crosshair, or all of the above.
I think pull is the primary thing that takes this game away from being a skilled competitive game. It's really annoying when you are trying to play, and 10 people constantly pull you to your death, doing nothing but standing there. Absorb often isn't even effective against that many "pull newbies".

2) Make people who rage take more damage than they do.
Constant raging by people makes things hella borish. When one person does it, it's bad enough...but if 3-4 are, forget about having a good time in a CTF game, unless everybody's raging. And that's just stupid. People need to be able to be "de-raged" in some way, and quicker. For example, make detonation packs or mines always kill them or blow away their rage.

All I can think of now.
-Sphinx

[Agen]

Actually, in the very beginning, i thought that jk sabers were bad after things got exploited, Dfa was the first thing, it was the main prob, it was fine until plyers jsut started spamming it and you could be killed when there saber is in the ground... In 1.04 i thoguht the fixed alot of bug and made the game pretty balanced comapred to 1.02 and i think i they hadn't rushed it out to meet LEC's requirments we would never have noticed. 1 patch is enoguh but 2 is a bit much since people had already adapted. twice. My advice to Raven is to finish the game to perfection before you release and not to get bossed around by LA to meet deadlines.

[makli]

And make Team Energize balanced, in JK2 two players using TE constantly can get unlimited force.

I dont agree with ppl who say that "JK2 is about the saber". Its combination of saber/guns/force powers which makes it unique.

I m sure that JA will be great game if u ll manage to balance guns/force powers and also if saber wont be useless toy like in JK2 1.04 (in TDM/CTF on servers with enabled weapons).

[pds.silentsoul]

I disagree with the saber issue. Somehow, you have to make it so a saber can compete with a gun if you are to use it. And personally i dont understand why you'd want to run around with a saber all game. It's like running around with a knife in Counter-strike or a guantlet in Quake 3. You have to physically touch someone to kill them, and you have to touch them many times. There is no real way to make the saber a ranged weapon. I used the saber in the beginning of the game's launch and about a week later i ditched it for a gun. Personally, and i believe i speak for the competative ctf/tdm part of the community, guns are faster killers and can kill from a distance. This increases the overall speed and intensity of the game and supplements to its overall joy in playing.

[oasisfan]

Perhaps the return of the concussion rifle is an idea ?

oasisfan

[DSbr-matt]

if anything, PLEASE fix force pull. this over used power was responsible for turning a very large amount of potential competitive jk2 players away from the game.

one of the great things about jk2 was the movement. you could get yourself going at insane speeds and do crazy high jumps.... only to be stopped DEAD in your tracks by the talentless power know as force pull.

how does one become skilled at a first person shooter? generally, you must master the the weapons (aim, prediction, etc) and the movement (dodging, jumps, etc). This is what separates the good players from the newbies. But what was the point of mastering movement in jk2? all that dodging and high speed strafe jumping only to be stopped by any random newbie who can stand still and mash the force_pull bind over and over. there is no reward for mastering the movement of jk2 and that is sad.

it is very frustrating for skilled gamers to be easily foiled over and over again by random talentless newbies. I'm sure that 99% of the players from competitive jk2 scenes (http://www.teamwarfare.com/forums/forumdisplay.asp?forumid=18 and the euros - esl/clanbase) will agree with me on this one. It is a MUST FIX. Please consider this in the development of JK3.

[Agen]

I Totally agree fellow oasis lover :D with FF of course

[DSbr-matt]

Originally posted by oasisfan
Perhaps the return of the concussion rifle is an idea ?

oasisfan

definately. replace that ****ty 2ndary repeater lob shot with the good old conc.

[Agen]

Yep, Still the best gun in the series i think :)

[Necrosis]

I agree with silentsoul, PeTr and Sphinx. When reading up information on JA, you hear alot about the creators focusing on the saber combat. And honestly, from what I have read, it doesn't sound like muchb is being done to it. Everyone in jk2 tried to play the game as an RPG, when it was a FPS. If saber combat was going to be focused on, and that it was final, I would reccomend adding ALOT to the saber battles. I used to be quite the saberist in my day (sadly) and all the battles seemed to be the same. Saber battles need to be ALOT more.. free. Doing some crazy high flips in the air, landing near opponent exchanging swings. That's what the experience needs to be like. Someone spectating the game should be able to go like "OOOHHH sweet move!!" after a nice kill. In jk2, after a kill, it was like, wow, never seen that done before.There was what, like 3 combos in the game and 3 different kinds of swings? Everything was so repitive.

I also like the point soul made about the balance of the saber and guns. Pro gun players and pro saber players did 1v1's often in jk2, and not once did I see a saberist win. Sabers are what makes starwars unique , and in CTF games they had no use. So why not just go play Quake or another game that specialises in gunning? CTF was great because of the fast game play, but nobody ever really used the saber too much. the most use you could get out of it was to block shots and guard yourself when making a flag run.


-Saber battles need to be alot more "free" and fast paced, and not so repetive.
-Guns/Sabers need to be more balanced in CTF Games (all types of games for that matter)
-Force powers (eg pull) need to be fixed. Like what sphinx said about being a "pull newbie". I hated that in ctf.

[DSbrLogan]

Ok, as a member of the greatest team to ever grace competitive jk2 I will lay down some fact and opinions of mine.


the entire push/pull argument is boring. basically what happens with push and pull is that whether or not raven meant to do it, players with superior movement are actually handicapped becuase that same movement makes them a much easier target to get pushed or pulled. im sorry but the more time i spend playing the game and learning how to move fast within the games phsyics i should not be penalized because someone just bought the game and decided to press the push button pushing me back 15 feet while the next guy he pushes is also new to the game and is walking and doesnt even get pushed back in the slightest. in my opinion push and pull should be merely a continuation of pull from dark forces 2 : jedi knight. by saying this I mean that if someone presses the button to use force pull then it should pull my weapon assuming i do not have absorb on. as for push i am thinking that it should merely push back a weapon shot or if you are say within 3-5 feet of an enemy then it can push them off of their feet. it really pained my team to the point that at times this game was too frustrating to play because teams we should be beating 150 - 0 we were only beating 50 - 0 becuase our superior movement was hampered by the push/pull phsyics of the game.


second note, guns are good - all energy weapons arent. the flak gun oops i mean golan in my opinion was a bad choice. i understand that you wanted to mix up q3 and unreal weapons but sometimes it just doesnt work. there were really 2 worthwhile weapons in the game because of how quickly with good aim you could dispatch an opponent, with those being golan and heavy repeater. then you make them require more ammo thereby limiting the shots one can make without running for more ammo. im sure others will say the other weapons were good too and im not saying they werent i for one thought the stormtrooper rifle and bowcaster were really good incarnations from the original jedi knight. im not saying just copy the q3 weapon set but lets be honest for a fps the quake weapons are very tried and true. i would love to see the concussion rifle and rockets from jedi knight make a return, without taking a serious hit to speed or damage either. theres nothing more boring than being able to out RUN a rocket fired at me. let me know if anyone needs further explanation on this area.


lastly i do not know what happened with the butchering of the q3 engine (alas i kid i kid) but one thing i did not like was the relative unsmooth feeling jk2 offered. by saying this i mean that i could jump somewhere and stick to walls rather than sliding off of them. i didnt like making force jump the jump button also you have no clue how much mana i lost becuase no matter how long i paused in between jumps in my superfast strafejumping madness i would get charged for force jumping. its hard to explain but i could hit corners in jk2 and just warp into abyss instead of getting up the ledge.


i will undoubtably add more later



dsbr-logan
#darksaber on irc.enterthegame.com
Dark Saber - the uncontested gods of jk2

[pds.silentsoul]

I totally agree with matt. In the beginning of the game, the first 2 months, nobody knew the power of the push/pull and the game was great for it. Once all the force powers were changed around after the patches people started to rely too heavily on the team energizing, pushing, and pulling. CTF is an insane challenge with the over emphasis on these powers. Raven i hope to god your reading this. If you guys do not take into consideration teh ideas said in this post the game may make money but it wont have replayability. Nobody will play it in the long run. Look at jk2 online competitive play is totally and completely dead. The game's concepts are great, they make for excellent CTF/TDM play, however the push/pull and ammo/force changes you made were waht killed the game.

[PetR-]

All of the above.!!!

[Agen]

Ok, as a member of the greatest team to ever grace competitive jk2 .
Heh, maybe in jk but not quite in jk2 imo.
Though saeriously, The push pull crap was well out of order, thast's why i think ledge grab sohuld be implemented, to stop the crazy crap in CTF, and the pull backstab stuff :rolleyes:
Raven should sort this out before the game is released.
Also, i think that the Conc should be put back in as it was seriously missed in jk2 (the G thing was a bad replacement imo)

[DSbr-matt]

Originally posted by DSbrLogan
basically what happens with push and pull is that whether or not raven meant to do it, players with superior movement are actually handicapped becuase that same movement makes them a much easier target to get pushed or pulled. im sorry but the more time i spend playing the game and learning how to move fast within the games phsyics i should not be penalized because someone just bought the game and decided to press the push button pushing me back 15 feet while the next guy he pushes is also new to the game and is walking and doesnt even get pushed back in the slightest.

