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C'jais
04-22-2003, 03:05 PM
So, what do you believe?

This is primarily directed at the Christians in here, as I'm really interested in hearing how they think people get to heaven and hell.

Is faith enough? Must you do good works as well?

Can anyone living by the Bible's moral guidelines, but not accepting Jesus, get to heaven regardless?

Do you get judged upon entering the afterlife?

Can you get out of hell by some way?

What does heaven, hell or the afterlife look like?

Is hell punishment, and is heaven a reward?

What can you do in heaven? Can you learn and experience new sensations? Is it truly worth being there if a close friend is in hell?

Can the devil and fallen angels be accepted back into heaven? Can God forgive Satan?

Is it right for anyone to go about saying certain people are damned even though hey do not know for sure? Is it only God that knows this?

If you don't believe in an afterlife, can you be moral? If you behave well because you're afraid of punishment, are you then obeying a moral, or a law? Can morality be imposed this way?

Kurgan
04-22-2003, 03:25 PM
It is my honor and privilege to be the first one (I hope) to answer your query:


Is faith enough? Must you do good works as well?

No. Yes.

If by faith you mean intellectual assent to a certain belief or set of beliefs, then no, that's not enough. A person might simply believe in the "right thing" but live a life empty of proper action, and thus be amoral (or even immoral). Without works, "faith is dead." Likewise, a person with no beliefs might be very good to their fellow man, and thus live a life more meaningful than one with all the belief in the world. So I think that while a proper balance is healthy (and proper faith should lead to good works), works are pretty darn important, any way you look at it, from a practical standpoint.


Can anyone living by the Bible's moral guidelines, but not accepting Jesus, get to heaven regardless?

I assume by this you mean Jews. Yes, a good person who is Jewish can get to heaven.

If you disagree, ask yourself this: if Jesus is the way, who is more his disciple... one who doesn't know him, but does what he asks, or one who knows him, but doesn't do as his master taught?


Do you get judged upon entering the afterlife?

We really don't know, but sometime after death, I believe there's a judgement. Many believe that it happens right after death, or in the traditional sense it happens for everybody in a "final judgement" (some believe in a first and then second judgement), or that to our soul's it will seem immediate but really be after the end of the world.... etc. I think its more important to prepare ourselves before we die, if possible.


Can you get out of hell by some way?


I think of heaven and hell as permanent. I know not everyone does, and I'm still wrestling with the idea of a permanent hell as compatible with the idea of a fully just God, but tradition holds that once you're in, that's pretty much it.


What does heaven, hell or the afterlife look like?


Who knows. That might even be an irrelevant question, as they may not be "places" we can experience with our normal senses like we have now. Some believe that it depends on the person ("personal hells" "personal rewards" that kind of thing). Frankly, I don't know. Never been there... I imagine heaven would be some kind of happiness (vision of God's glory, reuinited with loved ones, knowledge of the secrets of the universe, etc) and hell would be its opposite.


Is hell punishment, and is heaven a reward?


Yes. Heaven would be a "reward" for a good soul, hell a punishment for a bad soul. It could be that heaven is simply a place we "belong" with God and hell a place we might also belong if we made ourselves that way...


What can you do in heaven? Can you learn and experience new sensations? Is it truly worth being there if a close friend is in hell?


No idea. In heaven we should be able to do more than we can do on earth, not being limited to fragile human forms anymore (we might have bodies, but probably not like we have now). I don't see why not... Yes, if God is more of a friend than even our closest earthly friend could be, and if we could understand why they couldn't make it, I think it would be bearable, despite how hard it might be at first.


Can the devil and fallen angels be accepted back into heaven? Can God forgive Satan?

God could forgive them, the question is if he would or not. If hell is for all time, I assume it wouldn't be fair to let some people out, but not others. Those who believe hell is only temporary might say that eventually, even Satan will finish up his sentence eventually and get to come back. I can't say.


Is it right for anyone to go about saying certain people are damned even though hey do not know for sure? Is it only God that knows this?

Yes. It's the height of human arrogance to say somebody else is damned and somebody else is not. While it is surely prudent to warn somebody you think is doing wrong, who might be endangering their soul (they may or may not listen of course), and encourage someone who is doing what seems to be good, leaving the final judgement up to God seems proper, since God would know the person's heart (intentions, feelings, thoughts) and would know their final moments.

With this extra knowledge, God would know far more than any of us, what state that person's soul was in.


If you don't believe in an afterlife, can you be moral?

Yes. One might have other reasons for being moral than fear of punishment/desire for a reward. Even if you believe in an afterlife, that doesn't guarnetee you will be moral. Not everyone believes in the same afterlife, after all, and like one's own death, it usually seems "far off" and its easy to forget about it and do whatever we want, or act impulsively.


If you behave well because you're afraid of punishment, are you then obeying a moral, or a law?

Ah yes, the legal vs. moral code. Fear that stops people from doing wrong is a deterrent, and a good thing. Respect that encourages good behavior is better, and doing right because its the right thing to do is true virtue.


