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shukrallah
05-14-2003, 08:21 PM
K, most people know im sort of very religious (or whatever you want to call it). And lots of people have asked me stuff, about God's power, evil, stuff like that, and now ive sort of seen things a little differently, and can answere questions a little better. Plus ive been reading a book, which seems to have a lot of good things in it. Ive learned, ive been wronge about certain things too. So now im going to try and correct these mistakes, and explain things to the people who challenge God.

Evil

Ive heard many people say, God made everything, so he must of made evil, then they say they dont want to follow a god like that.
But now I know God didnt make evil, before I didnt really know where evil came from, so I just said, Satan made evil, when he turned evil. But i was sort of right/wrong.

Its all about free will, and Satan. Yeah, weird huh? But heres the thing, Satan was the highest angel right?? God gave all the angels free will, icluding the will to rebell against him, if they so choose. Of course they could never overthrow God, but they could try. And thats what Satan did. You see, free will means, you can do what ever you want, including sin. So when Satan sinned, he became evil. Satan became to proud, because of his high position, and wanted more, so thats why he did what he did. He had everything, except ultimate power, he was the highest angel! And now he has lost everything! That explains it better, huh?

So, can Satan, and/or his followers go to Heaven?

No, my simple answere was, he screwed up, now he must be punished. Satan is now without an excuse, he rebelled, willingly, and so did his followers (demons). So, he became the essence of evil (this probably should have been put up there, but anyways). He has no knowledge of good. You know Satan, thoguht he had won the war, when Christ was crucified. If he had known, that it would deliver us from sins, he would have stopped the crucifiction. Understand? Why would Satan want to lose his followers (us, human beings, sinners) he didnt knwo that the crucifiction would save us from our sins.

Adam and Eve's temptation

Why was Satan allowed to test them. If they hadnt sinned no one would go to Hell right? True. We would be in the Garden of Eden. They had been made with Holy hearts, but also, free will. There hearts had to be tested. And sadly they failed.

Why is God, God?

why does he rule? easy, he is God, no one is strong enough to challenge him. (name someone you know who can challenge God and win!) he made everything (hey you made it, its your right?), And he has enough power to back up his claims.

probably one the most important questions:

Is God all powerfull, or is His sovereignty limited???

Hmmm, interesting question. My answere has always been, Yes he is all powerful, and he has no limititations, right? Thats sort of what ive said right? Well, looks like i was wronge..... :confused: :confused: (never thought you would hear me say that huh? I didnt think id say that, lets hope i can explain this right....)

God is all powerful, (i was right about that). He can do what he wants, but he chooses not to be... or he limits his sovereignty. His holiness limits his sovereignty. Yeah, I know weird, but shouldnt God do what is always right? If he didnt limit himself, couldnt he destroy the world *just like that*??? this is our proof that God will always do right. His love limits his sovereignty.God is love. This is so, he only punishhes lovingly. If he was not limited by love, he might get so angry, he might destroy us. This is proof that he is not a tyrant, or any kind of evil dictator. He cannot disown himself, or contradict himself. When people say hge made evil, he didnt, because that would mean the verse in the Bible which says God is love, would be wrong. Also free will limits it. He gave us free will, if he controled everything, we couldnt have free will. He lets things happen. (which i have said before) Sort of like, how you can thwart his will, say for instence, He says to do this, and you say no. So is he still in control? yeah, of course. Just because one person turns away, doesnt mean he just gives up. He always has a plan, and knows the next step. So then that means, that there are millions of possiblitlys. Think about the ammount of times that some people have disobeyed God, but more doors open up. Each pathway in our lives creates a different possible future, and God has a plan for each of them.

Why are humans here in the first place?

Like ive said before, God was lonley. He wanted somethign to fellowship with. In other words, he wanted a friend. But how fun is a robot? How good of a friend is a robot? it cant think, or feel, or laugh, or anything, it can only do what it is told to do. Thats not a friend, thats a slave, basically. So he gave us free will. A controlled being wouldnt make him happy. Only real love (that means, not forced love) can make him happy.


Jesus' pain

This is something ive heard a lot. "Christ didnt go through that much pain, thousands died on crosses, thats the same punishment Christ got" Yeah he died on a cross, but there was mroe punishment than that. Ive wanted to say this for a while, but never really had the chance to. (or at least since ive known about it)

There was more than just a cross. (this is a little gross, and lots of people dont like hearing about it) After some research i found out about this stuff. After this, I dont want anyone to ever say, Christ didnt go through a lot of pain.


1) He was beaten, not just a normal beating though. The men who beat him put on knuckled fists, the minimum ammount of men beating someone was six, so they beat him with knuckled fists! Imagine, being beaten by six or more men with knuckled fists! That would hurt a lot!

Mathew 26:67- Then the people there spat in Jesus's face and beat him with their fists. Others slapped him.

2) Then they whipped him. Just a normal whip hurts, but this was way worse, they put metal at the end of it. They whipped his back, shoulders, and legs. This kind of whipping caused blood to just pour down him. By the time they are done, the skin was just hanging off of him, and blood was pouring out. People could see his organs inside. Thats not what any paintings of him show carrying the cross huh?

Mathew 27:26- Then he set Barabbas free. But Jesus was beaten with whips and handed over to the soldiers to be crucified.

3) They put a crown of thorns on him, and put a red robe on him. Then they beat him with a stick on his head.

Mathew 27:28-30 They took off his clothes and put a red robe on him. Using thorny branches, they made a crown, put it on his head, and put a stick in his right hand. Then the soldiers bowed before Jesus and made fun of him, saying "Hail, King of the Jews!" They spat on Jesus. Then they took his stick and began to beat him on the head.

4) Then they crucified him. They took big nails, and nailed them through his hands, and feet to the cross. Imagine two huge nails going straight through your hands and feet! Then he got thirsty, and they gave him venegar to drink. Then when he died, one of the soldiers stuck a spear through his side, and blood and water came out. So he was dead.


So thats it, thats what he went through, not to mention people laughing at him while he was dying.

pretty bad huh?

ill post more later. Feel free to ask some questions, ill od my best to answere them.

-lukeskywalker1


"Scriptures quoted from The Holy Bible, New Century Version,
copyright (C) 1987, 1988, 1991 by Word Publishing, Dallas, Texas
75039. Used by permission."

Some info was rewritten, in my own words from the book "What every Christian Ought to Know, by, Richard S. Taylor.

Tyrion
05-14-2003, 08:53 PM
Couldnt god simply use his powers to make himself happy? Without letting us have the option of damning us to eternal hell.

Besides, he sure isnt happy when more than half of the people he made goes to hell.

shukrallah
05-14-2003, 09:06 PM
He could, but what beats having a true friend? We had the option, but so did Satan, again...think about it. To truly be a friend and love someone, you have to have free will. We cant be forced, and have true love can we? Free will brings sin, as I said before, which has been shown to us by Satan, the Demons, and us, human beings. We dont have anything to stop us from sinning. The law can only do so much. But of course, just like the law, we are going to be punished for our sins. Doesnt the court send you to jail for stealing, or murder, and countless othert things? Its just like that with God, except, we can be forgiven, and we can escape doom because Jesus died for us.

In the end, free will gives us the option to sin. Satan fell, and he will pay the price, and we fell to, but, we have the option to turn back to God, or stay with our sinful ways. The choice is ours, its right there, take it!

back to questions:

Did Jesus really rise formt he dead?

Very good question right?
Very hard to prove too, but read this, I get some of my stuff from here:

http://www.fehq.org/public/arose.htm

-lukeskywalker1

C'jais
05-14-2003, 09:11 PM
What makes you think God is real?

It's surely not because a book told you, is it? How does God feel to you?

Mandalorian54
05-14-2003, 09:16 PM
That was really good lukeskywalker1, I'm glad to hear your beliefs and I think you did a good job of portraying them. Belief is somthing only you can choose for yourself, but I think you are mistaken in a few aspects.

First of all you already know I believe we don't have free will. Let me share a simple example of such. First of all are will has freedom, but ultimately it is a slave to our likes and dislikes. If you do not like the color red, sure you can choose to where the red shirt, but will you? NO! Your will does what your likes and dislikes determin. And SIN can influence likes and dislikes, for example Sin causes us to HATE God, and if you go up to a stranger on the street who has never heard the Gospel do you think he will accept christ right there? Not unless God has somewhat revealed himself and placed interest in the man. I'm not sure about you but I've never encountered a scripture saying we have free will.

I also believe God IS all powerfull. If God wanted to he could destroy the world, and he will on the FINAL day. God had a plan for everything, Satan's rebellion, Adams first sin, God knew that it was going to happen and he let it according to his ultimate and HOLY plan.

I'm sure we'll get even deeper into this and I await your reply. I also hope we can enjoy one anothers views in healthy discussion.

My sig is a song writen by a recent convert in the 70s, it's quite a famous song, I'm sure your pastor'll have heard of it.

I think I'll also bring up some verses in my next post to help clarify my views.

---------------------------------

What makes me think GOD is real? Well creation for one, the unique and complicated world before us can only have been created. And through prayer I have gotten to know him and have a good realationship with him, sure I can't see him, but I can feel him. And Jesus' death and resurection, Jesus did rise from the dead, it was recorded by 300 eye witnesses, not one of them ever said they had lied, not even when it meant death. And miracles for another, I know a woman who had a sinus infection, three different doctors said she would need surgery and it was cured at a revival in 10 minuets. And it's not just her word, it was documented.

shukrallah
05-14-2003, 09:20 PM
Originally posted by C'jais
What makes you think God is real?

