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-   -   Sorry....but..need to....rant (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=118333)

Khier 11-23-2003 07:14 AM

Sorry....but..need to....rant
 
Oh...my...****ing...god. Wow, I just got this game yesterday, and I've been called lamer about 234 times, ok that's a slight exaggeration. But still, I was just on this duel server, and I didn't bow to any of my opponents, I never do anymore, but at least I wait and let them do their thing. So then I've done a couple duels and this one guy starts telling me to bow. Just like that he said, "bow". Of course I'm thinking what the ****? So I ask him why I have to do. He starts going on about the same honor **** that people have been fighting since JK2 and I tried reasoning with him. Then everyone else in the server caught attention of "teh eeevil no-b0wing j00 havez noe honourzzz dickhead" (me :rolleyes: ) and thus began the relentless jeering and utterly pissy behaviour. I told them it's just a game, I spent my money on it too, and who cares about 3 dimensional digital star wars characters bowing in a computer game anyways. I tried everything but nothing fricking worked, there is absolutely no getting through to these fricking people. It was gratifying to wipe the floor with that guy's ass after his spiel of name-calling, and the next 3 three guys' asses before leaving out of frustration. They're all a bunch of freaking nazis! Honour nazis! GAAH!! Goddamn I need to take a visit to the Chop Shop or something...

Sorry but I just totally needed to rave and rant, it pissed me off that I can't step into a server without having to be so damned cautious of everything I do in order not to be banned/kicked. Do what you want with this thread because I'm done now.

Lucasforums needs a rant forum methinks.

Kurgan 11-23-2003 07:24 AM

See, the thing is, most of those "h0n0rz d00dZ" don't even realize you really CAN bow in JA (ie: the "Bow" taunt in Duel). Most of them are still rapidly tapping the "crouch" key like monkeys before a fight.


And the ones that really get me are still the guys who stand around with their sabers off waiting in line to fight one on one in a FFA.

Somebody once pointed out how great it is this way because a ton of people can all duel at once in the time it takes for 2 people to duel in "Duel" mode (ie: because you have to wait in line).

Of course the trouble is there's no "mod" to allow more than one saber challenge to occur at a time in JA yet. Duel just gives the server a lot more control over the "honor" aspect of dueling, yet some people still don't use it for some reason.

I guess they consider a laggier version (since you have to load all those player models and the glowy auras around the combatants) of Duel that requires both players to gather health/armor first to be "more honorable." And its not like you can't limit force in Duel, you can to a far greater degree than in a saber challenge (which is still just limiting you to jump and saber throw... of course both allow saber specials/katas and acrobatics).


My advice: Find another server. There are more and more "non honor" (Ie: ASC, Anti-Saberist Code, anything goes, no rules, etc) type of servers.

Join my server or Chop Shop or a dozen others. We aren't big on "honor" or "anti-laming."

I assume you're using the patch, if so you can see hundreds of servers in the in-game browser to choose from.

Join a Siege or CTF server and you won't have as many problems either (since "honor" in those gametypes makes no sense and is nearly impossible to enforce).

Duel is the gametype I've played the least in JA, simply because I prefer not to wait in line or deal with the "honor" BS. Plus if the server is laggy, duels are just not much fun (as Stormhammer pointed out).


My conviction is that "voting enabled," "admin mods" and the "honor code" (or whatever they call it), are the three biggest problems with the JK2 community, and this is also true of the JA community.

However, since the SDK isn't out yet, the problems associated with admin mods haven't surfaced yet (as Amidala is sure to point out, yes, there are benefits to admin mods... I'm simply speaking of their widespread abuse in JK2), and many people, having been fed up with the crap in JK2 are making sure they don't repeat the mistakes of the past.

Good luck....

TK-8252 11-23-2003 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kurgan
"admin mods" ... biggest problems ... the problems associated with admin mods haven't surfaced yet
I have actually read that the author of Jedi Academy mod is taking out almost all of the admin powers, so hopefully there won't be much, if any admin abuse. All he's leaving are the core powers: /amsleep, /amkick, /amkickban, /amsilence, /amrename. Now the abusive admins cant use /ampunish, /amslap, /ambunny, /amempower to humiliate players. :)

Kurgan 11-23-2003 07:52 AM

Well, that's good news, although "sleep" is just as bad as the others as far as potential for abuse to humiliate. : (


My further advice to the author?

DON'T RELEASE YOUR SOURCE CODE!


You'll just end up with a slew of copy-cat programs that have the abusive commands added (which will then be abused and overused, causing people to hate the game).

Sure, smart coders will figure out how to do the stuff on their own, but there's no reason to make it easy for the "I just want to be a jerk admin" folks to get their power-trip fix.

TK-8252 11-23-2003 07:57 AM

Most abusive admins didn't use /amsleep, because /amsleep is just not quite as abusive as other ones. Unlike /ampunish, you can still chat. In JKII, the admins at JK3Files were NOT ALLOWED to use /ampunish, /ambunny, or /amempower! And other players were not allowed to interfere or chat with sleepers.

But /amsleep is a neccesary power for admins on saber down= peace servers. Right now it is impossible to get a lamer's attention with rcon. :mad:

Amidala from Chop Shop 11-23-2003 07:58 AM

One of the automated messages on my servers:

Remember when Qui-gon, Obi-wan, and Maul all bowed to each other before before fighting? Or Obi-wan and Vader? Or Luke and Vader? Hmmmm, neither do I.

The closest thing to "bowing" in the canon is Dooku doing that kind of "en garde" saber-salute to Yoda, his former master, but he didn't bow, and neither did Yoda. Same thing with Dooku vs. Ob-wan and Anakin. Real Jedi and Sith don't bow, because as another one of my automated messages reminds:

"You are unwise to lower your defenses". Hmmmm, where have I heard that before?

