OJP (Open Jedi Project)
I'm bumping the OJP decision over here since OJP is a JKA project.
The original thread can be found here.
To continue the discussion, I'm going to suggest that we use SourceForge for our work. I've already seen another JK2 mod on their and cleared it with Raven. All we have to do is get an account.
In addition, I'm going to suggest that we allow my Mouse Sabering work to be in OJP (as a cvar of course).
Ok, bad news. I checked the license agreement stuff for sourceforge and I'm afraid that we can't really use them for our hosting needs. They have a requirement that we can't restrict commerical use of our code AND can't restrict the "free redistrobution" of such code. This means we wouldn't have control to restrict smacktards and LEC from using our code without permission. That's not really cool.
Any other suggestions for possible hosts for CVS system for the project?
Ok, good news. I beleive I've found a good CVS repository at www.freepository.com and it has some additional nice features that will help the cause.
Namely, we have to give out a password to join the project AND the project admins have complete control over who has what read/write privs.
Hopefully that will encourage more people to get involved with the project since we seem to have a lot of people that are unsure of our ability to protect our code from the code whores/script kiddies.
As for the command stucture, I think we should give each contributer an vote(s) on the OJP 'Council' (possibly based on contributions made) and let the public (and non-contributers) just provide input. This will mean that contributers have the final say.
I suggest that we approve code/general feature improvements on a majority vote and gameplay improvements on a super majority vote.
In addition, I think we need to lay down some rules for submission. My primary concern is the distrubing trend in the JK2 community of people "withdrawing" their work midway thru a project. For a project such as OJP to success, I don't think we can really tolerate that. If someone "removes" a feature, it could have a domino effect on the project.
While we will respect the rights of individuals to their work, I suggest that we have a submission disclaimer that states that after your work has been submitted, there will be no unsubmitting it. Meaning that the group can continue to use your work (with full credit of course) even if you withdraw from the group.
What do you guys think? Too restrictive or only reasonable?
I agree with all the points you have made above - including the clause about not being able to withdraw previously contributed work - makes sense.
The respoitory site you have linked to also looks like a good choice.
I'd just like to clarify what the overall aim of the OJP is though. You probably feel that you have explained it well enough - and if I've not got it, I apologise. I did read back over the old thread, but the different things being said by various people have confused me a little.
Overall, it seems the aim of the OJP is to provide a standard 'library' of bug fixes / improvements etc. That's fine - I get that. And I see the need for these bug fixes / improvements to be regulated and controlled.
Now - from what I've read - the idea is that mods are built 'on top of' OJP - i.e. using the OJP code as a base. If this is the case - then woohoo - this is great!
...but if this is the case, we really do need some solid rules in place to 'police' this. It may seem nit-piky to do so, but this will be ESSENSIAL if this is going to work. Not trying to say any rules I say have to be used, just saying that definete, specific rules HAVE to be drawn up and known by all.
And yes, it is going to get tough at times, and disagreements are going to take place - this is inevitable. But I believe it will be REALLY benificial to all JA mods in the long run.
In fact, OJP is starting to sound a LOT like an idea I put forward quite a while back. I don't think it was very practical at the time I suggested it. But now that we effectively have a clean slate, I think it's a lot more feasible.
I guess the two most important things to make sure of is:
1. Credit needs to be officially given where it is due.
2. Additions to OJP 'material' will need to be regulated by the OJP members.
I think one thing which would help in this regard is a big, phat:
Official OJP webiste
All mods using OJP code would need to link to this site.
This would list all kinds of details - to make VERY certain that credit is given where credit is due. The website would list all contributors to the OJP project. Clicking on the name would give you a full rundown on the features this person has contributed and which mods they are used in.
(Incidently, it would also list anybody who has been deemed to be abusing the OJP.)
I would also suggest the following 'rules' to any mods who make use of the OJP system. (Some of these will have already been mentioned, but I'll include them again anyway just for clarity).
1. To use OJP code, you must contribute something 'of worth' to the project.
Of course, 'of worth' is a relative term, but as has been stated, we would need some way of deciding these things between ourselves. I would suggest a small number of leaders who hopefully can deal with most stuff, but if the leaders do anything which the majority of contributors don't agree with, their desisions can be over-ruled by majority vote.
(THe only reason I don't think ALL desisions should be made by majority vote is that:
a. It would be really hard to try and organise so many votes on (hopefully - if OJP is a success) such a regular basis.
b. I have a sneaky suspicion a LOT of the contributors would not want to get too involved in the administritive side of things anyway, and could end up actually discouraging people to bother contributing in the first place)
2. If contributing features clash in some way, they need to be standardised
For example, two people might contribute class systems. It wouldn't be desirable or practical to have both systems included into the OJP, so some sort of compromise would need to be reached, possible involving cvar-ing various parts of both systems.
Again, it would be up to the leaders (with power to over-rule from all contributers) as to how this is done.