[DSbrLogan]

quick followup


you cannot balance sabers and guns in a ctf environment. theres no point you shouldnt penalize regular competitive players that dont care about the saber unless in an enclosed space with an opponent, just because some saber fanatics believe that EVERYTHING SHOULD BE EQUAL OR YOU GUNNERS CAN GO PLAY QUAKE. you would not believe how many times i was told to go play quake in regular public servers because i didnt choose to play with a saber. HELLO I AM A GUNNER I CAN STILL ENJOY THE GAMEPLAY OFFERED BY SUPER MAGIC ABILITIES KNOWN AS FORCE POWERS. that whole argument about "if you like guns go play q3" is so utterly stupid considering i too like playing jedi knight.

and those that claim saber is too under powered compared to the guns, it SHOULD be. i shouldnt be killed just because someone decides that since he cannot stop me with skill that he will simply script up some saber moves and blindly hack away with it killing me in 1 or 2 hits. personally theres no point for a saber in weapons ctf save for deflecting small energy shots. i would rather see a beefier "stun gun" that carries the same damage as the gauntlet in q3. in jk2 it was ridiculously weak


what i would suggest is just a simple "tournament mod" like OSP for q3 or TTM for ut2k3. allowing saberists to enjoy their sabers only combat on their own servers with very easy to set up server configs. hopefully constructed by raven so that the entire community can accept it from the beginning instead of further splintering every competitive scene with 350902 different mods.

[DSbr-matt]

Originally posted by DSbrLogan
theres nothing more boring than being able to out RUN a rocket fired at me.

[PetR-]

Another thing raven should consider is add some life to 1v1. In quake 3, alot of people were into 1v1. It also had some of the biggest tournaments. Which advertises companys, which makes raven money ;).

Anyways, 1v1, JK had THEE BEST 1v1 IMO. The fast paced skill of Oasis FF blew any game away. With grade 2 drawings for gfx, the game still dominated every FPS game out there.

Consider the following:

Make fast paced 1v1 for JA
Make a variety of maps with different trick jumps etc. (Oaisis FF and BGJ did get a little boring after many years you know! ;) ).
Add the concusion rifle.
Boost speed to go insanley fast, also with strafe jumping, it really could ad a unique INSANLEY fast style of gameplay.
Add a SURGE, not a BOOST, a surge would implement and very new unique style for CTF and 1v1 if added in JA.

What people would like to see for CTF was basically narrowed down in all of the above comments.

[Agen]

and those that claim saber is too under powered compared to the guns, it SHOULD be. i shouldnt be killed just because someone decides that since he cannot stop me with skill that he will simply script up some saber moves and blindly hack away with it killing me in 1 or 2 hits. personally theres no point for a saber in weapons ctf save for deflecting small energy shots. i would rather see a beefier "stun gun" that carries the same damage as the gauntlet in q3. in jk2 it was ridiculously weak
I mostly agree with this, but there was the same argument when jk2 was due to ocme out, they really want to balance everything out rather than making 2 dif camps liek in jk and jk2. Though, I don'ty believe the game should be like the movies but i think they should pay attention, it deflects energy and melts small bullets. A rocket SHOULD kill a jedi, just because he has a saber doesn't make him important, If it was balanced between how the sbaers and guns could contend with each other it would be pretty spiffy.

[DSbrLogan]

and yes agen_terminator whoever you are im sure you have never heard of the great feats of clan darksaber in the arts of jedi knight two. maybe you should visit our page and take a look at the record.


http://www.gorilla2.net/dsbr


maybe the fact that before dsbr retired its original steady lineup we were undefeated since the release of the game, with the only loss in the revival of dsbr coming when none of the starters were around for matchtime and even after being told to reschedule one of the pathetic bench players so eager to prove he was as good as anyone else on the team forced other benched players to play. the dsbr starting lineup is undefeated in well over 40 games. we have not always kept track of our wins.


but now that you mention it yes dsbr was also the unstoppable god of dark forces two : jedi knight.


and undoubtably if there are somewhat decent guns in jedi knight : jedi academy and we have any fun playing it we will be the unstoppable gods of that game also.

good day to you random newbie that felt the need to reply to that one minor bit of text in a rather huge post by myself.


dsbr-logan
#darksaber on irc.enterthegame.com
Dark Saber - Unstoppable gods of jk1/jk2 making pathetic newbies cry and throw tantrums since '98, making down syndrome followers stutter out incoherent ramblings since '02

[Necrosis]

nice post logan, some good points.


Hopefully Raven will listen, and not make the same mistakes.

I know most of the people that post here prefer the saber aspect of the game. But CTF is easily the part of jk2 that required the most skill. I think alot of the "saberists" here, are some that tried to play the game as an RPG (no offence, but it's just not how the game was ment to be played). So it's good to hear from the competive half of jk2.

[Aoshi]

Yea, I'll have to agree with the rest of the TWL guys here.

1)Pull is really overused and it's effects negate the point of absorb. Pulling can be done continuously and when two defenders couple it with team energize, a flag carrier can be pulled indefinitely and completely stopped in his tracks and easily killed.

2)Energize is too easily spammed. Please if this force makes another appearance put a timer on it or make it so that the exact amount of force donated is the amount received and you dont receive quirky bonuses that can be exploited to fully regenerate the force pool.

3)Rage should not make you invulnerable. If this force reappears the speed and weapon bonuses are quite fine, but it shouldnt take 8 direct hits with both golan balls to kill a rager when it takes only 1-2 on a normal person and 4 on a person using protect.

4)If protect reappears please make it so that it costs a certain amount of force and does not require a force drain. That kind of defeats the purpose of protect doesnt it? I mean if you leave it on for more than 20 seconds you do not have enough force left to absorb any damage

5)I agree with petr who talked about the random factor of the golan. I hated that i would be on my target and fire only to miss by just a little bit.

6)Increase saber damage and uphold that area of gameplay, but PLEASE dont nerf our aspect of gaming (full force CTF) in favor of others. We never complain about them and we never whine about "that person dfa'ed me so i want the dfa nerfed" so next time if you decide to make a patch please dont influence another aspect of gaming (ctf) just because duelists complain when they cant get out of the way.

7)I also very much so agree with Logan on the aspect of sticking to walls. I hated that I would be strafing along full speed and then accidentally bump a wall and stick to it thus completely reducing my velocity to zero (and even moving me backwards a bit).

8)Please if the rocket launcher reappears, do something about the rocket exploit (where you get a partial circle with secondary switch to saber switch back to rocket and fire primary)

9)Please make more and bigger open maps where we can jump around and enjoy playing. So many maps are incredibly small or cramped that they are very hard to enjoy. Also if you make another smaller type map like CTF_Imperial please never again put a large shield booster in the base. This makes the game take FOREVER as there would be at times 30 minute + stalemates

10) Also please in the next installment find some way to make the force powers heal/drain/lightning somehow useful. For example make heal a certain force requirement (about the same as mindtrick) that will slowly regenerate health over a period of 20 seconds. that way a capper could turn it on before he entered an enemy base and then constantly receive health as he's being chased away. Instead of push or pull i think drain should be the only force power that can somewhat penetrate absorb. what i mean by this is if an enemy flag carrier comes to your base and you have drain, and he has absorb on you can drain him and drain for 1/3 the amount that you would normally be able to drain for. So if I Drained an opponent of mine using my entire force bar he would lose 1/3 of his. This way Drain could be used strategically to weaken flag carriers and would be somewhat useful. Lightning I suggest be replaced with Destruct so that it can be used somewhat as a weapon but is a very slow moving orb but causes mass damage that bypasses absorb when it hits (or maybe absorb can absorb all the force used but not the damage?).

11) Also if it's possible i would love to see a point system that takes into account assisting a flag carrier. It would be a system that detects if you shot or used force on an enemy within a certain proximity of the flag carrier or if you used some force power directly on the carrier. Not that points are overly important but this bonus would be nice.

12) A system that showed the percent of hits you have made with each weapon would also be nice. Although this is completely unneccessary it would be a neat addition.

In conclusion I really loved JK2 as it was my first FPS. This game has completely changed my perspective about online gaming and although i didnt agree with the constant patches and changes i still stuck with the game because it was unique in that it had force powers which added a whole new strategic element to playing instead of simply running around with a gun. I hope that you (Raven) improves saber combat as much as possible, but i also implore you not to neglect us the competitive aspect of the community. We are the ones who promote the improvement of newer players and we are the ones who provide new and interesting tactics that are later emulated by the rest of the population. Without the competitive support of a game it will never grow beyond it's infant stages so i ask you to include us when you think about the game so that Jedi Acadamy can reach its full potential and be a landmark in gaming for years to come.

BF_Aoshi

[Agen]

Of Course i have heard of DSBR :mad:
I'm not saying that yous are unsuccessful, You were always da best of da best but (Phoenix was my fav :), he still there?) they pretty much sorta failed to make an impact on people compared to jk1, WD and BSB were always inferior and everyone kenw it - Everyone had heard of Dsbr but msot people in jk2 had never heard of any of these clans and therefore that might mean - not a big impact. I'm quite sure was ASC was more popular yet unsuccessful compared to dsbr. Happy?

[DeTRiTiC-iQ]

Agreed. I bought JK (ie DF2) shortly after it was released but neglected the multiplayer aspect until about 6 months before JK2 was released. Up until then I had played occasionally, a few role-playing games (Drazen, Barons Hed etc) a bit of Spork craziness, but generally not much experience of JK multiplayer (or any multiplayer for that matter). Then I was challenged for a game by an experienced player, I thought "what the heck" and gave it a go, needless to say I was completely owned and it was frustrating to say the least. But the first thing I said after the game was: "teach me how the heck to do all that". Shortly after I realized just how incredible multiplayer JK was. The odd thing was, the most enjoyable (and addictive) part was the gunning. Soaring through the air picking people off with the Concussion Rifle using force seeing to see people moments before they emerged from round a corner. pure class.

Obviously there were issues, the bug of "super-gripping" and the ease of which it was to cheat meant you could never really be sure if the games were being played on fair terms, yet the game still remained addictive. Because despite balance issues, there was nothing like the pull/push of JK2 to make the game completely frustrating for even the best players.

So when I heard of JK2 I wanted more of the same, but enhanced, both graphically and in terms of game balance.

