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View Full Version : Saber blocking, manual, or automatic?


Silent_Thunder
04-06-2003, 06:54 PM
What kind of saber blocking do you hope will be in JA, or (a real) JKIII?

Automatic, like in Jedi Knight, Mysteries of the Sith, and Jedi Outcast where attacks are automatically parried, or deflected if you're not attacking, but you have little control over it...

Or Manual, the likes of which would be seen in other sword fighting games, where the secondary fire manually blocks an incoming attack?

Agen
04-06-2003, 07:14 PM
Well i think, it's fine for SP (keeping auto), but in mp maybe it would be good to press the button rather than the strange block box around you. Also you can only attack when you don't press it, and holding block down might make moving the mouse slower....

Jedi Apprentice
04-06-2003, 07:15 PM
I think manual blocking would be a very fun idea and would give the system some new light, but it would make all the fights extremely slow. And how exactly do you manually block two sabers or a cheap backstab? :)

CanadianSurfer
04-06-2003, 07:24 PM
Manual would throw a new twist into the game. Playing guns can be frustrating because if they have their saber up, it's hard to break their defenses with a non-explosive gun.

Jolts
04-06-2003, 07:27 PM
In the most basic form of recreation in of the movie battles I see it like this. If I see the enemy swing at me, I hit block, my animation looks like an actual attack, but it ends up meeting the other saber animation midway colliding. Give it quick pause to sell the fact that it was clear and obvious block and then release to pull back to the stance pose.

In JO the blocks were 2 frames of an actuall swing animation that were always close to the body. You need block specific animations not recyled time savers. This is just how I see it of course.

Silent_Thunder
04-06-2003, 07:59 PM
This is the way I think manual blocks would work:

You press the secondary fire and you bring your saber up in a block position. The long you hold the block button down the less chance you have of sucessfully blocking the attack, untill you are forced to lower your defences. Therefore, that forces people do use more skill and timing to have more effective blocks -- as opposed to just random blocks.

Since the block button would be right next to the fire button you'd be able to switch between an attack and a block very quickly.

A succesfuly block would make the opponent slightly less capable of blocking your next attack in return -- a succesfuly block would knock the opponent's defences down for a second. That causes 2 person fights to be more up close and personal, since you'd WANT to land a block in order to kill your foe. Evading attacks alltogether -- which is very non movie like -- would not be as practical, so no more jousting.

When two sabers colide, with both fighters doing an attack, and not a block then the saber simply block each other, and no one is penalized.

When a lightsaber wielding person has his saber out, and is hit by another saber, than there is a slight chance the saber will automatically block, provided the saber is close enough to the attempted attack. That would be in defence against attacks going through an ignited saber.

When a single lightsaber wielding opponent is blocking a two lightsaber wielding player, the one with 1 saber would block it in the same manner in which automatic blocking would be.

Anyways, that's the way I would see it working, it would still retain nearly all of the speed of JO (heck, anything is faster than a heavy versus heavy fight), while implementing alot less random deaths, making fights more calculated and strategic.

eastcoast2895
04-06-2003, 08:06 PM
i think manual blocking should be an option in both single player and multiplayer, sort of like auto aim, but in multiplayer it would be a server only option. also i agree w/ Silent_Thunder cuz some ppl could hold block all day and making it the longer holding block = less accuracy seems like a great idea.

Agen
04-06-2003, 08:07 PM
That's a really good system you have there silent :)
Hopefully Raven take notice. You mgiht want to add that to the gameplay suggestions too Thunder :)

greedo626
04-06-2003, 08:15 PM
I think scince a Jedis let the Force flow through them, saber blocking should be automatic, like it comes naturally. though I do think there should be an option to turn it off if you want.

Silent_Thunder
04-06-2003, 08:15 PM
Thanks, but it's actually pretty much the way that old PS1 game... Jedi Power Battles (note; I'm not advocating buying it) did it. So the accuracy thing isn't really my idea :).

Silent_Thunder
04-06-2003, 08:21 PM
Well, an option to turn it off when you want to wouldn't really work... The game would have to be designed with either system, or have them both intergrated in some way.

Also, since all you do is press a block button in my idea, and the blocking system would automatically counter a high, low, side, ect attack than you could still say the "force is flowing through them". Remember old Obi Wan about the force: "(You mean it controls my actions?) Partially, but it also obeys your commands" ;).

CanadianSurfer
04-06-2003, 08:38 PM
Saber blocking should take up force.

greedo626
04-06-2003, 08:38 PM
I think autoblocking could be turned off like autoaiming. though I enjoy my autoblocking so I wouldn't want to turn it off. there's nothing quite like walking into a room full of stormies with your lightsaber out and deflecting every single shot back at them:D . dance, stormies, dance!:D

Silent_Thunder
04-06-2003, 09:03 PM
If they do include autoblocking again, I really hope they do what CanadianSurfer suggested; having a succesful block use up mana.

There's nothing (In my humble opinion :)) more stupid than walking into a room of 100 stormtroopers and easily deflecting every single one of them without breaking a sweat. It was worse in JK1, but it's still pretty bad. I think if there's a loose 'timer' on the amount of time you can block than that would solve that problem, and force players to actually go in and ingage their enemies, instead of just standing there...

AlzWisHum
04-06-2003, 09:08 PM
I'd go for both in multiplayer/singleplayer games, except for manual blocking I'd rather do not tap on the block key, but hold it down instead, the player won't be able to attack while it is held.

Hope they do something like this. :cool:

Jolts
04-06-2003, 09:23 PM
In obiwan you could block autoblock some saber attacks, but someone could always just kick you and take health off that way or use a forced charged special saber attack. In order to really open someone up to a full on attack you had to use the force and pull back on the right thumb stick which was the block command, and deflect blaster fire back at shooter command. It worked well and only used up a little bit of force mana.

Tesla
04-06-2003, 09:31 PM
Automatic because you would have to waist time keep blocking manually *damn button where is it* any way back on topic my vote goes to automatic :D

Hekx
04-06-2003, 09:39 PM
I have yet to see the manual blocking system in place.
I think I'll have to see it and play it before I decide.
Having some people with automatic, and others manual can be a little unbalanced.
But automatic is false, and unrealistic.

I think I may have to opt for manual blocking with alt-fire. ;)
Maybe a meter of power, which eventually 'conks' out after deflecting too much. Allowing you to control the angle too.

Jedi Power Battles had a manual block ability, which worked well.

AlzWisHum
04-06-2003, 09:53 PM
Originally posted by Hèkx Nòxú
Having some people with automatic, and others manual can be a little unbalanced.
But automatic is false, and unrealistic.


I agree. This manual/auto blocking could be simply set on the server side. Heck, if they won't do it, my next mod will support it.

;)

eastcoast2895
04-06-2003, 09:55 PM
i'm just saying alt fire may not work cuz it probably be binded to saber throw like in jo, but then again what do i know. but one thing i don't like about manual block is what Tesla Trooper said about waisting time. not only using another button, but also when fighting a bunch a jedi at once, it may become hard to remember to block manual while trying to evade attacks and attacking.

Silent_Thunder
04-06-2003, 09:59 PM
Well, saber throw would be made just a normal force power, like in MotS.

I don't think it would make things THAT much more complicated to remember manual blocking. After awhile it would become like second nature.

And as one of the above posters said; manual blocking worked well in Jedi Power battles.

AlzWisHum
04-06-2003, 10:04 PM
Yes, you'll probably get used to the block key. IMHO its better than "random" defense.

:lsduel:

RenegadeOfPhunk
04-06-2003, 11:10 PM
If anybody would like to try out Manual Blocking on the right mouse button, feel free to try out my mod...

Details are in this thread:
Movie Battles Thread (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=94813)

Link to the site to download the mod is at the top of the thread.

Although it's still technically a beta, this latest build (Build 7) is looking pretty solid and bug-free so far, so it's very close to a proper release build.

As far as I'm concerned, having a manual block button is a very good thing...

Anyway, feel free to check it out :)

Tesla
04-06-2003, 11:17 PM
AUTOMATIC,AUTOMATIC,AUTOMATIC!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

Rad Blackrose
04-06-2003, 11:50 PM
Screw blocking.

If you are really going to be concentrating on saber to saber combat, then you wouldn't even consider blocking/parrying. Why?

The best duelists do not get touched at all. This goes back to old european dueling

Evasion will always win over a defense.

However, since it it not available... I would say automatic.

Tesla
04-06-2003, 11:56 PM
I will just say in a game like this with a weapon as powerful as a lightsaber (i.e it can cut through things) your gonna concentrate more on trying to chop up your opponent arent't you than waisting time trying to block as i said before (look up thread) ;)

Taos
04-07-2003, 12:03 AM
I think they should keep it automatic. If it is manual....it becomes too much and it really isn't a game anymore IMO. Too much realism is a bad thing......I think.

eastcoast2895
04-07-2003, 12:43 AM
I think Leemu Taos has a really good point. This is a game, if i really wanted to sword fight i would get a sword, not that i'm saying i think manual is bad or anything (look at prev post for side), but it is a game and sometimes i just wanna have fun and get lazy, and manual blocking does not allow me to be lazy, but then again sometimes i do want a challenge, but what ever raven will do what's best for game play, which ever it is.

AlzWisHum
04-07-2003, 12:48 AM
But it wouldn't be a bad thing having both would it? :(

Silent_Thunder
04-07-2003, 01:25 AM
Well, about the "Its just a game, I don't want to think aspect":

I won't try and tell you what kind of gameplay is best suited for anyone in particular, or what kind of game system is best overall, but if you really just want to sit back and be lazy in a computer game set in the Star Wars universe, then why don't you just play KotoR or SWGs? Where does it become "too much work" or too little?

Anyways, I think most people in favor of automatic blocking misunderstand the logic behind manual. You see, it isn't there to make things harder or more complex for the sake of realisim. We wouldn't be having a discussion about sabers if that were the case.

No, the reason for it is to make the outcome of saber duels less random, and based around calculated, strategic moves. Remember, in multiplayer, you can't just stand around laziliy to win. You have to exhort some kind of effort to win in multiplayer. Why not go the extra step and remove the frusterating randomness of automatic blocking in multiplayer? Surely that would make the game 'easier' in the sense that you spend more time having fun, and less time saying; "WTF I blocked that motherf$@#er!".

Also, don't get me started about the "in real life, evasion is always superior to blocking argument". First of all, these are lightsabers, and our only definition of lightsabers are what we see in the movies. In the movies ATLEAST 90% of the battles between two lightsaber wielding opponents CLASH sabers when they strike. Very rarely will you see a true evasion. Also, in real life, fights are usually won or lost within 20 seconds of its initiation. In Star Wars lightsaber battles can last 5 minutes or more in continous action, sometimes without a victor!

And in real life, blocking attacks (wether with the sword or in martial arts) can be just as, or more effective than evasion. When you block an attack you can either take all their energy that they put into their attack, and use it against them (Yin blocks in Kung Fu [San Soo]) by going *with* their attack; taking their balance, or you can absorb and destroy their ability to inflict damage with a block that is directly putting power against power (Yang blocks). Although evasion in martial arts can be effective you don't really take any of their energy away by evading an attack. It just sets them up for a second attack of the same power (that is unless you take them out before they have a chance).

But in Jedi knight games a manual block would be little more than a player-initiated auto block. Meaning you don't aim the block like a regular strike, or even necissarily time it perfectly. You just simply tell the computer (by pressing the secondary fire key) when you want to block, and the rest is left up to randomness (though much less than pure autoblocking).

Really, in my opinion, manual blocking would not only add a huge dimention to multiplayer (and single player) if done correctly, but it would also make the battles MUCH more like true Star Wars lightsaber battles, and less like jousting contests.

Silent_Thunder
04-07-2003, 01:36 AM
On a similar subject, am I the only one that thinks its cazy having saber throw as the secondary fire? I mean, really, we see it done in the movie once, and in an extreemly ineffective manner (sorry Lord Vader!). And all of a sudden 'throwing away' your offence, and defence becomes one of the most damaging moves around! It becomes waaay overused I think. I think it should be used for limited occasions, such as when someone is running away.

Maybe I'll just play with the lightstaff then... atleast they get kicks on secondary fire instead of saber throw.

eastcoast2895
04-07-2003, 02:07 AM
i agree with you that manual block would cause better more intense fights, which would be great. that's why i want both.

i can also see your point as secondary fire being saber throw being not as good as binding something else. actually i am beginning to believe a manual block being on secondary fire being better since it deals w/ saber combat more than saber throw which is more a force power like lightning or choke. if there is a manual i completely agree that it should be secondary, i don't even use saber throw, so w/ manual block there i would have more fun.

looking at my former post, my example about wanting to really fight with a sword and stuff was over the top, i was trying to much to argue auto.

but all in all i believe auto block is like auto aiming. some people want it cuz it makes it easier and they can enjoy the game more and some want it off cuz it is harder and they can enjoy the game more. i really think it should be an option that can be turned off and on. which i would most likely choose manual (still want the option of auto though).

and my comment about its a game and not wanting to think, i'm just saying that if things get to complicated it won't be fun, that all wasn't trying to say your idea was bad or anything. In fact Silent_Thunder your idea of manual block is the same as mine, and hopefully they will put it in like that, but making it the only choice of blocking is kinda unfair to the players who want auto block cuz it is a game that is suppose to fun for everyone. I guess i am afraid that manual block would have to be done in a way that it would require pressing more than one button.

oh yeah just to defend kotor and swg (i won't probably play either) but in my experience rpgs use strategy in fights knowing which action to do (i.e. fight, heal, etc.) so it wouldn't be as lazy as i am (nothing will be that lazy cept maybe garfield).

strange i appear to be on a different side than you, Silent_Thunder, even though my first post was agreeing w/ your thoughts on manual.

oh yeah just so no confusion:
i want manual and auto block.
manual would be fun, as long as it doesn't get complicated
auto should be there for ppl who want it

Khaza
04-07-2003, 03:06 AM
Very nice suggestions there Silent Thunder! IMO the current automatic blocking feels like cheap autoaim.

OK.. here is my idea of blocking system:

- Possibility to choose between auto and manual

- Automatic must be weaker than manual and is designed for all inexperienced padawans out there

- Manual for serious fighters that want to have full control over their saber and thus little better but need pressing secondary fire everytime you want to block

- No attacking while defending

- Move saber throw to force list if using manual blocking


(voted for manual)

AJL
04-07-2003, 03:31 AM
I think it should be automatic like in JK2 but even more
"automatic..." It should be extended to work also when
attacking (or not really during the attack but during the
move from ready position to attack start position...)

