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Smood
04-08-2003, 10:38 PM
Its a simple request, yet fairly complex in the limited Q3 engine I imagine. I really want dynamic moving clothing. They just add so much immersion to the game! To be able to jump in a jedi robe down and have it flutter about is something very subtle yet adds so much to the game.

I point out this small point because many of the other bigger changes I have already wrote about. Those changes are being disputed everywhere so I will leave it at this.

Prime
04-09-2003, 12:08 PM
It certainly would be nice to have, but I don't know what limitations there are with the engine that might limit this. It sure would look great though :)

Taos
04-09-2003, 12:15 PM
I couldn't agree more......I'd like to the jedi robes flutter about in the wind and when you are jumping etc. I'm just not so sure the Q3 can handle such a task.

HertogJan
04-09-2003, 12:27 PM
Yeah, I remember the maker of the Darth Vader model saying he couldn't let the cloak move when in motion... Too bad!

But it would be nice to have, yeah.. :D

Prime
04-09-2003, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by HertogJan
Yeah, I remember the maker of the Darth Vader model saying he couldn't let the cloak move when in motion... Too bad! IIRC, I think that had more to do with the animations that were available, and not an inherent liability of the engine. Raven may have the tools where he did not. I could be wrong though...

The_One
04-09-2003, 02:51 PM
I'm not a modder (well actually I am, but not this kind of modder), but I can tell you now that the Quake 3 engine could never pull that off. Almost certain.

There are some quite serious physics issues with the Q3 engine - well, it was great for the time but by today's standards there are things it simply can't do - like enemies falling down steps etc.. The moving clothes is another such feature.

I maybe wrong, but I really don't think it's possible.

AlzWisHum
04-09-2003, 03:18 PM
A nice feature to have indeed. Hair also should behave the same way.

Maybe in JK4...

Smood
04-09-2003, 04:39 PM
You cannot compare a modder to a developer! ROFLOL.

You must remember that they have access to the Q3 Engine, and the ability to change anything. Sure the quake 3 engine may not be able to handle it, but they can certainly modify the engine and add subroutines to support this feature.

It is simply a matter of whether they feel investing time and money to do so would be prudent. Considering they often over look these types of intricacies as being unimportant (much like the saber system :) ).

The bottom line is that it is possible if they are willing to put the time in modifying the engine to support it. To say this is a great task RELATIVELY is ludicrious considering the heavy graphics modifications they have done from the base quake 3 engine.

boinga1
04-09-2003, 05:58 PM
if they REALLY wanted to, they could create new animations specifically for cloaked models, but....then I don't know how they could run different sets of anims for player chars....oh well, we don't even know if we'll have jedi robes (jedi tunics yes, but we DON't know about jedi cloaks).

t3rr0r
04-09-2003, 06:08 PM
Originally posted by boinga1
if they REALLY wanted to, they could create new animations specifically for cloaked models, but....then I don't know how they could run different sets of anims for player chars....oh well, we don't even know if we'll have jedi robes (jedi tunics yes, but we DON't know about jedi cloaks).
if raven just added more bones to the skeleton (ie. for long hair, capes, jackets, etc.) they could greatly improve the visual experience.

Smood
04-09-2003, 08:10 PM
They would probablly still have to do some engine work to get the bones to act like a cape flowing due to air current, and movement.

t3rr0r
04-09-2003, 08:19 PM
Originally posted by Smood
They would probablly still have to do some engine work to get the bones to act like a cape flowing due to air current, and movement.
decent simulations of clothing physics has been done in quake 3 animating before. also, they've been better than capes that follow the movement of your body/legs.

Smood
04-09-2003, 11:35 PM
Really? My god imagine how @#$#@#% amazing it would be if you could be a dark JEDI WITH A CAPE!!!

I WOULD DIE RIGHT there.

MuRaSaMuNe
04-09-2003, 11:45 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if they could pull it off...
It would be a very pleasing touch if they can though. :cool:

AlzWisHum
04-10-2003, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by t3rr0r
decent simulations of clothing physics has been done in quake 3 animating before. also, they've been better than capes that follow the movement of your body/legs.

