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Irimi-Ai
04-28-2003, 07:45 PM
in the recently released features by Kenn Hoekstra, it says that the new scripting system will allow for scripted events in MP. basically, that means it should be easy to create co-op maps/levels, because co-op is basically MP against scripted/AI enemies. hope people who know how to do this crank out some good co-op maps. those are my favorite kinds of MP, and i'm not talking about team MP.


Irimi-Ai

Blademaster_109
04-28-2003, 07:50 PM
i hope if there is co-op then there are some extra jedi, i don't say twice because a person might be doing co-op for help or something.

StormHammer
04-28-2003, 08:54 PM
Originally posted by Irimi-Ai
in the recently released features by Kenn Hoekstra, it says that the new scripting system will allow for scripted events in MP. basically, that means it should be easy to create co-op maps/levels, because co-op is basically MP against scripted/AI enemies. hope people who know how to do this crank out some good co-op maps. those are my favorite kinds of MP, and i'm not talking about team MP.


Irimi-Ai

Are you sure you're not reading too much into it? A scripted event doesn't necessarily mean an enemy encounter, does it? If co-op was that easy to put in there...they'd put it in there themselves. And I'm not sure they'll be doing that... I'm not saying I don't want to see it...it would be great...but I'm just dubious...

taekwondo joe
04-28-2003, 10:30 PM
what do they mean by scripted event?? the only thing i can see is when in half-life, you came up on the guys shooting at the alians, with out your partisipation, or in JO when you came up on jedi fighting reborn towards the end. but for mp, how would this take place :eyeraise: could yall help a brother out?

StormHammer
04-28-2003, 10:37 PM
Originally posted by taekwondo joe
what do they mean by scripted event?? the only thing i can see is when in half-life, you came up on the guys shooting at the alians, with out your partisipation, or in JO when you came up on jedi fighting reborn towards the end. but for mp, how would this take place :eyeraise: could yall help a brother out?

A scripted event could be anything. It could be a bridge collapsing. It could be someone being dragged into an air-vent. It's something that happens at a given time...or is triggered by a player's action. I can see where this sort of thing can add atmosphere to MP... but as for the specifics...

Well, we have no specifics...
we have no specifics today...

Sorry, couldn't resist. :D

t3rr0r
04-28-2003, 10:41 PM
if said scripted events are like the ones found in wolfenstein: enemy territory, i'll be very content.

BrainStorm
04-29-2003, 01:36 PM
LOL, pulled into a vent. I loved that!

Coop would be a very nice thing to have.

tFighterPilot
04-30-2003, 10:18 AM
If there would be, it would be much more fun then just slashing each other.

A lot of games have this, like UT, CS, TO... :bdroid2:

Prime
04-30-2003, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by imyourfather
If there would be, it would be much more fun then just slashing each other. It might be for some, but remember, FFA deathmatch is the most popular gametype out there. So others might not agree. :)

Taos
04-30-2003, 01:31 PM
I'm one of those who think that a co-op mode would be a fun way to play the game......a nice break from FFA. It would make it more movie like and I think that's pretty cool. :)

Irimi-Ai
04-30-2003, 05:08 PM
i was taking scripted to mean what others have said in this thread. namely, events that happen without direct input from the player (e.g., bridge falling, etc.). however, storm troopers on patrol can be scripted and the AI file attached to the script, and so on. there could be lower lag, too, as the script can be triggered when the player crosses a certain boundry (e.g., enemies don't spawn until a player crosses a boundry). this will decrease the amount of entities that have to be tracked, as they are only spawned when needed. i did some scripting in MP for JK2 (in my animation mod), and that was the first thing i thought of when i read that, since co-op is my favorite style of MP. i also did some co-op stuff for the original JK. i could be wrong, but i hope i'm not.

Irimi-Ai

Blademaster_109
04-30-2003, 10:31 PM
Originally posted by StormHammer
Are you sure you're not reading too much into it? A scripted event doesn't necessarily mean an enemy encounter, does it? If co-op was that easy to put in there...they'd put it in there themselves. And I'm not sure they'll be doing that... I'm not saying I don't want to see it...it would be great...but I'm just dubious...

i think he is, but still it would be nice.

