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Smood
05-14-2003, 08:48 PM
The trailer has confirmed my fears. It looks to me that instead of a more skillful feel, WITH FLUID animations YOU CAN ACTUALLY SEE, there is more of that same spammy feel, and unrealsitc movement that plagued the JK2.

Don't get me wrong, JK2 is a great game, but it was these factors I wished they improved on. I believe in a press release they mentioned enhanced animation, but from that clip I saw more of the same 'GAME' like animation.

The saber will never be something real in the eyes of Raven programmers I suspect. Well, at least until the next engine.

Jolts
05-14-2003, 09:03 PM
yeah, it is pretty much the same. Not every exciting or clean to watch, love how the special move for the 2 sabers is the same backsweep from the yellow stance. I think they should have showed that off more. Out of all the game expected this fall/winter this game just moved to the end of the list for me.

Smood
05-14-2003, 09:03 PM
I really feel Raven needs to make this game feel less like a game!


1. Why are the sparks and golden balls in the game?!?! In all saber combat this is not an element.

2. Why do they FEEL the NEED to have gradiose visual effects with a simple force push? Just do a force push, use the force, not some energy cloud!

ERGH! So many brilliant people, but they cannot make that game movie connection.

Jolts
05-14-2003, 09:10 PM
"2. Why do they FEEL the NEED to have gradiose visual effects with a simple force push? Just do a force push, use the force, not some energy cloud!"


same reason they think its cool to have some spin 360 sideways in the air and 100mph when you shoot them in the head. And because chewbacca is a wookie that lives on the planet endor, does that make sense? NO! it does not make sense!

mariners2001
05-14-2003, 09:19 PM
you wanna see a good new trailer???

check out the new one for KOTOR...holy crap...i might just leave JK3 for that one....

Zodiac
05-14-2003, 09:48 PM
Originally posted by Smood
I really feel Raven needs to make this game feel less like a game!

.......

ERGH! So many brilliant people, but they cannot make that game movie connection.

I disagree with you on that. I think Raven went wrong with JKO by trying to make it more like the movies (as one of the many reasons why JKO failed as a MP game).

If they are concentrating to make it feel more like a game, well that's great!!!! Bah to the movie feeling, because this isa game, and it's been proven that most of the things that work in movies do not work well in a game. I'd rather have a fast paced, action packed fun game than a 'game' that's 100% realistic.

Fun in a game has the highest priority in my opinion, and if that means leaving out a lot of movie elements, then so be it: get rid of the movie elements.

Smood
05-14-2003, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by mariners2001
you wanna see a good new trailer???

check out the new one for KOTOR...holy crap...i might just leave JK3 for that one....

Lets take a look...

The last one was dissapointing SABER COMBAT wise, all else was good.


<watches>

Indeed very impressive. The only problem, is I wish to play the game, not queue moves and then watch them occur.

Smood
05-14-2003, 10:29 PM
Originally posted by Zodiac
I disagree with you on that. I think Raven went wrong with JKO by trying to make it more like the movies (as one of the many reasons why JKO failed as a MP game).

If they are concentrating to make it feel more like a game, well that's great!!!! Bah to the movie feeling, because this isa game, and it's been proven that most of the things that work in movies do not work well in a game. I'd rather have a fast paced, action packed fun game than a 'game' that's 100% realistic.

Fun in a game has the highest priority in my opinion, and if that means leaving out a lot of movie elements, then so be it: get rid of the movie elements.

Zodiac, In what way did they make this closer to the movie! By saying this you must have no clue what realism is. ELABORATE on your vague rebuttle.

TheBlueFlamingo
05-14-2003, 11:03 PM
Bah! If you guys are so dissapointed don't buy the game. Besides, the community would probably be better off witout negative rotten apples like you. Its just a game thats ment to be fun, last time I checked it wasn't trying to be a groundbreaker like Doom III, or Half-Life 2 are. Lucasarts is just trying to make a fun game, and some money. I'm almost certain that you guys will buy the game, take it for waht it is, not what YOU want it to be, you can't change the way it is going to be this late in the game. Some people get TOO uptight about little things that will be moded anyway, like the force puch bubbles, if people dont like them, they will mod them out. I think the game is going to be fun, and I like the force puch bubbles. I'm not trying to flame, but it will probably comes off that way and StormHammer will probably say smoething smart in response, but dont get worked up over little things. I know, I know, these are your opinions, but this is also my opinion.

Jolts
05-14-2003, 11:17 PM
when did this turn into the mickey mouse club where everything had to happy joy joy comments?

StormHammer
05-14-2003, 11:18 PM
Originally posted by TheBlueFlamingo
Bah! If you guys are so dissapointed don't buy the game. Besides, the community would probably be better off witout negative rotten apples like you. Its just a game thats ment to be fun, last time I checked it wasn't trying to be a groundbreaker like Doom III, or Half-Life 2 are. Lucasarts is just trying to make a fun game, and some money. I'm almost certain that you guys will buy the game, take it for waht it is, not what YOU want it to be, you can't change the way it is going to be this late in the game. Some people get TOO uptight about little things that will be moded anyway, like the force puch bubbles, if people dont like them, they will mod them out. I think the game is going to be fun, and I like the force puch bubbles. I'm not trying to flame, but it will probably comes off that way and StormHammer will probably say smoething smart in response, but dont get worked up over little things. I know, I know, these are your opinions, but this is also my opinion.

Why should I say something smart? Well...telling people to leave the community...yeah, not very nice, so please don't do that again. :tsk: :p Other than that, I agree with your views on the game. :D ;)

It's just a game. Personally, I don't like the glowy Force bubbles, but that's just me. Some people will like them, some loathe them. They can't please everyone all of the time.

Anyway...it's harder to judge the actual game flow from that trailer. Yes, it looks fast-paced, etc., but remember it was edited that way. Also, no matter how complete the game is...they will still have to tweak and balance it until it's close to release. I think they've shown that JA simply builds on what they achieved with JO...and that's good enough for me. I didn't expect them to move mountains.

Spider AL
05-14-2003, 11:36 PM
To be honest, I agree with 100% of Flamingo's post. No reservations whatsoever. What ruined the last game, (game being the operative word) was 1.03, which was an ill-advised attempt to pander to the nebulous cuckoo-esque squealing desires of people who wanted "BETTAR SABAR COMBET!!11" and "MOR SABAR COMBET!!1" and the result was the ruination of all game modes. The ruination of the fun of people who bought the game not to pretend to be Jedi, but to play the darn game. It's a game. Made to be a fun game, not some 'ommage (sic) to the movies.

I simply don't understand (and certainly don't respect) the idea that the game should mirror the movies in any respect other than its basic setting and the presence of force powers and lightsabres, nor the opinion that the most important thing about a game is the smoothness of its character animations and/or the subtle visual texture of a lightsabre blade.

It wouldn't be a problem if certain members of this community disliked the game. If I dislike a game, I don't play it. I don't sit around for months on end using up oxygen and listening to my cells crackle quietly as they degrade as I try to change the game to match my grand imaginary design. No, the trouble would be if people disliked the game and then ranted and raved about how much they dislike it, and how much they'd like Raven to change it, on these forums. Kinda like the past year, actually.

Star Wars buffs? I am one. But I can stand them less and less as time goes on.

shock ~ unnamed
05-14-2003, 11:40 PM
You people will bitch and complain about anything...

Does every thread on obi-wan's robe have to have the EXACT same fiber count as the movie prop?

Damn lighten up, it looks cool and will be a great game, key word being game, not an interactive recreation of a movie.

Just be glad you are getting the damn game.

Emon
05-15-2003, 12:27 AM
I agree with Spider_AL. Trying to make the game exactly like the movie just isn't going to work. The movies are all preplanned, scripted and choreographed. Video games are not, therefor it cannot be the same.

Prime
05-15-2003, 12:36 AM
Hell, I was pretty happy the way the saber was in JO. Of course it isn't going to be exactly like the movies, but it never will be. Sacrifices have to be made for gameplay reasons. I like that it isn't complicated to use. Then I can focus on my strategy, not on the controls.

Why does the lightsaber controls have to take "skill"? What fun would the game be for the casual fan if you had to learn all these complex controls? When I first played JO, it was easy to learn the swings, but it took a while to become good at lightsaber combat. Utlimately, the lightsaber does not have to be difficult to use to be fun.

Atsuri
05-15-2003, 12:47 AM
Just a few things. First off I would like to say that Jedi Outcast was NOT a ruined game, and in my opinion with the release of jedi outcast it DID move mountains in terms of the jedi knight series. Just LOOK at the saber combat, the graphics and such of jedi knight before JO. If you thought the saber combat in JO was bad go back to jedi knight 1 and you'll see bad saber combat!! Ok thats enought with my little rant. Anways i cant dload the movie from the actual site, some javascript problem/issue on there part or mine (i dont know/dontcare). can someone plz post an alternate link. thnx.

Emon
05-15-2003, 12:50 AM
One other thing. I also distinctly remember JO's trailer showing some bits of sloppy saber combat. The people who are playing at the time aren't necessarily trying to make it look good. They probably turn on god mode and hack away since it's just a very early trailer. Many times I've created magnificant scenes in JO that were never in the trailers.

Rumor
05-15-2003, 12:53 AM
want a movie game? how about playing a game made ABOUT a movie

wow there's a revellation

Smood
05-15-2003, 01:10 AM
FORGET MOVIE!!! (Although I might have liked this)

AT LEAST GIVE ME A GAME WITH REALISM. Give me a game with EXCELLENT animation, not swing a saber so damn quickly and jerkely that you cannot see it.



Listen all I know it is a game, but its attitudes like that, that hinder games from progressing to new levels. Instead, think of it as a conveyance of imagination, give it more meaning then it might even deserve, and watch games flourish and accelerate technologically.

Smood
05-15-2003, 01:20 AM
Originally posted by Spider AL
To be honest, I agree with 100% of Flamingo's post. No reservations whatsoever. What ruined the last game, (game being the operative word) was 1.03, which was an ill-advised attempt to pander to the nebulous cuckoo-esque squealing desires of people who wanted "BETTAR SABAR COMBET!!11" and "MOR SABAR COMBET!!1" and the result was the ruination of all game modes.

Dear Spider Al, we meet again...

