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View Full Version : Raven, Please Do Your EU Research


Wavey Davey
04-12-2003, 12:03 PM
One of the things that really annoyed me about JO was that it did not follow the canon of the EU, yes they had the Jedi Academy, but some things were wrong, i.e

Jedi Knight was set straight after RotJ
JO +9 Years

Therefore JO is set 9-10 years after RotJ

1) Mon lost her position as Chief of State during the events of Jedi Academy Trilogy, which was SEVEN years after RotJ.

Mon Mothma was still the leader of the New Republic in JO.

2) Lando lost control of cloud city during ESB, he had a number of business ventures after but he did not own cloud city at the time.

They make it quite clear in JO that Lando owns cloud city.

Can't think of any other right now, excpet for the fact that who the hell is kyle katarn he isn't in any of the novels yet he's made out to be more powerful than Luke.

EDIT: Typos

CanadianSurfer
04-12-2003, 12:06 PM
They never said that he was...

SettingShadow
04-12-2003, 12:22 PM
ahem

Who said that they have to follow EU stuff completly?

Lets say I make up a story for SW, lets say in that story 1 year after the destruction of the second death star Luke is killed in an accident... ops, now Raven should of course go after my little story and form their games after it... right? :rolleyes: And yes that IS EU.

The films is the only thing you have to stick to in a Star Wars game.

And Kyle Katarn is the main character of Dark Forces (best game of the series in my opinion), Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight (wich I owned it :|) and Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast..

Wavey Davey
04-12-2003, 12:29 PM
Well i disagree about the films being the only things u have to stick to as i'm a huge EU fan and wouldn't be into star wars half as much if they din't have it.

Besides they've followed most of the other EU stuff, Yavin, Mara Jade, Ysaslmari sp? so why not use other stuff and make it true to the EU.

Rad Blackrose
04-12-2003, 12:29 PM
Also, Lucas regards the EU community as those who just want to cash in on the Star Wars movies, and the stories should be taken with a grain of salt.

So don't go off on a group of people about the EU expecting it to be 100% right, when in fact that it is a story not told by the creator, but by others who only have the license and do not have the eagle's eye over their presence.

Prime
04-12-2003, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by Wavey Davey
One of the things that really annoyed me about JO was that it did not follow the canon of the EU...I'll try not to turn this thread into a flame war. First of all, to a large percentage of Star Wars fans, the EU books are not canon. There are several reasons of this, like all the continutity errors between books written by different authors. But the biggest reason I have heard, and the reason I don't think they are canon, is that they are not written by George Lucas, the creator. He has no input on the stories, and only dictates what topics can't be covered. The books do not reflect George Lucas's view of what happens in the post-ROTJ timeframe.

Originally posted by Wavey Davey
Can't think of any other right now, excpet for the fact that who the hell is kyle katarn he isn't in any of the novels yet he's made out to be more powerful than Luke. First of all, there are graphic novels detailing events involving Kyle, and he is mentioned in the NJO books. He is also listed in the Essential Guide to Characters. He is just as official as any other none movie Star Wars character.

wassup
04-12-2003, 01:18 PM
http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/kylekatarn/eu.html

He's an officially recognized character. though EU.

HertogJan
04-12-2003, 01:40 PM
Who said Mon Mothma was the leader of the new republic in JO? I don't think the great leader will brief Kyle and Jan on missions :rolleyes:


Who said Lando owned Bespin?? C'mon don't take this EU too serious, I never read any SW books and those extra stories aren't really official...

SettingShadow
04-12-2003, 02:07 PM
Well, I see any made up SW story as some sort of EU... maybe unoficial EU.. And I think alot of this EU stuff seems to be big crap... I've never read any EU except for two old comics (wich was total crap) but most of it seems to be bad IMO.

Why they should only stick to the movies and not EU? Well, because EU, is IMO one persons thoughts (just as the movies are Georce Lucas thoughts) of what happens in the SW universe and should therefore not be taken serious.

If theres some book/novell/comic/anything claiming something happened at this or that particular time (like the empire rises again and the new republic falls) I'm almost sure (though, not 100% sure) it would be perfectly acceptable if someone else claimed that something else happened at that exact time (something like ..and they lived happily ever after :p).

JO had some things from other EU (apparently), but also had some other stuff (that yes, apparently argues with other EU).

Wavey Davey
04-12-2003, 03:37 PM
Well i'm glad everyone agrees with me, for a minute there i was worried about posting this message in case i started an EU vs Films debate, lucky that didn't happen ;)

Guess we're all entitled to our opinion it just bugs me a bit, that's all.

Doctor Shaft
04-12-2003, 03:39 PM
Ah yes, the EU. If we REALLY want to get on who's right, who doesn't follow what, just look at the EU itself. Full of continuity errors, not to mention the fact that Luke apparently changes personalities as he goes through the books. And believe me, the changes aren't 'natural', just the result of so many authors writing about him.

Not to mention that in the NJO books, it's practically suggested that the dark side isn't real. Not to mention the fact that the EU basically says that any person can escape the torments of the dark side. Kyp Durron does it (hogwash), Luke Skywalker turns on PURPOSE, and then returns (hogwash), and then some of those NJO characters do it too I think (hogwash). This completely diminishes Darth Vader's character, since he doesn't turn until he's spent the next 30 years destroying the galaxy, beating up his own son, and then watching the Emperor torture him, not to mention the numerous times he just choked someone because they made a small mistake.

The more Raven steers clear of the EU, the better we are for it. As far as I am concerned the EU is more machine now than good story. Twisted and evil. Hehe. Just an opinion. :fett:

boinga1
04-12-2003, 03:59 PM
Dude....do you have any clue just HOW MUCH EU and movies conflict? Don't get me wrong, I love the EU, but IF we use it as canon, then both the geonosians and bevel lemisk (sp) invented the death star, 10 or more years apart. In addition, lightsabers can and can't be turned on in the water. Furthermore, C-3PO was built by both a factory and by Anakin Skywalker. There is NO WAY you can make any story that doesn't somehow conflict with some part of the EU or the movies. It never, btw, says Lando owns Cloud City. In where does it call Mon Mothma "Chief of State"? maybe she was just used to brief them because....who knows why.

Pad
04-12-2003, 04:01 PM
well JO is based on the sw universe but doesnt have to be according to EU you know. EU is merely fan fiction which has been taken very serious be numerious ppl. i really cant see how you can you can look at the movies and EU and suggest they are or should be the same thing.

Silent_Thunder
04-12-2003, 04:43 PM
I've only read a few EU novels... such as the ones written by Timothy Zhan and actually thought they were pretty well done an had a good sense of what fit in Star Wars, and what didn't. I especially liked the Hand of Thrawn books. Still; there were some things I didn't like... and didn't feel fitted in with Star Wars, such as the Ysalmira (sorry, I can't possibly remember how to spell it :)), the jedi cryptonite stuff (turns lightsabers off???), the cloned Jedi C'boath, ect ect. (Seriously though, why would that rock stuff that turns lightsabers off not turn blasters off when fired at it? Both have their lasers as an emitted field of energy, not part of the mechanics itself.)

I also read 3 or 4 of the NJO books. I thought the first one was pretty bad. The other ones I read were decent, one or two of the others were alittle better. But overall it seemed like it lost all sense of Star Wars, and what made it fun. It also seemed to have lost the established set of rules that a Star Wars story follows.

Anyways, my question is; when is Kyle Katarn mentioned in the NJO, and in what context? I always thought he was a game character only, so I'm curious to see what he did in the book. Also, Luke INENTIONALLY goes to the Dark side and comes back like nothing in the NJO? That's pretty stupid if you ask me... :) Can anyone tell me the situation, and why he does it?

Kurgan
04-12-2003, 04:59 PM
As has been pointed out before, Kyle Katarn is a part of the EU continuity, and features in at least three novels (Soldier for the Empire, Rebel Agent, Jedi Knight) plus has a section in the New Essential Guide to Characters (though they make a mistake.. saying he spared Sariss's life... he didn't, at least not on the Light Path of JK, and in the novel, same deal... she's dead).

Kyle may seem powerful, but so are many of the Jedi in the EU. Since DF series are games, they have to have some fun factor, if they were perfectly realistic, he probably wouldn't be a jedi or he'd be a super weak one. Why not let players live their dreams of being a super jedi?

Anyway, Lightsabers should work in water btw... that bugged me. That scene in Episode I was never filmed, and AOTC contradicts it (Obi's saber gets soaked many times, but still works fine).

Doctor Shaft
04-12-2003, 05:04 PM
It wasn't an NJO book. Luke INTENTIONALLY turns in the earlier EU books, I forget which one it was. Dark Empire, whatever. Basically, Palpatine isn't dead (hogwash), because he makes a thousand billion clones of himself. They are all exact copies, but have no spirit until Palpatine uses the Force to transfer himself over to the bodies (hogwash).

Luke decides to experiment with the dark side for some reason, see what it does, how his father suffers from it, but basically he joins the emperor (!!!?!?).

To make a sad story short, Luke comes back, he and Leia defeat Emperor Palpatine, who is now capable of making 'Force Storms' with his hatred. Then, he can use this stuff to destroy whole cities, etc (more hogwash).

I too enjoy it when people make their own continuing stories on Star Wars. I don't mind the idea of it, it's just that the stuff that gets sold in the bookstore has been complete junk. The authors take a simple premise of Star Wars and transform it. I know we should see new stuff in the novels, but they take the 'new' too far for my tastes. Basically, when I see Star Wars films, both trilogy and prequels, I can't even begin to see a semblance of it in the EU.

Thrawn was an excellent character to create, but I felt that Zahn's plot devices were a little weak. We all knew that since Luke Skywalker was the only jedi around, and a particularly talented one given that he trained himself to speed in a time span of only a few years, that he'd be pretty unstoppable in a lot of one on one, or group on one situations. But I also feel Zahn could have come up with something better to give Luke a challenge other than create just a slew of Deux ex machina for Thrawn to use. "Oh no, Luke can't use his force powers because of a squatting lizard!" or "oh no, now Luke's lightsaber is completely inactive... because of a rock!" I'd prefer if they just gave him something to fight, like impossible odds (send a big army after him, or better, a whole troop of bounty hunters), scenarios where he almost has to choose who gets saved and who doesn't. But it's not my story. Oh well.

The EU is fun, I guess, but then there's anal rententive people like myself who can't stand it when a fanfiction or whatever seems to lose the spirit of the original, or takes away from it too much.

Kurgan
04-12-2003, 05:06 PM
When you think about it, it took Kyle many many years to become a powerful Jedi.

In actuality, his power in the first game was due in large part to his proximity to the Jedi spirits in the Valley (his powers greatly diminished after he left and time passed). Note how much less powerful he is in MotS (and again, his power grows as he gets close to the Dark Side power of the Sith temple).

