View Full Version : Parallel Universes: Do they exist?

Reborn Outcast
04-16-2003, 09:38 PM
I read an article on Parallel Universes recently and to be honest, it scared me. Tell me what you think after I explain it a little more...

According to some groups of scientists, the simplest and most popular cosmological model today predicts that you have a twin in a galaxy about 10 to the 10^28 meter from here, which is still a HUGE amount of space. This theory derives from the fact that space is most likely infinite. Since its infinite, there will be an infinite number of habital planets in it, with an infinite chance that some will harbor beings that look like us, have the same name and the same memories as we do.

This theory also states that you will never see your other self as the farthest that you can observe is the distance that light has been able to travel in 14 billion years from the Big Bang. The most distant visible objects are about 4 x 10^26 meters away (this distance defines our visible universe and is also called the Hubble volume, or horizon volume.)

But this very definition of our "universe" being infinite, seems to contradict the theory of a multiverse, and put it forever in the domain of metaphysics. The only thing is, the borderline between metaphysics and physics is definable by if the theory can be experimentally tested and not whether it is weird or stupid. In fact, what is now physics today was metaphysics of yesteryear (a round Earth, curved space, black holes, time slowing down at high speeds just to name a few)

The theory of a multiverse has become over the past years to some people, a part of physics and not of metaphysics as the fact that tests have been done, and also the fact that it makes predictions AND it can be falsified.

Some scientists now believe that the question is not, is there a multiverse, but rather, how many levels does it have?

There are currently 3 levels of multiverse but they would require a very long and detailed explanation. If anyone wants, I could post about that.

So now the question is, do you believe in a multiverse? Or is it all just a silly idea?

04-16-2003, 10:09 PM
I'd believe in a multiverse only if I was able to move between each one, and then kill the other me's and gain strength in the process untill no one was left and I was the One. Yeah, that'd be sweet.

El Sitherino
04-16-2003, 10:43 PM
i believe it is possible because mathematically it is.

and munik. i'd do the same. we could become the elite warriors and control the world.:cool:

ET Warrior
04-16-2003, 10:50 PM
I like to think that there are multiverses......but the style of multiverse in Timeline......an infinite number of universes all vibrating parrallel to each other where all variables have different outcomes and whatnot.......

04-16-2003, 11:43 PM
Can you say "Back to the Future"?


Anyway,yeah I believe in a multivese.

04-17-2003, 01:38 AM
I like to think that there are multiverses......but the style of multiverse in Timeline......an infinite number of universes all vibrating parrallel to each other where all variables have different outcomes and whatnot.......

I believe it the way Deutch was trying to prove multiverse through light interference effect. But his count says (fortunately I think) that there is a finite number of parallel universe (at least a trillion per 1 photon).
There is another problem: uncertainty principle. The closer we get to photon the more unstable it becomes for our observation. And there is a thing that he states: that our space is a multiverse but so is our time. And then Time Travel problem is solved in a very simple way: no time loop, no other major problems. And time travel is only limited by our modern technology
And of course DNA replication should be mentioned. He says that life is really a unique thing and especially in multiverse: that a structure of life exists across universes (at least closely located to our)

A smashing thread!

04-17-2003, 09:15 AM
Originally posted by Homuncul
There is another problem: uncertainty principle. The closer we get to photon the more unstable it becomes for our observation.
A smashing thread!

Not much I can add here, well said troops.
mathematically probability alone implies either a Parallel or multiverse existance. However as Homuncul says the nature of the uncertainty principle means we may likely never find an experiment to verify these ideas.

Still it's excellent brain exercise to percieve these possibilities.

04-17-2003, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by munik
I'd believe in a multiverse only if I was able to move between each one, and then kill the other me's and gain strength in the process untill no one was left and I was the One. Yeah, that'd be sweet.

Watching too meny Jet Li movies aren't we? ^_^

04-17-2003, 09:08 PM
my thoughts exactly ;)

04-17-2003, 10:25 PM
well, i believe in this like i believe in the Golden Spiral. I agree with watching too much of The One, which wasnt even that sweet.

