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Cloud Tiamat
05-19-2003, 04:01 PM
Are teams in MP still going to be a Rebel vs. Empire deal?

I mean, can't we have other factions for once? (and other team colors like green, gold, purple, etc.)

Solbe M'ko
05-19-2003, 04:13 PM
Dude, you touched on this before, methinks.

I'm more interested to know who the bad guy will be in single player. Remnant?

MattJedi
05-19-2003, 05:25 PM
I like rebel vs empire but the fact is they havnt really achieved that yet. If Raven decides to get rid of the blue and red and make it more movie like then it will be great(for example, if your empire you look like empire if your rebel you look like rebels, sith have sith clothes, jedi have jedi clothes, saber colors blue and green for rebel and red for empire). No teams need to be added, your trying say it should be more like a strategy game, ie: WAR3.

Prime
05-19-2003, 05:46 PM
Originally posted by Solbe M'ko
I'm more interested to know who the bad guy will be in single player. Remnant? Hopefully they will be involved to some extent, at least.

StormHammer
05-19-2003, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by Solbe M'ko
Dude, you touched on this before, methinks.

I'm more interested to know who the bad guy will be in single player. Remnant?

Well, looking at that trailer, there are Snowtroopers on Hoth. I reckon someone forgot to pick them up after the battle in ESB.

Personally I hope the 'Remnant' are not the key protagonists this time around. A couple of run-ins with Imperials is okay along the way...but I'd prefer to see some new bad guys (and gals) as a rising threat...

AFAIK, the new Siege mode in MP will probably have the Rebel v Imperial entanglements. That's not to say it's restricted to that...although it may be. They could allow you to pick other 'factions' as you call them, and even if they don't, I'm sure an inventive MOD crew could adapt it.

Luc Solar
05-19-2003, 07:01 PM
Dudes, haven't you seen the latest trailer?

If you watch closely, you'll see a take on Desann's old hideout with 3 eggs in the corner (near the rectangular rock).

Now...if you pause the trailer at that point and look real hard, you can see one of the eggs hatching... O.o! :eek:

TheBlueFlamingo
05-19-2003, 08:07 PM
ahh ****, that would be so damn lame if the baddies were Dessan eggs.

boinga1
05-19-2003, 09:00 PM
Rebel vs. Empire again?

Well... you wanted Republic versus Confederacy, perhaps? :D

Seriously, it seems there may be multiple factions in this game- perhaps the New Republic, Empire, and [insert third party name here].

DarkLord_44
05-19-2003, 09:12 PM
Originally posted by StormHammer

Personally I hope the 'Remnant' are not the key protagonists this time around. A couple of run-ins with Imperials is okay along the way...but I'd prefer to see some new bad guys (and gals) as a rising threat...

I am sorry I have to do this :( but I think you mean antagonists.

Cloud Tiamat
05-19-2003, 10:57 PM
Republic vs. Seperatists.........not a bad idea.

I was also thinking of groups like Black Sun, etc.

wassup
05-19-2003, 11:36 PM
Originally posted by TheBlueFlamingo
ahh ****, that would be so damn lame if the baddies were Dessan eggs.

OMFG. I can just imagine the story now...

"Desann is dead. However, his child, who hatched from an egg, has arisen again to reclaim his throne!"

:rolleyes:

StormHammer
05-20-2003, 12:48 AM
Originally posted by DarkLord_44
I am sorry I have to do this :( but I think you mean antagonists.

Yeah, you're absolutely right. I guess I'm having a bad day. :(

As for eggs...what? How far into the trailer are we talking here? I've gone through the trailer frame by frame and I don't see any eggs... :confused:

Spider AL
05-20-2003, 12:54 AM
Wait a minute, are you all saying that Desann was really a lay-dee? OMG.

She's hot.

Luc Solar
05-20-2003, 07:27 AM
No-no-no. You got it all wrong.

Desann didn't lay any eggs, that would be silly. The question you're all missing is: Who is the mother?

I ran into Kenn a few days ago and he gave me some inside info. I'll use a spoiler so that I won't spoil the surprise for those who don't want to find out yet.