His "true" powerlevel through training is shown in JK2 single player. In fact, he does use the Valley to "restart" his connection to the Force after he's "shut it off" in his mind for so long (for fear of falling to the dark side).

The part about having a force "source" is not without precedent in the EU. Note that Mara Jade was powerful until the Emperor died... he was giving her force energy.

The Clone Emperor gave his "hands" powers in the Dark Empire comics (though those guys were incompetent, heh).

The spirit of Exar Kun gave Kyp Durron powers (and Gantoris before him) of the Dark Side to enhance his low level powers in the Jedi Academy trilogy.

A group of low level Jedi combined their powers to do a great feat in Darksaber as well.

So it fits.

I hope there will be a secret level where you get to play as Kyle in JA.. with his decent power levels. After all, there's no excuse why he won't be powerful this time around, on his own steam.

Anakin1607
04-12-2003, 06:26 PM
Why is this even being discussed?

All star wars games are part of and fit with the EU. There are a dozen small EU tip offs in JKII: JO. Jerec and his merry band and Moff Moc from DF are in the New Esential Guide to Characters. And there's nothing IN the games that contradict any previous EU material.

Grife's sake, give these guys some credit. They actually managed to work Whaladons into the story. :)

Kurgan
04-12-2003, 09:01 PM
Now obviously I'm not one of LucasFilm's crack copyright lawyers or anything like that, but this is how I understand it:

The films (Episodes 1-6) in their "finished form" (ie: special editions, dvd editions, etc) are the highest form of canon, or the "pure canon" of Star Wars.

Right under them are the official screenplays, novelisations, and radio dramas (in that order).

Everything else is considered "official" that is.. stuff that's officially liscensed through LucasFilm or one of its subsidiary companies to bear the right to carry the Star Wars logo and characters.

This constitutes the "EU" (Expanded Universe) which has characters and stories that spin out of Lucas's original works. It includes the other novels, comics, and games.

The official SW games are the lowest form of official in the overall scheme of things. The characters, stories, and concepts (but not actual gameplay for example, or certain game mechanics) are part of Star Wars.

Now the lower official cannot contradict the higher official and the higher official cannot contradict canon.

That's not to say there aren't apparent contradictions between the pure canon (say between the prequels and the original films) but that's about as good as you can get.

Usually the EU has tried to follow the canon, but its been tripped up by the Special Editions and the Prequels. I suppose they're trying to catch up. But so long as LucasFilm lets them, JKA can fall in line with the history just as the others do. So long as it doesn't contradict the films in its story line, it'll fit, somehow.

Though again, there are always exceptions (the RPG counts as a game btw) such as the "Infinities" which "didn't happen" but "could have happened" had the movies turned out differently.

In the official continuity, Kyle did do stuff like he did in the games... maybe not exactly scene for scene, but pretty much. Consult the novels for the official word...

About the only really glaring problem I saw with anyting in the DF series was the Noghri in Mysteries of the Sith...

But you can blame that on the guys who made the Zahn thrawn trilogy based Comic books. The artwork they used (Noghri as big hulking blue gorilla-type monsters) is straight out of those graphic novels (which were interpretations of the EU books).

Other than that, there's a few minor quibbles with the JK2 weapons (the Mark inquisitor doesn't look like a remote, even though it does in JK2; the disruptor has a longer barrel in the game; the Bryar pistol suddenly shoots gold bolts instead of red though it could have been Kyle modified it heavily between MotS and JK2; Trip Mines look just like Laser Traps... for these and other examples see the Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology, which is based on the movies and earlier EU works).

Note also that the appearance of Mara Jade has changed (since she's not in the movies) over the course of the various adventures she's been in.

Lots of contradictions exist in the EU, so one or two things here and there shouldn't be a big issue.

Kurgan
04-12-2003, 09:10 PM
To answer your question.... "fan fiction" (ie: not liscensed through Lucas or his various companies) is NON-Official and NON-Canon... ie: means nothing in the overall continuity.

Even the lowest official video game with the Star Wars logo on it (copyrighted) is higher officially than the best written fan story or fan film I can post on the internet.


So something like "Troops" or "Balance of the Force" wouldn't be official either.

Dragonlancer
04-12-2003, 09:11 PM
Dude, do you own research. Lando got cloud city back, one of the Young Jedi Knights books takes place on cloud city.

Rad Blackrose
04-12-2003, 09:18 PM
The official SW games are the lowest form of official in the overall scheme of things. The characters, stories, and concepts (but not actual gameplay for example, or certain game mechanics) are part of Star Wars.

I want to hammer on this one very carefully, because I believe that some of the games themselves have the ability to trump the EU novels. LucasArts is a company founded for Star Wars games, and guess who has to examine the story line down to the tee? George Lucas.

As to where game scriptwriters and voice actors have to get things right to please "he who's nose we are not worthy to pick" (wait, that is Miyamoto's title... damn), the writers of these novles don't have to please Lucas so much as their editors and publisher.

So basically, games such as JKII are the card that is played against some of the EU contradiction.

Prime
04-13-2003, 01:15 AM
Originally posted by Rad Blackrose
LucasArts is a company founded for Star Wars games, and guess who has to examine the story line down to the tee? George Lucas. Uh, Mr. Lucas has nothing to do with the storylines of games, books, comics, and so on. All he does is specify what the limits are, like who you can't kill, and so on. He does not proofread or edit stories. They are the creation of the authors, not Lucas. Lucasarts is responsible for making sure that stories fit reasonably into the timeline.

Originally posted by Silent_Thunder
Anyways, my question is; when is Kyle Katarn mentioned in the NJO, and in what context? I always thought he was a game character only, so I'm curious to see what he did in the book. Also, Luke INENTIONALLY goes to the Dark side and comes back like nothing in the NJO? That's pretty stupid if you ask me... Can anyone tell me the situation, and why he does it? I'm not sure what book(s) he is mentioned, as I haven't read them, but he is in there. Nothing major I think, just things like, "most people were at the meeting, but Kyle Katarn was not". Just mentioned in passing in a few places.

As for Luke going to the Dark Side, I believe that was in the Dark Empire comic series. This is one of the big issues I have with EU authors. As we all know from the movies, "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny". Vader was the special case, which is why he is the chosen one. In the EU, everyone and their dog gets corrupted by the dark side and they always turn back. Are there any EU characters that don't?.

And as far as Mon Mothma is concerned, her is here bio from the official Jedi Outcast site at Lucasarts:

After the fall of the Empire, Mon Mothma was chosen to serve as the Chief of State for the newly created New Republic government. She served valiantly in the difficult first years of the New Republic, through assassination attempts, uprisings from the Imperial Remnant, and even the rebirth of the Emperor. Later, Mon Mothma stepped down and presented the title of Chief of State to Leia Organa Solo. Mon Mothma still remains heavily involved in government, working closely with New Republic Intelligence to help maintain peace and keep tabs on the movements of the Imperial Remnant. Another side bonus to her work with the NRI is that she continues to interact with her "favorite" agent, Kyle Katarn.

Boba Rhett
04-13-2003, 01:46 AM
"Canon of the EU" ... rofl.

Silent_Thunder
04-13-2003, 01:51 AM
Hmm, I thought I recalled hearing something about a cloned Emporer... But the way you guys make it sound the EU totally nullified everything that happened in RotJ by having Luke go to the darkside... Even having the "cloned Emporer" seduce him... It sounds like someone just wanted to rewrite RotJ to me!

Just out of curiousity, but does Kyle every get any dialouge in any NJO books?

t3rr0r
04-13-2003, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by Dragonlancer
Dude, do you own research. Lando got cloud city back, one of the Young Jedi Knights books takes place on cloud city.
keep in mind, though, that the young jedi knights series takes place 23+ years after the battle of yavin.

Iblis Reborn
04-13-2003, 05:18 PM
back to the original topic comment,
just seeying how long these arguments can go on proves that you cant get everything perfect and that raven did the best they could (and thats good enough for me :D)

Prime
04-13-2003, 07:03 PM
Originally posted by Boba Rhett
"Canon of the EU" ... rofl. Indeed :)

Originally posted by Silent_Thunder
Hmm, I thought I recalled hearing something about a cloned Emporer... But the way you guys make it sound the EU totally nullified everything that happened in RotJ by having Luke go to the darkside... Even having the "cloned Emporer" seduce him... It sounds like someone just wanted to rewrite RotJ to me!
And bring back the Emperor negating Vader's sacrifice...and having many other characters go to the Dark Side and come back, negating what is explained in the movies...and saying that there is no Light or Dark Side, negating what is explained in the movies...and...well, I digress :)

Originally posted by Silent_Thunder
Just out of curiousity, but does Kyle every get any dialouge in any NJO books? I haven't read them, but from what I understand, no he does not. But rest assured, he would be b**ch slapping Jacen, Jaina, Anakin, and all the other NJO Jedi crybabies for all their whining :ball: :)

Originally posted by Iblis Reborn
back to the original topic comment,
just seeying how long these arguments can go on proves that you cant get everything perfect and that raven did the best they could (and thats good enough for me )Frankly, I think that the JO and the Dark Forces series in general has some of the better EU storylines. It seem much more like Star Wars to me. I agree that Raven has done a great job.

nova_wolf
04-13-2003, 07:39 PM
Oh dear....

Okay - who said the...... c word then? :p

And Kyle doesnt say anything, but he was mentioned in the latest NJO book. First time ever outside of the DF series!

Kurgan
04-14-2003, 04:20 AM
Keep in mind the Dark Forces series of BOOKS are considered an official part of the Star Wars EU continuity, so that in addition to the games...



I want to hammer on this one very carefully, because I believe that some of the games themselves have the ability to trump the EU novels. LucasArts is a company founded for Star Wars games, and guess who has to examine the story line down to the tee? George Lucas.

Key word being STORY here, not gameplay fudgings to make it more fun/balanced/interesting. As games the DF series works well, but most of the stuff in it would make a horribly monotonous movie/book. That is why the DF books are different in places and leave out most of the hack-hacking and all that. I agree that I'd rather play JK/2 than read some of the EU novels, but that's another story...

The level of Lucas's intervention with each of the EU stories is unknown, but suffice to say it probably has more to do with money than anything else. Considering the level of contradiction between EU sources and canon sources, etc, it's probably a very minimalistic approach and probably changes over time.

The point being that the prequels have run roughshod over much of the EU. That leaves the EU authors to either keep on as if nothing ever happened and utter some excuse to explain it away, or else to drop what they were doing and rewrite their own history.


As Bob Brown's star wars website points out, a lot of the "brain bugs" (contradictions and assumptions that pop up following narrow interpretations of Star Wars canon) that occur in SW come from the RPG (a game, after all is said and done).

