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View Full Version : Take a look at KOTOR Raven!


Deadeye
04-28-2003, 01:00 AM
I was just watching the trailer for KOTOR, and I noticed something kinda cool, and interesting. If you look at the clips where there is a saber duel going on, you can see that Bioware's animation work is nice. You can really see the strength in many of the swings that the Jedi make. When I look at JO's saber swings, they dont' seem nearly as aggressive (don't give me a dark side lecture, you guys know what I mean :) The JO swings look kinda weak and generic. I know, that KOTOR is an RPG, but it would be cool if they tweaked some of the animations for JA. That's all.

In watching the trailer, I keep getting more excited about KOTOR, but I still think to myself that this is gonna be my first RPG, and the combat is completely different from an FPS. Still the tension in those saber duel clips is very exciting. I know that its a trailer and they set them up to be that way, but like I said before, when you compare the saber swing animations, KOTOR is better IMHO

Silent_Thunder
04-28-2003, 04:59 AM
I never had any problem with the ammount of energy or aggresiveness shown in JKII fighting...

The problem I have with it is the momentum and dynamics of the saber swings... It looks like the Jedi are holding a baseball bat, and swinging it accordingly... I mean, seriously, what's up with the heavy stance? We never see anything remotely like that in the movies. In the movies its obvious that more speed equals more strength in the blows.

But come to think of it... when I see Kotor saber fighting it DOES remind me more of the movies then JO... so maybe you have a point there.

Toa Tahu
04-28-2003, 06:32 AM
I always thought it was cool if they implemented it there...it would also be good if they changed the expressions in the Jedi's faces in their battles,so we don't see this 'neutral' Luke's face when he's desperate to fight over the galaxy.

HertogJan
04-28-2003, 07:53 AM
Yeah that would be cool (about the faces), and kyle did have some face expressions in the cutscenes, so it should work during battles.

And yes KOTOR looks nice, but you can't control your character during the fight itself, it's turn based. That way you can 'organize' way better fights, because the computer handles the moves, not the player.

Jolts
04-28-2003, 08:08 AM
well the block/deflection/bounce animation used for the saber in JO were only 2 frames from the actual swing animation. In kotor they have their own set of actual block animations sets. If JO had its own new set of animations it could look like those kotor blocks and still play the same as it does now. But the way raven did saved them lots of animation time.

kotor has better timing on their swings, and the key posing in the animation are more true to what we have seen in the movie, JO looks more like something you would see with actual real sword fighting for key poses in the animations they used. It just sells itself better to the viewer. Things moved either too fast to see clearly and sell itself to the viewer, or in slow akward way in JO. But JKA will be the same as JO in that regards so better luck next developer who takes on a jedi game.

Pedro The Hutt
04-28-2003, 08:09 AM
hmmm, but no signs of classic Jedi robes in Kotor, blast XD
Let's hope JKIII will feature them o.o

StormHammer
04-28-2003, 12:42 PM
Well, Raven have already been stating in interviews and articles that they have improved the animation all around, and added a lot of new moves. Here's an excerpt from the Gamespy interview...

GameSpy: You also learn about what people liked, and didn't like, about the first game. What art enhancements are being done to the saber combat?

Les Dorscheid: There's probably three times as much animation as there was before, [including] multiple fighting styles and different weaponry. It was pretty straightforward before and now it's greatly expanded. I guess toward the end of the project (JK2) we thought the saber animation was going to be special, but when the game was released people said the saber animation and combat was what made the game!

Christopher Foster: That's why you get the saber at the beginning of the game now! We've also got a lot of our team members who are very into martial arts and the saber combat. They're always making suggestions and talking about what would be cool and fun to play. We've come up with some really great special moves that make the game feel movie-like. And you get to do them.

I think that pretty much answers the question. They're trying to make it more movie-like, with about 3 times the amount of animation. I think the saber combat should be even better than it already is. :)

Wudan
04-28-2003, 12:50 PM
Hmmm... 3x the animation data - that'd be ... 30 megs of animation - wowzers ... but let's say about a 3rd of that gets optimized ... hmmm ... so maybe twice the size of JK2's animation file.

(ps - i'm that guy who's working at making new animations possible for JO)

Prime
04-28-2003, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by Pedro The Hutt
hmmm, but no signs of classic Jedi robes in Kotor, blast XD
Let's hope JKIII will feature them o.o You mean kind of like the one in the concept art here? (http://www.lucasarts.com/products/jediacademy/)

HertogJan
04-28-2003, 01:11 PM
Those aren't real Jedi robes... They look way better than the clothes kyle wears (sp?), but still, they aren't the robes like Obi Wan, Anakin and Mace Windu (eh.. ALL JEDI) wear...

Prime
04-29-2003, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by HertogJan
Those aren't real Jedi robes... They look way better than the clothes kyle wears (sp?), but still, they aren't the robes like Obi Wan, Anakin and Mace Windu (eh.. ALL JEDI) wear... Oh, so you mean the cloaks they wear over top of their clothes? I see. I would think the animations to get them to look good while moving would be difficult.

As for what Jedi wear, remember that the Jedi of Kyle's era are quite different from those of the Old Republic. What Kyle wears in JO is a lot closer to what Jedi (e.g. Jacen and Jaina Solo) wear in the post-ROTJ timeframe. At least, that is my impression. I haven't actually read the books. :)

Andy867
04-29-2003, 03:31 PM
Yea because you have to consider that Luke was the only Jedi left after the Rule of the Empire, so a lot of the ideas were forgotten especially since the Jedi Archives were probably destroyed. (the keyword there is probably).so the new jedi order is taken after what Master Luke thinks is how Jedi should look. Least, thats my interpratation which would best seem to fit why the Jedi Robes look so different from the times of Obi-wan and Master Windu, etc.