04-18-2003, 01:42 AM
The main problem with multiverse is that's it's main 3 theories has so far provided no prediction to be tested. Maybe tunneling phenomenon gives us a chance. A mind-matter connection is now studied deeply and I'm really hoping for it.
One fairly recent discovery in biology and physics is that microtubule exhibits superconductive and tunneling behaviors at body temperature. Microtubules are the site of quantum collapse in which information from multiple universes is collapsed in to a conscious selection or decision. Which shows that conscience is really a multiuniversal thing and proves life's uniqueness. So if the result is positive then we will have a lot higher probability of multiverse existence and many other interesting things. For example it will prove that telepathy, remote viewing, telekinesis and astral travel aren't really a mystique. Just a quantum connection to a multiverse. From my opinion this also leads to understanding that capacity of a human being is really enormous and everything Frank Herbert's Dune says to us can actually be not considered only science fiction but an ingenious intuition (which I think also is a multiverse connection) of farseeing author. Since microtubules exist in all neurons and neurons extand in to all parts of the body, the Bose-Einstein Condensatations (a group of atoms which are all in the same quantom state behaving as a single atom which explain how we reach our decisions) including all neurons would allow the body to exist in two or more places at the same time (how Dunish is that). So microtubule is a source of our consciousness.
The other question is how deep is this connection. I also believe Deutch in this that it's a connection between closely located universes.
These also lead to a better recognition of scientific approach no matter what Christian fundamentalists say to us (I spend whole last week chattering in a bible thread. I SURELY know things.What an irony!). And Idon't like those theories that claim God's "logic" to be selecting force for our universe to be biofriendly and for others to be not.

speck of dust
04-18-2003, 05:49 AM
This is all very very interesting. It makes sense to me.

I'd recommend you all read FLATLAND, by the mathematician Edwin Abbot Abbot. (if you don't already know it, it's a simple tale that takes place on a 2 dimensional world called flatland, where everything is only 2 dimesions: there's only north/south and east/west. No ABOVE or BELOW (up/down). The world is essentially like a flat sheet of paper, with it's inhabitants, who all look like simple 'shapes', living on one side. But they're living 'IN' the 2 dimensions. They can's see the perspective that we, in the third dimension, see when we look at a flat peice of paper from above. (like when you're 'in' the hallways of the deathstar you can't 'see' that you're in a giant sphere for example) The main character, who is simply a square, is visited by a 'sphere' from the 'third' dimension. The sphere rips him out of flatland and into the third dimension, spaceland, where the square can finally 'see' flatland from 'above'. Everything looks different from this new perspective. He's the 'shapes' of everyone and thing. Can see inside anything. When he's brought back into 2 dimensions, he tries to tell everyone about 'up' and 'down' but no one believes him. They can't even concieve of what a third dimension could be like....he's put in jail as a heretic.....I won't tell you what else happens, but you get the jist)

anyway, it's a great story and a great paralell to us living in 3 dimensions and can't really concieve of what 4 or 5 or 6 etc....would be like. Meaning that whatever exists in those higher dimensions could pretty much see our three dimensional plane all at once. Maybe when we die our energy 'rises' or 'returns' to those 'higher' places. Out of body experiences seem to explore similar realms. (that is, if they're real and not just manifestations of the mind) Who the hell knows? (why don't they ever get someone who claims to have an o.b.e. and CAT scan them or EKG scan them while they're having one?)

Hommuncul, I'd like to learn more about these microtubles, though. What exactly are they, can you explain them a little more. (or tell me where I can read about them)

I've also never read Dune, so I don't know what you mean by what Frank Herbert said humans are capable of. Can you elaborate?

Cosmos Jack
04-18-2003, 06:15 AM
Hmm do I think the universe is infinite? yes. Do I believe there is infinite possibilities? most likely. Do I a have a identical twin on the other side of the universe, in a parallel, or multilevel universe....hmmmm no and that's good news for everyone on this forum I'm sure.... A universe with 2 of me :lol: I would be pissing off twice the people in the same amount of time :D

There are lots of nuts with PhD's out there and they get paid a good amount of money to come up with already used Sci-Fi ideas. I think Gene Rodenbarry already covered all these possibilities in the 1st session of Star Trek.

I do think there is a lot of things that we don't understand and don't know about, but there is also the idea that the Universe is much simpler than we make it out to be...