The various teams doing the DF games seem to have a handle on providing a healthy mix of Canon and EU content into a decent gameplay framework (with only a few minor lapses, like the "lightsaber fizzle out in water" thing in JK2).

toms
04-14-2003, 12:19 PM
this may be totally wrong, but i remember hearing somewhere that they basically got a load of authors together and mapped out the very rough outline of the EU right at the start... then george approved it.

From then on all the authors have pretty much just had to fit within this agreed loose framework.

This is why most of it fits together, but there are a few specific instances where it all falls apart.

I have to agree that the plots to DF, JK and MotS are pretty much as good as any in the EU. THey may not be as deep (due to gameplay and technological restraints) but they "feel" a lot more starwars than most of the EU novels that I have read. Same goes for Tie-fighter.

90% of the EU novels were terrible... always inventing new superweapons and new force baddies/powers. And don't get me started on that whole Vong "super alien species invades" plotline that was ripped from Independance day and every othe scifi film ever.

THe 5 Zahn books were about the only ones that felt "star wars", and thrawn is possibly the best EU character ever. I thought the Ysalimari and the cortosis seemed to work quite well, (how can you create feedback in a blaster when the blast has left the barrel???)(i always assumed it was some form of cortosis alloy they used in Mandalorian armour... but i think they have changed that as well). The only problem i had was that I felt sorry for thrawn, he had all these amazing plans, and then by absolute cooincidence every time one was about to happen it would be thwarted by a 2,000,000 to one fluke appearance of Luke or Han or Lando in exactly the right place at the right time. :mad:

PS/ don't get too hung up on EU continuity... i always liked the way they put mara jade in MotS, but loads of picky fanboys kept complaining it didn't quite fit the timeline... which is probably why they ignored it in JK2.

Prime
04-14-2003, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by toms
I have to agree that the plots to DF, JK and MotS are pretty much as good as any in the EU. THey may not be as deep (due to gameplay and technological restraints) but they "feel" a lot more starwars than most of the EU novels that I have read. Same goes for Tie-fighter.Ah, Tie Fighter! An excellent game to be sure, and a great story. Loved the Inner Circle. Now that was a game that felt like Star Wars.

Originally posted by toms
90% of the EU novels were terrible... always inventing new superweapons and new force baddies/powers. And don't get me started on that whole Vong "super alien species invades" plotline that was ripped from Independance day and every othe scifi film ever. Vong indeed. That is what has kept me from reading the NJO. The good thing about the games like the JK series and Tie Fighter is that they don't try to alter or add things to the Star Wars myth. They work within it. Dark Forces didn't try to change the story of how the Rebels got the Death Star plans, but simple give more detail. In Tie Fighter, the Inner Circle isn't mentioned in the movies, but it certain is possible that is was there. Most of the EU novels seem to try and alter things that we know from the movies.

Originally posted by toms
PS/ don't get too hung up on EU continuity... i always liked the way they put mara jade in MotS, but loads of picky fanboys kept complaining it didn't quite fit the timeline... which is probably why they ignored it in JK2. I don't get too hung up on continuity, mainly because I don't have an indepth knowledge of it. And since neither the games nor the books come from the brain of Lucas, whoes to say which storyline false?

Kurgan
04-14-2003, 09:31 PM
PS/ don't get too hung up on EU continuity... i always liked the way they put mara jade in MotS, but loads of picky fanboys kept complaining it didn't quite fit the timeline... which is probably why they ignored it in JK2.

They didn't "ignore" it in JK2. I remember this sort of thing happened when MotS came out, people started speculating that Jan died because she wasn't in it, etc.

The whole thing with Kyle giving up the Force and hanging up his saber, for fear of the Dark Side doesn't mean a whole lot if you just go straight from JK to JK2. MotS tells WHY he's so afraid of falling.

Also notice how it says he "goes back" to be with Jan, as if they were apart for awhile (and in MotS, they are). So MotS actually fits perfectly, unless for some reason you think the other EU stuff contradicts it.

I don't think any conscious decision was made on the part of the JK2 developers to "ignore" MotS at all.

About the only conflicting point within the games is the fact that he gave a blue lightsaber to Luke. But apparently they did that under pressure from LucasFilm (main characters in single player having to follow the "Good guys have blue/green sabers/bad guys have red" rule from the movies), not because it had any significance in the storyline (and an excuse to give you another saber color you hadn't had before). Notice how they also made your saber "short out" in water (a deleted screenplay scene from TPM, but contradicted by AOTC, and other stuff in the EU like Splinter of the Mind's Eye and JK/MotS themselves) in JK2. That would make absolutely no sense in the context of the other games, so I'm assuming they did it because of Lucasfilm or an implied need to adhere more strictly to the films, as a company using a liscensed property.

Anakin1607
04-14-2003, 10:43 PM
"Uh, Mr. Lucas has nothing to do with the storylines of games, books, comics, and so on."

Ah of course! That would explain his role in Dark Empire, Knights of the Old Republic, the Clone War cartoon, Bounty Hunter, and approving the New Jedi Order for release!

Yup, you sure are right.

:rolleyes:

JaledDur
04-15-2003, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by Wavey Davey

Besides they've followed most of the other EU stuff, Yavin, Mara Jade, Ysaslmari sp? so why not use other stuff and make it true to the EU.


It was convenient for them. Just because they happen to use those characters/objects in the game doesn't mean they automatically take on the baggage of the convoluted EU (which often contradicts itself). I enjoy the EU books and such as much as the next guy, but we don't have to be totally fanatical about it. The movies are cannon, thats it. No one has to follow what has been done in the EU -- if they do its out of courtesy. So if Raven decides to do something that doesnt conform to the EU, then they're just not being polite -- it has nothing to do with right or wrong.

Prime
04-15-2003, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by Anakin1607
"Uh, Mr. Lucas has nothing to do with the storylines of games, books, comics, and so on."

Ah of course! That would explain his role in Dark Empire, Knights of the Old Republic, the Clone War cartoon, Bounty Hunter, and approving the New Jedi Order for release!

Yup, you sure are right.

:rolleyes: Okay, I'm talking storylines here. And here is what I was responding too:

Originally posted by Rad Blackrose
LucasArts is a company founded for Star Wars games, and guess who has to examine the story line down to the tee? George Lucas.

Lucas is not involved in coming up with or editing the stories. He only puts limits on what you can touch. He is only concerned with the movies. Lucas Licensing is what is involved with the editing, etc. Not Lucas.

From an interview with Shelly Shapiro on starwars.com about coming up with NJO:

Shapiro, together with the editorial team at Lucas Licensing, helps steer the direction of adult Star Wars fiction told in the hardcover and paperback books set in various eras of Star Wars history...

...Those of us in on the initial planning sessions--representatives of Lucas Licensing, Del Rey, and some authors--had our individual ideas of who should be the sacrificial lamb...

How involved was George Lucas in the details of planning and plotting the various books, and in the choice of writers? How much independence do the writers have . . . and how much do you have as editor?

...For example, as I mentioned earlier, we were told we could not kill off certain characters. We originally intended the enemy to be dark Force-users; we were told they had to be non-Force users. We had a certain plan in mind for one of the characters; we were told to use a different character for this particular plan. That was about the extent of George's involvement -- unless there was more going on behind the scenes than I was aware of. The writers have all been chosen by mutual consent: some of them were suggested by me and approved by the folks at Lucas Licensing. Others were suggested by Lucas Licensing and subsequently approved by me.

We really work as a team. That said, the final say always lies with Lucas Licensing. The writers have a lot of independence in coming up with a story, provided they work in the plot points necessary to keep the overall story arc moving along. I have a lot of independence as editor: Lucas Licensing doesn't even see an outline or a manuscript until the author and I feel pretty confident that it's ready to be looked at for approval. If we disagree, we discuss the issue -- even argue it occasionally -- until we come to some resolution. But in the end, we make whatever changes Lucas Licensing requires. It's their intellectual property (well, it's George's, but it's their job to protect that for him), and they have every right to control its destiny.

Lucas Licensing is responsible for the books, games, etc. and how they fit into SW. Lucas does not get very involved with the non-movie parts of SW.

From an interview with Zachary Sotolongo:

"There are two worlds here," explained Lucas. "There's my world, which is the movies, and there's this other world that has been created, which I say is the parallel universe - the licensing world of the books, games and comic books. They don't intrude on my world, which is a select period of time, they do intrude in between the movies. [b]I don't get too involved in the parallel universe."

Cheers.

The_One
04-15-2003, 03:16 PM
Who cares about the EU? Well, obviously a lot of people - but still, half of the EU seems to contradict the other half - from my understanding anyway.

I only take the Star Wars movies seriously - anything else is merely an after thought. As long as it makes a good game, I'm perfectly happy...

Prime
04-15-2003, 03:52 PM
I don't mind the EU, but I only care about faithfulness to the movies.

Kurgan
04-15-2003, 06:03 PM
I guess I'm mostly concerned with "storyline continuity" when it comes to the games, and the games only need be faithful to the movies in terms of story-characters.

The games make liberal use of the EU, so if they are loosely faithful to the EU literature, that's fine too.

The only real drawback to if it "breaks" with anything in the EU (and not just because of the movies) then EU fanboys denigrate the game and dismiss it, which as a DF series fan kind of irks me, but oh well.... ; )

As long as they tell a good story, and its fun and reasonably balanaced in gameplay, and has some cool tricks, whatever they do is fine by me.

Blademaster_109
04-15-2003, 07:04 PM
what is an eu search

Prime
04-17-2003, 03:44 PM
Originally posted by Kurgan
I guess I'm mostly concerned with "storyline continuity" when it comes to the games, and the games only need be faithful to the movies in terms of story-characters.

The games make liberal use of the EU, so if they are loosely faithful to the EU literature, that's fine too. This is my view as well. Faithfulness to the movies is paramount, and to the EU secondary.

HitMan
04-23-2003, 05:15 PM
While I agree that faithfulness to the movies is most important, imagine how empty the Star Wars universe would be without the EU.

With just a handful of main characters to work from and around, the DF/JK series would require an awful lot more conceptual work, and with all due respect to Raven, computer games' track records show that completely independent-- or almost so, in this hypothesis--storylines are not the industry's forte.

On top of that, some of the EU stuff is actually really good material, especially the work of Zahn and Stackpole.

Basically, my point is: They're using the Jedi Academy, which is completely EU. But Katarn is never, as far as I know, mentioned as being a teacher there, so they're not being completely faithful to what's been writtena bout the Academy.

So far.

Look at it this way, and my post will have done its job.
They're adding to the EU, rather than trying to work around it.

Wavey Davey
04-23-2003, 05:35 PM
If games were considered canon above EU then the following would be true.