Remember the Rancor in the trailer? Yup...you guessed it: it's a SHE!! :eek:

SettingShadow
05-20-2003, 07:38 AM
Rancor + Desann = eggs :eyeraise: ......... now thats a very intresting disturbed combination..


And exactly when in the trailer do you see those eggs??

Prime
05-20-2003, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by TheBlueFlamingo
ahh ****, that would be so damn lame if the baddies were Dessan eggs. If I get defeated by a couple of eggs, I'm never playing the game again :(

Uber_Saber
05-20-2003, 12:54 PM
Why are you obsessed with Desann being the father? And I have gone through the game frame-by frame and see no eggs. Can you give the time into the trailer that it occurs?

Wacky_Baccy
05-20-2003, 01:10 PM
*looks at Luc*

*giggle* They'll never find it... Don't tell them what time it's at :D

SettingShadow
05-20-2003, 02:59 PM
Ok.. now I've gone through the trailer frame by frame a couple of hundred times.. no wait, make that thousand times, and I can't see those damn eggs anywhere... are you playing with our weak minds (:p :D) that get frustrated just at the thought of having a Desann egg being the bad guy.. or do those eggs really exist? :p

Wacky_Baccy
05-20-2003, 04:34 PM
Oh, all right :p

You can see the 'eggs' at about 1:17 - I'm still not convinced myself, but that one Luc mention 'hatching' does look a bit foreboding, especially since I don't relish the idea of doing battle with Dessan-spawn :(

StormHammer
05-20-2003, 04:52 PM
Why not just give us a screenie of the scene in question? That would like...really help. ;) All I see at 1:17 is some flashy text fading across the screen...

SettingShadow
05-20-2003, 05:00 PM
Yeah me too.. Actually, I took time manually (the dam thing wouldn't show the time), so I wasn't sure I got it right, but it seems like I did.

Luc Solar
05-20-2003, 05:55 PM
You have to watch the trailer in full screen mode. Otherwise the Eggs won't show up. It's sort of a "The Ring" -kinda thing, you know.. ;)


Oh man I can't wait to get to fight the Egg-Triplets!! :bounce1: :bounce1: :bounce1:

Wacky_Baccy
05-20-2003, 06:37 PM
Really? They showed up okay on my screen at 2x... Guess I have a higher screeen res than you... :confused:

Anyway, I can't upload a screenie cos I've got nowhere to host it - sorry :(

Try the fullscreen thing as Luc said, and you ought to be able to see them :)

Solbe M'ko
05-20-2003, 08:49 PM
Hell, even I trust Lucasarts not to put in reptilian, jurassic park style enemies. What say we get back on topic, hmm?

Tesserax
05-21-2003, 02:38 AM
Why not move beyond the empire, and into the New Jedi Order. Using the Vong as an enemy would be quite fresh, from my perspective, especially if you had to work with the Imperials a few times.

StormHammer
05-21-2003, 09:47 AM
Originally posted by Tesserax
Why not move beyond the empire, and into the New Jedi Order. Using the Vong as an enemy would be quite fresh, from my perspective, especially if you had to work with the Imperials a few times.

Well, considering JA takes place just one year after the end of JO, I think it's safe to say there won't be Vong in the game.

Welcome to the forums, Tesserax. :) Here...have one of these...

http://www.storm.hammer.btinternet.co.uk/jedimedal2.gif

And enjoy your stay. ;)

Spider AL
05-21-2003, 01:19 PM
I'm afraid that the Vong would stillbe more of a cheap plot device than the remnant at this stage. Perhaps in a few games' time, they'd be preferable... but at the moment they're comparable to fifty Agent Smiths. I will explain:



The Wachowski Brothers' kennel - 6pm

"We need some new enemies for Neo."

"Okay, let's think."

/Brothers sift through their piles of cash for a few minutes

"I got it. You know Agent Smith was like, the big bad guy last time?"

"Yeah?"

"Let's multiply that threat geometrically. How does... A WHOLE LOT of Agent Smiths grab you?"

"Great."



***

Compare and contrast to:



SW EU Storyline-vetting evil quango boardroom- 6pm

"Order, gentlemen. We need a new enemy for the burgeoning new republic. Ideas?"

