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View Full Version : I want a map system! (feature from past DF games)


jesseg88
04-26-2003, 06:31 PM
Read title. It would be like the kind in DF and JK. It was an important feature that was missing in JK2. Dynamic brushes (such as doors, bobbers, rotators) would be yellow like in DF and the map would fade in to darkness to show height like in JK. It is very helpful when I'm lost.

StormHammer
04-26-2003, 07:35 PM
I voted yes. Although I didn't really get lost in JO, in either SP or MP, I think they should bring back some kind of overhead map view so that it is easier to see where team-mates in MP are located on particular maps. It can get a bit annoying running around trying to find someone to fight when there are not very many people on a server - particularly if a team-mate needs help.

I know that some people became confused and lost in JO's SP, and were frustrated by it, so it wouldn't hurt to bring back a system where you can at least see the parts of a level where you've been, and get some indication of where you haven't been.

HertogJan
04-26-2003, 08:26 PM
I don't really care! I hope you don't need to use the map in the levels. In fact, I never used the map in JK :rolleyes: And I sure didn't need one in JO either!

boinga1
04-27-2003, 02:13 AM
I don't care.

Iblis Reborn
04-27-2003, 06:17 AM
maps can be usefull
especially if you can see your team mates on it like stormy said
it would have to be overlaid onto the screen and not just totally switching to a map though
this way you can still see where your going while trying to help out your buddies

HertogJan
04-27-2003, 07:17 AM
Originally posted by Iblis Reborn
maps can be usefull
especially if you can see your team mates on it like stormy said
it would have to be overlaid onto the screen and not just totally switching to a map though
this way you can still see where your going while trying to help out your buddies

Hmm no, in that case I'd rather have a radar...

Toa Tahu
04-27-2003, 09:12 AM
I never needed a map but I guess if it's useful then it should be added.

But why does the poll read:
Yes(Why?)
No(Why not?)

Which one do I vote in order to contribute to including a map system?O_o

StormHammer
04-27-2003, 10:54 AM
Originally posted by Toa Tahu
I never needed a map but I guess if it's useful then it should be added.

But why does the poll read:
Yes(Why?)
No(Why not?)

Which one do I vote in order to contribute to including a map system?O_o

That just means if you vote one way or the other to explain why you voted that way. ;)

HertogJan...yes, I agree, a radar would also do the job very well. Having a little circle or something in a corner of the screen with dots to show the relative position of your team-mates etc, would do just as well. It might even be better, because on a level that has a lot of vertical action going on, an overhead overlay map wouldn't be able to show you how high your team-mates are. The alternative to that is a 3D holographic representation (similar to a radar) that shows in more detail the structure of the level, and where your team-members are positioned. That could work very well. :thumbsup:

taekwondo joe
04-27-2003, 12:43 PM
i dont care either way, i never used the map in jk or df

Prime
04-27-2003, 02:28 PM
I liked the map in JK, and I think it would be nice to have in JA. I especially liked to use it with the force seeing in JK. Then you could detect if there where people around you, even behind walls and such.

HertogJan
04-27-2003, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by Prime
I liked the map in JK, and I think it would be nice to have in JA. I especially liked to use it with the force seeing in JK. Then you could detect if there where people around you, even behind walls and such.

Yeah that would be nice in MP :rolleyes: ;) :p

But c'mon, seriously, did you ever felt the need for a map in either JK or JO??

Blademaster_109
04-27-2003, 04:47 PM
i don't want one really because i like to be surprised when i turn the corner. not know there will be a group of storm troopers and i can throw a termal grenade and kill them in one hit.

Emon
04-27-2003, 08:47 PM
Overlay maps suck big time, the only good maps are actual maps, like seen in Thief. Deus Ex gave the player photos of landmarks to help them figure out where they were in those massive levels.

Creating an overhead map feature from the map itself would be hellish. You can't use the BSP to create it on the fly since the BSP will be a mess of leaf nodes and portals, and the original map file would be in brush form, which can be very misleading. They'd have to create overlay maps by hand, which would be horribly inaccurate.

taekwondo joe
04-27-2003, 11:02 PM
Originally posted by Emon
Overlay maps suck big time, the only good maps are actual maps, like seen in Thief. Deus Ex gave the player photos of landmarks to help them figure out where they were in those massive levels.