What if all these scientist that have made headlines threw out the years were just real freaking high on drugs? <------pun idea TOOL. Big fan of Einstein and Carl Sagan though

04-18-2003, 10:57 AM
For those of you interested, that article was from Scientific American, May2003, Vol. 288 Issue 5, p41, 12p.

I haven't quite finished reading it myself (finals, term papers, a couple of projects at work... ughh.), but it is very interesting. It raises some questions such as if multiple universes are possible and probable, what differences would there be? Would they be truely exact? That would indicate that the many decisions where people do the mental coin flip (a 50/50 chance, decision, etc.) are influenced by environments. Assuming that the environments of both universes are identical, that would mean that all decisions were ultimately made the same and none were "chance" or "random" after all.

If there truly is a randomness to our universe, then how can it be that there is an "exact" universe unless the "randomness" was influenced the exact same way in both universes? That would, in and of itself, eliminate random probability and dictate that EVERY action of EVERY animate object is influenced by the environment and conditions.

Obviously I need to read and analyze the quantum dice portion of the article, which suggests that rolling the dice means that each individual die lands on all 6 posibilities at once..... hmm..

04-18-2003, 09:02 PM
Originally posted by Cosmos Jack
What if all these scientist that have made headlines threw out the years were just real freaking high on drugs? <------pun idea TOOL.Bill Hicks said that. Read the liner notes.

Cosmos Jack
04-19-2003, 07:08 PM
Originally posted by munik
Bill Hicks said that. Read the liner notes. I threw them away a long time ago..I just meant I got the idea from tool as in what was on the CD. I no tool didn't say it for that matter oh well..........take me to jail....

04-19-2003, 09:07 PM
Yeah, I figured as much. But giving you a hard time is so much fun it'd make baby jesus smile.

Cosmos Jack
04-19-2003, 09:25 PM
Jesus smiles at me every day and it's really getting freaky....

04-22-2003, 04:17 AM

I can't tell you names of sites on the Web. I don't remember, but if you type "quantom superconductivity" you probably won't miss it. Here is what I remember or can find in my notes (sounds stupid. If you find anything incorrect here please let me know):