No, this was not the ruination of the game. Nor was 1.02 bad. The gameplay changes made by Raven altered dynamics here and there, but the fundamental principles governing the game were what was somewhat flawed.

Now that actually is not 100% fair, considering JK2 was a huge leap from JK1 in many respects, and thus I cannot demand more of JK2. I only can suggest CORE game changes to bring more realism to the game, and possibly bring them closer to the movies. What does this mean? It means saber combat where I KNOW WHATS HAPPENING, I'am in charge of every swing movement and reflex, skillful fighting. Retain your weapons and your fast movement, but consider that.

I wish we could speak in person Spider AL, it would be so much easier then text

Shaggy1984
05-15-2003, 01:21 AM
I'm pretty sure in the trailers for JO the lightsabre combat was portrayed to be alot worse than it was in the game. Never know it could be the same case once again. But personally I didnt think it looked pretty cool myself and am thoroughly looking forward to it. :D

MuRaSaMuNe
05-15-2003, 01:24 AM
Originally posted by Atsuri
Just a few things. First off I would like to say that Jedi Outcast was NOT a ruined game, and in my opinion with the release of jedi outcast it DID move mountains in terms of the jedi knight series. Just LOOK at the saber combat, the graphics and such of jedi knight before JO. If you thought the saber combat in JO was bad go back to jedi knight 1 and you'll see bad saber combat!! Ok thats enought with my little rant. Anways i cant dload the movie from the actual site, some javascript problem/issue on there part or mine (i dont know/dontcare). can someone plz post an alternate link. thnx.

Here http://www.fileshack.com/file.x?fid=2896 you need to make an account on the site to download though :( but it doesn't take long.

Prime
05-15-2003, 01:54 AM
Originally posted by Emon
One other thing. I also distinctly remember JO's trailer showing some bits of sloppy saber combat... I remember this as well. I only saw the movie after I had played the game. I remember thinking that the clip wasn't a very good indication of what lightsaber combat was actually like. I suspect this video is the same.

Originally posted by Smood
What does this mean? It means saber combat where I KNOW WHATS HAPPENING, I'am in charge of every swing movement and reflex, skillful fighting. Retain your weapons and your fast movement, but consider that.
I don't quite get this. Why don't you know what's happening? Why do you want things slowed down? The swing speeds need to be fast, just like the "real thing". There's only so many frames available for animating each swing. IMO, we are in charge of every swing movement now. You can control almost exactly how the saber swings depending on the direction keys. What extra control would you like? What are you limited from doing currently? Frankly, I wouldn't want lightsaber combat any slower than it is now. Just look at the red stance! Sloooowwww. :)

razorace
05-15-2003, 02:02 AM
I'll bring up the point that LEC expects us to play $50+ for JKA. IE new whole game price.

Are they putting a lot of work into it? yes.

Is it going to be worth the full game price? maybe. When you come back and demand full game price like that, the players want a full new game. Not a fancy expansion of the old game.

Is this going to happen? We will see.

TheBlueFlamingo
05-15-2003, 02:15 AM
good point Razorace, I hope they change it up a little instead of just improve what they've had. It looks like they've added enough for me to feel like my money worth, well...... we'll see, I cant say that yet. But we wont know untill the gme comes out.

OK, question, the Tauntaun, wampa, and rancor, do you think thoes would be in MP? ALso the wampa size is bigger than the jedi, does that mean there will be different size models in MP, i know Knija or the guy who made Yoda model for JO was haveing trouble with the size. Also it would be easier to get a Wookie model size right. I hope MP is cool with rideable things, jousting would be cool. Sorry its off topic, but this topic isnt really impotant anyway.

shock ~ unnamed
05-15-2003, 02:15 AM
Another thing you people need to understand is Raven does not have total freedom with this game, it is a licensed property.


Raven may have a million ideas to make saber combat flawless but if LEC says no then it won't happen.

Kind of like the patches, everyone blames Raven but in reality they were forced to butcher their own work by LEC.

90 million frustrated noobs bitched and moaned, LEC said "Oh **** we better fix X because all these people are complaining about it and sales will drop."

They told Raven, "Fix X and nothing more" and hence it screwed up game play because LEC had *nothing to do with the game development and had no idea what would effect it good or bad. It was just a knee jerk reaction to complaints.

Imagine how Raven enjoyed working as long as they did on JK2 and then being forced to butcher their own game by LEC and then be flamed by the JK2 players for something they were made to do.

Atsuri
05-15-2003, 02:39 AM
Thank you MuRaSaMuNe now i can see what everyone is arguing about... OMG that looked sweet. WHAT ARE YOU COMPLAINING ABOUT! I saw TONS of new moves and im pretty sure a few of them were much classier and prettier than some of the ones in JO. From the looks of it there even looks like there is a range of special moves that can be pulled off.

Break_dF
05-15-2003, 03:34 AM
Smood... just stop posting man. It's impossible to judge game-play from a trailer. Impossible. Again.. impossible. Do you understand now? Good. Impossible.

Jolts
05-15-2003, 03:58 AM
I think what smood means by better control of saber is something is like being able to strafe left and swing left to right, and then right to left while still strafing left? vs having to switch movement direction in order to swing the other way. I only used the saber in sp, can't remember if mp had some of the automatic control that sp did over getting close to an enemy and think you were going to pull a left to right swing but instead getting a top left to bottom right swing?

When people talk about making the saber more moview like I'm guessing they are thinking more in terms of the actual animation poses and things like that.

Spider AL
05-15-2003, 11:50 AM
Groovy_ Post edited due to excessive flaming. Be forwarned, that "constructive critism is welcome", but destructive critism, which constitutes as flaming, will earn you a ban. You have been warned...


_Darth Groovy

Prime
05-15-2003, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by TheBlueFlamingo [/b]I hope they change it up a little instead of just improve what they've had...[/B] Why throw the baby out with the bath water? There are a lot of things that are great about JO lightsaber combat. There was an exceptional amount of control for the saber using only a mouse and keyboard. Why would you want to completely scrap what people have learned and enjoyed and come up with something completely different? It's better to keep the good things and improve it from there. I can't imagine drastic changes leading to a much better form of lightsaber combat.

Originally posted by Razorace
I'll bring up the point that LEC expects us to play $50+ for JKA. IE new whole game price. But it is a full new standalone game. I can see that for an expansion pack, but JA will be new game in and of itself. I don't see why it has to be totally different to be considered a new game. Games like X-Wing Alliance had a lot of similarities with the earlier titles in that series. But was it not worth the full price? Hell, you could say the majority of FPS are copies of each other.

toms
05-15-2003, 01:24 PM
What does this mean? It means saber combat where I KNOW WHATS HAPPENING, I'am in charge of every swing movement and reflex, skillful fighting. Retain your weapons and your fast movement, but consider that.

don't worry smood... at least i know what you mean. :D

i wouldn't count on them fixing the combat though, just aint gonna happen... but i think a few of the mods out there make it at least more predictable/consistent.

i'll be happy if they just fix the saber locks... save my mouse...

Solbe M'ko
05-15-2003, 04:22 PM
I think we all have to realize that Jedi Academy is just an expansion pack. It isn't a whole new game built from the ground up, it's just a map pack and a few more models, plus a patch.

Now don't get me wrong, the game looked okay, but really, it isn't a new game. Remember Mechwarrior 4? It had several stand alone expansions, they were not new games, though they were marketed as such.

Anyway, back to the sabers, the spaminess is a real problem. Making a game-like game is one thing, but making an experience on a screen is something else. If you want to play a game with sabers you should have the option, if you want to play a movie, you should have the option. Lucasarts could whip up 2 new games anytime it wants.

This trailer reminded me of Elite Force. Raven made that one, too, remember. EF was quake 3 all over again, but set in the ST universe. It came out feeling empty. It was too much game, not enough storytelling. Computer games will remain invalid in the minds of consumers as a source of real creativity until we start to use them to tell stories instead of just blow things up. I havn't seen a (good) movie in the last ten years that was all action, no reason. I have never read a book like that, either.

razorace
05-15-2003, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by Prime
But it is a full new standalone game. I can see that for an expansion pack, but JA will be new game in and of itself. I don't see why it has to be totally different to be considered a new game. Games like X-Wing Alliance had a lot of similarities with the earlier titles in that series. But was it not worth the full price? Hell, you could say the majority of FPS are copies of each other.

X-Wing Alliance had a totally different engine. you could TELL the difference from the screenshots. With JKA, you can't other than the fact they are new models, doing new animations, on new maps.

BloodRiot
05-15-2003, 04:42 PM
From what i saw the game doesnt look at all bad. The only 2 things i didnt like was that it was still lightning fast(i'd tweak down speed just a tad) and I think the double saber doesnt seem to have decent animations yet...weird cuz i was happy with double sabers. But i'm gonna still wait for gameplay experience before i pass any final judgements on the game.

EDIT:
------
I take some remarks half-back...
I saw some nice overhead spinning action against the weequay with the double bladed saber...try seeing it frame by frame... other than a faulty head animation(the guy spins around but the head faces the enemy at least during the end of the spin...he looked like he broke his neck), it looked interesting...it was a bit fast that's why i didnt notice it the first time... so i'll just stick with my other remark...it bloody fast ;p
------

The tauntaun riding seemed pretty fun and at last they got rid of the briar...pretty ugly weapon. Oh... even tho i didnt like the force push glow, im not worried about it. One of the things im mostly curious about is the character clustomization. I'd liek to the options, didnt look half bad from the screenshots and trailer tho.

Well, if they dont fix up some decent 2 handed animations for the double bladed saber, I'll just stick to single bladed saber saber. ;)

About gameplay... I'll be happy if defense is not uber like shoot-and-saber-me-from-all-sides-a-million-times-and-i'll-still-be-alive-and-kicking and offense is effective enough to make the saber usefull as a weapon and not a shield.

Cheers.

StormHammer
05-15-2003, 04:57 PM
You know, I have to feel sorry for the Raven devs. They're damned if they do...and damned if they don't. They gave us a pretty linear game in JO...which was based around a carefully created story. Regardless of whether you liked it or not...it did have a story.

Now with JA...they're telling us it's more open...we have more choices...and all of a sudden they're being criticised for not giving us a story - regardless of the fact none of us have any idea what the story is going to be in the game.