Toa Tahu
05-01-2003, 07:18 AM
I hope we'll get something like Seven Co-Op,but instead of the aliens and assasins,we'll get unusual enemies,like Gammoreans and Dark Jedi to prevent us from scoring our goals and at the same time try to score theirs.However,we'll have to put a cap so there won't be mindless play for a long time(although allowed if host wants)

Blademaster_109
05-01-2003, 08:59 AM
i'm talking about xbox not computers. i don't think co-op im mp is possible on them.

Toa Tahu
05-01-2003, 11:42 AM
Uh...didn't see that though.Sorry.Anyway,Mr. Kenn also didn't say about the 'scripted events' NOT happening in the PC version,so we could also still have hope.

Prime
05-01-2003, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by Blademaster_109
i'm talking about xbox not computers. i don't think co-op im mp is possible on them. Not possible on XBox or not possible on computers?

tFighterPilot
05-02-2003, 09:32 AM
You're all talking about co-op where everyone is on the same team, fighting NPC's.

I think it would be beter without NPC's, where the goal is something like one team trying to press on a button, and the other team is trying to prevent it.

When you die, you do not respwan, until the end of the round.

Just like the games I was talking about before.

StormHammer
05-02-2003, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by imyourfather
You're all talking about co-op where everyone is on the same team, fighting NPC's.

I think it would be beter without NPC's, where the goal is something like one team trying to press on a button, and the other team is trying to prevent it.

When you die, you do not respwan, until the end of the round.

Just like the games I was talking about before.

Yes, but in a way that's basically just like CTF, if you just have two opposing teams. You can have a better context...just look at some of UT's and UT2K3's game modes, like Domination and Assault, which are both fun to play. And although I've not played RTCW's MP, it is more objective-based, with players assuming different roles as part of the team. There's nothing wrong with any of that, I agree.

However, a straightforward co-op where you are fighting computer-controlled NPCs can be very fun as well, and it would be nice to have that kind of experience in MP. UT2K3 has recently introduced the 'Invasion' mode, where you basically have to keep hordes of enemies at bay with your team-mates - and it's a good blast.

If they introduced something like the first MotS SP level into MP, with you and your team-mates playing the part of the Rebels defending the base against an Imperial (npc) invasion, I think it would be a lot of fun. :) There is also a little more potential for developing this in the context of a storyline, possibly spanning a few missions. And in that kind of context, I think you should definitely be given the option to respawn, to rejoin the battle - or the choice to go into spectator mode, if you wish.

Prime
05-02-2003, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by imyourfather
I think it would be beter without NPC's, where the goal is something like one team trying to press on a button, and the other team is trying to prevent it.You mean Capture the Flag? :)

Originally posted by imyourfather
When you die, you do not respwan, until the end of the round. I don't think this would ever work. What happens when there are a lot of people playing, and thus a long time until the game is over? What happens if you are killed after 2 minutes of a 20 minute match? I'll tell you what happens:

DISCONNECT

By the end of the game, there will be no one to play another game, because they all didn't want to wait forever for the game to finish.

And what happens if you allow people to join a game in progress (which you pretty much have to do)? Then anyone who gets killed will just disconnect and then reconnect to the game anyway.

So you might as well just let them respawn and keep playing, because people will find a way to do that anyway.

Toa Tahu
05-02-2003, 01:49 PM
Well how come we have games like Seven Co-Op?If they could do it,why not JA?

Prime
05-02-2003, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by Toa Tahu
Well how come we have games like Seven Co-Op?If they could do it,why not JA? I've never played it. What is that like?

RenegadeOfPhunk
05-02-2003, 03:39 PM
Prime,

The LMS (Last Man Standing) gametype is well established and a lot of popular mods are based around it. So it obviously works...

You don't allow rounds to last as long as 20 mins! I agree, if they were that long, you would be disconnecting...

And you don't allow players to jump straight in the round when they connect, they observe until the start of the next...

Irimi-Ai
05-05-2003, 03:59 PM
i think he's referring to the "Sven co-op" for HL (not "Seven co-op"). just do a google and it'll pop up.

anyway, i could be reading more into the game description than actually exists. though, like i said in my earlier post (and based on my experience with scripting in JO and doing some co-op work on the original JK) i do think co-op MP in JA sounds like a possibility...or at least much more possible than with JO. i could do anything in terms of animation, ai, entity tracking, path finding, and events in the SP game in JO with scripting. if it were possible to do these things in MP, co-op games would be possible. however, those couldn't be done because the scripting engine wasn't even loaded in the MP executable. that was the whole problem...as long as the ICARUS scripting engine is loaded in the MP executable, co-op should be relatively easy to implement. i took Kenn Hoekstra's post to mean that (at least some form of) the ICARUS scripting engine will be loaded with the MP executable, thus meaning that co-op MP will be possible.

