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Heavyarms
04-10-2003, 04:01 PM
They have at least freed a people that needed to be freed. No one can deny it: the parades, the stealing from palaces, the blowing the nuts out of saddam statues, pulling em down...

The support for America in this time is astronomical. I have never seen arabs celebrating with flags before. Nothing better could have happened, besides no one dying. This war was quick, the outcome that was wanted was desired.
They are free at last, free at last, thank God almighty, another people are free at last!

And to those skeptics, learn all the facts, not just what al-jazeera feeds people.

(from a speech of Martin Luther King jr.)

Breton
04-10-2003, 06:04 PM
But the problem is that what you mention is only one side of the case. The other side is based on hate, agression and the feeling of being humiliated. Much of the US media prefers to show the side you mentions. Most Iraqi media prefers to show the other side. Neither of them are entirely truthful.

You have a few hundreds of people celebrating, and the city consists of 10 million population. I think that says enough.

Also: Where the hell are the WoMDs?

Heavyarms
04-10-2003, 06:36 PM
*off topic* remember the canisters that were rigged to explode when opened but contained material?


but anyways, there's only 5 million people in baghdad, and that looked like a lot of people on TV. but anyways, it happened in afghanistan: people cut their beards, women walked around with no headcoverings...

Some people need to look at america from a helping hand, not a burning fist that wants to burn someone's eye out of their head.

Breton
04-10-2003, 06:42 PM
Slightly off-topic, but I just wondered something:

If US simply cares about other countries, then why is it that they have the lowest percentage of the national economy that goes to foreign aid of all western countries?

Just wondering, that's all.

Zygomaticus
04-10-2003, 07:04 PM
Originally posted by Breton
Slightly off-topic, but I just wondered something:

If US simply cares about other countries, then why is it that they have the lowest percentage of the national economy that goes to foreign aid of all western countries?

Just wondering, that's all.

Where did you get that information?

Just wondering, that's all.

Dagobahn Eagle
04-10-2003, 07:41 PM
Uh.. right.

The support for America in this time is astronomical. I have never seen arabs celebrating with flags before.
Flags.. that's just another way of celebrating. The reason why they celebrated that way was probably that they knew the people who freed them celebrated that way.

And to those skeptics, learn all the facts, not just what al-jazeera feeds people.
Oh, so if I don't believe in the war in Iraq, I've watched too much Al-Jazeera :rolleyes:. I find it pretty childish of you to try to make me sound like I'm not worthy of giving an opinion instead of giving counter-arguments, IMO. "Oh, someone disagrees. I'll just call him Iraqi-friendly instead of debating". Seriously, this is a forum for debate:p.

pbguy1211
04-10-2003, 09:36 PM
Originally posted by Breton
Slightly off-topic, but I just wondered something:

If US simply cares about other countries, then why is it that they have the lowest percentage of the national economy that goes to foreign aid of all western countries?

Just wondering, that's all.
i'd like to see this # and it's source.

I think our lower % # still beats most if not all other countries higher % #'s since our economy pretty much embarasses the rest of the world's.

example, 10% of 1,000,000 is higher than 50% of 100,000.
it's a lower % but a higher total amount.

pbguy1211
04-10-2003, 09:40 PM
Originally posted by Breton
But the problem is that what you mention is only one side of the case. The other side is based on hate, agression and the feeling of being humiliated. Much of the US media prefers to show the side you mentions. Most Iraqi media prefers to show the other side. Neither of them are entirely truthful.

You have a few hundreds of people celebrating, and the city consists of 10 million population. I think that says enough.

Also: Where the hell are the WoMDs?

Well, most of the city fled right before the bombing...
Also, it was ony the capital that was liberated so far.
You didn't exactly see all these people running up to defend Saddam and his regime either... call it hate for Saddam more than love of the US.

Dagobahn Eagle
04-10-2003, 10:49 PM
You didn't exactly see all these people running up to defend Saddam and his regime either... call it hate for Saddam more than love of the US
For some reason I didn't expect to see these unarmed people storm at the US tanks :rolleyes:. "The Americans are coming, let's... uh, run them down with our cattle!"

Where the hell are the WoMDs?
Apart from this one small storage facility they found, and the, perhaps, 10 missiles the UN inspectors found and dismantled... good question.

Face it: If Saddam really wanted to invade the Middle East again, he would have used the weapons he was allowed to have. He's got more of those, meaning he could do more damage.