You can't have it both ways, people. Involving stories are by their very nature...linear. Yes, you can argue about the Deus Ex's of the gaming world, which did a very good job of making it feel less linear...although the story was mostly linear, to an extent, apart from where it branched based on your decisions.

Now we all know that JA will have a Light Side and Dark Side ending...so it has to branch somewhere. Let's wait and see what the story is about before criticising the game for having no story at all.

As for JA being an expansion pack...what a silly notion. They're giving us a game with new parameters, new models, new animations, new levels, new choices, character customisation, new MP modes, and who-knows-what-else...but because it's based on the same engine, it gets tagged with 'Expansion Pack' status.

So RTCW, EF, JO, and all the rest are just expansions of Q3? Are they? Forgive me while I ignore such a notion.

From what I've seen so far, JA simply feels like a natural progression in this series of games. Some of you might like to compare it to MotS, which was classed as an Expansion Pack - but to be quite frank...I haven't seen very many games with expansion packs of that size and quality. With a little more work, MotS could easily have become a standalone title and a natural sequel to JK, IMHO. Compared to other game 'expansions' at the time, I was frankly pleasantly surprised by the scale and scope of MotS.

In my view, JA is a great deal more to JO, than MotS ever was to JK. But of course, that's just my opinion, so feel free to disagree with it. ;)

txa1265
05-15-2003, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by StormHammer
You know, I have to feel sorry for the Raven devs. <snip>

Thanks for cranking on the whiners! I completely agree with you. People have been picking JKII apart more and more in the last several months. It was a very good game, one of last years best few, with a good but flawed story, nice if somewhat linear levels, and some very good gameplay through the innovative saber combat and force powers.

Now we have JA coming out. Builds upon the JKII engine like EFII builds from EF - is EFII just an expansion pack? NO!!! Neither is JA. I've used the MotS comparison in a positive way - MotS is longer than many noted games - MoHAA comes to mind. JKII was a long game - average ~24 hours, compared to most current FPS being 10 - 15 hrs. JA is supposed to be longer! With a truly branching story (sorry if I found Deus Ex's endings not so satisfying, you get all of that confusion right in the last mission), non-linear mission choices, more open levels, and so on.

Mike

Kurgan
05-15-2003, 05:37 PM
As many of us predicted right from the get go, this has more the feel of an "Expansion" (on the level of Mysteries of the Sith) than a true sequel.

I didn't expect the gameplay to go through any revolutionary changes. It sounds like we're in for more of the same, with some more tweaks (think of the new sabers as new stance options... the Taun Taun like another vehicle along the lines of the AT-ST).

Still, the Objective Based multiplayer is something that I'm really looking forward to. It's nothing new in game terms, but definately something the Star Wars JK universe has been lacking...


As far as the animations go, I wouldn't worry so much about those. The differences in framerate between the actual game on various hardware and the conditions under which it was recorded, etc affect how that looks, plus the game still has some time left before release...

As to the force "effects" you realize that in JK2 they are far more pronounced in Single Player, and for the primary reasons that lag isn't a factor and the player needs some more "feedback" for interacting with the environment. It's also a good teaching tool for n00bs. ; ) I would expect them to be toned down for actual multiplayer.

Notice how the HUDs looked incomplete... there is still work to be done before the game is finished, so I wouldn't expect it to be identical as what we saw (but not a revolution over it either).

Prime
05-15-2003, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by razorace
X-Wing Alliance had a totally different engine. you could TELL the difference from the screenshots. With JKA, you can't other than the fact they are new models, doing new animations, on new maps. And the maps and models are better than JO. Perhaps you have seen the model comparison screenshots between JA and JO. Sorry, I couldn't find a link. :)

Just because it uses a similar engine doesn't mean it will look exactly the same. But apart from graphics, we get more than just "new models, doing new animations, on new maps." You get:

Lightsaber - The player will start with a lightsaber he creates choosing from different
hilts and blade colors. The player will be able to use the lightsaber for the entire game, eventually earning the right to wield a saber staff, or one lightsaber in each hand.

Player Character - As the player, you get to create a custom Jedi character to play through the game with, choosing from hundreds of potential combinations.

Game Engine - Jedi Academy uses a heavily modified version of id Software?s Quake III: Team Arena engine. New features added since Jedi Outcast are:

Character customization system - allows players to create their own Jedi in both SP and MP (estimating 2160 combinations currently)

Ghoul II enhancements including the Ghoul infinite Model modification system - Allows for modular model enhancements, custom colorization, and expanded animation support

New ICARUS II scripting system for Single player and Multiplayer. Now allows for scripted events in multiplayer matches.

New map creation tools allowing for models to be used as in world objects instead of just textures. Creates richer 3-D environments.

New non-linear mission progression system.

Raven's ARIOCHE terrain system.

Portal skies

Rag doll skeletal system

Enhanced vehicle system. Allows for new ride-able vehicles in addition to previous drive-able ones

Character and vehicle enhancements designed to enable expanded mod support.

Modders will be able to design their own Jedi, character outfits, sabers, etc.

Come on. Doesn't that sounds like a little bit more than just an expansion pack?

ryudom
05-15-2003, 05:38 PM
i dunno, it doesn't look amazingly differant then JO... it looks kinda sloppy to me, just like single player for JO was sloppy. i hated that. but its just a trailer so who knows. if they mad singleplayer have better control, like multiplayer, i'd be happy. the guns in single player really really sucked. and the saber too, but not as much. imo of course.

Prime
05-15-2003, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by ryudom
i dunno, it doesn't look amazingly differant then JO... it looks kinda sloppy to me, just like single player for JO was sloppy. i hated that. but its just a trailer so who knows. if they mad singleplayer have better control, like multiplayer, i'd be happy. the guns in single player really really sucked. and the saber too, but not as much. imo of course. I think we are expecting different things. Nothing wrong with that, of course :) But I loved JO singleplayer (although I didn't use the guns a lot). I found the control of the saber better in SP than MP. I wasn't disappointed at all with the game. Maybe that's why I don't feel disappointed from what I've seen of JA, were as others might.

Smood
05-15-2003, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by Spider AL

Really. I for one hope I never meet any fanboys in person, sentencing is much too tough these days...

Calling me a fanboy over and over constantly reminds me you don't TRULY understand my vision, or me as a player. If you are disgusted with my comments with your 'ugh' comment, please do not reply.

Kurgan
05-15-2003, 05:57 PM
There's no reason to flame each other over opinions on a game that isn't out yet. Remember that. We can have a civilized discussion and disagree without being jerks!

Anyway...

The only element that appeared to "fail" and that was an attempt to be "more like the movies" I felt, was the situation with lightsabers "fizzling out" in water.

In the Single Player game of JK2 (unlike MotS and JK1) the water was not really "swimmable." You either waded through it, or you "floated" through it with a treading water animation, almost like you were in the vacuum of space, rather than a lake or ocean, etc. Once your saber touched the water, it shut off, and would stay off until you "got out."

The only reason they could have done this is because of a DELETED SCENE from TPM, mentioned in the screenplay and novelisation (and the comic book version too) but never shown onscreen, not even on the DVD with all the other deleted scenes... that showed Qui Gon scolding Obi-Wan for "leaving his saber on" and getting it wet, forcing him to "clean" it.

While it is definately cool looking, seeing the rain "fizzle" and evaporate on Kyle's saber blade in the swamp, it doesn't reflect what was later seen in AOTC with Obi-Wan's saber.*

Anyway, it was annoying to have your saber turn off in water, and seemed to be contradicted by AOTC. Otherwise I think the "movie feel" was just enough: it contributed to the game atmosphere without sacraficing the gameplay noticeably.













* I guess we could speculate that Obi-Wan was using a cheap-o padawan's saber, one that wasn't as water resistent as the one he uses later. He did lose his saber down a shaft in TPM after all.

razorace
05-15-2003, 06:07 PM
We've seen NOTHING of the claimed engine additions. Prerelease feature lists mean jack. If they actually have rag doll physics, why haven't we seen it yet? Why? Because it isn't in the game yet! :P

While I apprecaite the work that Raven is doing. They still haven't shown us anything worth full game price yet (when we already have JK2). Why should we buy JKA when there are over interesting titles like Deus Ex 2 and Half-Life 2 in the pipeway?

Prime
05-15-2003, 06:09 PM
Originally posted by Kurgan
I guess we could speculate that Obi-Wan was using a cheap-o padawan's saber, one that wasn't as water resistent as the one he uses later. He did lose his saber down a shaft in TPM after all. My theory always was that there is a big difference between a lightsaber operating with water on it (rain in AOTC) and operating while it was fully submerged. Sort of like water-resistant watches :)

razorace
05-15-2003, 06:23 PM
I agree. Anyway, I think this is a bit off topic.

shock ~ unnamed
05-15-2003, 06:40 PM
If 49.99 is that big of a deal then don't buy it.

Considering thousands of dollars I've spent on utter **** titles over the last decade or so I'm more than willing to fork over 50 bucks for "more of the same" because that "same" kicked ass.

Solbe M'ko
05-15-2003, 07:03 PM
Holy cow! This thread just grew a lot in a couple hours!:)

To touch on my last post, as well as shock's post:
The computer games industry is THE most profitable entertainment industry in the world. Low production costs/ High demand/ high prices.

Anyway, maybe i wasn't clear about my expansion pack comment. I meant that, although it has new features, it's still going to be the same game, the play style will not change. Also, if anyone has played Mech 4 Mercs, they would know that it had:

A non-linear progression system

New special effects

New models

New maps

It was still an expansion. I don't think that JA is an expansion in the classical sense, like C&C Red Alert or anything, I just mean that it is not a new project, more of a continuation of JO. It's not just the engine; this game did not take as long as JO (I think), nor did it really change anything, like JO did to JK.

Final Point- The dual saber/staff animations looked almost identical to those in some of the JO mods out there. I think this game is half-baked, not that it's bad.

FINAL Final Point- Do you think some of the sabers in KOTOR will have belt-mounted power supplies?

StormHammer
05-15-2003, 07:03 PM
Originally posted by shock ~ unnamed
If 49.99 is that big of a deal then don't buy it.

Considering thousands of dollars I've spent on utter **** titles over the last decade or so I'm more than willing to fork over 50 bucks for "more of the same" because that "same" kicked ass.

