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Darth Windu 02-11-2004 10:03 AM

Conquer the Galaxy - Minor Civs
 
Hi everyone. In addition to the main , playable civs, i was wondering what everyone's opinion on minor civs would be. These civs would be limited to a signle planet/system and would constitute only a few units, but would make the 'Conquer the Galaxy' mode seem more 'real' and interesting. Some examples of minor civs would be-
- Kaminoans
- Geonosians
- Wookiees (if not a playable civ)
- Hapes
- Chiss
and others.

These minor civs would, once conquered by a player, give that player certain benefits. For example, conquering the Geonosians or Kaminoans would give the player an extra Army. Conquering the Wookiees would decrease global build times etc.

Opinions? Suggestions?

lukeiamyourdad 02-11-2004 11:28 PM

Give the player an extra army is overpowered. simple bonuses like with your wookiees seems alright. Eh not such a bad idea.

Darth Windu 02-12-2004 02:04 AM

Sorry, i should have explained myself better. In RoN, which uses an e-risk map for the 'Conquer the World', there are supply center's in various regions, and so when you capture a supply center, you can play a new Army anywhere in the territory you control, unless there is already an army present. You can also not attack with more than one army at a time, though other armies close to you can send reinforcement.
The supply center's i would be looking at for SWGB2 would be-
- Kamino
- Geonosis
- Corellia
- Kuat

any others?

lukeiamyourdad 02-12-2004 02:10 AM

Wow much clearer lol. Sorry for the sarcasm.

Does it mean that the army you "get" is at first AI controlled and if you want, you can play as them only? I've only played the RoN demo I wouldn't know more.

General Nitro 02-12-2004 02:14 AM

how about tatoonie? tatoonie would consistes of tusken raiders. jawas, bounty hunters, and so forth. small civs within the planet could lead up to a fight with the hutt cartel.

Darth Windu 02-12-2004 11:22 AM

luke - with RoN's 'Conquer the World' you start off with a single army and a single territory (your capital). Capturing different regions gives you bonus' that affect you throughout the campaign.
However, there are some regions that have a 'supply center'. When you capture a region containing a supply center, you are given control of a second Army that you can place anywhere in your territory.

In any turn, you can move any number of armies, but can only attack with one at a time. All of them are player-controlled.
Did that clear it up?

Nitro - cant do that, because in my template Tatooine in the homeworld of the Hutt Cartel.

Sithmaster_821 02-12-2004 11:51 PM

Don't ever recall voting yes in a Windu poll......

Darth Windu 02-13-2004 02:04 AM

Why am i not suprised? Any particular reason why you voted no?

saberhagen 02-13-2004 06:20 PM

Windu in good idea shock!!!

I like this, believe it or not. I think if there is going to be a CTG game, it would definitely make it more interesting if different planets/systems give you different kinds of advantages for capturing them. Even if it's not entirely balanced it could make for a good game as players compete to get the most significant planets - sort of like a development of the nova lake map.

Darth Windu 02-14-2004 05:11 AM

I was also thinking about giving Coruscant a big bonus. In RoN, you can upgrade the defence level of any region to a level of 8 (with 1 being the lowest) with the region being harder to capture as the defence rating goes up. I'm thinking of having the same thing, except allow Coruscant to have a defence rating of 9 or 10, plus give its owner a huge economic bonus. Actually, what sort of bonus' should Coruscant give a player?

Suggestions?

Admiral Vostok 02-15-2004 10:44 PM

Well I think many minor civs could work this way. I'd like to suggest Trandoshans and Ewoks, since they had a presence in SWGB1.

As for Coruscant's bonus, it's difficult because it would be the home world for either Republic or Empire.

Darth Windu 02-16-2004 12:27 AM

I agree about the Ewoks and Trandoshans, especially considering the importance of the Ewoks, but what bonus would they give if you took Endor?

Also, Coruscant is rather tricky. The problem with this world is that, if you include EU, the planet has been the Capital for four of my 9 civs - those of course being the Empire, Republic, Rebels, Vong.

What i think i'd rather do is have it being a neutral world to start off with, and have the Republic homeworld as Alderaan and possibly the Imperial homeworld as Kuat or Corellia.

This could also lead to interesting multiplayer game modes for things like 'whoever captures Coruscant first wins' and the like.