Can morality be imposed this way?

Only on a very basic level. Eventually, a person has to evolve past this point. Think of a child...

You tell the child "don't play with matches because you'll get a spanking if you do."

They understand what a spanking is, but not what harm matches could do if used improperly. Eventually the child learns that the reason not to play with matches is because they could start a fire and do harm to themselves or others, and matches are not a toy, to be handled in a trivial manner. You could try to explain it to the child, but if they are very young, they may not really understand other than its wrong because "a grown-up said so." So sometimes you just have to "lay down the law."

I think a similar thing applies to this.

Breton
04-22-2003, 03:53 PM
Just want to ask a few other things:

Can you be a good person even if you don't believe in God? If so, why should these persons go to hell?

If God is all-powerful, why doesn't he destroy all the bad things in the world?

ShockV1.89
04-22-2003, 03:56 PM
You tell the child "don't play with matches because you'll get a spanking if you do."

They understand what a spanking is, but not what harm matches could do if used improperly. Eventually the child learns that the reason not to play with matches is because they could start a fire and do harm to themselves or others, and matches are not a toy, to be handled in a trivial manner. You could try to explain it to the child, but if they are very young, they may not really understand other than its wrong because "a grown-up said so." So sometimes you just have to "lay down the law."


Nice analogy. :)

C'jais
04-22-2003, 04:04 PM
Thanks for the replies, Kurgan - appreciated :thumbsup:

Now, as for some of my answers:

Hell is seperation from God. It's not a fiery pit, it's just a sort of darkness and self-loathing from being away from the one who created you. Heaven is not a gold-laden city on clouds, it's a kind of eternal gratitude for being with something that created everything.

Sinning keeps you from God, right? If you can't reach him because of sin, it's not because he's mad at you, or wants to punish you, it's because you're unable to see him, meet him, while wearing the blinders of sin. Sinning is a kind of self-hate and feeling that the only way you can be happy is for happiness to come to you on your terms.

But here's the paradox: Why is it that God is unable to allow everyone in his presence? He made the concept of sin, and he can make anyone come to him. He can undo the presence of sin if he wants. For me, it can only really make sense if God isn't perfect - he can't change the universal truths like kindness is the opposite of evil etc.

About people going to heaven: I think it's unfair that it's only through faith. That means someone who kills puppies and eat hearts is going into heaven as long as he fervently believes in Christ as the guy who's going to pull him through (I'm with Kurgan here, yeah). That's the same as saying that "I failed all my classes, but I showed up everyday, so I deserve the graduation". I can't get my mind around that. Someone who's been nice to everyone, and lived a good, moral life should get a chance to get into heaven. If poor Ghandi doesn't get a proper judgement, there's only pride in Jesus, to me.

Regarding fate, which I forgot to adress in the questions above, I must ask now: Does God know your fate? Does he know the fate of the world? If so, God knew that the second he gave Man free will, they'd reject his gift, and so they needed to be redeemed. Sounds like a bait to me.

C'jais
04-22-2003, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by Breton
If God is all-powerful, why doesn't he destroy all the bad things in the world?

Because if he did, he'd destroy free will as well.

It is inherent in Man to do bad things. If you take that ability away, it'd be like taking away the ability to think.

I think ;)

C'jais
04-22-2003, 05:06 PM
Ultimately, I think it's good for most people to have Christianity at their disposal. Christianity is about forgiveness and redemption - something many people could learn from. It's good to know that people learn to sacrifice their pride for enlightenment.

What a lot of religions have in common is that they believe humans are inherently flawed - that we must strive to perfect ourselves. Of course, perfection is unattainable, but it's the striving that matters. Kind of like the holy grail: You will never be able to reach it if you strive for pride, simply to get the prize (the grail, heaven etc). Only through striving for the grail, and accepting that to strive is enough, that it is the quest that matters, not the end, then will you truly attain it.

I think a lot of religious people in general could learn that they are not in a position to judge. Are they so proud as to completely forsake the rapist which has sinned and refused to accept Jesus, to not even once consider that he is still your brother, and that God may one day allow him entrance to his house? Only through the grace of your God can you find him, and the rapist is no less capable of being redeemed than you are. Don't be so quick to deal out damnation and judgement.

I think there are other ways to immortality, though. We're all part of nature, and even though we'll once die, we'll still be a part of it. When you lie in your grave, you'll get consumed by nature through worms, birds and the like. If a little of "you" finds a way into another creature, that essence will be used to build a new life. In effect, you will be reincarnated, and even if you'll never continue your genetic code through children, you'll still be a part of the world, forever. That's my paradise - the essence survives the form.

El Sitherino
04-22-2003, 06:38 PM
your words are very true jais.

i also wish to see their answers on many of these matters. often i see they don't wish to judge themselves or eachother because just by following jesus they get into heaven. just seems that way. they just go around and condemn others who decide to just worship god or others who decide to worship noone but still follow morals.