Irimi-Ai

Agen
05-05-2003, 04:08 PM
If you remember the team who tried to make co-op for jk2.... you'll remember that raven were helping them and they failed... only because of the texture capacity in mp compared to SP. Raven were trying to help but they couldn't figure away and the project was cancelled... so unless they have figured away, it's very unlikely.

Just the facts :(

Sam Fisher
05-17-2003, 10:39 AM
But we must have Co-Op!

StormHammer
05-17-2003, 11:33 AM
According to ZeroXcape's impressions of the game (http://www.jediknightii.net/e3_academy.shtml), there will be no co-op in SP. However, the new MP mode Siege sounds like it could be quite interesting, with objective-based gameplay. If it doesn't currently allow a human team to go up against a team of Bots...then maybe it could be modded. *shrugs*

Solbe M'ko
05-17-2003, 03:29 PM
Holy cow! When I first noticed this thread I thought: You could damage the environment like in ESB!

Anyway, I'm not a programmer or anything, but I don't think that Co-op is the same as having npcs in multiplayer. Co-op is single player with more than one person, if you follow, and I think it would have to be programmed differently. Npcs in MP would be nice though, bartenders, etc.

Seige sounded good until I heard somewhere that it would be compared to Conter Strike (Shudder! The Beta 2 days are long gone *sigh*). I liked assault in UT, it was my favorite game type because it required teamwork. I think something like that, with many objectives, would fit better into SW than just "plant the bomb". I would sure like to see guns only, stormtroopers vs. rebels in the Tantive IV, with C-3P0 and R2-D2 running around the map.

StormHammer
05-17-2003, 06:39 PM
Originally posted by Solbe M'ko
Anyway, I'm not a programmer or anything, but I don't think that Co-op is the same as having npcs in multiplayer. Co-op is single player with more than one person, if you follow, and I think it would have to be programmed differently. Npcs in MP would be nice though, bartenders, etc.

Well, normally I'd agree with you and say co-op would be playing with your mates in SP...but MP has changed so much, that I think you can have co-op missions, as long as the game mechanics support a human team going through a level against NPC enemies to achieve an objective - or even a series of objectives.

Seige sounded good until I heard somewhere that it would be compared to Conter Strike (Shudder! The Beta 2 days are long gone *sigh*). I liked assault in UT, it was my favorite game type because it required teamwork. I think something like that, with many objectives, would fit better into SW than just "plant the bomb". I would sure like to see guns only, stormtroopers vs. rebels in the Tantive IV, with C-3P0 and R2-D2 running around the map.

I think they meant it was a bit like CS in terms that you had player classes, such as Jedi, Demolitionist, Trooper, etc., and that your Jedi team-mate could heal others. But they were comparing it to Assault mode in UT before...so maybe it's the best of both worlds. I too would like a guns only assault like you describe...but have you considered that Republic Commando might have something along those lines? :) I surely hope it does...

Solbe M'ko
05-17-2003, 11:59 PM
To go off topic: I havn't seen any screens of RC yet, just that prefab trailer, so I can't comment on it yet.

Kurgan
05-25-2003, 07:56 AM
I thought it had been confirmed (via our E3 reporters) that Coop play as we're all hoping for (ie: multiplayer completion of the Single Player campaign) was NOT a planned feature of JA?

Anyway, we're getting Siege, but that doesn't mean it will be so open ended that we can create full blown COOP missions like we've seen in Serious Sam for example.

I HOPE we can though, which is why I hope they release the SP SDK so people can modify the source.

Matariel
05-26-2003, 02:52 AM
Brett Toasti, who was the LucasArts producer of Jedi Outcast, is also producing Jedi Academy. Before anyone else asks, Brett informed us that there will not be a cooperative single player aspect

Its in that article at jkii.net
But i dont think its possible to make a co-op game the way the jk puzzles work, if there was more than one person in the game, there would be no puzzles, and the trigger events would go all screwy. I wanted to make a SP mod of jk2, but the SP source wasnt released (cant see why, apparently DLL's are 'dangerous' now)
Ahh well, wait for Galaxies to come out for all your co-op fun :)
Much better platform for it really...

Wudan
05-27-2003, 12:57 PM
Scripted events in MP gives us greater options as map creators. It doesn't mean we will be walking through SP together.