Mictotubules are tiny tubular structures within neurons that are made from two forms of tubulin. The two forms can be switched by tiny electric currents, so Penrose (one of the leaders of theory) has proposed that the tubulin units may be the on/off switches for the brain's data processing
Hameroff has done a lot of research into how consciousness works and he has concluded that the microtubules are the source of our consciousness. This is discussed in and supported by Penrose's work. Hameroff has concluded that the observable quantum effects that occur in human brains are caused by highly aligned water that is inside the microtubules. Penrose agrees with this concept and further argues that Bose- Einstein Condensations (BECs) in the neurons are how we reach decisions. The BECs are possible because the water inside the microtubules can be strongly aligned to form a high-temperature superconductive medium.
ORMUS elements are a component of the water or "tubulin" inside the microtubules in every cell. Hameroff and Penrose have proposed that microtubules are the site of a "quantum collapse" in which information from multiple universes is "collapsed" into a "conscious selection" or decision. Sequences of these decisions makes up the consciousness of the cell and interactions between many cells makes up the consciousness of a person. In this way problems which would require as many decisions as there are atoms in the known universe can be solved using "calculations" performed in an infinite number of other universes.
There is evidence that these ORMUS elements connect with these other universes through something called the zero point. David Bohm, Rupert Sheldrake and others have postulated that there is an "implicate order" or "morphogenic field" out of which consciousness and matter arises. The "hard problem" of quantum physics is to figure out what the exact connection between mind or spirit and matter is.
In David Hudson's patent relating to the ORMUS elements he demonstrates that the ORMUS materials can be induced to disappear from our universe entirely by repeatedly heating them to 850 degrees Celsius.
Since the ORMUS elements can disappear from this universe it is obvious that they are going somewhere else.
Another property of the ORMUS elements is that they are superconductors at body temperatures and above. Superconducting atoms resonance connect with one another through something called a Meissner field. The Meissner field and another phenomenon connected with superconductivity, called Josephson tunnelling, have been seen in biological systems.
It is their theory that the ORMUS elements in the tubulin inside the microtubules create a resonance connection between cells in the brain and the rest of the body. They also postulate that these ORMUS elements connect to the infinite through the zero point.
As one increases the abundance of the ORMUS elements in the body, these resonance connections are strengthened. One example of an effect of this type of strengthened resonance connection is that when the DNA in cancer is repaired by the action of the platinum group ORMUS elements it is repaired to a healthy template provided by the healthy cells in the body rather than just to the cancer DNA template provided by the nearby cancer cells as is the case with cisplatin and other chemotherapy drugs.
Matti Pitkanen, a Finish physicist, claims that the movement of matter by mind which occurs inside of the microtubule is virtually identical to psychokinesis or moving objects outside the body by the power of mind alone.
They also assume that pre-and sub-conscious processing corresponds with quantum coherent superposition which can perform "quantum computing" (Penrose, 1989). A number of authors (e.g. Deutsch, 1985; Deutsch and Josza 1992; Feynman 1986; Benioff, 1982) have proposed that quantum coherence can implement multiple computations simultaneously, in parallel, according to quantum linear superposition: the quantum state then "collapses" to a particular result. A state which "self-collapses" will have an element of non-computability, even though evolution of its quantum coherence had been linear and computable. A quantum superposed state collapsed by external environment or observation lacks a non-computable element, and would thus be unsuitable for consciousness. Large scale quantum coherence occurring among tubulins (e.g. via electrons in hydrophobic pockets arrayed in the microtubule lattice, or ordered water within hollow MT cores) could take on aspects of a quantum computer in pre-conscious and sub-conscious modes
Penrose says:
"A critical number of tubulins maintaining coherence within microtubules for 500 msec collapses its own wave function. This occurs because the mass-energy difference among the superpositioned states of coherent tubulins critically perturbs space-time geometry. To prevent multiple universes, the system must reduce to a single space-time by choosing eigenstates."
Hameroff and Penrose are implying that in order to avoid "seeing" multiple universes at the same time, the quantum coherence created in microtubules by some material (they think the alchemical materials) must collapse. What if the quantum coherence did not collapse and we became aware of multiple universes? I think Dune is a good answer to this question (Of course it's all science fiction)
There is a good quote for all this:
"The point of all this is that these units are unpredictable, and fulfill all probabilities of consciousness. Any concepts of gods or other beings that are based upon limited ideas of personhood will ultimately be futile"


Dune is one of the best science fiction ever.
The Plot:
The growth of human knowledge is enormous, humans no longer use machines to resemble human thinking for logical calculation. There are special people who does computer's job (mentats). And all machines that resambled human thinking are destroyed by a jihad. Humans evovled through some 12 thousands of years (There are no aliens at all, just other humans evolving into something hardly recognizable). Dune itself is home to the treasure of the universe: gereatric spice which gives foresight and prelongs life. It's a poison that doesn't kills unless you stop taking it. The book is very interesting in interpreting multiverse and has no mystery in it so it makes life much easier.
You might find it very interesting because as I see you study religions deeply and Dune is full of this stuff. Religion there becomes a very powerful device (much more powerful than we have now). The book is kind of a mixture of Herbert's scientific and religious "beliefs".
In the center of action stand two houses. The simple laws of vendetta rule their relationships. One house rules with dignity, love and loyalty. The other with dishonour, fear and deceit. Simple matters but with great complexity in human perception of them. I like the ending, positive one.
Other 2 books are worth reading but they are much weaker than the first one and other3 are just a crap written either by late Herbert or his son (Here is what I don't understand. Can son be considered his father?)

Good luck in your research!

Darth Groovy
04-22-2003, 06:39 AM
Yes they do exist. It is called Key West, FL.


speck of dust
04-22-2003, 04:16 PM
Much much gratitude, Homuncul. Your notes were fascinating, hovering just at the very limits of my own 'microtubles' where I got the jist of what you're saying, but I would have a hard time fully fleshing it out and explaining it to someone else. lol

I will definitly study it further, so that I can wrap my head around it fully and produce a layman's version for me to write down and understand. What exactly or those ORMUS elements? (ORMUS being an anagram for what?) How do they observe them disappearing?

