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-   -   Is Hoth unbalanced? (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=136591)

Iceman_IX 09-24-2004 09:16 AM

Is Hoth unbalanced?
 
Anyone ever see the Rebels win on Hoth? I know they lose in "reality" but I have played 2 full rounds on Hoth and a few near-full rounds. Every single time the Imperials have decimated the Rebels. The AT-ATs are dominant (there are 2 of them max I think. One would be too few) and people don't know how to use the Speeders. But anytime they get close, I generally rocket the speeders. They seem to die in ~2 hits. And AT-ATs slaughter infantry (there aren't any other targets they can hit) so the speeders have no support.

Is it just that so many people don't know how to use the Speeders and they don't have infantry support or is the map generally unbalanced? Maybe the Rebels should have some gian speeders and/or X-Wings/Y-Wings to use as well. But not too many :)

Or have my experiences been extraordinary?

sidenote: I find that continuing play for long periods of time is tough because you get dropped from servers so often and the mechanism is that you have to relog onto the server every time you complete a round, resulting in a lot of cooldown where you aren't playing.

Vezner 09-24-2004 09:19 AM

If the rebels have good teamwork, I have seen them win. Concentrated cannon fire, along with good speeder pilots, can bring those ATATs down. The trick is to have some soldiers provide cover for the cannon users and speeders. They are very vulnerable to imperial infantry without having some kind of body guards hanging around.

=HR=Meltdown 09-24-2004 09:26 AM

Yeah, I've seen rebs win many times, you just have to use Teamwork and keep those AT-ATs and AT-STs down. It's just alot harder because the Imps CAN bum rush and not really worry about much, but the rebs have to actually work together.

{DeV}Plasma 09-24-2004 09:36 AM

yea, i've won many times on the Rebal side. But i also have clan members on their and using voice chat. basically ,we take out the AT-At's and AT-St's and provide cover while other team m8's capture the spawns.

avonnied 09-24-2004 09:48 AM

many people don't realize how vulnerable the At-Ats are to the SnowSpeeders..

a single snow speeder can easily take out both At-Ats if they are undefended..

the At-Ats are strong only if they have a good support team..

most people will just jump in the snow speeder and try and gun the At-Ats down with the main guns.. what they don't realize is they are not really doing any damage.


also 3 Rebels with rocket launchers can easily take down an AtAt before it reaches the first marker....

as a rule of thumb.. never judge a teams strength or weakness based off of a public game... 90% of the tiem little or no team work is present in those situations..

Iceman_IX 09-24-2004 09:55 AM

Quote:

as a rule of thumb.. never judge a teams strength or weakness based off of a public game... 90% of the tiem little or no team work is present in those situations..
Well no duh. But if the Imperials use as much teamwork the Rebels are gonna be at a marked disadvantage. I just wanted to see if people have been seeing the same consistency of Imp domination or if the Rebels have a chance even in normal melees.

arachon 09-24-2004 10:29 AM

What do you mean with dont nknow how to use snowspeeders it's easy just get to the AT-AT fire the tow cable and spin around some laps and the getta hell out of there. (i know its dificult but practise)

:sspeeder:

:atat:

mrdinardo 09-24-2004 10:36 AM

I've had TONS of practice against AT-Ats in Shadows of the Empire, and the mechanics are essentially the same. But when you first hop into the speeder, make sure you use the Pile In command to get a gunner. If you don't have a gunner it's hard to fire the tow cables.

I would use the speeder on hoth, take down the AT-AT's, clear out the AT-ST's then provide some more support for your ground troops until more AT-ATs or AT-STs repsawn.

And use the caves inside echo base, there is a base that has a cave which leads to Echo Base, if you lose that base then you essentially lose the war since you lose your Speeders.

GhostPoet 09-24-2004 11:29 AM

I was playing Imperial last night on Hoth and we lost 3 out of 4 times...the Rebel team took out our AT AT's with tow cables as fast as they could...

Mountainforest 09-24-2004 11:38 AM

Just give the people some time to practice with snowspeeders.