Well, I haven't spent that much on games...but I agree with the sentiment. :)

Everything I've seen and read so far indicates that JA will be better than JO.

Solbe M'ko
05-15-2003, 07:05 PM
Second.

Rumor
05-15-2003, 07:53 PM
Originally posted by Smood
FORGET MOVIE!!! (Although I might have liked this)

AT LEAST GIVE ME A GAME WITH REALISM. Give me a game with EXCELLENT animation, not swing a saber so damn quickly and jerkely that you cannot see it.



Listen all I know it is a game, but its attitudes like that, that hinder games from progressing to new levels. Instead, think of it as a conveyance of imagination, give it more meaning then it might even deserve, and watch games flourish and accelerate technologically. if you hate it so much and aren't satisfied with what they are doing then do the following:

1. go to school
2. graduate elementary school
3. graduate middle school
4. graduate from high school
5. go to full sail or ITT Tech and learn programming
6. make your own engine
7. make your own game

want to know why its so fast paced? BECAUSE ITS ON THE QUAKE 3 ENGINE. get a freaking clue if you are gonna bitch about everything

razorace
05-15-2003, 08:03 PM
uh, the engine has nothing to do with the pacing. It's a design decision made by Raven.

Solbe M'ko
05-15-2003, 09:07 PM
:burn1: BURN! :burn1:

Zodiac
05-15-2003, 09:36 PM
Originally posted by Smood
Zodiac, In what way did they make this closer to the movie! By saying this you must have no clue what realism is. ELABORATE on your vague rebuttle.
They probably aren't making JKA closer to the movies, or they probably are. I'm actually not sure which option they're doing, I just can't judge it from what I've seen from the trailer. But what I am sure of is that I don't even care if JKA's really close to the movie or not. All I want it to be is a fun game. If more fun means getting rid of some elements that make it close to the movie, then so be it.
I think my point of view is very similar to that of Spider Al's and Emon's, so a lot of what I wanted to say has been already said. Cheers.

Emon
05-15-2003, 10:07 PM
Lets look at the situation for a minute.

On one side, you've got Smood, a JO player who has novice to intermediate skill at most when it comes to game design.

On the other side, you have Raven, who has been developing games for over a decade, and is one of the most wanted developing companies on the market.

Raven has reasons for making the saber combat system the way they did. Probably because something true to the movies like stupid fanboys want isn't very feasable with current technology. They know what they're doing, and they have good reasons for every major aspect of development.

Smood on the other hand, has probably no experience in the field, therfore doesn't know what is possible and what. He's also making judgements about a game for which he's seen only screenshots and a short trailer. He's also spewing out lies about the first game, which just really boosts his credibility. :rolleyes:

Solbe M'ko
05-15-2003, 10:27 PM
Does holding your crystal ball all day give you callouses? I'm just wondering as you seem to be extraordinarily clairvoyant.

Emon
05-15-2003, 10:30 PM
To whom do you speak?

Jolts
05-15-2003, 10:32 PM
what is everyones version of true to the movies saber combat? I hear people say but no one has defined it.

razorace
05-15-2003, 10:57 PM
Originally posted by Emon
Lets look at the situation for a minute.

On one side, you've got Smood, a JO player who has novice to intermediate skill at most when it comes to game design.

On the other side, you have Raven, who has been developing games for over a decade, and is one of the most wanted developing companies on the market.
Experience doesn't always result in quality. There's an @$$load of games, movies, books, etc that prove that.

As for Raven as a company, they've always put out ok games. IE nothing that I've considered mindblowing. So that's what I'd expect in the future from JKA and other titles.

Basically, don't rail on Smood. He's got every right to have his own opinion on JKA.

JEDI OUTCAST
05-15-2003, 11:28 PM
god guys. you are pulling down the game now wait till its out will you i meen it will not stop you from buying it will it no. ...<snip>...you did that with jo saying that jo sucked and how it df2 was better. just wait till the game is out. i will be getting it no matter what you guys say. The trailer has confirmed my fears bit what fears the trailer rocks...<snip>...

From Vagabond: You are being officially warned, JEDI OUTCAST - do not call people names, and do not speak in a hostile manner toward others. State your opinion civilly, or don't state it at all. I have edited out the offending material from this post. Further transgressions may result in post deletions, or possibly banning. Thank you in advance for your cooperation, and I hope you enjoy your stay at LucasForums.

razorace
05-15-2003, 11:39 PM
At least we know what the enter key does. :D

Solbe M'ko
05-16-2003, 12:04 AM
My english teachers must all be rolling in thier graves right now, Outcast. That is, if they're dead.

BloodRiot
05-16-2003, 12:12 AM
If you notice clearly at the trailer, there's quite a few bugs in it... I'm convinced they are the typical bugs of a still unfinished game since it's not normal for a game company to put a title on the stand that has the characters face facing the opponent all the time while the rest of the body spins around... that would be a serious contortionist feat if you ask me (check the part i nthe trailer where the rodian Character with green double saber slashes a weequay...see it frame by frame).

I am gonna buy the game even if it's just JO with a few more novelties. Why? Well first cuz that trailer doesnt come even close to prove me the game sucks...If my mind is set on seeing a certain movie at the local theater and a few people I know already saw it and say it sucked...I go anyway... I happened to disagree with those people on some ocasions regarding movies...the opposite has also happen...people say blairwitch project rocked...and I totally thought the movie was a waste of time...but hey that's just me.

watching the trailer i can see somethings i wished to be changed like the lightning fast gameplay... i dont exactly like sluggish games but i think that fast is exagerate... im not gonna condemn the game to burn in Hades flames for that tho... I was also hoping for a more interesting double bladed saber handling... oh well... too bad.. on the other hand dual sabers look kick@ss.

Level design seems pretty interesting if you ask me.
Now there's news about an Assault game type...thumbs up Raven.
The character custumization works fine from what I saw...nice!
Burnt out character wounds....hmmm that wampa looked like he was all rigged with xmas lights... better make the saber deal more damage before that happens. Show potential either way.
This time we are a true jedi learner... kyle was a good character but that reluctant jedi role was getting on my nerves...again thumbs up Raven.

Guyz... I'm a modder...I ahve been ever since JK1... do you want to know why im a modder? cuz im picky as hell and no game EVER was built 100% to my taste... sometimes i spend more time changing a game than actually playing it... the first thing i said when i tried JO was... "my god..this game sure needs some new models for MP... these suck!"... I am gonna buy the game... if i dont like it... i'll change it the way i can... what i can't...some other modder will do that eventually. I've been paying close attention to renegadeofphunk's movie battles mod cuz it introduced something i liked into the game.

Now you may not want to buy a game that has to be modded i nthe first place... i can surely understand that... but i think it's too rash to pass judgement on the game now...when it's not completed and you didnt try the game yourselves.

I may eventually hate the game...but i wont know until i play it.

Right now my mind is set on buying it...and hopefully....MODDING IT :)

Jolts
05-16-2003, 12:40 AM
One thing I think they could have cleaned up between the 2 games is how well grounded people are to the enviorment. Right now it is still the old JO way of looking more like your skiing on the ground playing different animations. Scrub through the dakr jedi kicking the player, and just watch the foot work. Instead of rocking back on his foot keeping it grounded and in place it slides back behind him rotating the entire body.

Its a small thing and its something most people might not think they notice, but it would help clean up some of the gameplay. Movement speed being the second thing to clean up, but if any puzzles were built taking speed of the player into account they won't think twice about tweaking that. There are lots of other ways to make gameplay fast paced w/o having to actually move at light speed.

As far as making the sabers like the movie, I think what people really mean is being able to swing the saber left to right, right to left, top to bottom w/o having to actually move. But also at the same time being able to do those same moves while moving in any direction creating total user control. It worked great in obi wan and let you pull off some cool attacks in groups or solo jedi fighting.

Prime
05-16-2003, 01:17 AM
Originally posted by Jolts
what is everyones version of true to the movies saber combat? I hear people say but no one has defined it. I don't know about other people, but for me movie lightsaber fighting is all about lightning quick attacks and counter attacks. Flips and jumps and super human moves. That's why I love JO. It provides that for me.

Originally posted by Solbe M'ko
It's not just the engine; this game did not take as long as JO (I think), nor did it really change anything, like JO did to JK.
What more do you want them to change? You've seen the rough list of new features and improvements. How much more is needed before it counts as a "new game"?

Break_dF
05-16-2003, 01:22 AM
Originally posted by Solbe M'ko
My english teachers must all be rolling in thier graves right now, Outcast. That is, if they're dead.

Calling fbi now.

Emon
05-16-2003, 04:29 AM
Well yeah, sorry Smood I did overreact a bit there. But I think you are, too. You're making assumptions based off very little information, and that's the problem.

Emon
05-16-2003, 04:43 AM
By the way, if you had jerky animations in JO, you've got some serious problems on your system. JO has some of the smoothest, most realistic animations I've seen in a long time. MP borks up the running sometimes, but nowhere near as bad as you make it out to be.

razorace
05-16-2003, 05:00 AM
I agree. I don't see how JK2's animations are any worse than any other FPS on the market.

Jolts
05-16-2003, 05:02 AM
are you talking about what I said?

Prime
05-16-2003, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by Emon
By the way, if you had jerky animations in JO, you've got some serious problems on your system. JO has some of the smoothest, most realistic animations I've seen in a long time. This is my experience also. I have a Pentium IV and a G3 video card, and my game runs as smooth as silk. No jerkyness anywhere to be found. Except maybe my play :)

The Count
05-16-2003, 04:19 PM
JKII's animations are very smooth, however they are also very bland, Especially the medium stance swing, what I didn't like on the trailer was when the Dual Saber was ignited that the same animation for that was used when the Jedi slashed the grate, I was quite dissapointed at that, however the game isn't completed yet so that could be subject to change.

Prime
05-16-2003, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by Count_D00ku
however the game isn't completed yet so that could be subject to change. Yeah, the game is still five months away, so there will be plenty of time for tweeking and improvements.

Jolts
05-16-2003, 05:53 PM
I'm not talking about jerky animations or poor animation, watch the trailer again and just focus on the kick and tell me what you notice. Load up a level in JO and spawn a reborn acrobat run around him when he does flips, or jump on on something and tell me does it stick his hand or is he alreadying floating at you before the feet are planted on the ground?