I agree! They could also create "wind" and "rain" conditions. I am imagining Bespin and Kamino right now.... ;)

Smood
04-14-2003, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by AlzWisHum
I agree! They could also create "wind" and "rain" conditions. I am imagining Bespin and Kamino right now.... ;)

sweet

Blademaster_109
04-14-2003, 06:50 PM
yeah that stuff would be kool.

StormHammer
04-14-2003, 08:03 PM
While it would be great to see properly moving cloth, I imagine it's probably quite hard to do and get right. If they're stuck to tight deadlines again, I can't see them allocating the resources to this. Nevertheless, it would be cool to see.

t3rr0r
04-14-2003, 09:02 PM
Originally posted by StormHammer
While it would be great to see properly moving cloth, I imagine it's probably quite hard to do and get right. If they're stuck to tight deadlines again, I can't see them allocating the resources to this. Nevertheless, it would be cool to see.
well, what i was talking about would just require additional bones... we can only hope.

Blademaster_109
04-14-2003, 09:21 PM
it be great if ur driving a veichle and ur clothe would like have ripples in it.

coupes.
04-14-2003, 09:50 PM
I'd love to see that! but don't expect it, it's only eye candy it doesn't add to the gameplay, so they won't concentrate on that...
plus if you don't expect it and they pull it off then it'll be a nice surprise but if you expect it and the y don't put it in, then you'll be dissapointed.

Smood
04-14-2003, 11:05 PM
My god this is quake 3, and it will be difficult to do. However, MAX PAYNE did it! AND that game had the worst graphics ever, it is far inferior to the quake 3 engine, and it had clothing tesselations on max's jacket.

If max can do it anyone can.



But as many have mentioned, its not a matter of if it can be done, is will they pay money to get it done. Obviously the answer is no, but I was just trying to get some consensus.

GhostLotus
04-15-2003, 07:21 AM
Well like someone else said moving clothing has nothing to do with engines, you know karma isnt a part of the warfare engine they added it later on, SOFII had damage skins, quake III didnt.
So offcourse it is possible and it isnt harder to pull of with the quake engine then the doom III or warfare engine, hell its probably even easier.

Jolts
04-15-2003, 08:15 AM
they used bones to animate the jacket on max payne. I'm sure if the outfits for the jedi have flaps or anything like that they will bone it, and animate it....little principal of animation called secondary motion.

If your talking about having some true form of everytime the character moves the cloth will always move differently, then your getting into dynamics like dynamic soft bodies and thats something really system demanding. You could get away with it for 1 character, add 10 and your system is down sucking floor scum. Splinter Cell pulled soft bodies on curtains ingame, but thats about it.

Matariel
04-19-2003, 02:57 AM
if u guys are talking about simulated cloth movement, it is possible in q3 engine, or any engine for that matter(just requires coding it in), but it'll take up waaay too much cpu time for the detail u guys are talkin about.
Example: Ever played Hitman 1 or 2? theres some really good physics simulation in there, particularly the ragdoll bodies, but theres also some really basic cloth sims. Walk thru a hanging cloth thing (like outside the hongkong leehong place in hitman1, or in the confessional in hitman2) While the cloth is simulated in-game, theres only about 100 triangles to simulate, and you can see the edges of the polys.
Using simulation for JA clothing will take up much much more cpu time because the polys will be much higher, unless you can settle for really simple clothes.
Then theres the issue of collision detection, its not foolproof. Going back to hitman, when u run thru the simulated cloth, it'll cut into you sometimes, or look really stupid. Apply this to clothing on your character, and it'll be really really hard to do. As far as i know, hitman uses a basic 'bounding box' method of collision detection, to speed things up. Clothes on a model just cant be done like this, it has to be per-poly hit detection.
Now for the maths side: Think about this, clothes of about 700polys, on the model that is about 3000polys. If the game has to check to see if any of the 700 cloth polys and the 3000 model polys are touching or intersecting in EVERY frame, thats a lot of calculations.
About 6-months ago i played around with cloth sims in 3d studio for a short animation i did, and i had 5 cloth objects of about 1000polys each in a simulation. For a 6 second animation, it took 46 minutes to calculate.