Raven's code took a bad turn when one of the lead devs authorized some dirty code hacks to enable more things for SP, that is, to remove the restrictions that a client / server based setup has.

It is very very likely that this is in the executeable for SP, as it is in JK2, and we can only kludge together a fix for the MP executeable, but it probably won't have all the scripting options of SP, and will most likely prove fruitless.

However, this doesn't mean the game will suck.

It will be good, but most likely strongly over-shadowed. Putting Star Wars on the title will make this a best-seller. Once you've bought the game, the job is done, and you have encouraged this kind of business practice.

There is a problem here, but where it lies is both elusive and deceptive.

Prime
05-27-2003, 01:00 PM
I'm just as happy to have no co-op in SP. Leave that kind of thing for MP, IMO.

jesseg88
05-27-2003, 02:11 PM
You want Co-op? Easy! Choose a Siege level, have one team all humans and another all NPCs! Tada!

nomad
05-27-2003, 04:17 PM
Even if they can just modify the seige type game a little to make a co-op mode only slightly more involved than Team FFa, that would be great.
I mean, Human players as Luke, Han, Chewie, Obi-Wan (?) running through the Death Star, fighting storm troopers, rescuing the Princess and fleeing safely to their ship isn't that much different than capture the flag.
Is it? Well, besides the fact that it would be such a blast and a great addition to the game types.
I do hope it is these types of MP games that they are focusing on adding to the title, or at least making it possible for the editing community to make.
Of course, I'd love to see Co-op as involved as it can be, but I'd absolutely settle for a lesser variety.

-nomad

MTFBWY

Emon
05-28-2003, 02:14 AM
Originally posted by Prime
I'm just as happy to have no co-op in SP. Leave that kind of thing for MP, IMO.

Uh, so yeah, it definatly wouldn't be SP any more if it was co-op..

Wudan
05-28-2003, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by Emon
Uh, so yeah, it definatly wouldn't be SP any more if it was co-op..
I guess not. Co-Op in this sense refers to playing levels designed for SP with Multiple Players.

I can see why they wouldn't have it, it would take their little concept of an SP system and crush it.

The Count
05-28-2003, 12:31 PM
I was thinking maybe it would be technologically feasable for a MOD Team to create Co-Op for JA, because there may not be the same restraints in JA MP as there was in JO.

Wudan
05-28-2003, 12:41 PM
It very likely wouldn't have ICARUS type scripting, but something like this could be done, just with new maps.

Prime
05-28-2003, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by wudan
I guess not. Co-Op in this sense refers to playing levels designed for SP with Multiple Players.

I can see why they wouldn't have it, it would take their little concept of an SP system and crush it. This was what I was refering to Emon :)

As for mods, unless they release the SP source code (which I very much doubt they will), won't it be next to impossible to do this?

Emon
05-28-2003, 10:15 PM
Well they do have ICARUS II in MP...

Prime
05-29-2003, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by Emon
Well they do have ICARUS II in MP... What is that exactly? Some sort of scripting language?

Wacky_Baccy
05-29-2003, 02:01 PM
Exactly that :)

Quite powerful too, apparently - it may even make MP interesting enough to make me want to play it :D

I hope it's not too cut-down from the SP version, if at all...

Matariel
05-30-2003, 02:11 AM
if ICARUS is in MP, it will almost certainly be cut down in features, since in SP its used for camera and cutscene scripting, as well as scripted triggers etc..

Scripted mission objectives would be cool tho, allows for lots of game modes, like assault, 'protect the VIP' and anything else you could think of

Wacky_Baccy
05-30-2003, 04:25 AM
Posted by Matariel
if ICARUS is in MP, it will almost certainly be cut down in features, since in SP its used for camera and cutscene scripting, as well as scripted triggers etc..Ah, yes, of course - I completely forgot about that aspect of it x.x

Let me rephrase then - "I hope it's not cut-down any more than it absolutely needs to be" :p :D

zERoCooL2479
05-30-2003, 06:52 PM
It's definitly looking good. I hope they have fixed all their bugs from JO if they use that code as well...

Reprehence
06-04-2003, 09:06 PM
FYI

There was someone working on a co-op mode for single player maps (at least one's the community created), but they ran into problems because of restrictions in the MP engine that aren't present in the SP engine.