3. Mods using features from the OJP cannot 'significantly' alter the used features.
This basically means in ways which the original authors disapprove of. If they REALLY want to make some alteration to the feature, they discuss it with not only the original mod maker, but with the OJP as a whole, and assuming it is approved, it not only becomes an extra option for their mod, but it must become part of the OJP code. (i.e. avaliable to all mods)
4. Mods made from OJP code must clearly state (somewhere) that they are OJP mods
Ideally, I think we should have some kind of official logo which needs to be displayed prominantly on any official websites, menu's etc. (Think the Intel logo on PC cases, adverts etc.)
We may also want to enforce the listing of every single feature used from the OJP base and give individual credit to each person for that feature directly in the readme's etc. However, tHis could become a bit of a logistical nightmare. Also, I don't think we could trust individual mod makers to go to the effort of getting all the details right. So even if this isn't done in all cases, all this info is on the OJP site which they MUST link to from their mod - that's simple enough to do! (Readme, official sites etc.)
5. Any mod built from the OJP must be 'substantially' different from other OJP mods
This rule is to combat so-called copy-cat mods. In practice, this means that if your mod does nothing more than take a few of the OJP features without doing much else, then you have not done enough to make your mod UNIQUE.
What makes a mod unique? Not just features, but game rules. game design. etc. etc.
Now, of course this is where some disagreements could crop in. But this is always a posssibility no matter how far we go with this, so I say we may as well go all the way... (in for a penny, in for a pound - as my Dad likes to say! ;) )
Yes, these rules are kind of restrictive. They have to be there to make sure that the OJP works like it needs to. Will this mean that no-one will bother contributing? I really don't think so - because at the end of the day there are so many plusses to being involved in the OJP, that it would be worth putting up with the rules.
In fact, the only people I see who would be too upset to deal with it are people who can't keep their ego's in check. And as far as I'm concerned, these are exactly the kind of people we DON'T want in this project.
OK - so now I'm going to use a couple of case examples from JKII and see how they work out with the system I've just described above.
I'm aware that using personal examples might end up backfiring on me, but it's just the easiest way to explain the practical context of the rules I've just listed.
Case 1 - ProMod
Undeniably, the biggest and most unique feature in ProMod was the non-random, competitive saber combat system. Unfortunately, this mod was never as popular as it could have been - because a lot of players were interested in what could be described as 'bells and whistles'.
Sure, if they could have both, then great, but poor Artifex only had so much time as a modder to add all this stuff (and we are all in the same boat there...).
So, let's imagine that Artifex makes ProMod 2 for JA. He adds his main features to the OJP. Now, sure - people are free to take his combat system in their mods. But, he can also take some of the 'bells and whistles' features and incorporate them into his. i.e. everybody ends up with better mods.
IMPORTANT POINT - these other mods aren't going to be ProMod rip-offs because for them to qualify to base themselves off OJP code, they must have been deemed to be significantly different to other already existing (or currently developing) OJP mods.
However, it is possible that Artifex may not need to work on a specific mod.
After contributing stuff such as the Combat System to the OJP, Artifex may find many mods that use his systems in ways that are very pleasing to him. He may then decide that he really doesn't need to do extra work on ProMod, since these other mod(s) essentially do what he was going to do anyway.
However, the only reason he would do this is if he was satisfied he was getting sufficient credit for his work where it was being used. Would he get proper credit? YES - it's a rule of the OJP. It's clearly mentioned on the OJP webiste. In fact, go and click on Artifex's name, and you could potentially find a whole slew of great mods which make use of the official Artifex combat system. (A nice touch might be to allow each contributor to recommend other mods where their systems, in their opinions, were used well.)
Basically, I'm trying to portray a concept where contributors may not actually have their own mods, but instead add great technical features to the OJP which end up benefiting and enriching all mods WITHOUT a feeling of over-competitiveness or resentment.
...to further emphasise this point, let's imagine a senario where someone only adds one feature (the feature has to be 'significant', but still only one) and then uses - let's say - 10 other features from the OJP to make their mod.
Now to me, this is perfectly 'legal' -assuming of course the whole mod concept is significantly different (so they also get credit for game design - assuming the game is good of course!), but at the end of the day the mod is more an OJP mod than theirs. i.e. they can't really call it THEIR mod in the traditional sense. (After all, they only contributed 1 feature of theirs against 10 others from the OJP.)
If they have given proper credit to the OJP and listed only their one feature as theirs, then - job done. However, if the OJP feels the particular mod maker hasn't done a good enough job of making sure people know they did not write the whole mod themselves (i.e. people going on forums and raving about what a great job so-and-so did on ALL aspects of the mod), then the OJP needs to take action etc.
Personally, I think this open approach will lead to some great mods. (This comes from my belief that great game designers are not nessesarily the greatest coders...). And as long as credit is not stolen, there is no harm, and no foul.
(An alternative to this is only allowing people to use as many OJP features as you contribute. i.e. you add one, you get to use one. Of course this means you have to start weighting contributions etc. I would still prefer to do things how I have described above...)