--------------------------------------

And when blocking projectiles:
1. when you do nothing that saber will only stop that
projectile or slash it to some random direction...

2. when you actively slash that projectile it still doesn't
go back to it firer but it goes to that direction where you
are looking (so when you slash it back you can aim it a
little..)

(but when you slash it back there is risk that you slash
too early which will cause that you don't block it at all)

--------------------------------------

And when blocking other saber:
1. when you do nothing that saber will simply stop or
knock that other saber back...

2. when you slash it you may get in to saber "lock" which
is not exactly like that normal total lock but this lock can
happen in many different ways and you can always
backoff from it by releasing that attack button
and retreating...

Silent_Thunder
04-07-2003, 03:33 AM
Sorry if I sounded at all hostile in my last post Eastcoast2895 :).

I actually kind of agree with you about adding manual and automatic blocking... But it would be hard to build the game around BOTH kinds of fighting, I think. It would really change the gameplay a lot to switch between the two in an option on the fly. Not that it couldn't be done that way, though.

One way they could implement both Auto, and manual blocking is to give auto block for padawan and jedi difficulty, but give manual blocking to jedi knight and jedi master difficulty (provided they use the same difficulty system). That way those who want it a little easier, and just want to have fun and not worry about 'too' complicted saber combat can have it. Those who want to play the game on a harder setting, and want to worry about more intense saber fighting can have it. In multiplayer this could be an option that could be toggled on and off for the host.

Another option would be to make different saber stances have different degrees of auto or manual blocking. For example, let's say they implement all 8 saber stances. Here is how each could work in terms of blocking:

Form 2 would have completely no auto blocking, since it focuses on precise saber 'fencing'.

Form 3 focuses on pure defense, so it would be totally automated in saber blocking -- like you see in JK and JKII.

Form 4 has alittle of form 2 and 3 mixed in, so it would have limited auto blocking, but also include limited manual blocking for the times when you want to have better blocking ability.

And etc, etc, for the rest of the Forms. Obviously each would have other strengths and weaknesses, but you get my idea :).

In reality though, I think its already a lost cause for me to wish for manual blocking... I think the recent interview has already stated that JA would return with the "same auto blocking" system as in JO -- and I can only hope they're misinformed. This late in the developent leaves little room for and changes to the core systems.

Ahwell, there's always JKIII :).

Matariel
04-07-2003, 03:41 AM
i thought of the idea of manual blocking way back when i bought JK2, when i read the manual. I mistakenly got the impression that you had to block manually by pressing attack and the direction of the attack. I was wrong, but i thought it would be a really really cool idea.
Theres nothing worse that being stuck underneath a Red stance overhead where you cant do squat to avoid it, with "Matariel's Patented Saber Combat System™©" as described in 2 other threads in the forum, but more clearly here: Saber Combat (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1100547#post1100547)

You can successfully block and counter the move! Like in JK2 SP, where the blocks and counters were part of the AI, JA running "Matariel's Patented Saber Combat System™©" will allow for realistic saber fighting techniques. I go for realism to the movies over anything, its more fun, especially in duels, to taunt the enemy and have lots of blocks similar to the duels featured in the movies. The movies dont have ppl hitting each other every two seconds like some saber-nutters ive seen.
Some may say that this is 'boring', especially in DUEL game mode. I think its quite the opposite, it shows real skill to fight in this manner, and i'd bet anything that it would be really entertaining to watch, just like the best part of any Star Wars movie is the saber fight sequences.

Ive said this before, but if the final game doesnt have a manual blocking system, i'll code it myself, you have my personal assurance or that.

(just a note, i havent registered my saber combat system as a trademark, nor have i copyrighted it...so if the Raven guys wanna use it, by all means do it, just gimme a shout via email if you wanna talk about it)

RpTheHotrod
04-07-2003, 04:14 AM
I'd say, depending on your "skill points" in saber defense. it should auto defend a bit, but by FAR not as well as manually blocking.

You should also be able to block a certain angle. IE, if they are vertical slashing at you, you should be able to hold your saber horizontal to block.

In other words, you're in a fight with maxed saber defense. You will auto-block occasionally, but if you actually hit a block key and aim your saber towards theirs (horz vs vert)...your block has a MUCH higher chance of being successful. All in all, you're survival would depend on actual saber skills, not random chances. Auto-Block would be enough to help get a "lucky block"

HertogJan
04-07-2003, 05:28 AM
Exactly, let the amount of force points you put in saber defense decide how effective your automatic block is.

On the highest level, it should block laser bolts etc. automaticly, and stop some of the saber strikes. But you'll havbe to block manually (2nd mouse button) against most saber strikes/swings. I think there's no point in manual blocking against laser bolts, especially in SP. Look at how Obi Wan reflected those lasers from the droids in EPI!!

I think that as an experienced Jedi, with lots of experience points in saber defense, you shouldn't have to worry about lasers being shot at you, you're way past that. You only have to worry about attacks from behind or saber weilding opponents...

Mero Vilul
04-07-2003, 05:45 AM
Manual block of course.

* Press secondary fire and you block. If you run while blocking you will be penalised, let's say it's only 50% chance of blocking while running. When walking it's 100%, if you aren't facing the opponent with your back that is. Everytime something is blocked you need to press and hold the secondary fire again. Secondary fire can only be held for about 3 seconds before you need to repress it.

* I thought about having the idea that blocking will open up the opponents defense for you, but that would be bad for gameplay. You would both be there standing until someone got tired of waiting and therefor tried a blow and the other guy blocked and countered a deadly blow. Attackers should not be penalized that badly so the defender always get the upper hand because countering is to effective. Let's say that it's a 10% chance when you block that your opponent will get a "penalty" and open himself for a easy hit. Don't you think people on servers would be standing there blocking until that situation happened and get a easy hit? Then wait again and again... The one attacking should have the upper hand...

* Holding block button and pressing backwards (when a strike is coming from the rear) means you will block the blow from behind.

* Someone not blocking when the opponent strikes a hit on hes saber will mean the player gets "JK2 stunned", with that I mean the saberclash when both players saber do a recoil animation in JK2 when clashing together. The Attackers saber will continue it's swing though, so he can still score a hit. If you just stand there waiting and not READY for a block you wont be able to withstand the force of something coming right at you, so YOU are penalised.

Edit: Using block would take away a SMALL amount of force, not more than one small dot (if parrying red stance, smaller if blue/yellow), but if you just emptied your force pool from spamming lightning, you wont be prepared or in right condition to block a fully force hitting user coming right at you for the next 1-2 seconds or so. Swinging your saber should take a little force to, these Dark/Light Jedis focuses their force and such to make all these great moves and to be able to foresee and counter the opponent. But as I said, the attack should be rewarded again so if you stand there blocking successfully for half a hour you will have less force than the attacker left. These are only SMALL amounts of force-cost. But it would mean blue spammers would need to rest once in a while and the like.

Oh well, gotta go, just some ideas I had.

Jolts
04-07-2003, 05:57 AM
For blocking blaster fire in automatic system obi wan for xbox got it down pretty well. You block anything in your fov, but to return the shot back at the attacker you had to pull back on the thumb stick which was the block command and then the shot would be returned to the enemy that fired it. It used up mana so after a few shots you had to wait for your manan to recharge.

As for duels, if you sat there a tried to let the blocking system save you the ai, or anthoer player would just kick you, or do a low attack or force powered attack and eventually beat the crap out of you. To stun someone in you had to wait for them to attack, then pull bakc on block that would cause them to recoil then you could move in for an attack.

I think both systems were good, but not the best solution, but still made for better fights than JO. If you knew what you were doing you could drop someone in 30 seconds, if you were new to the system you make a fight last 10 minutes.

nova_wolf
04-07-2003, 05:59 AM
Best thing is to give the option.

If it is dead set one or the other, its only gonna be the 'Patch 1.X' arguement all over again!

Would be nice to try though, although the vets amongst us should be aware that it is already available in JKII if you know the right console command(s).

eastcoast2895
04-07-2003, 09:33 AM
it chill Silent_Thunder, we were having a discussion and trying to argue our sides, no beef.
I imagine auto block would be a complete server option cuz this would make it so players all would have or won't have and make it even and noone can complain about over use. i also think taking away force power for blocking should be a time scale or something so it can't be overused, and if a person does use an entire force mana blocking something should happen cuz blocking that long shouldn't really happen if it takes it away really slowly.

HaruGlory89
04-07-2003, 10:39 AM
Option for both! But I'd prefer automatic. It would be very,very hard to both attack and defend using the SAME button. However, it would be nice for a seperate button for both attack and defence.

Agen
04-07-2003, 01:46 PM
Ahh.. i played jedi power battles alot of times, but it isn't really recognizable down on paper(?) since i thoguht it was kind of frantic and anyway... for everyone who is against, think of the way it works, if thery fire you need to click the block button just in time to save your self which, parrys them or or knocks em back a bit then you attack back - maknig it more movie liek (even though i don't really care about that at all) and much more fun and interacting imo .... It woudi be a great quick click system i think where button mashing cannot win.
That's MHO anyway
Of coruse there would be two seperate buttons, prob prim and sec. isntead of sab throw.... that could jsut go bury itself in the neutral power list.

Deadeye
04-07-2003, 02:14 PM
I read some of the posts but I did not have the patience to read them all up to this point. I had an idea mainly for single player, about the sabers. If anybody played with that mod that had the two meters on each side of the screen. Each one was constanly fluctuating as your reticle aim improved or degraded. It basically told you what your odds of connecting with your saber offensively or defensively. I thought that was an interesting idea, but a bit cumbersome in practice. I thought it might be cool if you had one meter that only told you about your defensive capabilites. I also suggest that there be a block button. This would be cool b/c you could ignite the saber, and be in idle state, then hold down or hit the button to take a ready posistion. -This would allow for some cool idle, ignition, poses. Anyway, here how it goes. You walk up to an enemy saber weilder. Stop and whip out your hilt. In a cool stlyized way, you hit the ignite button. You stand there idle in a rather badass-looking stance,which will look more badass as you become a better jedi. At the beginning of the game you guy might look a tad bit timid when faced with another jedi. Later on he gets more confident looking. If you walk up to the other jedi and he's rather aggresive, you can hold down the block button and you will have this really sweet, fast-paced, clash, clash, clash. With each block the defence meter goes down. Each stance dishes out more "damage" to that meter. When this meter is depleted (I figure 4-6 hits with blue stance to kill it), you have to parry, or back flip or, actually take an offensive swing, b/c the next swing is going to connect with your player. If you do decide to take an offensive swing and your meter is gone, you might still contact his saber for a block, but you will be more likely to be knocked away. I also suggest that this meter recharges very quickly. Sorta like a jetback meter does. Unlike that mod, you can easily keep tabs on your defensive capabilites, and it can allow for a a bit of strategy in saber combat. -not too much mind you. What it also allows for is a nice bit of wickedly fast saber combat with clashing sabers, but it limits the newbie button mashing method of getting that. If you do just stand there with the block button held down it would go like this. Block! Block! Block! Block! Block! Saber-knocked away, and bam! you're dead! (or really damaged) Also the AI should have their own meters (not visible to the player) That way you might come on aggresively and they have to block it all and then they might spin away like Obi-Wan did in E1 against Darth Maul. The only thing that the block button/meter does is let you quickly and easily plan you moves. You might hit him with a red stance hit and it will completely drain the meter, then switch to blue stance, and take him out while his saber is knocked away. In multi-player you have to watch out not to try to block some of those red stance swings. After the long slow swing, you might be able to hit him blue. I could go on and on trying to exemplify everything, but I have thought about most of the complaints about the combat, what with the patched and all. I really think that at the very least this will give single player jedi-jedi combat a real sence of urgency, and intensity. By not knowing your enemy's defense meter, you have to only keep track of yours and just look for that opening. Think of it this way. You hit the guy many many times, and you think that any second now he'll be "tired" and his blocking might falter (meter is empty) It causes you to look for or anticipate an opening, just like in real sword combat. When your enemy's meter is out he might roll to the side, spin away, of back flip outta there, and you would be like, "damn! he parried" So you have to get back in there. This time, he's coming on strong so you have to do some blocking. But you deiced to roll to the side after your meter is halfway down, and you strike him down from the side. With the additions of some simple combos to the game you could plan and anticipate your openings and counter with a sweet combo. Adding a quick forward jab (like saber battleX) would be cool for those openings. regarding combos I was thinking about how fighting against stormies, or other gun toting enemies would be. If you are in the middle of several guys it might be cool to have a simple combo like A, D, Swing, which would do a swing to the left and then to the right, you could have some cool senarios where you killed two guys on either side of you. Star Wars is all about those sweet moments that we remember. If you are able to get creative with your attacks, defense, combos, etc. You can really create those memorable moments. That's why Deus Ex is so great. You could really get creative with how you dispatch your enemies. I have other ideas about some of the force powers, and the overall feel of the game, but I'll save that for another post. I really have given a lot of thought to this saber mechanic, and I know that I probably did not describe it well enough, but if anyone wants to question something about it, I will probably be able to explain around it.

Agen
04-07-2003, 03:39 PM
I thoguht promod (the 2 meters) was pretty weak, to get it up to full pwoer you had to run straight with heavy stance, you ended up getting the gmae like this but it's not a bad system there.

Still best to give the option.

Prime
04-07-2003, 04:02 PM
Personally, I think it should stay automatic. Despite all the complaints people had, I thought it worked pretty well in MP and SP. It could use a few tweeks, like not blocking attacks from behind, and so on, but I think auto-blocking was a good decision in JO.

I have a few reasons for feeling this way:

1. Depending on how it is implemented, will people really be fast enough to hit the block button quick enough to defend against an attack? Especially with lag, I have visions about everyone bitching that even though they are hitting the block button, an opponant's swing will still get through.

2. I've seen some mention of a system of holding down a "block" button and not being able to attack. I don't really see the point of this. Currently, when you stand there, you are essentially defending. When you attack you are now leaving yourself open to a counterattack, because you are no longer defending. How does having a block button make this different? Holding down the button means you can't attack, and swinging means you can't defend. What's different from now, besides the pain of having another button to press?

3. Judging from the responses, no one can decide what "manual blocking" is and how it should be implemented. The poll is a bit misleading, because even though the numbers for manual blocking are large, they contain many different opinions on what manual blocking should be like. I fear that if there is manual blocking, there will be lots of whining about how blocking isn't done right, and then all sorts of mods implementing different systems will pop up, fragmenting the comminuty.

4. Having the option might be okay, but it is just another option that will divide up the community and servers.

Just some thoughts :)

Deadeye
04-07-2003, 09:37 PM
Now that I read your reasons I see that a block button might be slightly cumbersome in multiplayer. I was more thinking along the lines of single player when I thought of it.

