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View Full Version : JA needs to be dark and moody...


happydan
04-22-2003, 04:19 PM
they should take ESB as influence for the style. lots of darkness with just the saber glow showing, and maybe flickering lights... what do you guys think?

coupes.
04-22-2003, 04:39 PM
i agree, some of the levels should be very dark.
One of the screens actually shows a level which is kinda like a temple at night, looks really cool. i'm really looking foward to play this level

Prime
04-22-2003, 04:46 PM
I don't mind dark levels and ESB atmosphere, but it shouldnt' be too moody. Star Wars is a popcorn movie after all.

happydan
04-22-2003, 04:53 PM
i agree that starwars was, but ESB was almost a tim burton standard of dark. and i think we should prepare (and i hope) for a very dark movie for ep3. i think its about time that games try to evoke the same emotions as movies are capable of... and it shouldnt be too hard to achieve that with the richness of the star wars universe. (do you remember the first time you travelled in the railcar in HL? :D )

boinga1
04-22-2003, 06:35 PM
Well....I don't mind some darkness, but I would get sick of running around level after level through dark places, using Goggle to see and all.....there need to be some fairly "normal" planets, ie. most jedi operate in the day.

Blademaster_109
04-22-2003, 07:06 PM
yeah like in a cave

taekwondo joe
04-22-2003, 08:51 PM
i think it should be dark as far story, bad guys, and good guy getting there butts handed to em, like in "Empire Strikes Back" that kinda dark, but as far as lighting, i prefere it to be day, bright, i like seeing every thing, and my monitor is old so i have to turn brightness up high any way

Prime
04-23-2003, 01:32 PM
Yes, the darkness should be the mood, not the lighting :)

happydan
04-23-2003, 01:37 PM
i guess... but just remember anakin vs dooku, or the carbon chamber! dark and moody. maybe the showdown should be like that? like the skaarj scene in unreal?

taekwondo joe
04-23-2003, 02:49 PM
thats cool witht he sabers and all, but i say let there be light, as far as seeing is conserned, it will be a dark game for me, since i will turn to th dark side :dev6:

happydan
04-23-2003, 02:50 PM
hahaha. good point.

Pedro The Hutt
04-23-2003, 03:07 PM
They could try to make the lightsaber an active lightsource again like it was in JK, rather than giving things that already have light shining on them a coloured hue.

JaledDur
04-24-2003, 06:11 AM
Originally posted by Prime
I don't mind dark levels and ESB atmosphere, but it shouldnt' be too moody. Star Wars is a popcorn movie after all.

*nod* mmmm popcorn

Prime
04-24-2003, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by happydan
i guess... but just remember anakin vs dooku, or the carbon chamber! dark and moody. Actually, I found this pretty annoying. The light from the sabers was cool, but I didn't like not being able to really see what was really going on. Besides, give me the Obi-wan/Darth Maul fight any day! :)

happydan
04-24-2003, 01:43 PM
j'accuse. you are no true fan, mr prime.
/me prods prime in the shoulder. ;)
its a toss-up between dooku vs anakin, the carbon chamber and obi vs jango for me...

HertogJan
04-24-2003, 03:10 PM
Dark & Moody, hmm... Well I'd rather have the story to be dark and the environments to be moody :D The story must be dark and full of conspiracies (hmm I think I'm addicted to Deus Ex ;)), but the environments (=maps) not too dark, but with great atmosphere, e.g. very Star Wars like :) Great halls and the like.

taekwondo joe
04-24-2003, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by HertogJan
Dark & Moody, hmm... Well I'd rather have the story to be dark and the environments to be moody :D The story must be dark and full of conspiracies (hmm I think I'm addicted to Deus Ex ;)), but the environments (=maps) not too dark, but with great atmosphere, e.g. very Star Wars like :) Great halls and the like. there ya go, thats what i be saying, and yeah, deus ex is a great game!

HertogJan
04-24-2003, 03:49 PM
Wrong, Deus Ex is the best game ever ;) Well best singleplayer anyway :)

BETTER THAN JEDI KNIGHT??

Yes... better than JK ;)

Prime
04-24-2003, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by happydan
j'accuse. you are no true fan, mr prime.
/me prods prime in the shoulder. ;)
its a toss-up between dooku vs anakin, the carbon chamber and obi vs jango for me... You dare challange me?? :)

Well, if we are going to throw the original trilogy into the mix, I'll take Vader vs. Luke parts I and II anytime. Sure, the "technical" skill wasn't as good, but the mood, characters, and story-altering outcomes were by far the best.