StormHammer
04-29-2003, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by Andy867
Yea because you have to consider that Luke was the only Jedi left after the Rule of the Empire, so a lot of the ideas were forgotten especially since the Jedi Archives were probably destroyed. (the keyword there is probably).so the new jedi order is taken after what Master Luke thinks is how Jedi should look. Least, thats my interpratation which would best seem to fit why the Jedi Robes look so different from the times of Obi-wan and Master Windu, etc.

:wstupid:

That sounds like a reasonable explanation to me. :)

Pedro The Hutt
04-29-2003, 04:02 PM
But on the other hand Luke has seen both Obi-Wan and Yoda wear them.... and besides I think that it would be cool to make a character dress like that, one who loved the legends he had heard of the old Jedi order for example. But in any case, if they don't make it into the game, I'm sure that there'll be plenty of other neat outfits to create.

Andy867
04-29-2003, 04:33 PM
Yea, but Luke might also come to the idea that they are only wearing those robes as to not look like Jedi, he probably thought Jedi had more vibrant attire, so wearing simple robes would make them look less conspicous and with Yoda, the swamp environment didn't prove very hospitable for anything other than robes or something lightweight. Little did he know that Jedi actually wore robes. I mean sure if he "searched his feelings" he would be able to hear Obi-wan talk to him about the robes, but really, a Jedi can choose what they want to wear, which is why Anakin has a completely different look from Obi-wan, etc.

HertogJan
04-29-2003, 06:06 PM
Originally posted by Prime
Oh, so you mean the cloaks they wear over top of their clothes? I see. I would think the animations to get them to look good while moving would be difficult.

As for what Jedi wear, remember that the Jedi of Kyle's era are quite different from those of the Old Republic. What Kyle wears in JO is a lot closer to what Jedi (e.g. Jacen and Jaina Solo) wear in the post-ROTJ timeframe. At least, that is my impression. I haven't actually read the books. :)


No I didn't mean that :) It may be my English, but for as far as I know, cloaks aren't the same as robes. Everyone here uses robes as the word for the clothes the Jedi wear underneath their cloak :)

Anywayz, I think the original Jedi robes are great, and it's ridiculous how ppl like Tavion and Desann are dressed. Even Palpatine wore a stylish cloak, but no, they have to have crazy purple suits :rolleyes:

Blademaster_109
04-29-2003, 06:20 PM
where is the movie at.

SeanTB123
04-29-2003, 07:28 PM
regarding the cloaks:

http://www.synicon.com.au/sw/jedi/jedi.htm

Blademaster_109
04-29-2003, 10:24 PM
what, thats not the web site, where do i download it.

Emon
04-29-2003, 11:18 PM
For all we know, their ragdoll skelaton system can create block, knock away, pain and death animations on the fly. That's how things really should be done, anyways.

Prime
04-30-2003, 12:57 AM
Originally posted by Pedro The Hutt
and besides I think that it would be cool to make a character dress like that... I won't argue with that :p

StormHammer
04-30-2003, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by Emon
For all we know, their ragdoll skelaton system can create block, knock away, pain and death animations on the fly. That's how things really should be done, anyways.

I doubt it's that complex...but it would certainly be great to see.

As I understood it from the discussions about UT2K3, Epic had not resolved going from pre-animated to ragdoll and back to preanimated movements. Once they switched to ragdoll, I think they would have to reset to a standard pose to have a fluid transition back to preanimated movement - or something. Hence they only included rag-doll effects for death in the game. I'm sure things have moved on since then...they were certainly looking at it for Unreal.

As far as the Q3 engine goes...well, it's anyone's guess. I think they would have the same kind of difficulty going from ragdoll effects back to pre-animated, unless they could place a constraint to force the rag-doll effect into a certain end position so that it could be preanimated again from there.

But I'm not a tech-head...

Emon
05-01-2003, 12:11 AM
Deus Ex: Invisible War's Havok physics engine is supposed to be even better than UT2K3's, making it the best ever created. Hopefully this is true.

Instead of using a traditional animation system, one should instead create the animations on the fly, so to speak. Meaning, it will read animation data from a file, but will use the physics engine to animate the character. This way, if you were to get hit by a large caliber bullet in, say the upper right torso, force would be applied to the area which is in turn distributed throughout the effected area, and pushes you back. The "animating" would "resist" the force, pushing you back after the hit.

It would be tough to do, and may not be feasable for a full game for several years, but would be incredible. The closest game to emulate this is Hitman 2. When you shoot a guy in the chest with a 0.45 caliber round, he really gets thrown back, just like he should. I doubt they are using an animation file and moving the player in real time like I described, but their physics blend very well with animations. Infact, it's one of the best physics engines I've seen. It's like UT2K3's but the deformations are handled a little sloppier.

razorace
05-01-2003, 05:55 AM
I agree it is doable (with a high end system) but I don't think it's going to happen in JKA. The development cycle is going to be relatively quick and it's probably going to be the last Q3 game that Raven is going to make.

Pedro The Hutt
05-01-2003, 11:38 AM
meh, as long as there is g_saberrealisticcombat 1 I will be happy ^_^ makes for plenty of variation.