It's not going to be a matter of hitting a block button at the right time, it's going to be a matter of holding it down, or perhaps hitting the button once to turn the "mode" on. -I'm not sure which one would be more effective. You don't want to bog down your fingers when you're trying to block then force push, etc at the same time. As long as block mode is on, you will block every saber strike. When the meter is depleated, you are left open. The point of this system is to force you to act, thereby avoiding altogether that complaint about newbies just button mashing. It makes everyone use a bit of strategy. I tried to think of the simplest, most intuitive method of forcing a fighting game strategy without losing the free form action of an FPS. Oni sorta accomlished this. But fist, and feet are a bit simpler than a potentially one-shot kill weapon. I wish that I could come up with some sort of demo, obviously this is impossible, but I can see it all in my heed I swear! :oP

Think of it this way. An enemy AI appears. Just like in JO you run up and start whacking. The enemy blocks and then suddenly he's open. (his definse meter has been drained) Now you swing for the kill, yes, kill. But he rolled out of the way. At the end of that roll he's up and taking a swing at you. Presumably there should be moves where you dodge and then strike in one motion. That way in a situation such as this, the player is forced to consider turing block on when his oppenent dodges. Likewise with the AI. Now you've blocked the parry-strike, and he's still hitting, but before you meter is drained you decide that you might try a quick offensive swing. now the AI enemy is blocking or maybe you got thru since he was on the offensive and not blocking. Or your sabers hit each other resulting in a stance vs stance calculation to determine which person is left open. I guess the idea is that it will be a constant, quick back and forth struggle, like in real sword fighting. Like in sword fighting most of the fight is the clashing of swords to block each other. It's that one moment that the player or AI is left open that you/AI must seize and act upon. I

It seems to me that most people are more concerned with damage balancing, and spamming, and other mulitplayer problems. Which is good, since JO has plenty. But I think the system should be re-worked. Afterall this is not supposed to be Q3 with sabers, it's supposed to be Starwars sword fighting. The same rules dont' apply in MP anymore. At least I don't think they do. Maybe that was Raven's problem. I think that combat should be very quick, and not random. The player should be able to get really creative especially when fighting in conjunction with force powers.

anyway that's MHO

Prime
04-07-2003, 10:10 PM
Originally posted by Deadeye
Now that I read your reasons I see that a block button might be slightly cumbersome in multiplayer. I was more thinking along the lines of single player when I thought of it. Personnally, I think it would probably be best to try and keep SP and MP saber combat as similar as possible. Having to learn two different styles might be a pain.

Originally posted by Deadeye
It seems to me that most people are more concerned with damage balancing, and spamming, and other mulitplayer problems. There are legitimate problems with MP, but I don't think that manual saber blocking is going to solve them. I think people's biggest problem with blocking is that they feel they aren't rewarded when they attack an opening. Others are just bitching because they got owned :)

Originally posted by Deadeye
anyway that's MHO Always good to hear people's different views on the subject :)

Matariel
04-08-2003, 01:15 AM
I just want JK saber duels to be as exciting as the ones in the movies, cos thats what this is all about

When swordfighting in any style, there are specific offensive and defensive moves. But in jk2 right now, its just all offensive, (except in SP but thats automatic) it just looks silly to watch.
If there were a hold button for 'defensive' mode, it would allow for better blocking and countering and make a much more exciting game. I hate quick deaths in saber fights, since when have you known a jedi duel to last less that 10 seconds? Every duel in the movies lasts at least more than 5 minutes, and the hits are few and far between.
This said, shields should be out now, with sabres doing a lot more damage. Meaning realistic damage (like when u set that cvar in jk2 that chops off legs/arms etc etc), so you must learn to block and counter the moves your opponent makes.
Doesnt Yoda say something along the lines of "A jedi must use the force for defence, never for attack"

Khier
04-08-2003, 02:18 AM
Well I'm used to automatic blocking, but if Raven decides to change it to manual, I can always adapt, it may take a little while to get used to after playing JO for some time, but like Silent_Thunder said it'll be like a second nature.

BrodieCadden
04-08-2003, 02:39 AM
I would definately say manual.

One of the things that irked me about JO was the fact that the saber fighting in SP (I never liked MP, hrmm) felt a bit detached. Sure I could use my force powers and swing pretty accurately, but I couldn't control half of the fight: that is reactional blocking, not automatic blocking.

It may slow saber fights down a bit, but they would be much more intense as one must trust ones own skill to win, and not a computers number crunching. I think it would make the game a tighter package, more well rounded and just more fun/enjoyable.

I won't be singin' the blues if automatic is left out: I see it as more of a stepping stone to better things, more precisely reactional blocking.

toms
04-08-2003, 03:13 PM
the problem (from my very limited experience of JK2) was that the blocking animation was so short.... meaning you could block anything that flew at you.

in JK (which wasn't perfect either) at least the blocking animation took a few frames, so if you blocked a shot it took half a second before you could block another one. (making repeaters or multiple enemies more deadly).

I think the time taken to block should depend on the angle the shooter is away from straight ahead... so you could block almost anything from directly infronto of you, 20 degrees to the side and it takes a second or so, 90 degrees to the side and it takes 3 seconds or so.
Also each successive block should increase the time it takes to block... so if you keep blocking then it will eventually let people get through your attack... not blocking would allow the block speed to go back up... attacking would instantly reset the block speed (making block, attack, block a good way to go).

This would also increase the usefullness of the quicker saber styles as you could get through defences easier.

Another option would be to have a very narrow autoblock cone (45 degrees) and have a block button to increase this to about 270 degrees.

Sending shots back at enemies should definately reduce your force meter.

boinga1
04-08-2003, 04:16 PM
auto- why? because it's easier for me, a not-very coordinated guy, and i'm almost out of keys to use on my keyboard :)

Prime
04-08-2003, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by Matariel
If there were a hold button for 'defensive' mode, it would allow for better blocking and countering and make a much more exciting game.

I hate quick deaths in saber fights, since when have you known a jedi duel to last less that 10 seconds? Every duel in the movies lasts at least more than 5 minutes, and the hits are few and far between. Why would this make for better blocking and countering? Having a block button would make for even quicker fights than we have now, because they would rely on people's slower reflexes to block. The auto-blocking is what makes JO saber fights take longer, not shorter.

Originally posted by toms
I think the time taken to block should depend on the angle the shooter is away from straight ahead... so you could block almost anything from directly in front of you, 20 degrees to the side and it takes a second or so, 90 degrees to the side and it takes 3 seconds or so.I don't really agree with the increased time with blocking something from the side. But I do agree with having the angle help determine the blocking success. Attacks from the side should be a little harder to defend against than attacks from directly in front.

t3rr0r
04-08-2003, 05:52 PM
Originally posted by Prime
Why would this make for better blocking and countering? Having a block button would make for even quicker fights than we have now, because they would rely on people's slower reflexes to block. The auto-blocking is what makes JO saber fights take longer, not shorter.
word... right now, all you have to do is not attack, if you want to block a great deal of the hits...

Solo4114
04-08-2003, 09:14 PM
I voted for "new system" and have tried to work out a system that, I think, would both reward skill and allow new players the ability to learn to play effectively. Hopefully there would be a learning curve, without there being a real barrier to becoming reasonably proficient. Essentially, the system I propose is a hybrid of autoblocking and manual blocking, though it rewards the manual blocker more (as pointed out, the force controls your actions, but also obeys your commands -- having more "command" over the force, therefore, is rewarded) So, here goes.

(get comfy -- this could take a bit to explain) I've revised this from a post in a different thread, so bear with me.

Ok for starters, toss out your traditional notions of JO sabre combat, including how you gain access to sabre moves.

For this system, everyone starts with access to all of the basic three single-sabre stances, and can perform all moves. Essentially, if you pick level 1 of sabre offense, you immediately gain the ability to use blue, yellow, and red stances, including all the various special moves (DFA, lunge, etc.). Furthermore, sabres are now truly lethal: 1 to 3 hits (maybe 1 to 2) and the enemy is toast. This alone allows for gametypes like CTF and FFA to be MUCH faster, since it requires significantly fewer hits to actually kill the player. Essentially, every swing operates at the lethality of red stance from JO. Sabres are also unaffected by shields -- they cut right through and affect health. (Sure, Maul's sabre was stopped by shields, but those are massive industrial strength shields, not the weaker personal shield belts we see in the DF series.) Blue stance will also no longer be able to infinitely chain moves -- it now has an upper cap of 8 chainable attacks. Red and yellow remain the same (3 chainable attacks for red, five for yellow). Each stance still has differences still, but the key differences are how each of the stances interact with each other. Here's where things get tricky.

Similar to what was intended by JO, each stance can trump another stance for purposes of offense or defense. Each stance is assigned an offensive value and a defensive value. When attacking, you look to the attack value of the attacker's stance as compared to the defense value of the defender's stance. The basic three stances break down in the following manner:

Red = 3 on O, 1 on D.
Yellow = 2 on O, 2 on D.
Blue = 1 on O, 3 on D.

Thus,

Red O > Red D and Yellow D; Red O = Blue D.
Yellow O > Red D; Yellow O = Yellow D; Yellow O < Blue D.
Blue O = Red D; Blue O <Yellow D and Blue D.

When your O rating is higher than the defender's D rating, you will batter their defenses aside only if you have a 2 point advantage over them. When your D rating is higher than the attacker's O rating, you will perform an automatic parryif you have a 2 point margin. Thus, a single red attack will batter aside red D in one blow, whereas a blue defender will automatically parry against a blue attacker using basic attacks. When either a parry is performed or you batter through defenses, the visual result is essentially that animation where you're sabre has been knocked aside and you'er standing with your arms spread, open to attack or counter-attack -- it wouldn't necessarily have to be this animation, but something along those lines. When there is no 2 point margin, you will simply perform automatic blocks -- manual blocks will have no effect (EXCEPT when you break even).

When you break even (Blue O v. Red D; Yellow O v. Yellow D; Red O v. Blue D), the following system kicks in. In these situations, the defender is given the option of the following: they can choose to "let the force take over" and perform a series of automatic blocks, OR they can use the force to a limited degree and then begin "controlling the force" by executing manual blocks. If you choose to sit back and let the computer block for you, you will block fewer attacks, whereas if you use the manual block, you can block more moves.

So, the following system would be set up:

- Blue O v. Red D - Red D is given 4 automatic blocks. Red D may then manually block 4 further moves.
- Yellow O v. Yellow D - Yellow D is given 3 automatic blocks, and may then perform 2 manual blocks.
- Red O v. Blue D - Blue D is given 2 automatic blocks and one manual block.

Thus, if you can effectively block in time, you will be able to hold your attacker at bay through a chain of attacks, ASSUMING all things are equal.

However, in this system, all things need not be equal.

Combos will have the additional advantage of being able to break through all but the strongest defenses (IE: you can't combo your way through a blue on blue confrontation or a red on red confrontation). When you attack with a one point advantage (IE: Yellow O v. Red D), you will perform the abovementioned number of automatic blocks ONLY. After that, it is your job to get the hell out of the way or get hit (and possibly die -- remember, every hit will do AT A MINIMUM 1/3 of your health bar's damage), since you will not manually block these moves any differently from automatically blocking them. (You could still activate the manual blocking, but it'll just have the same effect as the auto block against that particular stance, so there's really no point.)

When in a break-even situation, you CAN still break through the defenses, even after you've performed your maximum number of chainable attacks. Each successful combo will be given an attack bonus. Combos, moreover, are NOT necessarily chained identical moves. Hitting attack+back+right 8 times in a row in blue stance is not an 8 move combo. A combo would have at least one different move interspersed between identical moves. So, you'd have to do alternating attack+back+right, followed by attack+back+left to get a two move combo.

Combos for each stance would be given the following sliding-scale value. Each time you successfully perform a combo, the bonus number applies to a calculation of the NUMBER of the attacks, not the VALUE of the attacks.

Legend: # of moves in combo/+ # of attacks added as bonus

Blue stance: 2/+.25, 3/+.375, 4/+.5, 5/+.625, 6/+.75, 7/+.875, 8/+1.
Yellow stance: 2/+.4, 3/+.6, 4/+.8, 5/+1.
Red stance: 2/+.67, 3/+1

To batter through defenses using combos in a break-even situation, you would have to have a clear 1 attack advantage. To make the above moves worthwhile (why have the scaled bonus, if you can only break through D with that last move), the defender's blocking status will reset within a specified number of seconds, depending on the particular stance being used against them. This, however, would be dependent upon what Raven would consider a combo for purposes of the game. Personally, I'd make each stance different in terms of the number of different consecutive moves you'd have to execute before you could start throwing in moves you'd already done -- IE: Blue stance would require four different moves in a row before you could recycle moves (and even then, they'd have to come in a different sequence), whereas yellow would require only 2 moves. Because red only can chain 3 moves at a time, you could have identical 2-move combos and not screw up the balance (though the third move would have to be different to provide the defense-breaking combo). You'd still let the player chain the full number of moves (combo or otherwise) before they'd be stopped and have to start attacking again, and if the player switched stances, the defender's auto/manual block would reset (so you couldn't perform a 2 move red combo, then switch to

To prevent against the repeated spamming of a particular move, each stance would also have a sliding scale to represent a decline in the total NUMBER of attacks (again, not the VALUE) if you repeat the same move over and over. Each time you repeated a single move, you'd subtract the penalty from the number of attacks. This, however, would only kick in at the point where the autoblocking stops working. This would break down in the following manner:

Legend: # of repeated identical moves/ - # of attacks for purposes of blocking calculation.

Blue: 5/-1.125, 6/-1.25, 7/-1.375, 8/-1.5.
Yellow: 3/-1.2, 4/-1.4, 5/-1.6.
Red: 3/-1.

The net effect of this would be that if, for example, you attack with red against a blue defender, and you performed three identical strikes in a row, all three would be autoblocked. You wouldn't be parried, but none of your attacks would break through the defenses. With yellow on yellow, if you performed three identical moves in a row, for blocking purposes, you'd only be credited with 1.8 attacks. So, for purposes of autoblocking, you'd still have 2.2 attacks left that would be autoblocked.

The actual mechanism of manual blocking would have to occur with split-second timing, too. It would be an actual button that would be pressed and held, but you'd have to press it at just the right moment in BETWEEN attacks during a combo. So, in the midst of an 8 move blue combo, you'd have to hit red's manual block button at the perfect moment (whenever Raven determined that to be) between swings 4 and 5. Otherwise, you'd have to evade, rather than autoblock.