/me rubs shoulder poked by happydan

happydan
04-24-2003, 06:12 PM
ok, i guess dark story and moody environments was what i was getting at... but a darkened jedi duel, maybe in a factory woth sparks everywhere, or a crumbling imperial outpost... in JK2, the lights always seem the last thing to fail!

Iblis Reborn
04-24-2003, 06:22 PM
you gotta have a little of everything
the dark moody places the bright busy places and the semi dark seemingly normal ambush places
you need it all :)

StormHammer
04-26-2003, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by Iblis Reborn
you gotta have a little of everything
the dark moody places the bright busy places and the semi dark seemingly normal ambush places
you need it all :)

I have to agree with this. We don't really know what SP is going to be like...but we know there will be a variety of missions in a variety of locations. I don't think the theme should be continuously dark and moody. If there is an underlying arc to the storyline then those missions could potentially be darker in nature and lighting to add weight to whatever nefarious plots are unfolding. Although ESB had a darker mood, it still had some light and airy locations. Without seeing lighter areas, you'll have no contrast to make the darker regions even more sinister.

I think it was TheBlueFlamingo in one of the other threads who said that Darth Vader looked far more imposing a figure on Bespin, because he was all black in a white room. That sort of thing has a great visual impact that can add a lot of weight to the mood, in spite of the airy surroundings.

So I hope they go for a good mix, and work in those contrasts between light and dark in terms of lighting and design - while building the atmosphere through the story...

Prime
04-27-2003, 02:51 AM
Originally posted by StormHammer
I think it was TheBlueFlamingo in one of the other threads who said that Darth Vader looked far more imposing a figure on Bespin, because he was all black in a white room. That sort of thing has a great visual impact that can add a lot of weight to the mood, in spite of the airy surroundings. This is an excellent point. In those locations Vader was in such great contrast with his surroundings. You could hardly make out the details of his suit. It just made him seem so much more evil...

JDKnite188
04-29-2003, 11:54 PM
Originally posted by HertogJan
Dark & Moody, hmm... Well I'd rather have the story to be dark and the environments to be moody :D The story must be dark and full of conspiracies (hmm I think I'm addicted to Deus Ex ;)), but the environments (=maps) not too dark, but with great atmosphere, e.g. very Star Wars like :) Great halls and the like.

"Addicted to Deus Ex". That is something I can admit to.

I don't know about darkness. It would be appropriate in some places. The whole game should be moody though. If it was excitement or fear or whatever the mood, it should be amplified!

Emon
04-30-2003, 12:03 AM
Dark is not appropriate for all settings, therefor it should not always be used. Overusing this sucks. A lot.

Solbe M'ko
05-06-2003, 10:42 PM
-1- "Darkness" is lacking from the SW of today. Look at episode 2, it's just a good times adventure 90% of the time (maybe the poor acting during "emotional" parts added to this).
-2- Atmosphere is most important. It has to be "real".
-3- I think that a level could/should start out normal, several stormtroopers, etc. then, as the plot is revealed the level could become more moody, both story-wise and in the actual ambience (lights). An artistic transition would be nice. I found that in JO the two most "dark" parts were placed in bad parts of the map. When you think Jan is dead, the place is still well lit and relatively unchanged. When you face Desann the last time, the game actually get cheerier (trees, sunlight, etc.) so the last battle seemed cheapened. In fact, the first time I beat JO, I was at a friends and we both really couldn't understand what was going on. "That can't be IT." Then the credits rolled by. The ending ruined all of the atmosphere created by Nar Shadaa/the Doomhammer/the outside Yavin mission.

Prime
05-07-2003, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by Solbe M'ko
-1- "Darkness" is lacking from the SW of today. Look at episode 2, it's just a good times adventure 90% of the time... You mean apart from the start of a galactic civil war, the rise of a tyrant, and the beginning of the end for the Jedi order? Such good times :)

HertogJan
05-07-2003, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by Prime
You mean apart from the start of a galactic civil war, the rise of a tyrant, and the beginning of the end for the Jedi order? Such good times :)

LOL!! No the story is dark allright, and I really enjoyed the moments where Anakin slaughtered the Tuskens, and where you saw the evil Emperor (well supreme chancellor at the time) Palpatine standing, looking at all the clones preparing for war... Moments never to be forgotten, classic already!!