Just putting things into perspective :)

PS. What are you talking about? Max payne graphics suck compared to q3? are you mad!?!? :) That game rocked, graphics were excellent. But the jacket was preanimated, not simulated, sorry.
And a little correction for everyone, Tesselation is the subdivision of a surface to increase the detail(polys) to provide better quality. I think you guys are talking about simulation.

SithLord13
04-19-2003, 09:27 AM
would make moves more stylish :)

StormHammer
04-19-2003, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by Matariel
PS. What are you talking about? Max payne graphics suck compared to q3? are you mad!?!? :) That game rocked, graphics were excellent. But the jacket was preanimated, not simulated, sorry.

Even that would do me. :) Some kind of movement would be better than nothing, and if it means cutting down on the overheads in terms of framerate, I'm all for it.

Smood
04-19-2003, 01:10 PM
Exactly, that would be good enough. Some type of clothing movement. I'am thinking of when dooku was on that one hover bike and his cape was flowing, that is what I'am looking for. You could have 3 animation sets. One for basic movment, another for a mild breeze, and a final one for strong wind.

BTW: Max payne graphics were terrible.

Emon
04-19-2003, 05:45 PM
What the engine can handle isn't an issue. If they wanted to implement that, they would make the engine handle it.

If you're going to bother with free flowing clothes, then they might as well take another year in development to recreate the physics engine.

Smood
04-19-2003, 06:43 PM
Originally posted by Emon
If you're going to bother with free flowing clothes, then they might as well take another year in development to recreate the physics engine.

Did you bother to read this thread. I don't believe entire sets of physics methods will be required. Bone skeletons and existing physics could accomplish what is needed.

Matariel
04-20-2003, 11:43 AM
basically simulated clothing physics are out- its not really viable
but animating the cloth manually is definitely a possibility. Raven may use mo-cap clothing on top of their existing skeleton, takes less effort to manually key-frame the whole thing...
But thats if the characters in JA will have long coats or capes or whatever- i havent seen screenshots with clothing like this yet, only shirts/pants etc etc...
Jedi should have those wicked capes though :)

My only hope is that if Raven dont put in animated clothing (just the long flowing robes and such), they leave the animation format open for people to do it themselves.
A friend of mine thinks every game should be 'open-source', but i tell him how unrealistic that is, but i think developers that make games should make them as 'moddible' as possible, short of releasing the engine source-code or anything like that.

PS. Was the USA version of Max Payne different from the 'rest of world' version? It has excellent graphics, waay better than quake3. The particle engine was very very cool, jk2 particles suck (if you can get the map entity working :/) Textures nice and sharp, the 'bullet-time' feature made the game fun, the explosions, the fire effects...Whats not to like? :)
And seriously, if it were any game to have simulated clothing, Max Payne engine could do it, the physics engine they've got in there now is great too.
PPS. I also love the 'graphic novel' story device :) JK2 story and SP suck suck suck compared to Max Payne...now only if max could get a lightsaber....

StormHammer
04-20-2003, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by Matariel
Raven may use mo-cap clothing on top of their existing skeleton, takes less effort to manually key-frame the whole thing...

I certainly hope so. Mo-cap often looks far better than manually animated stuff. A key example is the cut scenes in JO...if they'd been mo-capped the characters would have been a lot better. They obviously used mo-cap for NOLF2's cut scenes, and they were excellent, IMHO. I only wish JA can achieve that kind of quality, but I have serious doubts.

Anyway, mo-capped cloth for standard anims gets my vote. :thumbsup:

PS. Was the USA version of Max Payne different from the 'rest of world' version? It has excellent graphics, waay better than quake3. The particle engine was very very cool, jk2 particles suck (if you can get the map entity working :/) Textures nice and sharp, the 'bullet-time' feature made the game fun, the explosions, the fire effects...Whats not to like? :)
And seriously, if it were any game to have simulated clothing, Max Payne engine could do it, the physics engine they've got in there now is great too.
PPS. I also love the 'graphic novel' story device :) JK2 story and SP suck suck suck compared to Max Payne...now only if max could get a lightsaber....