Kurgan
04-22-2003, 08:44 PM
Now I know I'm not God, but let's say I was, and I was going to create some beings that I could study and could worship me.

I figure I want them to have a choice whether or not to love me, since if I force them to, I'll never know if its genuine love or not.

Okay, so I give them free will. Now, when I do that, I accept that some people are going to totally abuse it and make other people suffer, etc.

But for the sake of justice, shouldn't those people be punished for what they do wrong?

Now I'm not saying eternal punishment is justified. Even a person like Hitler surely would learn his lesson after a billion years or so of burning in fire/acid, whatever. But I leave that up to God. It's not like I can vote on it or anything!

Now I am Catholic, so I believe in the concept of Purgatory, which is nice because it allows people with a few stubborn sins (but not major mortal sins) to get those cleansed away in a finite period (read Dante's Divine Comedy for examples.. he's no theologian, but his imaginative ideas about the afterlife are fun to read).

I don't believe that atheists go to Hell just for being atheists. If an atheist lived as Christ lived, helping others and loving his enemies, etc. he would be doing more than a self-professed Christian who was hypocritical, saying he believed but not doing what was expected of him, etc.

Perhaps if you had no faith in God whatsoever, but were good, God could easily straighten you out before you entered the "pearly gates" and I think that's something he would do.

If you knew God existed, and stubbornly refused to follow him, I think that it would go worse than if you honestly searched your whole life and just never found faith.

I believe that God works good through people ("grace") and even if you don't know its being worked through you, its still grace. Thus we should look for examples of grace in people, regardless of their religious background.

Religion is meant as a guide for a person to live a moral life. As Jesus once said "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.."

C'jais
04-22-2003, 10:08 PM
Originally posted by Kurgan
Now I know I'm not God, but let's say I was, and I was going to create some beings that I could study and could worship me.

But why would I want to create them in the first place? To study, you say? That seems to me as a bit of a waste of time, as God, in his perfection, already knows what is going to happen.

And why would he want them to worship him? Seems like a selfish act to me, but I could take it the wrong way.

Okay, so I give them free will. Now, when I do that, I accept that some people are going to totally abuse it and make other people suffer, etc.

"No one is a villain in his own mind"

I don't this is called "abusing". It's not a gift to a person who takes it as a natural thing. You can't really imagine not to have free will, IMHO. Just like you can't really imagine what it's like to live like an ant. Too alien.

I think much of the "evil" in today's world is caused through carelessness and foolishness, not evil intent.

But for the sake of justice, shouldn't those people be punished for what they do wrong?

I don't think so, no. Because you see, this means that there must be some sort of higher law, and it means everyone knows about it. You and I might say that to steal is an evil act, sinning even, but to people living on the streets, it's natural. They don't even think twice about it, and never have, because that's what they're grown up with.

I don't think you can truly justify punishing someone who doesn't know he's doing something wrong, after he's lost the ability to make up for it, to live and to act. It's futile to punish someone after he's dead - punishing someone is supposed to correct him, or at the very least correct the onlookers through statuating an example. This doesn't really work here, however, as you obviously can't correct the dead guy. He can just suffer, and no one will be any wiser. Neither can you correct the living, as they don't know what the hell (excuse the pun) is going on to their friend. It's downright immoral to "punish" someone that way. The only thing God gets out of it is for all the saved people to gloat over how right they were, perhaps feel sorry for the poor soul but they can't really do anything, and a tortured, screaming person in agony forever who definately can't do anything about his position.

I don't get it, in short.

I believe that God works good through people ("grace") and even if you don't know its being worked through you, its still grace. Thus we should look for examples of grace in people, regardless of their religious background.

Religion is meant as a guide for a person to live a moral life. As Jesus once said "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.."

Sound wisdom. I agree.

Rad707_Pandaz
04-23-2003, 05:35 AM
People are always saying you need to worship the "right" religion and you get into heaven. No offense but that seems like complete bull****.

It's not worshipping the "right" religion that will get you a ticket to heaven, it's living the "right" way. So far, in a world of pedophile priests and thieving priests...the closest to living the right way are monks. Monks live by strict rules, VERY strict rules. It takes the Ten Commandments to a new extreme. Monks don't kill ANYTHING, not even cockroaches. They can't get romantically involved with anybody. They can't swear or show hate.Sure, there are few weirdos in the bunch, namely the monks who set themselves on fire...but the majority rules.

I think God loves everyone...even the devil. Hey, someone had to get the job, it just happens that the devil got it. God is fair to all. If I had any complaint about God, it would be: He has the oddest sense of humor I've ever seen.

Another thing: People keep asking "Why does God let bad things happen to good people?" That's a good question, but I think I've figured it out. See, when someone yells out the lord's name in vain God's all like "What?" and he looks in their direction. While God's back is turned, the devil does bad things. Then when God turns around, the damage has already been done. Another explanation would be that balance needs to exist or something.

Anyways, those are my thoughts.

Kurgan
04-24-2003, 05:24 AM
Priests, monks, nuns, etc elected officials, people on the witness stand in courts, and married people all make vows.