Proto
05-16-2003, 06:28 PM
The trailer is missing frames, thats why the animation looks this way. JO mov trailer had the same problems and I was really concerned about animations but they turned out very well eventually. Anyway just look at the finishing move that Twi'lek is applying to laying Tusken. In 80 fps game animation it will look much like the spinning stab that Oi-Wan used to finish acklay at Geonosis arena. But right now you must watch it frame by frame to notice that she spins her sabers twice before stabbing. Same goes to most of animations you can see in this trailer. In fact when you learn to live with it you can see all improvements like vast open areas, rideable tauntauns, saber and weapon burns and so on.

Concerning gameplay pace, I guess it's also because of the movie capturing method. Again it was the same effect in JO trailer.

Other problem, as mentioned, are some animation bugs wchich is normal at this stage of development. Look at the beggining of the scene whit your character pushing this ugly-textured rock. You can see him standing in default skeleton position. It looks unnatural and shouldn't be there.

And remember promises about great interaction between character animation and world. It must be there, so JA should't repeat JO's errors in this matter.

Jolts
05-16-2003, 06:50 PM
Its not a missing frames of animation problem, its not keeping things stuck, the feet snap back behind the root joint of the player. Load up JO and watch how floaty everything moves, when you jump and land you slide forward vs sticking your landing. If a reborn cartwheels, and you run around behind them, they float around behind you still doing the cartwheel vs being stucking following through that action, getting back into stance, then moving after you.

It is part in the actual animation and part of how the engine handles it. Load up Jo, do the default saber swing and notice how the feet rock around vs just showing shift of weight in the knees? So when you run forward, stop swing you get these sliding feet? hard to describe w/o an actual good quality clip to compare this to.

If you do a cartwheel your hand doesn't stick to the ground where it firsts starts and then let the rest of the body fall into place it slides along the floor and if you look around with the mouse the whole body just rotates around and not from the hand pivot, but from the root.

Its just a detail like no more player clipping in walls, something of low low priority that won't be changed.

JediBozQ
05-16-2003, 07:25 PM
I think some are being too paranoid.

Jedi Academy is a 'First Person Shooter' with the use of the lightsaber in place of firepower.

We all here have known Star Wars to be full of myths, fantasy and bull****. No one in this world, can ever jump five stories high nor can move objects with our mind. Not to mention a Lightsaber. Does all this appear in reality? I dont need to answer that at all. There is no need to be too realistic in the game. All the effects about being able to see the Force powers are just to give the game a nice dramatic feel.

Jedi Academy was initiated to emphasise on the Lightsaber combat. Jedi Outcast were all about one handed to one handed saber combat, now in JA we got more variety. And now in JA, we get to choose stages, how much better can that get?

I was thrilled with the E3 trailer but what erks me is the HUD. Its kinda ugly, messy and it takes up too much space in the game. I hope there is an option to hide it or at least change it on the final product. Even if those two doesnt happen, that wont stop me from buying the game nontheless.

And if you happened to be one of those who were not impressed with the game, download the demo first then. I'm sure they will do it since JO also had that. Download it and have a hands on preview. You never know, but the Double Saber would be a nice Lightsaber experience in ANY Star Wars game

Proto
05-16-2003, 07:39 PM
Jolts: Yeah, I was refering rather to animation being jerky, as I didn't fully understand what you meant in your post. What you're saying is true- there is some sort of friction reduction effect that causes character moving quicker than he should judging by walk animation. Also when he should stop, he sort of slides a meter or so before holding. Or during wall running, where the feets don't actually touch the wall.

But, to be frank, it started to bother me when I was working on video clip from JO. It's really hard to notice during actual gameplay.

And yes, it's not corrected in JA. You can see the sliding walk in the very first scene of the trailer, or in mentioned scene with rock being pushed. But again, it does't bother me at all.

However I'm still optimistic about the improvment of colision detection in terms of character animation being limited by map geometry.

Jolts
05-16-2003, 08:15 PM
Its just one of those small things that gets me for some reason. I see why its there, based on how the original animations were done, but then I question why were the orginal animations done that way? lack of time? lack of attention to detail? who knows...

Maybe it gets me because I've seen so many games before JO was even released that had already solved this problem including the crappy obi wan. And when I look back at that game now I see more core elements that it got right that JKA could of actually learned from. When I look at both games they are both missing what the other had now that I think about it.

Spider AL
05-16-2003, 08:21 PM
Originally posted by Smood:

Calling me a fanboy over and over constantly reminds me you don't TRULY understand my vision, or me as a player.Did you really just use the word "vision" in that context? Without self-deprecation? If so, my advice to you is to stop taking your own ideas so seriously. As for understanding you yourself, do I need to understand you as a person to understand that what you are doing is both counter-productive and annoying? ie: picking holes in a game that hasn't been released yet, just as you picked holes in JO, a game you didn't seem to like at all and yet you carried on telling everyone exactly what you didn't like about it, instead of merely not playing the game, or making a mod. Just talking eternally about your grand design to improve the game is not, in my considered opinion, constructive. Firstly, many people who enjoy the Dark Forces games AS THEY STAND, wouldn't enjoy this game you've dreamed up. Secondly, you're not getting anything done to create the game you want. Make mods with people who feel the same way as you. Lots of mods. Then everyone will be happy. You won't have ruined the game for the rest of us, and you'll have something that's closer to what you want.

Besides that, (the most constructive advice I can think of to give you,) all this character animation/sabre-look subtleties stuff (and everything comparable to it) is what I would call petty. I mean, I don't care about whether the sabre in motion is fan-shaped or not. I don't care whether it matches the movies. I don't care whether Kyle's feet jiggle about unconvincingly as he turns, or remain static. It's all so irrelevant to the game experience. Furthermore, they make the game as realistic as the engine allows, give or take. You might as well complain that Kyle's beard hairs never move in the wind. Or that fields should be millions of individual blades of grass. It's that pointless.

And even if Raven were to botch it intentionally, cut corners and NOT make the game as well as they can, what then? If you don't like what they produce, you don't like it. If I don't like a game, I just don't play it. I used to think everyone would do the same. Obviously, I was mistaken. Why? Because this game is Star Wars. And Star Wars fans? They seem to think the world owes them something: A game that only exists inside their heads.

Realistic character animations? Sure. When the average home system has the spec to support totally realistic character animations. And on a side note, totally realistic character animation hasn't been accomplished yet. The seams are easy to see even in productions like Lord of the Rings and Matrix Re. Does that annoy me? No. I don't know why such things annoy you in a Jedi Knight game.

Originally posted by Smood:

If you are disgusted with my comments with your 'ugh' comment, please do not reply.Actually I think I'll continue to oppose your viewpoint. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Jolts:

Its just a detail like no more player clipping in walls, something of low low priority that won't be changed.And quite right too. It SHOULD be low priority, because it's purely cosmetic AND negligible at that. It doesn't affect gameplay, and most people won't even notice it. Of those that do, myself included, even less will care.

Jolts
05-16-2003, 08:45 PM
"Realistic character animations? Sure. When the average home system has the spec to support totally realistic character animations. And on a side note, totally realistic character animation hasn't been accomplished yet. The seams are easy to see even in productions like Lord of the Rings and Matrix Re. Does that annoy me? No. I don't know why such things annoy you in a Jedi Knight game."

I guess the average home system is the low end system requirements for half-life 2, since that actually does have muscle sim in the face and is expected to be released before JKA. Also a lot of the big movements for JO and JKA are mocapped I don't know how much more realistic you can get, but its there. I think your taking the realism statement too seriously.

At the end of the day I could care less about the light saber or the force or single player, I'm in it for MP only. In mp I use guns, I'll bust out the saber for a giggle now and then. I would still like to see it be the best it can be for other players who will use it.

Spider AL
05-16-2003, 09:13 PM
Also a lot of the big movements for JO and JKA are mocapped I don't know how much more realistic you can get, but its there. I think your taking the realism statement too seriously.Nah, merely trying to point out that if you're unhappy about such tiny tiny concerns now, you'll never enjoy any game. That IS the point of games, to enjoy them. Realism? Nothing short of real life is realistic.

I know you'll probably be thinking: "He doesn't get it, I don't want it to be 100% realistic, I just want more realism." But I do get it. Now, I was happy playing JK1. Nothing about the animations annoyed me. The game was what it was. Likewise JO, and in future, JA. More realism? How much is enough? If the negligible, animation "problems" (I use quotes there, because they are not, in fact, problems.) are important enough to you to annoy you, I have no doubt that you'll find something else that annoys you with each improvement that occurs.

To my mind, Smood and yourself (among others) are looking for problems where none exist. There are cosmetic concerns, perhaps, but that's just so trivial when compared to the larger gameplay issues.

Jolts
05-16-2003, 09:32 PM
As a modeller and animator, my eye picks these things up first thing. Is it wrong to want improvements? did I ever say I'll never be happy with this game as long as I live? I see no harm in nitpicking at the game. I could sit here and just say "can you wait until it comes out?" "no, can you?" "no I'm really excited, and you?" "yeah me too, and you?" "totally..."

When I make a model or animation and people reference back to real life I don't snap back and say "yeah well it looks real enough so back off, you know nothing, its all about the general shape not the details sucka!" Even if its a cartoony loony tunes animation or model.

Where is the harm in pushing people to do better and better?

Spider AL
05-16-2003, 09:48 PM
As a modeller and animator, my eye picks these things up first thing. Is it wrong to want improvements?Improvements are one thing, cosmetics are quite another. It's equivalent to lamenting the fact that the health indicator on the HUD isn't the ideal shade of burnt sienna. Furthermore, "THE GAME IS IRREVOCABLY TAINTED because of these trivial animation concerns, Raven are foolish fooly fools" is the sentiment that comes across from threads like this, and posts like those written by Smood and yourself, and it's just not useful in any way, is it. Not to mention the fact that they've been going on for OVER A YEAR NOW. Uuugh.

/me shudders

I could sit here and just say "can you wait until it comes out?" "no, can you?" "no I'm really excited, and you?" "yeah me too, and you?" "totally..."That would be similarly constructive to what you're doing at the moment. "The game's just moved to the end of the list" et al.