It's surely not because a book told you, is it? How does God feel to you?

Wow, that really is a hard question. There is no real evidence that he exists, unless he actually presents himself to us, or we see his power, like back in biblical times.

But I just know. Nothign else makes any sense. I just know... its hard ot explain. How else could all this around you be here? Its all faith. Millions of people have followed Him. Look at Paul and Peter, they both died for Him (I list them, because they are the only ones I can think of right now). Paul got his head cut off, and Peter got hung on a cross upside down! Why? because they believed in Him, and were ready to die for Him. There has to be something behind that!

God is there, you can just feel him. His spirit lives within us.


Another incedent, look at Columbine. There was a girl there, the shooters asked her if she believed in God, she said yes, and they shot her dead. Right in the head I think. She knew they would shoot her, but she said yes anyways.


-lukeskywalker1

Mandalorian54
05-14-2003, 09:28 PM
Look at Paul and Peter, they both died for Him (I list them, because they are the only ones I can think of right now).

Eleven of the twelve apostles died of persecution, all of them except John, who died in exile.

I just thought of something else, remember when Jesus foretold of Peter's three betrails? Jesus knew it would happen and foretold it, but when it happened and Peter remembered did he blame Jesus? No, Peter accepted full responsibuility. The same goes for Judas, who hung himself after he realized just how terrible a deed he had commited.

shukrallah
05-14-2003, 09:35 PM
Originally posted by Mandolorian54
That was really good lukeskywalker1, I'm glad to hear your beliefs and I think you did a good job of portraying them. Belief is somthing only you can choose for yourself, but I think you are mistaken in a few aspects.

First of all you already know I believe we don't have free will. Let me share a simple example of such. First of all are will has freedom, but ultimately it is a slave to our likes and dislikes. If you do not like the color red, sure you can choose to where the red shirt, but will you? NO! Your will does what your likes and dislikes determin. And SIN can influence likes and dislikes, for example Sin causes us to HATE God, and if you go up to a stranger on the street who has never heard the Gospel do you think he will accept christ right there? Not unless God has somewhat revealed himself and placed interest in the man. I'm not sure about you but I've never encountered a scripture saying we have free will.

I also believe God IS all powerfull. If God wanted to he could destroy the world, and he will on the FINAL day. God had a plan for everything, Satan's rebellion, Adams first sin, God knew that it was going to happen and he let it according to his ultimate and HOLY plan.

I'm sure we'll get even deeper into this and I await your reply. I also hope we can enjoy one anothers views in healthy discussion.


Yeah, but then that would mean, that God has just chosen anyone he wants to go to Heaven.

We can interfer with God's will. Remember, he was going ot destroy Sadamm and Gamorrah, but Abraham (i think, maybe lot) pleaded with him not to destroy it. God said if he found at least 10 good men there, he wouldnt destroy it. but he didnt so, he destroyed it.

By contorling everything, he becomes a tyrant. That would mean, that he made Satan. That would mean, that He made evil, because he made Satan turn against him. But then that would mean that God is not totally love, which sort of makes the bible untrue. So we must have free will. If we are all mindless robots, then why do we disagree? Why doesnt everyone just serve God. In the end, if we dont have free will, God is just a pupeteer, playing with us. That doesnt seem like the God I know, who says God is love.

-lukeskywalker1

shukrallah
05-14-2003, 09:41 PM
Originally posted by Mandolorian54
Eleven of the twelve apostles died of persecution, all of them except John, who died in exile.

I just thought of something else, remember when Jesus foretold of Peter's three betrails? Jesus knew it would happen and foretold it, but when it happened and Peter remembered did he blame Jesus? No, Peter accepted full responsibuility. The same goes for Judas, who hung himself after he realized just how terrible a deed he had commited.

True, but like I said before, God knows every possibility. God Jesus and the Holy Ghost are one, but they are also three different beings. Its really confusing.

Im going ot change something. God does sometime intervene with our lives, or take control,but only for a short period of time, even with non-believers. He will sometimes use people to do his work, but they wont really know it. But its temporary.

On the other hand, you can ask God to take control of your life. Im not talking about make you into a slave, but to help you out. To sort of make you into the proper person he wants you to be. To reach almost perfection.

-lukeskywalker1

Mandalorian54
05-14-2003, 09:48 PM
Yeah, but then that would mean, that God has just chosen anyone he wants to go to Heaven.

Ya God did choose who he wanted to go to heaven.

I don't know why he chose some and not others, He has a plan and it is for the best. It may sound unfair to send some to hell when others get to go to heaven, but it's perfectly fair, we all deserve to go to hell. What's unfair is that he chose some to go to heaven when they didn't deserve it.


Take these verses for example. Matthew 12:33-37


'Either make the tree good, and it's fruit good; or else make th tree corrupt, and it's fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth evil things. But I say unto you, that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgement. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.'

God doesn't make us sin,
------------------
'no one ties fruit on a tree's branches, not even God'

Man's will-free yet bound PG.2
------------------
we sin of our own nature,
------------------
'The tree bears its own fruit. Evil men sin voluntarily'
PG.2
------------------

Dagobahn Eagle
05-14-2003, 10:00 PM
Why can't all the religous questions be in one thread already??

Anyways:

Evil
Free will.

So, can Satan, and/or his followers go to Heaven? [/I]
I don't care, because frankly, I don't believe in the litteral interpretation of Hell anyway.

Adam and Eve's temptation
He didn't even know they had eaten the apple until later. He just didn't notice, according to the Bible.

Why is God God?
Do you know the gods are still there?

Is God all powerfull, or is His sovereignty limited???
I agree with you, he chooses to do what he wants to.

Why are humans here in the first place?
Like... the scientifically provenevolution?

Jesus' pain
He went trough pain, but as he is a recognized prophet, of course he got so much attention. AND the other stuff you said.

Just a side note:
When reading the Bible, read at least two translations of it (as in both the English and the Norwegian one, if you're a Scandi). Why? Because the Bibles are translated differently.

In one bible, I believe, it says: "I am the only God. Have no other gods than me."

In the Norse bibles, it just says: "Have no other gods than me."

So, did he say there's only one god, or didn't he? I suggest to everyone who consider seriously analyzing the Bible that they ask someone what the original language litteraly says.

Case of point: The Q'Uran (spelling?). In the French and Danish q'uran, it says that women should cover their faces. The Arabic q'uran, though, never mentions faces at all. It does tell women to cover their breasts, and to lower their faces, but never to cover their faces.

shukrallah
05-14-2003, 10:03 PM
We have the choice to turn to him. We have free will. Thats why Satan turned. Whats the point of making some people just to torture them? That doesnt seem fair to me. But God has his plans. But then again, we have to admitt our sins on judgement day, whats the point of that, when you say we dont have free will. That would mean, some one is forcing me type this right now.

Then what is freedom if we dont have free will? Free will means we can make our own choices. Not having free will makes us just like our computers for example. We would need commands to run. We have commands, but unlike computers, we can break the law (the 10 commandments). Why would God make just "puppets" it doesnt make sence. That would mean hes just playing around. Entertainment gets boring after a while. Im sure you have been bored of your new toy, or video game. Or you have gotten bored with your favorite thing. How boring is it when you control what happens? Like a video game, wouldnt that be boring if you could control all your enemies?

Onl through Christ can we be saved. So they have an impact on our lives, but they dont completly control it. We are supposed to obey God. Look at Jonah, he ran from God. Maybe that was God's will, but still Jonah had a choice.

-lukeskywalker1

shukrallah
05-14-2003, 10:16 PM
Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle
Why can't all the religous questions be in one thread already??

I don't care, because frankly, I don't believe in the litteral interpretation of Hell anyway.
[/size]

Well its there. Do you believe in Heaven? You cant take the good with out the bad.

Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle
He didn't even know they had eaten the apple until later. He just didn't notice, according to the Bible.

Who says he didnt know? He asked, cant you ask questions you already know the answer to? Remember, the Garden was a big test, like I explained.


Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle
Why can't all the religous questions be in one thread already??
Just so you know, I wasnt asking questions....

Do you know the gods are still there?

There are no other gods


Just a side note:
When reading the Bible, read at least two translations of it (as in both the English and the Norwegian one, if you're a Scandi). Why? Because the Bibles are translated differently.

In one bible, I believe, it says: "I am the only God. Have no other gods than me."

In the Norse bibles, it just says: "Have no other gods than me."

So, did he say there's only one god, or didn't he? I suggest to everyone who consider seriously analyzing the Bible that they ask someone what the original language litteraly says.


He was talking about material possessions. Like your TV. If all you do is watch tv, constantly, and you have to be with your TV all the time, thats like worshipping it, therefor, it becomes a false god.

Anyways, he was also saying not to make any statues or whatever, and call them God. He is God, not a peice of wood or stone.

When he wrote the commandments, that was after he lead the israelites out of Egypt. The Egyptains had gods, they were stone, so yeah, i guess there are other gods, but they are not real.