Admiral Vostok 02-16-2004 06:45 PM

That could work well. If we're allowing the Empire to fight the Republic I guess it won't matter that neither of them start on Coruscant.

I'd suggest Kamino for the Republic (since that's where their army was initially built) and perhaps Kuat for the Empire (not Corellia because as I understand my EU they weren't exactly the most Imperialistic planet).

So I'd suggest the following for starting planets:

Confederacy: Geonosis
Empire: Kuat
Hutts: Tatooine
Naboo: Naboo
Rebels: Yavin 4
Republic: Kamino
Trade Federation: Neimoidia
Wookiees: Kashyyyk

Not sure what you'd do for the Vong, don't they come from another galaxy?

As for benefits that planets give you, I'd suggest they only give you economic bonuses or bonus units, though admittedly I'm not 100% clear on how the Conquer the Galaxy thing works. Here's my ideas (note that planets which are the homeworld for a civ will still give the bonuses, which makes them even more attractive to capture:
Bespin: Weapon upgrades are cheaper because of the Tibanna gas mine
Coruscant: Huge economic bonuses, perhaps like a constant flow of resources.
Dagobah: Jedi are cheaper?
Endor: Bonus Ewok units such as trappers and such.
Geonosis: Mechanical units built faster
Kamino: Biological units built faster
Kuat: Aircraft are built faster
Naboo: Power sources such as Power Cores are cheaper due to use of Naboo Plasma
Neimoidia: Trade techs are cheaper
Not sure of any others.

Darth Windu 02-17-2004 12:30 AM

Vostok - i agree with most of what you said, except for the homeworlds of the Republic and Confederacy. The problems here are that
- Kamino isnt in the Republic
- Geonosis was captured by the Republic at the end of Ep2

Iwas thinking perhaps Muunlist for the Confederacy...

Also, in terms of extra armies and the like, its kinda hard to explain any better than i already have. The best way for you to see what im talking about is have a go at RoN's conquer the world.

PS: yeah, the Vong come from another Galaxy, i think the EU authors call it the 'unknown regions' but i could be wrong, i havent actually read any of the NJO books.

lukeiamyourdad 02-17-2004 01:37 AM

Kamino now IS part of the Republic. As a military base of course. It kinda makes sense.

What's Muunlist?

Darth Windu 02-17-2004 02:39 AM

Luke - how do we know that? I mean really, Obi had never heard of the place, and when he asked Dexter if it was in the Republic, the answer was 'no'. Besides, it's too far out of the 'core worlds' to make a good capital.

With Muunlist, i've seen it mentioned a few times in books. It's an Imperial world, but during the Clone Wars it was the capital of the Banking Clan (i think), so it's as good a capital as any.

Lord_Angelus 02-17-2004 03:49 PM

The Unknown Regions are the last areas of the Galaxy that have yet to be explored.

The Yuuzhan Vong don't come from there but for this game, maybe they could start at a random planet somewhere on the outer rim?

They wouldnt get any bonus for their capital, instead they would have a chance to build up the worlds they conquer before attracting the attention of the other civs located towards the core.

Worf

swphreak 02-17-2004 06:07 PM

Yuuzhan'tar is the Yuuzhan Vong homeworld in their "other galaxy" and the renamed Coruscant to Yuuzhan'tar after the invasion.

spoiler:
In TUF, it basically says that Zenoma Sekot is the Yuuzhan Vong homeworld, and that Sekot stripped the Vong of their force as a punishment.


Muunlist is a Banking Clan planet (the capital I think) during the Clone Wars.

Admiral Vostok 02-18-2004 07:11 PM

Windu - I agree with what you're saying, but I think in order for this Conquer the Galaxy idea to work, you'll have to take some liberties. Sure, Kamino isn't even in the Republic, but it is the planet from which the army issues forth. Plus it is recognisable from the movies which I think is important.

And yes, Geonosis was captures in Episode II, but it still is the starting planet for the Confederacy because that is how it is in the movies. If you're using that argument you could also say that Alderaan was destroyed by the Empire so can't be used in the game. Think of it this way: they are playing Conquer the Galaxy in Episode II and the Republic player captures the Confederacy player's homeworld. Again, it is also recognisable from the movies.