Where is the harm in pushing people to do better and better?Even if the animators from Raven read this thread, to get to any constructive criticism at all, they'd have to wade through mounds and mounds of bitter (and oft repeated) statements from people like Smood and yourself, attacking the animators, claiming that the game's going to be crap just because of these trivial concerns, etcetera.

If I was an animator working for Raven, I very very much doubt that I'd have enough respect for the people, to listen to their "advice". Pushing them to do better and better? Pushing them to ignore the voice of the community forever, more like.

did I ever say I'll never be happy with this game as long as I live? I see no harm in nitpicking at the gameWell, since even you call it "nitpicking" surely you can see my point. Besides, it doesn't matter whether you've said you'd never be happy, it's a natural progression. He who is initially displeased with trifles will always be the hardest to please.

TheBlueFlamingo
05-16-2003, 10:34 PM
I wish a moderator would lock this thread. Its just old, anoying, and pointelss.

P.S. I 100% agree with Spider Al. Jolts and the others, grow up. Untill you make a game yourself, you can't do much about it.

And there is a big defference between pushing yourself to be better, and pushing others. Pushing others to do stuff up to your standards is just....... I dont know the word, ignorant? maybe. who knows

MattJedi
05-16-2003, 10:35 PM
Rofl!!!!! I just thought it was really funny that somone complained about the swimming animation in JO, lol!! If you want to swim go jump in a lake!! hehe

As for the rest of the complaints about JA I am shocked, I think Raven is doing a bang up job. I mean even if it isnt exactly like the movies, when have you ever seen a video game that has been exactly like the movies? I have only seen games that try to be like the movies and fail miserably and piss me off when I go through some level that wasnt even in the movie. The stuff Raven is adding to the game is to make it more movie like but its not going to be perfect because nothing is.

Why don't people focus on the good things about the game and not the bad all the time, be optomistic maybe the animations will be smoother then the trailer lets on, it is only a trailer and they said they are improving it so just wait and see. Most of the time trailers are crap anyway. I mean damn they are so small and confining, you have to live in a park with all these crappy crack head neighbors around, and the place smells ****.

Also there is a reason they are making it easy to modify because they know some people are just gonna hate seeing some stuff they put in like the force push bubble, hehe, i think thats great that they put that in there! It pisses people off!! lol!!!

One things for sure, Seige mode is gonna rock, there is no way it can't, all the other games Raven has created with an objective based mode have been awesome.

Jolts
05-16-2003, 10:35 PM
Furthermore, "THE GAME IS IRREVOCABLY TAINTED because of these trivial animation concerns, Raven are foolish fooly fools"

Quote me where I said that? There is difference between looking at tech issues vs color schemes on the hud. If I don't like the hud color I know I can rip open that pack file and change it in 5 seconds, if I don't think an animation is showing weight, sticking its pose, or anything else like that I can't go in and change it.

"Even if the animators from Raven read this thread, to get to any constructive criticism at all, they'd have to wade through mounds and mounds of bitter (and oft repeated) statements from people like Smood and yourself, attacking the animators, claiming that the game's going to be crap just because of these trivial concerns, etcetera."

again, where have I ever said this game is going be crap and suck because of this? all I said is this is a small detail that would have been cool if they fixed. Then other people come along take personal offense to it and blow up into a 3 page arguement that breaks down into "I'm right because I'm right, and your wrong because your wrong"

And where have I made a direct attack at raven animators saying "raven animators suck"? might as well now...btw my ex roommate is an animator at raven, so I would have no hard feelings ripping into him if I wanted.

here is 2 examples of a kick, you tell me which one looks defined and well posed and still holding clean deformation

http://www.lucasarts.com/products/jediacademy/images/screens/10.jpg

http://www.lucasarts.com/products/galaxies/images/model/8.jpg

http://starwarsgalaxies.station.sony.com/media/qtswg/brawler.htm

and because I notice things like this and make comments on it, I'm the big dick?

"Besides, it doesn't matter whether you've said you'd never be happy, it's a natural progression. He who is initially displeased with trifles will always be the hardest to please."

Now you tell me how I will act in the furture? maybe you should get a crystal ball and start charging people. What is the point in even trying to have a conversation with you if you?

I think your starting to turn into what you hate the most.... a fanboy, not a sw fanboy but a raven fanboy.

I'll end this right now, you guys don't like what I have to say, it hurts your feelings? Make the bad man go away? Like dust in the wind....

Spider AL
05-16-2003, 11:01 PM
Originally posted by Jolts:

Quote me where I said that?You'd better read the line in context, Jolts, because I obviously never claimed you had said it.

Originally posted by Jolts:

There is difference between looking at tech issues vs color schemes on the hud. If I don't like the hud color I know I can rip open that pack file and change it in 5 seconds, if I don't think an animation is showing weight, sticking its pose, or anything else like that I can't go in and change it.You prove another one of my points. Since you can't do anything about the animations it's even MORE pointless ranting on about them than if you were ranting about HUD colours. And they're both petty. That WAS the original point.

Originally posted by Jolts:

again, where have I ever said this game is going be crap and suck because of this? Clearly implied when you posted this line: "Out of all the game expected this fall/winter this game just moved to the end of the list for me."

Originally posted by Jolts:

all I said is this is a small detail that would have been cool if they fixed. Wrong, see above.

Originally posted by Jolts:

Then other people come along take personal offense to it and blow up into a 3 page arguement that breaks down into "I'm right because I'm right, and your wrong because your wrong"Actually people have "come along" in order to tell you and Smood to stop obsessing over trivia, which you patently are. You're the ones arguing about it.

Originally posted by Jolts:

and because I notice things like this and make comments on it, I'm the big dick?Well, not the words I would have chosen, but to cut a long story short, yes. It's petty and pointless, in my considered opinion.

Originally posted by Jolts:

Now you tell me how I will act in the furture?No, I honestly won't tell you how you will act in the furture. I will tell you this: You're exhibiting behaviour I consider to be wrong, for the reasons I've expressed above. People don't change often, therefore you'll continue that behaviour regardless of what Raven does. That's not precognition, it's playing the odds.

Originally posted by Jolts:

I think your starting to turn into what you hate the most.... a fanboy, not a sw fanboy but a raven fanboy.The word "fanboy" implies immaturity. It does not, therefore, fit. Try "fan of JO".

StormHammer
05-17-2003, 12:59 AM
Okay, people, that's enough. If you want to continue bickering, go and do it via PMs, ICQ, MSN, or whatever other means of communications you prefer - but keep it out of these discussion threads. If you can't debate in a reasonable fashion...then just agree to disagree and let it lie.

Any more to-and-fro 'you said this' and 'I didn't say that' posts will just get deleted from this point forward...so you may just as well not post them.

*goes and takes an aspirin*

Now, does anyone have anything constructive to add to the overall topic - i.e., before it went off the rails?

Solbe M'ko
05-17-2003, 04:46 AM
I do! I do! But I also have something to add to this pointless argument, so I'll put THAT in italics (classy, huh?).

The trailer showed very little of the actual game, yes, but I think it's better to show the real deal or nothing at all. I understand that E3 is the best place to pitch your new game (not to me, to the game mags), but I think lucasarts should have put this trailer off until it had something to show. To me, the trailer looked like a very well done JO mod (which is basically what JA is, but that's a whole other thread). I can't remember exact titles, but there have been several games that blew me away when I played them, as opposed to months before. I like to be surprised, what can I say, and I would have prefered to learn about this game from a friend of a friend. But that's just me.

Now for the BS! (cue music)

The "realism" of a game should not be though of as real-world "realism" if you follow. It should be thought of as attention to detail. A post earlier in this thread said that Star Wars games could not have realism because they did not have real storylines, technology, etc. Neither did Rainbow Six, Medal of Honor (Ugh!) or any other game with a "real world" theme. The reality of a game is confined to the space/time the game encompasses. So saying that JA should have more realism than JO is not to say that Kyle Katarn's character should be replaced with a businessman, his lightsaber replaced with a briefcase, and his spaceship replaced with a Chevie. It means that his feet should touch the ground, his saber shouldn't go through his legs, and bad guys shouldn't get stuck inside one another.

Whew!:o

Blamer
05-17-2003, 10:31 PM
For the record, I'm not a big fan of how the animations look in JO/JA either. Until saber movement is effectively independent of leg movement, saber combat will always be unrealistic and it will always look weird, simply because you have to constantly be running in order to use more than one type of slash.

Foot movement will always be unrealistic and disconcerting unless the engine gets a major overhaul...the game doesn't care about what your feet are doing unless they get shot or hit a ledge while jumping. This is fine for a point-and-shoot game like Quake 3, but it looks disconcerting in a game like this, where what your feet and legs are doing should be a huge deal.

That's the way it is, and you can't flame or bitch your way around it. Now, the room for interpretation is in how much it actually matters to the game. Personally, I can't say I ever felt compelled to post about it until I ran into this poor excuse for a thread. That doesn't give me a reason to flame people who want the game to behave more realistically or convincingly. Nor will I lash out at people who are satisfied with the current system.

Solo4114
05-18-2003, 01:03 AM
I'd love to see a sabre system that actually lets you stand STILL and fight without having to constantly be running around. I think that may be one of the things about this game and pretty much all of the JK games that made it seem less "movie" like, less "realistic", or whatever you want to call it. I think it also makes the game more "quake like" because, as in quake, you're constantly on the move. Whether that's your cup of tea or not, well, that's a different matter.

The question you have to ask yourself, however, is: is it possible? From what I'm seeing in some of these posts, it looks like people want the following:

1.) the ability to swing the sabre in any direction while standing still OR

2.) the ability to swing the sabre in a set of pre-defined directions (basically along the 8 basic cutting lines of sword fighting -- straight up, straight down, left to right, right to left, and the diagonals in both upwards and downwards strokes) without moving AND

3.) The ability to do the same when moving.

In addition, I imagine people would also want certain "special" moves (flips, backstabs, etc.), as well as blocking abilities, and the ability to do combinations of moves.

Now, I know we've got a lot of keys on a keyboard, and we've got the mouse too, but I wonder if it would be possible to create a streamlined control system to do all of this. One that wouldn't be overly cumbersome, one that wouldn't require you to become some over-sugared hyperactive pre-teen who's memorized all the Mortal Kombat combinations (yes, they always kicked my ass and I'm still bitter -- what's your point? :) ). One that would be fun, complex, but not complicated.