Ace Azzameen flew the Millenium Falcon, thus destroying the death star. (XWA)

Anakin took part in pod racing tournaments accross the galaxy as a kid. (SW Racer)

The jedi let Anakin have some time off of his Jedi studies to enter the pod racing again. (SW Racer Revenge)

Everything that happened after Yavin didn't exist as u can make the war turn the way u make it. (Rebellion)

I could go on but i won't.

Emon
04-23-2003, 10:49 PM
Originally posted by Wavey Davey
One of the things that really annoyed me about JO was that it did not follow the canon of the EU, yes they had the Jedi Academy, but some things were wrong, i.e

Jedi Knight was set straight after RotJ
JO +9 Years

Therefore JO is set 9-10 years after RotJ

1) Mon lost her position as Chief of State during the events of Jedi Academy Trilogy, which was SEVEN years after RotJ.

Mon Mothma was still the leader of the New Republic in JO.

2) Lando lost control of cloud city during ESB, he had a number of business ventures after but he did not own cloud city at the time.

They make it quite clear in JO that Lando owns cloud city.

Can't think of any other right now, excpet for the fact that who the hell is kyle katarn he isn't in any of the novels yet he's made out to be more powerful than Luke.

EDIT: Typos

1. No one said she was Chief of State in JO. She just appeared and told them their mission. She could have any position.

2. They do not make it clear that Lando owns Cloud City.

3. Raven did not write the story. You get your facts straight on who does what development in the game before you post this nonsense.

Prime
04-24-2003, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by HitMan
While I agree that faithfulness to the movies is most important, imagine how empty the Star Wars universe would be without the EU.True enough, but we would, no doubt, have a Star Wars universe with a lot fewer continuity errors and inconsistencies. The Prequals have made much of the older EU obselete.

Originally posted by HitMan
On top of that, some of the EU stuff is actually really good material, especially the work of Zahn and Stackpole. The key word there is some. I liked the Zahn trilogy, but a lot of the other stuff I've read I thought was poor. Just opinions though. But because I thought a lot of the EU is sub-par, I don't have much problem with a few tweeks in the JK series. Like I've said before, I feel that the JK series has had a Star Wars feel that is better than much of the EU.

Originally posted by HitMan
Basically, my point is: They're using the Jedi Academy, which is completely EU. But Katarn is never, as far as I know, mentioned as being a teacher there, so they're not being completely faithful to what's been written a bout the Academy.I don't believe that it has been stated that Kyle wasn't a teacher at the Academy at some point. So why is it not feasible that he was? It doesn't contradict anything, does it? This is another thing I like storywise about the JK series. They don't try and alter any from the movies. They use the movies and build from there. Some of the EU outright contradicts what is in the movies. Like the NJO and the no lightside/darkside stuff.

Kurgan
04-24-2003, 01:06 PM
If games were considered canon above EU then the following would be true.

Technically no, because they would still contradict the movies, which are the highest canon.

The EU is not canon, only "official" or "quasi-canon."

I think I know what you were trying to say, and it's funny and I agree, but you were wrong on that one point.

Prime
04-24-2003, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by Kurgan
Technically no, because they would still contradict the movies, which are the highest canon. Followed by the novelizations and radio dramas. The EU isn't really "canon" at all, since it is not from the mind of George Lucas.

As Kurgan said official != canon

Matariel
04-25-2003, 03:04 AM
i agree with prime, Tie Fighter was the best Star Wars game ever, it had a parallel storyline to the movies so there was no story conflict, and it was just really fun to play!

But ive said it before and i'll say it again, EU is not 'Star Wars' in my opinion. Star Wars is anything written by George Lucas and nothing else.
So, while you never see Lando go back to cloud city in 'Jedi', you assume he does, and he still runs it. And some people are including thing in Pod Racer as story elements?!? gimme a break! Those are kiddy games at best, with no story to them whatsoever, you just race around a big track really really fast.

So anyways, the books are not canon, i especially hate the ones that make up crap about the original star wars characters that is completely and obviously wrong (ive not read a whole EU book, but some of the posts here give some good examples) This being said, i never got into the books that introduce other characters, they just dont have the same feel as the movie characters. The movies feature characters that are persistant throughout both trilogys, and you get a feel for them, know what they're like. The EU characters feel like they're a character 'tacked-on' to an already long running sitcom thats loosing ratings or something, you never really like them.
Also the games are not 'canon' per-se, some events conflict (like X-wing and X-wing Alliance, your character destroys both death stars) some do not (Like Rebel Assault 1 + 2, you assist in the correct order of events in RA1, but in RA2 its a parallel storyline)
Im really waiting for Knights of the Old Republic or Galaxies, because they'll conform to the things we know from the movies, not the EU which the JK series will always be stuck to becuase of the new characters it created.

Kurgan
04-25-2003, 10:27 AM
Just a little nitpick on the side from what I said. The terms "quasi-canon" and "official" are just ways of explaining all this, they are not actually official terms themselves (used by LucasFilm or Lucas himself... but by some of his authors and cohorts).

Essentially what you have are GL's stories:

Films
novelisations, screenplays, radio dramas

And the rest of the officially liscensed stuff:
"The EU"

With the games somewhere at the bottom.

Something along those lines anyway, as far as continuity goes. Then of course there are exceptions like the "Infinities" stories that aren't supposed to fit anywhere, but are just "what if" scenarios.

Prime
04-25-2003, 12:51 PM
As I have posted before, Lucas explains the difference between the two:

GL - 2002: "There are two worlds here," explains Lucas. "There's my world, which is the movies, and there's this other world that has been created, which I say is the parallel universe-the licensing world of books, games and comic books. They don't intrude on my world, which is a select period of time, they do intrude in between the movies. [b]I don't get too involved in the parallel universe."

The movie stories (in all its forms: i.e. novelisations, screenplays, radio dramas), are the only things that are really "canon".

posted by Matariel
Tie Fighter was the best Star Wars game ever, it had a parallel storyline to the movies so there was no story conflict, and it was just really fun to play!You do not tell a lie! :) Tie Fighter was awesome, and a perfect example of what I mean. The Inner Circle was a cool original idea, and it did not conflict with the movies.

The Count
04-25-2003, 03:35 PM
Wavey Davey its not Raven who do the storyline its LucasArts! Raven merely create the game! LucasArts tell them what to do!

mace_sundancer
04-26-2003, 08:13 AM
if it weren't for the EU you wouldn't know who plo koon, aayla secura, saessee tiin, ki adi mundi and about fifty bazillion other characters all were so don't diss the EU. read it or don't read it, but don't criticise it for the sake of it. a lot of of the EU novels do hang together fairly well... the x-wing series and I, Jedi are the best novels.

Prime
04-26-2003, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by mace_sundancer
if it weren't for the EU you wouldn't know who plo koon, aayla secura, saessee tiin, ki adi mundi and about fifty bazillion other characters all were so don't diss the EU. I don't know about that. I have read very little of the EU, and none involving the above characters, and I know who they all are.

As for dissing it, I'm entitled to my opinions and you are as well. That is a minor point though, IMO. The real point is that these stories are not a canon part of the Star Wars universe.

Emon
04-26-2003, 02:51 PM
"OMG leik EU SI CANNON LOOOZL"

"OMFG STEFUU NOOB GERGE LOOKIS DIDNT MAKE IT IT NOT CANON N00B!!!!!11"

:rolleyes:

Who ****ing cares? It's Star Wars one way or another. To me, Star Wars is Star Wars, I could ****ing care less what George Lucas or any other person affiliated with LucasFilm says. It has Star Wars on it. It has Star Wars characters and locations. It is Star Wars.

Kurgan
04-26-2003, 03:58 PM
The EU is written and maintained by dozens of different authors and storytellers and designers. It can't be expected to be perfectly internally consistent, much less perfectly consistent with stuff made by Lucas himself, despite the level of creative control he might extert over their projects in a loose sense.

Where some of us prefer to the pure canon over the EU material is that we feel that George Lucas knows his own characters and creations better than these other authors, and as a result of some of the inconsistencies, some of the EU stories and situations are well... "silly" or mediocre, or even poor copy-cat cookie cutter composites from the films or from other science fiction stories.

In addition, due to certain continuity policies, once a "stupid" idea comes to light in the EU, chances are it will continue (what some of us like to call "brain bugs") forever and every in every story, no matter how ludicrous and annoying the incident or character.

George Lucas isn't the kind of guy who never makes mistakes as a storyteller, but considering he made the stuff, I think he knows it better than anyone.

Some parts of the EU are cool, but I don't think JKA can be held to an impossible standard. As long as it gels pretty well with the films, most people will be happy, including Lucas himself.

Don't get me wrong, some things about the EU I like, when it comes to a game idea... I don't want to be limited to only 3-4 saber colors, or be forced to wear brown desert robes, or not be able to meet EU characters already established as existing in the series. On the other hand, I don't want to be beaten up by the "power of luminous beings" or have Yuzang Vong that are invincible kicking my butt, etc. or having to deal with thousands of clones of Emperor Palpatine and Boba Fett and Grand Admiral Thrawn rising from the dead endlessly (if you have to have these guys in the game, just have it set during the time when they were still alive... how hard can that be?).

On the other hand, the gameplay is first and formost. Single player is more heavily story-driven, and that's the only place it will truly matter.

Prime
04-26-2003, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by Emon
"OMG leik EU SI CANNON LOOOZL"

"OMFG STEFUU NOOB GERGE LOOKIS DIDNT MAKE IT IT NOT CANON N00B!!!!!11"

:rolleyes:

Who ****ing cares? It's Star Wars one way or another. To me, Star Wars is Star Wars, I could ****ing care less what George Lucas or any other person affiliated with LucasFilm says. It has Star Wars on it. It has Star Wars characters and locations. It is Star Wars. I know what your saying, and I'm not trying to be say everyone is a noob if the disagree with me. But the initial post in this thread was complaining that Raven's story was all wrong because it didn't follow every last detail in the EU books. And I'm saying that they only need to follow what's in the movies. The JK series storyline is just as legit as EU material as the NJO or whatever. That's the point I'm trying to make about the EU not being canon. Raven is obviously allowed by Lucasarts to make the storyline they want, even if it doesn't completely fit with other parts of the EU. :)

Originally posted by Kurgan
On the other hand, the gameplay is first and formost. Single player is more heavily story-driven, and that's the only place it will truly matter.Ultimately, this is what really matters as far as the games are concerned...

The Count
04-27-2003, 07:04 PM
Most of the EU is crap now like finding Obi-Wans lightsaber, that was lost on the Death Star, which was blown up what the **** was that? Thats utter bull****, they should stop making crappy stories like that.