JK2 for the first couple of months was close to delivering, push/pull were a novelty at that time and nobody had really mastered kicking. Times were good, but then (and I don't know if this is directly related to the patches) people starting relying on "cheap" and boring methods of winning the games. It was no longer about lightening reflexes, skill, timing or accuracy...

CTF suffered mostly I believe, pull/push became an easy way for beginners to beat even the best, every strategy which was adopted by the competitive community to counteract this annoyance were quickly shouted about on just about every JK2 forum, aka the endless "selfkilling is so lame" threads.

Good gunners had to put up with clans of beginners exploited the kick-vote feature to take over public servers and kick anyone who they deemed "dishonourable".

Now, like all of the above members of the competitive community, i'm awaiting Jedi Academy with anticipation but also caution. So far the game sounds interesting to say the least, but so many of the features mentioned could easily become the source of numerous exploits and gaming agrivations. Raven, please don't neglect gunners in Jedi Academy, we've all but stopped playing JK2 because we were neglected there.

At the very least give the state of push/pull and dark rage some serious consideration, CTF should be about teamwork just as much as speed (in my opinion).

[Agen]

Yep, I still think it was a bad idea to take out the map (makes force seeing useless)

[PetR-]

Originally posted by Aoshi




7)I also very much so agree with Logan on the aspect of sticking to walls. I hated that I would be strafing along full speed and then accidentally bump a wall and stick to it thus completely reducing my velocity to zero (and even moving me backwards a bit).

8)Please if the rocket launcher reappears, do something about the rocket exploit (where you get a partial circle with secondary switch to saber switch back to rocket and fire primary)

9)Please make more and bigger open maps where we can jump around and enjoy playing. So many maps are incredibly small or cramped that they are very hard to enjoy. Also if you make another smaller type map like CTF_Imperial please never again put a large shield booster in the base. This makes the game take FOREVER as there would be at times 30 minute + stalemates





7 Totally fix that wall glitch, it really was a pain.

8 That was another big pain, someone just locking down a person, and firing the same rate as primary with no aim? That glitch really bothered me alot.

9 TOTALLY take everything in that paragraph into consideration. Have the center vest/armor in the middle, and add smaller shields scattered around and in the best. (not to much though)

[DSbrLogan]

actually tormentor newbie dsbr rarely played jk2 on the zone. i must assume that you think the zone is the center of the universe for jk2 considering your level of obvious newbieness. truth be told that considering the client/server nature of the quake three engine playing on one persons host is one of the least intelligent ways to play jk2 i can imagine, one even less intelligent being playing dsbr with all its starters playing. instead of the zone the actual good ( i say good becuase they had some idea of what was going on, if you were to compare them to dsbr then you couldnt call them good ) players instead used such programs as gamespy3d and allseeingeye to search for games. this allowed people to play on real servers with close to equal ping.


you can go back to the saber herd and ignore this thread now tormentor

[Jeff 42]

I agree with a lot of what has been said in this thread. I hope Raven takes into consideration the needs of the competitive/gunning players when they make this game.

As far as weapons go, most of them are good already. I especially like the disruptor and the Bryar and hope they are not changed in the next game. The weapons that I would suggest changing significantly or getting rid of are the stun baton (worthless), the Golan (doesn't really feel like a DF series gun, and can be annoyingly spammable), and the missile launcher (the concussion rifle and the rail detonator in JK were both much better, I thought). Maybe bring back the concussion rifle in some form. Also, the lightsaber definitely needs to be more powerful, but that does not mean that people who foolishly insist on using only the saber in all-weapons games should be able to rack up as many kills as skilled gunners.

For Force powers, I think a good solution to the push/pull madness is making it so you have to target someone with your crosshair to affect him. And something should be done to Rage to make it less annoying.

[Agen]

:rolleyes:
Logan, I only played JK2 on the zone once..... very first day.
Also i've been very loyal to ASE, been using it since it was first public cause of the great pings and flag images (so you don't go on a cs server with a bunch of germans)
And i spent most of my time playing jk2 on Hermes then going (got slagged because of the way i play :)), you can ask any swampie about that, i only used the zone for jk1. Especially with all this passport crap that's flooded it, it's only good for chess now :rolleyes: The zone is no way to play jk2 and suggesting that i didn't know this is just a cheap attempt at insulting me.

Yeh, and my name is terminator :p

[alarm]

Disruptor damage should be increased.

also, tormentor != terminator

[The Truthful Liar]

Originally posted by DSbrLogan
actually tormentor newbie dsbr rarely played jk2 on the zone. i must assume that you think the zone is the center of the universe for jk2 considering your level of obvious newbieness. truth be told that considering the client/server nature of the quake three engine playing on one persons host is one of the least intelligent ways to play jk2 i can imagine, one even less intelligent being playing dsbr with all its starters playing. instead of the zone the actual good ( i say good becuase they had some idea of what was going on, if you were to compare them to dsbr then you couldnt call them good ) players instead used such programs as gamespy3d and allseeingeye to search for games. this allowed people to play on real servers with close to equal ping.


you can go back to the saber herd and ignore this thread now tormentor

Keep the flames down please. There is no reason to be condescending like that and telling someone to leave a thread.

[DSbrLogan]

terminator are you a euro or from some other foreign to the usa country?



also id like to be able to pick up guns for ammo in the stock game and not require a mod to change that. you have no clue how it was pointless trying to control areas when you cant even pick up a spawned weapon to keep the enemy from picking it up.

[Agen]

Yep, Scotland.
And i also thoguht the not being able to pick up guns as ammo was a pretty hasty decision.

[DSbrLogan]

ah no wonder then you dont have any point of reference. supposedly "pg" was the best european clan to play jk2. well one of our members "matt" defeated "pg.retry" really badly in a euro server. so while matt had 200+ ms lag compared to retry's 50 matt still easily dominated him.


dsbr > all

[twl.Sphinx]

I'm sure everybody is enthusiastically enthralled by "Darksaber success", but it is not, after all, the point of this thread. Damn dude..Please go flame on TWL...not in this thread.
-Sphinx

[Agen]

Of course pg would get beat, Dsbr are far superior and i'm no fan of pg. Anyway time to get back on topic.

[P4ulo]

I just hope this game doesnt turn out to be a saber rpg game, its true that its funny in the beginning but after that its just boring.
Take a look at some of the vids that were made.
Im not going to write what i think bout all the force powers, but indeed something should be done with force push/pull.
The game became a force power whoring all the way, rage whoring, push/pull, auto team energize whoring, etc etc
And in my opinion, one of the most important things for the multiplayer topic - We need more than 4 maps, in jk2 case only 3 maps were playable cause almost everyone hated the imperial one. If nothing is done with the force push/pull at least make less pits in the maps, but more maps.
Also and since its a q3 engine, do u know how boring it is to make a vid without the possibility to do a fast forward/rewind while seeing the demos so we can extract a few secs of a demo.
We all know its star wars, sabers and force powers existence is a requirement but changes need to be done so we can have some skill in the game.
Finally i ll add that i agree with almost every post above mine (matt, aoshi, petr, det, logan) , forgetting about the flame posts, which should be deleted to make this thread a little bit more serious.
edit: All the weapons should stay, all but the impregnator one, forgot the name...

[oasisfan]

As the point of this thread is to suggest the ideas of the competitive community to Ravensoft in the hopes of improving on the predecessor JK2, I would like to request that all flames and nonrelated replies to be deleted so that our ideas can be taken more seriously.

Other than that, I agree on points made by Aoshi, a bar where u can see how much % u have hit would make people maybe practice their aim more. Hopefully at least.

Again, radio messages plus a personlocator would be very very nice and make the ctf game more decent.

Oasisfan

[Aoshi]

Yea... it'd probably be better that on the off chance Raven actually checks this thread they'll find constructive ideas instead of pointless flames.

[DeTRiTiC-iQ]

It would be useful if the players locations could also be a variable that could be used in speech binds (I think xmod may have featured this). So players can easily announce to their team where they are.

[DSbr-matt]

Originally posted by P4ulo
Also and since its a q3 engine, do u know how boring it is to make a vid without the possibility to do a fast forward/rewind while seeing the demos so we can extract a few secs of a demo.


yes this is also a MUST FIX. the q3 engine allows us to view the console while watching a demo and type commands in as the demo plays. it also allows for us to press f1 to f12 so we can bind commands to those keys to use during demo playback. This makes editing movies a hell of a lot more easier.

in jk2 if you press any key at all.. the demo stops. we can't even bring down the ****ing console. also pls remove the stupid "shift" + "~" combo to bring down console and put it back to just "~" like in q3.

[twl.Sphinx]

If nothing else, the demo player needs to at least be able to pause, rewind, and fast forward.
-Sphinx

[PetR-]

I agree, if raven wants to take consideration into implementing any of our ideas, flaming must be down, and should be deleted immediatly.

High hopes for raven. What has been in development so far looks awesome, and I know it will kick ass!

[The Truthful Liar]

How about this, so Raven will take our ideas seriously, I'll take all the good/correct points, research the threads, compile and edit the points. Afterwards I'll post it up as a gameplay specifications document (or in other words what should be done about different areas of gameplay; gametypes, weaponry, etc...), then get some feedback from you all for any points missed out/points which should be changed and edit accordingly. Only serious comments please. Does this sound reasonable or acceptable? Will Raven even take these points into account being so far into the development of the game?

[Jed]

Personally, I highly doubt we can change what Raven is doing this far into the game. I mean, they've got a lot of it down, and may not be able to go back and do some of the things we want.

*shrugs* :)

[The Truthful Liar]

Originally posted by Jedi220
Personally, I highly doubt we can change what Raven is doing this far into the game. I mean, they've got a lot of it down, and may not be able to go back and do some of the things we want.