You could make things more complex by factoring in respective levels of sabre offense vs. sabre defense. Each time you picked a higher level, you'd essentially shift the VALUE of your stances up by one point for purposes of attack or defense, respectively. So, a person with level 3 attack would use blue's attack at a value of 4, whereas a person with level 3 defense would use blue's defense at a value of 6 (see? still maintains the 2 point margin, all things being equal). The number of attacks would still be the same, but for purposes of trumping or breaking through defenses automatically, the value that you'd check would be one higher per level of offense or defense you took.

Where things would get REALLY interesting is when you factor in the "specialty" stances. Once you'd picked level 3 saber offense or sabre defense, you'd be given the ability to assign further points to a new stance, either the double-bladed sabre (for offense) or dual sabres (for defense). These stances would operate in the following way (for purposes of both stances, assume that the calculations are applied to level 1 opposition);

Double-Bladed sabre:

- Attacks at a base of 7, defends at 2-3, depending on the stance attacking it.
- Chains up to 5 attacks.
- Combo bonuses: 2/+.4, 3/+.6, 4/+.8, 5/+1
- Against Yellow O, defends as if Yellow D (for block calculations). Against Red O, defends as if blue D. Thus, it can break even with both yellow attacks and red attacks, but is truly dominant on the attack (if you go up against a lvl 1 defender with this, you have an attack value of 7 -- no way they can block you).
- Decline rate for identical chained attacks: 3/-1.2, 4/-1.4, 5/-1.6.
- Can switch to single-bladed mode and operate as a normal single-bladed sabre at any time.

Dual Sabres:

- Attack at a base of 2-3, depending on the stance it is attacking, defends at a base of 7.
- Chains up to 12 attacks.
- Combo bonuses: 2/+.16, 3/+.25, 4/+.33, 5/+.42, 6/+.5, 7/+.58, 8/+.67, 9/+.75, 10/+.83, 11/+.92, 12/+1
- Against both yellow and blue D, the stance breaks even, BUT the defender is given 6 autoblocks and 5 manual blocks.
- Decline rate for identical chained attacks: 6/-1.08, 7/-1.16, 8/-1.25, 9/-1.33, 10/-1.42, 11/-1.5, 12/-1.58.
- At any time, can turn off the second sabre and holster it, to function as single bladed sabre.

Ok, so, great. I've now come up with a rather complex system with a crapload of numbers that make my eyes hurt to look at. What's the end result?

Well, the system I'm proposing would actually reward skill. You'd really have to become facile with the various stances to learn the combinations in order to effectively break defenses. On D, you'd really have to learn when to properly time your manual block -- it wouldn't just be up to the computer. Moreover, you wouldn't just be able to sit back with blue defense, walk away from the computer, and let it infinitely autoblock for you -- there'd actually be an upper limit to the number of attacks you could block. Ultimately, the skilled players would be rewarded, but at the same time, a newbie (not a n00b) who knows when discretion is the better part of valor would still be able to let the computer handle SOME of the blocking, but not ALL of the blocking. And finally, you wouldn't be able to just spam a single move over and over in a chain and call it a "combo." You'd actually have to do more than just button mashing or the old "headless chicken" dance in blue stance in order to win. Thus, there'd be a learning curve, but not an insurmountable one, and at the same time, the skilled would be rewarded for playing smart and knowing the subtleties of the game.

Now, I know Raven isn't going to adopt this system, not at the start at least. But it is a system that, while complicated, could work well in practice. All those numbers would be handled by the engine itself. All the player would have to know how to do is perform the combos, and what stance is better against another on O or D (and when to block or when to cut and run).

Another system could be the blocking "bar" suggested above, where you can block for X amount of time or against Y number of attacks.

Finally, a third option for auto vs. manual blocking would be that you leave autoblocking the way it is in JO (albeit making it less random), but have a PARRY button instead of a block button. Thus, you could sit on your duff and do nothing, and let the autoblocking protect you, but you'd never get in an attack. The real skill would come in when you press the parry button, which would allow you to move from the defensive to the offensive without breaking stride or running away. It would also leave the enemy open to counter attack. The parry button would also be used to direct blaster fire or other similar projectiles back at enemy gunners (so you couldn't sit there and let them kill themselves -- you'd actually have to take an active role in that). You could also still implement the trump system I described above (IE: which stance has a higher "value" over other stances), even if the stances themselves don't operate the way I described 'em (IE: the caps on chains, combo bonuses, spam decline, etc.). The stuff I suggested might make a nice addition to a mod (IE: promod or something like it), rather than the full game.

Assuming they leave out much of the stuff I suggested, I'd say that a parry button (rather than a block button -- let the blocking be automatic) would be the perfect blend of the two worlds.

Anyway, sorry for that Russian novel of a post there. I had a complicated system in mind and wanted to get it written down somewhere before I forgot. Plus, I'm curious as to what people who actually want to bother to read the whole damn thing think about it. :)

Rad Blackrose
04-08-2003, 11:37 PM
Solo, you make Dostoevsky look like an average person. =p

Nice post.

When swordfighting in any style, there are specific offensive and defensive moves. But in jk2 right now, its just all offensive, (except in SP but thats automatic) it just looks silly to watch.
If there were a hold button for 'defensive' mode, it would allow for better blocking and countering and make a much more exciting game. I hate quick deaths in saber fights, since when have you known a jedi duel to last less that 10 seconds? Every duel in the movies lasts at least more than 5 minutes, and the hits are few and far between.


The one thing I have yet to see people attempt to rectify here is the bandwidth/latency that is incorporated into both offense and defense. Everything may look good on paper here, but that is assuming it is a constant 0 ping interface.

We have to be realistic. Not everyone is going to have an uber connection.

That's why I am for autoblocking.

Hekx
04-08-2003, 11:49 PM
Originally posted by eastcoast2895
i'm just saying alt fire may not work cuz it probably be binded to saber throw Saber Throw shall begone! I hope. ;)

Solo4114
04-09-2003, 01:11 AM
Originally posted by Rad Blackrose
Solo, you make Dostoevsky look like an average person. =p

Nice post.

Yeah, I suppose reading it could be considered crime and punishment. :D Thanks, though.

I just wanted to explain what was a fairly complex idea for me to come up with. I didn't want there to be details left out.

The more I look at it, though, and compare it to what Raven's said will happen with the dual sabres and double-bladed sabres, the less likely I think it is that the style I proposed will be used.

I still think it'd make a good mod, but Raven sure won't be the ones making it.

So, I guess as far as the auto vs. manual blocking goes, I'm going to reiterate that I support autoblocking, but manual parrying using a separate "parry" button (not simply attacking when the enemy attacks). Whatever system is incorporated should be balanced such that no one stance is able to trump all others in all aspects (IE: red is awesome for O, but crap for D, blue is the opposite, and yellow is a mix. Dual blades give you awesome D and somewhere between blue and yellow on O. Double-bladed sabres give you awesome O and somewhere between red and yellow on D). While the double-blade and dual sabres should be powerful (especially if you have to spend beaucoup points to get 'em, and I bet we'll have to do just that), they should not be all-powerful in any sense.

For example, dual sabres may be fast, but they are weaker in terms of breaking through defenses (since you're only attacking with one hand, as opposed to two). Double-bladed sabres provide fantastic range, but are cumbersome and unwieldy, and require wide swings to use. Thus, they leave you open to being parried more easily. Something like that.

I think my trump system would work well there, and that's something that Raven could still use, especially with regards to the offense/defense points that you assign and how they relate to all the other stances.

t3rr0r
04-09-2003, 09:09 AM
Originally posted by Rad Blackrose
The one thing I have yet to see people attempt to rectify here is the bandwidth/latency that is incorporated into both offense and defense. Everything may look good on paper here, but that is assuming it is a constant 0 ping interface.
the latency would be exactly the same with defence as it is with offense... it really wouldn't be that huge of a problem.

Echuu Shen-Jon
04-09-2003, 10:46 AM
I don't really know about the sabre blocking, but I think, that the laser blocking should be more realistic. Because, sometimes, in JO Kyle is justto the left, an holding his saber d he's blocking a shot over his head at the same time! If there's going to be manual sabere blocking, I think, that you could go into something like "the-force-is-now-controling-your-blocking", or a better force-speed!

Prime
04-09-2003, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by t3rr0r
the latency would be exactly the same with defence as it is with offense... it really wouldn't be that huge of a problem. I think the problem arises because of the combination of the two. Currently, there is only the latency of the attack swings. Since the defence is always "on" there is not latency for the game to know that you are defending. However, if you add a block button, the game no longer knows automatically that you are defending when your not attacking. There would be the added latency for you defense command. So the latency would potentially be attack + defend.

t3rr0r
04-09-2003, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by Prime
So the latency would potentially be attack + defend.
no, it wouldn't add onto the latency... the code would just have one additional latency dependant action. hell, the guns are more dependant on latency than the saber is.

toms
04-09-2003, 02:28 PM
saber throw on the second mouse button did get a bit OTT didnt it? :D

making the second button a counterattack/reversal button would be better than making a manual block. HOlding it would just attempt to block... but pressing it at the right time would perform knock the attacking saber away and counterattack... a devastating move, but risky as you would have to remain open.

Prime
04-09-2003, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by t3rr0r
no, it wouldn't add onto the latency... the code would just have one additional latency dependant action. hell, the guns are more dependant on latency than the saber is. That's true. My thinking was a bit screwy I guess :)

I agree that guns are much more affected by latency, but I am only considering duels here. But do not agree that the overall latency of the game will be increased by adding a blocking button? I guess I don't see what the blocking button really gives you that makes it worth adding more latency.

Spider AL
04-09-2003, 03:18 PM
Manual blocking would be better. It should consist of a button that activates the normal blocking code, that currently automatically comes into effect in JO when one is not attacking.

Therefore, it wouldn't add any lag at all, as the transition from blocking to attacking goes on throughout a duel anyway. It would merely put it under the control of the player.

Solo4114
04-09-2003, 04:03 PM
See, I think the existing blocking code needs some tweaking, though it may be the hit detection, and not the blocking itself.

Al, assuming that we implemented a system where blocking was left the same, but activated by a button, how would you handle the apparent ability to block ad infinitum using particular stances? Would you change this or leave it the same and trust to people's reflexes to be the ultimate determination of when a hit is scored? I'll admit, your system would be a relatively simple thing to fix (or so it seems -- again, no knowledge of how to code here). But wouldn't you also have the problem of people just running around holding block all the time? That would end up being not all that much different from the current system.

I think you'd need to have some sort of decline in blocking ability, the longer you try to block for. Otherwise, people will just basically spam blocking.

On a different note, one alternative for autoblocking would be to have the success percentage depend on the angle of attack. The closer to straight on the attack comes from, the more likely you are to block it. Your defense arc could be tied directly to the level of sabre defense you pick -- lvl 1 has a 90 degree arc from the player's center, lvl 2 has a 135 degree arc, and lvl 3 has a 180 degree arc. But, even within those arcs, you'd still have a decline in blocking success, the farther away you are from center. The one problem I foresee with this system is that it would reduce sabre fights to people constantly using side attacks,which would get old after a while.

t3rr0r
04-09-2003, 07:05 PM
Originally posted by Solo4114
But wouldn't you also have the problem of people just running around holding block all the time? That would end up being not all that much different from the current system.

I think you'd need to have some sort of decline in blocking ability, the longer you try to block for. Otherwise, people will just basically spam blocking.
they could make it that you could block 75% (these are just numbers i'm putting out there) holding defence while standing still, 50% while walking, and 25% while running... imo, something along the lines of that could work...

Solo4114
04-09-2003, 07:56 PM
Do you mean that you'd have, for example, a 75% chance of blocking, or that when being attacked by yellow stance, you'd block the first 4 and the 5th would get through?

t3rr0r
04-09-2003, 08:05 PM
Originally posted by Solo4114
Do you mean that you'd have, for example, a 75% chance of blocking
yes, there'd be a 25% chance that you'd be hit, which only increases with movement.

Prime
04-09-2003, 09:11 PM
Originally posted by Spider AL
Therefore, it wouldn't add any lag at all, as the transition from blocking to attacking goes on throughout a duel anyway. It would merely put it under the control of the player. But wouldn't there be lag when the player hits the block button? Maybe I can explain what I'm thinking.

When a player hits the attack button, there is lag from when this happens to when the swing starts. We have that now, so no problem. When the swing completes, now the player wants to defend. Currently, the game knows that if the player isn't attacking, they are defending. There is no lag here because the game automatically defends.

Now for manual blocking. When the player's attack swing finishes, he wants to defend so he hits the block button. Isn't there lag from the time the button is pressed to when the game turns on blocking mode?

Just trying to clear tis up for myself :)

Originally posted by t3rr0r
they could make it that you could block 75% (these are just numbers i'm putting out there) holding defence while standing still, 50% while walking, and 25% while running... imo, something along the lines of that could work...Would this mean that players would become very reluctant to move around, because they would be automatically opening themselves up? Don't we want to keep the game active and free-flowing? I don't think you really want to penalize movement too much.

Not to bring the movies into it, but aren't the lightsaber fights we know have quick moves with lots of flips, rolls, and so on?

t3rr0r
04-09-2003, 09:22 PM
Originally posted by Prime
Would this mean that players would become very reluctant to move around, because they would be automatically opening themselves up? Don't we want to keep the game active and free-flowing? I don't think you really want to penalize movement too much.
well, i was just giving some numbers for examples... they could be as different as 10% (chance not blocking), 20%, and 30%...

Sivy
04-09-2003, 09:24 PM
Originally posted by Silent_Thunder
Thanks, but it's actually pretty much the way that old PS1 game... Jedi Power Battles (note; I'm not advocating buying it) did it. So the accuracy thing isn't really my idea :).

i like jedi power battles and i agree that a similar style would be good for JA.
but i think that blocking laser blasts should be automatic. whereas in a duel you have to manually block sabers.
when you watch saber duels in the films, one will be on the defensive while the other offensive and then vice versa. that would be alot better than just hacking away at each other.

Orangina_Rouge
04-09-2003, 10:39 PM
Personnally i want Promod Saber blocking : It s not manual nor it s random ...... it s totally dependent on your aiming skill wich is what a FPS is and should be about.

Matariel
04-10-2003, 12:00 AM
i want it to be manual, and depend on where you aim. you must block each saber attack with a directional press of your block or 'defence' key, similar to the way you attack. A correct block means 100% damage blocked, if you're too slow or go the wrong side, theres a percentage damage depending on the situation, only if you dont block at all you get 100% damage

MuRaSaMuNe
04-10-2003, 12:50 AM
Implementing a counter to a button instead of a block would make it worth-wile for saber fights.