Max Payne was good, but I didn't enjoy it as much as I'd hoped. The graphics were very good at the highest possible settings (although I had to turn them down due to my system), but as for the rest of the game...it was far too linear and limiting for my tastes, with some poor rat-in-a-maze level design. The graphic novel style cut scenes were good...but were let down by some horrendously cheesy voice acting and dialogue. And the main character's looks in the cut scenes just didn't seem to fit with the voice. I hope they correct a lot of things in Max Payne 2...but I won't hold my breath.

Smood
04-20-2003, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by Matariel
basically simulated clothing physics are out- its not really viable
but animating the cloth manually is definitely a possibility. Raven may use mo-cap clothing on top of their existing skeleton, takes less effort to manually key-frame the whole thing...
But thats if the characters in JA will have long coats or capes or whatever- i havent seen screenshots with clothing like this yet, only shirts/pants etc etc...
Jedi should have those wicked capes though :)

My only hope is that if Raven dont put in animated clothing (just the long flowing robes and such), they leave the animation format open for people to do it themselves.
A friend of mine thinks every game should be 'open-source', but i tell him how unrealistic that is, but i think developers that make games should make them as 'moddible' as possible, short of releasing the engine source-code or anything like that.

PS. Was the USA version of Max Payne different from the 'rest of world' version? It has excellent graphics, waay better than quake3. The particle engine was very very cool, jk2 particles suck (if you can get the map entity working :/) Textures nice and sharp, the 'bullet-time' feature made the game fun, the explosions, the fire effects...Whats not to like? :)
And seriously, if it were any game to have simulated clothing, Max Payne engine could do it, the physics engine they've got in there now is great too.
PPS. I also love the 'graphic novel' story device :) JK2 story and SP suck suck suck compared to Max Payne...now only if max could get a lightsaber....

WTF! Firstly JK2 particles are FAR SUPERIOR to maxpayne's particle crap. Max payne graphics are/were crap.

WHATS NOT TO LIKE?

ANIMATION! Try firing the dual berettas, he does it in such a homosexual manner its not even funny. Granted Max has its good points, but to compare it to JK2 on any level is stupid. The JK2 story is even far superior to maxpaynes valkyr crap.

Jolts
04-20-2003, 05:09 PM
if you think jo has better graphics over max payne your blind. Only thing it has over max payne is 3000 poly models. Max payne had a better shadow, lighting, shader and animation system. If i remember right max payne had some sort of radiosity lighting, what does jo have?

Animation is jo is nothing special, mocap was dirty and the walk cycle animation looks more like it was done by a girl. I don't know about you guys, but my ass doesn't swish that much when I walk.

StormHammer
04-20-2003, 07:28 PM
Originally posted by Jolts
Animation is jo is nothing special, mocap was dirty and the walk cycle animation looks more like it was done by a girl. I don't know about you guys, but my ass doesn't swish that much when I walk.


Hmmm...before this turns into a JO vs Max Payne debate (and I do hope it doesn't *hint hint*), are you trying to tell me there was mo-cap in JO? Because if there was...I didn't recognise it. :confused:

I'd have to agree the walk/run animation in 3rd person looks a bit odd at times. All the more reason to have a robe or something to cover it up. Having said that...if a robe was quite long, it might be a bit dull seeing the same brown/black mass all the time from a rear view. Perhaps a shorter cloak (almost knee length) would suffice - so you can still see your feet moving. :)

Jolts
04-22-2003, 12:22 AM
what looks odd about the walk cycle is you hold your arms way out like you have 2 midgets tucked under them, and your hips are real swishy. I know they have you holding your arms out more to avoid cliping on the bulky belt, but since they use the same walk for every character it doesn't match up right.

What would help make things more interesting is if you have any sort of gun holster, or saber hanging off your belt, give it some secondary motion and detail things out a little more. Look at games like splinter cell for an example.

taekwondo joe
04-22-2003, 10:58 AM
i say put it in!!! clothes moving would be great, but for some reason i doubt they would do it,too bad, but hey, it would rock if they did

Emon
04-22-2003, 05:54 PM
You'd need more than bones for it to really work well and look good.