*shrugs* :)

We want vs Should have. Otherwise more patches will come having to do the same thing, just later on. Perhaps Raven should think about letting certain groups for testing prior release (Gaming teams/Editing teams)? ; ) Unless Lec is against that then I suppose there's nothing that can be done except wait.

[razorace]

That would be great if people all had the same opinion on the game but they don't. You'll get confliting answers for every issue.

Sides, the game is %60 done, they're too far along to be able to make major changes and still make their release date.

[The Truthful Liar]

Originally posted by razorace
That would be great if people all had the same opinion on the game but they don't. You'll get confliting answers for every issue.

Sides, the game is %60 done, they're too far along to be able to make major changes and still make their release date.

Of course people will have different opinions. The point is what is right for gameplay. Weak sabers, random flechette fire are a couple examples of what is not right for gameplay. This is why I would research extensively, take into account all the feedback from everyone willing to provide any and give special note to the more reasonable responses.

[razorace]

Isn't determining what's "right" for the gameplay very subjective? I can understand you sending in something that has a group of players group opinion on it (with signatures) but to send something in as claiming it represents a large percentage of the players isn't honest.

Actually, the group with signatures idea is pretty good. If you can come up with a statement that I can agree with, I'll sign it. :)

[DSbrLogan]

See the thing is we arent trying to change the gameplay of a gametype we dont enjoy playing. we arent sitting around complaining about how sabers are too powerful and that if i want to use fists i should be able to kill someone that is using a saber against me.


that is specifically what saberists are doing to gametypes outside of sabers only combat. that just is not right. it would be one thing if they actually intended to use weapons other than the saber when playing in an all weapons enabled server but they dont. then they get mad that you are using other weapons enabled by the gametype. whats more than that is that they then go complain to raven and raven listens to them, ignoring the competitive community who did not feel a need to complain about anything until it was too late.


if saberists want to play with sabers thats fine and i encourage them to, since it would keep them and their rpg attitudes out of my gameworld. but on the same token dont try to plunder my gametype simply because you cant compete or are a saber junkie.

[pds.silentsoul]

well, what i've seen so far is not 1 post in total disagreement with this thread. this is obviously fantastic and Raven NEEDS to see this and realize that if people disagreed with us they would have said something. The competitive community is obviously what will keep teh game going, and encourage future players to buy the game. Hopefully raven will realize that the "saber newbies" are a minority of gamers. So far this has been an excellent discussion. Thank you all for taking the time to post.

[mortis]

I have to agree with most of these guys. The Jedi Knight series is one of my favorites. The integrated force powers and the lightsaber add to the game like no other game has before. However, i find that an unfair emphasis on the light saber is used. I think the saber is a great/fun weapon, but the game is still a First Person Shooter. All i am asking is that you consider us gunners into this next game.

[The Truthful Liar]

So am I getting a yay or nay for working on a gameplay document? Let me mention that this will be for MP only of course and mostly geared towards gameplay rather things like saber hilt choosing etc... just the 'pure' gaming aspect so to speak.

Although mixed feelings are being sent about wether Raven would even look at this thread what to speak of an entire design document for gameplay - I am completely serious to starting this if everyone (interested in improving the game from Jk2) can read what will be on the document and can (in an orderly fashion, as much as possible :P) voice their opinions on the certain sections, all will be taken into account.

Having said that, I must admit it'd be good (not to mention really helpful and informative) to know what Raven has in store for us in this sequal as well as what they intend to add or not add from our given comments and opinions.

[oasisfan]

You get a yay from me Legion. \o/ hehe :)

Ok well, how about in team games, ie ctf/tffa/cty, a script that makes different people put together each round instead of team stacking. Plus a max difference of 1 so the game wont lose it's flow.

And yes a better zoom on the disruptor is a good idea. Zoom in/out function as well. It is a bit definitive if you cant zoom out ,after u zoomed in, again ;)

I agree pretty much everything that is said on demo-ing. Watching 650 mb on demos just for a great shot that happens in minute 19.34 seconds is very boring. So plz a forward/rewind/pause/stop button.

Most of the posts are very subjective but it is all in the best interest of the game...so...

Regards,

Oasis

[P4ulo]

Yeah do it.
I think we are all talking bout MP, i personally didnt play jk2 single version till the end (i am now) cause i started playing the MP one too soon and started enjoying it. I dont mind how the single version would be and i think its pointless to tell them how to do a single version game, i ll play it anyway as long as its different from the other titles

Btw was it possible to change the POV in a already recorded demo with q3 engine? (it was possible with quake 1)

edit: Yes to choose the right gameplay is very subjective, but there are lots of things we can point that were wrong in jk2 that could be changed and make it a lot better. And we are talking bout an fps MP in order to play in ladders. If the game doesnt require any skill at all ppl dont feel like playing it, and game will die fast.
Im not saying that sabers should be removed from the game, but for instance remember an MP CTF game sabers only, its so boring.. ruins the ctf concept of fast teamwork action mod

[Agen]

You also get a Yay from me. Raven should pay attention to the thread and i've seen Chang floating around lately.

[SlapNut]

who f'n cares about guns in jk, people buy this game for something different, there arnt many games where u can kill each other wich a saber/sword is there? the majority of servers are Saber only if u havnt noticed, thats cos sabers are more fun than standing back and shooting someone hoping to hit them, im not saying guns are bad on MP games, just thay suck in JK. Games like delta force adn the up comming PlanetSide are games where guns are realy good cos they involves skill over a large area, but jk is a small map and the gun abbility gameplay is poor, so sabers rule. That my oppinion anyway, im not saying your wrong.

[The Truthful Liar]

Thanks for your opinions folks. Firstly, I'd like to wait till more people agree before starting. Secondly, where would you prefer to access the document? In a seperate thread or on a webpage which I can link to from here? I think it seems abit redundant to create a new thread where we have this, yet perhaps not.

[Necrosis]

Originally posted by SlapNut
who f'n cares about guns in jk, people buy this game for something different, there arnt many games where u can kill each other wich a saber/sword is there? the majority of servers are Saber only if u havnt noticed, thats cos sabers are more fun than standing back and shooting someone hoping to hit them, im not saying guns are bad on MP games, just thay suck in JK. Games like delta force adn the up comming PlanetSide are games where guns are realy good cos they involves skill over a large area, but jk is a small map and the gun abbility gameplay is poor, so sabers rule. That my oppinion anyway, im not saying your wrong.

No, but I'm saying your wrong.

In case you haven't noticed, the whole saber world in jk2 had NO competition. Sure, there were clans, but what did they do? They sat in pubs all day doing "honourable Jedi Combat". Compare the "saber world" of jk2, to q3. Which do you think is more popular?

I think the reason jk2 CTF was so interesting was because of the force powers. Sure, some of them were inbalanced, but it was nice to have something different in there. The saber allowing to block incoming shots was also pretty cool. I know I would not have made alot of caping runs w/o my saber.

Sure, the saber is important in a Star Wars game. But I think these things need to be fixed so that some more of the gunning people from q3, cs ect, would want to come play this game. I myself am a very competitive gamer, and I know I would get bored by repetive saber battles. :eyeraise:

Btw, you get a "yay" from me also :D . I see no harm in doing it.
:sign2:

[Necrosis]

Originally posted by SlapNut
who f'n cares about guns in jk, people buy this game for something different, there arnt many games where u can kill each other wich a saber/sword is there? the majority of servers are Saber only if u havnt noticed, thats cos sabers are more fun than standing back and shooting someone hoping to hit them, im not saying guns are bad on MP games, just thay suck in JK. Games like delta force adn the up comming PlanetSide are games where guns are realy good cos they involves skill over a large area, but jk is a small map and the gun abbility gameplay is poor, so sabers rule. That my oppinion anyway, im not saying your wrong.

agreed :D

[alarm]

Originally posted by SlapNut
who f'n cares about guns in jk, people buy this game for something different, there arnt many games where u can kill each other wich a saber/sword is there? the majority of servers are Saber only if u havnt noticed, thats cos sabers are more fun than standing back and shooting someone hoping to hit them, im not saying guns are bad on MP games, just thay suck in JK. Games like delta force adn the up comming PlanetSide are games where guns are realy good cos they involves skill over a large area, but jk is a small map and the gun abbility gameplay is poor, so sabers rule. That my oppinion anyway, im not saying your wrong.

haha, you obviously havent figured out how to aim yet

[PetR-]

Originally posted by SlapNut
who f'n cares about guns in jk, people buy this game for something different, there arnt many games where u can kill each other wich a saber/sword is there? the majority of servers are Saber only if u havnt noticed, thats cos sabers are more fun than standing back and shooting someone hoping to hit them, im not saying guns are bad on MP games, just thay suck in JK. Games like delta force adn the up comming PlanetSide are games where guns are realy good cos they involves skill over a large area, but jk is a small map and the gun abbility gameplay is poor, so sabers rule. That my oppinion anyway, im not saying your wrong.

HELLO I AM A GUNNER I CAN STILL ENJOY THE GAMEPLAY OFFERED BY SUPER MAGIC ABILITIES KNOWN AS FORCE POWERS

Logan narrowed it down in a sentence.

I understand you like to play sabers and have duels etc. But guns are a totally differen't level then saberists, so please respect that.

[The Truthful Liar]

Originally posted by Necrosis
agreed :D

Please try expand on that thought.

Originally posted by alarm
haha, you obviously havent figured out how to aim yet

alarm: He had a totally valid opinion and wasn't giving off remarks about how we can't play with sabers. That comment was uncalled for.

[Aoshi]

Legion my team and I (BF) will help you however we can. I wanna see this game be the best ever and draw on all sorts of crowds. If we talk enough Raven will have no choice but to hear us, and hey, they changed the game once for the worse by listening to the whining saberists why not change it for the better by listening to the people that actually know what they're talking about and spend alot of time around the game?