But vows are only as good as the people who make them.

Thus living your life according to vows is an admirable thing, but its not a guarentee that you'll be a good or true person. You have to constantly be re-afirming them in your life.

So when we see some leader or clergyman fall from grace, that isn't a sign that the vows themselves are wrong, but rather that that person couldn't keep them, for whatever reason.

Interesting thoughts btw. I just figure that sure, we have free will, but our free will is limited by everyone else around us.

Now I'm not saying I don't believe miracles can happen (with an omnipotent God, all things are possible) but I get a little nervous when I see people saying after a big car crash or accident or battle "Well I know God saved me from that disaster"... because I mean, what about the people who DIDN'T survive? Does that mean they didn't have enough faith or God didn't love them as much? I don't think that makes a lot of sense.

I think God lets us pretty much do what we do, and the natural world works according to laws God set up. The way he truly motivates people is in their hearts/minds/souls by grace... to do good. We can always listen intead to our desires rather than what God wants us to do.

And surely God doesn't answer all our prayers. What if somebody prayed that a nuclear war would happen? I don't think prayers are magic, but rather like instant messages or a suggestion box. ; )

I think with prayer your intention really matters too. If you pray for somebody who is sick and they don't recover, that you cared enough to think of them is probably just as meaningful as if they recovered or not. But the effects may seem invisible, but somewhere, they may help someone. Surely if God knows our hearts, God knows best what we need...

If God spent all his/her/its time fixing all our mistakes (ie: not letting anything bad happen to anyone) would we become complacent and lifeless? Would we stop trying?

It reminds me of this one Powerpuff Girls cartoon I saw, where the people of Townsville get so lazy because the Powerpuff Girls save them from every single problem, including really stupid stuff like cats stuck in trees or being stuck in traffic. So they finally get fed up and say "save yourselves!"


I think that the good people do when they put aside selfishness is where God truly works miracles. Everything else can be attributed to random chance...

Now maybe random chance is where God works, but isn't that sort of a cop out? Just some more thoughts to ponder...

mr116
04-24-2003, 11:52 PM
'scuse me, but someone said in an earlier post that it was a paradox that God who initiated sin, and that it was wrong that he wouldn't let everyone into his presence because of that.

I think I have to say that it was not God who created sin, but rather Satan, who rebelled on his own free will, and thus started sin, which he passed onto man in the Garden of Eden.

Reborn Outcast
04-25-2003, 12:15 AM
Yes, Satan rebelled and God allowed him to. But Satan was thrown into the firey lake to be tormented forever or until the Son of Man returns again...


Since Kurgan already answered the questions well, if there are any more, then I'll jump in right there.

munik
04-25-2003, 12:31 AM
Originally posted by C'jais
I don't think you can truly justify punishing someone who doesn't know he's doing something wrong, after he's lost the ability to make up for it, to live and to act. It's futile to punish someone after he's dead - punishing someone is supposed to correct him, or at the very least correct the onlookers through statuating an example. This doesn't really work here, however, as you obviously can't correct the dead guy. He can just suffer, and no one will be any wiser. Neither can you correct the living, as they don't know what the hell (excuse the pun) is going on to their friend. It's downright immoral to "punish" someone that way. The only thing God gets out of it is for all the saved people to gloat over how right they were, perhaps feel sorry for the poor soul but they can't really do anything, and a tortured, screaming person in agony forever who definately can't do anything about his position.

I don't get it, in short.I've never thought of it like that C'jais, it's an interesting application of logic to the afterlife. So, in that vein I think the idea of hell is used as a deterent. But like you said, if no one ever sees the punishment applied, how can it work as a deterent? Faith, I reckon. If you have enough faith to believe in god, then you would also have faith that god is not lying to you about hell. I find the answer of faith to be a cop out in these types of discussion, but it truly is the only real reason to believe in god and such. It's so illogical that it's a waste of breath to apply logic, as faith knows no logic.

Reborn Outcast
04-25-2003, 12:41 AM
Originally posted by C'jais
I don't think you can truly justify punishing someone who doesn't know he's doing something wrong, after he's lost the ability to make up for it, to live and to act. It's futile to punish someone after he's dead - punishing someone is supposed to correct him, or at the very least correct the onlookers through statuating an example. This doesn't really work here, however, as you obviously can't correct the dead guy. He can just suffer, and no one will be any wiser. Neither can you correct the living, as they don't know what the hell (excuse the pun) is going on to their friend. It's downright immoral to "punish" someone that way. The only thing God gets out of it is for all the saved people to gloat over how right they were, perhaps feel sorry for the poor soul but they can't really do anything, and a tortured, screaming person in agony forever who definately can't do anything about his position.

Well the thing is... In the Bible it says that those in Heaven spend all their time praising the glory and power and majesty of God. Those who would gloat that they are in Heaven, would not be there.

ShockV1.89
04-25-2003, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
Well the thing is... In the Bible it says that those in Heaven spend all their time praising the glory and power and majesty of God. Those who would gloat that they are in Heaven, would not be there.