Talus 09-24-2004 12:45 PM

Exactly..with practice, the game balance should be easier to scrutinize. Right now, everyone is a n00b! :D

Vader's_Punishe 09-24-2004 12:46 PM

I'm getting pretty good with speeder. When I have a gunner I take AT-AT down no problem. What I have problems with is the AT-ST. I shoot at them with the cannons but they are almost as invurnable as the AT AT. I aim for the back of their heads and always throttle down to get in as many shots as possible. Should I be aiming else where?
.
Had a good fight with an AT-ST today at its spawn though. I did I strafing run on it when I first saw it and when I turned the speeder around, it was turned around shooting at me, so I did another run. This proceded for several minutes before he got tired of it.

Stalkerh 09-24-2004 01:07 PM

I always love playing as Rebs on Hoth.. because Rebs have the potential to ALWAYS win.

First off, Snowspeeders pwn. Hardcore. If 1-2 go after the walkers, the rest can strafe enemy troops and turrets and generally screw things up.

I usually spawn as a pilot in the snowspeeder hangar. I typically wait till I see a bot spawn, order it to follow me, then I jump in a speeder (and the bot jumps in the back). Then what I do is fly towards the nearest AT-AT, let the bot spear the leg, and then I fly around and around till it drops :) Rinse, repeat, and strafe when no walkers are available to kill ;)

Snowspeeder blasters do minimal damage to walker vehicles (including AT-STs). I've found that if an AT-ST is already smoking, I can usually finish it off... otherwise it's pretty pointless to shoot it.

Of course, that may be because there was a pilot driving those AT-STs most of the time... but I donno :P

OldIronsides 09-24-2004 01:42 PM

snowspeeders
 
I am really worried the empire will start getting their butts handed to them.

After only a few days out, people have figured out how to fly the speeders already. There is very little that can shoot a guy down who knows what he's doing. The thing can go very very slow to fire the cable, strafe troops,...and then speed up real fast as needbe. The going from fast to slow is crazy quick...so it makes it really tough to target a speeder pilot who knows what he's doing.

I have yet to figure out what on the battlefield can shoot a speeder down. The Empire has no air power themselves, and the groundbased targets track way to slow to shoot a speeder.

I think it is all balanced really well, but the Empire is in deep doodoo if I'm right abou the speeders.

And what benefit does the Empire receive from blowing up the shield generator? Is the shield generator a spawn point you lose or something once it blows up???? I'd love to know that

OldIronsides 09-24-2004 01:42 PM

snowspeeders
 
Sorry, I meant to add....good games like this always have a counter tactic. Clearly if I'm right about the speeders eventually being uber powerful, then the Empire simply needs to put the emphasis on taking Echo base..or simply stealing their planes.

You could steal one, land it way in the back and just sit there...boring but vEry very effective.

I doubt the speeder will respawn as long as it occupied and stolen..it might not even have to be occupied...go hide in the hills somewhere
:-)

dead_ox 09-24-2004 04:16 PM

Submit to the power of the darkside!
 
Here's a suggestion... Join the Empire! Everyone nows they r0x0r!!!

ultra.Antihero 09-24-2004 04:19 PM

I've played 4 rounds as rebels and imps, but every time the rebels win lol.

avonnied 09-24-2004 04:43 PM

OIS,

the only way to take the speeder down effectively is with the Rocket Launcher.

the empire tactic should basically be.. 2 At At s and at least 2 Rocket guys with each.. without rocket support the At-Ats wont' make it very far..

Although the counter to the rocket is speed.. the speeder can outrun the rockets at full speed.. So the speeder needs to get in and get out quickly...

it will probably come down to a game of cat and mouse.. can teh speeder get in and get the tow rope around fast enough before the rocket support can take him down..

probably the best tactic for the rebels is to send 2 ships after 1 At-At.. if 1 gets shot down there is still a very good chance the 2nd one will finish.. and considering how fast the Speeders spawn they should always be able to keep pressure on them.

Azurik12x 09-24-2004 05:09 PM

I win a lot on Hoth as rebels. I pick Rebel pilot and get someone in the harpoon while i pilot the snowspeeder and we go take down the ATAT's. Once done with that we shoot troops and ATST's then when more ATAT's spawn we take those down. its easy.