ArtifeX
04-10-2003, 11:16 AM
I think something everyone's overlooking with the whole manual blocking issue is internet lag. With most of the systems described here, you've not only got to see your opponent swinging, but you have to know precisely which attack he's doing, judge the distance between you and him, and then hit the so-called "block" button at the right time. With a ping of 100ms (pretty common) and a standard human reflex reaction time of 100ms, then that attack is going to be 200ms along its path long before you even begin to process what to do about it.

Prime
04-10-2003, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by ArtifeX
I think something everyone's overlooking with the whole manual blocking issue is internet lag. With most of the systems described here, you've not only got to see your opponent swinging, but you have to know precisely which attack he's doing, judge the distance between you and him, and then hit the so-called "block" button at the right time. With a ping of 100ms (pretty common) and a standard human reflex reaction time of 100ms, then that attack is going to be 200ms along its path long before you even begin to process what to do about it. A very good point.

Originally posted by t3rr0r
well, i was just giving some numbers for examples... they could be as different as 10% (chance not blocking), 20%, and 30%...It would certainly need some good play testing to find out what good numbers might look like...

Solo4114
04-10-2003, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by Prime
It would certainly need some good play testing to find out what good numbers might look like...

All the more reason why Raven/Lucasarts should release a multiplayer demo BEFORE the game hits the stores. And one of the main reasons why I'll be waiting for both SP and MP demos prior to buying the game. I want to make DAMN sure that Raven gets it right on both accounts before I plunk down my cash this time. And review magazines/websites will likely just hype the game. "It's got incredible new graphics!" "You can fight a Rancor! Cool!" "You can use two sabres or a dual-bladed sabre! Cool!" "You can combine force powers! Neato!" "Any Star Wars fan who plays this game for only 10 hours over a 5 day period will love this game for all time! I SWEAR!!" :)

JaledDur
04-10-2003, 03:21 PM
Originally posted by ArtifeX
I think something everyone's overlooking with the whole manual blocking issue is internet lag. With most of the systems described here, you've not only got to see your opponent swinging, but you have to know precisely which attack he's doing, judge the distance between you and him, and then hit the so-called "block" button at the right time. With a ping of 100ms (pretty common) and a standard human reflex reaction time of 100ms, then that attack is going to be 200ms along its path long before you even begin to process what to do about it.

And also once you press your block button, the server has to register that you did so, which will introduce even more lag. For those of you concerned with manual blocking for the sake of introducing a new factor to the game, or for better showing skill in game, I suggest you try ProMod... which it appears many of you either haven't tried or don't like. If the latter, I don't know why -- it adds some nice complexity to the game in a way that is simple to understand and seamlessly integrated into the game.

Prime
04-10-2003, 10:57 PM
Apart from lag, I really don't see how having a block button is really going to change things. Whenever someone isn't attacking, they are going to be holding down the block button. Isn't that exactly the same as auto-blocking is now? The only thing different is that you are holding down a button the whole time.

What do people expect will be different by adding a block button?

Solo4114
04-11-2003, 12:21 AM
See, that's why I think a block button itself wouldn't do it. It'd be better to leave autoblocking (although modify it so you can't do it forever and against every stance), and have a button that you can hit to PARRY. This would require you to appropriately time the parry, then follow up with a counter-attack.

toms
04-11-2003, 01:28 PM
what you need to do is make repeated blocking more difficult. Have either a minimum time between blocks that goes up with repeated blocks, or a percentage chance of blocking that goes down with repeated blocks.

This would reset slowly over time when not blocking.

Then have an attacking move reset this blocking time/chance.

That way people have to block then attack, then block strategically.

A possible enhancement would be for the scale of the effect on the blocking delay/chance to be related to the strength of the blow... so a powerful blow that was blocked would reduce their chances of blocking the next blow... meaning a quick attack might get through.

-----

Personally i think the second button should be used for either:

-kicks, (in all directions)
-directional blows (in all directions, while the first button does frontal attacks)
-alternate speed attacks... so in the red stance it would do a quick, light attack, but in the blue stance it would do a strong, slow attack. (it would be nice to be able to vary strengths and speeds on the fly, rather than changing stances)

Wavey Davey
04-12-2003, 12:14 PM
Saber throw is actually used twice in the movies.

Vader, as everyone knows about and might i add that that was not ineffective because he wasn't trying to kill luke he was destroying the thing he was stood on.

Dooku uses it when he fights Yoda in AotC, just as yoda does his bouncing off the wall act, dooku's saber narrowly misses him when he throws it.

Solo4114
04-12-2003, 01:13 PM
Toms, check the post I made earlier in the thread (the really LONG one). I described a potential system where blocking ability reduces over time and where the ability to string moves together in a combo gives a greater likelihood of breaking defenses.

Prime
04-12-2003, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by Wavey Davey
Saber throw is actually used twice in the movies. Allow me to retort...

Originally posted by Wavey Davey
Vader, as everyone knows about and might i add that that was not ineffective because he wasn't trying to kill luke he was destroying the thing he was stood on. This has been discussed at great length, and I don't want to go through that again here. But lets look at what we actually see, and go from there. What we see is Vader toss his lightsaber at the walkway Luke is on. There is no evidence that Vader is using the Force to guide his lightsaber to the target. Much more likely, he is just physically throwing it, like you or I could. Secondly, we do not see the saber fly back neatly into Vader's had right after he throws it. Certainly, he could easily call it back after he has thrown it, but the movies show no evidence that Jedi/Sith/whatever throw their lightsabers, guide them to their target, and immediately pull them back before they hit the ground.

Originally posted by Wavey Davey
Dooku uses it when he fights Yoda in AotC, just as yoda does his bouncing off the wall act, dooku's saber narrowly misses him when he throws it. Check again, the scene I believe you are refering too, when Yoda hops up and around on the wall, we see the tip of Dooku's saber zip buy. I think it is quite clear that Dooku is just taking a swing at Yoda, not throwing his saber at him.

Or are you refering to something else?

boinga1
04-12-2003, 05:10 PM
By manually blocking, do you mean *hold down a button and block whatever comes your way* or *hit a button to block every individual shot*? And btw I don't think that a system where blocking probability decreases is good because that would make the Imperial Heavy Repeater and E-11 Blaster too powerful. People could just sit there and repeat at you until your blocking chance went down far enough that you could easily be killed. I like blocking the way it is; I say, don't change it.

Silent_Thunder
04-12-2003, 05:33 PM
People would NOT be holding the block button down the whole time their not attacking. No, the block button (which would surely be the right mouse key), when pressed would bring the saber up in a defensive position, enabiling AUTO blocks to be more succesful. The longer the saber is up in the block position the more force power is used, and the less success you have with deflecting an attack. Therefore, it would be logical to assume that most people would attempt to time thier blocks just right when being shot at, or seeing an obviously-telegraphed saber swing. At other times players would rather hold down the block button, even though it may not be quite as effective as timing it just right -- for example; succesful blocking of repeater fire would defiantly need the Jedi to hold the block key down.

So, in the end 'manual' blocking (it STILL is auto blocking, in reality) would merely be in place to make blocking JUST if not MORE effective than before, but requir more skill than just standing still and waiting...

Actually, after some thought, this is how I think the blocking should work:

When your character is not attacking you have a good chance of blocking attacks that are launched at, or very close to your saber. This is just a weaker version of the auto blocking we currently see. All deflected shots fly off in random locations, and do not home in on the attacker.

When you hold down the right mouse key your character goes into a more defensive position. While in this position you will have a chance to block attacks that come at you from any direction. The farther away from your saber an attack comes, the less likely it is for you to block it. The longer you hold down the block key the less likely for a succesfuly block you will have. Therefore a quick tap of the block key would be most effective -- but it would require much more timing, especially in lightsaber duels. When deflecting a laser or other projectile the deflected projectile will be launched at the NPC that is closest to where your recticle is pointing. It wouldn't require perfect aiming to deflect a shot... it would simply be reflected to the NPC that the Saber Blocking system detects you are targeting.

While holding down the saber block the jedi moves slower, uses up force power, and exhausts the success rate of blocking.

When a player succesfully blocks another player with a lightsaber the one who is blocked is slightly penalized for a brief moment. The one who is blocked has his saber slightly pushed out of the way, making a counter block harder to accomplish (since it's farther away). This would not be an artificial penalty, but merely one that is logical since the saber is farther away. The farther away a saber is knocked away would depend on how long the blocking player held the block key. The longer the block key is held, the smaller advantage it will give. Therefore a quick tap of the block key would give the biggest advantage, and a long held out defensive manuever, with a succesful block will result in virtually no advantage except the damage saved from blocking.

When two lightsabers strike each other in an attack move, but neither player blocks, the two sabers will block each other, but neither player will be penalized.

I personally think this kind of compromized system, where the blocking system is still virtually automatic, but where the clear gameplay advantages of the manual blocking system are still in place, will give the most movie like, and strategic saber fighting yet.

BTW, I never saw Dooku throw his saber in AotCs... I might have missed it though. I did see him doing a funky spin move where he spun counter clockwise while switching his saber from one hand to the other, and swinging clockwise... It looked vaguely similar to the move in JO where you get the saber to spin around you momentarily.

Alexandrus
04-12-2003, 05:38 PM
There should be a server side option to select if blocking is manual or automatic.
Most people preffer automatic blocking, but I say that in order to become a real Jedi(or Sith), you need to be in FULL controll of your saber.

Prime
04-13-2003, 02:35 AM
Originally posted by boinga1
By manually blocking, do you mean *hold down a button and block whatever comes your way* or *hit a button to block every individual shot*? And btw I don't think that a system where blocking probability decreases is good because that would make the Imperial Heavy Repeater and E-11 Blaster too powerful. People could just sit there and repeat at you until your blocking chance went down far enough that you could easily be killed. I like blocking the way it is; I say, don't change it. This was exactly the issue brought up in one of the older threads, and it is a good one. As soon as you make it so that blocking becomes steadily worse over time, opponants are just going to wear you down until you can't defend yourself.

Originally posted by Silent_Thunder
People would NOT be holding the block button down the whole time their not attacking. No, the block button (which would surely be the right mouse key), when pressed would bring the saber up in a defensive position, enabiling AUTO blocks to be more succesful. The longer the saber is up in the block position the more force power is used, and the less success you have with deflecting an attack. Therefore, it would be logical to assume that most people would attempt to time thier blocks just right when being shot at, or seeing an obviously-telegraphed saber swing. At other times players would rather hold down the block button, even though it may not be quite as effective as timing it just right -- for example; succesful blocking of repeater fire would defiantly need the Jedi to hold the block key down.But what about the problem mentioned above from boinga1's post? If me attacking you means I lower your force pool and you become less effective at defending, I am just going to load up on ammo for my blaster rifle and repeater. Then I'm just going to stand there are hold down the trigger. You can't let go of the block button because then your dead. Two things are going to happen next. First, I will keep firing until you have no force left and thus can't defend against my fire. I win as I pump you full of bolts. So Easy. Or I might fire at you and again drain your force pool. Now I decide to bust out my grip and lightning. Since you have no force available for absorb, I just BBQ you and then grip you into a pit. Too easy, as all I had to do what continually shoot at you.

Being able to block with the same effectiveness forces me to use another tactic because just alt-firing the blaster gains me nothing. The lightsaber is already limited against guns because of its extremely short range. It's main usefulness in guns FFA is as a defensive tool. Adding a force tax on top of it makes the lighsaber really useless.

Solo4114
04-13-2003, 10:38 AM
Against guns, you could have a different calculation come into effect. Whereas your blocking likelihood decreases quickly against a concentrated sabre attack, against a single opponent firing continuously at you, you could have that decrease take MUCH longer. Not so long as to deplete the opponent's ammunition, but long enough that you can close the distance against them.

Alternatively, you could have a system where the type of projectile has a different penetration value for purposes of blocking. So while you could shoot a whole mess of repeater primary shots at someone, most of them would not get through because they'd have a weaker penetration value. The E-11 would have a slightly higher value, etc., etc. This could also allow for the incorporation of heavier blaster weapons and move us away from the explosive weapons we saw in JO. The heavier the blaster you use, the more likely you are to penetrate defenses in shorter time.

Prime
04-13-2003, 08:36 PM
Originally posted by Solo4114
Against guns, you could have a different calculation come into effect. Whereas your blocking likelihood decreases quickly against a concentrated sabre attack, against a single opponent firing continuously at you, you could have that decrease take MUCH longer. Not so long as to deplete the opponent's ammunition, but long enough that you can close the distance against them. But if they keep backing up, how will you close the distance :) Picky, I know, but even with full blocking now, it is not always easy getting to gunners. Good gunners keep well out of range of the sabers. And then your right back to the same problem of running out of Force power and getting toasted.

Originally posted by Solo4114
Alternatively, you could have a system where the type of projectile has a different penetration value for purposes of blocking. So while you could shoot a whole mess of repeater primary shots at someone, most of them would not get through because they'd have a weaker penetration value. The E-11 would have a slightly higher value, etc., etc. This could also allow for the incorporation of heavier blaster weapons and move us away from the explosive weapons we saw in JO. The heavier the blaster you use, the more likely you are to penetrate defenses in shorter time. Not to get into all sorts of technical silliness, but I would think a weapon that fires more shots is more likely to score a hit, simply because you have to deflect more shots. More powerful energy weapons shouldn't be harder, but easier to defend against, because they fire fewer shots. Since they are all energy, the lighsaber can physically deflect them just as easily. But that's not the real issue.

The real issue as I see it is that all this doesn't make lightsaber combat better. It just makes it different. Why is manual blocking going to make duels and so on better? It's not like players can't score hits now. Manual blocking seems to just add one more control you have to worry about when fighting. There are already enough of those when you are using force powers. :)

Solo4114
04-13-2003, 08:54 PM
Ok, so if the guns fire pure energy with no concussive effect, why do they so obviously recoil in the movies? And why do they fire in bolts instead of rays???? HMMMMMM??? Don't have an answer for THAT now DO ya, smart guy? :) (not that it really matters anyway)

As for the backing up issue, didn't Raven slow down backup speed relative to the other directions? I thought that was something they did with 1.04 (one of the good things, actually).

You'd still need to have some sort of point where the blocking ability is used up, and that's where the different charged projectiles would come in. Less powerful projectiles would use that ability up slower, whereas more powerful projectiles would use it up faster. That said, if you can fire a butt-load of smaller charged projectiles in a short span of time, you'll use up the blocking ability that much faster. I don't, however, think this should be tied to the force. This should be something that goes on behind the scenes (and maybe you get a visual indicator of when you're going to run out of blocking power).