Bowing is yet another made-up silly ritual by the honor weenies, or as yet another one of my automated messages asks:

Who made up all these "honor" rules anyway, George Lucas, or a bunch of whiny teenage boys?

TK-8252 11-23-2003 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amidala from Chop Shop
One of the automated messages on my servers:

Remember when Qui-gon, Obi-wan, and Maul all bowed to each other before before fighting? Or Obi-wan and Vader? Or Luke and Vader? Hmmmm, neither do I.

The closest thing to "bowing" in the canon is Dooku doing that kind of "en garde" saber-salute to Yoda, his former master, but he didn't bow, and neither did Yoda. Same thing with Dooku vs. Ob-wan and Anakin. Real Jedi don't bow, because as another one of my automated messages reminds:

"You are unwise to lower your defenses". Hmmmm, where have I heard that before?

Bowing is yet another made-up silly ritual by the honor weenies, or as yet another one of my automated messages asks:

Who made up all these "honor" rules anyway, George Lucas, or a bunch of whiny teenage boys?

The way I see it, the "honor" codes were created for people to show respect. You only see honor codes in saber only servers, because weapon servers just get far to intense for people to bow, etc. Although I don't need someone to bow to me, because if they respect or disrespect me, I don't care.

But... Most people when they duel are not trying to role-play Star Wars. If they WERE role-playing, they would do what they did in the movies, which is just attack. If everyone role-played the whole time, there would be no saber down= peace rules, I mean, Darth Vader isn't going to wait for Luke to finish his comlink message with Han Solo in their duel on the Death Star.

Khier 11-23-2003 08:08 AM

Ok I just added the two chop shop servers, Kurgan's server, and Kaiasawopit's server. I'm sure there is more that would be of interest to me, like some of the competitive clan servers.

This is off topic but I saw a thread somewhere with a bunch of demos of competitive guys beating up honour guys. I didn't have JA at the time so I couldn't view them......

TK-8252 11-23-2003 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Khier Serakk
a bunch of demos of competitive guys beating up honour guys.
Why is there so much hatred between the honor folks and the competitive players? Just because they prefer different styles of playing I guess... That's a pretty immature thing to fight about. Let people play how they want on their own servers.

Rad Blackrose 11-23-2003 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by TK8252MJL
Why is there so much hatred between the honor folks and the competitive players? Just because they prefer different styles of playing I guess... That's a pretty immature thing to fight about. Let people play how they want on their own servers.
In the competitive scene, it's anarchy: no rules, just fun (copyright Outback, yadda yadda). If we sat around the blue flag with one guy holding the gi-tar and the rest holding hands while singing coumbyah, what would that accomplish for us in CTF, besides the fact that it looks like one disoriented circle-jerk.

Think about it for a second, what game modes are attracting the competitive scene? FFA? There's a Team FFA, but not as many TFFA servers as FFA servers. Plus, there's the occasion where one wants to rise as an individual, or plays by himself because random teammates don't understand high end strategy.

Duel? Play against top FF/SO duelers. While you're staring at the ground and holding whatever you bound +movedown to, he will probably have PTed you a few times, if not something worse (I don't know, just the thought of the lack of kicking is enough to make me steer clear of JA's FF/SO due to drain game, flame away with your utter lack of knowledge on kicking and FF/SO if it stirs you).

CTF? Yes, the honor fanbois even took the staple of the competitive community and threw their honor codes and admin mods in there. FFS, the objective is to capture the flag, not sit there while I throw a few det packs under you, do a quick indian dance around you, detonate, watch you fly, and do another dance around your corpse.

What happens when they cross the boundaries and start whining on OUR servers? We get pissed. It's what happened in JO, that's why we crossed and started slaying. It is what led to the Code Wars, it's what led to the post-competitive fanboi bashfest, and I will goddamn guarantee it will happen in JA if they keep it up.

idontlikegeorge 11-23-2003 08:43 AM

The problem is, most honor players, think honor rules apply on ALL SERVERS - which is why you always hear "lamer" "omg j00 l4/\/\3r!!!!1111"

Incidentally, I hate "leet speek" more than I hate airbags, hippies, vegans, and alot of other ****.

Then, you'll have the competitive player who thinks he's the **** 'cause he can cause trouble with the hapless morons on the "honor" servers, and that gets their panties in a knot (no offense to any lady players - I'd bet any girl playing this plays to play, not to go around in tutus and bow and frolic like... something) ...

Anyway...

"The way I see it, the "honor" codes were created for people to show respect. You only see honor codes in saber only servers, because weapon servers just get far to intense for people to bow, etc."

For one, doing a stupid ritual bow, and using a keybind that says "GGNF!!!!1" isn't honor. Silence (ala not running off with unintelligible insults), with an occasion compliment for constant showing of superior skill. Not after every god damn duel.

When there actually was a good duel, I feel it's cheapened when the duellers do some keybind script saying "GGNF" after EVERY duel - good or blantantly not.

It feels like fake respect to eachother. And I'd prefer honest disrespect to false respect. :p

Astrotoy7 11-23-2003 09:03 AM

Re: Sorry....but..need to....rant
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Khier Serakk
Oh...my...****ing...god. Wow, I just got this game yesterday...
Played SP yet Khier ? You wont have these problems then, I assure you !

nonetheless, hope you feel better after the rant. I have played MP online a scant few times, so cannot share your pain... :violin:

MTFBWYA

ManaMana 11-23-2003 09:09 AM

Kupo, Astrotoy... How fun is it to play SP?

I mean, there are no spamming, no whiners, no honours... Boring...

PLAY SP!!!