Case 2 - Movie Battles
I'll use my own JKII mod as an example as well, since I'm familiar with it ;)
Also, I can firmly state the mod makers motives with accuracy!
I am very interested in making Movie Battles 2.0. However, what drove me away from JKII modding was:
a. Not having the time needed to add ALL the features I wanted in the mod.
b. THe feeling that I was constantly competing with other mods. Personally, it just drove me up the wall.
OK, so, I start Movie Battles 2.0 by contributing my main features to the OJP - assuming they are accepted. These would be LMS system, team and class model-forcing etc.
I would like to think my mod would not be just a copy-cat of other mods. To list just one point, I'm not a believer in lots of cvars, so in my mod lots would be locked down. (For starters, the LMS system would not be optional...)
Ok, now I get to use other OJP features which would enhance my mod - thus saving me a hell of a lot of time and effort. I haven't STOLEN them, I have earned them by contributing to the OJP - and I must publicly admit they are not my features anyway!
(In fact thinking of it as just 'my' mod would be a mis-conception. Once you use OJP features, you are effecively working on an OJP mod - i.e. it's not solely your own anymore. If this is too bitter for you, then you won't have joined OJP in the first place...)
At the same time, other mod makers can go ahead and use - for example - my LMS system in their mods. This is fine by me. I get credit when it's used, and I know that no-one can use my features to make a copy-cat of my mod. (It's in the rules).
Sorry about the long post, but I felt it was nessesary to get across what I'm proposing.
WHat do you all think? The rules may seem long-winded, but their not really. The bottom line is 'We all use each-others stuff in a fair way'. The rules are only to draw border lines around the technicalities...
Thanks for joining the conversation Phunk. I was starting to sound like a loony without other people posting. People keep talking to me privately instead of on the boards. :P
I suggest that we meet in the middle on this and allow people (who aren't on our blacklist) to view the code (and keep track of that). However, to USE the code in a publically released mod, you have to follow OJP rules and contribute any desireable features into OJP. It's concievable that there could be a mod that was unique, significantly different, and DOESN'T have anything that could be contributed to OJP.
Due to way freepository works, you need a password to join a "public" project. As such, we could keep detailed records of who accessed the code and why.
2. If contributing features clash in some way, they need to be standardised
3. Mods using features from the OJP cannot 'significantly' alter the used features.
Mmm, you're going to have to explain the purpose of this one to me. I can understand requiring people to contribute bug fixes but I'm not really clear what you're getting at with this one.
In addition, any features that come from OJP should be specifically credited as such in the mod AND IN ANY PUBLIC RELATION MATERIALS (unless you specifically created that feature). This will prevent a situation where someone with a popular mod will get "the credit" for features that he didn't make (JediMod <-> OmniMod/JediMod++/JediPlus)
5. Any mod built from the OJP must be 'substantially' different from other OJP mods
I'm going to suggest some additional rules:
1. Before releasing a OJP mod version publically, you need to clear your mod with the OJP leadership.
This is to ensure that your mod is in compliance with OJP rules. This needs to be as convenent as possible for modders so we don't scare people off with this requirement.
2. OJP-based mods must include the required OJP files.
The required files would include a OJP credits text file and a OJP readme that includes the rules, the blacklist, and a introduction of the project.
I'm going to start working on those files now.
Hey - thx for listening to my ideas Razor - this is great :)
To be honest, if it wasn't for the possibility of OJP, I probably wouldn't even be considering modding for JA...
I think you have a good point. Even just from a practical context - if contributors can't see the code until they have contributed, that would mean that members of the OJP would have to merge in new code! Or we could have some kind of system where the appplicants show us the working feature(s) before we give them access to the OJP...
...but this produces extra work and hassle - so I agree, let's principly give anybody access to the source.
And as you say, if we give out permissions, we can avoid people who are known to be a problem. (Although we must be fair about this - we'd have to be careful about denying someone access I think).
The only thing that worries me a bit is the idea that people could quite easily take OJP code, slightly change it to make it look like it was original work (or at least claim any similarities are co-incidence) and essentially claim it for their own.
Sure, we would have a record of all people who have accessed the OJP, but people can always use more then one persona on the internet can't they... At least forcing people to contribute first makes this much harder to happen.
But I guess we'll see how it goes...
Basically, I was thinking along these lines:
'If you have used a feature from the OJP and improved on it, you should put those improvements back into the OJP, since that is where you got it from in the first place...'
But maybe this isn't nessesary thinking about it - and could actually stifle progress. Maybe it would be better if we forget that one!
So I think people should be able to pitch their mod as early as possible. And then assuming they don't deviate massively by the end of development (or any deviation doesn't cause it to become a copy-cat mod), then any changes are acceptable.
And we'd need to be quite organised about this. If we appprove mod X, but then find out that mod Y is starting to look a lot like mod X a couple of months down the line, we may need to take steps etc.
I'm willing to perform any admin duties that need performing - I'd really like to see this get off the ground.