HitMan
04-27-2003, 07:10 PM
Originally posted by Prime
I don't believe that it has been stated that Kyle wasn't a teacher at the Academy at some point. So why is it not feasible that he was? It doesn't contradict anything, does it?
Sorry this reply took so long:D

What I meant was (and I'm sorry for any confusion I might have caused) that Raven are perfectly within their rights to add to the EU without blatantly changing facts. I didn't mean that it wasn't feasible for Kyle to be a teacher, I just meant that it hadn't been said in any other part of the EU before. I, for one, am glad that Kyle is becoming a more intricate part of the EU.

Again, sorry for any confusion, and as had been pointed out repeatedly, its the gameplay that matters in the end.

The Count
04-28-2003, 07:53 AM
Who ****ing cares if he's not a teacher do you want a new game or not?

HertogJan
04-28-2003, 07:58 AM
C'mon man, chill! Of course he wants the game, but some ppl worry about the storyline being correct, nothing wrong with that :rolleyes:

Kurgan
04-28-2003, 09:33 AM
Anybody who says that Kyle wasn't mentioned in the EU before Jedi Outcast is mistaken....

The Dark Forces books were about him (Soldier for the Empire, Rebel Agent, Jedi Knight) and there were made in time for JK. His adventures in MotS/JK2 were mentioned along with these in the New Essential Guide to Characters (though they get one fact wrong, saying he spared Sariss's life, as mentioned earlier).

Kyle supposedly mentioned in passing in one other EU book. But the point is, he's part of the EU, like it or not. According to the NEGC he IS an instructor for the Academy, and working for the New Republic again.

The EU stuff is overwritten the higher canon (the movies and their direct source materials), where it contradicts them.

Prime
04-28-2003, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by Kurgan

Kyle supposedly mentioned in passing in one other EU book. He's in the NJO at least once, I believe.

Burrie
04-29-2003, 11:44 AM
Kyle hasn't really had an appearance. Although I have yet to read the book, he is apparantly listed as "missing from a meeting" in the Force Herectic : Remnant book.

(on a somewhat different related note, video game characters are mentioned more often in books... Keyan Farlander, the pilot whom you play as in the X-Wing games and its add-ons, has a pretty large role in Destiny's Way)

Prime
04-29-2003, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by Burrie
Kyle hasn't really had an appearance. That is true. However, he is recognized as an offical part of the EU universe, above and beyond just the games.

Burrie
04-29-2003, 01:05 PM
Indeed, Katarn's been one of those fellows who's really been slowly adopted into the existing EU. Mind you, Keyan Farlander(X-Wing), Maarek Steele(TIE Fighter), Brenn Tantor(Force Commander) and Ace Azzameen(Alliance) have been mentioned in various guides, but Katarn has his own entry in the official database, his own books, and a large entry in the New Essential Guide.

Kurgan
04-29-2003, 03:46 PM
He's in the NJO at least once, I believe.

Yes, I couldn't remember which book though... I haven't read the NJO series after all.

Burrie
04-29-2003, 09:58 PM
So far, Kyle has only been mentioned or referenced in the NJO. He has yet to be seen "on screen" in a book. (here's hoping that he'll have a cameo at the very least, prolly in the final all-or-nothing battle)

Matariel
04-30-2003, 07:13 AM
doesnt it say in the starwars.com databank that kyle was an invention of Raven in the EU, for use in it's games? im pretty sure raven invented his character, and the EU writers just incorporated him into their books

But i couldnt care less if kyle was in JA (its not actually a Dark Forces game remember), i didnt really like his character anyway :)

Now mara jade, she was a hero :) ...i dunno, im just a sucker for female hero's

Burrie
04-30-2003, 07:21 AM
doesnt it say in the starwars.com databank that kyle was an invention of Raven in the EU, for use in it's games? im pretty sure raven invented his character, and the EU writers just incorporated him into their books

Although Raven did not create him(they only worked on Kyle Katarn in Jedi Outcast, before that he was a character created by Lucasarts for the Dark Forces and Jedi Knight games), the EU pretty much incorporated him into the books. Like I said, this was a relative surprise, because video games tend to be ignored in the books. Then again, now that Keyan Farlander has received an appearance, Kyle shouldn't be too far behind.

Now mara jade, she was a hero ...i dunno, im just a sucker for female hero's

You know, in the theforce.net literature forums, you could've instigated an entire debate about how Mara had wussified Luke Skywalker, how she is extremely arrogant, the ultimate evil and bla bla bla... but I guess I'd better keep my mouth shut, those "discussions" can get ugly pretty quickly :p

Prime
04-30-2003, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by Matariel
doesnt it say in the starwars.com databank that kyle was an invention of Raven in the EU, for use in it's games? im pretty sure raven invented his character, and the EU writers just incorporated him into their books As has already been stated, it was Lucasarts. However he started, Kyle is now more than just a game character, but part of the Star Wars EU :)

Kurgan
04-30-2003, 07:25 PM
So far, Kyle has only been mentioned or referenced in the NJO. He has yet to be seen "on screen" in a book. (here's hoping that he'll have a cameo at the very least, prolly in the final all-or-nothing battle.

I re-read the press release and other info (straight from LEC's site) and it says that you are trained by Luke Skywalker AND KYLE KATARN. How much he's in the game, is anyone's guess, but he IS in the game!

Now to prove that statement wrong, since it keeps getting repeated:

(hope these Amazon links show up!)

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0399141987/qid=1051737914/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/104-4861040-2596722?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1569711569/qid=1051737947/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-4861040-2596722?v=glance&s=books

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0425170519/qid=1051737984/sr=2-3/ref=sr_2_3/104-4861040-2596722

Kurgan
04-30-2003, 07:27 PM
PS, if you zoom in on the front cover illustration for the first novel, you'll recognize Kyle's "hand" holding the Lightsaber.... that's in the player setup screens from Jedi Knight (the game!)... (where you choose your saber color).

Pretty cool. ; )

Burrie
04-30-2003, 08:06 PM
I re-read the press release and other info (straight from LEC's site) and it says that you are trained by Luke Skywalker AND KYLE KATARN. How much he's in the game, is anyone's guess, but he IS in the game!

Now to prove that statement wrong, since it keeps getting repeated:

Eep, down boy, down! I was only referencing to the New Jedi Order book when I made that statement. I know that he appears in Jedi Academy, but I also know that he has yet to make an appearance in the New Jedi Order saga. He's only been mentioned there, but hasn't had an "on-screen" appearance.

Solbe M'ko
05-06-2003, 03:32 AM
I just checked out this thread and saw THIS!:
Lets say I make up a story for SW, lets say in that story 1 year after the destruction of the second death star Luke is killed in an accident... ops, now Raven should of course go after my little story and form their games after it... right? And yes that IS EU.
That's just mind-numbingly ignorant! if your story was reviewed by guys like M. A. Stackpole and then published, then it would become part of the timeline. Lucasbooks makes specific reference to such "Infinities" and, although it publishes them, they have no effect on future "True" stories. EU is one of the most important part of the SW universe (both pre- and post-movie) and to dismiss it like that is just plain stoopid.

Solbe M'ko
05-06-2003, 03:37 AM
My opinion on the whole topic of game continuity is as follows:
The game MUST follow the timeline. To do otherwise shows a lack of creativity. It's not hard to make up NEW characters for games and I don't think anyone really cares if Luke Skywalker doesn't make a cameo, the individual characters aren't as important as the rest of the SW universe.
-Just my thoughts.

HertogJan
05-06-2003, 05:32 AM
Originally posted by Solbe M'ko
My opinion on the whole topic of game continuity is as follows:
The game MUST follow the timeline. To do otherwise shows a lack of creativity. It's not hard to make up NEW characters for games and I don't think anyone really cares if Luke Skywalker doesn't make a cameo, the individual characters aren't as important as the rest of the SW universe.
-Just my thoughts.


Individual characters ARE important. You want to identify with someone right? Therefore it's great to have Skywalker around, you recognize him from the movies (the only official timeline around)!!

Luc Solar
05-06-2003, 05:35 AM
*points out that 90% of people who think Star Wars is cool have never even heard of EU or the Yuushan Vong[sp?] and are not the least bit concerned about whether or not a game is faithfully following these crappy novels*

Matariel
05-06-2003, 09:18 AM
amen brother!
actually, i just realised a great metaphor for this little discussion, religion! :) bear with me...
Lets just say that the cinema releases of Star Wars are the only canon (and religion is where the term canon came from, by the way), and therefore is the fundimental 'church' of star wars (i told you to bear with me)
then that makes the EU splinter religions with their own ideals and interpretations of the 'bible' (the movies), and they tack on more stuff to add to the 'bible'. Of course we all know that breakaway and splinter religions are the ones that cause the most trouble, so we should just leave them the hell alone.

Pretty trippy eh?
I'm still all for new characters or even EU characters in JA, but to follow the EU timeline or continuity is just silly, let Raven use some artistic licence

Rad Blackrose
05-06-2003, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by Solbe M'ko
I just checked out this thread and saw THIS!:

That's just mind-numbingly ignorant! if your story was reviewed by guys like M. A. Stackpole and then published, then it would become part of the timeline. Lucasbooks makes specific reference to such "Infinities" and, although it publishes them, they have no effect on future "True" stories. EU is one of the most important part of the SW universe (both pre- and post-movie) and to dismiss it like that is just plain stoopid.

EU is important? HAH!

Let's re-kickstart the canon arguement right here!

txa1265
05-06-2003, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by Blademaster_109
what is an eu search

Blademaster - can I respectfully ask that you type in sentences using words? This is a message-based forum, not an IRC chat area.

The original poster was talking about doing EU Research. EU is 'expanded universe' - check out http://www.starwars.com/eu/

"If your experience with Star Wars has been just the movies, you're only getting a fraction of the entire tale. Since the start, the Star Wars saga has been expanded through novels, comics, and games. Here you'll find news on the latest releases, interviews with your favorite authors and artists, and much more. "

That said ... I only care about sketchy accuracy personally. But hat is me ...

Mike

Solbe M'ko
05-06-2003, 12:03 PM
EU is important.
Think about it, half the stuff that Lucas wanted in his movies was likely thrown out long before the movies were made. I think that EU in general should be upheld, not just the novels. For example, Han Solo shouldn't die and Chewbacca shouldn't be alive, etc.

txa1265
05-06-2003, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by Solbe M'ko
EU is important.
Think about it, half the stuff that Lucas wanted in his movies was likely thrown out long before the movies were made. I think that EU in general should be upheld, not just the novels. For example, Han Solo shouldn't die and Chewbacca shouldn't be alive, etc.

Yes it is ... but while it should guide decisions, it shouldn't be the focus of the story.

For instance, you shouldn't make a game in which you play Luke between ANH and TESB in which you repeat JK1 stuff in a Luke vein, and end up as a Jedi Master before you reach Hoth ...

... on the other hand I think they should stay away from a lot of the newer stuff - like the whole NJO. Just leave it alone ...