It sounds to me like if or when we develop a substance (organic, chemical, or pharmiceutical) that prevents the quantum coherence from collapsing in the microtubles, it would be the greatest drug of all time....(although, there would no longer BE time....lol)....like the spice you speak of in Dune, truly enabling us to experience what the grand design of the 'space' around us is, what we really are 'made' of and what sort of 'place' in the multiverse we share. Fascinating. Too bad we won't be around in a thousand years when they actually figure this out, lol...

Thank you again, Homuncul. Dune also sounds awesome, shame on me for not reading such a sci-fi classic.

On a side note, my wife is a Moscovite. Where are you from in Russia?

04-23-2003, 05:45 AM
Since Egyptian times alchemists tryed to find the Philosopher's Stone. And perhaps they (scientists as descendants of true alchemists) did now. These materials have many names: ORMEs, monoatomic gold, white gold, ORMUS, m-state, microclustersand even manna.
David Hudson (discoverer and patent owner) calls them Obitally Rearranged Monoatomic Elements (also sometimes adding in a high-spin state)
The ORMUS or m-state materials are thought to be metal elements in different atomic stae. The known elements are: cobalt, nickel, copper, ruthenium, rhodium, palladium, silver, osmium, iridium, platinum, gold, mercury (all of them are in great quantity in sea water! Remember quantum collapse). These m-state elements are also present in many biological systems (microtubules in every cell!).
Some believe (due to some old alchemical texts) that Philosopher's Stone and Biblical manna are both variations on this state of matter.

ORMUS theory (not fully proven yet)

A monoatomic element has 1 atom per molecule; a diatomic - 2. Certain elements in a monoatomic and diatomic configuration can form a stable structure. Elements in this configuration are superconductors at room temperature (very exciting and promising!) and exhibit other quantum physical behaviors including:
- anomalous responses to gravity
- superfluidity
- "tunneling" through solid objects
- deformed nuclei in a high-spin state

I myself don't know much about deformed nuclei and anomalous response to gravity yet these things are in my notes on the subject. I'll try to update later

Superfludity is analogous to conventional low-temeperature superconductivity, in which electrons flow through certain metals and alloys without resistence.

Also an important thing about superconducytors is that they can be manipulated by magnetic fields. For example if you tunnel these m-state from magnetic fields while boiling them they won't tunnel (disappear) from the box where you you're doing this. BECs are also known to have the ability of "tunneling" (Josephson Tunneling Effect) across impenetrable barriers.

One term for ORMUS materials is microclusters:
"A microcluster is a small chemically inert cluster of atoms that has definite crystalline structure. They can be synthetic, however for this work an assumption is that the natural microclusters are forms comparable to the man-made microcluster. Microcluster research started with natural occurrences. Clusters exist as molecular species which can substitute and mimic various elements for one another. Microclusters can be as large as 200 or more atoms. Certain atomic examples for each atom are rare; the rarity is due to current physical chemistry concepts. Research has demonstrated that natural micro-clusters are superconductors; they are Cheshire in that they can disappear and avoid chemical detection by conventional means. Most, if not all, have catalytic properties; they are magnetic or can be induced to have electromagnetic properties; and they can form giant inert ions which I call Mega-ions." (don't know who's quote is that)

So, although these elements are the same as the "heavy metal" elements, they are not in a metallic state and as long as the m-state of these elements is present in sufficient amounts, the metallic portion seems to "borrow" the properties of the m-state.

One of the problems with modern quantum physical theories is that there is no way to logically connect the Bose-Einstein condensates, which have been demonstrated to exist in small groups of atoms at a millionth of a degree above absolute zero (where atoms move much slower), with the BEC like behavior of microtubules at body temperature in living cells. ORMUS materials make this connection.

It sounds to me like if or when we develop a substance (organic, chemical, or pharmiceutical) that prevents the quantum coherence from collapsing in the microtubles, it would be the greatest drug of all time....(although, there would no longer BE time....lol)

I think it will also be our greatest curse too, but somehow I think this process is unstoppable and in time will probably do that (in some manner)

How do they observe them disappearing?

Funny you ask but they just disappear without trace and that's all, it's non-observable. One instant they are , the other - they're gone

Too bad we won't be around in a thousand years when they actually figure this out, lol...