But how would you explain the rest of his post? I agree, people wouldnt be doing something as base as gloating in heaven. But it still isnt fair to punish someone for doing something wrong when they didnt know it was wrong, and then not give them the chance to atone.

Reborn Outcast
04-25-2003, 12:10 PM
Ok then.

C'jais, give me an example of someone doing something wrong and not knowing it so I can see what you're trying to say. :D

C'jais
04-25-2003, 12:26 PM
Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
Well the thing is... In the Bible it says that those in Heaven spend all their time praising the glory and power and majesty of God. Those who would gloat that they are in Heaven, would not be there.

I know, I was just kidding about the gloating part.

But what is the alternative? To not care about the eternally suffering souls? Sure sounds like heavenly joy. To pity them in all eternity? Then it'd be just as much torture for them.

Thing is, there's no "punishment" in the eternal torture. The suffering souls didn't know they were doing anything wrong in life, they can't correct or atone themselves, and they sure as hell don't statuate an example to anyone but their heavenly brothers and sisters who apparently don't give a flying f*ck about them anyway. The punishment is thus useless and futile This makes it what, then? It makes it a perverse, selfish act for God to indulge in, while getting high on his power trip and desire to see his own rules enforced, no matter the purpose or uselessness of them.

C'jais
04-25-2003, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
C'jais, give me an example of someone doing something wrong and not knowing it so I can see what you're trying to say. :D

-Someone puts himself before his wife and kids.

-Someone values animal life higher than human life.

-Someone lets his rational thought take a step back to passion.

-Someone who lacks the ability to hold empathy for anyone but himself.

-Someone takes the law into his own hands.

-Someone who is unable to read emotions.

-Someone who has no fear.

-Someone who puts the needs of this planet before the needs of his fellow humans.

-Someone who puts the needs of his god before the needs of his fellow humans.

-Someone who thinks love is selfish, and thus refuse to love anyone.

But really, you're sidestepping the issue Reborn. You have not understood my post. This is about the worthlessness of hurting someone after they're dead. Who's it going to help? Who's it going to change? Who's it going to satisfy?

Kurgan
04-26-2003, 12:01 PM
But it still isnt fair to punish someone for doing something wrong when they didnt know it was wrong, and then not give them the chance to atone.

That's precisely the point. I don't believe in a God that does that, so its not a problem for me.

Now a person might need to be corrected (in the human realm, if you break the law, even if you didn't know it was illegal, you still usually get punished, though often less severely than if you knew what was going on), but that doesn't mean they're going to burn in hell forever for something they had no idea was wrong.

The fact is that someone can still cause harm, even if he had the best intentions.

shukrallah
04-28-2003, 01:30 AM
wow havnt been to lucasforums in like a month, didnt know you were still asking about stuff.


Is faith enough? Must you do good works as well?

no, u have to accept Jesus Christ as your personnel savior. the bible syas somewhere (cant remember where) the only way to the Father is through the Son. you dont nned good deeds, they are extra.

all these questions are answered in the bible. i thought you had read the whole thing. it describe being judged, how to become a christian, what heaven and hell looks like, it explains hell is a punishment, heaven is a reward, the bible says Satan and the fallen angels will go to Hell in the end, it says you go to Hell forever.

Is it right for anyone to go about saying certain people are damned even though hey do not know for sure? Is it only God that knows this?

nope people shouldnt say whos going to heaven or hell, thats for God to decide, not even the arcangel told Satan to go to hell.

If you don't believe in an afterlife, can you be moral? If you behave well because you're afraid of punishment, are you then obeying a moral, or a law? Can morality be imposed this way?

you have still sinned, everyone has sinned, so no one can enter the gates of heaven with out being forgiven of there sins.

What can you do in heaven? Can you learn and experience new sensations? Is it truly worth being there if a close friend is in hell?

i dont think your close friend will be wanting to talk much, or do whatever you do on earth. in hell you are tormented, at least in heaven you will be at peace, no pain, no suffering, thing like that.
no one really knows about what God has planned for his children when they reach heaven.


But what is the alternative? To not care about the eternally suffering souls? Sure sounds like heavenly joy. To pity them in all eternity? Then it'd be just as much torture for them.

no no no, God will turn away from them, he wont even act like they are there, so people in heaven will either.


dont really know what happens when people who dont know what there doing wrong die....some where in there life God shows them, and if they dont figure it out, then thats there problem.

munik
04-28-2003, 02:02 AM
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
no one really knows about what God has planned for his children when they reach heaven.So it could all be one big setup, and when you get to heaven god pokes you in the eye. C'mon, you must have some idea of heaven. I don't think people have been joining this cult for thousands of years if they didn't know what the reward was.Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
no no no, God will turn away from them, he wont even act like they are there, so people in heaven will either.Sounds like a cool guy to hang around, everyone ignores their friends because god doesn't like them. Sounds like a situation from highschool.