Creating an overhead map feature from the map itself would be hellish. You can't use the BSP to create it on the fly since the BSP will be a mess of leaf nodes and portals, and the original map file would be in brush form, which can be very misleading. They'd have to create overlay maps by hand, which would be horribly inaccurate. the deus ex version with the pics was really cool, and very helpfull

Blademaster_109
04-27-2003, 11:32 PM
Originally posted by taekwondo joe
the deus ex version with the pics was really cool, and very helpfull i agree with u

Prime
04-28-2003, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by HertogJan
But c'mon, seriously, did you ever felt the need for a map in either JK or JO?? I never felt I needed it, but in JK I thought it was a handy feature...

Taos
04-28-2003, 03:10 PM
I think for this game it might not be such a bad idea considering that there will be levels that aren't linear. You will need to do some searching and exploring and I think having some kind of map would be extremely helpful to you.

I don't know how it would work, maybe you would have to find the map in [for example] a temple......anyways, I think it would be nice in those non-linear levels. :)

Master_Payne
04-28-2003, 04:53 PM
A map would be mice, but only if its a Metroid-ish map, that one that you can see only the places already visited or have to download it from somewhere before access, or get it from a npc, cause its really strange go to a planet, city or whatever eith a full detailed map, it makes the game really boring if you can see everything before it happens, but a progresive map is cool.

StormHammer
04-28-2003, 07:11 PM
Originally posted by Master_Payne
A map would be mice, but only if its a Metroid-ish map, that one that you can see only the places already visited or have to download it from somewhere before access, or get it from a npc, cause its really strange go to a planet, city or whatever eith a full detailed map, it makes the game really boring if you can see everything before it happens, but a progresive map is cool.

That's the kind of map I was talking about. One that only shows where you've been. :) Although I don't see a problem getting hold of some holographic blueprints to a particular building or something, to plan a route of attack...

Blademaster_109
04-28-2003, 08:09 PM
Originally posted by StormHammer
That's the kind of map I was talking about. One that only shows where you've been. :) Although I don't see a problem getting hold of some holographic blueprints to a particular building or something, to plan a route of attack...

What if you have to escape or something like that?? then that'd be stupid.

jesseg88
05-02-2003, 06:36 PM
Perhaps Raven should take a leaf out of ID Software's book and make a map system like the one in Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory.

acdcfanbill
05-03-2003, 12:04 AM
buf for MP an overlay map would be great, anyone remimber the overlay map in JK + Seeing? you could see everyone and items, their direction, it was useful!

Solbe M'ko
05-04-2003, 08:52 PM
The only use for the map in DF was that eater egg on the ice level. Damn that rabbit!

Mero Vilul
05-05-2003, 05:47 AM
Just put in a compass pointing at the current objective instead, if you know the direction it's far easier to find what you're looking for... And of course toggable so I don't need to get those directions... I like discovering things on my own and solving the puzzles as they come along...

I never used maps in any FPS game of this style... In MP it isn't a very good game for a map either, the action is to fast and jedi's move from point A to point B within seconds, and they die and respawn within seconds... It would just be a flashing madness on the map...

Prime
05-05-2003, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by Mero Vilul
Just put in a compass pointing at the current objective instead... I'd be happy with just a compass. Then you could just get your sense of direction and work from there.

HertogJan
05-05-2003, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by Prime
I'd be happy with just a compass. Then you could just get your sense of direction and work from there.

I'd rather have no compass... You are a Jedi, use the force ;)

No seriously, I don't need some sort of navigation device, unless Raven starts making really big ****ing worlds!

txa1265
05-05-2003, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by HertogJan
I'd rather have no compass... You are a Jedi, use the force ;)

No seriously, I don't need some sort of navigation device, unless Raven starts making really big ****ing worlds!

I agree ... I didn't like the compass in MoHAA most of the time - it was already linear enough. Too much direction and you start following the compass and forgettign to use your mind.

The only thing - there are places you should know, like the temple (like the HQ in Deus Ex), and you should be made to explore it early on if you'll need to know it later. There are places you should have no clue about, and perhaps there will be some Force indicator for that.