Amidala from Chop Shop 11-23-2003 09:17 AM

Something for everyone:

First, Vanor gives some an interesting historical perspective on the origins of "saber down = peace" here:
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthrea...70#post1337070

Khier Serakk, the demos you want are here:
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthrea...hreadid=115588

And TK, to understand the animosity, search the forums for "honor", "laming", "saberist code", or just start here:
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthrea...g&pagenumber=1

I don't want to speak for others but the problem is the "honor" crowd has this opinion:
Quote:

Personally I think that killing someone who is unarmed is unfair, all games have rules, all sports, why? so that everyone has a fair shot at winning.
He is right, games and sports have rules. These are made by governing bodies, published in a rule book, and universally recognized as official. But players are not allowed to make-up additional silly rules and try to pretend as if they are real. Can you imagine someone on a football field saying "you didn't bow before tackling me, f**king noob!"? The point "honor" players fail to realize is their sacred "Saber Code of Conduct" is totally made-up, unofficial, and not universally recognized yet people who have been brainwashed, intimidated, or misled into following it go to other servers and whine whine whine when someone "kills" them in a way not to their liking.

I have my official Star Wars® Jedi Knight®: Jedi Academy(tm) game manual in my hands, and it says nothing about "saber off = peace", don't attack players who are chatting, bow before duels, etc. On the contrary, here is what it says about "Free For All"
Quote:

Best summed up as every person for him or herself, players score points by eliminating other players, and no one can be considered an ally. Weapons and equipment are acquired in the field, unless otherwise otherwise specified on the server. Some options include whether to allow Force powers or not and the maximum Force level available.
Period.

Don't "chatkill" or you're an honorless noob? Again, what does my official Star Wars® Jedi Knight®: Jedi Academy(tm) manual say about chatting?
Quote:

Clicking chat will allows (sic) contestants to customize the in-game chat commands. Generally, players won't have time to sit back and type out conversations to each other in a fast-paced multiplayer game. However, there are times when it's necessary to talk to some or all of the players on the server. The default keys are as follows: (etc.)
Period.

If server operators want to make up silly rules that are not in the official manual, not consistent with the "Jedi" ethics they think they emulating as documented in the Star Wars canon, and are totally alien to every other First Person Shooter game all the way back to DOOM, that is their business, but they should realize and admit that their sacred "Code" is as arbitrary and non-universal as making everyone use yellow lightsabers, or having to twirl like a ballerina three times in a clockwise direction before capturing the flag. And please spare us the smug condescension about how "honorable" and "fair" and "skillful" "honor" players are, while the rest of us are a bunch of clueless "lamers".

PG|Prometheus 11-23-2003 10:11 AM

Actually, this competetive players vs Honour guys is rubbish. I've specced loads of matches between competetive guys and on the whole, they both bow (out of respect, not because theres some 12 year old admin with his finger on /amkick).
If they want to bow, fine. I think its cool that the JK series is one of the few games ever that respects the other player. Then again, I don't really care whether people do or not, but you're argueing over a one second crouch at the begginning of a match...

Raven just made bowing 'official' in the honour guys eyes by adding the animations, so thats probably why things are more pronounced now. I never use the animation, it leaves you open if the guy decideds to attack, but if he bows, i'll crouch bow.

At the end of the day, who cares. Sure they might shout abuse at you, but who cares. Beat the guy and shut them up, because at the end of the day, the winner wins.

Coraith 11-23-2003 11:14 AM

It has already been said but just to back up the argument, "Bowing" is a sign of respect for the REAL Player behind the controls, not to the model or the 3d representation of a SW character.

I have respect for all people, no matter what, so I give them a chance to be ready before I attack. The best way to show this is to Bow, weather that be using the Bow emote on Duels servers or crouching and learning the mouse forward on FFA servers (you can't use the bow emote on FFA).

That’s all it is, respect for YOU the person. If I am dueling someone who doesn’t Bow, then I don't get pissy about it I just get on with the game. But I do expect players to wait while I Bow, this in itself shows respect for me as an individual and that’s enough for me.

What is wrong with players wanting to make a gesture of respect for their opponent? this isn't a MMORG, I am not "playing a character", I am in game as myself playing a FPS for kicks. If it was on a LAN setup I would wish everyone Good Luck and I would shake hands with my opponents at the end and the beginning. Why because I believe in showing respect for other people.

In RL sport you will hear a buzzer or a gun shot or some other type of sound that will signal everyone is ready and a fair contest can get underway. I see Bowing in much the same way.

I like to conduct myself with so called "honor", this is a personal choice on my part and I don't expect anyone else to behave in the same way and I wouldn't call anyone "Lame" or "Noob" because they don't Bow.

On the other hand if I was "Bowing" and someone took advantage of that and attacked me I wouldn't Duel that person again. I am showing them respect I would expect them not to take advantage of my good nature.

After the last few days of reading and posting here I have made a point of not calling anyone "Lame" or "Noob" as I hadn't realized how many people hate it. But I still believe in respect for your opponent (the real player behind the computer) so I avoid players who have none.

My two cents,

Kurgan 11-23-2003 11:22 AM

Amidala great points!
 
Ah, the truth finally comes out.... admin mods are needed to enforce honor codes!

Now I've heard everything. ; )

Quote:

Why is there so much hatred between the honor folks and the competitive players? Just because they prefer different styles of playing I guess... That's a pretty immature thing to fight about. Let people play how they want on their own servers.
The reason why there is so much hatred towards "honor folks" is because there is an apparently pervasive movement among them on public servers that harass "non honor" players.

Example:

Group of people join public server.

Somebody gets killed while typing or with their saber down, and they yell "LAMER!" "No Honor!" "Saber Off = PEACE" etc.

Group of people gang up on the "offender" and/or vote-kick them from the server, while heaping on verbal abuse.

Player(s) who were kicked for "not being honorable" (enough) get angry.