...OK - so who's up for webbie duty? :)
About the website:
There are always quite a few modding sites that spring up for a game. I'd say the OJP site is basically a special type of modding site. i.e. we don't need to restrict it to just OJP business. We could have all kinds on there - mod reviews, forums etc. etc.
Basically, since your garuanteed visitation by a hell of a lot of coders, I could easiely see the OJP site becoming the central site for JA modding. I'm sure that we could find some web guy who'd be interested in working on such a potentially high profile site...
...how about the nice people at jediknight.net? :)
I just think a big, central, well presented website is VERY important to make sure that the 'credit where credit is due' requirement is met:
Player 1: 'Isn't feature X cool? 'Modder Y' did a great job on that eh?'
Player 2: 'Err, no. Actually it was 'Modder Z' who made that feature. It just got included in Modder Ys mod'
Player 1: 'That's not what I heard...'
Player 2: 'Well, I can prove it to you'
Player 2 gives Player 1 a link to the OJP site where it says - officially - who was responsible for what. Argument over. No ambiguity.
Of course, I can't talk about the countermeasures on a open channel like this. :)
While you're at it, ask them if they could host a forum here for the project. This thing is going to be too big for a single thread soon.
Emon's checking out server options.
Things are looking up. I've gotten multiple people either interested or at least willing to contribute to the project. :)
I've got a draft of the readme and rules set up. Want me to post it so you can work it over?
As for OJP moderators, it looks like me, you, and Emon are probably going to be the starting moderators.
Anyway, that's all for today. Sorry if I'm hard to understand. I'm tired.
Great stuff Razor - I'm in :)
I'll talk to some people and see what I can do about getting a site and forums up...
And sure - post up an initial rules draft when you are ready...
1. Rules Scare People. I'm basing it off of the fact that I'm scared by rules.
2. Maybe just 2 rules - proper credits of the latest version of OJPsource available at the OJP site included with your mod, and no mods released using OJP without contributing to OJP. I don't think OJP's 'grand vizier' or whatever needs to sniff and hug each OJP released mod. I think the key focus should be on encouraged contribution.
3. Last, a source recommendation - each new added feature has a run down and sig comments "//Wudan - " with info - I'd think it extra special if the bulk of new features were in extra source files, as opposed to cluttering up existing source files. I understand that a certain degree of integration is necessary, but it should be kept to a minimum, so many features can be added without the source getting uber confusing.
I know what your saying man, but rules aren't here to scare people - they are here to make it very clear what were doing.
To just say 'Make it fair' is just not specific enough. One person's definition of fair is not another persons. And we can't use everyone's definition at once, so we have to come up with a common set of rules.
A good example of this are the rules which govern these forums. There are actually quite extensive rules governing what you can and can't post here. And there are eager admins on the prowl ready to enforce these rules...!
Is this a bad thing? Most people certainly aren't 'scared' by these rules - they accept them as part and parcel of posting on a forum.
...for my part, I don't actually read every single word of the rules of these forums. (Yes, I am BAD!) I get the basic jist though - don't be a jerk!
But they can't just say 'Don't be a jerk!' in the forum rules! They have to be MUCH more specific than that. They have to be able to refer to a specific section of the rules which covers that particular part of 'jerk-like' behaviour for specific cases...
Same with OJP. The rules aren't something to be used like a whip whenever you feel like being vindictive. It just makes it perfectly clear what were doing.
It may seem rules will stifle the open nature of things. But really, I think the opposite will happen. A firm set of fair and agreed rules will allow many people to contribute freely and not be worried about how their work could be (potentially) exploited.
As far as the specific issues you've raised about the rules, sounds like your biggest beef is with this one:
Modder X comes along, takes all the features, adds a few new emotes and calls it 'X's super mod'. (Prefectly legal without the above rule)
Modder Y comes along, takes all the same features, adds a few new saber colours and calls it 'Y's super-duper mod' (Perfectly legal without the above rule)
Modder Z comes along, takes all the features, changes some #defines for weapon bullet speeds and calls it 'Z's woppie-de-doo mod'. (Prefectly legal without the above rule)
...do you see this as an acceptable situation? This is not a problem of giving credit where it is due (we'll assume they are following all the other rules), the problem is we now have 3 OJP mods which are so similar, I would have no problem with saying that they dont' really deserve to be seperate mods. The new emotes, the new saber colours and the new weapon speeds should be cvars in the same mod.
I think this makes sense to most people, and the above example is a little OTT to illustrate the point, but this is exactly what the rule is meant to combat. I actually think most people will take this as a given using common sense - so hopefully we would rarely even need to enforce it - but it needs to be there non-the-less.
..and remember, ALL contributors have a say in this...
I think I need to clarify something here - the new emotes, new saber colours and new bullet speeds wouldn't be the contributions that got X, Y and Z membership in the first place. (Or at least i seriously doubt these would count as good enough - individually at least. The ability to add saber colours would count though I guess...)
X, Y and Z have already contributed 'satisfactory' features to the OJP before, which means they get to release mods which take advantage of OJP source.