[SlapNut]

sure i respect all your oppinions, i just like sabers cos there different and involve more skill (even though i suck) i barly kill anyone but i enjoy whaling it around like an idiot, jk was made for the saber and i like that.

[contender]

Originally posted by Jedi220
Personally, I highly doubt we can change what Raven is doing this far into the game. I mean, they've got a lot of it down, and may not be able to go back and do some of the things we want.


Yes, but it can't hurt trying. As you can probably tell, the CTF Community has been far less vocal on these forums, just look at the post counts for instance. This is a great thread for getting our opinions expressed, and if that document actually gets created, there's a great chance of making a better game. I'll express my opinions when I have a little more time to post.

[DeTRiTiC-iQ]

go ahead and write that document, but make sure you include a link to this thread (after the flames have been removed naturally), that way there is proof behind your document that a lot of people agree with it.

[pds.silentsoul]

hey legion,
being the thread starter, *pats himself on the back*, i'll help you create this document if you wish. also i am totally for its creation. its not too late for raven to change the game. we aren't asking for a total graphical overhaul. we are just asking for simple tweaks to the game really. for instance to change the rocket speed, i imagine, is only a few or maybe 1 line of code. and, if raven doesn't realize to change this stuff they will have created a product that a lot of ctfers/tdmers will not play.

[Spider AL]

Nice one Legion. Me and mine are with you all the way.

Personally though I think that JO tournament-winning players and only JO tournament-winning players should be used as late beta-gameplay-testers by Raven. :D

[Agen]

Or people that got beat by spider al in tournaments...?
:D
I think should try flattening out the glitches early on and beta testers would probably do the game really good.

[Aoshi]

God what a retard... you really can tell that pG is all made up of 15 year olds. Can someone delete that post and ban him plz? thanks

p.s. just so alot of you guys know we TWLers flame each other ALOT... it's just a joke to us and we never take each other seriously so dont take Logan seriously either cause that's just what he's used to doing. Retry on the other hand... anyways whatever just delete his post

[Spider AL]

Yes, please get rid of that profanity-filled nonsense, admins. There's far too much fanboyitis creeping into the forums these days.

[The Truthful Liar]

Originally posted by Aoshi
Legion my team and I (BF) will help you however we can. I wanna see this game be the best ever and draw on all sorts of crowds.

I appreciate this very much, I believe we're aiming for the same goal here.

Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ
go ahead and write that document, but make sure you include a link to this thread (after the flames have been removed naturally), that way there is proof behind your document that a lot of people agree with it.

I shall start shortly and include a link, or perhaps I should start up a new thread? If I were moderating here *hint hint* I'd have already cleaned up this thread quickly.

Originally posted by pds.silentsoul
hey legion,
being the thread starter, *pats himself on the back*, i'll help you create this document if you wish. also i am totally for its creation. its not too late for raven to change the game. we aren't asking for a total graphical overhaul. we are just asking for simple tweaks to the game really. for instance to change the rocket speed, i imagine, is only a few or maybe 1 line of code. and, if raven doesn't realize to change this stuff they will have created a product that a lot of ctfers/tdmers will not play.

Thanks for the offer, although it'd be easier for me to compile the individual parts of the documents together myself and then post here to adress each issue one by one. Note: I will need everyone's full concentration and seriousness for this to actually work!

Originally posted by [pG]reTrY
*

What does this have to do with the thread? Good job in exposing you don't have any regard for this forum or its policies. Let me just give you a fair warning: This post will no doubt be deleted/edited soon after I get someone in here. Cheers ; )

[Agen]

Just there i went on to a fairly decent saber server (the guns ones kept kicking me, and some clan owned the sab server) to see jsut what the prob was. When i got my game the leader (was on rampage 8-0, it was up to 10) i gave him a run for his money at the beginning but he turned to the problematic tactics. It was the kicking and pulling.
The thing was, he playing fairly and things, competitive but not obsessed. When he started losing he used pull and kick.
What should be done is that you shouldn't be able to get kicked while staring straight at em, I mean the run straight into your saber and kick you, i believe that an easy way to stop this is that if you keep your eye on them it hrts them when they kick you and your sab. This would probably stop the kicking addicts.
Also the Pulling - If i was to stand any chance it was to pull at him too, so i did but what we need is some sort of counter so that they can't spam it - so like if they do it too much chances are that sometimes they miss them and it odesn't pull properly rather everytime, I think that maybe ull should pull to the ground anbd not bring them closer or bring them clsoer but not deck them.

They're just some of my suggestions in that area.

Oh yeh typings bad, i know :)

If you all agree then maybe there could be osame way we could include it in the document that Legion is writing up :)

[DSbrLogan]

what matches would those be retry? considering i am undefeated in matchplay. its not like i let some foreigner come on to a server in my country and totally destroy me and any credibility my clan had by losing to his ping and superior skills. no you merely let matt do that to you. losing to his 200 ping in front of your teammates and even begging him to join your european clan. pretty sad you needed someone with 200+ ms to actually improve your team :(

[Agen]

As much as yous like to snap at each other coudl you at least throw some suggestions and keep on topic? :)

[DSbrLogan]

in my posts i have completed a layout of the most important things, if i see any actual interest in what is said here by raven then ill prepare an even more in depth list. until then its a waste of time.

[Agen]

Well then you shouldn't really post in the thread. You could pm him :)

[[pG]reTrY]

logan just come in eruope irc and we make a fair game on ur server not @ euro like i made against meta and blow him up with 222 ping i will do the same with u if u accept

[leXX]

I have no time for this childish quibbling. DSbrLogan and [pG]reTrY - Take the argument to PM's.

[SuperSon!c]

Legion are you gonna have a a document and then make it a petition for us to sign? I think that would be the best idea.

[Agen]

Yep, and we could send it to raven with all our names on it and we could also link it in our sigs so any devs browising the board can't miss it.

[pds.silentsoul]

very good idea. if it turns into a petition i'll try and round up all my old clanmates because i've been have a discussion with them lately about jk3. and all of them said they probably wouldn't play unless the changes i outlined and DSBR outlined specifically were made. so, if this petition style thing happens i can guarentee a few signatures.

[Spider AL]

If and when it's done, I'll publicise it on the major Euro networks. Here's hoping.

[The Truthful Liar]

I can't create a petition until a good number of issues/points have been composed and adressed. Things don't happen just overnight, it will take a good day or so to work on this document (that doesn't include discussion time on the boards) so patience will be required.

I shall post up a link later tonight to where the document will be updated, I'll also put in bold quotations the topic at hand needing attention in this thread (if something is mutually agreed upon between all the members then we can move along faster on to the next topic). Or should I create another thread? (I ask this for the last time :P)

[oasisfan]

Dont create a new thread, it would become confusing I think.

[Agen]

Perhaps on certain subjects you should amke new threads.
And also i think we should round up all our ideas so we can see them clearly.

[pds.silentsoul]

a *bump* is needed every now and then. this is obviously the most in depth and meaningful thread that has been on here in a very long time. i haven't been a member long but i've read the boards for awhile. and this baby needs to be at the top :D

[Agen]

Yep, Hopefully Raven are taking notice.

[RabidPanda]

I think I'm going to like this game... :D

[razorace]

Originally posted by P4ulo

Btw was it possible to change the POV in a already recorded demo with q3 engine? (it was possible with quake 1)

Yes, just set cg_thirdperson before you start up the demo.

[The Truthful Liar]

Drdeath: Thank you for adressing the topic at hand! :|

For those who are wondering how the document is/will be coming along; let me just say that I've bought two liters of coke to help me through the night. ; )

[Agen]

Smeh... get the 3 litres of virgin coke, 4 times as much caffeine i believe ;)
And Dr death was only telling us why they're here and what trouble they are..... :/

[Aoshi]

WOO thanks legion it's great to see that we can get all aspects of varied communities to work together for the betterment of a game. If you need some help or someone to proofread or something just IM me it's in my profile. I'm a college student so i might be of some help anyways just let me know.

[Break_dF]

Finally, a non-retard post on these forums...

Here's a suggestion; actually beta test the game before you release it?... that usually works. And, when you test, use people that aren't complete idiots. I'm sure bf, dsbr, rise, fk, shock and whoever else would gladly volunteer to promote a decent game. Those clans contained some of the early "innovators," people who knew/know the engine and are quick to find exploits.

[LITE Jedi]

I think that when they started JO (JK2) they were making a FPS with sabers. This is what their whole goal should be all along. It should be more focused around guns; that seems to be the community favorite. It should be guns with sabers, not sabers with some guns. I think that the reason people don't like JK2 or just don't play JK2 very much is because the guns weren’t worth getting "leet" with. sure any new-b that has played a FPS before could just pop into the game and blow every one away, but I think what made counter-strike and other FPS games more successful is because it was very competitive, you could become very, very good at the game, and you were rewarded for it, (classic conditioning) people appreciated how much time you spent on it and how hard you worked to become good at the game. In JK3 Raven needs to definitely fix the guns issue. Meaning they need to fix, more ammo, more accuracy, speed it up.
Speeding it up could also help the saber combat and would even help the "saber only" people in this game. Also I think that the reason there are so many "saber only" games out there is because maybe they didn’t make the duel option well enough. I read the article that LEC posted about it, it is suppose to have more Jedi in combat, well maybe they could put in an option for perhaps teamed duels. But one of my main points is definitely speed up the game play. And please limit the use of force pull.

[Agen]

Personally though I think that JO tournament-winning players and only JO tournament-winning players should be used as late beta-gameplay-testers by Raven.