The two reasons why this war happened was hate and fear. Yes, you have all those arguments, but the reason why you acted this way based on those arguments are because you're afraid and hate Saddam.

This no longer has anything to do with [the recent terrorist attack]. Now it's about fear; Your fear of our armed forces; Our fear of your terrorists; [Our leader's] fear of being weak, of making mistakes; both sides' fear of the other guy who built those goddamned bombs in the first place!! -Tom Clancy, The sum of all fears

I agree, though, the USA freed the people of Iraq. Still, I believe a war was "a bit" too drastic.

Heavyarms
04-10-2003, 11:11 PM
still, even if we did, I'd rather free one person than to let a dictator continue his rule and kill another. Sacrifices must be made; it is not my decision to make.

And I just used al-jazeera cuz you seem very negative about everything, kinda like that news network.

Crazy_dog no.3
04-11-2003, 02:59 AM
Originally posted by Heavyarms
*off topic* remember the canisters that were rigged to explode when opened but contained material?


but anyways, there's only 5 million people in baghdad, and that looked like a lot of people on TV. but anyways, it happened in afghanistan: people cut their beards, women walked around with no headcoverings...

Some people need to look at america from a helping hand, not a burning fist that wants to burn someone's eye out of their head.

Well see Afghanistan was somewhat different.

Breton
04-11-2003, 09:41 AM
Originally posted by krkode
Where did you get that information?

Just wondering, that's all.

http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp

Heavyarms
04-11-2003, 03:38 PM
The US has the largest economy (or one of the largest, not sure) The US gives its share, maybe not in percentage, but in actual dollars, it does.

Crazy_dog no.3
04-11-2003, 04:05 PM
I agree with what someone else said before about the US being richer so therefore it's percentage is irrelevant.

Zygomaticus
04-11-2003, 04:08 PM
I agree with what CrazyDog agrees with. That fact basically leads to a higher standard of living in America...

Breton
04-11-2003, 04:23 PM
The Netherlands have about 16 million population. Yet they give nearly a third of what US gives. And what about Scandinavia? They have a total of about 18 million population, yet they give about 40% of the total US foreign aid. And Scandinavia is known for its high standard of living.

Zygomaticus
04-11-2003, 04:56 PM
Okay, Scandinavia and the Nederlands care more about the world than the USA does. So what is that proving?

Heavyarms
04-11-2003, 05:56 PM
make those conversions to dollars.

Dagobahn Eagle
04-11-2003, 06:29 PM
people cut their beards, women walked around with no headcoverings...
That just makes me sad. "Yay, we're liberated, let's throw our religion away because these people say it's wrong". Stupid, saddening, assimilation.

What you need to realise is that many Muslims do not feel oppressed covering their hair more than Americans feel oppressed because they can't tan themselves without bras on.

Heck, even in the USA you see Muslims covering their hair. Why do they still do it when they don't have to, if they hate it so much?

For example, USA's aid, in terms of percentage of their GDP is already lowest of any industrialized nation in the world.
And GDP can't be converted to dollars.

ANYWAY, just that the USA gives less doesn't have to mean they care less. The USA can accomplish more by giving 0.2 percent than Norway can by giving 0.5 percent, simply because they are a country with more money totally.

And my main point: The USA needs to be less biased. Fine, we were shown pics of people celebrating, and maybe the majority is celebrating. BUT why aren't we shown both sides? Why can't the stations broadcast images of dead American soldiers (they could blur out their faces so that they wouldn't be identificable), grieving Iraqi families whose friends have been killed, and so on?

And the way they protect the privacy of all these soldiers so much... why can't they always be that way? Normally, the media of most nations don't care less about peoples' privacy.

Zygomaticus
04-11-2003, 06:47 PM
Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle
Fine, we were shown pics of people celebrating, and maybe the majority is celebrating. BUT why aren't we shown both sides? Why can't the stations broadcast images of dead American soldiers (they could blur out their faces so that they wouldn't be identificable), grieving Iraqi families whose friends have been killed, and so on?

Because people don't like to see that stuff, and the media usually doesn't show what people don't like to see...

pbguy1211
04-12-2003, 02:47 AM
people cut their beards, women walked around with no headcoverings...

Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle
[B]That just makes me sad. "Yay, we're liberated, let's throw our religion away because these people say it's wrong". Stupid, saddening, assimilation.