Often the cries of "Lamer!" etc aren't even logical, but put out as excuses for poor gaming skills or because they're being stupid (ie: typing in the middle of a battle, or walking around with their saber down looking for a duel and not paying attention to what's going on around them).


So, in short, it's because "honor" people try to enforce their belief system on those who are unwilling in public servers. They use "mob rule" to shove their playing style down other people's throats.


--------------------------------

Why do "honor people" hate competative players? Because competative players refuse to obey the made up honor codes of the honor people. And they get a kick out of making fun of the honor people for their (real or imagined) silly behavior.


Not all "honor folks" consider themselves "Role Players" but many do. Some people actually walk around and "talk" as if they are playing a LARP or pencil and paper RPG while they play on a JA/JK2 server. They are on one extreme end of the spectrum.

On the other are the people who simply believe that "saber off = peace" and "no laming" are good rules to live by and hope other people follow them as well.
==========================


Another problem with the whole "honor" thing is that many admins (who believe in the honor codes) EXPECT people to know them, without making it clear what these codes are.

How is somebody who just got the game or who hasn't played online much supposed to know what these made up codes are and how they work?

So they join a server and kill somebody, then all of a sudden they find themselves AMSleeped or kick or cussed at because they were "laming."

LAMING? What's that? They say as they are cussed at and kicked....

It's enough to make somebody not want to play the game. Or else they give in to mob rule and become another "honor n00b" and abuse others based on this perceived "code."




The "honor code" probably started out innocently enough (maybe somebody at one time did have more fun playing this way), but it's grown into a monster and people take it far too seriously (not to mention abuse it to cover their lack of skills or to "punish" players who are too good for them), that's why I am so against it. It ruins the fun of many many players. The honor folks want everyone to follow their code. The competative players just want to be able to play competatively (ie: the way the game was designed, not how some random players decided it SHOULD be played).

Believe in your honor code if you want, but don't try to enforce it on anybody, UNLESS you're the admin! And "honor" admins have the responsibility to inform every player that joins their server what the rules are, not just lash out at them because they're not psychic (like a real Jedi).
===================


My thoughts are that I'd rather "have fun" playing the game playing the game without having to stop using weapons and powers that are allowed on the server just because somebody else doesn't like them or constantly start and stop and wonder "is that person really ready to fight or are they about to start chatting or turn off their saber in which case I have to drop everything and wait for them to be ready...??"


Honor folk need to turn their world view around.

Instead of assuming that everyone needs to follow their "honor code," they need to assume that the world at large is going to play the game without rules, and thus they can't (and shouldn't try to) force people to abide by their rules, period, unless they're the admin.

And IF they're the admins, they need to let people known (perferably not in an ***hole fashion) what those rules and expectations are.

SlapNut 11-23-2003 11:32 AM

Khier Serakk: Good on ya mate!
;) lol

Kurgan 11-23-2003 11:48 AM

As for showing respect... let's face it, it's OPTIONAL.


Saying "good game" is just as meaningful as "bowing" before a duel.

But requiring people to "show respect" is silly. What if you genuinely have no respect for your opponent?

What if you're just playing to have fun and honestly don't care what the other person says?


Some folks will retort with an "F U" if you tell them good game or something. It makes them mad.

Also, we all know that chatting does (at least in a small way) lag the server, so perhaps the less we do of it, the better for all....


I always thought that "respect is earned." After all, it's not like these are your parents you're playing against. They're not your priest or your rabbi. They're not your "elders" (how would you even know?). So what gives them the right to expect or demand "respect" from you? Nothing!

If you beat me in a close match or something or did something incredible I might give you a compliment. But you shouldn't demand one, when you haven't done anything to cause me to respect you. Why do you suddenly assume I owe you something?

In sports you don't see the players constantly complimenting the other team before and after every single point (sure you have some things like bowing before a match in Karate or Kendo or the salute before a fencing match, but that's actually a RULE and part of the sport, most sports don't have such rules). You might see the two teams (or two coaches) shaking hands after the game or right before, but that's different. This gaming "Sport" has no rule that you have to show respect before each match.

The manual suggests that players refrain from "excessive profanity" in playing, but that's it!

If you wish to show me respect for no reason, that's fine and your perrogative, but don't bash me because I don't choose to do the same.

It's just a "tradition" but it's not a tradition shared by all.

For example, many Jews keep "Kosher" (avoiding eating certain foods and only eating foods prepared according to dietary rituals and regulations). To them, this is a deeply meaningful and healthful practice, part of their religion.

But does this mean they should expect the majority of other people (who are not Jewish) to obey Kosher rules?

No.

Rather, they should be allowed to keep Kosher if they wish, since it has meaning for them.

In the same way, if the "honor folks" wish to practice honor, among like minded individuals, fine. But they also have to respect (no pun intended) the right of those who don't believe in it, to practice their "non honor" gameplay style.


To make another religious analogy (since the honor code seems to have near "religious" significance to some of the honor folk), it would be like if a group of Christians went around to neighborhoods on Sunday and took all the people who were not in Church and threw them in prison, because they were not following the same "code." Would that be fair?

(And another thing, if they were doing this, wouldn't that imply that the Christians were breaking their own rule by not being in Church on Sunday? Likewise I think some of the honor folk disrespecting the "non honor folks" are acting quite WITHOUT HONOR by persecuting their fellow player...).

Just some illustrations that I hope make the point clearer...

Coraith 11-23-2003 11:59 AM

I expected more from you Kurgan you're obviously intelligent, I quite clearly stated I do NOT expect players to show me respect, I just ask that if I show them respect they don't take advantage of it and attack me while Bowing, I never mentioned GF after a duel.

Showing respect comes in all walks of life. If I don't show the appropriate respect in life I will never get what I want. If I walked into a shop and said "give me what I want now" I would get nothing, on the other hand if I asked "can I have this" I will get what I want. This is a form of respect for someone I don't know.