But yeah, those moments were scarse in EPII (and especially EPI). It's really not the story though, but the setting and ambience. There should be more dark places to fight, places that are more evil :) The fights with Vader etc. were great because of the setting...

Solbe M'ko
05-07-2003, 08:31 PM
Yeah, it's not the story, it's how the story was told.

I also found that there was WAY too much CG, but that's going off topic.

StormHammer
05-07-2003, 08:43 PM
Originally posted by HertogJan
But yeah, those moments were scarse in EPII (and especially EPI). It's really not the story though, but the setting and ambience. There should be more dark places to fight, places that are more evil :) The fights with Vader etc. were great because of the setting...

I tend to agree. I think they did a better job with setting and ambience in EpII than in EpI to be honest...from the night-time setting of the assassin bugs in Padme's quarters and the resulting chase...to the contrasts on Kamino, and the grandiose spires on Geonosis.

Anyway...who can forget the Luke/Vader fight in ESB, that just kept moving from location to location, and each more dangerous than the last? In this respect I agree with Solbe M'ko...the final conflict of the game needs a great setting to showcase the fight of good against evil...or evil against good. The levels where you chased and finally confronted Desann in JO didn't seem dark or atmospheric enough, considering the depths of the temple were supposed to be a focal point for Sith energy. When I look back at the graphic novels of the Tales Of The Jedi, where the ancient Massassi temple featured, it seemed a far darker and more forbidding place. Even Dromuund Kaas in MotS was a starker, mustier place filled with ancient malice.

Judging by the screenies of the Rodian and the caverns, with those statues, it looks like Raven are going back to a similar eerie feel. BTW...I'd love to see those lights go out one by one, and plunge you into semi-darkness... :D In fact, destructable light sources would go a long way to switching moods in the same locations...

Emon
05-09-2003, 12:33 AM
Dark and atmospheric isn't the only way to get a good saber fight. Any spectacular location can make a duel rediculously more fun.

Solbe M'ko
05-09-2003, 01:16 AM
What does that have to do with anything?

HertogJan
05-09-2003, 08:36 AM
Yeah but good locations for a saber fight are usually dark places :) It just adds something to it... I really like the ESB fight at the carbon freezing chamber. The Fight between Anakin and Dooku in EPII had a nice touch though; a dark setting with the lightsabers casting light on their faces, that was really great!

BTW, in the MP version of the yavin_final map (I don't know for sure if it was the same in the SP version) you have music that sounds a lot the same as the final fight in RotJ, that adds to the mood too!

StormHammer
05-09-2003, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by HertogJan


BTW, in the MP version of the yavin_final map (I don't know for sure if it was the same in the SP version) you have music that sounds a lot the same as the final fight in RotJ, that adds to the mood too!

An excellent point. :thumbsup: The right kind of music to set the right kind of mood is essential, IMHO. Music and sound in general is so important for setting a scene...and I hope they get the score and ambient sounds right for every situation in JA. I'm not sure I want to hear the same snippets from the SW soundtracks recycled over and over, though...while it's nice to have to place you firmly in the SW universe, I hope they are looking at some original scores in the same style that can convey the proper moods throughout the game.

Prime
05-09-2003, 12:40 PM
I always get jazzed when those Star Wars tracks come on and I start chopping baddies. Now that's atmosphere!

HertogJan
05-09-2003, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by Prime
I always get jazzed when those Star Wars tracks come on and I start chopping baddies. Now that's atmosphere!


I'm a big fan of the Imperial March :) When you heard it in JO, you knew there was going to be some action :D But also the peaceful starwars melody (you know which one I'm talking about I'm sure) got you in the right mood :D

taekwondo joe
05-09-2003, 10:01 PM
if you want a dark game as far as lighting, and mood, go for return to castle wolfenstein, thats a dark game in every since of the word.

and the music sets the mood, yes, jk2 had it going on for that

Master_Payne
05-09-2003, 10:18 PM
I've seen a pic of a rodian in front of a kind of temple in dark blue tones if I remember, that's enought for me, as well as the pics of the bad guys in a similar location, just hopes the music comes correctly this time, it was way too happy while fighting desann, I prefer "the emperor's death" from ROTJ, is also heard when anakin kills the tuskens, its the darker theme of all ("the imperial march" wasn't dark, it resembles military power, no evilness but it's really cool too.) maybe "light of the force" (the one heard in Vader's... sorry my mistake, Anakins funeral pyre) gives a nice atmosphere.