Mike

Agen
05-05-2003, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by acdcfanbill
buf for MP an overlay map would be great, anyone remimber the overlay map in JK + Seeing? you could see everyone and items, their direction, it was useful!
It was damn brilliant... That was the only reason people used the map (apart from sp) If you aren't going to be able to combine force seeing with it then there's no point in a map for me :)

Solbe M'ko
05-05-2003, 09:49 PM
I, for one, didn't find any navigation problems in JO (unlike in other FPS style games like SoF) and I doubt that there will be any really large open areas/mazes to get lost in.

Agen
05-05-2003, 10:17 PM
Well Raven are aiming for more jk1-like maps(or so they say) which means BIG maps.

Blademaster_109
05-05-2003, 10:30 PM
A good thing about not having a map system is that it adds suspense like when u'd walk down a dark hallway in jo and a shadow trooper would appear out of no wear.

Solbe M'ko
05-06-2003, 03:54 AM
Yes, but what about when you've cleared the level, found the keys, and have to look for that one door that you can't seem to find. Remember Descent? In that game a map was a necessesity. I think that a compass would be useful, but to give away enemy positions would suck. I think that your character should be able to feel "bad vibes" coming from the next room, but shouldn't be able to tell how many enemies are witing for him. In fact, with a system like that, the dark jedi would have and added stealth ability; they could "shut down" like the Rar sisters (I think) at the beginning of "Star by Star". Then when you entered a room you think is empty, a shadowtrooper could scare the hell out of you. Sorta like in halflife, but not as goofy (did anyone else notice that the monsters hung around in the stupidest spots?).

StormHammer
05-06-2003, 08:11 AM
Originally posted by Blademaster_109
A good thing about not having a map system is that it adds suspense like when u'd walk down a dark hallway in jo and a shadow trooper would appear out of no wear.

Why would a map system spoil that kind of suspense? In SP, it should only show the places you've already been, not where you are going, and not show any enemies or items on the level. I think it would prove useful for those who are inclined to get lost. For example, in JO's swamp level, a lot of people couldn't find the way out. I never got lost once in JO, so it doesn't really matter to me one way or the other if a map is included for SP.

I'm mostly concerned about being able to see the position of team-mates in MP on an overhead map with all locations revealed. :)

Kurgan
05-15-2003, 07:31 PM
A Map system should be added to JA (It probably won't, but hear me out).

Why?

Dark Forces had it.
Jedi Knight had it.
Mysteries of the Sith had it.
Jedi Outcast suddenly doesn't have it.


There's no logical reason to remove it. In FPS history, Wolfenstein3d didn't have a map (the game was pretty simple, and they probably didn't have the memory to spare to create one). Then Doom and Doom2 came out, they had maps.

Mapping meant you had to spend less time "lost" in the mazelike levels. It didn't gain any specific advantage in competative games, but in Cooperative games it helped immensley for keeping track of your teammates.

The only reason FPS games stopped having maps, is because Quake came out in 1996 (?) and didn't have one. Instead it just told you the number of kills you had (vs. number of monsters), secrets and time used up (IIRC).

Thus, mindlessly, all FPS games from that point on (with LEC games being notable exceptions, like Outlaws and JK/MotS)copied them (or used a quake based engine that lacked the map feature). Now we have Raven software (bless them), who have a great respect for Id's games and experience with their engines... going right along with the "no maps" bandwagon. Why??

Why did Id software choose to remove the mapping feature from Quake1? I'm assuming they did it to save memory. They also may have wished to increase the difficulty (and consequently the frustration) factor by forcing you to memorize the map as you go (or perhaps to conceal programming tricks like a level "hub" system).

I would argue that having a map system allows you the freedom to make the levels as large, complex, and confusing as you wish. It is also nice because if you save your game and come back several days or weeks later (and have forgotten the level) you don't have to play through the entire thing running around in circles to re-learn it.

In multiplayer of course, map use is great initially to help you learn a map (secret areas need not be shown of course) and to better keep track of buddies. JK used Force Seeing combined with the map to allow you to track enemy movements and even spot mine traps (on level 4). It was used intelligently.

Elite Force and Jedi Knight 2 are games set in high tech universes. You are usually on missions of espionage or tactical events where in the "real" universes of these games, the use of mapping technology (tricorder, satellite uplink, data pad, etc) would make sense, and be useful.