Now, you can argue that X, Y and Z, being decent coders to get in in the first place - would not try and make such mods. They would have no problem adding these minor things as cvars into the main OJP.
In which case, great! This makes it even LESS likely we would ever need to enforce the rule. But the above situation is still potentially possible, which means we still need the rule defined...
I agree with Phunk on this. While rules can scary people off, we need to have rules in place to make it clear what is and isn't acceptable.
The people's view of what is acceptable varies wildly. For example, I actually talked to the person known as BOFH about this. He seems to be under the impression that any modding work is automatically the property of LEC after release (due to the crappy EULA) and therefore giving credit to other modders is a matter of personal opinion. This means that if you get on his bad side, he thinks it's "ok" to remove any "credit" from his derivative mod.
Everyone that is working on OJP disagrees with this rational and have to make rules that make this very clear.
For those comments and for a varity of other reasons, I've already put him on the OJP Blacklist.
First Draft OJP Rules
OJP Rules Handbook
Table of Contents
0001 - What's New?
0002 - Introduction
0003 - Decision Making
0004 - Getting Access
0005 - Usage
0006 - Smacktard Open License
0007 - The Blacklist
0001 - What's New?
The rules handbook is born!
0002 - Introduction
OJP is here for the community. Our primary goal is to provide a feature platform for JKA mods that insures that every creator is given full and proper credit for our work.
We operate on a "semi-open" source system. We try to allow as many people as possible to access our work and contribute. However, since there are a lot of people that can't play nicely or respect the works of others, we have some strict rules to keep everything fun and helpful for everyone.
We're looking for, and accept, interesting and well done features that the modding community in general would be interested in. Work must be done in a clear, understandable manner and documented to a reasonable degree.
The only things we can't accept are pure maps and models. They take up too much space and would make it difficult for our dial up users to easily and quickly download project files. However, we take especially well done graphically work (like a far superior saber blade effect graphic) or models that have technical uses (like an improved hit collision player model). If you are unsure on whither your work is acceptable or not, just ask one of the moderators.
To prevent major complications, we can't allow anyone to "desubmit" work after it has been integrated into the project. Otherwise, we'd have to spend insane amounts of time removing features that disgruntled contributors want removed. This is a requirement for ALL submissions so please keep that in mind before submitting.
This doesn't mean that you surrender your rights to your work. We consider your work to BE your work. We will continue to respect your work whither you continue to be a part of the project or not. We will make every effort to protect your work from smacktards and illegal commercial exploitation.
0003 - Decision Making
While we do accept input from the community, we can't allow the community to out voice the contributors. As such, OJP is run by a group of moderators that volunteer their time for the cause. Since most people don't want to be involved in the day-to-day running of the project, the moderators regularly vote on and handle issues. A simple majority rules here.
If there is something that the project contributors don't agree with, they can overrule the moderators by a supermajority vote.
0004 - Getting Access
To keep out the undesirables and to protect our work, we require everyone to ask for access to the OJP source code. To get access, simply send an email with the following information to one of the moderators:
- Any aliases/nicks/handles you use.
- Reason for wanting to access the code
- Previous modding works
- Features you might contribute to the project
Please be honest as possible. If we find out that you intentionally lied to get access, we will ban you.
0005 - Usage
You are allowed to:
- Analysis OJP works to learn how things operate.
- Use our code in your mod IF you follow the SOL (Smacktard Open
You are NOT allowed to:
- Distribute OJP source works.
- Financially profit from OJP source works in ANY way.
- Cut and paste code without following the SOL.
We are pretty strict about the usage of our source work to create new works. For anything that is released publicly, you have to comply with the SOL (Smacktard Open License) or clear it with OJP moderators.
0006 - Smacktard Open License
To correctly use OJP works or derivatives you MUST do the following:
- Get your work approved by to one of the moderators BEFORE you release it. Please email ahead before you send large files thru email. Thank you.
- Include the two main OJP files with your work. This means this file (OJP_rules.txt) and the readme (OJP_readme.txt)
- Make it clear that your work is OJP based work in and OUTSIDE the mod. Talking about an OJP feature in a forum as if you created it is unacceptable.
- Submit any community useable features to the project. OJP's success depends on users taking AND giving to the project.
- Any bug fixes or improvements to OJP code should be submitted back to the project.
- Your mod MUST be significantly unique to be releasable. Simply adding a couple of cvars and emots IS NOT ALLOWED. If you have a project that is very similar to another project, try cooperating with that project.
- Thou Shall Not Take OJP's Name in Vain. Meaning, for the love of god, don't name your mod something like OJP+++ or OJP v2.0. WE WILL hurt you.
If you don't follow these guidelines, we may be forced to take actions to prevent abuses of our works. These actions might include:
- Getting your work removed from download sites.
- Removing your submission privileges.
- Banning you from the project and putting you on the Blacklist.
- Legal Action.