The world is built on it and if we all showed distain for people instead of respect then it would be a very different world.
Are you saying that because it’s a game and because I will never meet these players in RL that I should change me life style and show distain for said players?

I choose to show respect, I do not ask that anyone else should do the same.

Online gaming is sadly lacking in the simple respect we all show each other every day in RL. Why would this be a bad thing for the game?

CapNColostomy 11-23-2003 12:14 PM

You know, I read alot of replies here where somebody says something like "way to go Kurgan!" or something along those lines. And I always think to myself, "gee, that guy really likes kissing moderator ass." Well...how should I put this next part? Get your ass off my mouth? No, that would never do. Maybe something more along the lines of WAY TO GO KURGAN! Between yours and Amidala's remarks on the whole homo-eroticism of the honor code horse poo thing, I had a very nice read. DOWN WITH FACIST HONOR QUIM!

Quote:

Originally posted by Coraith


Online gaming is sadly lacking in the simple respect we all show each other every day in RL. Why would this be a bad thing for the game?

Dear sir. I am in no way am saying you're a quim. But the above statement caught my attention just after my hitting reply, so I thought I'd fire up a quick edit. I show people respect in real life almost constantly in "RL" on a daily basis, if your idea of showing respect is not throwing thermal detonators at them whilst they sit down for a chat with me. Other means of my showing respect based on your ideas include, but are not limited to: I do not impale anyone with a laser sword if they don't have one handy in "RL". It's always been a fantasy of mine though, so I do it in a video game. But I have to draw the line at bowing. I do not bow, and have never bowed to anyone "everyday in RL." And I'm gonna go the extra mile and say I never will. No offense man, it's just not relevant at all to mention how you treat people in "RL" when discussing a game. Just my humble opinion.

SlapNut 11-23-2003 12:42 PM

who cares, if you think that chat killing is bad, then dont get all angry and swear at them and make them feel bad, because it doesnt do anything to you, it just gives them an extra kill, if they beat u becaus of it, ignor it and think in your head "I win this round, he cheated" and its all good, its better to have 2 happy people than 2 angry people. Do whgat ever you can to have fun, and getting angry at people itsnt what i call fun, if it is for you, then your just as bad a lamer as the chat killer who is making some people angry too. Have fun, i hope all SlapNuts fans will have fun in the future.

(does anyone know the cheat for changing the camera angle?)

griff38 11-23-2003 12:59 PM

HONOR
 
You know funny thing about honor and respect is, you get neither if you DEMAND it.

They have to be earned.

Amidala from Chop Shop 11-23-2003 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Coraith
It has already been said but just to back up the argument, "Bowing" is a sign of respect for the REAL Player behind the controls, not to the model or the 3d representation of a SW character.

I have respect for all people, ...
Do you respect those who don't believe in or follow your "Saberist Code of Conduct"? Your past posts ("I expected more from you Kurgan you're obviously intelligent...") suggest otherwise.

Quote:

...no matter what, so I give them a chance to be ready before I attack. The best way to show this is to Bow,...
That's your opinion, and the opinion of others who think as you do. But that's all it is, opinion. Can you possibly allow that others think it is a useless waste of time? Their opinion is just as valid as yours.

Quote:

weather that be using the Bow emote on Duels servers or crouching and learning the mouse forward on FFA servers (you can't use the bow emote on FFA).

That’s all it is, respect for YOU the person. If I am dueling someone who doesn’t Bow, then I don't get pissy about it I just get on with the game.
Good for you! But as Khier Serakk described in his post, your approach is rare. 13-year-old "Jedi" get very abusive and profane when they aren't shown the proper "respect".

Quote:

But I do expect players to wait while I Bow, this in itself shows respect for me as an individual and that’s enough for me.
Fair enough.

Quote:

What is wrong with players wanting to make a gesture of respect for their opponent? this isn't a MMORG, I am not "playing a character", I am in game as myself playing a FPS for kicks. If it was on a LAN setup I would wish everyone Good Luck and I would shake hands with my opponents at the end and the beginning. Why because I believe in showing respect for other people.
There is nothing wrong with it as long as it doesn't become an expectation and demand. But that's exactly what it has become on those oppressive "honor" servers. If someone doesn't follow that queer little ritual (and I chose that word carefully for it's "dual" meaning [and I was tempted to use a homonym as a pun just then, not bad for an unwashed, unfair, unskilled, dishonorable lamer]) the whining, profanity, and abuse soon follow from those oh-so-honorable "Jedi".

Quote:

In RL sport you will hear a buzzer or a gun shot or some other type of sound that will signal everyone is ready and a fair contest can get underway.
Again, those are official parts of that sport, probably with official specifications as to the type of gun or buzzer.
Quote:

I see Bowing in much the same way.
Again, just your opinion and that of others who believe as you do. It has no official weight. Please do not become abusive if we don't agree (not you personally, I'm speaking to your cohorts).

Quote:

I like to conduct myself with so called "honor", this is a personal choice on my part and I don't expect anyone else to behave in the same way and I wouldn't call anyone "Lame" or "Noob" because they don't Bow.
Or at least you've stopped calling people lame and noob, as you yourself describe below. Thank you.

Quote:

On the other hand if I was "Bowing" and someone took advantage of that and attacked me I wouldn't Duel that person again. I am showing them respect I would expect them not to take advantage of my good nature.
Or perhaps just drop the friggin' bowing and get on with the fight!

Quote:

After the last few days of reading and posting here I have made a point of not calling anyone "Lame" or "Noob" as I hadn't realized how many people hate it.
Again, thank you for stopping that obnoxious, dishonorable, and disrespectful behavior. But don't you see how doing that in the past was incongruous with your earlier statement? (quoted below)
Quote:

"I have respect for all people, no matter what"
Can you understand why many of us consider so-called "honor" players (and I'm not necessarily referring to you specifically) to be silly, pompous, pretentious, abuse-prone, hypocritical twits?