/Several executives light their cigars with rolled up fifty-dollar bills.

"Umm... I have an idea."

"Yes?"

"Just imagine, for a moment, just imagine a race of alien beings that's Horrifically. Ugly."

"Mmkay."

"And imagine a race of alien beings that's horrifically ugly and that is Addicted. To. Pain."

"Mmkay, liking it so far."

"And Genetic engineering."

"Ooh, that's good."

"And they're immune to the Force."

"Nice."

"And they can FLY."

"Uh-huh."

"And they have X-RAY VISION."

"Cool."

"And they're TWO-HUNDRED FEET TALL WITH INVULNERABLE HEADS!!!111"

"Great, let's go with that, set the story editors on it to tidy it up. Coffee anyone?"



***

Less innovation, more escalation! That's the ticket! Not that JO was innocent of that, by any means. Personally I'd rather see the Remnant again because I'm tired of invulnerable space-supermen and cortosis-armoured mecha-sith. I just want the darned stormies back again, with some superior AI. Make them harder to hit, don't make them able to survive many hits.

And I don't want to hear anything about the Wachowskis writing the whole trilogy at once, nor anything about individual EU authors having creative control, because those are all LIES.

Prime
05-21-2003, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by Spider AL
Personally I'd rather see the Remnant again because I'm tired of invulnerable space-supermen and cortosis-armoured mecha-sith. I just want the darned stormies back again, with some superior AI. Make them harder to hit, don't make them able to survive many hits. Exactly. I'm a sucker for the classics. Save the rest for Star Trek.

The rest of your post was brilliant, by the way :)

Solbe M'ko
05-21-2003, 08:08 PM
I don't like the idea of fighting the Remnant with jedi. The scarce few jedi that weren't killed by Vader would have bigger things to worry about and the new blood jedi wouldn't be trained well enough to leave the academy. I would accept seeing maybe Tavion come back or something, but I don't like the idea of the Remnant; it doesn't allow for dark jedi. That was one of the major flaws with JO's stroy, I think. The whole situation was too simple. Besides, the Remnant wasn't all that powerful after Endor/Coruscant (I havn't got a timeline handy, when DOES the battle for Coruscant take place?) so I think maybe a crime organization like Black Sun or the Hutts would be better. Still, I think the best way to make the story work in any event would be to:

A- Not have to take the whole enemy force on by yourself

B- Have a point, but not a galaxy saver story

C- Make references to political events and let the plot work on itself up. For example: "We don't want an uprising in the senate. Let's try to keep this quiet." "Yeah, let's send in the Jedi."


I mentioned the Vong idea before. It would be cool as a game in itself, but to try to incorporate the Vong into JO's gameplay style wouldn't work. YV's would require a Splinter Cell style sneak around, not a gung-ho shoot em up.

Tesserax
05-22-2003, 12:17 AM
OK, I hear you about the Vong being a cheap new enemy, but I feel that something needs to be added to the game, as (in the books, at least) the Remnant is losing power left and right. There is no way for them to be able to finance the kind of operation that Desann had running in JO, especially that "Whaledon" of a ship. (I can't believe I just typed that). I also think that putting in Black Sun or some other crime syndicate wouldn't be overly effective, as there is very little that such an organization could do to defeat a jedi. Bringing in a Dark Jedi Academy would be as cheap as bringing in the Vong. Perhaps something else, maybe some bad guys who have been artificially infused with the force.. oh wait, that's been done. Maybe someone builds these super killer droids, ... <grrrrr>. How about someone implicates the remnant in a scheme, when in fact they are completely innocent. At the same time, the New Republic is implicated in a similar scenario, so that eventually the two come to a head, and it's up to the jedi to defuse the situation. Kind of tacky, I know, but I'm not a professional writer!

Solbe M'ko
05-22-2003, 01:20 AM
How 'bout some of them "rogue imperial warlords" who have the last super star destroyers ever built? Well, ok, maybe not...

Why not have some kind of power struggle in the New Republic? There's plenty of folks wanting to stake their claim after the fall of the empire.