Ill get some more info on the bibles translations. But right now ill say, there is no real way to know about the translations, unless you learn Greek or Hebrew and read them for yourself (the origianls)

-lukeskywalker1

shukrallah
05-14-2003, 10:23 PM
Sorry about the triple post, but this was interesting:

http://www.fehq.org/public/bibprof.htm

lukeskywalker1

Dagobahn Eagle
05-14-2003, 10:48 PM
Well its there.
To quote the Crucible:
"Just that you haven't seen [it], doesn't have to mean it doesn't exist!"
"[I could also say that] there are dragons with five legs in my house, just that no one has ever seen it.":D

You can't just say "well it's there", IMO. And yes, I've got free will, so I perfectly well can have the good without having the bad.

Who says he didnt know? He asked, cant you ask questions you already know the answer to? Remember, the Garden was a big test, like I explained.
Point.
quote:

Just so you know, I wasnt asking questions....
The religious posts, then, smarta*s:p. Pleased now?

There are no other gods
And you can prove this how?

Okay, instead of throwing your religon in my face, answer the question I asked.

So to rephrase so that it won't be below your dignity or whatever to answer it:
"Do you know that God is still around?" Bible never said he wouldn't retire, did it? And he might have been hit by a car.

They were discovered in 1947. They include a complete copy of Isaiah and fragments of almost every book in the O.T. They are dated around 100-200 B.C.
Finally christians who have a belief in dating methods. I guess that means they're also ready to admit evolution happened.
LS1, that made my day. Thanks:)

shukrallah
05-14-2003, 11:26 PM
You can't just say "well it's there", IMO. And yes, I've got free will, so I perfectly well can have the good without having the bad.

i know it wasnt exactly my best answere, but still, ill get to that later in my Q&A. i was just about to post some.


The religious posts, then, smarta*s. Pleased now?

LOL


And you can prove this how?

if you read my whole post, i said this was wronge....


So to rephrase so that it won't be below your dignity or whatever to answer it:
"Do you know that God is still around?" Bible never said he wouldn't retire, did it? And he might have been hit by a car.



K, I think thats not a really good question, but ill answere.

PSALM 121: verse 4 "He who guards Israel never rests or sleeps."

Also he promised he would never forsake us, and since when has God made a promise and broken it?



Finally christians who have a belief in dating methods. I guess that means they're also ready to admit evolution happened.
LS1, that made my day. Thanks

So what? I believe in dates, the bible didnt happen just yesterday. I dont believe in all dating methods.

And about evolution, The bible says God made the world, doesnt mention evolution, although very unlikly, it might have, but its doubtful. Darwin himself denounced that theory, and so are many scientists today. Thats something they dont teach you in science class. Lets just stick with, evolution cant be proven, and neither can God made the world, I believe He did, but its all faith. Its a debate thats happend for years, and years, and years..........

Anyways, a biochemist once said that the human cell structure is so complex it had to have a designer. Come on, they say we are 99.9% the same as a worm. So the only difference between me and a worm is .1% wow, I feel special....

Dagobahn Eagle
05-14-2003, 11:37 PM
Lets just stick with, evolution cant be proven, and neither can God made the world, I believe He did, but its all faith. Its a debate thats happend for years, and years, and years...
Can't be proven? We have evidence, you know:p.

Want to debate it? Because if you are, I'm more than happy to challenge your points. However, I'm not going to write a post about it if no one's there to listen.

Also he promised he would never forsake us, and since when has God made a promise and broken it?
My mistake:).

shukrallah
05-15-2003, 12:01 AM
Back to questions:

Who is God?

Its not "what" its who. He is a person, hes just super powered, i guess you could say. He is the one who made the world, and everything in it. You should pretty much know about him, i mean, who doesnt.... but if you have questions, ill answere.

Who is Satan?

K, you should know who he is too, but...

His very name means "enemy" He was called Lucifer, but ive already said his story......now he is Satan, or the Devil, or Beezlebul. Whatever you call him.

hey, if you look at DEVIL, and take out the D you get EVIL.... lol
yeah, dumb I know, but still....


Heaven

Heaven is the home of God basically. Its not that place in cartoons with all the clouds and stuff. Its sort of a reward for God followers. Ill get more into that later.


Hell

Cant tell the good without bad, yes Hell is a real place. Its not your traditional fire like on cartoons. Hell is the home of the Devil and his angels, and the future home of sinners.

Yeah i know everyone is going to ask why does God send people to Hell. Even though ive answered it at least 50 times, and other people have too, people dont want to accept the fact that, Hell is real, and if you dont watch out, you could go there.

The reason people go to Hell is because of there sins. Like I said above, its like the law, if I shoot you, will I get punished? of course, unless im lucky enough to get away, or lie in court. You cant lie to God, so theres no way of getting out of it. If you break the law you go to jail, if you dont follow God's commands, you go to Hell.

It sounds awful, but its true, and simple.

How to not go to Hell

Im not going to make the same mistake I have in the past and only tell people about Hell, and forget how to escape. Once your there, your there, but you can totally avoid going there altogether.

Its a combination of things on how this works, its so cool, God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit each do there part. You see, the only way to the Father (God) is through the Son (Jesus) so what you need to do is turn to him. Admitt it, your a sinner, your sorry, and that your willing to let Jesus come into your life, and save you. Now you sort of have your prayer line, God will listen to your prayers, he will forgive you of your sins. You wont be perfect but you will be a better person. Ask God to help you where your weaknesses are (like say I have a problem with lying, I could ask God to help me not to lie, then Ill have to do my part and do my best not to lie, and God will guide me) Eventually the Holy Spirit will come down to you, and you will be born again, in the spirit. Then just get baptized and that will wash away your old sins, and you will be clean (not physically, but spiritually)

Of course, you have to believe, or none of this will happen, you need faith. Without faith, whats the point of trying?

Falling away

Sadly yes, people can fall away. Its really sad. Do you best to keep following God, and you will keep growing stronger in the spirit. Dont fall away, Jesus said, its worse for those who knew, and quit, than for those who never knew at all. That was in my own words.



For non-believers, the only way to really experience God, and his wonders, is to try this stuff out for yourself. Otherwise, no matter what I tell you, unless God intervenes, chances are, you wont turn.

Ill tell you, before i was a christian, my dad asked me about church. I told him, "Why would I want to waste an hour of my time, listening to stuff that makes no sence at all?" He wanted me to just try it and see, but i didnt want to know. So no, I didnt go to church. I stayed at home and did what I wanted. I used to believe that as long as I stay a good person, and dont commit and major crimes, ill go to Heaven. (Oh but only if it was so simple!!!) Eventually, I had an old bible, I just started reading one day, the table of contents attracted me. I kept reading, and reading, and I was hooked. Weird. Then one day my Mom told me something had happend to her. She had become a christian. I saw a change in her, something was so different. When I found out, and i saw how she wasnt that mean screeming and hollering woman anymore, I believed it right away, since i was already reading the bible, i figured why not go further. Now I go to chruch for like 2 1/2 hours at the least, ive spent an entire day at church before, on mulitple ocassions. And even today, just typing stuff like this im amazed at all of his wonders, and powers.

Dont know if that means anything to anyone, but it just explains, I didnt buy into all of this stuff either.

-lukeskywalker1

shukrallah
05-15-2003, 12:19 AM
Can't be proven? We have evidence, you know.

A few bones and fossils around on other continents. Many people say the flood (With Noah) never happend, but they say the earth was at once completly covered by water....

Heres what i think-
Ive always wondered, how did Cain have kids when there were no other people around? Could possibly be those other people, like the big long A word thing that i cant remember, and a C one too. Lucy was one of their names. I think they were just different people wandering around. A sort of animal. Maybe normal people mixed with them? Who knows?

But anyways, how do we know they werent just some deformed people. Or what about weathering and erosion? Say the skulls got screwed up? Or then again, people had really weird ways of doing things back then, I mean they used to knock holes in theire heads to relieve a headache, how do we know something like that didnt happen? Or then again, they say we came from monkeys right? So maybe those people turned into monkeys?

Maybe we should look at the ancient Egyptians, they preserved their people so well, they still have flesh on them. They look like us though dont they? Just wondering, because I dont know.

I think Noah's Flood started the Ice age, its perfect, the world was covered in water. When most of it dried, people went on dry land. Eventually it freezed up....
Could be wrong about all of this though. I didnt design this thread to be a debate, but to be a teaching.

anyways, who cares, most people spend time trying to better mankind, but they dont try to better themselves in the long run.

-lukeskywalker1

Mandalorian54
05-15-2003, 01:09 AM
Let me talk now about Evil.

There are two main popular views among scollars today, God did in fact create evil, or evil is not an "element" but the absence of good.

God created good, when Lucifer became proud he abandoned the good or removed the good, and became evil.

I believe the evil is the absence of good view, it just seems to make more sense to me.

And free will, not having a free will is diferent from not having a will at all. You seem to be confusing my bielief of not having a free will with not having a will at all.

I think our will is defined by certain characteristics and not entirely free. But we can still make desicions, God doesn't make all the decisions for us. Like I mentioned before:
'no one ties fruit on a tree's branches, not even God'

We chose to sin, but GOD knows what we will chose before we chose it, and God gives us a concience to help us prevail over temptations.

quote:
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Lets just stick with, evolution cant be proven, and neither can God made the world, I believe He did, but its all faith. Its a debate thats happend for years, and years, and years...
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Can't be proven? We have evidence, you know.

There is NO proof of evolution, thus says all the evolutionists and scientists of today's modern science. I heard it from a scientist, so don't tell me you know better.