Kurgan
04-28-2003, 10:21 AM
As to what heaven is like, who can say, but the general belief in Christianity is that it is eternal happiness, beholding the glory of God, being reunited with loved ones, etc.

No more suffering, no more death, etc. forever.

If God showing somebody the error of their ways is needed, and it didn't happen on earth somehow, I think God could always zap them into purgatory, show them the score, and then take them to the pearly gates. I think the idea is that people have free will all through this, so they could still turn away and refuse to repent, etc, and be self-condemned.

But the general belief is that once you make it to purgatory, you're pretty much on your way. It's more important how you live, in the end.

ShockV1.89
04-28-2003, 12:10 PM
no, u have to accept Jesus Christ as your personnel savior. the bible syas somewhere (cant remember where) the only way to the Father is through the Son. you dont nned good deeds, they are extra.

See, I take issue with this. If I spend my entire life doing good deeds, saving lives, starting and donating to charities, and improving the world, why should I not go to heaven? It strikes me as strange that someone who did the bare minimum but believed in Jesus is somehow more entitled to entrance than someone who was a shining star of humanity but simply couldnt take that leap of faith.

I think Kurgan is right on, here.

shukrallah
04-28-2003, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by ShockV1.89
See, I take issue with this. If I spend my entire life doing good deeds, saving lives, starting and donating to charities, and improving the world, why should I not go to heaven? It strikes me as strange that someone who did the bare minimum but believed in Jesus is somehow more entitled to entrance than someone who was a shining star of humanity but simply couldnt take that leap of faith.

I think Kurgan is right on, here.


Look if the bible says u cant get to heaven with out accepting christ, then you cant. The reason good deeds dont get in you into heaven is because you have sinned before, even if all you have done wrong is just 1 little lie, you have sinned, and have fallen short.

As for purgatory, there is no purgatory, God said you either make it, or you dont, we have our chance now! Im telling you this, thats a chance God is giving you. Once you know what you have to do, whether you believe it or not, you know, and if you dont do it, its your own fault. Why would God let people into heaven if they have rejected him, and they knew about him. Jus tbaout everyone alive today has heard about him, so if they dont turn its there own fault. God said there is no middle area, just Heaven or Hell. The bible, God's word to man, doesnt mention purgatory, so if there was God would have tol us, but instead he said, once youve failed, youve failed.

Think of life as a job, you turn to God and try to help others turn to him too, or you do what you want. Does a boss pay you for doing nothing in your job? No! its the same way with God, if you dont do your work, you dont get paid, instead you get punished.

Sounds like a cool guy to hang around, everyone ignores their friends because god doesn't like them. Sounds like a situation from highschool.

no no no, someone has ignored God, and gone to Hell, why would he pay attention to them? That person didnt bother to pay attention to him, so u cant have it both ways. its that life long lesson : Treat others the way you want to be treated.

personally, I think you guys want to go to Heaven, but you want an easier way. Well there is no easier way, its through Christ, or your screwed, sorry but thats the way it is.

-lukeskywalker1

ShockV1.89
04-28-2003, 07:45 PM
personally, I think you guys want to go to Heaven, but you want an easier way. Well there is no easier way, its through Christ, or your screwed, sorry but thats the way it is.

How is simply believing something, but not doing any real good deeds and contributing anything to the world easier than the example I provided above?

I'd say the person who dedicates their life to public good (sort of like a nonreligious mother teresa) has worked harder than your run of the mill christian.


Look if the bible says u cant get to heaven with out accepting christ, then you cant. The reason good deeds dont get in you into heaven is because you have sinned before, even if all you have done wrong is just 1 little lie, you have sinned, and have fallen short.

This is one of the reasons I question the bible. Idiotic rules like this. How can they possibly be a divine mandate? Is God so illogical as to demand total faith from people who may have been raised to question everything? Is one expected to believe solely based on the logic of "the bible says so"? Would God damn someone to eternal torment for not throwing logic and reason to the wind?

I feel that, if he exists, he gave us this wonderful gift called free thinking. We should not be damned for using it. Bad deeds are a different story...

shukrallah
04-29-2003, 12:05 AM
ur missing the point!

We have all sinned, so none of us diserve to go to Heaven, but:


John 3:16-21- "God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son so that whoever believes in him may not be lost, but have eternal life. God did not send his Son into the world to judge the world guilty, but to save the world through him. People who believe in God's Son are not to be judged guilty. Those who do not believe have already been judged guilty, because they have not believed in God's one and only Son. They are judged by this fact: The Light has come into the world, but they did not want light. They wanted darkness, because they were doing evil things. All who do evil hate the light and will not come to the light, because it will show all the evil things they do. But those who who follow the true way come to the light, and it shows that the things they do were done through God."

thats what i say to lots of people, its true and it makes sense.



I feel that, if he exists, he gave us this wonderful gift called free thinking. We should not be damned for using it. Bad deeds are a different story...

yeah, he wanted to c who would turn to him, or not, just like some one else said earlier.