Now, I haven't played Obi-Wan, but I have played around with a few other X-box games. One thing I thought about when playing those games was how the analog controllers would NOT be really possible to implement on a mouse-keyboard combo. I don't know if that's how you controlled things in Obi-Wan, but it'd seem that having THAT degree of control would be near impossible without some sort of analog controller that basically let you move your sabre anywhere you wanted.

On the other hand, maybe it is possible. I dunno.

I still haven't seen this trailer, since I'm on dial-up at the moment, but what I really hope for has nothing to do with animations and everything to do with sabre lethality and stances that compliment each other and such. I don't mind special moves as long as they're not uber moves, since that will cause the game to get boring when all people do is spam 'em.

Solbe M'ko
05-18-2003, 01:06 AM
Off topic: Why doesn't the current MP patch use the same backstab style as SP? You can't spin in SP, but you don't miss by mere centimetres either. It's better.

boinga1
05-18-2003, 01:48 AM
Originally posted by Solo4114
I'd love to see a sabre system that actually lets you stand STILL and fight without having to constantly be running around. I think that may be one of the things about this game and pretty much all of the JK games that made it seem less "movie" like, less "realistic", or whatever you want to call it. I think it also makes the game more "quake like" because, as in quake, you're constantly on the move. Whether that's your cup of tea or not, well, that's a different matter.

The question you have to ask yourself, however, is: is it possible? From what I'm seeing in some of these posts, it looks like people want the following:

1.) the ability to swing the sabre in any direction while standing still OR


Have you seen, in any SW movie, two Jedi just STAND STILL and fight? No movement? No. Can you imagine how goofy it woyld look, two guys standing still, doing all kinkds of great looking swings? Oh, the model deformation we would see. PLEASE notce that when Jedi do nice moves in the movies, they are moving at all times. Hence, having to move to swing differently is more realistic and true to the movies.

Jolts
05-18-2003, 01:57 AM
Solo: It is possible to replicate the analog stick on a pc, but it does eat up at least 3 keys. The other thing about all those consoles games even the fps's, is that movement is also pressure sensitive. The only game I've seen that solved that was splinter cell by using the mouse wheel is increase/decrease movement speed. And any game that does that, then has to redo all the inbetweens in movement speeds and have animations system that can do a nice blend.

As for recreating the analog stick, say they used the 3 buttons on the mouse for 3 degrees of motion. Swing left, swing right, overhead swing. Now you can standstill and while moving and swing anyway you want, but now they have a bunch of ai they have update inorder to do the same. It also makes you pretty accurate and then creates issues of being able to drop 20 people in 10 seconds. Now where will the game be a challenge? What happens when you switch to a gun?This is all sp related of course.

In the end they would have to also update the blocking system to match it, and they just don't have the time. One system change like that creates a whole web of new problems to fix and that won't happen.

Boinga: I think you missed the point, it supposed to create a more accurate system. What happens on a small catwalk with a saber fight in JO? since the movements cover so much ground you come close to falling off all the time. The system other games have come up with lets still move and attack, but now you press forward and not be limited to the types of attacks you do.

Solo4114
05-18-2003, 02:25 AM
Right, Jolts, that's my point. You can theoretically map tons of buttons and variations (shift+ buttons, CTRL+ buttons, alt+ buttons, whatever), but you're left with a pretty cumbersome set of controls. It's either that or have a ton of combos a la a fighting game. I just don't see it really working that well for the PC system.

I actually like the sabre swinging system we have now, although, I would like not having to constantly be running while doing it. Boinga, you're right that jedi don't typically stand still while attacking and defending, but when engaged in sabre vs. sabre combat (as opposed to vs. blasters), the movement is much different from what we see currently in the game.

As far as the standing still comment, that's not about actually physically standing still (although, if you're in a sword fight, you don't want to be running and jumping all over the place -- puts you off balance) but rather being more centered in terms of the movements. As it stands currently, you have to run in a particular direction to execute any move other than a basic swing. I'd like to see that changed so that you can execute more than just one particular swing while stationary, as well as keeping the running moves.

As far as running while attacking goes, one improvement from 1.02 to 1.03, I thought, was the fact that sabre fights seemed less like jousting matches and more like actual duels. In 1.02, it always felt to me like people were simply running and timing red swings. Whoever got in the first three red hits, won the day. Not much duelling there... With 1.03, you could actually stand your ground, block an attack, and then launch one of your own (which would often be blocked, or the other person would just backstab you). The problems that 1.03 created outweighed this improvement, but I still view it as an improvement of sorts. I'm hoping that JA will learn from these mistakes.

Sure, in the movies, people jump and flip and such, and that's cool to look at. It'd be cool to play that way too, but I think that as far as sabre vs. sabre fighting goes, I'd prefer a more grounded approach, where you only execute the flipping and spinning moves for a reason, not just to button-mash and hope to produce cool looking attacks. The moves should be used more tactically (as opposed to the current spamathon we have) and be used for breaking defenses, attacking from different angles, or taking advantage of openings in defenses, rather than simply dishing out the most damage or being unblockable.

This is going to get off topic if I go too far into this train of thought, however. Suffice to say, I'd like to see more thought out moves, and less button mashing which would hopefully remove the need to have uber moves or a particular uber stance of some sort. (though, alternatively, you could ditch this whole stance thing and just have moves, plain and simple)

Anyway, in terms of the actual animations, I'd love it if the game could be smart enough where your animations actually take place with you rooted to the floor. IE: if I perform a kick, the leg I'm standing on doesn't slide backwards and then plant. I don't mind if someone lifts their leg up and then plants it to kick, but the sliding thing just looks weird. I wonder, however, if this is actually possible in the Q3 engine, or rather, if it is possible, whether it's feasible/worthwhile to do so.

I know absolutely jack about the Q3 animations/model system, so I don't know if movements necessarily have to occur within a given box area (which would, it seems, require the current system), or if you can have the box move, depending on the particular animation.

Even if it is possible, would this require that animations suddenly become MUCH more complex, taking up more processor power or something along those lines? I honestly don't know (which is why I ask).

Solbe M'ko
05-18-2003, 03:39 PM
I don't play FFA and I usually only use red stance, but if youre on a little catwalk, hold down the run/walk key and you probably won't fall off.

If you want to stand still you should blow the dust off your playstation and play Masters of Teras Kasi. The system is pretty good as it is, IMO. Yes, there's too much spamming sometimes and you do get jumpy players, but if you find a good duel server with non-jackasses you can have alot of fun.

The saber defense system, however, needs a change. Certain moves should be unable to just break through your defenses like nothing, particularly red stance attacks and lunges. I'll be waiting to see what changes JA makes...

Spider AL
05-18-2003, 04:04 PM
Originally posted by Jolts:

I think you missed the point, it supposed to create a more accurate system. What happens on a small catwalk with a saber fight in JO? since the movements cover so much ground you come close to falling off all the time.Actually Jolts, every swing is reproducible with the bare minimum of movement. Tap right and fire together, with an infinitessimal delay between right, and fire. You will move all of one millimetre to the right, and perform the swing you want. You don't have to cover any ground at all. Timing is all you have to possess. Unforced catwalk errors among the skilled are rare, at best, and most counter-attacks contain very little lateral motion.

Originally posted by Solo4114:

Anyway, in terms of the actual animations, I'd love it if the game could be smart enough where your animations actually take place with you rooted to the floor. IE: if I perform a kick, the leg I'm standing on doesn't slide backwards and then plant. I don't mind if someone lifts their leg up and then plants it to kick, but the sliding thing just looks weird. I wonder, however, if this is actually possible in the Q3 engine, or rather, if it is possible, whether it's feasible/worthwhile to do so. Exactly Solo, exactly. I too would like all the animations to be picture perfect, but it's probably unfeasible and definitely trivial. I mean, who cares, really?

JDKnite188
05-18-2003, 04:46 PM
NO MORE BICKERING!!! I CAN'T TAKE IT! I had to wade through a conversational fragfest between Smood, Spider Al, and Jolts for most of this thread; that is sad.

The trailer looked pretty nice in my opinion, but the trailer just got my anticipation riding high once again. Tusken Raiders and Taun tauns will be something to see as well as the double bladed saber and lightstaff. Don't forget those new player models!

The new HUD will be something fresh, but it will take away from the classic DF hud thats been around. NP.

In a way this is going to be a major JO mod, but it will probably be a lot more than JO was ever. I just have two major questions:

1) Where was the MP footage in the trailer? Did I miss it if there was any? There was a good bit in the first JO trailer. Also, I heard of something called "seige mode." Is this just an idea or what or did i make this up in my head? It sounds like RtCW. It would be pretty sweet to have an objective based MP mode.

2) Where are the new guns? I think I saw a DL-44 blaster, but thats it. Hmm....

Caze
05-18-2003, 05:33 PM
This is to those who complain about the trailer. I agree that it looked a bit like JO, but I know that the game is going to look much better in reality than it looks in the trailer.
Jedi Academy will again be using a heavily modified version of the Quake III engine. Without doubt, everyone will detect the advance from Outcast to Academy.
Which means that those who have actually tested the game, know that the game looks better than JO and the trailer does not look as good as the game itself.

Jolts
05-18-2003, 05:44 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Solo4114:

Anyway, in terms of the actual animations, I'd love it if the game could be smart enough where your animations actually take place with you rooted to the floor. IE: if I perform a kick, the leg I'm standing on doesn't slide backwards and then plant. I don't mind if someone lifts their leg up and then plants it to kick, but the sliding thing just looks weird. I wonder, however, if this is actually possible in the Q3 engine, or rather, if it is possible, whether it's feasible/worthwhile to do so.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is possible, they did it with the rancor. Waiting for someone point that out, but no one did.

Solo4114
05-18-2003, 06:14 PM
Originally posted by Jolts
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Solo4114:

Anyway, in terms of the actual animations, I'd love it if the game could be smart enough where your animations actually take place with you rooted to the floor. IE: if I perform a kick, the leg I'm standing on doesn't slide backwards and then plant. I don't mind if someone lifts their leg up and then plants it to kick, but the sliding thing just looks weird. I wonder, however, if this is actually possible in the Q3 engine, or rather, if it is possible, whether it's feasible/worthwhile to do so.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is possible, they did it with the rancor. Waiting for someone point that out, but no one did.

