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Dagobahn Eagle
04-29-2003, 01:23 AM
Warning: Spoilers;)

I know what you think, but before you bash me, let me say this actually is a serious discussion/debate.

The Sum of All Fears is about a terrorist group setting off a nuclear bomb at an American football game and frames Russia, who at the time is part of the Soviet Union, in order to get the USA to go to war against them.

The interesting part of the movie is how both the USA and Soviet carries out a series of defensive moves, such as preparing their nuclear missiles for launch, and the other side interpretes it as a preparation of a nuclear strike (if you have nothing against disaster images, watch it. It relates in a way).

My question is: Could this be the situation we're facing with the North Korean atomic research program? Could it be that rather than planning an attack, they're (or were, as it appears talks have finally begun) merely trying to get a bomb or ten ready so that the USA, South Korea, and/or China won't dare liberate their people?

How many people believe North Korea is playing defensively in trying to get nuclear weapons? I do. No country has built nukes in peacetime to start a war with them.

munik
04-29-2003, 02:28 AM
Sure, I'll buy that. I think I may have seen it mentioned in the news or somewhere, but NK say they will not stop their nuclear program because of the States actions in Iraq. They figure that if the U.S. will invade because you won't do what they say, NK isn't gonna fold like the pansies in Iraq. That is a defensive position if you ask me. Don't know how true this is, but it would be a good argument.

My personal opinion is that they are only proceeding with this as another attempt at extortion against the U.S. But if the U.S. doesn't give in, and decides to invade, we'll really get to see if it was a bluff or not.

DSettahr
04-29-2003, 01:17 PM
I didnt much like the sum of all fears when I first saw it in the theatres... however, I saw it again a few days ago and loved it. I think its because the second time, I was able to follow the plot better, and so understood what was going on a lot better.

As for comparrison to the North Korea situation... I dont really think so. First of all, North Korea is not a terrorist group, and for sure, one of their reasons for developing nukes is to ascertain themselves as a legitimate world power. They might not even have plans to use such weapons, but simply having them will make a lot more countries around the world listen to them, it might even get them a few new positions on certain UN councils.

Also, defense is (imo) a legitimate reason for developing such weapons. In a time where North Korea is often at odds with the US and other world powers, who wouldnt want to feel more secure? And with the war in Iraq over, I'm sure a lot of North Koreans are feeling edgy, and have fears that their country could be next.

C'jais
04-29-2003, 01:38 PM
N. Korea has nuclear weapons.

I'm at a loss to the article, though.

Dagobahn Eagle
04-29-2003, 08:59 PM
As for comparrison to the North Korea situation... I dont really think so. First of all, North Korea is not a terrorist group, and for sure, one of their reasons for developing nukes is to ascertain themselves as a legitimate world power. They might not even have plans to use such weapons, but simply having them will make a lot more countries around the world listen to them, it might even get them a few new positions on certain UN councils.
I knew all that, I just thought the whole build-up thing was a good analogy.

Okay, 'Jais, the question, to sum it up, was: Why does NK have nukes? Plain and simple.

Then I used that movie, where USA misunderstands Soviet's defensive action as an aggressive action, as an analogy to how some Americans might believe that NK is up to something.
Still lost;)?

C'jais
04-29-2003, 09:11 PM
Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle
Okay, 'Jais, the question, to sum it up, was: Why does NK have nukes? Plain and simple.

Ack, pardon my blundering :D

Well, simply put, it's another of North Korea's famous hissyfits, in MHO.

But boy, it's so fun to watch USA do absolutely nothing - they're so terrified of pissing in China's backyard that they're really using the kid gloves on these guys.

No really, I think N. Korea got the message from the Iraq war - If you have nukes and no valuable oil, the States are gonna leave your country well alone.

ShockV1.89
04-29-2003, 09:51 PM
Sadly enough, that's true. :( I, personally, would have been much more inclined to deal with N. Korea before Iraq. With Iraq, we only suspected him of dealing with chemical and biological weapons, and we knew pretty well that he had no nukes.

With N. Korea, we know for a fact they have nukes, as well as the means to deliver them halfway around the world. Not cool for anyone.

But we waited too long on this, opting instead to take Saddam out first. And now North Korea has got many more nukes ready, as well as having reprocessed all their nuclear material.

N. Korea has nukes, in my opinion, for the sole purpose of excercising political power, as well as avoiding an "Iraq situation" in which a foreign power forces its way in and executes a regime change. Hard to do that with nukes falling from the sky.