Solbe M'ko
05-10-2003, 02:07 AM
I must disagree. Those tunes were, to my mind, reserved for the skywalkers. They symbolize the whole evil vs. good, balance motif, and I don't think that they would fit in a game where you mow down stormtroopers, etc.

StormHammer
05-10-2003, 08:38 AM
Originally posted by Solbe M'ko
They symbolize the whole evil vs. good, balance motif, and I don't think that they would fit in a game where you mow down stormtroopers, etc.

Er...okay...do you have information to which the rest of us have no access? Because I have not seen a single Stormtrooper in any of the screenshots released so far. I actually hope that trend continues for this game, because we've had the lion's share of Imperial entanglements so far...

happydan
05-10-2003, 01:09 PM
as far as music goes, i feel the ep2 ost is by far the moodiest. melding DotF with imperial march in "return to tatooine" was genius. IMO, they should allow the player to be part of "cutscenes" like HL, instead fo the static scenes in JO. even if they force the player to go 3rd person to give the impression of watching the scene.

as far as the final showdown goes, it would be nice to have something like the carbon freeze scene where the big bad dude has AI that specifically attempts to lead the player down a specific route, either through deception, or force, or just a good ole chase...

Master_Payne
05-10-2003, 10:31 PM
Originally posted by Solbe M'ko
I must disagree. Those tunes were, to my mind, reserved for the skywalkers. They symbolize the whole evil vs. good, balance motif, and I don't think that they would fit in a game where you mow down stormtroopers, etc.
I don't think JA will feature new music, JO didn't.
but JK has good themes.

Indy4
05-11-2003, 10:45 AM
Lets play at a Sith planet like Korriban

Prime
05-11-2003, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by Master_Payne
I don't think JA will feature new music, JO didn't.
but JK has good themes. As long as it has the John Williams mainstays, I'll be happy :)

Solbe M'ko
05-11-2003, 02:51 PM
Fo' Sho'!
Although it would be unlikely, I wouldn't be surprised if Lucasarts started using other music (shudder).

Prime
05-11-2003, 08:53 PM
Originally posted by Solbe M'ko
Fo' Sho'!
Although it would be unlikely, I wouldn't be surprised if Lucasarts started using other music (shudder). Why? :confused:

It seems that Lucasarts is pretty good for supplying music and sound effects straight from the films.

Solbe M'ko
05-12-2003, 09:44 PM
If I'm not pessimistic, who will be?

-PS- Off topic: Do you prefer the american Imperial officers from ANH or the cool british officers from RotJ?

StormHammer
05-12-2003, 10:07 PM
Originally posted by Solbe M'ko
-PS- Off topic: Do you prefer the american Imperial officers from ANH or the cool british officers from RotJ?

Erm...which officers would those be in ANH? :confused: You see, a very large proportion of the cast was made up of Brits...but for some of the roles they either dubbed them with American accents (like the Bartender in the Cantina), or the actors themselves used some American accents. To be honest, I can't recall very many American accents among the mint Imperials. But then...I haven't watched ANH for a while...

[Michael Caine voice]Not a lot of people know that.[/Michael Caine voice]

Anyway...back on topic...I want some Williams music, and some original stuff, but mainly I want it to change seamlessly dependent on the setting and mood. They did a good job in JO (mostly), so I'm sure they'll do a good job with JA.

Prime
05-13-2003, 12:40 AM
Originally posted by StormHammer
Erm...which officers would those be in ANH? :confused: Yeah, I thought they were all British.

Solbe M'ko
05-13-2003, 12:45 AM
Didn't know that about the accents. But in ANH some of the Imps are clearly using american accents, while in RotJ they all have cool British accents; Jerjerrod was an awesome character in RotJ, all snivelly and such...:deathii:

Anywho, the seamless transition is a good aspect, but I find that it sometimes is misleading or takes away from the game. For example, you walk along and some sinister, but slow, music is in the background, then you silently sneak up and behead a stormtrooper, and this loud music starts booming like the world is going to end. Then it stops, and starts the other song from the beginning. Not cool. I'm not sure, but I think that was in Rogue Squadron for the N64. It was a pain, because the music would come to a good part and then restart. But that game didn't have good music anyway...