We suggest to you keep in constant communication with OJP to allow everyone to coordinate their projects. We don't want you to waste months of hard work to find out that your mod is exactly like ____'s mod.
0007 - The Blacklist
All of the following individuals have violated one or more of the OJP rules (or simply cheesed us off) and are not allowed to use or view the OJP source code/materials. Intentionally giving OJP source code/materials to these individuals will result in you being added to the blacklist.
BOFH/Spectrum - Banned for not giving proper credit to coders in the community, changing handles to avoid retribution, abusing file master privileges to hype own mod, and using backstabbing tactics to acquire modding material.
The doc looks good Razor. It covers everything and it makes things very clear - good job!
The only critisism I have is that some parts could be worded a little less aggressively - although in most cases it's OK.
But this bit I think should be taken out:
Sure - their may be a situation where we need to ban somebody if nessesary, but I'd like to think this would be the last course of action - after trying to discuss any problems and seeing if there are other ways we could sort it out first.
...and we certainly couldn't ban somebody just because we didnt' like them!
But apart from that, it's all good.
Noted, feel free to make changes and post them or email them to me.
I don't really have any input to give as to how this whole thing works (right now anway).... but i think it's a great idea. I'd love to contribute to this. Razor suggested i dontate my effects work to it, so i'll do that. I'd also like to work on material specific effects and entity collision sounds and stuff like that... mostly astetic related. Most people would probably think my gameplay and interface ideas are a bit extreme... so i don't know about those. ;)
Well - this is the good thing about the OJP Scarlett.
If you've contributed some good and worthwhile stuff to the OJP, then you get to become a member who can potentially 'produce' an OJP mod.
(I think the term 'produce an OJP mod' is the best way to describe the process. It's better than just 'making a mod' - this sounds like your making it all yourself from scratch...)
Of course you must follow the rules - most importantly giving full credit for the features you use.
Your game ideas may be 'extreme', but as long as they were original and not a copy-cat, then that's fine. You are free to try and make a good, unique game which adds to the OJP 'range' of mods...
shaping up realy nice razor nice work
Thanks Reaper, but I have had some help. :)
I've got several issues that I'm going to put into the next version of the rule handbook:
1. We need to say something about the fact that this is technically applied on top of Raven's code. Basically, something about the way the OJP rules ONLY apply to the works created by OJP contributers. We're simply distroing parts of the Raven code for simplicity. We have every respect for Raven/LEC's rights to their works.
2. Remove the charges of "not giving proper credit to coders in the community" and "changing handles to avoid retribution" since I don't really have direct evidence to back that stuff up. I'll also reword the charges. The ban still stay however.
3. Add a section about the process to submit features to the project.
...I was only speaking hypothetically anyway, just to underline the possibilities.
Whatever you could contribute would be great :)
About your points Razor, agreed to all.
I've sent out some messages to a few people about website and forums - hopefully we'll hear something back soon.
Hi guys.. really interesting ideas!
Renegade it's 1 mounth i'm searchingfor you .. eheh can u cnotact me in some way?
i need to speak with you for a couple of things ( related and not-related to JK )
Those rules aren't as necessary as you think. You'll be scaring people with them. The only reason BOFH was able to "steal" JediMod was because Dest stopped producing it, and because it directly affected end users, getting him fame, which he probably wanted. If someone rips off OJP, whoopdee ****ing doo, no one's going to use it, it's blatantly a rip off, why steer away from the accepted standard? When's the last time you saw someone rip off an open source library for C or C++ like libpng or libjpg? Exactly. They'd get no fame, they wouldn't have any reason to do it. And developers in particular understand the importance of mainstream. I wouldn't start using some jackass' OJPOmni++ 2.5 because he thinks it's better. Source should be available to all, you shouldn't need to e-mail us to get it. That hinders development and scares people away, I know it would for me.
I think there should only be two ways to participate in coding. First is having CVS access, unrestricted, this is for the full time contributors. A listing of current tasks should be kept up to date on a website or sticky thread in a forum. If you keep access unrestricted, it allows anyone to modify anything that isn't being worked on. It would suck to have to go to an administrator and let him chmod a directory or something so you can access it.
The second is submitting patches. Another reason to keep public CVS wide open. A lot of people aren't going to want to join the team, only submit a patch or two. Just about a month ago, a guy I was talking to about window managers for Linux made and submitted a window snapping patch for Fluxbox in about an hour. He submitted it, made it free for download, and then the developers either chose to accept it or reject it some other time. I think that's exactly how OJP should work. Anyone can download the CVS and make any patches they want, and put them up anywhere they want, of course that would all be unofficial, we would have to accept it and add it to the code if we wanted. Now you're probably thinking someone's going to take advantage of this and try to steal some fame or some crap like that, but, as a developer, would you start using patches rejected by the official team? Anything good we will accept, but people should be allowed to do what they want with it, unless they're selling it or something.