Carbod dating, musium skeletal display, it's all just baloni. (I don't know how to spell baloni:p )

Evolution has been disproven, why do people still cling to it?

ShockV1.89
05-15-2003, 01:18 AM
Finally christians who have a belief in dating methods. I guess that means they're also ready to admit evolution happened.

Nice reversal! :D Very impressive, DE.

I have a question for you, LS1, and any others who care to respond.

Dont fall away, Jesus said, its worse for those who knew, and quit, than for those who never knew at all. That was in my own words.

This, right here, is an implication that those who are never expose to your "true path" will go to hell. I know it's not exactly what you're saying, but it's certainly implied.

How on earth is that fair? "What's that, you never heard of Jesus Christ? Too bad, off to hell you go!"

Furthermore, do you really expect people who may have been raised from birth to be agnostic or atheist to suddenly convert simply because the bible said so, or some pastor said so, or you said so? It seems so, as you believe that they will go to hell for being raised a certain way.

I cant support this, and I cant believe that God would be so stupid and closed minded as to set up a system in which those who were made to be a certain way by powers not their own would be condemned for the sins of the fathers. Me, I've been raised to question everything I see. My parents are Roman Catholic, but they are this mostly because it's how they were raised. And they know this, and they want me to come to my own conclusions. To that end, they taught me to question everything and come to my own conclusions.

And wow, looking at my keystroke clocker in the corner, I typed that at 128 WPM. Damn.... :D

Vagabond
05-15-2003, 02:38 AM
lukeskywalker1, regarding one of your most recent posts - Who is God/Satan - Heaven/Hell - you're making the assumption that these entities and places exist - and therefore discussing them as fact is without basis.

Taking a position as a believer or an atheist takes a leap of faith, as there is no concrete evidence, nor experiment that can be run, which proves or disproves the existence of a super-natural being, be it good, evil, or indifferent.

Before responding with, "But I do believe - I have faith...", first ask yourself why. Is it because that's the way you were raised? If so, then what if you were raised in the wild. Presuming God exists, merely for the sake of argument, would your blissfully ignorant life in the wild give you a different outlook on the existence of God? Would you have perhaps reached alternate conclusions on religion, if any at all? And if so, would these other beliefs have any impact at all on whether or not there truly is a God?

The reason I pose these hypothetical questions to you is to make you think about the way you were raised, and how the absence of certain information during your education might have lead you to different conclusions on religion.

If we take a step closer to what was likely a significant part of that which shaped your beliefs - the bible - let's remove some of the mysticism, and look at the bible for what it is: a book, written over the course of several hundred years, partly by men who claimed to be prophets from God, and partly by men who wrote about the life of Jesus over a hundred years after he died.

Let that sink it. Think about the credibility and accuracy of such a book, not in terms of a "holy" book, but in terms of a book, period. Just humor me and be academic and detached about it for a moment. Think to yourself, what if someone came up to you today and asked you to write a book about the life of a person you never knew, and only later found out that this book you wrote would become the foundation of one of the world's major religions. Lest we forget that men thousands of years ago were just as corrupt and naive as they are today.

And just for the time being keeping angels, prophets, and other improvable divine injective out of the picture, the bible, when viewed at from this perspective doesn't possess the same stature.

In closing, I'm not trying to tell you what you should believe. What I'm encouraging you to do is to not simply believe in God because:

1. That's the way you were raised - that's a cop-out. Take responsibility for your own beliefs. Understand what you're believing, and don't just blindly follow.

2. Out of fear of going to hell - being a hostage to belief doesn't make God any more real. It also adds credibility to the use of threats to get one's way.

3. Because you don't want to be a "Doubting Thomas" - while an interesting story, it's exactly the type of manipulative tale that one would tell if trying to win someone's trust - to get them to accept the irrational or improvable to prove that you aren't a doubter. Don't be manipulated.

Having said all that, I urge you to take a fresh look at everything, and believe what you believe, independent of everything else. Look at it through your own eyes, and only your eyes, free of the chains of any past pre-conceptions.

Good luck.

BrodieCadden
05-15-2003, 05:08 AM
"you're making the assumption that these entities and places exist - and therefore discussing them as fact is without basis."

Of course he is. What was the point of that statement? To use the word "fact" and "basis"? Come on.

"1. That's the way you were raised - that's a cop-out. Take responsibility for your own beliefs. Understand what you're believing, and don't just blindly follow."

There are very few people who actually believe what their parents believe in. Most children and teenagers rebel against their parents and the best way to do this is to challenge their stance on religion and ethics. Using "it is because of the way you were raised is why you are religious" is a rather absurd statement. What about children who are raised in an Atheistic household? Does that make them blind followers of Atheism? Running with your logic it does.

I was raised in a semi religious household (my father was a Roman Catholic man and in his later years was very devout) and I was an atheist for 24 years. A strict Atheist too. I know of no children who become religious in adult life because their parents were, but I can name a helluva lot who did the contrary.

Vagabond: do you understand what you are not believing? Or are you just blindly following? Just as ignorance should not be synonymous with religion, rationality should not be synonymous with atheism: I know many rational Christians and many ignorant Atheists: avoid stereotyping, makes ya look ignorant.

"If we take a step closer to what was likely a significant part of that which shaped your beliefs - the bible - let's remove some of the mysticism, and look at the bible for what it is: a book, written over the course of several hundred years, partly by men who claimed to be prophets from God, and partly by men who wrote about the life of Jesus over a hundred years after he died.

Let that sink it. Think about the credibility and accuracy of such a book, not in terms of a "holy" book, but in terms of a book, period. Just humor me and be academic and detached about it for a moment. Think to yourself, what if someone came up to you today and asked you to write a book about the life of a person you never knew, and only later found out that this book you wrote would become the foundation of one of the world's major religions. Lest we forget that men thousands of years ago were just as corrupt and naive as they are today."

Your information is a bit off there: firstly, the Gospels and their respective Epistles and Revelations were all written by those who knew Jesus and were his Apostles, therefore it was within at most a 30-40 year time period after his death: not the hyperbolic "hundreds".

Viewed from a historical and archaeological viewpoint, the Bible has been proven to be a very academically reliable ancient text.

Yes men were just as corrupt and naive as they are today, but you are only seeing the surface. Look at the New Testament: A completely pacifist book. Turn the other cheek, love the pagan doctrine, et cetera. Remember it is recorded that all the NT writers were martyred (Peter was crucified on an upside down cross, I believe Simon was dragged through the streets of Alexandria hanging from the back of a horse and cart) for refusing to deny the credibility of the Gospels. Thousands of Christians were murdered in the Colosseum (eaten by lions and tigers and crocodiles) again for refusing to deny the Bibles basic truths. Quite a sacrifice to make for a fictional book, that these people would have KNOWN was fictional.

It is illogical to think that the very writers of a fictional book, that only garnered them exile and ultimately death, would write such a book when there was no personal gain. One man doing such a thing is improbable enough, but 12 men dieing for a self made lie is quite a stretch of logic. One of them at least would certainly stand up and say "alright, he didn't come back".

"Don't be manipulated.

Having said all that, I urge you to take a fresh look at everything, and believe what you believe, independent of everything else. Look at it through your own eyes, and only your eyes, free of the chains of any past pre-conceptions.

Good luck."

I took that advice many years ago. Maybe you should take it too.

Homuncul
05-15-2003, 05:31 AM
Good point Vaga. But unfortunately you won't succeed. It's impossible. Christians are really stubborn about their faith being true. And as I said many times when faith is concerned a logical argument is not the whole thing. I'm like...dispaired about it.

BrodieCadden
05-15-2003, 05:35 AM
You are just as stubborn as the Christians you so unfairly stereotpye, the only difference is the Christians here don't find a need to insult you by saying it. Just as I admit I may be wrong, you should too, and stop being so "stubborn" about it. Get off your high horse and make a contribution. That sort of rubbish you just posted was so stereotpyical and hypocritical, I am, shall we say, in "dispair".

ShockV1.89
05-15-2003, 07:55 AM
the only difference is the Christians here don't find a need to insult you by saying it.

Stick around.... :rolleyes:

Vagabond
05-15-2003, 10:23 AM
To begin with, BrodieCadden I wasn't even talking with you, and am not interested in having a discussion with someone who isn't contributing, and is only arguing for the sake of arguing. I will address a few of your inaccurate assumptions before closing this line of discussion with you.

Originally posted by BrodieCadden
...There are very few people who actually believe what their parents believe in...

Do you seriously believe that, or have you merely deluded yourself into believing that? Hmmm, then I wonder why most Hindus have Hindu parents, and most Jews have Jewish parents, and most Muslims have Muslim parents, and most Christians have Christian parents, etc, etc, etc?

Any credibility that I might have afforded you completely evaporated for me when you started off with blatantly absurd statement.

I never said all people automatically believe what their parents believe. But the rational person would easily understand that children tend to believe what their parents teach them - that's the nature of the parent/child relationship.

...Vagabond: do you understand what you are not believing?...

Do you? I've never stated what I do, nor don't believe in. You're making another assumption, clouded by the very stereotypes that you so easily accuse others of.

To be quite honest, I don't feel the need to share my beliefs with you.

...the Gospels and their respective Epistles and Revelations were all written by those who knew Jesus and were his Apostles, therefore it was within at most a 30-40 year time period after his death: not the hyperbolic "hundreds"...