Darth Windu 02-19-2004 02:31 AM

Vostok - well, you have to look at believability (if thats a real word). By this, people will not believe that Geonosis is the Confed homeworld, seing as the Republic captures it in Ep2. If it were, there would be no more Clone Wars.

Also, with Kamino and Geonosis, they are both production facilities, not Administrative center's, which is needed for a capital. It's like saying that Detriot should be the capital of the USA.

Given Alderaan's high position within the Republic, and the fact that the destruction of that world would 'make a good example', plus the continued dedication of the Organa's to the Jedi makes it a good Republic capital world - that, and it is actually in the Republic.

Same thing goes for Muunlist.

Admiral Vostok 02-19-2004 05:58 AM

I think after Episode III Alderaan will not be that suitable for a Republic Army. Alderaan is the primary planet in starting the Rebel Alliance, which is technically against the Clone Army since by that time they have turned into the Empire. I know Kamino isn't the best choice, but I think for the purposes of recognisability to gamers it makes sense.

As for Geonosis, it is the homeworld of the Confederacy, even if it was taken. That's where the treaty was signed by the Commerce Guilds and where the armies of the Separatists gathered. Episode III might present a better homeworld but eventually (since the Separatists aren't around for the Civil War) that will get taken by the Republic/Empire too. Which planet do you intend to make the Rebel's homeworld? Because all of their bases get taken by the Empire. Again it makes sense from a gaming perspective.

Darth Windu 02-19-2004 09:11 AM

Vostok - you raise a good point about planets being destroyed/taken. The way i figure it, we work with the homeworlds in a vacuum. In other words, ignore what happened AFTER the time period we are looking at for each race, because otherwise it'll just make everything harder.

This means, of course, that we can ignore Alderaan's destruction because, by then, the Republic doesnt exist anymore anyway.

As for the Rebelion, i was thinking either Yavin IV, which i favour, or Dantooine, which has the added benefit of never being seen, and hence we can do whatever we want to it and cant be wrong.

swphreak 02-19-2004 10:39 AM

Dantooine may have not been "seen," but it has been discribe in a few EU Books and in the NJO. I'd use those to "fill up Dantoine." It is a forest/swampish world, with the primative Dantarii (spelling may be off, using memory). So you can't just "make it up" and it'll work.

Darth Windu 02-19-2004 11:50 AM

Phreak - i disagree. Other Lucasarts games have ignored EU and still been popular, and really, i dont think it's going to matter if we take liberties with Dantooine (if used) or Alderaan, considering the surface of neither has been seen in the films.

swphreak 02-19-2004 12:49 PM

That may be so, but I will know it's wrong and always insult it.

For example, in GB, "Kashyyyk" apparently had a ground. When in fact, the Wookiees live in the giant Wroshyr trees kilometers above the planet's true surface. It's too dark and dangerous to travel to the actual surface of the planet.

lukeiamyourdad 02-19-2004 07:58 PM

Well it would be weird if the troopers fought on the trees. Maybe on platforms but that wasn't doable with the engine.

Still, Bioware obviously ignored your description of Dantoine showing it in KotOR as a huge savannah, not a swamp.

swphreak 02-19-2004 11:11 PM

It wasn't completely covered with swamps. Also, Kotor was 20,000 or so years before ANH. A lot happenes in 20,000 years

lukeiamyourdad 02-20-2004 01:30 AM

Good point.

Darth Windu 02-20-2004 06:05 AM

Phreak - well, in relation to Kashyyyk and Dantooine, we have to look at it two ways.

1. We have 'seen' the planets in games, and they are therefore better than book descriptions.

2. The levels have to be playable. How are we going to use AT-AT's on Kashyyk? Make them use platforms and bridges?

swphreak 02-20-2004 10:32 AM

I guess you can't use AT-ATs on Kashyyyk. The platforms are big enough for AT-STs though. And other small vehicles. The Empire mostly had storm troopers there from the local base. I guess on kashyyyk, the Imperials would have to be a bit more strategic, and use more TIEs. Wookiees don't have much in the way of tanks or ground assault vehicles, and they have some starfighters. In YJK, when the Shadow Acadamy assaulted Kashyyyk, they had to disable the orbiting gun platforms.

