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DadMad
04-27-2003, 01:27 PM
This is a First Room Alpha of my new 'Bunker Wars' map.

In this first room there are over 8.000 Brushes and about 800 entites... complete ctf maps like yavin or bespin got about 2.500 brushes.

This is definetly not the final version of this room... there are some known bugs here and there, but its just the beginning.

DL: BW_Alpha (http://www.jedi-knight2.de/mapdb/index.php?action=2&mapid=192)


hf & l8tr

-dad

wedge2211
04-27-2003, 01:45 PM
:eek:

Wow, an alpha...this map has been hyped a lot, but we haven't seen any indications of it here for a long time. Great to see that it's still going...I'm downloading it now! How much is left to go?

Jman3ooo
04-27-2003, 03:52 PM
I was about to go play Star Wars Galaxies but there seemsto be an imediate change of plans.

Khaza
04-28-2003, 03:51 PM
That looks great!.. but quality came with big price tag of ~20fps :(

Emon
04-29-2003, 02:16 AM
Uh, you do realize there's a 32,000 brush limit, and that you will exceed it faster than the U.S. Army stormed Bagdad, and that the r_speeds will be through the roof?

inbredyokel
04-29-2003, 04:28 AM
Looks good, but as Emon said, those remaining brushes will be eaten up pretty fast at this pace. As I see it, at least a third to half of those brushes can be eliminated. The walkway near the reactor for example, has many needless details in the floor that could easily be textured to obtain the same effect (I originally thought they were textured, as a matter of fact).

wedge2211
04-29-2003, 12:36 PM
Yeah, and putting that mirrory shader on all those tiny brushes? *shudder*

I spent a good five minutes just sitting watching that blue power-core thingy, but...the hubris of this map is amazing. Look at that little grate near the backside of the power core...the one with handles so a person could pull it up and get into an access point to some circuitry. It has maybe 50 brushes in it, when I would have done the same thing with 1 brush textured to LOOK detailed, and perhaps the handles...but this, this is...ugh. Obscenely beautiful. Totally useless in-game.

Wudan
04-29-2003, 06:20 PM
Did I hear 800 entities?

There's a 1024 entitiy limit to GAMEPLAY.

This is fine if you are just making art. Very pretty. Nice form, no function.

Emon
04-29-2003, 06:33 PM
Wudan, I think it's 2048 for multiplayer, 4096 for SP (I don't think it's 2048 since it has been exceeded).

Anyways, advantages of insane brushes are as follows:

1. Looks good

Disadvantages:

1. Runs slow.
2. Will hit entity limits.
3. Will hit brush limits.
4. Runs so slow that no one can or will play it.

Solution:

1. Elimate the extremely unnecessary details and replace them with bumpmapping and low lightmapscale. You can achieve the same effect yet your map remains playable.

Eldritch
04-29-2003, 06:53 PM
I'm inclined to agree with Emon and everyone else here. No matter how fantastic it looks, if no one can play it, there's no reason to release it. That'd be a real shame, considering that the readme says you've spent 200+ hours on it so far.

DadMad
04-29-2003, 08:19 PM
I know what u r all taking about... I know about all the engine limits, and therefor we will try to make a mod that will remove some of the limits...

All I can say is, _this_ version of the map was never designed for being playable!

It is just for showing what IS possible to build in that 3 year old engine... it was my goal to "build" as much detail as possible and not just "paint" it.


Me and my team will release a LowDetail ctf version. (We are 2 mappers, 3 texture/shader artists, 3 effect artists and 3 modelers just working on that map :))

In this version we will use optimized textures/shaders 4 all the details and remove "useless" detailparts of the map to run nice on every maschine like all the other levels...

So its not that useless to build the highdetail version first... because its easier to reduce the detail, than build it completly new...

Crazy_Ivan
04-29-2003, 11:48 PM
I was amazed when I saw your map in-game. I was suprised just to look down at the grating under my characters feet and you spent time making every bar....I could swear it wasnt a shader for that.

On the whole, I think that map is beautiful. Id rather play this map alone than a dulled down one with 8 other people. Your use of detail is great. Mapping involves a balance between gameplay, and detail. I am glad someone took a step and landed heavily on the detail side of things.

Thanks Dad*Mad....this is one of the maps I enjoy playing

wedge2211
04-30-2003, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by DadMad
All I can say is, _this_ version of the map was never designed for being playable!

Me and my team will release a LowDetail ctf version. (We are 2 mappers, 3 texture/shader artists, 3 effect artists and 3 modelers just working on that map :))

In this version we will use optimized textures/shaders 4 all the details and remove "useless" detailparts of the map to run nice on every maschine like all the other levels...

Now THIS is good news. The map can certainly see some use online in that form!

Eldritch
05-01-2003, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by wedge2211
Now THIS is good news. The map can certainly see some use online in that form!
It is good news, but I *still* had framerate issues with all the other maps, with the exception of the first one (the Oasis).

Emon
05-02-2003, 12:35 AM
Hah, you can't make a mod to remove the brush and shader limits. At all. Never. Impossible, end of story.

Eldritch
05-02-2003, 01:22 AM
You wouldn't want to anyway. The brush and shader limits are in place to keep computers from committing suicide.

Kengo
05-02-2003, 11:06 AM
Yeh, splitting it into a high and low detail version seems a fair compromise.

It's certainly an interesting stance to take on the details vs performance debate, I guess computer are getting better all the time, so its nice to aim high (devlopers always seem to) just not too high (.....devlopers always seem to)

DadMad
05-03-2003, 09:27 PM
Originally posted by Eldritch
You wouldn't want to anyway. The brush and shader limits are in place to keep computers from committing suicide.

Those limits are as old as the engine... so its time to higher them up!

Like Kengo said computers are getting better and better...

Emon
05-04-2003, 03:26 PM
Sorry bud, but that's impossible.

Jman3ooo
05-06-2003, 07:17 PM
So were making new GLAs.

Eldritch
05-07-2003, 01:05 AM
Maybe you know something I don't, but I haven't seen any new animations that weren't already in the game.

Wudan
05-07-2003, 11:13 AM
The point is, we're doing things that people didn't think were possible.

I didn't think that anybody would even be able to LOAD Bunker Wars, apparently people can. This gives me hope that I can.

There's nothing wrong with DadMad considering the detail a top priority, it's awesome, even though I have initially been against it. But, it is an art, and he's done a really good job of making his map.

When Jman3ooo mentions the new GLAs, he's mentioning work currently being done that was not previously thought possible, that's all. The new GLA work is well within engine specs though.

Emon
05-11-2003, 02:41 AM
Yes, the circumstances are quite different.

Sorry, but "I'll do it if I really try hard, even if it's impossible!" only works in corny Disney movies.

Code
05-11-2003, 03:35 AM
tr_types.h
// can't be increased without changing drawsurf bit packing
#define MAX_ENTITIES 1023

and also note

cg_public.h
#define MAX_ENTITIES_IN_SNAPSHOT 256

drawsurf stuff is of course handled by engine
here is an example quake2 drawsurf (http://drew.intercarve.net/archives/quake2/quake2/ref_gl/gl_rsurf.c) related code
if someone is interested witch i doubt ...