Quote:

But I still believe in respect for your opponent (the real player behind the computer) so I avoid players who have none.

My two cents,
Perhaps then you'll be avoiding most "honor" players in the future.

PG|Prometheus 11-23-2003 04:16 PM

hehe why are you all getting so uptight, writing long posts over people pressing an animation button or crouching? Come on, if you don't want the honour guys, dont play with them, just as if there are more competetive players, the honour guys wont play with us (or will just shout things in vein).
People have argued that they want to play the game a certain way, so things should be removed. Not everyone agreed, but there you go.
Now the honour guys want to play a certain way, not everyone agrees with, but leave them alone on their servers and let them leave others alone on theirs.

Master William 11-23-2003 04:27 PM

My friend got the game 2-3 days ago. As soon as he played, some 45-year old guy started calling my friend a lamer.

My friend was 'lamed' by the the guy who was calling him lamer before he 'lamed' him, still the guy started whining.

Great way to welcome players, my friend prefers playing SP now. This is already worse than the goddamn Counter-Strike game. JA/JK2 receive the awards for containing the worst idiots ever.

Counter-Strike, eat your heart out.

Imperial_thug 11-23-2003 04:30 PM

Most ppl will see the problem with this "saber down = peace" garbage when they are dueling some jackoff and he suddenly drops his saber because he is low on health. I've seen this happen many times, so what do you do in that situation? I know I would just finish him, duels are to the death. So you kill him, it's inevitable that "omg you lamed me" will follow, and if that person happens to be an admin prepare to be put to sleep.

CapNColostomy 11-23-2003 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by PG|Prometheus
hehe why are you all getting so uptight, writing long posts over people pressing an animation button or crouching? Come on, if you don't want the honour guys, dont play with them, just as if there are more competetive players, the honour guys wont play with us (or will just shout things in vein).
People have argued that they want to play the game a certain way, so things should be removed. Not everyone agreed, but there you go.
Now the honour guys want to play a certain way, not everyone agrees with, but leave them alone on their servers and let them leave others alone on theirs.

Pffft! That's the whole problem, slick! You can't simply not play with the "honour guys". They're worse than the clap. And I'm not entirely convinced they're "guys" either. They're every freakin' where. And they assume that everyone takes it from behind, just because they like to. No matter what the server rules say, facist honor quim are gonna be there telling you how they think it oughta be, and slinging their "lamer" arrows.

Much to my ammusement, new threads completly trashing them, crop up here on a daily basis. If they had any concept of the meaning of the word "honor", they'd know griping, pissing, moaning, bitching, etc, about someone not playing "I'll bend over if you do" is not honorable. Given the anonimity of the internet, one might even conclude that it's cowardly.

Pedro The Hutt 11-23-2003 04:58 PM

That's why I stick to just a few select servers where I know that most of the people are nice XD

But I don't see a point in turning off your saber when you're near death o.o sure you might not get struck IF your opponent keeps to the rules, but what would help, let alone bring you closer to victory in the end? >.> Mah well.

SpaceButler13 11-23-2003 05:48 PM

Yes, I bow, and yes, I use crouch, actually because I don't really care for bowing and it's quicker, but I'd really rather not kill someone who's possibly just had a cat step on his keyboard or something. It's just not fun. I also say gf as sort of a "no, I'm not going to call you a lamer" or whatever. The nusto honor kids really irk me, esp. on ffa servers and I've posted before about obnoxious things they've done, but bowing and whatnot doesn't make you one of them, at least not in the duel game-type. The opposite sort of people who butterfly into someone trying to bow then with "hahahahahah!111111 j00 m0r0n!!!111" is pretty damned obnoxious too, often because the other person just wants to have a fun duel with someone not afk.

Amidala from Chop Shop 11-23-2003 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by PG|Prometheus
hehe why are you all getting so uptight, writing long posts over people pressing an animation button or crouching? Come on, if you don't want the honour guys, dont play with them, just as if there are more competetive players, the honour guys wont play with us (or will just shout things in vein).
People have argued that they want to play the game a certain way, so things should be removed. Not everyone agreed, but there you go.
Now the honour guys want to play a certain way, not everyone agrees with, but leave them alone on their servers and let them leave others alone on theirs.

I'm not uptight about it, my post was long because most of it was quotes. And if the "honor" players did as you suggest, stayed on their own servers and did their own thing, I couldn't care less.

But for the hundreth time *sigh*, I'll repeat it again: the problem is they don't stay on their own Bizarro servers, bowing, chatting, apologizing for the wrong type of kill ("Sorry, I didn't see your chat bubble"), and anxiously looking over their shoulders for some power-crazed 13-year-old admin who might "punish" them. They invade other servers (like mine) and wrongly assume their "honor code" is universal and an official part of the game. They whine, curse, and try to browbeat and intimidate others to their misguided way of thinking.