Ah, well, I still haven't seen the trailer yet. Probably won't unless I get DSL set up here. How big is it anyway?

At any rate, if this COULD be done AND could be done in a way that wouldn't somehow screw up gameplay, and still meet the deadline while not sacrificing other issues (IE: sabre damage, newer, more interesting guns, etc.) I'd be for it. Otherwise, it's kind of a minor thing to me.

12345678
05-19-2003, 08:44 AM
as long as i live i will never understand the fanboy mentality. and for anyone who is confused as to the fanboy mentality, it is NOT simply sw fans wanting to make the games more like the movies. it is also people who defend the GAME reflexively.


and i will never understand this sort of thing:

a: "i dont like jk2"

b: "then dont play it or come to this board, and btw i dont like you"

wtf? are you guys related to raven? do they pay your bills? does the existence of people who dont like what you like SOMEHOW DETRACT FROM YOUR GAMING EXPERIENCE?

go look up ad hominem, then learn about why its a sign of mental weakness.

it is ludicrous to have the animation speeds not match the run speeds (ie the foot sliding thing). they should match, period, end of story. if the animated run was too slow to match the actual speed they wanted for gameplay purposes, they shouldve changed it, NOT fudged it. its plain lame to have an animation of a slow jog, when the players senses clearly tell him hes moving at max human run speed.

and people who say "there are force powers and youre worried about run speed?" truly dont get it, and probably never will. id explain about "suspension of disbelief" and how it relates to storytelling, but something tells me id be wasting my time.

Wacky_Baccy
05-19-2003, 09:00 AM
Posted by Solo4114
Ah, well, I still haven't seen the trailer yet. Probably won't unless I get DSL set up here. How big is it anyway?It's just under 18megs... Still worth it though, IMO :)

Direct link to it (http://www.lucasarts.com/products/jediacademy/images/movies/trailer_1.mov)
At any rate, if this COULD be done AND could be done in a way that wouldn't somehow screw up gameplay, and still meet the deadline while not sacrificing other issues (IE: sabre damage, newer, more interesting guns, etc.) I'd be for it. Otherwise, it's kind of a minor thing to me. Same here, although I think it would be worth spending the extra time on it if they can, rather than getting the game out a bit earlier to please LEC or something like that... Meh, I'll be buying the thing anyway so I suppose it makes little difference to me :)

I just so dearly hope they use something a *little* more up-to-date and inherently capable than Q3 as the engine for the next installment... Raven are good with Q3 tech, and good at adding bits to it, but it still has its limits.

Emon
05-19-2003, 11:19 AM
Just things to keep in mind:

1. James Monroe pointed out that the trailer is made from an old build of the game. And since it's an old build, I'm willing to bet LEC made it, and LEC isn't the greatest at showing the great parts of the game. Wait for a third party or second trailer (remember the awesome PCG British one for JO?).

2. The game still has a long ways to go. They are no where near a beta stage yet, and probably no where near alpha.

Wacky_Baccy
05-19-2003, 11:40 AM
Good points :)
(remember the awesome PCG British one for JO?)Yes - very well :D

I'd have been stuck if I weren't in the UK, cos there was no way that my 56k at the time would have handled 100megs of trailer... x.x

I really hope PCG get another awesome one this time around for JA :D

The LEC one will do me for now, though, since there are several nice things in it to keep my interest for a while... *goes off to watch it yet again* ^_^

Prime
05-19-2003, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by 12345678
as long as i live i will never understand the fanboy mentality. and for anyone who is confused as to the fanboy mentality, it is NOT simply sw fans wanting to make the games more like the movies. it is also people who defend the GAME reflexively.

and i will never understand this sort of thing:

a: "i dont like jk2"

b: "then dont play it or come to this board, and btw i dont like you"I can't speak for other people, but I don't mind when people state their dislikes about the game, as long as they are specific about what aspects they are talking about. There are many problems with the game, big and small, and they are certainly a good topic for discussion.

The problem is many people come to this board and just ramble on that the game "suXXors" because it won't let them be a "kewl jedi d00d" and complaining that the "lamerz" don't have "honour" because "WTF??!1!1! saber down = PEACE!1!!1". Because there have been so many of these type of complaints, I suppose many of the regulars just get cynical :)

On occasion someone will post that there is nothing good about this game and it is completely terrible. Then they go on about all the problems every time they play. In this case, isn't a legitimate question to ask why they still play the game?


Originally posted by 12345678
wtf? are you guys related to raven? do they pay your bills? does the existence of people who dont like what you like SOMEHOW DETRACT FROM YOUR GAMING EXPERIENCE?Just like you are free to state your dislikes about JO, people are free to defend it. This does not mean they are on the payroll of Raven. Should I be saying that you are getting payed by Bioware if you say KOTOR will be better than JO?

Originally posted by 12345678
it is ludicrous to have the animation speeds not match the run speeds (ie the foot sliding thing). they should match, period, end of story. if the animated run was too slow to match the actual speed they wanted for gameplay purposes, they shouldve changed it, NOT fudged it. its plain lame to have an animation of a slow jog, when the players senses clearly tell him hes moving at max human run speed.

and people who say "there are force powers and youre worried about run speed?" truly dont get it, and probably never will. id explain about "suspension of disbelief" and how it relates to storytelling, but something tells me id be wasting my time. See, this is good. You have a specific problem with JO and stated why you don't like. Personally, I disagree that it is a huge deal (my opinion, of course), but I respect your point of view :)

txa1265
05-19-2003, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by Prime
See, this is good. You have a specific problem with JO and stated why you don't like. Personally, I disagree that it is a huge deal (my opinion, of course), but I respect your point of view :)

Exactly - that is the type of thing that makes you think, and opens up thoughtful discussion. As opposed to "JKII Sux ... Naw it Rulez ... No way, it really sux, and ur a Raven patsy to say otherwise ... just go back to CS, troll" ... and so on ...

I finished watching the 25 minute HL2 video. Boy that looks nice. Not perfect, but very nice. Really good engine - I was impressed by the interactivity. We all know we won't be getting that level of graphics and physics in JA (we do all know that, don't we?), but what I have seen looks very nice.

There have been some that say - with regards to graphics/physics/whatever - 'why does Raven shoot for the sky instead of the stars'. Personally, I think it depends on how you define the stars and the sky. Unreal II shot for the stars with its' engine and didn't even hit the sky with the game. I believe that Raven is keeping well grounded with the engine, and therefore able to shoot for the stars in terms of the character builder, saber combat, mission structure and gameplay.

Mike

Solbe M'ko
05-19-2003, 04:22 PM
Well, I went back and looked at the trailer again. It may not be a real guage of the game, but it looks a lot worse than I remember from last time. Not to beat up on JA, but it just really looked simple. The saber dueling in JO was all about blocking, but in this trailer the jedi just kind of hit each other. The worst part was how it was so dark that you really couldn't get a feel for the environments. The one cool part that I missed the first time was when the Twi' Lek jumps on that guy she knocked down and gives him two sabers in the chest.

Prime
05-19-2003, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by Solbe M'ko
Well, I went back and looked at the trailer again. It may not be a real guage of the game, but it looks a lot worse than I remember from last time. Not to beat up on JA, but it just really looked simple. The saber dueling in JO was all about blocking, but in this trailer the jedi just kind of hit each other. The worst part was how it was so dark that you really couldn't get a feel for the environments. The one cool part that I missed the first time was when the Twi' Lek jumps on that guy she knocked down and gives him two sabers in the chest. I'd suggest going back and looking at the JO trailer as well. Then you might get an impression of how close these "previews" come to the actual gameplay. :)

Smood
05-19-2003, 06:52 PM
Some understand, and some do not.


My viewpoint is inevitable, it will be achieved when JK moves to a new engine. Whether Spider AL likes it or not.

BTW AL before you go off on a dictional tangent, Iím not referring to bowing, rpg elements, and all other components that make up a non-competitive fantasizing gamer, Iím talking about the realism in animation, collision and movement. It will be realized regardless once a new engine is utilized.

Jolts
05-19-2003, 07:00 PM
smood you should define what realism in animations, combat, collision and all other things you have been talking about.

Smood
05-19-2003, 07:00 PM
At the moment I would be satisfied if they just removed the push/pull and grip effects, and increased saber damage so a clean hit is a clean kill. As well as removing the SPARK effects, and orange balls that appear when someone is hit.

Smood
05-19-2003, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by Jolts
smood you should define what realism in animations, combat, collision and all other things you have been talking about.

As you wish. I'll give you a simple and clear definition.

When you swing the saber, there must never be a time where the saber goes so quick that it seems 'jerky' or seems as if there are frames missing. When I watch a movie duel, that fighting is fast (new duels) which is great, but I'am always able to see the saber, where it is moving. In jk this is USUALLY the case, but many a time the saber fighting is so (inhumanly) quick, that it looks strange.

Another really clear example is movement. Movement should be accelerated. I should not be able to move left to right so quickly, and slide. When I move or run, it should be as if I'am moving or running in real life. I should go left and start out quick and then speed to a run, then going in the opposite direction, I might come to a stop and then continue in the opposite direction.

The Count
05-19-2003, 07:54 PM
Who cares what Smood thinks? If he doesn't enjoy JA trailer or thinks the game will be crap because of ONE trailer (BTW you're really open minded, its only 60% done and you're writing off the game as crap) thats his loss, not ours. Why is there so much debate over what one insignificant gamer thinks?

I doubt Raven will miss his £30 for the game anyway when its already guaranteed to be a hit anyway just like Outcast was, or the community will miss his presence in JA MP, the point of this post is, his opinion is insignificant what matters is what you think of the trailer and your initial opinions of the game not Smood's worrying fear of the animations, the game has at the very least another three months in development so everything is subject to change.

BTW Raven aren't idiots, to establish or sustain a reputation as a renowned game developer they can't make the same mistake twice, I can't verify that they did but I would bet alot of money they thought long over the criticisms of multiplayer and animations and are sure to erradicate these faults that occured in JO.

Darth Groovy
05-19-2003, 08:15 PM
I am locking this thread due to name calling, and an inbox full of reports. Unless one of you can convince me that you will no longer act like children and refrain from insulting each other, this thread will remain closed for a very long time.