Matariel
04-23-2003, 04:52 AM
true, to get good looking flowing clothing it would have to be animated per-poly, or with a hell of a lot of bones...for a simple cape, 4 bones or even more would be needed at least.
Secondary motion in the key with making it look realistic, the little flicks at the end of the fabric as it moves, the effect of inertia etc..
you cant animate that well with keyframe manual animation, mo-cap is really the only answer

the JK2 mo-cap must have originally been done by a female 'actor' and because the skelington is applied to every model, the male models have a girly walk :) its pretty funny watching kyle and luke walk around in the SP cutscenes now that i think about it :)

Ooh and by the way, at the risk of being slapped on the wrist by Stormhammer, JK2 single player storyline was crappy, everybody just step back and take a look at it, it really did suck. Thats not to say SP wasnt fun to play, the saber fights were really well done...its just the narrative before and after them sucked...i guess thats why i hate all of the EU stories, they just seem campy and crap compared to the movies, trying to tack on new baddies and making drama out of totally new characters, who dont have any development so you dont feel sympathy for them (oh no...jan is dead...<sigh>)
Max Payne narrative style, as i said earlier, was excellent, and the storyline was great, full of mystery and suspense. JK2 always showed the baddies giving up their whole evil plans so there was nothing to look forward to when you beat a boss or whatever.
And yeah, i played Max Payne with all settings cranked, as i do with JK2, and there's a marked difference. Play both games on full settings and you'll see :)

JaledDur
04-24-2003, 06:25 AM
Well not just the cape/robe, but I'd like just a little movement in from the tunic and such. I just think it would improve immersion 1000%


Originally posted by Matariel

i guess thats why i hate all of the EU stories, they just seem campy and crap compared to the movies, trying to tack on new baddies and making drama out of totally new characters, who dont have any development so you dont feel sympathy for them

Go read the books by Timothy Zhan, they're the only ones that wowed me. Others are entertaining, but his always left a lasting impression on me.

taekwondo joe
04-24-2003, 11:18 AM
Originally posted by Matariel
(oh no...jan is dead...<sigh>)
well, if you playd the, darkforces, and df 2, jedi knight, you would feel something for her, she is a cool character, but have you just played outcast?? outcast did have a crap story, but jk had really good one, so dont dis jk

Prime
04-24-2003, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by taekwondo joe
so dont dis jk Never dis JK! All who dis JK shalt feel my wrath! :)

Matariel
04-24-2003, 02:36 PM
woah, calm down cowboy!
Im not 'dissin' JK1, just jk2 SP...ive played both and from what i can remember jk1 had a way better story...well, up until my CD went cactus and i couldnt play it again...i really must replace it. :)

And i know jan was in both other games, but there was no development at all, no backstory no inter-character relationships past the 'mission-at-hand'. Go play the Wing Commander series, and im talkin' WC1 WC2 and WC3 and WC4 (cos the last one sucked big time compared to the others) The characters gave all their story to you along the way, you really got a feel for the people you were fighting with. Why Hobbes, the big cat dude, was fighting against his own people, why Paladin is such a good mate of yours, and why your character (in 3 and 4, Chris Blair, AKA Mark Hamill AKA Luke "I'll always be typecasted" Skywalker) loved Angel...by the way, why was Angel Devaraux english in the movie, while in the game she was french? eh, off topic :)
Just an example of a GOOD single player story, from the days where multiplayer was nonexistant so developers could devote more time to the game itself.

Emon
04-24-2003, 02:41 PM
JK's story wasn't that much better than JO's really. JK never, ever explained where any of the villans came from. Whoop! Out of no where come seven dark Jedi and are after the Valley of the Jedi. JO has some more background to do to help you understand exactly what is going on.

HertogJan
04-24-2003, 03:07 PM
Why should JO's should be worse than JK or even the movies?? SW stories aren't about complicated matter, they are about adventures. And JO WAS an adventure :)

I think the story was ok, although I knew right away that Jan was still alive and I hated the purple monkey lizard :) I wanted some charismatic guy like Darth Vader (not him, but someone like him) to be your enemy!

Emon
04-24-2003, 08:36 PM
Yeah, JO lacked in the villan department.

t3rr0r
04-24-2003, 09:34 PM
how did a thread about clothing animations turn into a jedi knight storyline discussion?