Mike

Prime
05-06-2003, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by Solbe M'ko
EU is important.
Think about it, half the stuff that Lucas wanted in his movies was likely thrown out long before the movies were made. I think that EU in general should be upheld, not just the novels. For example, Han Solo shouldn't die and Chewbacca shouldn't be alive, etc. I disagree. Lucas definitely left stuff out of the movies (a lot has been put back into the novelizations), but that stuff is not what is captured in the EU novels. The EU has been created by people other than Lucas. Lucas Licensing handles any major continuity problems.

IMO, since Lucas is not involved with the EU, I don't particularly care if other people deviate from it or not. It is nice to have a somewhat consistent timeline, but I don't feel that it is untouchable.

Solbe M'ko
05-06-2003, 03:49 PM
I'm not just talking about the Expanded Universe Novels. I'm talking about everything Star Wars that wasn't in the movies. Consistency is important with these types of franchises. Look at BattleTech: it has lots of games and most of the stories fit into the universe. I think that you could make a game with your own creative ideas and still not have to negate certain parts of the timeline.

Prime
05-06-2003, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by Solbe M'ko
I'm not just talking about the Expanded Universe Novels. I'm talking about everything Star Wars that wasn't in the movies. Consistency is important with these types of franchises. Look at BattleTech: it has lots of games and most of the stories fit into the universe. I think that you could make a game with your own creative ideas and still not have to negate certain parts of the timeline. Good point :)

Archonon
05-06-2003, 08:14 PM
As far as this topic goes I believe that it is all relative. I think people can believe which ever version they want to accept as the "real" one. The only thing that should be taken as completely true are the movies and possibly the novelizations of the movies since they are developed from the complete scripts which were later edited for time, etc. Everything else should be up to the individual to decide and accept as wether or not it actually occured but nothing should be forced into acceptance as what happened either before or after the movie anthology. On that note I believe that unless the game actually deals with the particular storyline developed within the EU (or events related to that storyline) the game should be able to develop whatever story/timeline it desires as long as it doesn't interfere/conflict with what was established in the movies or their novelizations.

Many people feel differently towards the EU. Personally there are things that I really liked such as the Solo children, Mara Jade, Thrawn and Shadows of the Empire (though I hated the fact the novelization of SotE diminished horribly the role of such a kick ass charcater as Dash Rendar) and subsequently there have been things that I absolutely hate in the EU such as the extremely repeated overuse of cloning characters, Luke going to the Dark Side and everything about the NJO. Which I'm not tring to sound as if I'm criticizing those that do like the things I do not, only stating my preference as far as the EU is concerned. As a fanfic writer myself I do recognize the importance of exapnding of the SW universe and more than anything seeing the different takes of those expansions be it by published or fanfic creations.

Basically I follow Lucas' point of view as far as the EU is concerned which he stated is an alternate universe to his. In that spirit I take the EU, other timelines/alternate realities such as Infinities and game stories in this fashion. Not one of them is the real continuation of Lucas' world but an interesting take on what could have happened.

Solbe M'ko
05-06-2003, 09:34 PM
The non-interference thing is paramount for me.
Good comments.

Prime
05-07-2003, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by Solbe M'ko
The non-interference thing is paramount for me.
Good comments. Coming up with a non-conflicting storyline shouldn't be too limiting.

Solbe M'ko
05-07-2003, 08:35 PM
Stemming from that point, an analogy to music:
If someone comes up to me and says: "Play something" it's hard to make it up right there. If someone said: "Play something in so and so key in so and so style, and use this chord pregression, it would be way easier. Creativity works best when it's surrounded by a see-through fence.
Just a thought

ArtifeX
05-08-2003, 05:24 PM
On the topic of movie/EU conflicts, how about the fact that an entire novel in EU was dedicated to describing Luke and Leia's mother as some mysterious witch-cult member? That was the big one for me. I quit reading anything but NJO after that. I figure that NJO's too far in the future for them to stumble across too many whoppers like that.

Burrie
05-08-2003, 05:39 PM
That series that you are referring to is probably the Black Fleet crisis. A rather good series, if you ask me, although I would've liked to see more of the Han/Leia interaction than the Luke interactions.

This series(and the EU because of it) often gets unnecessarily_bashed for the reason that you stated earlier. It's somewhat understandable, seeing as how folks apparantly hate the first book(especially that one particular storyline), and find out that more people hate the book, which often results in the reader not completing the series. That way, they also won't find out that the entire "Luke's mother is a follower of the Fallanassi" is all one big scam, orchestrated by Akanah.

To be honest, I personally would recommend that you try, finish and understand a storyline before you start bashing it.

Prime
05-08-2003, 06:17 PM
Originally posted by Burrie
To be honest, I personally would recommend that you try, finish and understand a storyline before you start bashing it. Or I could read the synopsises and back covers and decide that the NJO sounds completely foolish to me. Some EU I like, such as the Thrawn trilogy, but not the NJO.

I don't really buy the "finish and understand a storyline before you start bashing it" responses I often see from EU (and NJO in particular) supporters. I know that when I see a preview for a Rob Snieder movie, I'm pretty sure I'm not going to like. I am certainly sure enough not to pay the price of admission. For me, the same goes for the NJO (as an EU example). Reading about the series and some of the concepts, my personal opinion is that it is not what I am looking for in a SW series by a long shot. I feel there are many aspects that contradict the movie canon (such as the no Dark Side thing). This stuff turns me off. Knowing this, I see no reason why I should purchase a book or two to see if I really would like it. Maybe I'm missing out, but I'll take my chances based on what I do know. The point is I don't think I should be prevented from saying what I don't like and why, even though I haven't read 10+ books to form that opinion.

That being said, I have no problem with people who support the NJO and EU in general. It's all a matter of taste. They can explain why they like it all they want, as long as I can explain why I don't. :)

Burrie
05-08-2003, 06:36 PM
I can fully understand and see what you mean. I guess that I tend to react a bit too harshly. However, I tend to hear things like "This sucks" and "The NJO sucks, is awful, trite and all that" from fans who have absolutley no idea what they are even talking about. They immediately say that it's awful and goes against George's vision and all that. However, I've met lots of blokes who haven't even picked up a book, let alone read the back cover. In the end, they are merely jumping on the "We-hate-the-EU" bandwagon, which is something I clearly despise. Aye, I have little problem with someone disliking the EU(everyone has his own opinion after all), but if you simple hate it because everyone hates it... well, it just makes you a bit of a follower.

Now Prime, your example I like. You say that you've read the synopis of the NJO and simply said "This doesn't seem to be what I like, I'll go pick up something else". however, unlike some other folks, you don't bash the NJO. You simply didn't read it. That's A-OK with me, but quite frankly, it would be a bit odd if you'd suddenly start badmouthing the NJO, even though you haven't read it. Cheers for that.

Again, my pet peeve is that "hating the EU" became a fad a few years ago, closely following the "hating the TPM movie and JAR JAR" fad. People hate the EU for the sake of hating the it because everyone else hates it. The EU tends to get the blame for something whilst in reality, it shouldn't. For example...

* The earlier mentioned "This EU book says that Luke's mom is a Fallanassi. As explained, it's all a big scam.
* The Force has no Light or Dark side. A rather big misconception, because this is merely the believes of one Jedi. This does NOT mean that she is speaking the truth. Just because one Jedi Master(who seems to have slowly become mad) says that the Force is one and doesn't have a Light or Dark side doesn't necesarilly mean that she is right. Those are her beliefs, whilst most of the Jedi still believe in a Light and a Dark Side. In the end, this lil' sidetrip only sparked several interesting debates about the Force...
* Yoda's race is a whill. Now, I honestly do not understand why EU-bashers tend to blame the EU for this one, but it's pure nonsense. In no book at all has it ever been said that Yoda is a Whill. It's pure fan speculation.

That being said, I have no problem with people who support the NJO and EU in general. It's all a matter of taste. They can explain why they like it all they want, as long as I can explain why I don't.

And that's what I really like. I try to adopt this stance myself. If someone doesn't like the EU, I completely understand. Heck, I can even understand why this wouldn't be one's cup of tea. (plus, there are a few stories which also wasn't to my liking at all... the IG-88 storyline in Tales of Bounty Hunter went too far)

So let's agree on conflicting opinions! :cheers:

Solbe M'ko
05-08-2003, 07:08 PM
I second that motion!
(Starts hitting table with hand and hooting excitedly, then falls out of his chair and into a coma he has yet to recover from):wornout:

Archonon
05-08-2003, 07:10 PM
As I stated before the EU is all a matter of taste and while some things might be appealing to some it won't be to others. I'ts not my intention to bash the EU, each person has their own preference as to what they think is a better story for continuing what was started in the movies as well as the events that lead up to the movies themselves. Even when it comes to the movies themselves there are plenty of prequel bashers and even original trilogy SE bashers, it's just a matter that no one story arc will ever be able to please everyone. I'm certain my or other fan-fics that change the established EU timeline wouldn't be liked by everyone, especially people who have adopted the EU as the official timeline following or preceding the movies.

Now that said, I wouldn't presume to bash the NJO either because that is someone else's hard work and the realization of their dream nor would I say anything against people who like this series. Personally, I can't stand the NJO, as a concept and as the individual set of events and stories that have been develoed within it. I have the NJO encyclopedia webpage where I've read all their currently available fully detailed synopsis of every NJO novel up to Remnant. So I have a fairly good general knowledge of the NJO and it's just not my taste. Again, as a SW fan-fic writer I am very supportive of both the official EU and fan-created writings wether or not I like the stories and encourage them to continue enriching the SW universe.

So my point as far as the original topic was concerned was that the games don't have to follow the EU timeline because the EU itself is an alternate universe to the real one as Lucas said himself. Unless you are making games which are specifically following a EU story arc or an arc related to an existing EU timeline then yes, by all means have the game follow a sense of continuity, otherwise there's pretty much complete freedom to take the post-RotJ timeline wherever they want as long as they don't contradict/interfere with anything in the movies.

Solbe M'ko
05-08-2003, 07:18 PM
I'd like to agree with you that the EU is separate from the movies, but I just can't do it.
There were too many loose ends in the movies that the EU explains (or tries to) like for example (I'm only using the original trilogy for my eg.s, by the way):

-What were the clone wars? Who were the sith?

-What's a corellian?

-What was the republic?

-How come han solo wears imperial boots?

-Why did Jabba hate Solo so much?

I just think that if we left these questions unanswered, it would be a waste of a good opportunity to be creative.

Plus the most important question of all: Then what?

This debate is going to on for some time, methinks. Good thing, too.

Burrie
05-08-2003, 07:30 PM
Archonon, Prime, allow me to say for a moment that you two are amongst the civilized "EU-basher"(and I'd hestitate to even call you folks that) I have yet to talk to... you did your research, it showed you didn't like it, but don't proceed to bash the EUers because of it. Cheers!