My servers have a clean, pure, simple "all kills are legal, don't whine when you die" policy, clearly stated in the MOTDs (different for each map) and automated server messages. Despite that, these "honor" players descend like locusts and try to impose their made-up "rules" and "Codes" on my server. Here is a small sample of actual transcipts of the nonsense I have to deal with:
Quote:

saber down = no attack!!!
ffs if your sword is down donyt attack!!!
saber down is peace u muppet
sabre down=peace
do ANY of you idiots understand that you are NOT supposed to attack people that are typeing or have no gun or saber armed
saberdown you dickhead
how about this... WHEN F***ING SABRE IS DOWN DON'T F***ING ATTACK THEM
is that going through you f***ing brains (wow, such language from a "man of honor")
noone in this game seems to have the intelligence to grasp that very simple concept :\
*sighs* this game is full of the lamest honorless f***s ive ever had the missfortune to play with
sabre down or guns down= peace
anyone who killes me when i have my sabre down or guns down or chat ill kick them (Interesting, this "honor" player is a liar since he doesn't have the power to kick anyone)
this is your server sniper dude?
yes (another lie from the "honor" player)
do i have to remind everyone... NO LAMING OR ELSE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (more empty threats)
my saber is down f***ing moron
what's with jerkoff a**hole f***sticks killing people when they're obviously a talking caption over their head?
Darth_Revan: DUstin, laming is not cool, it's for noob bitches that didle childeren, so stop
any rules or is sab down killing OK?
no saber down killing or chat killing (another "honor" player imposing HIS rules on MY server)
fatpants we all agreed on no saber off kills or chat kills (no, no one agreed, you just tried to make up some rules and make others follow them)
That is why this is a problem. If they just stayed on their purely "honor" code servers and stopped trying to spread their "religion" to other servers, we could just avoid those "honor" servers and everyone would be happy. But they won't.

FK | unnamed 11-23-2003 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by PG|Prometheus
hehe why are you all getting so uptight, writing long posts over people pressing an animation button or crouching? Come on, if you don't want the honour guys, dont play with them, just as if there are more competetive players, the honour guys wont play with us (or will just shout things in vein).
People have argued that they want to play the game a certain way, so things should be removed. Not everyone agreed, but there you go.
Now the honour guys want to play a certain way, not everyone agrees with, but leave them alone on their servers and let them leave others alone on theirs.

You’re missing the point man.

I'm all for personal choice as well.

If a guy wants to run around and pretend he's darth Spock, hey more power to him.

But that goes both ways.
If I want to connect to a server and start slashing and shooting things, should I not have that option as well?

Where the frustration lies is those people who plopped down 49.99 for a game and just want to actually "play" it are finding it that task becoming increasingly more difficult.

Jedi Outcast became so absurdly infested with this "honor" bull**** that it got to the point in the latter 6 months of the games life, where finding ANY server that let you just connect and play without going through some ridiculous role playing rituals, or that did not "admin punish" you for violating some asinine "codes of honor" became impossible.

And the argument "find another server" is not a valid argument either, here is why:

If this was restricted to specific servers yes, "find another place to play" would be a valid point, but the fact is these 'honor" people infest and enforce this crap on PUBLIC servers with no established rules.

I don't know how many times I've seen a pack of these tools gang up and vote people off public servers just because those said players were... playing... on a public server no less.

Hell, I ran 3 separate servers in Outcast and on the few occasions where I screwed up and left voting on, these retards would try and vote us off our own server for "laming", even after they had been warned to stfu about the honor bull**** and just play.

The sad fact is, if you go to a server and encounter a pack of these idiots, simply "leaving and finding another server to play on" will bring you into a server with even more of them.


/edit

she beat me to it, but same thing she said ^

TK-8252 11-23-2003 06:15 PM

I agree with what you are all saying. MOST honor players are really not very honorable when it comes with dealing with the non-honorable players. I feel that these players have ruined the way people look at honor players. I just hope you guys know that not ALL honor players are ass****s. There are SOME good ones. Take the JK3Files server (oh I just love advertising it)...

-It does have the saber down= peace rule.
-It does have the no chat killing rule.
-THESE RULES DO NOT APPLY IN DUELS.
-Bowing is not required.
-If you are in the way of the FFA with your saber down or chatting, and you are killed, it's YOUR fault, not the killer's fault.
-Offensive, abusive, profane, vulgar, etc. language is not allowed.
-There is no voting.
-Admins must have visual evidence of rule breaking before even warning someone. In Jedi Outcast, that meant /amsleep.
-In Jedi Outcast, admins were not allowed to use /ampunish.
-If someone was put to sleep, other players were not allowed to chat or interfere with their conversation with the admin. So a group of players couldn't stand over a player and yell OMG J00 MOTHER****ING N00B!!1! BAN THE ASS****!!!!!!!11
-If someone continually falsely accuses someone of laming, the whiner would be kicked.

As you can see, a lamer would not be abused under these rules.

PG|Prometheus 11-23-2003 06:21 PM

What I mean is, theres nothing that can be done. You make it sound like these people are a majority. I know they're not, but don't make it sound like it is, because as many people pointed out in competetive vs casual arguements, the minority loses.

Raven added animations for these honour guys, yet another pointer defining which players the game is aimed at.
I don't play ffa, but I don't see the point in chatkilling a guy...I play to kill people that fight and to spend a few seconds slashing into a guy stood still doesnt attract me. Then again, in ctf, or if someone backs out of a duel when they lose, many a time I've chatkilled them or 'got them with their saber down' (omg blasphomous).

At the end of the day, if these guys are a majority, then theres not much you can do. If they're a minority, find another server. And if they invade your server, use their em powers back at them and kickban them.

FK | unnamed 11-23-2003 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TK8252MJL
I agree with what you are all saying. MOST honor players are really not very honorable when it comes with dealing with the non-honorable players. I feel that these players have ruined the way people look at honor players. I just hope you guys know that not ALL honor players are ass****s. There are SOME good ones. Take the JK3Files server (oh I just love advertising it)...

-It does have the saber down= peace rule.
-It does have the no chat killing rule.
-THESE RULES DO NOT APPLY IN DUELS.
-Bowing is not required.
-If you are in the way of the FFA with your saber down or chatting, and you are killed, it's YOUR fault, not the killer's fault.
-Offensive, abusive, profane, vulgar, etc. language is not allowed.
-There is no voting.
-Admins must have visual evidence of rule breaking before even warning someone. In Jedi Outcast, that meant /amsleep.
-In Jedi Outcast, admins were not allowed to use /ampunish.
-If someone was put to sleep, other players were not allowed to chat or interfere with their conversation with the admin. So a group of players couldn't stand over a player and yell OMG J00 MOTHER****ING N00B!!1! BAN THE ASS****!!!!!!!11
-If someone continually falsely accuses someone of laming, the whiner would be kicked.