As for why manual blocking is better it's precisely because you get more control. It would also require that people LEARN to control that ability rather than just trust the computer. Yes, you can currently score hits on people, but it's fairly random, not tied to aim at all, and you still have no control over it. Regardless, I think the blocking itself could be automatic, but the parrying could be a separate type of attack (IE: a secondary attack) that works only when you're being attacked by someone else and when it's timed correctly. The parry then opens up the enemy's defenses, and from there you have to actuall score regular attack hits. I think this would also help speed up the game.

Maybe the current system could be left for duels (in a tweaked form, that is -- less randomness please), but the other systems used for FFA/CTF/etc.

ILR
04-13-2003, 10:21 PM
Not sure if this has been said or not.. there is manual blocking in JKII with console commands. All they do is when you press the button you assign to block, you cannot attack and you use the same ol' auto blocking. Its the same as just leaving auto block on and simply not slashing. I think when people say "manual blocking" they mean "effective blocking that can actually stop a slash or two". JKII's auto blocking couldn't block ****. Your best bet was to dodge the slash all together. I think this is what people want changed in the new saber system.

Doctor Shaft
04-13-2003, 11:14 PM
Auto blocking all the way.

Going along with the comments about internet lag issues, keep in mind that implementing manual blocking adds a complexity to a certain weapon that would surely suffer for it.

Take all these auto blocking ideas. Now let's say I give you a lethal lightsaber, and all of these powers, and then I put you in a room full of gunners. For now they won't use explosive cannons, they'll take their repeaters and blasters, and hop around here and there. Now, please tell me where you would find all of this time to concentrate on pressing manual block while dodging rampant fire and people leaping here and there trying to hit you?

Manual blocking is too complicated. JKII/JK/JKIII are first person shooters, which means that everything is happening at real time, all attacks happen suddenly. There is no time to react to attacks and constantly press a guard button and aim in certain directions. Promod was the best idea when it came to a blocking function. It got rid of a cumbersome "block" button, and simply relied on how well you aimed. Even then, your blocking was not all powerful, but it was a step in the less random direction. I think that's as far as it can and should go.

Basically, manual blocking, if you really think about it, is useless to a FPS game. Why? Well, if you actually bother playing the FULL game (it's amazing how many people insist on playing only a quarter of it, i.e. saberz 0nly, n0 f0rc3 p0w3rz), you'd see that blocking plays an infinitely small role in the game. When I played JK2++, Promod, etc., where my saber was actually a weapon and not a bat, you barely had time to think about who or what you were going to block. Especially in JK2++. If you were a saberist, like me, most of your opponents were gunners, and EVERYONE had force speed 3. Please tell me where that space of time exists where I can sit back and think about pressing the block button, etc? All of my keys are taken up by force powers that I HAVE to use, switch stances at appropriate moments, etc., and and majority of you want to go and complicate things even further. What's worse is that the complication has NO BENEFIT (assuming you actually play the game instead of just half of it).

Even more, we already read the comments saying that gameplay would slow down. This is very true. How am I supposed to enjoy a full game (i.e., we play the whole game, not 25% of it) when half the time I'm plagued with messing around with my manual block key (which I will probably hardly use). When someone else pulls out the lightsaber, suddenly we are both stuck thinking about when and where to push the block button. MEANWHILE, the gunners, who are smart and stick to the less complicated stuff, simply click and shoot, click and shoot, click and shoot, wiping us saber n00bies out in style! One of the keys on my keyboard is completely worn out from both the incessant pressing and tapping of it, sometimes in anger as I scream "stupid block key, block that stuff". It's just a bad idea on all sides. Some of us can't even agree how manual blocking should work. In the end, manual blocking in an fps would simply be a "toggle your auto blocking system" button. It's redundant and doesn't really have a logical place in the game.

Evasion is best. That's what fps is about. The JKII blocking system was MORE than adequate. If you hated the random saber to saber blocking system, get promod. It wasn't random at all, AND it didn't add any cumbersome blocking system either. It was entirely intuitive. I simply had to stand correctly and watch to block reliably, it all came naturally, without effort. A manual block system is NOT INTUITIVE at all. Just my two cents.

ILR
04-13-2003, 11:34 PM
Doctor Shaft, I agreed with you all the way up until the last paragraph. Auto or manual blocking aside.. the potency of blocking is scarcly adequate for this game. In SP, (where blocking is the best), the fact still remains that givin the right situation, your enemy's saber will pass through your own saber. It's also true that you CANNOT stand your ground when facing a dark Jedi... Kyle does not extend his saber outward the least bit to stop attacks. The only way to make your idle saber block a slash is to point Kyle's body in a direction so that his stance model will position the idel saber in just the right spot. And if your opponent uses red stance (Desann, for example) his saber will pass through yours no matter what.

The best way to have any kind of defense in JKII is to dodge everything, like you've said in your post. People with guns dodge.. people with force drivin deflection techniques don't dodge. A classic line comes to me about the force.. (ben and luke talking about the force)

"You mean in controls my actions?"
"Partially.. it also obey's your commands."

I understand the value in autoblocking, but my prefered style gets shafted because I simply cannot effectively block a simple incoming slash. There are many things you can do to counter an oncoming slash.. but in JKII.. blocking it isn't one of them.

Prime
04-14-2003, 12:17 AM
Originally posted by Solo4114
Ok, so if the guns fire pure energy with no concussive effect, why do they so obviously recoil in the movies? And why do they fire in bolts instead of rays???? HMMMMMM??? Don't have an answer for THAT now DO ya, smart guy? :) (not that it really matters anyway) It's obvious! Star Wars physics :) It's the same reason why there is sound in space...

Originally posted by Solo4114
As for the backing up issue, didn't Raven slow down backup speed relative to the other directions? I thought that was something they did with 1.04 (one of the good things, actually). You know what, you might be right about that. That does ring a bell. I looked in the readmes for the patches and didn't see it though...

Originally posted by Solo4114
As for why manual blocking is better it's precisely because you get more control. It would also require that people LEARN to control that ability rather than just trust the computer. Yes, you can currently score hits on people, but it's fairly random, not tied to aim at all, and you still have no control over it. See, I don't find it completely random. Maybe this is what causes our views (and both camps views) to differ. I find that hits aren't random, at least a server with a low ping. I find that when I attack an opening, I feel I do connect when I should connect. I also feel that with just a mouse and direction keys, I have exceptional control over my lightsaber. I can control what direction I swing, diagionally down or up, straight up or down, spins, special moves. I feel that I can move the saber the way I want it to move. I guess that's also why I don't see the need for manual blocking. I already have lots of control, and adding that would almost be too much to control.

I'm not trying to dump on your ideas, man. On the contrary, you have some interesting and well thought out ideas, even if I don't agree with them all. But at least it makes me think about why I don't want manual blocking :)

Originally posted by ILR
The best way to have any kind of defense in JKII is to dodge everything, like you've said in your post. People with guns dodge.. people with force drivin deflection techniques don't dodge...

I understand the value in autoblocking, but my prefered style gets shafted because I simply cannot effectively block a simple incoming slash. There are many things you can do to counter an oncoming slash.. but in JKII.. blocking it isn't one of them.Man, I don't find this at all, especially in SP. As long as I'm not swing like a fool, I find I can block most swings coming my way. Remember, this has a great reliance on the ping, so if you have a high ping, it won't matter at all. It also depends what stance you are in. You can certainly block many swings that would otherwise mean death :)

Deadeye
04-14-2003, 12:41 AM
I agree mostly with you ILR.

I personally like the manual blocking mostly for use in saber duels. As far as saber vs gun combat, I would like to see an autoblocking system that deflects blaster bolts, but if you hit the block button at the moment of impact, you can definitely aim back at your opponent, like Jedi Power Battles. I do agree that the trouble with manual blocking is where to bind it. The keys that surround WADS are bound to force powerson my keyboard too, but I have a MS explorer with two extra buttons. I also bind push and pull to wheel up and wheel down, respectively. I would bind the block button probably to the the mouse wheel press, and still have room for the other powers.

My biggest draw to this game is the saber duels. My favorite thing to do with JO these days is to play that ladder level that sends Reborn after you. I like the idea of manual blocking b/c it adds a little bit of twitch skill that you have to time right with saber impacts. I think it would give the duels a little more life, and make them feel more like sword fights. This would also make you feel more Jedi-like when delfecting laser bolts. Instead of just standing there, you can actually take action and block those bolts back at the enemy with your twitch skills. Its like you're actually doing the saber manuvers.

Boy this is a heated discussion. It started out with most votes to the manual blocking. Now auto is catching up! In the end I would bet that Raven left the saber combat alone, and only added to the two stances for the light staff, and the dual sabers.

HertogJan
04-14-2003, 07:13 AM
Laser bolts etc. should be blocked automaticly. Blocking sabers would look a lot like in JK2, but in addition to that, you can press a defensive block button, which will block the red stance swings too... But it should be made so that you can't just block forever, that would encourage laming...

Echuu Shen-Jon
04-14-2003, 08:14 AM
I can't remember, who said it. But he/she said that we only have seen a lightsabre being thrown. If you've read the Thrawn Trilogy, you will remember that Luke killed many Noghri's in one throw!

Prime
04-14-2003, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by Deadeye
I personally like the manual blocking mostly for use in saber duels. As far as saber vs gun combat, I would like to see an autoblocking system that deflects blaster bolts, but if you hit the block button at the moment of impact, you can definitely aim back at your opponent, like Jedi Power Battles.This is a neat idea. I haven't played Power Battles, so I'm not sure how well it works, but it sounds pretty cool.

Originally posted by Deadeye
Boy this is a heated discussion. It started out with most votes to the manual blocking. Now auto is catching up! In the end I would bet that Raven left the saber combat alone, and only added to the two stances for the light staff, and the dual sabers. Could this mean that all my ranting is starting to pay off?? :p Although it is a heated discussion, I think it is a good discussion. There are many good points on both sides.

Solo4114
04-14-2003, 02:05 PM
The more I see in this discussion, the more I think a mixed manual/auto system would work best, with limits on how long you can autoblock. You shouldn't be able to autoblock forever. To me, that seems just a bit excessive. That's why I think that, perhaps, tying how long you can auto block to your defense level would work well. For blocking guns, you could have the autoblock work for X amount of seconds, or Y value of projectile hits, or something like that. The manual blocking would work well in the Power Battles sense where, if you hit manual blocking at the right moment, you'll deflect back at the opponent (otherwise any deflected shots get shot off at random, I guess).

For the sabre combat, I still like my auto/manual block setup and the combos to break the blocking. :) Alternatively, you could do strictly autoBLOCKING, but manual PARRYING, which would be similar to the guns thing. You'd get to autoblock X number of attacks, depending on stance and if that stance trumps yours, or you can try to time a parry properly (And if you miss, either open yourself up to attack or just block) and go on the offensive.

You know, one thing that occurred to me is that, even if Raven never does anythnig like this, we've got some GREAT ideas for mods in here. Now if only I could code....

Doctor Shaft
04-14-2003, 02:39 PM
Jedi Power Battles is not a GOOD example of a manual blocking system. Why? Because Power Battles has nothing to do with the Jedi Knight series. The games are COMPLETELY different in style.

Manual blocking is not something that would be very functional in the FULL setting of the game. It would merely become eye-candy, or an added feature for people who enjoy long, drawn out, saber contests.

Also, people have mentioned that with manual blocking they'd be able to block red stance. Need I mention that the CSC aiming system of Promod took care of all of this stuff, AND it didn't require a blocking button? I do not see how a manual blocking system can be superior to an auto system dependent on aim AND current movement. If you moved foward, your blocking was weak, and most shots would break your guard. If you stood still, blocking was normal, meaning that plenty of shots could get through. If you ran backwards, you had decent blocking. strafing, running, ducking, and walking, all increased or decreased your blocking abilities. So yes, it was no longer random AND it was a completely intuitive system. There were no extra buttons to push, no systems to activate. you just had to position yourself. This allows smooth, natural battles. People moved, and they simply had to position themselves correctly to either break someone's guard or parry attacks.

This "add a block button " stuff was made completely irrelevant by the Promod system. There's simply no logical reason, if a new blocking system were to be implemented, to ditch the Promod system and add this Jedi Power Battles system.

Let me tell you what the Jedi Power Battles system did. First, since the game was an arcade beat-em up, your blocking system was pretty much infinite. It said that after a certain number of hits, etc, your guard would break. Let me tell you that it almost never happens. When a blaster is fired at you, if you press the block button just before it hits, you'll reflect straight at the enemy. Cool feature... except for the fact that in JKII, your enemy isn't a dumb, one laser per five minutes shooting droid! You're up against rockets, imperial rifle blasters on rapid fire, repeaters, etc. And your target is smart enough to move out of the way. Once again, a manual system becomes irrelevant. Jedi Power Battles also witnessed a very slow combat system. You block, the enemy attacks, you attack, the enemy blocks, blah blah. No fluid motion at all. You just block till the person opens up, then lay the smack down. I know this game isn't about realism, but how much blocking do you really think you can do in a sword fight? I don't care if it is Star Wars either, the last thing we need is a complicated block system. Promod's was just fine. Of course, Raven won't address this issue at all, most likely, and just leave it to random blocking .

In the end, I'd prefer random blocking to manual blocking any day of the week. Manual blocking would really benefit one group of people: someone who likes complicated saber only combat. Dueling. I like dueling too, but not something where I have a block button. This isn't Mortal Kombat. Once you have a "block" animation, two things happen. You either 1.) just made the console JK2 style blocking system. In other words, it's auto blocking made cumbersome and slow, which helps NO ONE. 2.) you've made a blocking system that's stronger than the old one. So now, like Street Fighter, you've gotta come up with a counter to the blocking system. Like a throw. OR, you'd have to make it so that we had several blocking animations as well, for low, high, etc. Oh goody, now you've made the system even more complicated, cumbersome, and slow. Manual blocking, while SOUNDING cool would completely destroy the game OR simply add a more annoying, cumbersome auto-blocking system that we ALREADY HAVE. No need to make it harder to use. Plus, keep in mind, not all of us "saberists" are duelers. I don't care for the practice. The idea of having 'honorable' sword combat all the time is pointless to me. I enjoy the ctf/ffa crowd. Where all of the weapons are in the fray, where multiple fighting styles are present. The last thing I would need is this suped up, sophisticated block system to get in the way. A manual blocking system simply wouldn't help a person playing the FULL game at all.