The bible was assembled from several books, written by different authors, over a hundred years after his death. Some of the books made it into the bible, while others did not. The decisions regarding which books made it into the bible were made by men. Those books that made it in were those that did not contradict one another - and some of these divine books were contradictory; furthermore, books that painted Jesus in a light that were not totally wholesome were also omitted - there were books describing the early childhood of Jesus and detailed his tantrums and use of "god-like" powers during his tantrums, which were not included.

And it was over a hundred years after Jesus’ death before the bible was ever assembled.

...Viewed from a historical and archaeological viewpoint, the Bible has been proven to be a very academically reliable ancient text...

That's an opinion. If anything, the new testament is the only part of the Bible that could have any hope of having described events that actually occurred.

The old testament is contradictory on the first two pages of Genesis. The first page dealing with the days of creation describes, I believe on the 4th or 5th day, that the animals were all created. The following day man is created. Turn the page, and then we go into more detail about the Garden of Eden. The story goes that Adam is walking around the Garden and starts to become lonely. Here's the contradiction: to provide Adam with companionship, before creating Eve, God first created the animals. So there you go - the "divine" old testament, product of prophets off to a roaring, contradictory start - neither accurate, nor reliable. So, if it can't get it straight on the first two pages, what other inaccuracies lie buried within its voluminous text?

...Thousands of Christians were murdered in the Colosseum (eaten by lions and tigers and crocodiles) again for refusing to deny the Bibles basic truths. Quite a sacrifice to make for a fictional book, that these people would have KNOWN was fictional...It is illogical to think that the very writers of a fictional book, that only garnered them exile and ultimately death, would write such a book when there was no personal gain...

Once people begin to believe in something, it takes on a life of its own, not unlike what is happening in this very thread. To argue that a person believed in a thing so strongly is proof that the belief is true, is false. Otherwise, Christians of long ago would have wished and believed really, really hard that the Earth was the center of the universe, even though it clearly was not.

I fully believe that the original Apostles believed Jesus was the son of God, no different than the followers of David Koresh believed he was God. People all over the world tend to believe in things that others do not. So I'm not sure what your point is - that if someone believes in something, and are willing to die for that belief, then that that belief must be true ? :rolleyes:

I won't be responding further to your comments, but as I said at the beginning, wanted to correct some of your misstatements before closing this line of discussion with you.

Mandalorian54
05-15-2003, 07:39 PM
Do you seriously believe that, or have you merely deluded yourself into believing that? Hmmm, then I wonder why most Hindus have Hindu parents, and most Jews have Jewish parents, and most Muslims have Muslim parents, and most Christians have Christian parents, etc, etc, etc?

acctually most Christians are recent converts and their parents are not Christians, I was told this by a missionary.

I really don't see any need to hype up about how many kids believe what their parents teach, each contry differs and each individual differs. I'm sure though that kids don't believe all of what thier parents teach them, but most of them probably at least believe a fair chunk of what their parents teach them.

Concerning the time period of the writings of the Bible, the whole Bible (new and old testament) was written over a two thousand year time span. That's what I'm taught.

And the new testament was in deed writen from I think 30 B.C. till about 100 B.C. ,if I'm not mistaken, it wasn't just written 30-40 years after.

The bible was assembled from several books, written by different authors, over a hundred years after his death. Some of the books made it into the bible, while others did not. The decisions regarding which books made it into the bible were made by men. Those books that made it in were those that did not contradict one another - and some of these divine books were contradictory; furthermore, books that painted Jesus in a light that were not totally wholesome were also omitted - there were books describing the early childhood of Jesus and detailed his tantrums and use of "god-like" powers during his tantrums, which were not included.

I don't think you really 'know' that some of the devine books were contradictory, and niether do you know that those who did not contradict one another where the ones placed in.

I'm taught that it was simply decided which books were writen with devine insight and those books were placed in the Bible, but many of them were not books but letters. Namely Paul's letters to the churches. And I have never heard anything about books describing Jesus' childhood. I don't really believe it but it's certainly possible.

That's an opinion. If anything, the new testament is the only part of the Bible that could have any hope of having described events that actually occurred.

The old testament is contradictory on the first two pages of Genesis. The first page dealing with the days of creation describes, I believe on the 4th or 5th day, that the animals were all created. The following day man is created. Turn the page, and then we go into more detail about the Garden of Eden. The story goes that Adam is walking around the Garden and starts to become lonely. Here's the contradiction: to provide Adam with companionship, before creating Eve, God first created the animals. So there you go - the "divine" old testament, product of prophets off to a roaring, contradictory start - neither accurate, nor reliable. So, if it can't get it straight on the first two pages, what other inaccuracies lie buried within its voluminous text?

It's not a contradiction, the animals do provide man with companionship, but it's not enough. As a kid you might have had a pet dog, when your board you pet your dog and it's cute but it can't talk and it doesn't have the intelectual capabuilities of providing a sufficient companion. So God created another better companion, a wife.

Is that so hard to understand?

Once people begin to believe in something, it takes on a life of its own, not unlike what is happening in this very thread. To argue that a person believed in a thing so strongly is proof that the belief is true, is false. Otherwise, Christians of long ago would have wished and believed really, really hard that the Earth was the center of the universe, even though it clearly was not.


that is true, but it is not mearly the fact that they were willing to die, but that not one of the 300 eye witnesses of Jesus' resurection ever even said it was all made up to save his life. What kind of a liar would die to make people think his lie was real? This is at least some significant evidence of the truth of scripture and that Jesus is in fact God.

I know that BrodieCadden was not saying that christianity is true because people believe it so much they are willing to die. He was only stating that people believe in it so much that they are willin to die. Not as a reason of it's realness.

He was only stating marvalouse happenings not using them as proof.

Breton
05-15-2003, 08:58 PM
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1


Ive heard many people say, God made everything, so he must of made evil, then they say they dont want to follow a god like that.
But now I know God didnt make evil, before I didnt really know where evil came from, so I just said, Satan made evil, when he turned evil. But i was sort of right/wrong.

Its all about free will, and Satan. Yeah, weird huh? But heres the thing, Satan was the highest angel right?? God gave all the angels free will, icluding the will to rebell against him, if they so choose. Of course they could never overthrow God, but they could try. And thats what Satan did. You see, free will means, you can do what ever you want, including sin. So when Satan sinned, he became evil. Satan became to proud, because of his high position, and wanted more, so thats why he did what he did. He had everything, except ultimate power, he was the highest angel! And now he has lost everything! That explains it better, huh?


Firstly, tell me: What is evil? According to your post, everything that goes against the word of God is evil. But why is that? Does this mean I am an evil person because I do not believe in God? I have more respect for humans and others, and care more about weak and poor than many christians do. Yet I am evil, and these are not. Great world we are living in, eh?

And so you are saying that Satan is doomed to eternal torture because he went against God. This is a true sign that God strictly forbids any form of democracy, thus, democracy is evil in the eyes of God. According to Christians, the entire world is a huge dictatorship ruled by this one being. Every person who go against him, is sent to eternal torture. And what's all that crap about God being forgiving? According to the Bible, every person who does not believe in God shall be sent to hell for all eternity.

No, my simple answere was, he screwed up, now he must be punished. Satan is now without an excuse, he rebelled, willingly, and so did his followers (demons). So, he became the essence of evil (this probably should have been put up there, but anyways). He has no knowledge of good. You know Satan, thoguht he had won the war, when Christ was crucified. If he had known, that it would deliver us from sins, he would have stopped the crucifiction. Understand? Why would Satan want to lose his followers (us, human beings, sinners) he didnt knwo that the crucifiction would save us from our sins.

Let's think of it another way. A great and rich area is ruled by one person alone (Iraq, Saddam). This ruler like to be made out to be a kind and loving leader, who cares for everyone, and is good itself (Saddam still). Yet he severely punishes everyone who go against him or his regime. The people who does not like his rule, are "evil", and those who actually rebel him, are "demons and devils", and shall be sent away and tortured for ever (even worse than Saddam now).

Let me say it this way: If the Bible is true, we have all been living under a brutal dictatorship terror regime since the creation.

Why was Satan allowed to test them. If they hadnt sinned no one would go to Hell right? True. We would be in the Garden of Eden. They had been made with Holy hearts, but also, free will. There hearts had to be tested. And sadly they failed.

They were tempted with knowledge and wiseness. Everyone knows that a dictator can only hold his power as long as the people remains uneducated and unknowing of the things this dictator does not want them to know. It is pretty natural that they were "sinning", as they were threatening his superiority.

why does he rule? easy, he is God, no one is strong enough to challenge him. (name someone you know who can challenge God and win!) he made everything (hey you made it, its your right?), And he has enough power to back up his claims.

And when did you last actually see his power? When did you last see his name roaring in the sky as a belief of his all-powerfullness?

this is our proof that God will always do right. His love limits his sovereignty.God is love. This is so, he only punishhes lovingly. If he was not limited by love, he might get so angry, he might destroy us. This is proof that he is not a tyrant, or any kind of evil dictator. He cannot disown himself, or contradict himself. When people say hge made evil, he didnt, because that would mean the verse in the Bible which says God is love, would be wrong.

Tell me: Why doesn't he just destroy all evil in the world? He can't. As long as a dictator is in power, some people will always be against him.