I dont think the US is hesitating out of fear of China, although that's probably some part of it. I think we just dont want to be involved in the first real nuclear exchange. Hiroshima/Nagasaki was a test bed, really. They're firecrackers compared to some of the ordinance out there. If someone is going to start a nuclear war (and believe me, someone will), the US doesnt want to be involved. Invariably, people will blame the US.

Dagobahn Eagle
04-29-2003, 09:51 PM
It would seem both China and South Korea are pretty mad at the States as of now. They're not exactly too cool with Japan either.

But boy, it's so fun to watch USA do absolutely nothing - they're so terrified of pissing in China's backyard that they're really using the kid gloves on these guys.
Well, they have done stuff -from questionable stuff like cutting off food supply leaving thousands of North Koreans dying, to stationing tanks in SK, running over two little grils -to the more productive stuff like actually sitting down to talk with North Korean leaders.

IMO, NK figures that if they can get Bush convinced that they are mad enough to nuke Houston if the USA invades, the USA won't invade. Makes me wish Iraq had a nuclear bomb..

Off-topic:
All in all, the USA needs to be more people-friendly. Their recent bashing of people who disagreed with them, particularly Germany and France, and their weak attempts at diplomacy with Saddam Hussein, have led the world to dislike them even more.

What they should have done was use the sympathy they got from 9/11 and get the world to help them peacefully eradicate terrorism. Also, I believe that while being moronic in the case of Afghanistan (no one in Afghanistan need, what was it, $2 000 000, they need food, medicine, and clothes), the reward system for capture of terrorism might have been a good way of aiding that. If you wind up some terrorist cell in your famine-stricken hometown, the US will pay for the restoration of your hometown. If there's a tubercolosis epidemic, the US will vaccinate your village. Fair and simple, and it could have gone a long way.

ShockV1.89
04-29-2003, 09:53 PM
to stationing tanks in SK, running over two little grils

I really hate it when people do this. You make it sound like the sole result of the positioning of the tanks was the deaths of the two children. :rolleyes: :(

I know it's not what you mean, but that's really how it comes off....

Dagobahn Eagle
04-29-2003, 10:22 PM
Okay, to rephrase:

"The positioning of forces in SK, which, while well-intentioned, only has created anti-Americanism in SK."
Did that sound better to you?

C'jais
04-30-2003, 08:21 AM
Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle
All in all, the USA needs to be more people-friendly. Their recent bashing of people who disagreed with them, particularly Germany and France, and their weak attempts at diplomacy with Saddam Hussein, have led the world to dislike them even more.

Not to mention the political disaster of calling NK a member of "The Axis of Evil". I mean, how stupid can you possibly get? That little quote has got to number in the top ten of biggest political mistakes during the last 20 years or so. Bush's rhetoric can really get me riled up sometimes.

ShockV1.89
04-30-2003, 08:25 AM
Yeah, Bush has a tendency to throw the "E" word around a little too much. I wish we hadnt elected him... (I voted for the Green Party, mostly because the other two disgusted me that election year).

I also get tired of hearing him say "Weapons of Mass Destruction" over and over. Yes, I know that's what this war is all about. Everyone knows it. We hear it in our sleep.

C'jais
04-30-2003, 08:31 AM
Originally posted by ShockV1.89
With N. Korea, we know for a fact they have nukes, as well as the means to deliver them halfway around the world. Not cool for anyone.

Halfway around would be a bit of an exagerration, but they're capable of hitting San Fran and Japan. Which is adequate, for the purpose I think they have.

I dont think the US is hesitating out of fear of China, although that's probably some part of it. I think we just dont want to be involved in the first real nuclear exchange.

Absolutely right. Once nukes start popping on the eastern shore, it'll lead to global panic on a tremendous, completely unbelievable scale, and secure the downward spiral into WW3.

Still, there's plenty of military reasons not to invade NK. NK has got several hundreds of artillery cannons pointing at Seoul, and an army that rivals the size, training, and equipment of Britain/USA. Add to that, that the terrain itself is far from an easy desert, and that NK's army is likely trained in fighting guerilla warfare and you've got one mean opponent.

And again, USA does so not want to piss off China. Shame really, as China is as much a part of the "bad guys-clique" as Saddam and Il Jong - Tibet, anyone? Human rights? Starvation?

Invariably, people will blame the US.

Perhaps, but if they can calmly disarm NK without use of force, they've more than redeemed themselves in my eyes. A lot is on stake here.