Prime
04-14-2003, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by Solo4114
The more I see in this discussion, the more I think a mixed manual/auto system would work best, with limits on how long you can autoblock. You shouldn't be able to autoblock forever. To me, that seems just a bit excessive. But why do you think it is excessive? Why should defense weaken over time? Is the Jedi getting tired? Or is it just for gaming purposes? The lightsaber is already limited enough with its extremely short range.

If you want to tone down auto-blocking, I would say a better way would be to have the angle you are facing compared with your opponant come into play. But I think that you should be able to block an attack that comes straight on when you are in a defense position.

Blademaster_109
04-14-2003, 05:20 PM
The way i see it there is no good from either and this is worrying me. If u make it manual then the saber combat would be slowed down. Another bad thing is that if u make it manual people with guns will rule over the saber. If its automatic then when u attack someone at ne point in time the could block it and no damage would be done.

Anakin1607
04-14-2003, 11:45 PM
Automatic,

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Solo4114
04-15-2003, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by Prime
But why do you think it is excessive? Why should defense weaken over time? Is the Jedi getting tired? Or is it just for gaming purposes? The lightsaber is already limited enough with its extremely short range.

If you want to tone down auto-blocking, I would say a better way would be to have the angle you are facing compared with your opponant come into play. But I think that you should be able to block an attack that comes straight on when you are in a defense position.

I think it's excessive because it can slow things down and it can also make sabreists untouchable by gunners (depending on the weapons they give gunners -- and I'd like to see less explosive stuff and more blaster based stuff). It also does remove a certain amount of skill from the game. If blocking is set too high, I can back myself into a corner and walk away from the keyboard, and the other guy will still have a tough time killing me, even with lethal sabres. So, for gameplay balance at least, it's important.

As far as an explanation dealing with the Force, you can say that the jedi's concentration wanes over time. So, at different levels, you'd be able to autoblock for different amounts of time. The higher the level, the long amount of time.

I have less of a problem with autoblocking, I just think that a manual parrying system would be nice, since it would add a new dimension to the game and require skill to use (presumably).

ProMod was good, but my problem with it was actually with the movement stuff. Yes, autoblocking should reduce as you move, but I never felt that the moving forward = higher offense, moving backwards = higher defense thing was entirely workable. In theory it makes sense, but in practice, it leads to matches where people duck down and back up, while the other guy turns on rage and/or speed and attacks by running forward. I'd like to have fights be a little more stationary, or at least not involve quite so much running around.

An aiming system would be fine, in that an autoblocking system could take into account the angle from which an attack came. On the other hand, that could make things unnecessarily complicated, and while requiring skill to use, might also turn newbies (not n00bs, mind you) off from the game. Let's face it, it's no fun getting your ass kicked. A newbie shouldn't necessarily be able to take out an experienced player, unless they get lucky, but they should still be able to have fun in the game.

I think automatic blocking plus a manual parry button would be a relatively uncomplicated system. Learning combos to break defenses, and a trump system (one of the best concepts from ProMod) that makes sense would work too. Thus, the newbie would be able to pick up that a particular stance will ALWAYS beat another stance, and so learn to switch stances and not be tied down to only playing red, yellow, or blue.

I'd like to see people encouraged to learn the whole sabre combat system, rather than just one particular stance. At the same time, though, I think that people should be given the ability to survive if they have a particular style they prefer (IE: finess over brawn, strength over speed, etc.). The real masters of the game, though, would be able to use all three interchangably.

GhostLotus
04-15-2003, 12:31 PM
Well lets go to the root of this, not the universe, not realism but gameplay....

1:Are you ever pissed off with people blocking too much in jo?
Allright well it does seem a bit awkward at times i am more annoyed with the continuas up-to-down slashers who NEVER use block.

2:Why do you think red stance is so popular?
People want fights to be fast, done after the first 3 slashes, while fast style(not very true to its name) needs more strategic play against a good player because hits dont damage much.

The only addition i can think of is a soul-calibur-esque parry, this might be a good idea against the strong stance since people wont be able to get hits in that easily.

Prime
04-15-2003, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by Solo4114
I think it's excessive because it can slow things down and it can also make sabreists untouchable by gunners (depending on the weapons they give gunners -- and I'd like to see less explosive stuff and more blaster based stuff). It also does remove a certain amount of skill from the game. If blocking is set too high, I can back myself into a corner and walk away from the keyboard, and the other guy will still have a tough time killing me, even with lethal sabres. So, for gameplay balance at least, it's important.Unfortunately, saberists are already at a disadvantage against gunners. Reducing their defensive capabilities would lead to a slaughter. I agree with moving the guns more so to the blaster style and away from the explosive style for the most part. Thermal detonators and stuff are cool though. As for people backing into the corner, you can always DFA of uppercut :)

Originally posted by Solo4114
I have less of a problem with autoblocking, I just think that a manual parrying system would be nice, since it would add a new dimension to the game and require skill to use (presumably).I would be more keen to go this route than to change auto-blocking outright. Maybe have manual parrying open yourself up if it fails.

Originally posted by Solo4114
ProMod was good, but my problem with it was actually with the movement stuff. Yes, autoblocking should reduce as you move, but I never felt that the moving forward = higher offense, moving backwards = higher defense thing was entirely workable.I am not a fan of the Promod system either, and looking at the number of servers, neither is anyone else. I'd prefer to solely rely on the angle you are facing, not the movement. Penalizing players for moving around could make for a boring game if everyone is just standing around.

Originally posted by Solo4114
An aiming system would be fine, in that an autoblocking system could take into account the angle from which an attack came. On the other hand, that could make things unnecessarily complicated, and while requiring skill to use, might also turn newbies (not n00bs, mind you) off from the game. Let's face it, it's no fun getting your ass kicked.I'm not sure why this would make things more complicated, especially compared with manual blocking. I'm not saying that you have to be facing straight on to be able to block anything. But your defence should decrease as you increase the angle, to the point where you don't have any defence directly behind you.

Originally posted by Solo4114
I'd like to see people encouraged to learn the whole sabre combat system, rather than just one particular stance. Unfortunately, as long as there are people who don't take the time to learn, this will always be the case.

Orangina_Rouge
04-15-2003, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by Prime
I am not a fan of the Promod system either, and looking at the number of servers, neither is anyone else. I'd prefer to solely rely on the angle you are facing, not the movement. Penalizing players for moving around could make for a boring game if everyone is just standing around.


Considering that a lot of people NEVER tried it, u can t judge if people were fans or not .... and looking at the number of servers of JO now, i can tell you that not a lot of people are still fan or playing normal JO....... all is left is people juste looking to have a boring jedi saber fight, the competitive players scene left for more interesting games :rolleyes:

Now did u actually played more than a few minutes to come up with your complaint about promod system ???
Cause looking at what you say it doesn t sound you really bothered to understand the system
Moving around does not penalize you
If i see someone standing around, then the poor guy is DEAD cause i will outmaneuver him very quickly and have a bonus to attack sin i m moving around forward

Personnally i played promod since the beta 1 was released and i can t think of a more balanced and fun gameplay for JO at this time .......simply cause plain JO and other mods failed to bring this.

Now i just wait to see if Raven and LEC learnt from their mistakes and release a fun and balanced game with JA ....... but i highly doubt it regarding how they ruined their reputation ( at least for me ) with JO

Noxrepere
04-15-2003, 05:32 PM
I agree with you Prime.

I vote to keep the automatic blocking. I believe that the most important part of games is fun. I don't see how changing to a manual blocking system would improve the current game play and make it more fun.

This might be a little long but I want to address as many issues as I remember that have been brought up in the last few pages of posts.

Currently each playing individual can approach any given situation in a variety of ways. There are many options for attacking and defending against attacks. I someone wants to block lasers and just wait for the rebounding lasers to kill their opponent they can do that, or they can be aggressive and take an offensive stance to try and attack their opponent.

By making a limited blocking system relying on some meter that depletes with each successfully blocked shot, it forces all players to play a particular way, rather than how they want to play. This meter idea also has drawbacks as far as the number of opponents is concerned. Having a meter that depletes might not make a noticeable difference against a lone Stormtrooper, but entering a room with 20 or more would pose a very serious problem. Players couldn't just enter the room and start attacking because the laser fire from a massive number of opponents would deplete the meter much more rapidly than a single opponent. This would force all players to stay back and hide. They would only be able to take out a couple of opponents before they were forced to go back and hide around a corner waiting for their block meter to recharge.

Making successful blocks deplete the force meter would play out even worse. No player would ever want to use any force powers, including jump, because they would be leaving themselves defenseless. For example: what if the player performs a series of jumps to scale a cliff only to arrive at the top and be killed by a single Stormtrooper because they were incapable of blocking since they had no force left in their force meter.

Another important situation would be when the player encounters several Jedi. Already we've seen several screenshots from JA where the player is defending against up to seven Jedi opponents. If limited blocking were implemented these battles would be nothing more than the player running around frantically trying to hit their opponent in the back. Currently players can choose to run behind their opponent to hit them, but they also have the option of fighting directly with the opponent and enjoying the experience of lightsaber battle.

As far as manual blocking without a block meter goes, the player could just hold the block button down and block until they decided to attack, which is exactly like the current system but holding an extra button.

I think most people probably have the "Always Run" option checked so they don't have to hold a button down to run. The same principle can be applied to having to hold down a block button.

The Playstation game Jedi Power Battles had a manual blocking system with a block meter, and that was a huge pain whenever your Jedi was in an area with multiple enemies they would deplete the block meter very quickly and leave you defenseless. This forced the player to inch forward into each area to try and take on opponents one at a time. This severely slowed down the game play. The Jedi battles against Darth Maul were even worse. If the player tried to block, Darth Maul would attack and the player would only be capable of blocking one to two attacks before the block meter filled up and left the player totally defenseless. This really isn't a very good template for a making a fun game.

I've also played ProMod and found the movement far to restrictive. That system required the player the move backwards to have the highest level of success against an attack. Personally, I think the player should be able to block an attack no matter what direction they're moving as long as they are facing the player. This was much more of a problem if someone was shooting at a Jedi using this mod. The only way the Jedi could successfully block the incoming laser fire was to move backwards. This made absolutely impossible to close the distance between the Jedi and the gun-wielding opponent.

As previously mentioned by Prime, the saber is already at a disadvantage because it is a close range melee weapon. The saber damage should be lethal regardless of the stance and the attack. This allows everybody to choose their stance preference and know that they will be successful in attacking their opponent and rewarded with a kill. The battles in the movies lasted long because both Jedi participated in a constant exchange of defensive and offensive attacks. This should be reflected in the game, allowing good automatic blocking and lethal attacks and requiring the players to rely on their skill rather than the button mashing currently in multiplayer. If both players could deal lethal attacks and receive lethal attacks, good players would become more cautious rather than blinding continuing to attack to try and hit their opponent the multiple times required to cause a kill.

Many arguments seem to be aimed towards making the Jedi weaker rather than trying to directly improve the game play. A manual blocking system may sound good in theory from certain perspectives, but really doesn't belong in a fast paced Jedi action game such as this.

At no point in the movies does it ever indicate that the Jedi can only block for a limited amount of time. The Jedi that survived the Battle of Geonosis, survived because they were good at blocking and balancing that with correct times to attack.

Limited blocking would only slow down the game play and I don't want to see the game made slower and harder just for the sake of making a basic function such as blocking hard to do. The challenges of the game should be properly calculated to allow for fun game play with challenges that don't just cause frustration.

The Jedi are powerful and this should be reflected in the game. The saber to saber blocking could use some work as far as having the animations showing the Jedi reach out to meet the incoming saber rather than waiting for it to get closer, but the fundamentals of the automatic blocking system should remain. Another improvement that could be made to the blocking system would be that at the highest level of block you don't reflect every laser blast right back at the shooter. Not even the Jedi in the films do that. But besides some cosmetic and simple changes to the system it should remain relatively unchanged.

«¦gøt ƒørçë?¦»
04-15-2003, 07:33 PM
Im pretty sure this has already been said over and over but i dont wanna waste my time reading 20 pages of text...
i watched this picture: http://www.lucasarts.com/products/jediacademy/images/screens/5.jpg
and i was wandering whats is he doing?Blocking?Will it be possible to block manually with the Maul-Like sabers??

Ne0|eD3N :mex1:

Blademaster_109
04-15-2003, 07:56 PM
maybe, good question.

Solo4114
04-15-2003, 08:11 PM
Ok, so assuming it was left the same, how would we go about speeding up combat? As it stands, the blocking seems quite high. You really don't need to DO anything to keep blocking. Just stand tehre and let the computer do it for you. That kind of reduces the amount of skill involved in the game.

Maybe the way to go is a mixed system. Give people the option within the game. Not as an option like auto-run, but as an option during play. IE: you have autoblocking AND a manual block/parry button. You hit manual block when you want to block, but it's got to be split-second timing. You can't hold down manual block (it would only last for, say, 2 seconds with a 1 second cool-down time), but it'd be 100% effective if timed right.

The autoblocking could then be left similar to how it is now, but reduce the percentages of a successful block (assuming they need reduction). The autoblock could be, say, 25% effective at level 1 defense, 50% effective at level 2, and 75% effective at level 3, but the manual block would always be 100% effective, under certain conditions. (IE: manual block won't help in a trump situation with sabres, and won't help against explosives/heavy weapons.)

This way, there'd still be randomness and newbies would have a chance at playing the game, but the skilled players, those who'd honed their reflexes and had a sense for the game, would still be able to win consistently.

I dunno. I'm brainstorming here. What do you guys think of this one?

Blademaster_109
04-15-2003, 08:18 PM
got a question if u r on automatic does it block light sabers, and if it does then u couldn't hurt no one. But if it doesn't block automatically then it will turn back to button smashing.

Orangina_Rouge
04-15-2003, 08:33 PM
Originally posted by Solo4114
I dunno. I'm brainstorming here. What do you guys think of this one?

I think NO additionnal key involved in the saber defense
If people here doesn t like the movement variables of the promod system ( wich personnally i have no problem with ), it s not a problem: i would gladly see basic CSC implemented in plain JA to make skill involved with the saber combat ....... it s only natural to have aim involved in sucessful play in a FPS

And also make all stances useful ......

Ho and Btw ........ i voted the 3rd option not to say to give option for both, cause both sux ...... Automatic as it is totally ruins the gameplay and slows the pace of the game, and manual is out of question imo.
So i say automatic with a new system : CSC

Blademaster_109
04-15-2003, 09:40 PM
yeah automatic is ok but it turns into button smashing.

master_thomas
04-16-2003, 08:02 AM
Could be how he holds it, though that would not be good. Eventually his arm would get tired and trying to successfully block from that position would be difficult.