Maybe we will... (Did you read Tipler's Physics of Immortality)

I'm amazed at how it all turns and somehow feel sad understanding human's limited imagination. Mostly we percieve and work with something so small (both literally and figuratively) and can't have any ability to percieve and understand something bigger. I've just read Flatland (brilliant work). I remember myself thinking about other dimensions on a lecture some 2 years ago and I was stuck. Then our lecturer was discribing 4-dimensional reality. He told us about physical 4-dimension in our world to be information-dimention (of course it's not 16 terminal points of "no longer cube"). None of the students undrstood anything. Now I think I have a glimse of It. Not that this story opened my mind: all of the things Abbot says I have already thought of. But it made me structure my knowledge on this matter and so thanks to him. It's a story everyone obligatorily must read. The simplicity of explanation of such a difficult thing is an intriging core of understanding wether we can possibly percieve other dimensions m. I think we might do that (of course with an unverbal method). We're multidementional except our other demension extensions are extremely small

Involving quantum computatrion through multiple universes I think maybe we don't need any quantum computers other than human brain (Again Dunish)?

P.S. I live in Saint-Petersburg and study in university on economic faculty (3d course). Moscow s great, really a european city, I live there from time to time in summer.

speck of dust
04-23-2003, 06:34 AM
Wow, I'm glad you read Flatland, Homuncul. Was it because I recommended it, or had you already known about it? Either way, good for you. Everyone should read it. It puts it all in perspective. You're right, it's not anything you having thought of before, but it makes it clearer somehow.

Think of the way the sphere appears to a flatlander as it moves down 'through' two dimensions: First it appears out of nowhere as a small circle, then it grows and grows to a big circle, then it shrinks again back to the small circle, and then it's gone back to the nowhere it came from.

If you scale that animation up to 3 dimensions, and put a 4 dimensional hyper-sphere passing through our 3 dimensions would first appear from nowhere as a small sphere, say a pea, then grow to a golfball size, then a baseball size, then a basktball size, then shrink back down till it's gone back to the nowhere it came from.

With that in mind, think of the life of a star: from birth to death, over billions of years, a star 'grows' in a similar way, getting bigger and redder as it burns out, then collapses back again into a singularity, and then 'disappears'. (black holes still defy our 3 dimensional reality) An intriguing analogy, no? And if the fourth or fifth dimension is 'time', then the fact that it takes a star billions of years to pass through our dimension, means nothing in the overall scheme of its dimensional reality.

Stars are the heart and soul of our universe, who's to say they're not rooted at a higher plane of existence?

Doesn't the imagry make sense?

04-24-2003, 04:56 AM
It makes perfect sense

And there's something you made me think about. When massive star collapses into a black hole it becomes very small so coming partly to the other dimensions of our universe. But it stays in our space-time, we can perceive it by obsrerving nothing in space instead of stars and so say that a black hole is there or by watchig double star system one of which is a black hole. Circle of life of a black hole still doesn't stop in the moment it becomes a hole. And it is said by scientists that it takes the whole time of the universe to complete it's circle . Imagine you're coming to the event horizon. To actually pass it you'll have to see time of the universe passing before your eyes. So as you put it, it means that 1. singularity is a way to understand other dimentions , 2. it takes time (in Spaceland) of the universe for a black hole (partly seen hypersphere) to disappear from our space-time to other dimentions and that there is no such thing as time direction in other dimentions, so that a life being (if one can be called that way) in 5th dimension would see everything of our space-time (our past-future, intestines and else) and above that would be also limited in his perception by something even bigger and so forth. Perhaps he would perceive multiverse and that could be the answer to the quantum collapse effect in microtubule. Stop, stop! So many things to think about, my brains are burning!

speck of dust
04-24-2003, 06:53 PM

my microtubles are burning, my synapses are buzzing, my poor brain is twisting-

a pleasureable pain

it's as if my mind is evolving this very minute....

I'm grasping, understanding, and wrapping my skull around these things much bigger than me...


05-12-2003, 05:37 AM
I'd believe in a multiverse only if I was able to move between each one, and then kill the other me's and gain strength in the process

Man that would rock... I'd love to be able to woop 500 or so criminals and dodge bullets and stuff...