But i agree that perhaps the people that exploited the bugs should beta test :)
JO tournament winner mgiht be better though since they'll be more liekly to be honest than clans (they might leave a bug in to keep for themselves etc.) Not that i'm syaing that that would happen but they probably deserve it more :)

[Necrosis]

Who better to beta test the new game, than the pros of the old one ? *AHEM* :D

I think we have alot of great ideas in here, and we got get TONS of people to sign the petition. Lets do this shiet


:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

[WD_ToRMeNt]

*Sighs* Here we go again. Hello to you pds and DSbrs btw. JK2 was ok when it first came out, but yes it sucked after the patches and most of the real gamers quit. I rented the WD JK2 for 6 months and only got 2 months of play on it before I completely lost interest.

As in the development of JK2, the true hardcore gamers were far outnumber buy the star wars fan boys that just want to swing a glowing stick and pretend to be Puke Skyfaller. Hopefully Raven has noticed that JK2 MP is nothing right now, there are 10 empty servers for every one that has 3-4 players. If they are smart, they will do what they SHOULD have done with JK2; listen to the real gamers, people who play for the gameplay and not just the star wars image.

From what I've read, the game is mostly done which means that unless they've already realized certain things then there is no going back. Anyways, there would have to be a total rework of forces and guns to make JK3/JA worth playing.

[pds.silentsoul]

hey, i'd say keep hope. they do not have to release it absolutely on time. games have been pushed back before. and, its due out in the fall which means they have like 3 or 4 months of programming time to tweak the weapon systems, and force. i think the guns were OVERALL decent in jk2. my main beef with them was the ammo requirements. you were always and i mean always low on ammo. these are simple things to change and would seriously enhance the gameplay.

so just keep hope. hopefully this post will catch someone from raven's eye in a few days. i've posted on every board i can find with a link back here. i posted at www.ravenforums.com www.ravensoft.com and www.teamwarfare.com all which link to this thread. so keep your fingers crossed.

[Taos]

Leigon as you know I'm for your idea. I'd like to help out as much as I can. :) If you feel you need to start a new thread to eliminate confusion...by all means do so [even though it might not have the desired effect]. If you want to do that thread, we can have it heavily moderated.....meaning anything other then legitmate suggestions will be deleted from it.


Originally posted by Agen_Terminator
And Dr death was only telling us why they're here and what trouble they are..... :/

We're keeping an eye out. :)

[Agen]

Is that not sore?
Sorry sorry, bad joke :D

A new thread wouldn't be bad, one that would actually catch people eye rather than "my thoughts"

[The Truthful Liar]

Originally posted by pds.silentsoul
so just keep hope. hopefully this post will catch someone from raven's eye in a few days. i've posted on every board i can find with a link back here. i posted at www.ravenforums.com www.ravensoft.com and www.teamwarfare.com all which link to this thread. so keep your fingers crossed.

I hope so to, also that's a big help, thank you.

Originally posted by Leemu Taos
Leigon as you know I'm for your idea. I'd like to help out as much as I can. :) If you feel you need to start a new thread to eliminate confusion...by all means do so [even though it might not have the desired effect]. If you want to do that thread, we can have it heavily moderated.....meaning anything other then legitmate suggestions will be deleted from it.

Well personally I'd like to open up a new thread to reduce the clutter, however I'm not sure how other people would react to that. What say ye all? Yay or nay? Take into account that Silent soul has already linked this particular thread in several other websites, perhaps we should try keep things organised here?

Originally posted by Agen_Terminator
A new thread wouldn't be bad, one that would actually catch people eye rather than "my thoughts"

Well if no new thread is created perhaps change the title of this one to "GSD - Game Specifications Document", or something along those lines. :]

[BF_PaladinVII]

You guys are pretty much saying what I would say. I also agree with that document thing, sounds like a good idea. JK2 was fun for me for a while. I struggled with it, however, because of the patches. The gameplay changed so much I no longer understood how the game was played and lost interest. But the concept of JK is still very appealing and I'm looking forward to the next installment. Please Raven, take your time and don't create uber-nerfing patches.

[Break_dF]

... or change the thread title to something like: "FREE HARDCORE HENTAI GOAT CHEESE FLICKS."

that's bound to get any raven dev to take 15 minutes for a "coffee break."

...just a suggestion.

[P4ulo]

I think there s no need for a new thread but a deleting hand would be usefull before this turns into a sabers vs gunners war thread.
:band:

[leXX]

Ok Legion, tell me what you want to call the thread and I'll change it for you, and I'll keep an extra close eye on this thread and delete all irrelevant posts for you.

[DSbr-matt]

here is a good discussion on force_pull from the TWL forums. it pretty much shows the serious/competitve jk2 players opinon on the worthless power.

http://www.teamwarfare.com/forums/showthread.asp?forumid=18&threadid=34333

ya ya im banned for being a deviant socipath or something. try not to have too much fun with that one newbies.

[The Truthful Liar]

Originally posted by DSbr-matt
here is a good discussion on force_pull from the TWL forums. it pretty much shows the serious/competitve jk2 players opinon on the worthless power.

http://www.teamwarfare.com/forums/showthread.asp?forumid=18&threadid=34333

ya ya im banned for being a deviant socipath or something. try not to have too much fun with that one newbies.

Thanks, I'll look into this. I think it certainly is an important detail under the force section (yes I've started working on different sections now :P) which needs to be addressed and resolved for JK3.

[SuperSon!c]

I totally agree i think that it would of been a much better game if they would of tonned down rage/pull/push.

[DSbr-matt]

Originally posted by DSbr-matt
here is a good discussion on force_pull from the TWL forums. it pretty much shows the serious/competitve jk2 players opinon on the worthless power.

http://www.teamwarfare.com/forums/showthread.asp?forumid=18&threadid=34333

ya ya im banned for being a deviant socipath or something. try not to have too much fun with that one newbies.

hmm.. maybe you shouldnt go there on second thought. after actaully reading it, i have come to discover that it's mostly flames hehe. but Det says it best in that thread with:

"A game is fundamentally flawed when the cheapest and easiest move in the game is the only requirement for defence in public CTF"

and

"Matt isn't arguing that you need to use pull and push to win, he's saying that the game is fundamentally flawed if you need to rely on a cheap and skill-less set of moves to play."

[Agen]

After we have it nearly all done up shall we send it Raven and spread it all over the board and things?

[The Truthful Liar]

Searching for proper suggestions through some of these threads/pages is more difficult than I expected, with all the spam to wade through it's like an endless ocean. :| If (any of) you have links to supply this thread, include what part is important that should be looked into and what it deals with specifically.

[SuperSon!c]

I think that maybe if they changed absorb so that you didn't just stop that it would be a great balance because the push and pull wouldn't be much of a problem and absorb could compete with rage.

[Agen]

What the hell happened to constructive critisicm?

Ban-tha Fodder

[Break_dF]

Originally posted by de.Legion
Searching for proper suggestions through some of these threads/pages is more difficult than I expected, with all the spam to wade through it's like an endless ocean. :| If (any of) you have links to supply this thread, include what part is important that should be looked into and what it deals with specifically.

just make sure you include something about serious beta testing please... I think/hope that's a no.1 priority for raven.

[Agen]

If it's not then it should be!

[shock ~ unnamed]

Originally posted by SuperSon!c
I think that maybe if they changed absorb so that you didn't just stop that it would be a great balance because the push and pull wouldn't be much of a problem and absorb could compete with rage.

For guns that would be cool, just shoot the guy in the back as he's making for his base to cap.

But in FF/SO CTF (a widely popular game type since day one) that seems like a very frustrating scenario to me.

Grab flag, flip on absorb and speed, cap.

Even a guy with lesser evasion/jumping skills would be able to reach a base to cap effortlessly if there was no way to "delay" his movement.

[pds.silentsoul]

Legion. The information i've seen thus far that has been agreed upon by everyone is: The guns were made weaker by the first patches which changed the ammo. Push/pull/rage all need to be equaled out for a more enjoyable experience. And beta testing this game publicly or privately(but with people like pds, dsbr, and other jk2ers who aren't avid star wars fans) needs to be done to make sure the game will be an appealing ctf/tdm/ffa experience. And the saber combat needs to either be changed somehow in order for it to actually be something you'd wanna do in a all weapons server.

[Aoshi]

Originally posted by shock ~ unnamed
For guns that would be cool, just shoot the guy in the back as he's making for his base to cap.

But in FF/SO CTF (a widely popular game type since day one) that seems like a very frustrating scenario to me.

Grab flag, flip on absorb and speed, cap.

Even a guy with lesser evasion/jumping skills would be able to reach a base to cap effortlessly if there was no way to "delay" his movement.

No IF the saber did a 1-2 hit kill then it would be much easier to return the flag, so then the game would revolve around which team has the best flag returners (which is based on individual saber skill). This would be perfect for saberists because it would be mainly a so/ffa but with a purpose. This all hinges on sabers being more powerful though, so naturally cappers would be able to get away but then they'd actually have to defend themselves instead of running around getting team healed and team energized.

[shock ~ unnamed]

I played SO/CTF back in 1.03 a little and I do admit the games were much more fun and had a faster pace because of the back stab.

It was kind of like the saber version of instagib CTF.

Regardless of absorb though I think push/pull should function with "gun like" physics.

As in the cross hair needs to be on them for it to even function.

I also think the range needs to be shortened to something like the level 3 drain range.

Being able to stand 100 yards away and just pull in the general direction is kind of dumb.