Darth Windu 02-21-2004 04:26 AM

Well as i said, the levels have to be playable, and for ground combat, platforms wont be enough. Add that to the fact that we saw the ground of Kashyyyk in SWGB and it wouldnt make any sense to go along with the books.

lukeiamyourdad 02-21-2004 03:50 PM

We'll see how ep3 portrays Kashyyyk...

Sithmaster_821 02-26-2004 09:58 PM

Why did I vote no? Three reasons:

One, too many civs. Playable or not, that's still info you must store and use, 3-d models that must be made, etc. Unless you own a supercomputer Windu, I can't see how you think that your ideas are gonna work. And I thought having Windu's ten (or eight or whatever) completely unique civs was going to be taxing, but now he adds sub-civs (essentially new civs), as well as a multitude of non-playable ones, thats going overboard. Better solution: going the trandoshan route in SWGB. Give a handful of editor only units and buildings to a certain civ, and they get to play pretend.

Two: Why the bonuses? Is it because RoN did it (not to get ahead of myself, but this is number three)? All this causes is it to be quite hard early on, when you have no bonuses, and veyr easy later when all of the planets have consolidated underneath you. Isnt that counterintuitive for a campaign? I know Windu that you are going to say that it makes it more realistic, that a large government would have a huge advantage over a puny planet in real life, but, guess what, this is a game, and primary objetcive is to have fun, not to be blown out of the water, or mindlessly kill weaklings.

Three: Ummmm.......Can you say blatant ripoff? Come on. The whole idea is that we are trying to be original, because the lack thereof hindered our current game's sales and following, and the only things you suggest is "lets go and make a SW mod for RoN/C&C:G". Its shooting yourself in the foot.

Darth Windu 02-27-2004 07:32 AM

Sith -
1. These minor civs would NOT include the same number of units or bonus' that the playable civs get. The whole point of having them is so that there is a more realistic and fun 'feel' to the Conquer the Galaxy campaign. This was basically one of my gripes in terms of RoN in that the 'barbarians' you took uncliamed lands from were exactly the same as each other.

2. To realistically portray the Star Wars universe, to provide motives for attacking different planets, and to reward those players who are more aggressive in terms of expansion. There is no doubt that a player who controls most of the map is the most powerful, but that doesnt mean they are undefeatable either. This can also work well in Empire vs Rebels senario's.

3. Read the first two points.

BTW thought i might just add that not every planet would have a minor civ. Some would be 'colonies' of other worlds, and also there would be pretty much a single human minor civ to cover worlds like Corellia, Alderaan (if it isnt the Republic homewolrd) etc.

Sithmaster_821 02-28-2004 12:51 AM

1. Windu, I think its telling you something when RoN had to cut corners with the CTW scenerio. They had generic unit sets, so all they would have needed to do was slap on a new skin, and change a name here or there, and they still didn't do it either. Not to mention that they had to cut corners graphically just to make the game run smooth (faux 3d anyone?)

2. Umm...Windu, when I predict that you will say somethingand counter it, don't go ahead and sya it for the hell of it.

3. How did your other responses talk about blatant mimicry?

Darth Windu 02-28-2004 01:02 AM

Sith -
1. RoN also has 18 nations, bringing that up to 24 in the expansion pack, compared to my 8. There are also more units and different gameplay. In terms of graphics, i really dont see anything wrong with them.

2. So you think you can deny me the use of an argument? Let's live in the real world sith. Thats like saying 'i think speed camera's are bad and you cant say they're good because they punish those who break the law' - its just plain stupid.

3. They explained that it isnt blatant mimicry.

Sithmaster_821 02-28-2004 09:40 PM

1. 18 (or 24) civs that are exactly the same, aside from a handful of UUs and bonuses (which don't take much comp space). They can pop these babies out without taxing the CPU at all. The only limit to civ size in games like AoK and RoN is balance. However, you want 8 civs with completely unique unit sets and building sets, with 3 variations each, and on top of that, a bunch more non-playable civs, which will also have unique unit sets, or atleast a generic set different from all the other games. That's double the number of the next highest games (WC3, AoM), plus additional civs and variations, and, if those other games can barely run on people's computers with good graphics, how do you think yours will fair.

2. What I said was that you didn't refute the arguement I posted there, just went on saying what I said you would say without addressing my counter.

3. You have not addressed this. Reread your freaking post. Not once do you say, "My ideas are dramatically different from RoN or C&C because...". Thats cause they aren't.


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