HertogJan
04-16-2003, 08:12 AM
I think it would be better to block while holding the sabers with two hands...

But you make an interesting point :) ALthough I think the developers just wanted to make it look like the way Darth Maul ignited his saber in EPI...

Deadeye
04-16-2003, 12:47 PM
I just wanted to reinterate what I had originally suggested. Only b/c of the course this thread is taking.

The Jedi Power battles way of manual blocking had the player hit the block button at the moment of impact of a laser bolt. If timed right, the bolt would 100% go back to the sender. What was also cool was that the animation had a cool, and vaired martial arts swing just like the movies. In JO if you run while being shot at, You're guy only has about 2 blocking posititions. It would be nice like in JPB to see you blocking all over the place like the battle at the end of EPII.

People were saying that you should not be able to manual block forever. I agree. I origianlly suggested a short block meter. It goes down with every impact on your saber. When it is drained, you better parry or get outta the way, b/c the next strike will probably get through, or at least will do a knock away. It's like you're blocking for so long that you're guy gets momentarily tired.
But not too long. I'm talking like ~8 blocks for blue stance strikes, ~6 for yellow, and maybe 1-2 for red stance. For laser impacts, maybe 10-12. This meter recharges very quickly too, so you are not w/o defense for long. This forces your opponent to act quickly and seek out those momentary openings. I still say that we have poly-to-poly collision detection with the sabers, so that even though you're block meter is drained, if you take a swing and your sabers meet, you still block. Since your meter is drained you're gonna get knocked away though, but it does allow for one more block, but it's risky b/c your sabers have to meet. If your opponent does an uppercut, or gets a wide strike from the side, you might not be able to anticipate where he's going and you won't be able to contact his saber. Better to do a roll, or flip outta the way, or that yellow stance flip over the guy move, and then your meter will charge up again. This creates this great movie-like back and forth competition with saber duels. I'm imagining the Obi-Wan Darth Maul duel right after the force field opens. You have that great clash, clash, clash! then obi-Wan parries. His meter is all charged up again, then bam! he's back in there. Or you can see when Darth Maul's meter is drained when Obi-Wan breaks his saber in half. It's like when your meter gets drained you get sorta overwhelmed by your opponent, so you have to get outta the way. Qui-Gon should have gotten outta the way, when his meter drained. He did what I was talking about earlier. His meter was drained, but he stuck his saber out anyway, and Darth Maul got thru anyway. -That's sorta the basis for my idea.

I also agree with the auto-blocker advotcates. We dont' want to complicate things anymore. Lag also plays a factor here too. That's why I think auto blocking should still mostly be left intact. But only to block blaster fire. Just like now, if you stand there and someome fires at you, you can block. Some of the bolts will in fact go back to the sender. But hit that block button at the right time, and every one will go back. Plus it makes you sorta feel like you're doing to the blocking. -more immersive. With saber duels, just hold down the button until you're ready to strike. Or start swinging and try to break thru your opponents defense meter.
Don't think of it as this whole mode, or stance. It's just a button that tells the engine to put your saber where the impacts are coming from. Let the collision detection do the rest.

The other thing that I think would be cool, would be that you press the 1 button and you take out your hilt. Hit it again and you ignite. Or you can hit primary attack to ignite and swing. -like it is now. It might be a nice style factor if you can stand there with your hilt, and then hit the ignite button, and do some cool-looking, confident, baddass ignitions. For all those lightstaffers out there, you might do Darth Maul's cool ignition. I think they should create several different ignition animations, that correlate to your character's level in training. At first you don't look so confident. Remember when Kyle killed Maw in JK1? When Jerec walked up Kyle was all scared and pointing his saber around like "Who's there!?" Something like that would be good at the beginning of the game. As you become a master, you might stand there with your feet shoulder-width apart, and your hilt in one hand and aiming down to the side. Then, bddshuuuush!. As if to say, "wanna go?" I like games with a lot of style. I think this might make you feel even more immersed as a jedi with these little touches. I wanna get excited every time I come across another saber-weilder.

Ok thanks for listening you guys.

UgonDieFoo
04-16-2003, 01:22 PM
I’m just gonna throw out the idea I had for saber combat a while back. I think it would be a good system for Jedi Academy.

It would be cool if the saber system was reworked so that saber combat and defense involved the use of force. It should take a certain amount of force to block and incoming shot from a saber. The amount of force it takes should depend on certain factors, like where the blow is landing, what kind of swing was used, the timing of the blow and how direct the blow was. For example, a head on light stance attack that was made from the very edge of swinging distance should take very little force to block. Heavier blows that are more direct, properly timed, and that land farther away from the center of an opponent’s defense should take more force to block accordingly. Theoretically, you should be able to block any blow provided you have enough force to do so. However, if you lack the force to block a particular blow, it would penetrate your defense. A direct red stance attack from behind should probably bypass anyone’s defense, unless maybe if they have a full force meter. Other things would be taken into account, such as if two opponents swing at the same time. If they both hit each other, then the sabers should collide and each opponent should lose force as if they both blocked. If one hits and one does not, then the person who missed should still be able the block but should lose a lot of force. This would allow for one hit kill sabers without messing up saber fighting.

This system would possibly be a great improvement over the current system for several reasons. It would help to eliminate the random feel of saber fighting by introducing a definitive system in which skillful sabering and defense was rewarded. The problem of randomness in the defensive arc would also be addresses by this system. In addition, the saber could be made so that it is extremely lethal, as in a one hit kill, and this wouldn’t create problems in dueling the way it would currently. Also, the same kind of system could work when it comes to blocking shots from guns, although less force should be required to block a shot from a gun than from a saber swing in general. This, combined with sabers that kill in basically one shot, might help to improve the balance of guns vs. sabers. In general it would be a lot more fun to play this way.

Another idea that might be nice would be to vary the effect of certain force powers on an opponent based on how much force they have. For example, a push or pull could be made to have little or no effect on someone with full force, but have a great effect on someone who has depleted his force meter. The same kind of principal could be used for other force powers as well. This might be better for gameplay and balance. Also, if this element was combined with sabering system I described above, it might make for some truly interesting and dynamic saber duels. Conservative and intelligent use of force powers along with skillful sabering would become necessary. Unintelligent abuse of force powers would leave you vulnerable.

A force based saber system would probably be better than other systems, like manual blocking. Manual blocking has inherent flaws, like when it comes to online ping. Also manual blocking faces practicality issues when it comes to gameplay. The autoblock system in place now has its own inherent flaws, like random calculations and random hack and slash fighting. A force based saber system does not have these kinds of inherent flaws. The most difficult part of implementing it would be balancing all of it. Sabers vs. guns vs. force powers would all have to be accounted for because they would all be tied together. But this is also what would make a force based system so dynamic. If enough care and attention was devoted to balance the force-based system could be totally awesome. And balance issues can always be addressed.

Well that's my idea. I think it could work out very nicely in Jedi Academy.

Orangina_Rouge
04-16-2003, 03:17 PM
Ho yeah ....... Force consuming saber combat
So that when u re using the saber now u won t only have the disadvantage of having a melee weapon, but u ll also deplete your precious force meter

I can t wait to spam saber slashes on you and then to toy with ya with my full force meter powered powers :rolleyes:
Make it so and u ll see no one use saber in full force games and full weapons games........ Not that it would change a lot from now, but it would be even worse

By the way, the more i see some suggestions: the more they tend to try to do poorly what an excellent mod did perfectly ( block impossible from behind, reward for blockin full front arc, etc.... )
If i say to you the mod s name is Promod ...... does it surprises u ?? :cool:

Noxrepere
04-16-2003, 03:24 PM
My concern with a 'block meter' of any kind is that it would slow single player down waiting for it to recharge, and if it recharges quickly then why would we need it at all. It wouldn't come into play against a single enemy, but once you’re in a room with many you would be in serious trouble without any defense.

In multiplayer, if their is a block meter I would think that many people then would just wildly attack their opponent with their gun or saber knowing they will lower their defense shortly and leave them helpless.

In this respect lightsaber battles would become even more of a button mashing contest then they can be now. Currently in JKII if some holds down on the attack button and moves towards a saber wielding opponent it doesn't necessarily get them anywhere because the saber wielder just has to continue to block and wait for an opening to either leave or attack their attacker.

It seems like with a limited block of any kind, players would just relentlessly attack because they know they can diminish their opponent’s defenses with a constant string of attacks, with either guns or another saber.

Currently, Jedi are already defenseless against many weapons in the game such as the rocket launcher, the repeaters secondary fire, thermal detonators, etc... ( other than Force Push which is hard to time against multiple continuous attacks.) Giving a Jedi a limited block meter would render them even more defenseless. This would force Jedi players to run away more often.

Making successful blocks deplete the Force meter would just make everyone want to avoid using any force powers at all. If this were the case then they would serve little purpose for being in the game. Very few people would want to leave themselves defenseless and open to attack so they would be more averted to ever using any force powers at all, or if they did use a force power they would be forced to hide until their force meter replenishes.

As far as making the game more fun to play I don't see how a block meter could possibly help at all. It would just bog the game play down with something else to worry about rather than just being able to concentrate on the rest of the game.

I do think the number of successful block backs of laser fire should be reduced. Right now in single player at level three defense most, if not all, lasers get reflected back to the shooter. Reducing it to 1 out of 10 for level 1 defense, 1 out of 7 for level 2, and 1 out of 4 for level 3 would still encourage the player to take offensive position. Right now sometimes the player can run towards an opponent and they will be dead by the time they get to the enemy because of the high level of successful block backs.

Prime
04-17-2003, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by Orangina_Rouge
Considering that a lot of people NEVER tried it, u can t judge if people were fans or not .... and looking at the number of servers of JO now, i can tell you that not a lot of people are still fan or playing normal JO....... all is left is people juste looking to have a boring jedi saber fight, the competitive players scene left for more interesting games :rolleyes:

Now did u actually played more than a few minutes to come up with your complaint about promod system ???
Cause looking at what you say it doesn t sound you really bothered to understand the system
Moving around does not penalize you
If i see someone standing around, then the poor guy is DEAD cause i will outmaneuver him very quickly and have a bonus to attack sin i m moving around forward Fair enough. When promod first came out, I read the description and the various threads going on at the time and decided that it wasn't something that interested me. IMO, I sounded like it was too complicated a system. Other's opinions may vary. I was perfectly happy with regular JO and wanted to stick with it.

As for the number of servers, I felt that since there was a lot of talk and advertising on these boards and elsewhere that there must have been plenty of people that have tried it. For whatever reason, it obviously hasn't caught on. To my knowledge, there are only two or three public servers that are using it. Although there are definitely fewer servers in general these days, that is still a very small percentage.

I'm not trying to say that Promod is good or bad. It isn't for me. Others may enjoy it.

gedassan
06-18-2003, 01:08 PM
How does the saber defense work right now? Can you guys tell me or point me to the right thread? I am no coder, so I am just trying to get the basic idea.

As I understand from playing JK2: JO v. 1.0 vs bots (no force, saber only):
a) one has to face the opponent and stand still to have a maximum blocking chance against a saber strike
b) there is a random chance to block a strike if your saber accidentally gets in the way of an opponents strike, but then your saber gets thrown out of "ready" position
c) the shield for auto defense is ~ 120 degrees of a sphere in front of a jedi
d) "b" is possible thanks to collision detection of the saber collision boxes

Would be nice to know if the game really acts like that or I am just imagining things:)

Matariel
06-19-2003, 05:36 PM
Wow, this thread is still alive? hmmm...

Some of you guys posted some really essay length posts back there, i was too lazy to read them...too long really :)

But just one small thing- while i'd love manual blocking, overcomplicating it will just make people hate it. So thinks like your force meter going down for each successful block is just silly (doesnt look like obi-wan made much effort blocking a sabre in ANY of the movies, and ive fought with swords before, and i dont have the force...its a pretty simple skill).

One other thing, ping wont have much of an effect on the blocking system (that i'll implement anyway) because each saber move takes about half a second to complete anyway, if ping is 300, you'll have plenty of time :) But with prediction and stuff like that, it wont make it any different from the other moves in the game.

kusanagi
06-20-2003, 02:49 AM
not sure if sum 1 suggest this already since i didnt read all da post but i fink instead of a manual blocking, the secondary fire should be a manual parry, blocking can be left as it is, the only thing that needs to improve on blocking is adding more animation and a much better collison detection for saber combat.

the reason while manual blocking works in other sword fighting game (soul calibur comes into mind) is becoz of the high/mid/low attack system, and i doubt lucusart would implement sumfing this complicated....

in a manual parry, the attacker's saber would be pushed back, leaving the attacker defenseless for a monment, and giving the chance for the defender to fight back. the parry cannot be hold, so that after the parrying animation the defender is left defensely as a penalty. this would mean only a well timed parry would be rewarded.

also once parried, the attacker's movement during the staggering animation should be slow serverly or even stopped, thus avoiding the jousting issue of the game.

and off the topic here, can sum 1 point out what's so good about promod?? its trying to implement a FPS system into a sabercombat, and the increasing defense/offense based on movement just encourages even more jousting.....

praenuntius
06-20-2003, 04:00 AM
I think we could have both at the same time.

How about in a training room, Kyle tells you about blocking which is manual at this time. And you have to practise with one of those sphere drone laser thingies like all the kids were doing with Yoda in AotC.

The game keeps track of how many successful block you manually employ, and very gradually increases the chance to automatically block enemy fire.

It could be like a levelling system. It takes you 100 blocks to get 10% auto chance, then another 1000 to get to 20%, or something like that. Obviously the numbers would have to be tweaked so that most people might finish the game with 60%. And the truly hardcore players might try to finish the game with less than 20% auto-blocking.

There could even be levels where one of the sub-objectives is to practise blocking, or to maybe get through it without blocking at all.

It could be like Bond where if you reach a certain threshold for not blocking, you unlock a secret level maybe, or a couple of secret character models.

Matariel
06-20-2003, 08:49 AM
ya, i hope JA has a real training part, not like the crappy 'trial' in JK2 which is not using powers for fighting in the actual game, just silly little scripted puzzles...
Spent more time, being a padawan and all, just training the lightsabre skills (like blocking sabre attacks or even laser attacks) training with weapons, and even kicks, punches or whatever hand-to-hand moves that Raven are putting in. And finally, training in force moves, in practical situations, not just puzzles- actual fights, or force move counter moves and things like that.
JK2 does have counter moves for EVERY move in the game (force powers and sabre moves, as well as every weapon) and the game should TEACH you what they are! You are a student in the Jedi Academy after all :)