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View Full Version : Bush's "Road map to peace"


Dagobahn Eagle
04-30-2003, 11:04 PM
* Palestinerne must end their acts of violence immediately.

* Palestinians must carry out democratic reforms.

* Israel must lighten restrictions on Palestinians.

* Israel must freeze their construction of new settlements.

* Israel must withdraw from the cities they're blockading.

*Palestine must make a clear statement promising peaceful coexistence between Israelis and Palestinians.

* Israel must make a similar statement promising the founding of a Palestinian state.

(NTB), translated
I think there should be a note on reparations from both sides in there, too, but oh well.

Personally, I think this is a great step towards peace and I hope both leaders will agree to following this "road map'. Palestinians have as much right to sovereignity as the Israelis.

Kain
05-01-2003, 12:04 AM
And it goes to show you how diluted Bush is. Its a good plan, in theory. Just like communism works, in theory.

Dagobahn Eagle
05-01-2003, 12:22 AM
Psyon, this is a forum for, quote, serious discussion, not for bashing without reasoning. Please give reasons for your statements.

Kain
05-01-2003, 12:53 AM
I realize this is for serious discussion. Want my reasoning? Okay...
Bush is, as bluntly as I can state it, an idiot. He wants things that everyone wants, so cheers there. But he does it with threats and invasions. All he's gonna do is get every other country pissed but he wont care because he has his head so far up his own ass he thinks we're invincable, and we're obviously not. Feel better?

btw: its spelled Psion.

Arkum
05-01-2003, 01:58 AM
well, it's a start. we'll see what happens........i doubt that it will work thuogh. arabs have been fighting with each other over resources since they were tribes.

Cosmos Jack
05-01-2003, 03:43 AM
Those are all good ideas. How many other plans have there been for very similar things though? If you read allot of the history of the Middle East you can see allot of the countries were formed by the British. As they pulled out of there colonies and left the Middle East to govern it's self. They carved up the land without any regard to the ethnic population. As the UN did with Palestine and Israel in the late 40s

So now 60 years later we are where we are. It's in an odd parallel to the US expansion of North America. The US never made peace with the Native Americans they all but wiped them out. Sad to say, but that's the only way this is going to be settled is if one wipes the other out, or one just picks up and leaves voluntarily.

There is blood hatred there. The Palestinians raise their kids to hate Jews, and those kids raise their kids to hate Jews. I don't think I will ever live to see the day when I can turn on the news and not hear about a terrorist attack in Israel. :(

SkinWalker
05-01-2003, 05:13 AM
I can't say that I'm a big fan of Bush, but I also have to realize that this "road map" isn't a creation of George W. Bush. It's a creation of his advisory council. Regardless of what I think of the administration, I also think that there is much to be gained by peace in the region, so I think that they are genuine in their effort to put forth the best plan possible.

I still think that the U.S. is more pro-Israel than Palistine, but that would be simply because of the capitalistic advantage more than racism/prejudice.

Having said all of that, I seriously do not think that the plan will work. I think we'll see some initial steps that look promising, but in the end, we'll see a return to the status quo. Looking at it from a Palestinian point of view, you would have to understand that there are at least three generations of people who have been living in occupation. "Occupation" is as much a part of the Palestinian culture as the Ghutra (the head covering). Very many of the Palestinians that are now there know nothing else but occupation. I hazard to guess what sort of stigma this must place upon them and what sorts of resentments must be so deep that a "roadmap" may not be enough to overcome them.

I must agree with Jack, peace will only be an option if one or both cultures is no longer present. But that doesn't have to mean wiping one or the other out. Some common purpose needs to arise that will bring them together. I still say that a complete embargo of BOTH entities will accomplish that.

It's not a Roadmap that we need so much as a Roadblock.

Cosmos Jack
05-01-2003, 05:29 AM
I don't even think cutting them off would work. They would just wallow in there own self-centeredness and tear each other apart.

If the Israelis were left out of check not saying the Palestinians havenít been out of check for far to long. The Israelis would probably totally push them out all together if not wipe them out.

SkinWalker
05-01-2003, 05:48 AM
Perhaps. I just don't see an easy end to it all. My reasoning with an embargo that was equal to both sides was that, once they ran out of resources (food, medical, water, oil, etc.) they would have to work together in order to survive.

There are also many within the Israeli citizenry that are opposed to the treatment Palestinians get from their government. I've been calling them Israeli Abolitionists just to draw a comparisson to the abolitionist movement of American history. These Israelis are passionate about the equal treatment of all people in their country.

They might also be the key to unlocking peace from the shackles of oppression in that region.