As you can see, a lamer would not be abused under these rules.

jk2files.com was the biggest whiny ass, no talent noob infested server in the history of that game.

I will say a couple of the guys who had rcon there were decent people (Atlas and Shroom Duck come to mind) but the rest were just crappy players and nerds on a mission of holy galactic geek vengeance.

I've been to the jk3files.com server a few times and I admit it's not as bad as before, but one thing is missing that could (and chances are will) change that:

An admin mod

The used to give admin to anyone of the regular newbie’s who played there (scratch "play", I meant to say stood around there) and groveled, sucked up and stroked their nerd egos.

If that has changed, great, but I really doubt it.

FK | unnamed 11-23-2003 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by PG|Prometheus
What I mean is, theres nothing that can be done. You make it sound like these people are a majority. I know they're not, but don't make it sound like it is, because as many people pointed out in competetive vs casual arguements, the minority loses.


At the end of the day, if these guys are a majority, then theres not much you can do. If they're a minority, find another server. And if they invade your server, use their em powers back at them and kickban them.

They are the majority, without a doubt.

In Outcast, the number of servers I was banned from, from my first ban, to may last, was close to one thousand.

No joke, no exaggeration.

Granted a lot of those were multiple bans on the same servers, but still, being banned from over 500 separate individual servers in less than a year is just insane for any online game.

I mean Jesus man, people who try to wall hack and aimbot on punkbuster servers in other games like RTCW or Quake 3, don't even get ban figures that high.

And the sad thing is, off all those bans, I would say maybe 3 tops did not revolve around the honor/lamer crap.

And almost every single one of those bans involved an admin mod.

Admin mods were no different than client side hacks; they gave newbie’s the means to survive in a game they sucked at.

Can't kill that player who owns you?

/empower

Still can't kill him?

/amsleep


He keeps /reconnecting and killing you before you can put him back to sleep?

/kickban

I would say about 60% of this community has this "whaaa mommy" mentality for some damn reason, and mark my word, when and if these admin mods ever do surface, the all mighty noob avenger command of /kickban is going to make "fun and frantic paced game play” for the casual gamer tougher to find than Dinosaurs in South Central Los Angles.

PG|Prometheus 11-23-2003 06:50 PM

Come on man, I join servers and after 5 minutes press /disco bind before they can scream "S4B3r D0Wn = P34c3?!!?". If they do the honour stuff, or have the admin that enforces it, I just don't play there.
I found a few ffa servers in JK2 where you do what you want. And duel, well it wasn't really a problem to find a server, but if there wasn't many on, I'd just put up with crouching before I killed them (or them me :P). But theres quite a few good competetive players who do bow...obviously don't cry about you not returning it, but not everyone fits under the same umberella :P

eniaC 11-23-2003 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Khier Serakk
This is off topic but I saw a thread somewhere with a bunch of demos of competitive guys beating up honour guys. I didn't have JA at the time so I couldn't view them......

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthrea...hreadid=115588

Coraith 11-23-2003 07:11 PM

My last post here so I am going to spell it out for the people who have me mixed up with someone else,

I believe in showing respect for my opponent, that’s all there is to it.

I DO NOT think everyone else should do this,

I DO NOT think that someone who doesn't show respect should be called lame or noob,

I DO NOT expect other players to behave like me,

I DO NOT want or have any wish to try and "convert" players to my way of thinking,

I DO NOT think I am right and you are all wrong,

Now for the DO's,

I DO think this is a personal opinion of mine,

I DO think that if someone shows you respect you should at least have the stones to wait till they are finished bowing and not attack them; if you’re good you need no advantage,

I DO think this "ideal" is more then evident in RL,
For example,
I went Kickboxing this afternoon, after a bit of a warm up me and a local lad who I don't know personally decided to have a spar, before we started trying to knock each other out we "touched gloves", why?, because neither of us wanted an "unfair" advantage over the other.
During the match I clocked the poor lad in the nadds by mistake, now after an apology we again "touched gloves" and continued.

I use this example to show that I have respect for an opponent, regardless of the fact that it has been "earned" or not.

I DO think this is a good thing for the game, any game, and the servers I play on it works fine and everyone comes away feeling like they have had a fair round of duels with like minded players.

I DO think that the most skilled players I have ever had the joy to duel have come from the same type of servers I play on, and all the best players I have fought have never needed an advantage of any kind to beat me including hitting me while I bow or any other type of advantage.

Now that is how I feel, this is my opinion, I couldn't give two flying F**Ks about weather or not anyone here thinks the same, I respect your right to play as you wish, I ask that you respect mine.

/END

Dracofyre 11-23-2003 07:39 PM

Ahh yes, those honor loving smacktards of the JK MP universe. It is because of these guys, who love to bunch into groups and apparantly just talk to each other, that I am CONVICED that is why the saberstaff has a 360 degree hitting kata.

It is because of these "honor" freaks that JKO MP collapsed and the forum community died. It is also because of these guys that I still proudly bear my ASC tag, and will do all I can to make these honor morons cry and whine. If I get banned from the server, so much the better.

The minute you join the server you are a combatant. Saber off does NOT equal peace. Saber off DOES equal, you are a moron, here's a saber through your head. Same thing for in game chatting.

If you bow to me, I will DFA you. No questions asked. I see you lower your saber and do that crap and you will get a saber through your head.

When I join a server, I come to kill, and if you're within saber reach, then you are a target.


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