[P4ulo]

Maybe we should get a poll going on with the main changes and put everyone to vote on and send the results too to support it

ex:
- Should force push/pull be toned down: yes/ no / dont care
- Should be added new weapons..
- Should any weapon be removed..
etc
and all the mentioned stuff in here

[legameboy]

there needs to be more JEDI moves like the reborn did and more, we need to be able to even kick or punch if we want

[pds.Yahweh]

I agree with alot of what has been said, but just so Raven gets the message I'll give a post. Playing in the JK2 community from start to finish I feel I represent many of the viewpoints held by its various members. Starting with PDS helped me pick up the game quickly and watching the community grow pre-1.03 days was great. The game had few things that truly annoyed me besides the gun for ammo thing, which was of course never fixed. 1.03 was released and then just like that it was gone. PDS pretty much dropped out of existence and various other clans vanished. I eventually played for Valar and then a quick stint with pds(comeback) in the end, but nothing was like the early days.


Force powers were probably well intentioned, but made no sense at all...Push/Pull was so ridiculous and has been mentioned so many times I do not need to delve more...Speed and Rage need to be in check with Push/Pull, not one dominated the other...Speed needs to be less mana, the game turned into who could die the quickest after using one of those powers...just get rid of dumb force powers like protect or whatever the heck it was called...Lighting was dumb...Absorb was fine, but I never liked how it would stop u mid-air when u got pulled/push (is it possible to have different degrees of absorb so that push/pull wouldnt effect u?)...I wont go into all of the force powers, but u guys know which ones were flat up retarted and need to be majorly revised aka push/pull, shield.

I rarley used sabers so I wont discuss them to much. I always thought it was useless to have so many stances, moves etc... for soemthing not used in ctf multi-player on a competitive level . Of course saberist multi-player will differ, just get rid of alot of the garbage for ctf play.

Ammo needs to be changed so you can pick it up with a gun. I always liked the weapons other than the disrupter. What a piece of garbage. Make it a rail gun (q3).

Thats all for now. Hopefully JKIII will be awesome.

---Yahweh---

[Necrosis]

de.Legion, hopefully this will help. I'll outline most of the good points made.

-"The Fletchette should have one direction for its shot, and not have a different direction each time you shoot it. Those balls go differen’t places randomly each time, and if it would just go the direction you aim, it would be perfect."- PetR

-"Make pull cost more, or put a delay after its use, or make it have to be aimed with the crosshair, or all of the above."
-twl.Sphinx I would like to add to this thought by saying that alot of people have also suggested that force pull delay the persons movements that you are using it on, rather just have it take away their weapons, or maybe just not such a dramatic delay.

-"And make Team Energize balanced, in JK2 two players using TE constantly can get unlimited force." -makli

-"Perhaps the return of the concussion rifle is an idea ?" -oasisfan

-"definately. replace that ****ty 2ndary repeater lob shot with the good old conc" - DSbr-matt

-"Another thing raven should consider is add some life to 1v1. In quake 3, alot of people were into 1v1. It also had some of the biggest tournaments. Which advertises companys, which makes raven money . " -PetR

-"Make fast paced 1v1 for JA
Make a variety of maps with different trick jumps etc. (Oaisis FF and BGJ did get a little boring after many years you know! )."
-PetR

-"Increase saber damage and uphold that area of gameplay, but PLEASE dont nerf our aspect of gaming (full force CTF) in favor of others." -Aoshi

-"Please make more and bigger open maps where we can jump around and enjoy playing. So many maps are incredibly small or cramped that they are very hard to enjoy. Also if you make another smaller type map like CTF_Imperial please never again put a large shield booster in the base. , also very much so agree with Logan on the aspect of sticking to walls. I hated that I would be strafing along full speed and then accidentally bump a wall and stick to it thus completely reducing my velocity to zero (and even moving me backwards a bit).

-" Please if the rocket launcher reappears, do something about the rocket exploit (where you get a partial circle with secondary switch to saber switch back to rocket and fire primary)" - PetR

-"Disruptor damage should be increased." - alarm

-"If nothing else, the demo player needs to at least be able to pause, rewind, and fast forward. -Sphinx

-"Here's a suggestion; actually beta test the game before you release it?... that usually works. And, when you test, use people that aren't complete idiots." -Break_dF



Hope that helps a little, might save you some time searching though this.

If anyone else has something to add, go ahead.

[Shaggy1984]

How about for guns, location specific damage in multiplayer. It was in singleplayer. So why not the same in Multiplayer. I really found it rather frustrating to snipe someone in the head with a fully charged rifle, and it having no extra effect than to say hit them in the leg :confused:

Also how about for gunner a skill system, in the vein of promod. You specify what sort of gunner you want to be. One who proficient in pistols, gadgets, rifles, heavy weapons, demolitions, electronics, heavy armor, recon etc...

Replacing the force power selection.

Majorly upping the thermal det damage :D

How about the blind grenades from Mots

Also how about upping the energy weapon damage (pistol, St Rifle etc.) just a bit. I'd also rather see a wider range of weapons from the existing SW universe. Rather than seeing new made up weapons with crazy effects.

A wider range of gadgets. Grappling hook, jetpack, deployable ammo/shield stations, deployable turrets, Radar etc.

A better sniper rifle that can kill in one head shot despite having full armour.

A peak move for gunners.

How about also having a weapon limit of 2-3 weapons tops. Rather then enabling gunners to be a walking arsenal.

More interactive multiplayer levels. Lights, traps, turrets etc.

Give the gunner some athletic moves, roll, Sprint, edge cling, back to wall (in 3rd person), Quick shot (from back to wall) , Peek etc.

Oh and also how about weapon recoil.

Perhaps a stamina system, allowing Gunners to have a quick burst sprint, roll, etc.

Thats a few of my ideas for guns Multiplayer, I know this is asking way to much, but what the hell :D

I'll be back with my ideas for sabres later :D

[The Truthful Liar]

Thanks for the outlines Necrosis. Don't doubt I'm not reading these, as a matter of fact I'm writing down outlines on paper, discussing them with a couple people and working on the document simotaneously as I type this (God bless coke). :-)

[DeTRiTiC-iQ]

I just had a thought which *may* work, but I can't stress enough that this idea would need serious beta-testing.

Change pull/push so that instead of instantly changing the motion of the target an actual force is applied to them in the relative direction of the force power. The longer the player holds the pull/push button, the greater the effect on the target, if pull/push gets to a fully charged state, the player literally flies back (as in the current state of the power). Naturally the longer you hold pull/push the more mana it uses, start off with at about 10 for tapping (slows the target down) but increase to about 50 for a full charge. Oh and of course, the player has to be directly targetting the enemy too.

Advantages:
- Not easily spammed, simply hammering the pull key will only have a minor effect on the enemy
- Requires skill and accuracy, not only do you have to target the opponent initially but you have to be able to follow their movements to get the most out of the powers
- More realistic and believable, and mimics the effort a Jedi has to put in to fully manipulate an object/person as opposed to gentle coercion.
- The target can tell when they are being pulled long before the full effect kicks in, so they have a couple of seconds to react (dodge, jump, attack the player) before being fully in the grasp of the power.
- Any more?

Disadvantages:
- Still doesn't solve the problem of rage usage (short of removing the power altogther or limiting the player to either rage or speed on at once but not both, I don't have much of a clue here)
- Not newbie friendly... oh wait, this should be in advantages!

Where do Rage and Absorb fit in?:
- Absorb: Absorb makes it require a larger charge to manipulate the target and the overall effect is weaker, but a full charge is fully capable of seriously slowing down an enemy's movement.
- Rage: Rage makes the player easier to move and the effect of a full charge is to literally throw the target in the relevant direction.

I expect this idea has some flaws, but since its unlikely Raven will remove pull/push altogether, this is all I can think of.

[DSbr-matt]

Originally posted by shock ~ unnamed
Regardless of absorb though I think push/pull should function with "gun like" physics.

As in the cross hair needs to be on them for it to even function.


ya that might be a good idea. maybe, like a gun, push/pull could shoot some sort of magical force projectile where you would have to hit the target for it to work.

[PetR-]

Hey de.Legion, if you need any help what so ever on what you are typing up, please... contact me on aim : petrm88

What people have said so far is excellent.

Also could a moderator please sticky/stuck (whatever you want to call it lol ) this thread.

:D

[The Truthful Liar]

Anyone who wants to be part of live discussion for the GSD tomorrow please join #JK3 on quakenet, no arranged time as of yet. The GSD topics have been set, I've written well into 4 pages of details in my notebook.

I hope to use portions of these notes and include them into their related topic issues. One liter of coke (the 1.5 kind) left to go, I might just have to leave this one till tomorrow night since the time is already 4 AM here. :]

If you want to help I suggest coming online to IRC tomorrow and in the meantime please keep those highlights coming if there are more available, otherwise, I'll just collect everything in the past 3-4 pages in this thread and write those down as well on top of the notes I've written down so far.

Cheers to all here who helped and for your great support, I really do hope this makes a difference and that we're not only dreaming.

Just as a reminder, tomorrow besides the live discussion, (it'd be alot easier for you all if you could join though) certain highlights will be posted here from the GSD and everyone can give their own opinions on that specific topic/issue. If the general concensus is a favourable one then we can proceed onto the next topic, if not, then we discuss further. G'night everyone!

[Zodiac]

hmm.. If Raven manages to create a sabersystem that works perfect and is great fun.. and they manage to create a gunning system which is also fantastic.. then they should stick to it and don't change it just to balance it with another system.

Most of you will think:"well duh, that's obvious, if it's great don't change it" ..

But what I'm trying to say here is that if they manage to create those 2 great settings (like great Guns No Force and great Sabers No Force), that work great and are terrific fun when the player only chooses to play only guns or to play only sabers, but don't really work well when the player chooses to gun-and-saber at the same time, then don't change it just to balance it so the gun-and-saber option will work. If guns/sabers only is great fun, and guns with sabers is mediocre fun, don't sacrifice and edit the great fun to turn that other mediocre fun into 'just good' fun.