Now Archonon, to indeed get back to topic...

So my point as far as the original topic was concerned was that the games don't have to follow the EU timeline or because the EU itself is an alternate universe to the real one as Lucas said himself. Unless you are making games which are specifically following a EU story arc or an arc related to an existing EU timeline then yes, by all means have the game follow a sense of continuity, otherwise there's pretty much complete freedom to take the post-RotJ timeline wherever they want as long as they don't contradict/interfere with anything in the movies.

Ah, the much-vaunted and often-quoted "parallel universe" line from George Lucas... I've read so many debates in which it was brought up that it ain't even funny... although I was preparing a rather lengthy post about that little tidbit, I decided -to keep things a bit civilized- to stray away from discussing that particular quote :D

In any case, to return to the original topic at hand, my personal opinion is that the Jedi Academy game should follow the EU timeline, one way or the other. Now the last time I checked the timeline, Jedi Academy pretty much takes place during a rather quiet period, so pretty much anything can happen. Jedi Outcast managed to keep its story well within the current timeline without damaging the EU much. They can pretty much do anything at this point, and I seriously see no reason why they should hurt the timeline. Dark Forces, Jedi Knight, Mysteries of the Sith and Jedi Outcast showed how you can have a compelling storyline whilst adding it to the timeline without a problem. MotS actually managed to explain what Mara was doing during the entire "Dark Empire" story arc.

Plus, the continuity editors(and the EU fans) can do wonders to explain any error away in the timelines.

The biggest problem so far is they we're creating our very own character with various pathways to choose(this same problem applies to KotOR as well). I am really wondering how the EU folks are going to handle this one. They will prolly take one outcome, create their very own padawan, declare it the official arc whilst all other outcomes will be seen as "infinities" in the official timeline. They pretty much did the same with Jedi Knight.

Archonon
05-08-2003, 07:31 PM
As I mentioned, the fact of wether or not the EU is separate or not from the movies is relative. To you it isn't, to me it is because I follow what Lucas said about the EU.

Despite wether you like them or not the prequels answer at least some of the questions you posted. And that is the absolute true answer because they came from the source. Some questions such as the Jabba thing are explained in the original trilogy itself, if the EU has developed that Jabba has a "hatred" for Han other than because Han dumped the shipment he was smuggling for Jabba as established in Ep.4 then that I don't buy at all, whatever it may be. Remember that as much as we'd like everything answered and in a nice wrapped package that will never be the case of any story.

As for the all important question: Then what? Well then it's up to you to formulate for yourself what happens. As Lucas leaves it, the galaxy enters into a new golden age of peace, Luke will reestablish the Jedi as guardians of the galaxy and the Dark Side was destroyed by Anakin's sacrifice and bringing balance to the Force. That's where the story ends, there is no more.

But as everyone wants there to be more (myself included) form your own conclusion as to what happened. Wether it is the EU or the complete opposite that's the brilliance of SW you can make with it what you want and take from it your own unique interpretation of the story and where it goes.

Oh and thanks for the complement Burrie. I have felt the burn of criticism as an amateur writer myself, not because of anything particulalry wrong with my early work but because of dislike for the content of the storyline. So I am quite sensitve to the personal tastes of writers and readers alike, as I hope everyone is. If you don't like something you can say why but there is no need to say it isn't good just because it wasn't to your taste. :)

Solbe M'ko
05-08-2003, 07:46 PM
Burrie, you're right, but even JO didn't follow exactly, there were a few problems with that game's continuity to the EU storyline (Bespin, etc.)

Archonon, you're right too. You can look at SW just in what you see in the movies and build from there and enjoy it just as much. The only problem with that is when you go to make a computer game series, you really only have 6 games to make, one for each episode.

Very good arguments all 'round, me thinks. :monkey4:

Luc Solar
05-08-2003, 07:53 PM
The point I tried to make a while back is that very few people have ever even heard of EU. I heard about it a year ago on these forums and I've collected the little figures in the 80's and watched every Star Wars movie a gazillion times ffs! Whether or not EU or NJO is great literature is irrelevant.

The point is that people who like the movies are going to buy the game and they buy the game because they get to do and see stuff from the movies.

Try telling George Lucas that he should make a SW-movie but forget about Stormtroopers and use Yuushan Vong instead.

You know what he would say? Here's what:

George Lucas: "Vuushi Heuyong? What's that? Kung fu?"

I'm sure that meeting the Solo twins would be cool to all those 3 people who have a) read and b) liked the book/s in question but you have to face it: To every potential buyer that knows his EU there are a million "casual Star Wars fans" out there who will get JA when it comes out and be really pissed if they don't get to do & see the Canon-stuff.

Ok. Sorry for interrupting and getting slightly off topic. Carry on. :)

Solbe M'ko
05-08-2003, 07:58 PM
No, I totally agree. If you went into the EU, like the inclusion of the solos, EU fans like me could quit bitchin', and EU-haters could eat it, and those who accept but don't like EU could see all their favorite parts from the movies. Everybody wins, except EU-bashers, but they don't count in my book anyway. ;)

Burrie
05-08-2003, 08:13 PM
Actually Solar, that isn't off-topic at all. You present a very good point as to why Raven shouldn't follow the EU. Allow me to respond...

The point I tried to make a while back is that very few people have ever even heard of EU. I heard about it a year ago on these forums and I've collected the little figures in the 80's and watched every Star Wars movie a gazillion times ffs! Whether or not EU or NJO is great literature is irrelevant.

The point is that people who like the movies are going to buy the game and they buy the game because they get to do and see stuff from the movies.

True. However, if people wish to repeat stuff from the movies, they are welcome to do so in the EU territory. I don't quite see what kind of problem this would cause so far if they create a game based off EU material. Jedi Outcast had a few levels set in the Jedi Academy on the Yavin 4 moon, which is a pure EU invention. Yet, it worked excellently, I don't believe there have been any complaints about that... right?

Try telling George Lucas that he should make a SW-movie but forget about Stormtroopers and use Yuushan Vong instead.
You know what he would say? Here's what:
George Lucas: "Vuushi Heuyong? What's that? Kung fu?"

A minor misconception, methinks. George Lucas has to approve wether the storylines of all literature material falls within his vision of what Star Wars is supposed to be, so he would know what the Yuuzhan Vong are. (minor tidbit, the Vong were originally supposed to be the Sith, but this idea was later on scrapped, prolly because the "always two there are" rule was invented around those times)

However, the average SW fan might not have heared of these. This is also amongst the reasons that I agree that the Vong should not be the main baddies in a SW game... yet. What I would like to see somewhere down the line is that a game would include a bonus mission/level in which you can fight against a few Vong.

I'm sure that meeting the Solo twins would be cool to all those 3 people who have a) read and b) liked the book/s in question but you have to face it: To every potential buyer that knows his EU there are a million "casual Star Wars fans" out there who will get JA when it comes out and be really pissed if they don't get to do & see the Canon-stuff.

I really don't see why there would be so much harm if the Solo twins would make an appearance. If they'd run the show, ja, I'd understand why people would peeved. Heck, I m'self wouldn't like it, Luke should run the show. However, if they are referred to as Solo, the average fan would surely understand that they're related to the Solos. To work in the Solo Twins(or any other existing Jedi for that matter) wouldn't be that tough to do.

For example, I was recently replaying X-Wing Alliance, and I marvelled at how well it works with the EU material. They've incorporated various EU characters and situations in there in such a way that for the casual fan, it would be just another character or mission in the vast Star Wars galaxy. Meanwhile, the EU fans would simply smile at the mention of Borsk Fey'la or that they are allowed to participate in the attack on the freighter Surprosa.

KotOR is also shaping up to be an excellent game for both EU fans and casual fans.(please note that I'm referring to their EU tastes, not at their preferred gameplay) The story is set after the "Tales of the Jedi" comics, but Bioware has already made it perfectly clear that you don't need to have read those. There might be a few minor references to it, but it's a whole new story. They have, however, shown that they are not totally ignoring the Tales of the Jedi Story arc by neatly placing various EU references in there. We have master Vodo-Siosk Baas' being mentioned as the creator of the Dantooine academy, the Empress Teta system developing armor, and swords being forged out of Cortosis. Now, for the casual fan, this is simple background material. For the EU fan, it is all a neat tie-in.

I guess that's where I'm hoping to see Jedi Academy lead to... a story which casual fans will enjoy, but also with minor nods to the EU.

Jake
05-08-2003, 08:22 PM
Originally posted by Rad Blackrose
LucasArts is a company founded for Star Wars games.


You deserve a very long horrible painful death.

While you're dying slowly and horribly you should maybe consider doing some research. You might find out that LucasArts was around starting in the late 80's but didn't put out a Star Wars game until the mid 90's.

Solbe M'ko
05-08-2003, 08:36 PM
Oh shush! Lucasfilm will always be remembered for Star Wars, regardless of Indy or even American Grafitti (this might not be Lucasfil, I'm not sure). Star Wars is really George Lucas' main claim, the rest is okay, but SW is the focus. (PS- I'm a huge Monkey Island, Full Throttle, Sam&Max, Tentacle fan too)

Now to be a completely hipocritical nitpicker myself :D :
Yavin 4 was in ANH as a major location of importance. Remember that part where the Death Star is about to fire? That's what they were firing at.

Solbe M'ko
05-08-2003, 08:42 PM
Now then, I havn't played X-Wing alliance, but I'll make a note of it. That it mentions the EU is exactly what I've been pushing for.

The "bonus level Yuuzhan Vong" is a VERY good idea. In the literature (and I havn't read much of it, and none of the early stuff like Vector Prime, so my arguments have been practically BS for most of this discussion) it says that some "outside forces" have been detected, but it never specifically says they're YVs. That would also be a good way to kill off the character you make in JA, if anyone else thinks that's a good idea. The Vong aren't the most original creation, but they are a great part of the story anyway. The fall-apart of the New Republic and discrimination of jedi is one of my favorite parts of the EU.

->Edit

:wstupid: Oops! Shoulda made that a spoiler! Well I hope that anyone who reads this doesn't get mad!

Burrie
05-08-2003, 08:56 PM
Now then, I havn't played X-Wing alliance, but I'll make a note of it. That it mentions the EU is exactly what I've been pushing for.

I certainly recommend it. The events of Shadows of the Empire play a huge part in it. You remember that little scene in which Vader attacks a small Rebel Asteroid base? You get to participate in that battle, and I believe you can even see Vader flying by for a moment. I mentioned the freighter Surprosa earlier on(almost quoted line-by-line from the book, complete with missile fired upon several Y-Wings and Dash trying to shoot it down). Melan Koth(the Bothan from SotE) also makes an appearance. You'll be flying near Kothlis as the Bothans try to escape from raiders. Basically, it's all "just another mission" for the casual fan, whilst it's a nice, special occasions for the EU fans. And in a downright hilarious scene(I nearly fell out of my chair in this mission), you accidently end up in the Imperial Training center in the Carida system.