A map doesn't have to show the entire game world. It can show only the parts you've visited (the old "ball of string in the maze" idea), or it could show you the entire map, but have to be "obtained" from a hacked terminal or something later in a level.

Surely the Q3 engine isn't so limited that it can't put a simple 2d overlay of the level in a corner of the screen. JK even had a "Data pad" with a 3d rotatable display accessible in a menu outside the game, in addition to the DF1 style overlay map.

Thus, I argue, that if a simple map feature could be added to JA, it SHOULD. There is no rational reason not to, except to (annoyingly) inflate the difficulty.

Ditto on what was said about finding the "one stupid door" after the rest of the level had been completed. ; p

PS: The action in JK/MotS was usually faster than JK2, and a map worked great there. Its far more useful than just having glowing blobs through nearby walls.

Echuu Shen-Jon
05-24-2003, 09:31 AM
I think...I don't know! I haven't played any other games than JO! Wouldn't it be too easy?

If it should be there, I think, that you should download it from some kind of terminal or...something. It would be good, but it would also be bad!

HertogJan
05-24-2003, 10:37 AM
Why a map?? I NEVER felt the need for one in JO OR JK, and in JA we'll also have force foresight, which lets you see enemies behind walls etc. So we don't need a map; period :)

And using a map in a game has nothing to do with the engine. It's not that everyone just copies Quake; it's that games don't need a map. And they shouldn't need one either. Maps are only usefull in games with very big, open areas, JA isn't one of those games, so no map... JK wasn't such a game either, JO either...

Rumor
05-24-2003, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by Kurgan
A Map system should be added to JA (It probably won't, but hear me out).

Why?

Dark Forces had it.
Jedi Knight had it.
Mysteries of the Sith had it.
Jedi Outcast suddenly doesn't have it.


There's no logical reason to remove it.


have you taken the time to consider that the engine does not support progressive maps? notice those games were on a completely different engine than what JO is on, the quake 3 engine. none of the quake engines support map system such as that

/edit wups lol i just saw that you said that. but then if you said that then why are you complaining that they didn't include the feature when its not supported???

Echuu Shen-Jon
05-24-2003, 07:56 PM
I've just played the demo of MoTS (I now know, why they make a mod of DF to JO. It was made in 1995 :eek::eek::eek: ) I don't think I would use it, if it was integrated!

ToppDog
05-24-2003, 09:09 PM
I agree with StormHammer & Kurgan, maps are a cool idea. You could get maps as part of mission briefings when the intel is available; & if not, then you could have maps that are built progressively as you explore.

You could even have a feature where there is somehow a slight difference in colors or layout between the two, so that you can tell where you've actually been as you progress. This could also be very interesting if you are given a map as part of a mission briefing & you get there to find that everything is different. Nice twists!

I found that if the game supplies a progressive map, I go out of my way to explore everything, whereas without maps I'm usually just trying to complete the mission.

If they ever enable a mission planning feature for SP or MP, maps would be a necessity anyway.

Stormtrooper X
05-25-2003, 08:35 AM
JO wasn't scary. DF and JK were scarier, and felt more real. I remember in Mysteries of the Sith on the first level you had to walk through those fans, that was pretty scary and hard. Remember in DF on the first level you weren't sure where to go, but you had to move on because the stormtroopers would find you and kill you. Ooooh, I miss that.

Kurgan
05-25-2003, 08:54 AM
have you taken the time to consider that the engine does not support progressive maps? notice those games were on a completely different engine than what JO is on, the quake 3 engine. none of the quake engines support map system such as that

/edit wups lol i just saw that you said that. but then if you said that then why are you complaining that they didn't include the feature when its not supported???

I said it because they had access to the engine's code. With that kind of control you can do amazing things. For example Half Life... light years ahead of anything in Quake 2! I'm not expecting miracles, but surely a simple overlay is not too much to add into the game, even like others have suggested, in that it might be a complete map (as a guideline) or something.

They had the code, they could have (theoretically) added the feature. Why didn't they?

Lack of time? They wanted the game to be artificially more difficult? Laziness?

Or is it somehow impossible to do in the engine? Somehow I doubt it is...