Anyways, that's my rant. I'm basically trying to point out that adding rules and restrictions will slow development. People are scared away by that sort of thing. Especially now, when we are starting out, we'll be seen with the attitude of, "Heh, they want me to ask for permission? Who do they think they are??" Quite frankly, we're like nobodys now, we are in no position to be restricting those who want to help us.
Well, Emon has a point as well.
It's really just a matter of how worried you guys are about people using your works, with or without credit, and whither you want to try to help the community out with the similarity clause. But if you're not willing to have additional rules, the chance of people abusing the project is higher.
I'm basically fine with full open as long as people don't use my works commerically. However, I think the similarity clause would help things quite a bit.
I'll go with whatever the majority wants. :)
However, I'm against the task list concept. While I am recording a list of possible fixes, additions, etc, I've found from experience that people will NOT do anything if you give them a task to complete. I have no problem with simply having a "suggestions" list but anything beyond that WILL NOT WORK. The only way things get done in the modding community is when people are directly interested in doing it.
At the end of the day - the OJP is run by majority. We have a pretty good idea who the initial contributors are going to be. So let's see what everyone else thinks. If most people don't want any kind of rules for mods built off the OJP, then I'll go along with that.
I'll state that I think it's potentially a bad idea, but I'm happy to go with the majority on this one...
i.e. I would rather have an OJP which had no rules and some risk involved than have no OJP at all because no-one could live with any rules...!
I think it's fine to make the OJP source available to all without some kind of 'request' e-mail. That makes practical sense as well.
(btw though, with our old proposed system, once you had access - I believe that meant FULL access. I don't believe we were proposing people had to re-request every time that wanted to look at a particular file!)
But I still think some kind of 'rules', for building completely new mods from OJP source are worth-while having.
I agree, it would make no sense for a professional to 'rip-off' open source code. Their not coding for fame - their getting paid to do a job...
The fact is were talking about modding for a computer game - there is a different spectrum of mentality. The incident you mentioned above is a clear example of this. (I'm a bit confused by the fact you seem to have stated a clear example of abuse of open source which is known to have happenned, and then said 'So let's not have any rules this time round'?!)
Will it slow down development? Ermm, potentially I guess it might do - a small bit in some cases. I guess I have to give you that one. But I'd say it's worth it - when the alternative is what happenned before.
Will it scare off people? Were you scared to post on this forum because there were some rules that go along with that activity?
Will people freely contribute to the OJP with NO safe-guards in place against using the code without credit, or suddenly 10 copy-cat's of their mod popping up?
Patches are something different - these are not affected by the rules for building new mods. In fact, as far as patches I would say no hard and fast rules at all. I think maybe we want to be sure that the patch is actually an improvement of somekind to the game - maybe have a coding standard (but I think the admins would have to possibly accept a little bit of code 'clean-up' duty) - but apart from that - anything goes I'd say. Let's let anybody contribute whatever they like. The more, the merrier.
But I think building a new mod off the OJP source is a different story...
And we wouldn't be restricting anybody who wanted to help us. At least that wouldn't be the intention - if we did restrict people who wanted to help, then that would be our fault.
The intention would be to restrict those who want to abuse the open nature of development...
guys, not sure if you know about this, but you may want to take a look... http://pcgamemods.com/2309/
Well, that IS funny!!
(Anybody know this guy?)
they're only saber hilts, too...
and judging by the date, it is probably safe to assume it is not a coincidence.
If it IS a co-incidence, (it's a bit unlikely, but it's possible after all) then fair enough. It's not a problem, we'll work something out.
If it's NOT a co-incidence though, well, I rest my case on the maturity of some modders... :rolleyes:
I think we need to talk to him first though.
(Who knows - maybe he was just trying to get the ball rolling, in an unorganised kind of way!)
I'll leave a quick comment when I get home...
Not really wanting to point the finger at anyone but if you scroll down that thread a little you can probably work out what I think.
Not so coincidental
I agree with what I think bliv thinks.
I've sent the following to the dude. I've also contacted the major file servers about the issue. I haven't ask them to remove the files yet as I want to hear this dude's side of the story first. No need to take forceful action if it was just a honest mistake.
2. They couldn't use it commercially because the EULA prohibits commercial use of any mod. The only way is if someone bought a Q3 engine license and somehow got our code in there, but that's like impossible.
3. No, I don't mean assigned tasks, I mean just keep a list of what people are doing on a forum or website so that other people don't go mucking around in it by accident. Like bob12435 can be like, "hey guys I'm going to do some new physics thing" and then it gets posted on the forum so no one else mucks with his files.
RenegadeOfPhunk, libpng and libjpg are exactly what they sound like, libraries for loading PNG and JPEG files. They're completely open for any kind of software development.
I understand there's a different mentality (and what examle were you talking about where I said it was abused??), but still, think about it. This is a very large project with a lot of developers. It's the first. If someone wants to rip us off, let them try. Everyone's going to know it's a ripoff, so no one's going to use it. I sure as ****ing hell wouldn't take some dumbasses modifications from like the GTK and use them in my software, I want the real thing, and I know everyone else who's a decent developer would too.