Pedro The Hutt
05-13-2003, 04:16 PM
It was all..... midi-ish... on the N64 I could understand that but for the PC version they could've switched to more.. orchestrated music, with some actual instruments @@ heck they could have ripped it straight from the soundtracks for all I care lol.(actually that might be a great thing )

Solbe M'ko
05-13-2003, 08:33 PM
Yeah, I played the PC version and it was considerably worse than the N64 version, considering the limitations on the 64.

But ANYWAY, the mood should build itself like it does in the movies. In ESB, the begining was very different from the end; it developed. In JO, the mood started out pretty weak and didn't change.

Prime
05-14-2003, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by Solbe M'ko
In ESB, the begining was very different from the end... Was it really though. It starts out on a down note when Luke get's hurt and the Rebels are defeated at the Battle of Hoth, and ends on a down note with the capture of Han and the Vader defeating Luke. The mood seems pretty dark the whole way through to me.

Blamer
05-17-2003, 11:18 PM
Actually, the old DOS versions of TIE Fighter had, by far the best music of any Star Wars game, simply because they had to use MIDI instrumentation. They coudn't rip John Williams' recordings and call it good, they got a couple guys to write a MIDI score for the game that expanded on the basic Star Wars themes and also provided room for their own creativity. The result was actual game music that you could groove to while you blasting rebels into oblivion. Heck, I converted the inflight music GMID files to MIDI and it still sounds good, it's a lot better than listening to John Williams for the eight thousandth time. Movie soundtracks are for movies, and they are written late into the movie's production so that the mood of the music coincides with the mood and events in the movie. Movie music is not game music.

Jedi Knight had the second best score of all Star Wars games, because they heavily modified and spliced around the original Star Wars soundtrack recordings. They also used selections that were actually appropriate as mood music for the game. Then, they selected specific CD tracks for each level that actually enhanced the mood and feel for that specific level. Remember the dark, yet grandiose themes that played when you fought on Nar Shaddaa? On Sulon you get more of an "adventous" theme that went great with the levels. When you infiltrated an Imperial base, you got low-key, dark, moody music that amplified the tension. When I fought Maw, the music sent chills up my spine, they selected exactly the right part of the Star Wars music for that fight. Same thing for the other duels.

Dark Forces comes in third, the soundtrack had a few moments of genius but they emulated Williams too closely for MIDI.

I would say that they need to start with the music when it comes to making Jedi Academy more moody. They didn't do a bad job in Jedi Outcast, but they should put more effort into it...considering that Raven's competitors hire people to write and record new music. I feel like they said "this is a slow level, so let's stick a slow song in...here's an imperial base, find some song with the imperial theme...this is a combat heavy level, get a fast song." Spend a while trying to figure out what song works best with each level. I don't want to hear a zillion trumpets when I'm trying to play a game. For God's sake, wipe that multiplayer main menu theme from every hard drive in Raven and incinerate whatever CD they ripped it from. On your typical "base" levels, Jedi Knight used music that was predominantly rhythm and strings...brass gave the music a punch every so often to keep it moving and dramatic. Hey, guess what, that's what good game music sounds like. Jedi Knight's exception to this rule was during boss sequences, which brings me to my next point:

Good characterization will work wonders in JK3. JK1 worked hard to make you care about the heroes and villians...when I killed Fyyar in JK2 I had more of a feeling of "What the hell was that?" Tavion was halfway there, but since the encounter was used is a device to make Kyle look for Jan, it ended up being pretty bland. They did their best (I guess) in developing Desann, but I coudn't bring myself to care whether or not Barney killed Jan or not, especially since I knew this was a LucasArts game and there was no way in hell they would kill off Jan. Reelo...eh, I say they did a pretty good job of developing him as a minor boss. Again, the way you killed him didn't help..."Oh whoops, here's a lot of guys...*blam blam blam*...I guess that one guy was supposed to be reelo." Eh, I don't even remember whether I killed him or if he escaped somehow.

Now, of course, we knew that the dark jedi couldn't succeed in JK1 for the storyline to progress...but there was still an element of risk and suspense, because you were the one responsible for stopping them...and THEN there was the factor that you could always fall to the dark side.

I'll stop writing now, since no one will read this post...the moral of the story is that they need to go back to the old school, Jedi Knight style of moodiness, plot development, and soundtrack composition. Jedi Outcast just felt too freakin' happy.

Solbe M'ko
05-17-2003, 11:54 PM
:rolleyes: No comment.