And there are lots more of these tiny touches... I think I saw the Wild Karrde at one point.

Archonon
05-08-2003, 09:01 PM
Lol, this is specifically how I mean that people's tastes can differ so significantly while still seeing aspects of the same universe.

Frankly, I hope they do not introduce the YV into the JK series or any other game that isn't related to the NJO. If they make a game which chronicles the adventures of the NJO or events related to that then no problem at all, in fact there I might even decide to buy it pending how the game is.

But for me personally, the YV themselves as a race concept, what they represent, and how they are developed and particularly those things you mentioned about the fall of the Republic and the Jedi discriminations are some of the very specific things I don't like about the NJO.

Don't think I'm saying I wouldn't support NJO-themed games for you fans of the series, because I really would. But I would not like to see the existing series go in that direction. Personally, I'd rather continue fighting the Sith over the YV always. Maybe someday we'll both get what we want.

Solbe M'ko
05-08-2003, 09:16 PM
Hell, if that means twice as many SW games, I'm on board!

Prime
05-08-2003, 10:34 PM
Originally posted by Burrie
...closely following the "hating the TPM movie and JAR JAR" fad. People hate the EU for the sake of hating the it because everyone else hates it... Yeah, I never got this. Same with AOTC. Everyone I know really enjoyed them. The only place I've seen people bash it is on the internet. Certainly, there are many flaws, but "regular people" seem to enjoy it for pure entertainment. Not everyone is going to like it, but I suspect that all the bashing you hear is from the vocal minority.

Originally posted by Burrie
...So let's agree on conflicting opinions! :cheers: Indeed :)

Apart from the Vong and so on, many of the concepts of the post-ROTJ EU I like. I am interested in the re-establishment of the Jedi Order and Republic. I am interested in the lives of our heroes after the death of the Emperor. But in the end, the stories didn't take a path that I thought they should and would be interested in.

Solbe M'ko
05-09-2003, 12:19 AM
I notice that alot in the EU. My solution is to just not file it away in my brain like I would some storyline that I really like. I don't like all of the EU by far, but the parts I like, I bring up. The other stuff I acknowledge but don't neccesarily think of when I discuss it.

Vagabond
05-09-2003, 12:34 AM
Jeez, I barely skimmed the surface of many of these posts - all I got to say is the lot of you are all sons of Force Long Post (tm).

To express my opinion, in as few words as possible, I would prefer that Raven stay as close to the currently understood all-encompassing Star Wars cannon as possible. No need to intentionally contradict that which we know and distract people from the storyline.

If it's truly a penny for your thoughts, then there's my two cents, and you can even keep the change (tm) :cool:

Luc Solar
05-09-2003, 05:33 AM
Just to clear things up:

There is no problem with EU-elements (as far as I can see) but *focusing* on something that the average joe does not know about would be foolish.

A good example is taking out stormtroopers, the Sith and "the dark side" altogether and replace them with force-resistant YV who you fight in places and times that have no connection with the movies.

That would not be STAR WARS to many of us, but merely a FPS with a saber. ;)

txa1265
05-09-2003, 11:52 AM
Many interesting points. I've read (and listened to audio books of) numerous EU books, include old republic stuff, near-Trilogy stuff, post trilogy stuff, and some NJO. I'll state my bias up front by saying that I've tried, but don't like the whole Vong thing ... I like a couple of the books, but the whole concept bugs me. Anyway ...

It is amazing how some EU elements have become engrained into near-canon status. Of course Luke established the new Jedi Academy on Yavin 4 wasn't that in .... er, I guess that was EU. I believe that the inclusion of EU characters as side-characters, as many have mentioned, would add to the SW feel.

As for the bashing ... there is something I call 'Star Wars Syndrome' (SWS) that seems to have popped up since TPM ... maybe since the Trilogy SE, but certainly since TPM. In SWS, every new Star Wars element is over-hyper analyzed by Star Wars geeks, but publicly and with a jaded, cynical view. As a result, all that is seen is the flaws and the negative side of things. I like TPM - it is my least favorite, but i like lots of parts of it. And I love AotC - it is actually my favorite of the five (and I was 11 yrs old in line in 1977...). It (SWS) is a destructive habit that eats the community alive, and makes it hard to produce good product ...

Mike

Prime
05-09-2003, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by Vagabond
...Star Wars cannon... Cannon? You mean like the Death Star super laser? :p

Originally posted by Luc Solar
There is no problem with EU-elements (as far as I can see) but *focusing* on something that the average joe does not know about would be foolish.

A good example is taking out stormtroopers, the Sith and "the dark side" altogether and replace them with force-resistant YV who you fight in places and times that have no connection with the movies.

That would not be STAR WARS to many of us, but merely a FPS with a saber. Not only from a marketing/casual fan standpoint, but using the Vong just doesn't work because they are immune or whatever to the Force. People are going to pick up the game and expect to be able to use all these cool Force powers, only to find that they have no effect on the enemies they are supposed to fight.

Boring!

Burrie
05-09-2003, 12:43 PM
ot only from a marketing/casual fan standpoint, but using the Vong just doesn't work because they are immune or whatever to the Force. People are going to pick up the game and expect to be able to use all these cool Force powers, only to find that they have no effect on the enemies they are supposed to fight.
Boring!

Good point actually. This is also a bit of a reason why I'd simply want a Vuuzhan Vong mission to be an extra, a bonus mission if you will, like those extra mission that appeared in Galactic Battlegrounds at the end of each campaign. Still, they'd be one helluva adversary in an X-Wing Alliance-like game...

As for the bashing ... there is something I call 'Star Wars Syndrome' (SWS) that seems to have popped up since TPM ... maybe since the Trilogy SE, but certainly since TPM. In SWS, every new Star Wars element is over-hyper analyzed by Star Wars geeks, but publicly and with a jaded, cynical view. As a result, all that is seen is the flaws and the negative side of things. I like TPM - it is my least favorite, but i like lots of parts of it. And I love AotC - it is actually my favorite of the five (and I was 11 yrs old in line in 1977...). It (SWS) is a destructive habit that eats the community alive, and makes it hard to produce good product ...

Good analysis. In my opinion, some people have forgotten one of the main purposes of cinema movies : Entertainment. They tend to overanalyze some things a bit too far. Mayhaps it might've been better not to show Yoda... but damn, was it entertaining the see the green Jedi fight. Other people detest the battle of Geonosis, because the Jedi shouldn't fight like an army, keepers of the peace, bla bla bla... me, I hadn't really followed the spoilers, and was blown off my seat once the fight starts with Kit Fisto leading a large group of Jedi straight into a mob of droids, and I loved every second of it afterwards. Another example, I've seen the movie "Scorpion King" got various bad reviews, because it was simple, bla bla bla... me, I loved it. One man and his allies going against an entire army... and winning. That's entertainment. Next week Saturday, I'll be going to the Matrix Reloaded movie. My plans are to simply sit back, grab a big bag o' popcorn, and simply be entertained from one action scene into another, whilst also keeping a close eye on the story.

I am a bit more forgiving when it comes to movies... I don't care if there are plot holes in the story, as long as it provides me with entertainment. That's what it's all about.

Vagabond
05-10-2003, 12:41 AM
Originally posted by Prime
Cannon? You mean like the Death Star super laser? :p


No, actually, I was thinking of something along the lines of a mortar, but I'm not picky :cool:

Solbe M'ko
05-10-2003, 02:19 AM
I think a game with the Vong could work, though maybe it wouldn't be exactly the same. You would have to rely more on the force for things like healing, fighting, telekenesis. The Vong are not *immune* to the force, they are just not part of it. What this means is that although, for example, a jedi couldn't *see* them through the force, he could see that the force was not there, and go by that.
I think that you could include the YV in games, but to make them the main focus would require some rethinking on the way the game would be made.
Bonus level would be the best compromise for JA.

The Count
05-10-2003, 05:45 PM
I think this thread should be closed for the simple reason Raven doesn't need to do <snip> EU research...<snip>...who cares even if it does conflict with the EU do you want a new game or not?

From Vagabond: Please refrain in the future, Count_D00ku, from attacking other members of these forums. You are free to debate different topics and hold your own opinion. However, you must not represent yourself in these forums in a hostile or offensive manner. You have been warned. Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

And this thread will not be closed simply because you disagree with certain views expressed herein. Enjoy.

Prime
05-10-2003, 06:14 PM
Originally posted by Solbe M'ko
I think a game with the Vong could work, though maybe it wouldn't be exactly the same. You would have to rely more on the force for things like healing, fighting, telekenesis. The Vong are not *immune* to the force, they are just not part of it. What this means is that although, for example, a jedi couldn't *see* them through the force, he could see that the force was not there, and go by that.
I think that you could include the YV in games, but to make them the main focus would require some rethinking on the way the game would be made.
Bonus level would be the best compromise for JA. I know what you are saying, but I fear what would happen if Lucasarts puts out a Star Wars game that only has the Vong as main adversaries. Many (most?) people who will pick up the game won't know about this enemy. People expect a Star Wars game to reflect what they see in the movies. That means stormtroopers and battledroids. I don't now how much interest there would be for general consumers. IMO, The Vong do not translate well to Star Wars game villians anyway.

Break_dF
05-11-2003, 02:01 AM
Originally posted by Count_D00ku
I think this thread should be closed for the simple reason Raven doesn't need to do <snip> EU research...<snip>...who cares even if it does conflict with the EU do you want a new game or not?

From Vagabond: Please refrain in the future, Count_D00ku, from attacking other members of these forums. You are free to debate different topics and hold your own opinion. However, you must not represent yourself in these forums in a hostile or offensive manner. You have been warned. Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

And this thread will not be closed simply because you disagree with certain views expressed herein. Enjoy.

Wow, admins have gotten cranky lately. Tired of living alone?

Vagabond
05-11-2003, 02:15 AM
Nope - not cranky at all. But Count_D00ku was insulting people because he didn't share their opinion. He's free to disagree, but he's not free to attack people. Just keep the debate civil - it's that simple. Thanks.

Solbe M'ko
05-11-2003, 02:29 AM
Prime,
I'm afraid you're probably right. The Yuuzhan Vong wouldn't be familiar to most SW fans, and so the game would not be marketable.
Remember the days when the games industry was a bunch of nerds in their parents' basement, making games for fun, instead of a bunch of advertisers sitting around conference rooms telling designers waht to do?

Prime
05-11-2003, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by Solbe M'ko
Remember the days when the games industry was a bunch of nerds in their parents' basement, making games for fun, instead of a bunch of advertisers sitting around conference rooms telling designers waht to do? I do. Sometimes I miss my old Commadore Vic 20 :)