SettingShadow
05-22-2003, 06:25 AM
Why not sit back and wait till the game comes out? :D I mean, it's not like any of these ideas are gonna make it into the game, they got the plot ready (I think)..

Luc Solar
05-22-2003, 07:26 AM
I'd love the idea of fighting the good or semi-good guys.

Something like an old fellow jedi who guards the tomb of his former master or whatever "righteous" and you need to mess that up for a "greater good".

A scenario where you're both the good guy... you need to get that big bad ass gun and a fellow jedi sais "no you can not. I've sworn an oath to protect it from anyone, icluding you, my friend."

And then perhaps, if you're clever enough, you can avoid "falling to the dark side" by tricking the jedi in some way, pushing him out of your way, disarming him etc etc. Or just by kill him outright (that would probably make you feel like an evil bastard, which is kinda the whole point).

I don't find it cool to fight 24/7 something that's Pure Evil and only wants to destroy everything and everyone because...he is eevil. :rolleyes:

Mixed emotions. Sacrifice. Make a suicidal choice of not giving in to the dark side...a choice that seems just stupid but turns out okay in the end. Make bad guys have personlity.

How about a split in the Jedi Academy. One side wanting to be aggressive against a threat and the other side preferring a more peaceful approach (They got this in EU, right?). Good guys vs. good guys. Perhaps they'll join forces in the end, who knows. Perhaps you've chosen the aggressive side and killed the opposing JA members leaving you to face the real threat alone...maybe you have sided with some Hutt scumbags?

Give us options that *really* affect the outcome. Want to stand before the once divided, but now united Jedi Academy after a great battle where you all fought side by side and defeated the enemy together?

Want to gain power, destroy the foolish Jedi pacifists and take control of the remaining academy, establish connections with the underworld and use them to help you defeat the real enemy?

I don't know how they are going to put in the 2000 saber wielding opponents that the trailer showed without using the academy or some lame plot of Sith/mecha-factories with corthosis and silly crystals..

Oh well, we'll see.

(Btw - they won't use our plot suggestions because of legal reasons)

Burrie
05-22-2003, 07:28 AM
We can stil speculate, can't we? That's always the fun thing to do before we receive the full story.

Prime
05-22-2003, 01:06 PM
I still think that the Remnant can be a credible threat to the New Republic. As of the time of the Thrawn trilogy, the Empire still controlled about a quarter of the galaxy. That is a significant amount. This is a few years later, though :)

I'd like to have the Remnant, but have a clan or whatever of dark siders that you stumble onto when dealing with the Remnant. They are independant, but they are both a part of the story.

Like it or not, since this is a Star Wars game, people are going to want good fighting evil, and that evil needs to be recognizable from the movies. And in the case of Star Wars, that's stormtroopers :)

Solbe M'ko
05-22-2003, 07:01 PM
I like Solar's idea about the split in the Academy, but I would like to make a suggestion stemming from it.

The Jedi are evenly divided about their beliefs. One group feels that the restrictive, Old Republic style was the best, the other side feeling that Luke Skywalker's more open system is better. A few of the most strongly moved Jedi take action against each other. Luke, Kyle, and your character, being their favorite, try to calm down the two sides.

Just an idea.

Anyway, of course these aren't going into the game. The story is more likely than not already done. It's just fun to make up "what ifs" before you see what the developers decided to do.

Prime
05-23-2003, 12:46 AM
Originally posted by Solbe M'ko
The Jedi are evenly divided about their beliefs. One group feels that the restrictive, Old Republic style was the best, the other side feeling that Luke Skywalker's more open system is better. Interesting. But how much do teh Jedi of the new order know about the ways of the Old Republic?

Solbe M'ko
05-23-2003, 01:24 AM
:confused: I don't KNOW!

I didn't read it, but there's a book where Luke gets all these old data files from Chu'Unthor on Dathomir, or something, and he starts the praxeum. (I read that out of the Guide to Vehicles)

Whatever the case, new enemies would be a good addition, but not if they are really poorly thought out like Desann was. I mean, come on! A dinosaur?

Cloud Tiamat
05-23-2003, 02:22 AM
What was poorly thought out? Te fact he's an anthropomorphic dinosaur?