What you need to realise is that many Muslims do not feel oppressed covering their hair more than Americans feel oppressed because they can't tan themselves without bras on.

Heck, even in the USA you see Muslims covering their hair. Why do they still do it when they don't have to, if they hate it so much?

Well, first of all he said women. The women in Afghanistan were very oppressed... they could barely show their eyes because the men made them cover up. The punishments they faced if not obiding to their obsurd rules severe.
The beards had something to do with their length. I'm not sure if they were mandatory or not. I think it was more of, if you didn't have one you weren't thought highly of by high ranking officials though. There's a lot of symbolism with the face and it's features in the Arabworld. I'm not familiar with all of it, other than the length and something about it being bad to wish a curse upon someone's mustache... not kidding... happened at a UN meeting a few weeks ago!
Who the hell was talking about hair?

Heavyarms
04-12-2003, 07:18 AM
it's also a very strict islamic custom, they kept it so if you didn't you were beaten.

Now, I feel the US has liberated; good. Now, we need some order here, although they should be able to keep it themselves. This is tough; you might feel like the police in Baghdad soon, and everyone hates you, or things will calm down, and they take care of themselves. They have partially started to, anyways.

Heavyarms
04-12-2003, 07:20 AM
and, umm... GDP can be converted... I think it's called the GNP... I could be wrong, though...

Dagobahn Eagle
04-12-2003, 12:00 PM
OT:
Because people don't like to see that stuff, and the media usually doesn't show what people don't like to see...
The media is supposed to be objective, that's the whole idea. Show an equal amount of both sides' opinions. First thing we learned about journalism when we made a newspaper in elementary school (say again, elementary school. See? Basic knowledge): "Never use the words 'I think'".

Otherwise.. well, I don't call that democratic, just Greed>Quality. Again :rolleyes:.

If all channels were objective, people would still watch TV. They'd just watch the news that portrayed the objective news with the best quality. Tell me: Why's that bad?

Oh, and since when did the media, especially people, care about the people anyway?

Zygomaticus
04-12-2003, 04:16 PM
They just want to be the most watched.

The media is supposed to be objective, that's the whole idea.
Don't tell me. Tell them.

darthfergie
04-13-2003, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by Heavyarms
Now, I feel the US has liberated; good. Now, we need some order here, although they should be able to keep it themselves. This is tough; you might feel like the police in Baghdad soon, and everyone hates you, or things will calm down, and they take care of themselves. They have partially started to, anyways.

This whole celebration thing...I'd give it a week or two more before play time is over and the terror strikes start up again in full force. Saddam has plenty of diehards that havn't left the country who are remaining to be pains in the ass. Celebrations will stop when people see the APC sitting on the corner of their street day and night. Then some guys are gonna get ticked and blow the heck out of it one day.

You have to remember...we are second only to Isreal as the most hated country in the Middle East. They arn't going to stand for this government occupying 2 countries in the middle east. It's an outrage for us to have marched in there and taken over two countries within a year's time. Big Stick diplomacy is back with a vengence this year and Bad Nieghbor sintiments are running high.

I don't know how we're going to stabalize the region...I don't even know if we should, but I do know that the puppet regiem that will be set up soon isn't going to be that popular in any part of the world since it will most likely be tring to play both sides and strattle the issues. (not going too far towards the radical rebels and not going too far towards the US = instability)

Oh, and since when did the media, especially people, care about the people anyway?

When the people changed the channel because they were disgusted with the type of reporting being done.

Dagobahn Eagle
04-15-2003, 06:58 PM
Give Palestine a state and everything'll work out. It'd give ME-US relations a big push forward.

Remember, what they hate you for is not founding Israel as a tiny state in Palestine: What they hate you for is not stopping this tiny state from invading and swallowing up Palestine, which is no more acceptable than a war carried out by Indians that wipes out the USA, makes it the United States of Free Native America, and puts every resident of former USA into refugee camps. It's like letting a tame lion into a kindergarden and just sitting back and seeing it devour all the children as you realise it's not tame after all, without saving the kids or anything.

When the people changed the channel because they were disgusted with the type of reporting being done.
I'm thinking of invading peoples' privacy just as much as

And if everyone's so disgusted, that says something about war. It's not like Black Hawk Down, it's like Saving Private Ryan. Most people have a skewed perspective of it.