I'm taking a class in the fall on Middle East Culture, I expect I'll learn more than I want about all this by time it's done.... ;)

Cosmos Jack
05-01-2003, 06:02 AM
Originally posted by SkinWalker
Perhaps. I just don't see an easy end to it all. My reasoning with an embargo that was equal to both sides was that, once they ran out of resources (food, medical, water, oil, etc.) they would have to work together in order to survive. Usually if people have a deep down hatred for each other they would rather die than to help there enemy. I don't think starving them is the key. That didn't help Iraq. The people that start the trouble and keep it going always live wale regardless of their people.

Starve them than you would have more murders, robbery, and riots to add to the terrorism. These people aren't in the habit of thinking with there heads. Not saying there stupid, but if they were thinking they would honestly set down and talk and actually work something out. Talking is sometimes really hard to do when youíre close-minded to the bigger picture.

C'jais
05-01-2003, 07:27 PM
It's a good for sure, but I don't think it'll become more than an idea. Not because I don't have faith in the Bush administration, but because it's insanely hard to even think about accomplishing, as Jack and Skin pointed out.

Perhaps one of the steps to peace would be for the US to stop supporting Israel. They're handing out 3 billions in military hardware each year to Israel, and believe me, most arabs get furious when they see Israeli tanks with "Made in the USA" painted on them killing Palestinians. At least that could cool off their tempers a bit.

Oh, and replace that Sharon guy with someone more moderate (Darth Vader perhaps?) - he's basically acting like every civilians Palestinian is another terrorist-in-training.

Cosmos Jack
05-01-2003, 10:18 PM
I honestly don't see an end to it. I'm not a trained diplomat and if I were I would just think I could see an end. While there are lots of reasons why there is so much trouble there at the stem of it all is religion.

Muslims do tend to be fanatical not all, but when you think of fanatical religions and people the media has pressed it in your head that it's in the Middle East. Though I know a few freaky christens down the street and at work. Sometimes I wonder when I'm going to get burned at the stake for being a scientific pantheist, but I survive.

Religion is often a culprit or excuse of many bad deeds from the Crusades to the Spanish inquisition to the Salem witch trials, or even WWII. Religion is an underlying factor. People that don't have all the answers or don't have access to them often turn to religion to help them fined there way. The problem with this isn't so much as the religion as the people teaching it.

People can use religion to serve there political and fanatical means. Just look at the Middle East in general. The USA is called the great Satan by some. The Jews are the Devil.. bla bla bla and so on. Islam doesn't say go kill all christens and Jews, but it's easy for educated people to teach uneducated people thatís what it's all about. For 60 years misguided people have been informing misinformed people with bad information.

Reborn Outcast
05-01-2003, 10:25 PM
Well it's good but... I predict that it won't get very far off the launching pad. They militants and the Isreali seem to have a hatred for each other that runs so deep it cannot be stopped. If I am correct in my remembering, didn't Isreal take the land away that now makes up Isreal from Palenstine and other countries? If this is true then the militants won't stop doing this until they get most everything back. At least, thats the way I see it.

If this plan doesn't work or only partially works, Bush will find some way to downplay it as someone elses fault. That's the only thing that I don't like about him. I don't think I have ever heard him admit that he was wrong or that he made a bad decision.

One of the things I would like to see on the plan, even if it doesn't get off the drawing board, is more things devoted to the restoration of the areas that were bombed and destroyed. That might ease tensions a little but noone can be sure...

Cosmos Jack
05-01-2003, 11:02 PM
Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
If I am correct in my remembering, didn't Isreal take the land away that now makes up Isreal from Palenstine and other countries? Not exactly....
http://www.barutiwa.com/cgi-bin/bns/publish/article_33.shtml

Reborn Outcast
05-01-2003, 11:10 PM
Originally posted by Cosmos Jack
Not exactly....
http://www.barutiwa.com/cgi-bin/bns/publish/article_33.shtml

Ah yes I forgot about that part. But still, they HAVE taken a ton of land from everyone.

Cosmos Jack
05-01-2003, 11:30 PM
Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
Ah yes I forgot about that part. But still, they HAVE taken a ton of land from everyone. They need breathing room...;)

Dagobahn Eagle
05-02-2003, 12:50 AM
What CJ said. Everyone should have a state to call home.

Give Palestine their own state, and things will stabilize. It won't become perfect, but violence will go down a huge deal.

But no, I don't see it beyond Bush to mess this up.

Cosmos Jack
05-02-2003, 01:08 AM
Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle
What CJ said. Everyone should have a state to call home.
That's not what I ment .:rolleyes: I was making an insensitive joke to something Hitler once said. "Need Breathing Room" I actually got that off of Star Trek VI, but I think Capt. James T. Kirk is a creditable source :p