I'm not sure what to think of that guy's hilt pack, but from his posts, he just sounds confused.
My basic thought is that rules are going to scare people away. Public CVS access is a must. If anyone tries to steal it from us, let them try, we will just smite them. Let's assume our path is rather rocky, so let's say it will happen. But how many times can it happen? Once? Twice? Over the course of (hopefully) many years? That doesn't sound very threatening, nor does "omgom guys I maed teh ojp-- mod it r lek teh ojp but I changed teh menuz!", etc. If it becomes a serious problem, then we can take action, but right now we are in no position to be making demands of developers who want to use our stuff or contribute.
Edit: Also to support my belief that this is not a problem, look at GtkRadiant and Q3Map2. They both have the source code readily available, there has never been a problem. If some jackass ripped it, called it OmniGtkRadiant or something, would you use it? No, of course you wouldn't, same with Q3Map2. People want reliable stuff, not some immitation crap.
...I'm talking about someone taking OJP code, claiming it as their own and making their own mod out of it, changing enough of it so that many people are fooled into thinking it's original work and then releasing that mod to the public, without any recognition to the original authors.
In this case, it's not developers (decent or otherwise) who are being presented with a 'rip-off', it's the gamers themselves.
Can this happen? YES - it HAS happenned. You've already mentioned the 'incident', and I don't want to mention it directly again (because that's when things start to get heated up around here - which CLEARLY shows it was indeed quite a BIG problem).
I think it's easier to get the guidelines clear right from the start, rather than having to write to every single mod site and tell them to start ripping files down.
Why not try and stop those files getting put up in the first place?!
OK - you may argue there is little we can do about it if somebody wants to do this - especially if we want it to be as open as possible. And yes, you may be right. But why not at least make it very clear this is against our 'rules' (and when I say OUR, I mean ALL contributors, not just a handful of 'high-and-mighty' admins), and if you do this, were going to take steps. If we do make this clear, it is possibe they may not try to begin with, saving not only us, but the mod site admins a whole load of grief we and they don't want!
Check here for the 'rules' of that license.
(I did try and find out for sure whether this was the case directly, but half the links I found to try and get more details about gtkradiant and Q3Map2 weren't working - so I gave up!
But put it this way - I don't know of ANY 'professional' open source code which DOESN'T include some kind of licence similar to the GPL...)
If you know better in these specific cases you've mentioned, then by all means post a link and I'll happily take it back. But I'd be very surprised if you do...
Look, I'm not trying to say we should be like ultra-professionals - just for the sake of it. I know this is just a mod were working on. I don't see this as legal stuff. Because at the end of the day (I know Razor disagrees with me), I don't think taking legal action over mods is either practical or justified.
...these 'rules' were talking about - as far as I'm concerned - are just about:
a. A certain level of common cortosey and respect
b. Reassuring people that if they contribute, the OJP will do whatever it can to make sure they will get the appropiate credit whenever their feature is used / played.
c. Try and stop copy-cat mods appearing all over the place.
Now the copycat mod thing - possibly - is the least important out of the three. But still - why not try and stop this? Basically, if you've made a realtively minor change or addition, please don't go and make a whole new mod.
Instead, please just add it back into the OJP.
...is that really SO much to ask?
Whoa! Okay, hold up, you didn't have to type more than the first few lines. I understand what you are talking about now. I thought you meant a duplicate of OJP, not someone claiming the code as theirs.
This is really easy to fix. In our license agreement, which we can put on our site or on our CVS thing, we just say that if you use code without credit, we can take legal action. The only other thing I can see to stop this is to limit distribution of the source code, which may severely hurt the development of the project, and like I said, scare people away, and would also seem kind of elitist I think, and demanding.
If someone still tries to dick with us, well, there isn't much we can do, other than talk to the mod sites to get them to take the stuff down. If we wanted to threaten with legal action or something, any mod site not run on Geocities is going to comply.
I'd thought I(we) had made ourselves pretty clear too... :confused:
(Although I still think legal action is a little over-the-top, but whatever).
Oh well, at least were all on the same page now :)
I'll start work on a small website.
The problem is, simply telling people to give "proper credit" isn't going to work. A lot of the problems with "the incident" was that there was credit given but it wasn't enough to prevent glory hogging.
If you think credit hogging is more acceptable than some useage rules, that's fine. But we're going to have to accept the conceqences either way.
Personally, I'd rather error on the side of caution and only have the cream of the crop material (since those are probably the only people able/willing to submit) rather than have to suck it up when people totally abuse my work.
Besides, I don't feel like having to babysit crappy modders when they submit code that is in no shape to be intergrated into the project.
And the only other option is limited source code distribution, which I am strongly against.
Please correct me if I am mistaken, but BOFH actually did credit a lot of the code he used. And besides, this is one guy, it's not worth it to drag everything down because something like that might happen again. And did those who got the code stolen ever bother to contact sites to get it removed, or did they just flame BOFH in the forums, because I seem to remember that.
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