Perhaps if Raven will fix the problem during development someone with skillz can make the mod work properly.

for more info:
http://www.wiredlampstudios.com/

boinga1
06-04-2003, 09:49 PM
Yes, that's (bluntly speaking) 9 month old news, it's...sorta dead. And it's not really a "problem", but likely aneccessity to deal with the difficulties of transmitting game information over vast distances ovber phone lines...you know? If MP was too complex, there'd be massive lag, crashes...etc. (in some cases).

Please don't let my bluntness here offend you, that's just...part of me.

lestat chalmers
06-05-2003, 12:41 AM
Alright, this may be a bit abstract but bear with me. I'm not a programmer or modder, I just thought I'd fart-arse around at a lan one day.

In Moh:AA (Medal of Honour: Allied Assault for those who don't know) which is using the Q3 engine I noticed my mate playing the Omaha beach mission SP. I've ALWAYS wanted to do it co-op, so I typed connect - his IP.

Now it may be stupid but I did in fact get in. However I killed him accidentally because of a spawning problem (a spawn frag basically because it was a scripted sequence where he couldn't move and I took his place).

Now I know it isn't JK so my question is basically why can't we just add an extra spawn to these maps. Or has this concept just been shut down already? Call me stupid if you must, it can't hurt to just have a go...:confused:

StormHammer
06-05-2003, 10:47 AM
Welcome to the forums, lestat chalmers. Hope you're enjoying your stay so far.

Your question is a good one. The problem is not about adding more spawn points to SP maps to enable other people to join them for a co-op mission, though. It's usually more about how the SP game is designed, particularly when there are scripted events, and when certain pathways are blocked behind a player etc. One player will trigger an event...which may block the path for other players, or because other players are in the same level while something else is going on, I assume the game would do something strange or possibly crash.

The other issue is about game balance. For SP, you will be facing X amount of enemies to make the game challenging, and have a fixed number of items in a level, like ammo, health packs etc., that are balanced just right to see one player through the level. If you simply retain X amount of enemies (and items) for a co-op mode, it becomes less challenging in that you have 2 or more people whacking the same number of bad guys, but also presents problems over who gets the ammo, who gets the health.

I know that when the mod team for Rune Co-Op were working on trying to get co-op to work in SP, they had to basically redesign the levels, change some of the scripted events, add more spawn points along the way in each level so that when someone died, they spawned back in closer to their team-mates. This is especially useful for getting past those blocked path issues. There were a whole wealth of issues, and only by working very closely with the developer were they able to get it to work. I haven't actually played the mod myself, but from what I've read the co-op version is different from the SP version.

So, it is not impossible to play through SP in co-op, but the way games are designed these days, it takes a lot more work to get co-op to actually work effectively when faced with all those triggered events. For SP co-op to work well, the levels have to be designed with that in mind, including more spawn points, but also making sure all players can get past triggered events, have enough health and ammo etc., for everyone to use, and increase the number (or difficulty) of enemies to make it more challenging for a team of players. I haven't even touched on network issues (I'm not a tech-head).

It's not impossible to do these things, you understand, but when a developer is working to a tight deadline (which they usually are these days) it's hard to find the extra time and resources to get a co-op mode working effectively. In some ways, it is more like a separate game mode, like MP is to SP.

lestat chalmers
06-05-2003, 11:28 PM
Understandable that there is a problem inhereted with the fact that resources have to be shared (played Jedi Power Battles lately?), however if scripted events can be utilised in multiplayer for JK3 then it is more than likely the process would be a simpler one than Jk2.

Simpler - not simple.

I myself would be determined to find a way to do it with JK3 (since number 2 scripted events are something unknown in Multi).

I would also like to note that I think (in my opinion) that AI enemies in Multi are completely stupid and despite the fact that it can kill you; it doesn't exactly co-operate with teammates and doesn't evaluate problems (being outnumbered and gathering help) which single player enemies do.

I say this because the Reborn fight differently in SP and MP. So I assume that the AI is different and therefore that to simply convert the maps would mean the AI would be somewhat ludicrously stupid.

I'm checking out how the problem may be resolved; but it seems to be a rather large job with a payoff that might not work properly.

Other issues I have thought of for co-op are player limits, weapon restrictions (possibly to the saber only - they are jedi after all), and cut scene interaction.

When taking in these issues, simply making a TC mod with co-op seems a far sight easier.

lestat chalmers
06-05-2003, 11:32 PM
An apology for the long posts; I'm obviously very bored in my college classes and desperate for a co-op mode. I should do my test now... I hate network administration.