Spider AL
05-23-2003, 02:01 PM
The fact that he was "Dark Barney" was poorly thought out. I think a different colour scheme for his carapace would have suggested less, a well-known fluffy dino.

Plus they didn't make him look evil enough. Not enough teeth. Not long nor sharp enough. No glowing eyes. No skeletal carapace. He should have looked scary. Warped.

Making it palatable for the kiddies? That's tantamount to making Greedo fire first in the SE. Crap, in other words.

Prime
05-23-2003, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by Spider AL
Making it palatable for the kiddies? That's tantamount to making Greedo fire first in the SE. Crap, in other words. Han fired first, baby! I don't want to hear otherwise! :)

Luc Solar
05-24-2003, 06:36 AM
Han is bad ass! No way he'd wait for some green dude to have a go first. :cool:

Spider AL
05-24-2003, 12:58 PM
People forget that Lucas had less creative input into the finished product that was the original trilogy than he has now, into the prequels. Also, he's old and he's obviously lost any talent he may or may not have possessed in the past.

Frankly he built a nice house in the late 70's and 80's, but he's just tearing it down now, and erecting an overpriced toy shop where it once stood. Let's hope that JA stays with the OT canon as much as possible.

Solbe M'ko
05-24-2003, 03:58 PM
Well, I don't think that Lucas really had as much impact as we think. He wrote the story, but he didn't do much of the visual design stuff, which was really the highlight of SW. I mean, George wasn't over at ILM taping little models fly around. I'm not sure, but I doubt if he did very much of the clothing and so on. He just sort of made it all come together, which is the directors job, I guess.

Spider AL
05-24-2003, 04:43 PM
Exactly, Solbe. With regards to ANH, Lucas had minimal creative input, as his ideas at that time were nebulous at best. It's my contention that a lot of people must have pitched in and cleaned up his whole concept, which was painfully feeble, judging by early script drafts. Not least Harrison Ford, who both prevented the character of Han from wearing a Ming-The-Merciless pink collar, and was the man to invent the flight deck proceedures for the falcon. Lucas had no idea what any doohickie on the Falcon set was supposed to be used for. Hardly a Tolkien of the stars, as he purports to be these days.

He didn't even screen-write nor direct the best ever SW film, ESB. With RotJ you can see him getting more and more influence over the whole project, with the addition of lovely, lovely Ewoks. Finally, we have the prequels. And they are so very sad. It's all so sad.

Never mind though. One day the original theatrical versions of the Original Trilogy will be available once more. No man lives forever. ;)

StormHammer
05-24-2003, 05:12 PM
*large hand descends from the heavens to pick up thread and place it back on track*

Originally posted by Spider AL
The fact that he was "Dark Barney" was poorly thought out. I think a different colour scheme for his carapace would have suggested less, a well-known fluffy dino.

Plus they didn't make him look evil enough. Not enough teeth. Not long nor sharp enough. No glowing eyes. No skeletal carapace. He should have looked scary. Warped.

I have to agree with you. Desann was pretty ill-conceived, IMHO. A humanoid with a tyrannosaur head didn't look frightening, and adding the purple colour...well, it attracted all of the Barney comments. :(

I hope Raven have learned from that mistake, and made the 'bad guy' a lot more interesting, in terms of concept and background.

In my view, it doesn't even have to be humanoid...there's plenty of scope for multi-limbed and tentacular creatures in the Star Wars galaxy.

I still wouldn't mind seeing a four-armed boss with four lightsabers...that would be a real headache. :D

Luc Solar
05-24-2003, 05:44 PM
Hey...come on...the Eggs. Kenn told me it's gonna be the eggs.. :( ;)

Aaah, whatever.

But I really hope that they'll stir up some emotions this time. Difficult choices, doing something you wouldn't want to do, but must do to achieve a greater good. Don't make it too simple, morally.

Killing the "bad guy" because he is evil 'n stuff is alright, but not enough to make the game great.

StormHammer
05-24-2003, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by Luc Solar
Hey...come on...the Eggs. Kenn told me it's gonna be the eggs.. :( ;)

Aaah, whatever.