And next about the love thingy: Yeah right! A being who has sent billions of perfectly innocent people to torture and burning slavery has no right to be called anything near lovingly. We know that according to the Bible, he is a dictator, and according to the Bible, he will torture and doom everyone who goes against him. Saying that God isn't a tyrant or an evil dictator is going against the Bible.

Like ive said before, God was lonley. He wanted somethign to fellowship with. In other words, he wanted a friend. But how fun is a robot? How good of a friend is a robot? it cant think, or feel, or laugh, or anything, it can only do what it is told to do. Thats not a friend, thats a slave, basically. So he gave us free will. A controlled being wouldnt make him happy. Only real love (that means, not forced love) can make him happy.

Then he should've made himself a Godess or something, instead of playing around with small beings for amusement.

"it cant think, or feel, or laugh, or anything, it can only do what it is told to do. Thats not a friend, thats a slave, basically."

Correct. And that is precicely how God wants us to be, since we are not allowed to go against him in any way.

This is something ive heard a lot. "Christ didnt go through that much pain, thousands died on crosses, thats the same punishment Christ got" Yeah he died on a cross, but there was mroe punishment than that. Ive wanted to say this for a while, but never really had the chance to. (or at least since ive known about it)

Yet, this punishement is NOTHING against the punishement God supposedly gives "sinners" each day.

There was more than just a cross. (this is a little gross, and lots of people dont like hearing about it) After some research i found out about this stuff. After this, I dont want anyone to ever say, Christ didnt go through a lot of pain.

Well, Satan went through more pain, and they were just as innocent. The only difference is that Satan did not like the dictatorship of God.





Mind you, I do not believe in the Bible, so that all of these statements aren't really real. I'm just saying that if God actually happens to excist, he's certainly not as good and loving as the christians want him.

Vagabond
05-15-2003, 09:29 PM
Originally posted by Mandolorian54 ...I'm taught that it was simply decided which books were writen with devine insight and those books were placed in the Bible, but many of them were not books but letters. Namely Paul's letters to the churches. And I have never heard anything about books describing Jesus' childhood. I don't really believe it but it's certainly possible...

I'm the first to admit that I'm not a biblical scholar by any stretch of the imagination. However, I did have the good fortune to work with a man who was very much a devout Christian - a man who I greatly respected, both for his intellect and integrity - this man spent much of his free time researching arcane facts and trivia regarding the history of Christianity and the Bible. During some of our good-natured religious debates, he began to educate me on some of the information he'd uncovered during his studies.

One of his interesting discoveries regarded how the bible was assembled, and how certain books, which can still be found if one looks hard enough for them, were excluded from the bible due to how they either contradicted other books, or because they didn't show Jesus is the most favorable light. Not to say that any of the books made Jesus appear evil - it's just that some of them made him appear more Human, especially some of those dealing with his early childhood.

You obviously don't need to take my word for it - look it up if you wish. I trust the man that told me these things - he was both a faithful Christian believer, and an intellectual. Plus, being a left-brained computer programmer, he was very careful about his facts. I wish I had a link to point you in the right direction, but if you're truly interested, I'm sure you can find it out on your own.

...It's not a contradiction, the animals do provide man with companionship, but it's not enough. As a kid you might have had a pet dog, when your board you pet your dog and it's cute but it can't talk and it doesn't have the intelectual capabuilities of providing a sufficient companion. So God created another better companion, a wife.

Is that so hard to understand?...

I don't think I was very clear on the exact nature of the contradiction. What I'm talking about is the sequence of events.

During the days section of Genesis, on the first page, all of the animals are created before Man (implying before both Adam and Eve).

On the next page, where the story of Genesis goes into more detail, we zoom into Adam in the Garden of Eden - Adam already exists. As Adam gets lonely, God's first attempt to provide Adam with companionship is to create the animals - which contradicts the first page of Genesis, which state that the animals were created before Man, not after.

This is the contradiction to which I refer. Hope that clears things up.

shukrallah
05-15-2003, 09:58 PM
1st thing: Why cant u people read everything ive said, ive answere half of this with in my 1st posts. But ill just redirect those who ask without reading to my other posts.

2nd, how has this turned into a debat? wasnt supposed to.

Firstly, tell me: What is evil? According to your post, everything that goes against the word of God is evil. But why is that? Does this mean I am an evil person because I do not believe in God? I have more respect for humans and others, and care more about weak and poor than many christians do. Yet I am evil, and these are not. Great world we are living in, eh?

Sin is evil! You have sinned, therefore you have ruined your chance to go to Heaven, but there is another way, that God has provided. (just so you know, listed above in my other posts, you might want to read them)
About God being a dictater, or tyrant, i answered that too, in an above post. Please read everything ive said. (i dont get it, you quoted when i explained he wasnt a tyrant, but you still post this stuff???)
And why shouldnt he rule? i answered that also in the top!

Well, Satan went through more pain, and they were just as innocent. The only difference is that Satan did not like the dictatorship of God.

How did Satan go through more pain? Hes not even in Hell yet...
If you going to argue, then please check up on what your arguing about, this is just annoying...



Stick around....

How many times have i insulted you? and please quote me.


There is NO proof of evolution, thus says all the evolutionists and scientists of today's modern science. I heard it from a scientist, so don't tell me you know better.

exaclty right, even Darwin, the guy who thought up evolution denounced the thoery. If the guy who thought it up said it was wrong, then why stick with it. He should know, he thought it up...lol

This, right here, is an implication that those who are never expose to your "true path" will go to hell. I know it's not exactly what you're saying, but it's certainly implied.

How on earth is that fair? "What's that, you never heard of Jesus Christ? Too bad, off to hell you go!"

Furthermore, do you really expect people who may have been raised from birth to be agnostic or atheist to suddenly convert simply because the bible said so, or some pastor said so, or you said so? It seems so, as you believe that they will go to hell for being raised a certain way.

I cant support this, and I cant believe that God would be so stupid and closed minded as to set up a system in which those who were made to be a certain way by powers not their own would be condemned for the sins of the fathers. Me, I've been raised to question everything I see. My parents are Roman Catholic, but they are this mostly because it's how they were raised. And they know this, and they want me to come to my own conclusions. To that end, they taught me to question everything and come to my own conclusions.

Have you sinned? yeah. So therfore, you are not worthy to go to Heaven. He has offered a second chance though, dont you see that? Its like following instructions to put something together, if you dont follow right, it wont work right. Its the same with Heaven.

lukeskywalker1, regarding one of your most recent posts - Who is God/Satan - Heaven/Hell - you're making the assumption that these entities and places exist - and therefore discussing them as fact is without basis.

Does the bible ever say God is real, no. It assumes you know that. Its starts with God created the world, so by reading that you assume, God created the world, so he has to be there to creat the world. By saying good people go to Heaven, bad people go to Hell, you say that, so you must assume, they are there. :rolleyes:
btw, thats just a short quick version of what i said be4.

Before responding with, "But I do believe - I have faith...", first ask yourself why. Is it because that's the way you were raised? If so, then what if you were raised in the wild. Presuming God exists, merely for the sake of argument, would your blissfully ignorant life in the wild give you a different outlook on the existence of God? Would you have perhaps reached alternate conclusions on religion, if any at all? And if so, would these other beliefs have any impact at all on whether or not there truly is a God?

Once again, why cant people read all of my posts, be4 asking questions. Thats all im going to say, because its already answeres above in an earlier post.

And free will, not having a free will is diferent from not having a will at all. You seem to be confusing my bielief of not having a free will with not having a will at all.

I think our will is defined by certain characteristics and not entirely free. But we can still make desicions, God doesn't make all the decisions for us. Like I mentioned before:

Ah, I c now, didnt really know what you were talking about. Yeah, he controls us part of the time, but not a lot though. He controls non-believers too, but not a lot, only once in a while.


I suggest, do your research, read all of the thread, if not part of everyones post, so you will know whats going on. And if your going to try and proove a christian wronge, i suggest that you read your bible a little bit. It just gets annoying, this thread was made byu the assumption that you have read your bible. The rest is people just skipping posts, or reading them incorretly.

-lukeskywalker1

shukrallah
05-15-2003, 10:17 PM
it's just that some of them made him appear more Human, especially some of those dealing with his early childhood.

Well i would hope they would make him appear human, simply because he was fully human, and fully god, so, whats ur point?
He was human, so he could start our second chance. It was so he knew what being human was like. Yeah God knows everything, but whats beats a 1st hand expereince? Thats why His son interceds for us, on out behalf. Anyways, you cant kill God, so if Christ wasnt human, how could you kill him???


I don't think I was very clear on the exact nature of the contradiction. What I'm talking about is the sequence of events.

During the days section of Genesis, on the first page, all of the animals are created before Man (implying before both Adam and Eve).

On the next page, where the story of Genesis goes into more detail, we zoom into Adam in the Garden of Eden - Adam already exists. As Adam gets lonely, God's first attempt to provide Adam with companionship is to create the animals - which contradicts teh first page of Genesis, which state that the animals were created before Man, not after.

This is the contradiction to which I refer. Hope that clears things up.

*sigh, He made animals, he made Adam. He told Adam to pick one to be a companion, and Adam didnt find a suitable one.

-lukeskywalker1

Dagobahn Eagle
05-15-2003, 11:32 PM
Let me say it this way: If the Bible is true, we have all been living under a brutal dictatorship terror regime since the creation.
This article comes to mind:
"God to end ”No crime” policy in Paradise, rethink government policies due to costs of MPs, student movement protests.