This is one of the reasons I question the bible. Idiotic rules like this. How can they possibly be a divine mandate? Is God so illogical as to demand total faith from people who may have been raised to question everything? Is one expected to believe solely based on the logic of "the bible says so"? Would God damn someone to eternal torment for not throwing logic and reason to the wind?

God said it, and it was done. If God tells the world to blow up, it will. The bible is God's word. like ive said before, million times:

if you say the bible isnt true, then you are calling God a liar.

what logic has anyone discovered that has proven the bible wrong???? i dont know of any.

-lukeskywalker1

"Scriptures quoted from The Holy Bible, New Century Version,
copyright (C) 1987, 1988, 1991 by Word Publishing, Dallas, Texas
75039. Used by permission."

Reborn Outcast
04-29-2003, 12:21 AM
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
no, u have to accept Jesus Christ as your personnel savior. the bible syas somewhere (cant remember where) the only way to the Father is through the Son. you dont nned good deeds, they are extra.

The only qualms I have about this thing you said is this. Good deeds ARE part of it aswell as accepting Jesus. God tells us to live our life for Him, so doesnt that mean that we do good deeds? People who sin and think that if they just ask God for forgiveness and that they can get away with anything when they do that are wrong. God also requires service in His name.

shukrallah
04-29-2003, 12:57 AM
i know that, but good deeds alone wont get you into heaven, you have to have Christ, or it doesnt matter how many good deeds you have done.

ShockV1.89
04-29-2003, 01:00 AM
if you say the bible isnt true, then you are calling God a liar.

I dont say it's untrue. I question it. One of the big reasons I question it is because it was written by man, who is inherently fallable and prone to lie. Furthermore, even if the original authors were being divinely inspired (I will never deny the possibility), then who is to say that others did not later change what was written down? As the Muse said in Dogma... "I have absolutley no say in the editorial process..." (For those of you who dont know, the Muse was portrayed as the spirit who divinely inspired people to write the bible. She was lamenting the sexually biased spin that was put on it by others after she inspired it to be written).

I would never, ever call God a liar. I'm not so hesitant to do it to a human being. And who wrote the bible? Men who CLAIMED they were being divinely inspired. I'm more inclined to question them.

shukrallah
04-29-2003, 01:23 AM
1) God went through men to write the bible, therefore, its God's word.
2) REVELATION 22:18-19 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy in this book: If anyone adds anything to these words, God will add that person to the disasters written about in this book. And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take that one's share of the tree of life and of the holy city, which are written about in this book.

so if someone has changed the bible, well... i feel sorry for them.


another thing: I didnt actually mean u, about that liar thing, im just saying if you were, then thats what you were doing.

-lukeskywalker1

"Scriptures quoted from The Holy Bible, New Century Version,
copyright (C) 1987, 1988, 1991 by Word Publishing, Dallas, Texas
75039. Used by permission."

ShockV1.89
04-29-2003, 01:41 AM
1) God went through men to write the bible, therefore, its God's word.

Suppose I were to write a new book of the bible, which made sweeping changes. Sort of like a New New Testament. I said to you "God spoke to me and had me write all this down, and told me that I am to spread the word that this is how we are to live now!"

Would you believe me?

Now apply the same thinking to the original authors. Why should they be any different?

Oh, and that quote from revelations? I think it was referring to the book of revelations alone, and not necessarily the entire bible.

munik
04-29-2003, 03:19 AM
Now, time for some fun with semantics!

Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
As for purgatory, there is no purgatory, God said you either make it, or you dont, we have our chance now!Purgatory is a catholic belief, true because it is dogma. Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
We have all sinned, so none of us diserve to go to HeavenOriginal sin is also a catholic belief, once again true because it is dogma.Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
if you say the bible isnt true, then you are calling God a liar.Quoted for reference.Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
God went through men to write the bible, therefore, its God's word.And now we get to the point. The Pope is gods mouthpiece, therefore the dogma he spews out is the word of god, and invaribly true. So, if you were to say that purgatory wasn't true, and you did say that, then you would be calling god a liar. Because god went through the Pope to speak of dogmatic things.

Unless of course you aren't catholic, in which case you are entitled to call that sect of gods cult liars. Because if they don't believe what you believe, they are wrong. Even though you pick and choose from their beliefs, you recognize original sin, but not purgatory.

ShockV1.89
04-29-2003, 10:27 AM
Damnit! Now he's gonna ignore my post, I just know it! :mad:

;)

Kurgan
04-29-2003, 02:13 PM
Of course we Catholics believe that Purgatory exists, based on Christian tradition, not just what the current Pope says.

Also, the Pope only speaks infallibly when he speaks "Ex Cathedra" ie: in his official capacity as Bishop of the Whole Church in communion with the other Bishops, on matters of faith and morals.

Which doesn't mean a thing if you aren't Catholic, of course.


As to the whole accepting Christ thing is concerned. Yes, most Christians believe that this is necessary for salvation. Where we differ is how it works.