Matariel
04-25-2003, 02:25 AM
it found a way... :)

sorry, probably my fault :)

anyways...clothing! there should be clothing on the characters in JA...moving clothing...i think we've run outta things to say

modru2004
04-26-2003, 03:06 AM
speaking of engines. why didn't they move on to a newer engine? this is only game coming out that will probably be one of the good ones that isn't using a new engine. such as the unreal warfare engine. that would have been excellent for the job. while yes the q3 engine can be modified to do things well beyond its original capabilities, the unreal warfare engine would have been a much better canadite. way better graphics too lol. as for the clothes, go play ut2k3 and look at a flag, how sweet it would be to have clothes move even close to that smoothly. ohhhhhhhyeaa...... *drools* lol. ut2k3 runs great on a lot of systems actually. which is kinda suprising. so it would have been a much better engine to use. but this is my opinion. my guess is they used the q3 because they would have alot of the base work done that way. making for faster development. but thats not always a good thing, publisher may have caused them to come to this decision though. one good release doesn't guarantee another. we can only wait, and hope and hope and hope. im thinking jk3 will be sweet but time will tell. im like alot of u i want the game now!! but i drool when i think of the possiblities with another engine. and even if the devs don't include the clothes features im sure some happy modder will. they did it in max payne after all, and that engines how old?

Matariel
04-26-2003, 02:20 PM
#1: Engines cost money to licence
#2: Raven probably still have a licence on the q3 engine to make a couple of more games from it
#3: Making an in-house engine takes a lot of resources (time/money/people)
#4: Unreal engines have sucked (in my opinion) ever since 'Unreal', the mapping method was different but never really got off the ground, but i just hate the way it uses textures (they're horribly mipped in Unreal1 engine games) Unreal2/UT2003 may look all 'pretty', but as for engine licencing that'll cost a bundle and as for modding it, forget about it if its anything like UT

Plus, im hanging out for doom3, thats gunna break my current PC but, meh :)
Carmack kicks the ass of all those thousands of monkeys coding unreal :)

StormHammer
04-26-2003, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by Matariel
it found a way... :)

sorry, probably my fault :)



*slaps Matariel on the wrist for getting the thread off-topic* ;)

All I'll add that's OT is that I thought JK's story was far better realised than JO's...but I still found JO enjoyable, largely for the variety of gameplay.

As far as engine capabilities for doing cloth properly go...well, I can't say I've seen many engines where cloth effects on characters are used very much. Yes, we've all seen flags and banners rippling in the wind in a variety of games - hell, you can even find them in Quake 2. But that's something a bit different to proper cloth simulation on a moving character...as I think Matariel stated earlier the processor overhead would be far too extreme to check every time part of the model touched part of the cloth, etc.

Preanimated seems good enough for me, as long as they spend the time and resources to do it right. If they can't do that, then it's better to leave it out altogether.

And I tend to agree that we've pretty much hit this from every angle so far. Is there anything we've missed in the course of this discussion?

Smood
04-27-2003, 03:36 AM
Originally posted by Matariel

#4: Unreal engines have sucked (in my opinion) ever since 'Unreal', the mapping method was different but never really got off the ground, but i just hate the way it uses textures (they're horribly mipped in Unreal1 engine games) Unreal2/UT2003 may look all 'pretty', but as for engine licencing that'll cost a bundle and as for modding it, forget about it if its anything like UT

Plus, im hanging out for doom3, thats gunna break my current PC but, meh :)
Carmack kicks the ass of all those thousands of monkeys coding unreal :)

Are you retarded? The unreal engine is a strong, versatile and dominant engine in the FPS world. You hated Unreal1? Who cares, we now have ut2003. What do you say about the UW engine? It costs a lot to buy it!? This is why you dont like it? ROFLOL!!!

Its true carmack is the greatest game creator ever, as well as the smartest, but its PRETTY ****ING STUPID to put down the guys at EPIC and DE down, they are strong game developers.

HertogJan
04-27-2003, 06:23 AM
Hmm I must say I never really saw a good UT mod, NEVER!! The walking animations and baaaad textures and levels made those mods really bad. I never really played any Q3 mods, but for as far as I know, the HL mods still are the best :D

Let's hope it changes with UT2003...

Taos
04-27-2003, 06:37 AM
Ok, this thread is done.....