Eggs! Eggs! :swear:

*runs off to find a hammer, a bowl and an egg-whisk*

Ah, that's better. Omellettes! :p

But I really hope that they'll stir up some emotions this time. Difficult choices, doing something you wouldn't want to do, but must do to achieve a greater good. Don't make it too simple, morally.

I totally agree. Just having a big, bad, hard Uber-Boss at the end of a game doesn't make the whole experience worthwhile. There has to be a very good context for why someone is 'evil'...and I'd much prefer to see a move away from clean-cut black-and-white Good vs Evil types scenarios into more grey territory, where you start to question whether you're actually doing the right thing, and have to make a decision one way or the other. That's why I love the ending to Deus Ex...it lets you decide how things will end. :thumbsup:

Solbe M'ko
05-24-2003, 11:43 PM
Spider Al: Let's not forget that wonderful title: "Star Wars: The Adventures of Luke Starkiller".

StormHammer: I STRONGLY agree that there should be more non-humanoid characters, especially in the games. In a movie, it would be expensive to make a big puppet with eight legs, but in a game, it's just as much trouble to make 2 as it is to make 200. I would LOVE to see a Taozin in JA.

Kurgan
05-25-2003, 07:44 AM
Frankly, I don't see what's so wrong with the way Desann looked.

Is it OKAY for EU authors to create new aliens? Yes? No?

Anyway, if you watch the original Star Wars, and even the later movies you'll see PLENTY of "aliens" who are essentially a human with an odd skin color and an animal head grafted on. It's still more than what we see in another popular science fiction franchise *cough*trek*cough* for "alieny" appearances.

Admiral Ackbar? The Cantina aliens? 'Nuff said.

If he was in the movies, you all would be overjoyed about how accurate and faithful to the movies he was. Sure he looked goofy, but he did bad things, and he was a tough cookie in battle (most of the time anyway). In short, everything you need in a videogame villian... ; )


As to the whole good vs. evil thing, it's just a game. Even the good guys in games do things most people would consider bad (unless it was a war, which it happens to be) and you get away with more. The fact that you'll be making the choice between Dark and Lightside should make the morality more ambigious.

Like if you're a bad guy, you might still be fighting the bad guys, but for the wrong reasons? Or maybe you do bad things, with the hope that good will come out of it (end justifies the means) or maybe you'll just flat out join them? Or maybe you're more evil than your foes! The possibilities are endless... I hope they explore this as much as possible.

Spider AL
05-25-2003, 08:19 AM
Frankly, I don't see what's so wrong with the way Desann looked.Well, there isn't anything inherently wrong in making the villain an oversized humanoid with a purple dinosaur's head. It's just that, when the camera finally panned upwards to reveal the face of Kyle Katarn's new nemesis, I was closer to laughing than I was to grimacing in concern for my character's safety, or nodding happily in appreciation of the character designers' skill. That's just me, though.

That, and one expected him to suddenly burst into a deep-voiced rendition of "the friendship song".

Jerec was good. He had... that je ne c'est quoi. That same indefinable something that Vader had. Evil. Panache. He was formidable.

The fact that you'll be making the choice between Dark and Lightside should make the morality more ambigious.Dunno about that too much... In the games prior to JO, if one killed a civilian, one was either punished for it or turned progressively towards the Dark Side. Anything but self-defence was Dark, in other words.

I liked the lack of ambiguity in JK. One was either a good guy or a bad guy, and one had to make an unequivocal choice to that effect. It made one feel all twinkley and moral. Presuming that like me, one always chose the Light Side, that is.

I hope they replicate that in JA...

MattJedi
05-27-2003, 01:03 PM
What might be really cool is if a group of jedi from the acedemy turned to the dark side, or maybe just one, somethig like that.

StormHammer
05-27-2003, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by MattJedi
What might be really cool is if a group of jedi from the acedemy turned to the dark side, or maybe just one, somethig like that.

Well, it happened in the novels, so I don't see why not. Even if they become the apprentices of some other Dark Jedi...so you have to fight people that you got to know earlier on. I love the whole morality deal...

Wudan
05-27-2003, 05:31 PM
That sounds good to me!