Where we run into problems (not only with good people who were just not convinced that Jesus was the Son of God who died for their sins) is when we have people who say, through no fault of their own, never heard of Jesus Christ, and therefore had no chance to accept him (there are people like this, believe it or not, and not just infants) including those who died before Jesus came to earth.

Then on the other hand you have people who had Christ preached to them, but the preacher (by their bad example or misinterpretation of Christ's message) turned that person AWAY from it, would it still be their fault? Surely there is more responsibility on the person preaching it than on the listener. If you know in your heart that Jesus is the way, but refuse it, that's a problem, but if you don't know that Jesus is the way, or have been given a distorted view of it, how can you possibly make a rational choice to follow it?

A Catholic explanation would be that, Jesus came to earth to show us how to live, and his death opened the gates of heaven, etc. but that if all that was keeping a person from heaven was acceptance of Christ, and they had no chance on earth, they could be "baptized by desire" and truly recieve Christ sometime after death (in Purgatory perhaps), thus making them worthy of entrance into heaven.

Of course if you are a wicked, wicked person, and Christ's message would be lost on you anyway, you're probably in trouble either way.

There is a great story (implied in the Bible but not actually told) in tradition that Jesus went to "hades" (not hell literally, but the resting place of the dead... where souls went before heaven) to reveal himself in his glory to those who had died before his resurrection. Thus they had a chance to get into heaven (something Dante seems to forget about in his Divine Comedy, an otherwise very interesting trilogy).

This notion is motivated by the belief in a merciful God who would not punish someone unfairly.

For a nice argument in favor of purgatory, check out this site:
http://catholicoutlook.com/objpurg.html

C'jais
04-29-2003, 05:37 PM
As for the age-old "You can't add to the Bible"-argument, which so many protestants love using against Catholics:

Catholocism appeared when the "Bible" as we know it today was still a bunch of loose, unedited papers and documents. They weren't collected and cropped together until later on. Thus, Catholocism isn't based on an edited Bible, but in fact, on an un-edited version.

The Prostestants fall to their own argument, in this case.

C'jais
04-29-2003, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
1) God went through men to write the bible, therefore, its God's word.

No, you don't know that for sure. You believe this, and this is why religion must be taken on faith.

Who wrote this? Man did. Man wrote the Bible. Man is corruptable, and the man who wrote or edited the Bible could have other intentions in mind. Again, seeing as most rulers have tried to use religion as a useful tool, it should come as no surprise that you have to take this little tidbit on faith alone.

All religions have been subjected to this. Even Buddhism, as harmless as it sounds, have been militant and used for keeping slaves. Tibetan Buddhism was once a self-righteous theocracy that helped keeping people in serfdom. Much like Christianity - priests found "biblical evidence" that black slaves really didn't deserve better. But I think this is more an issue with Man's corruptability, again. If your house has been burned to ashes, who's to blame - the fire (religion) or the guy wielding a flamethrower (a priest)?

so if someone has changed the bible, well... i feel sorry for them.

I find it hard to believe that God would resort to such blunt threats in order to "persuade" people.

Lost Welshman
04-29-2003, 06:08 PM
I did a very interesting Laypersons guide on Deat, Dying and the Afterlife, for my English exam. It got me a high B grade, which is quite good I suppose.

It was really funny but also had some interesting points in it. I'll give you a sort of preview of it:

' Death, such a cold word. It's not surprising that it is extremely underated. Death isn't all bad. You get to do it lying down, you dont have to worry about paying taxes. If you wan't a more funfilled afterlive then you'll have to have led a good life, not impeccably good, but a nice life. If you did some bad stuff then you'll probably end up in hell, but It can't be that bad. Afterall, noone came back to complain.'

Not an amazing extract but still.

All this talk of death has got me upset, my work starts in a few minutes.

*Gets out Scythe*

See ya around.

shukrallah
04-29-2003, 08:57 PM
Originally posted by ShockV1.89

Oh, and that quote from revelations? I think it was referring to the book of revelations alone, and not necessarily the entire bible.


You might have a point there, but still, im not going to take any chances. I people did make stuff up and put it in the bible, then, they will suffer for what they have done, like Adam and Eve, because of them, millions of people could go to Hell, just because of there 1 sin.



I find it hard to believe that God would resort to such blunt threats in order to "persuade" people.


but wouldnt they be responsable for misleading millions of people, say God made some rules then someone else wrote junk down (which i cant see that, that happend) then they would be responsable for screwing everything up.

No, you don't know that for sure. You believe this, and this is why religion must be taken on faith.


yeah, true, but there were times in the bible when God said go wirte what i say on a scroll, so i think its true. the old testament seems like a history and law book to me, it teaches about Israel's wars, slavery, things like that, and also about the laws God gave to Moses.

the New Testement was books about Jesus' life, and letters the apostles wrote to developing churches after Christ's death and resurection. in the beginning of most books, someone, like Paul, or Timothy, or Peter said soemthing like from Paul a follower of Jesus Christ (somerthing like that)

I believe the Holy Spirit went through those men to write those letters.