Following the student movement demonstrations against God’s authoritarian regime in Paradise, the Lord has been forced to reconsider the policies of his, according to him, “perfect world with no crime”.

Pearl Gates, Paradise: Said Gabriel, head of the Paradise *, “we have for a long time sought to be, and actually managed to be, a world of no crime, but it is now clear that with the cost of the massive force of Military Police units needed to maintain this policy, it’s simply not possible to uphold it.”(...)

”What we want is a leader who is more like the leader of Nirvana”, said one citizen. ”I mean, if a person is found unsuited for citizenship, they simply send them back to Earth. God insists on [burning] them. We realise the resources needed to send people back will take their toll on our beautiful nation, but...(...)

Another reason for the massive uproar in Heaven is the growing pubic desire for a Democracy. (...) The people are tired of living under a single leader who refuses to hold elections for other leaders, and who has been known to terrorise Democratic religions with more than one leader, such as the Norse, Aztec, and Greek mythologies, and forced the worshippers of these religions to join his regime.”(...)

Despite God’s claims, citizens worry that his new plans might be nothing but lies, and that Paradise might remain a dictatorship for many years yet, and that he might, instead of removing MPs, simply increase taxation to compensate for the loss of money needed to maintain these units(...).

Reporting live from Paradise.:).

/Off topic

Anyways..

Does the bible ever say God is real, no. It assumes you know that. Its starts with God created the world, so by reading that you assume, God created the world, so he has to be there to creat the world. By saying good people go to Heaven, bad people go to Hell, you say that, so you must assume, they are there.
That changes nothing, as it's still not an estibilished fact.
I don't care where in the Bible or Q'uran something is listed, if it can't be proven, and science has proved it wrong, I don't believe in it.

More contradictions: The commandments say that it's a sin to kill. Then it goes on to glorify the killling of Goliat, and the drowning of the soldiers by Moses.

I have a request here: Please quote where in the Bible you find your statements from. A lot of people here haven't read it for a while, or never at all.

Vagabond
05-15-2003, 11:57 PM
lukeskywalker1, are you not paying attention to what I wrote, or are you merely ignoring it? If you are one of those people who claim that the bible is divine, and thereby without any flaw, then what I am telling you is that the bible is flawed - on it's opening page. Here - I'll spell it out very clearly so you can gloss over it:

1. The first page Genesis in the bible says that the animals were created before man.

2. The second page of Genesis in the bible says that man was created before the animals.

It's inconsistent and flawed. If to be divine means to be perfect, then the bible is neither.

This will be my final post to this thread because it appears that the participants in this discussion are not interested in an intellectual exchange. Rather, the people posting in this thread appear to only be interested in digging into their already preconceived ideas of the truth, and have closed their minds to any ideas that may threaten that which they hold dear.

Oh well - could have been a fun discussion. Later - have fun talking in circles :cool:

munik
05-16-2003, 03:22 AM
Originally posted by Vagabond
Oh well - could have been a fun discussion. Later - have fun talking in circles :cool: And the weak quit so easily. Your point is hard to understand, because you are being vague. Not everyone's bible has the same amount of words on each page, or even the same font or page size, or margin width. So, to that effect, telling someone it's on the first and second page, while narrowing it down to the start, is still vague.
Gen 1:23: It is the 5th day of creation.
Gen 1:26-27: God and his other god friends create man. This verse is also one of many that affirm there are other gods.
Gen 2:1: The seven day waiting period is over.
Gen 2:18-19: This is the supposed contradiction, that god saw adam was lonely and formed the animals for him to find a companion. Adam didn't find one he liked, so god took a rib and made eve.

Now, while I do not necessarily believe in this contradiction, as in the second chapter he uses the word formed, which I believe is akin to a gods power to conjure, it can still be viewed as a contradiction. And there are plenty of those in the bible, it would be folly to ignore that fact. And almost useless to bring it up, even though it is fun. lukeskywalker1 already refuted your contradiction here (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=99580#post1150759), yet you feel the need to ride his ass about it some more. What do you need, someone to come over to your house with a bible and point the verses out for you?

So, as this thread is huge now, and most of my replies have already been said, I'll add a few things.

Jesus's crucifixion wasn't much worse then anyone else's. Everyone was scourged, and considering the fact that the Romans only crucified the vilest scum of their society we can safely assume that everyone else was humiliated and probaly smacked around too.

There are other gods, god even attests to this, as do some of the bible authors.

God is not a good guy, as has been mentioned before. If you can sway me to love god without mentioning either of these two facts: He tells me to love him and if I don't love him he will send me to hell...well, if you could do that you would have quite the silver tongue. As I have rarely seen an argument that doesn't point out those reasons as to why you should go with god. Maybe you could list of all the good reasons why you love god, and then all of the bad reasons why you love god. Then we could weigh them out, and see if the good outweigh the bad. Then, after that, we could find a woman whose husband beats the sh*t out of her all the time, and threatens to kill her if she leaves. And we could play the same good/bad list game with her, and see how closely your list and her list resemble each other.

shukrallah
05-16-2003, 08:07 PM
Gen 1:26-27: God and his other god friends create man. This verse is also one of many that affirm there are other gods.



You misunderstand this, when he says WE, he means, God, Jesus, Holy Spirit. Even Christ says he is the Alpha and the Omega which means beginning and end. That means, he was there in the beginning, and he will be there in the end, or will be the end.

Jesus's crucifixion wasn't much worse then anyone else's. Everyone was scourged, and considering the fact that the Romans only crucified the vilest scum of their society we can safely assume that everyone else was humiliated and probaly smacked around too.

True, but they did that to people who were not Roman citizens, it was illegal to do that to a citizen, Christ was a citizen so he should have only been hung, but they did more. Not to mention they didnt have any reason to beat him at all. They just did.

[QUOTE]God is not a good guy, as has been mentioned before. If you can sway me to love god without mentioning either of these two facts: He tells me to love him and if I don't love him he will send me to hell...well, if you could do that you would have quite the silver tongue. As I have rarely seen an argument that doesn't point out those reasons as to why you should go with god. QUOTE]

Maybe your right, maybe thats why no one really believes what I say, or they try to prove it wrong, hmmm.... youve given me something to think about (about my whole ministry, btw no im not a preacher)

We will start with John 3:16 this shows plenty of love:

John 3:16- God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son so that whoever believes in him may not be lost, but have eternal life.

The Good News shows God's love

The Good News is the fact that Jesus Christ died on the cross, he was buried, and then he rose again on the third day, so people can be saved.

Romans 1:16-17- I am proud of the Good News, because it is the power God uses to save everyone who believes - to save the Jews first, and also to save those who are not Jews. The Good News shows how God makes people right with himself - that it begins and ends with faith. As the Scripture says, "But those who are right with God will live by trusting him.

oh well if you look here, you find that you have to believe in Christ or you cant go to heaven.

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 Now, brothers and sisters, I want you to remember the Good News I brought to you. You recieved this Good News and continued strong in it. And you are being saved by it if you continue believing what I told you. If you do not, then you believe for nothing.



oh yeah, and if you read here it explains why most people wont turn.

John 3:16-21- "God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son so that whoever believes in him may not be lost, but have eternal life. God did not send his Son into the world to judge the world guilty, but to save the world through him. People who believe in God's Son are not to be judged guilty. Those who do not believe have already been judged guilty, because they have not believed in God's one and only Son. They are judged by this fact: The Light has come into the world, but they did not want light. They wanted darkness, because they were doing evil things. All who do evil hate the light and will not come to the light, because it will show all the evil things they do. But those who who follow the true way come to the light, and it shows that the things they do were done through God."

ill be back later, i got stuff i need to do.

-lukeskywalker1

Dagobahn Eagle
05-16-2003, 09:52 PM
Uhm.. so because I'm a buddhist I do evil stuff, and I'm a buddhist because I do evil stuff.

Let me just say this: This total lack of respect towards different ethnic groups, religions, including the idea of Hell, was one of the main reasons why I gave up chrsitianity. I just sat there and thought, "what the Heck"?

Christianity, while I don't dislike it, is one of the religion that does the most to ensure all other religions other than itself looks bad. Hinduism, I believe is the most tolerant one.

People like Lukeskywalker1, IMO, are one of the main reasons why people won't turn, and why so many people dislike christianity.

John 3:16- God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son so that whoever believes in him may not be lost, but have eternal life
Translation: God "loved" the world so much that he gave his one and only Son so that those who happen to have other religions will burn in Hell."

Love my Ass.

shukrallah
05-16-2003, 10:20 PM
Dude, its a forum, you dont have to read it. Am I putting buddhism down? And hey why should you be mad? Buddhism doesnt talk of a Heaven or Hell, so why are you worrying. If your right, then nothing happens right???

Uhm.. so because I'm a buddhist I do evil stuff, and I'm a buddhist because I do evil stuff.


Did i say that? I didnt say Buddhism is a sin, I said there is one way to Heaven, Christ himself said it, and thats that! We all sin, and theres no way you can say you dont. If you know any other way to get to Heaven, please enlighten me. Ill even say im sorry for saying all of this if you can find one.

Hey shouldnt people be punished for wrong doings??? So can I kill you or a one of your family members, and say oh well, and not get punished???