Like.. imagine they create this great new rifle, and it's loved by all the gunners out there....and all of a sudden this great new rifle gets removed, because it's not balanced in an all weapons (guns&sabers) -setting... I think removing that new great gun would be wrong.

I say: Don't focus too much on the balancing of all the settings so they can be used simultaneously

I say: Focus on what makes each setting real real fun on its own, then stick to that and don't change a great and fun attribute when it doesn't seem to be working in a setting that combines multiple settings. (like.. you have 1 setting: NF Sabers, and you have multiple settings: FF all weapons).

And I think they should start their development-process by separating each setting (Force, Guns and Sabers) and tweaking each setting so that each setting is great fun and absolutely perfect on its own.
Then later they should start to focus on looking how the settings can be combined, and if the combination of 2 or more settings can't be done without sacrificing a great attributte of the single setting, then don't try to combine em and live with the fact that not everything can be balanced. That is reality I guess, not everything can be balanced.

[Jolts]

Biggest thing for me that they can impove on is to make everything move and feel solid in the gameworld. JO was too slippery, to floaty in sp and mp, nothing was grounded, nothing had weight to it.

Force jump you just lifted up off the ground like noclip was enabled, no weight in it or speed or timing. Everything moved in even speed with no ease in or out, no actions had ancipation to them.

Instead of swivling your hips and runing to the side for the strafe animation, how about an actual side step?

[Zodiac]

Yes yes, Jolts has a good point here. Because of the floating feeling I also had the idea that movement was just real slow in the game. Your character had the animation of running, but I never felt he was going fast.

Also... they should work on different speeds, like moving backwards should be slower than moving forward.

[Doctor Shaft]

I'm glad all the 'pro' players are giving their opinions. I agree wholeheartedly with everyone that this game needs to go back to its JK roots to an extent (not entirely).

Guns:
They need to be powerful, they need a good amount of ammo, they need to be fast. Damage needs to be high. In addition, the reduced feedback damage needs to be REMOVED. I can't tell you how annoying this game got when I would actually time a well placed push that shoved a guys projectile right in his face before it even got 3 feet out, only to get nothing out of it because he only takes 60% damage. This is just wrong. If we're going to be talking about skill, then we need to take out all the handicaps. I'm okay with everyone's "make the game skillful" stuff, so long as as we cover all aspects. That means no "golan rushes". You kill somone up close, you need to die too. 100% feedback, please!

Sabers:
A touchy subject. The bottom line is this: the sabers need to be fast, furious, and deadly. That's it. 1-2 hit kills. Who cares if blue stance ends up tearing people up, etc. We can't have this "hit me 3-4 times" crap. Why do the l33t gunners hate saberists? Because they waste time, that's why. "Saber battles are boring" is the common mantra among good players. They are boring because they are slow, long winded, and when people lock into a battle, it wastes time. Saber battles need to be as short as gun battles. That's the only way anyone is going to accept their existence in competitive play. I played JK2++ awhile back because it was both fast, guns had ammo (this was during 1.03 days), speed cost was reduced, AND the sabers did a huge load of damage. This meant that I could use my saber and kill the gunners. It was hard, but I could do it in one good swing. It needs to be like this. They can blow me away from almost any range, but if I close, I should get my kill.

The thing a lot of gunners are saying is "give the saberists their stuff, but focus on the guns, respect our game aspect". I respect your aspect. I HATE saber only servers. I don't like saber only combat. I LOVE using my saber, along with a disruptor and thermal detonators, against gunners. So long as you give me the ABILITY to get kills in a high speed, competitive game, I'll be happy. The gunners like to use guns only a lot. They say saberists are awful because they won't use any other weapons. Fair enough, I recognize when I need to use guns to accomplish the job, but gunners have to recognize that while they love their guns, I love my sabers, and I just want to have the ability to use it in a fast paced, murderous way. Thats' all I want. On the other hand, if they want us to use guns so badly, then I want them to have to use the saber sometimes as well; you know, in those rare situations; or face death. No damage reductions. No super blocking. Deadly sabers, paper thin blocking is good for me.

Force Powers:
Detritic's pull/push thing is a good idea, along with the idea of having to aim like a gun. The area effect helps with pushing projectiles back. However, in order for the effect to hurt others, it should need to be aimed.

Otherwise, force powers need to be powerful but rare. JO had tons of force power spam Some powers were entirely useless (lightning, mind trick) while others motivated the entire game (rage, speed, absorb). There's no doubt that neutral powers should be the dominant influences of the game. Speed and jumping, the stuff that makes us move. Stuff like Rage was over the top. CTF became a use/or lose kind of thing. You either had absorb, or you had rage. Rage making me fire guns faster was silly. Neutrals should be powers that I can use a lot (minus push/pull). Specials should be things that I can use sparingly, but have a useful effect. Stuff like protect was almost a waste of time. Give us powers that have immediate, short ranged powerful effects at a high cost and difficult set up. I think that would be good. Dousing people with 20 seconds of lighting wasn't cool.


Guns/Sabers/Force Power Settings:
The one gross disadvantage a saberist ever had was that a gunner who didn't like his lightsaber could just forgo it and have superior force powers. I'm all for the gunner/saberist/etc. having force powers. But having to pay a high price for my saber, especially when it's not an uber weapon in any sense, and then watching the gunners completely over power me in both force and firepower is annoying. Just give us the saber moves. Defense/Offense should just be cut. The guy who forgoes the saber moves is actually at an advantage in JO, because frankly, he doesn't need the glowstick to win. Just give it to us for free. Let me select which saber i carry, and that would be the end of it. It won't hurt anyone. We want the fast paced game where you need to use all the weapons to win, so placing a penalty on saber use is unnecessary.

that's all i have to say about that...

[shock ~ unnamed]

Originally posted by DSbr-matt
ya that might be a good idea. maybe, like a gun, push/pull could shoot some sort of magical force projectile where you would have to hit the target for it to work.

I think that would be called L.A.P.D tazer power.


But simply having your push/pull key not even function unless the cross hair is lit (think grip) would eliminate a lot of the retards who just stand there mashing the Hell out of it.

Sure you could still mash the keys but it won’t fire off 5 pulls in a row rapidly unless you are able to track the guy with your cross hair as he moves, and how many noobies can do that?

A closer range system would also help.

If you had to actually get within level 3 drain/lightning range (around 10 feet out max) maps like ctf_ns_streets would not be an issue for pull/push whoring.

Sure you could still send a guy over the edge but not unless you got pretty damn close.

[Aoshi]

Nice post Shaft and i agree wholeheartedly. I would LOVE to use my saber as more than a shield. Mindtricking a flag carrier then sneaking up on him and sabering him would be complete and utter ownage, but in order to do this the saber needs to be what it is: a glowing sword of pure energy. You dont get hit by a huge blade of energy and then get hit again and again... and again... and oops again. This change would be for the better in both CTF, Duel and any other SO gametypes. Instead of running around swinging madly people would then have to time their attacks, dodge, feign attacks, retreat and fake advance. In all, duels would be strategic manipulation JUST LIKE SWORDFIGHTING ACTUALLY IS. In kenjutsu one strike kills. That is the nature of the sword. The sword is meant to deliver one blow and all swordart is centered around being able to deliver that blow. You dont try to hit an opponent 5 times in real sword fighting because after 1 hit (if you're any good) they should be dead.

This brings me to another point. Add in buttons for faking. What i mean by this is add in a button that gives a quick animation such as a quick sidestep and then back to original position. This would really be good in duels if implemented correctly as you could then fake out your opponent and strike him when he's least ready or when he has exposed a weak spot.

Also another suggestion i would make is to have SEPARATE force powers for dueling and then for CTF/FFA. This would make dueling a completely independant aspect of JA and would force duelist to go to duel servers. Forces like this could be such things as "Force Illusion" where multiple copies of your player are produced but vanish when you strike. "Force Boost" where you gain a tremendous boost in speed for 1-2 seconds. "Force Stun" where you can momentarily stun your opponent and force his guard down. "Force Distortion" where you create a gravity field using the force and thus exert a slight pull towards a certain point on the map for a period of 5 or so seconds. Also "Force Blind" could be brought back as a duel only force and other things such as this that would greatly improve the strategic element of dueling. Also for the duel forces i would suggest taking out pull/push as they lead to quirky little bugs like pullthrow (which i dont really care about but if saber throw did as much damage as it should would be too much of an advantage)

This leads to my next suggestion. upping the damage of saber throw significantly... I mean to like 75-90 damage significance. Also if pull/push is taken out of dueling the speed of saber throw should also be improved. This would be a BIG equalizer between gunners and saberists as 2 well placed throws would kill a gunner.

One final suggestion is this. If force lightning makes a reappearance have it so that the central area of level 3 lightning does tremendous amounts of damage(like 2-3x as much as it does now). What i mean by central area is the area that lightning would affect with level 2 lightning. Then the periphery lightning could remain the same damage and that would be like splash damage. If this were implemented, people would have to AIM their lightning instead of just spam it and upper level players could use it to actually kill people and it would be infinitely more useful.

In conclusion I am all for the betterment of both sides of the arguement. I want to see duel become a great gametype that even gunners will want to play from time to time and similarly I want to see sabers be used in CTF games as something other than a shield. I also would like for duelists to go to their own servers and having independant forces for dueling would drastically influence this. I really hope Raven listens to us.

[Doctor Shaft]

Well, at this point it seems that the Raven people are putting in a few saber 'gimics' already.

You'd think we'd just get a double staff, but you can apparently switch one blade off and use it. You can wield two sabers and throw one at people. Yada yada. Saber combat seems to be getting heavy.

I just hope the saber battle times won't be getting heavy either. That kind of stuff should be reserved for someone's personal duel server. Oth