All sin is equal in God's eyes! Therefore, I can kill 10,000 people, and you can lie, and we are still as guilty as each other!! Just because we have sinned. Meaning, you can just say 1 lie your whole life, and that 1 lie makes you unholy, and therefore, you cant get into Heaven.

Whats wrong, cant you humble yourself, and say Im sorry, I sin, please forgive me???? Is that so hard???

But anyways you know you dont have to read it, you choose to read it. If you cant take it, then oh well. Read the bible, check my verses, there all there. Im not just making up some stuff.

-lukeskywalker1

shukrallah
05-16-2003, 11:07 PM
I fully believe that the original Apostles believed Jesus was the son of God, no different than the followers of David Koresh believed he was God. People all over the world tend to believe in things that others do not. So I'm not sure what your point is - that if someone believes in something, and are willing to die for that belief, then that that belief must be true ?


Werent those people high though? just wondering, i think ive heard of that David dude. But anyways.You have to be a Christian to really understand this stuff. But who has died more for there religion? Christians! And you wonder why? If Christianity is so bad, then why are people willing to die for it, or for His name? Hey Christ died for us, so what could be greater than dying for him? Millions of Christians die each year, just for saying "hey im a christian, and proud to be 1 too."


Christianity, while I don't dislike it, is one of the religion that does the most to ensure all other religions other than itself looks bad.

Maybe. But you know whats so different about Christianity? Its because Christianity, is only a viewed as a religion to the World, But to a Christian, Christianity is mor ehten a religion, its a relationship with Jesus Christ!

How many other "religions" have a savior that dies for you?
How many other "religions" have a God that is willing to say, ok, youve sinned, but since you have followed my rules, we will just erase those sins?
How many other "religions" actually have a God that can talk to you and respond? (yeah of course it sounds wierd to any non-believer! But to a Christian, its as normal as me talking to you!

Yeah, that verse i quoted above always makes people mad, cause they know its true.

Look at this, and keep in mind, God himself said this:

JOB 40 verse 6-17

Then the LORD spoke to Job from the storm:
"Be strong, like a man!
I will ask you questions,
and you must answere me.
Would you say that I am unfair?
Would you blame me to make yourself
look right?
Are you as strong as God?
Can your voice thunder like his?
If so, then decorate yourself with glory
and beauty;
dress in honor and greatness as if they
were clothing.
Let your great anger punish;
look at the proud and bring them
down.
Look at the proud and make them
humble.
Crush the wicked wherever they are.
Bury them all in the dirt together;
cover their faces in the grave.
If you can do that, then I myself will
praise you,
because you are strong enough to save
yourself.

Its a bit longer, but I wont quote that much, it gets the point across.

-lukeskywalker1

"Scriptures quoted from The Holy Bible, New Century Version,
copyright (C) 1987, 1988, 1991 by Word Publishing, Dallas, Texas
75039. Used by permission."

munik
05-17-2003, 01:31 AM
I don't really buy that anytime god uses the plural in reference to things he does (we,us) that he means the trinity. Another thing that I think supports multiple gods is the commandment about not having other gods before him or such. I know you said it was about made up gods, but why would god need to make this commandment? Didn't those with moses (isrealites?) have more then enough proof of god during their journey? Why would they turn away from a real god and worship made up ones? God was insecure, or jealous, and as such made that commandment. (This is just one side of it, as what I really believe is that moses made it all up, but if he did not then this argument would be valid). The trinity seems a little slippery to me. Maybe if I saw some verses that referenced it to help me understand it.

Also, why should I love god? His love is an intangible thing, as is he. I love my wife, my daughter, hell even my cats, and this love is reciprocated which is fulfilling. I don't really love the earths core, as this is an intangible thing to me, even though I believe it exists. I'm not asking for proof before I commit, because I believe there will never be any. I'm just saying that how do those who believe in god, love god? This cannot be the same love that I experience throughout my life.

How, after accepting god and loving him, can I do all that he asks of me? How can I not sin? I know god will forgive me if I ask, but how can I ask god to forgive me for something that I am not ashamed of doing? There are things that god says not to do that I don't believe I could possibly ever give up. Why do I have to change for god? How come god cannot accept me for the flawed human being that I am?

I love my daughter, and I don't believe that will ever change. I would say it would never change, but I cannot see into the future or predict all paths. So, as of now, regardless of any heinious acts that I can imagine she may commit in the future, I don't think I could ever forsake her, or stop loving her, or put her in pain because of it. Having said that, how come god has no qualms about doing such to me? How can god stop loving me? How come his love is conditional?

Can you answer those questions without the threat of hell, and without saying "because god tells me to"?

shukrallah
05-17-2003, 02:50 AM
Maybe if I saw some verses that referenced it to help me understand it.

The word trinity is never used, but its meaning (God, Son, Holy Spirit) is implied in this verse:



Mathew 3:16-17
As soon as Jesus was baptised, he came up out of the water. Then heaven opened, and he saw God's Sprit come down on him like a dove. And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love, and I am very pleased with him."

In these verses, all three participate. And its in another place, check this out, because I really dont feel like typing it up:

John 14:23-26 that has some stuff about it also, although it isnt said directly, its there. You see they are one, but 3 different beings. For EX:
1+1+1=3 right? well 1x1x1=1 see?
But its still monotheistic, because there is one God, but they are 3 persons. But its basically, beyond human understanding.... and we just must accpet that, the way evolutionists must accept that they may never find everything they are looking for.




I don't really buy that anytime god uses the plural in reference to things he does (we,us) that he means the trinity. Another thing that I think supports multiple gods is the commandment about not having other gods before him or such. I know you said it was about made up gods, but why would god need to make this commandment? Didn't those with moses (isrealites?) have more then enough proof of god during their journey?

while he was giving that command, or about the same time, they were building a golden calf in otherwords, an idol. Not to mention Egypt had false gods, and so did many other places. The 10 commandments were not written at the biggining of time. It also applys today. Even though we dont have stone gods, (or at least not where im at, i dont think) we can still have false gods. Like im obsessed with something, and do whatever it is all the time, it becomes like a god to me, well God says its wrong. So when he refers to other gods hes refering to all these different things.

or jealous

Did you think that up yourself? Well, your right, and he admitts it, plenty of times. He wants us all to himself, which is basically what life is about, not to us, but to Satan and God. Satan says that he can grab more souls than God can. Of course he is jealous, weve turned our backs on him! Weve gone to other "idols" instead of worshipping the true god, God!
This verse should clear things up-

Corinthians 8 verse 5
Even though there are thigns called gods, in heaven or on earth (and there are many "gods" and "lords"), for us there is only one God - our Father. All things came from him, and we live for him. And there is only one Lord - Jesus Christ. All things were made through him, and we were also made through him.

Ah, see, when in Genisis, when God says, we will make man in the image of ourselves, then if you read that verse it tells us, we were made through Christ, so he must of been there too!

Also, why should I love god?

Because He loves us. BTW half of everything is faith dude. If you only have the faith the size of a mustard seed, you can move mountains! But back on topic- #1 Jesus died for you, for me, and everyone else. Im surprised, thats nough to mak eme want ot love him. While he hung there, in the sun, he thought of us, he knew we would sin again, but he still did it, just so we wouldnt die from our sins! Thats love. Think about the thousands of sins you have done. God forgives you for each of them, thats unconditional love. Its like hurting someone and saying sorry. After a while if you keep doing this, they dont forgive you anymore, well God doesnt. He still forgives, although the general idea is forgive and dont sin again, bu we are human, and christ intercedes for us.



How, after accepting god and loving him, can I do all that he asks of me? How can I not sin? I know god will forgive me if I ask, but how can I ask god to forgive me for something that I am not ashamed of doing? There are things that god says not to do that I don't believe I could possibly ever give up. Why do I have to change for god? How come god cannot accept me for the flawed human being that I am?

Ah, well its simple, ask and you shall receive. Say i have a problem with lying ( i mentioned this above) I ask God to help me not to lie, and ill do my best when a situation pops up, to try not to lye. And you will have the Holy Spirit to guide you anyways. God will change you, into a better person. A way better person. After all, didnt Christ make blind men see? Cripled men walk? Dead men live? He did this because those men had faith. You will just feel his love. Its so great and powerful.

Everyone has a void in there life. Everyone. Thats when God tuggs on your heart. You search for something, you dont know what, but you know something is missing. That void is where God is supposed to be. He will make you whole. With there help, you can move mountains, but only if you believe, if you dont, then its not worth even trying.

For better advise, read the gospel of James, it has a lot to do with what you have asked, if you questions, post it, and ill try to help. Its not long, about 4 chaptersm 3-4 pages. Wont take you more than 20-30 mins, if that to read. And hey, if it answeres your question then it was worth reading right?

And if you have even more time on your hands, read Hebrews, its longer, but it explains how peoples lifes are made better through christ.

How come his love is conditional?

He has unconditional love, think of all the sins people do, but he still cares about them.


Ephesians 1:5
Becuse of his love, God had already decided to make his own children through Jesus Christ. That is what he wanted and what pleased him, and it brings praise to God because of his wonderful grace. God gave that grace to us freely, in Christ, the One he loves.

"Scriptures quoted from The Holy Bible, New Century Version,
copyright (C) 1987, 1988, 1991 by Word Publishing, Dallas, Texas
75039. Used by permission."

-lukeskywalker1