Cormix 09-24-2004 05:33 PM

Ive won with the rebels some but not alot I use missle launcher and mines alot to do damage to ATATs and ATSTs .It also seems Im the only one in the game that uses mines ,I havent seen anyone else using em .They to pretty good damage too.If your wandering how I lay mines by an ATAT or ATST without getting killed ,I fly a snowspeeder and land beside em or I ride a tauntaun up beside em then get off and start throwing down mines.

OldIronsides 09-24-2004 08:33 PM

rocket dudes
 
Hey Avonneid,

I don't recognize your name but you must know me since you called my OIS.. :-()

Man, I completely forgot about the rockets being able to lock onto a target....a la BFV. I've been shooting the rockets directly in an infantry's face for the most part. I'm usually grenade launcher dude, cause I couldn't hit anything before the servers starting unlocking the FPS.

This is part of what I love about this game. You could spend a LOT of time Just getting good with the rocket things, or learning to fly those weird controls...or killing ewoks...lol...or etc etc..

sodan 09-25-2004 01:14 AM

Yeah, I do think Hoth is unbalanced toward the rebs. I'm pretty good with the snowspeeders and taking down the AT-ATs but if I'm occupied doing that, the reb CPs get overun.

Not sure what the point is in destroying that bunker for the imps anyway.

I still have fun playing the mission even though the rebs always win.

Isaiah 09-28-2004 03:56 AM

I guess the solution then is for the empire to stage a coordinated assult on the rebel hanger bay and shoot down the speeders with rockets. Without those speeders it significantly reduces their chances of winning. Or Let the AI control the AT-ATs leaving the human players to stage the real assault :)

As an aside I wonder what the quickest time the rebels can win is. I've won 20 seconds after taking down both empire walkers as they had their other base already taken. Total time was roughly 3 minutes :) (my first practice run with the speeder)

NCIceman 09-28-2004 06:36 AM

Somebody hit the nail on the head, there needs to be a POINT to blowing the shield generators, and blowing the bunker on Endor. I think it's supposed to deny the enemy a spawn.

Hoth isn't the unwinnable Hoth map I have an issue with, there's the other map on Hoth with AT-AT and the temple looking base where there AREN'T snowspeeders where I see the rebels get stomped and camped every time....THAT map needs work.

chrishaolin 09-28-2004 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sodan
Yeah, I do think Hoth is unbalanced toward the rebs. I'm pretty good with the snowspeeders and taking down the AT-ATs but if I'm occupied doing that, the reb CPs get overun.

Not sure what the point is in destroying that bunker for the imps anyway.

I still have fun playing the mission even though the rebs always win.

think i played with you last night.. i played as "smell my finger"

anyway, as long as there is some semblance of teamplay on the rebels part, the rebels have a good chance on hoth.

chrishaolin 09-28-2004 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Isaiah
Or Let the AI control the AT-ATs leaving the human players to stage the real assault :)

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. imagine the backlash from the swbf community? :swear:

superdude201 09-28-2004 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by NCIceman
Somebody hit the nail on the head, there needs to be a POINT to blowing the shield generators, and blowing the bunker on Endor. I think it's supposed to deny the enemy a spawn.

Hoth isn't the unwinnable Hoth map I have an issue with, there's the other map on Hoth with AT-AT and the temple looking base where there AREN'T snowspeeders where I see the rebels get stomped and camped every time....THAT map needs work.

The reason for doing it was cause they tried doing it in the films, Endor was because they wanted the shield down on the death star and on the empire strikes back they needed to destroy the shield generator as it was strong enough to protect the echo base from any bombardment. On endor (on x-box demo anyway :P) once the bunker is blown up the number of imperials allowed to die decreases constantly till it gets to 0.

Master William 09-28-2004 08:42 AM

I can take them out... all you need is someone who is good at flying or harpooning (or whatever) and it's a piece of cake. But if they got good support you're gonna have a hard time

sodan 09-28-2004 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by chrishaolin
think i played with you last night.. i played as "smell my finger"

anyway, as long as there is some semblance of teamplay on the rebels part, the rebels have a good chance on hoth.

Hey, Smell, I played you last night. Lots of fun! But the Hoth battle I played in was WAY out of balance. Even with my non-stop sniping the imps took over then proceeded to camp the remaining reb Command Points till the end.

That one sucked, but there lots of good ones.

chrishaolin 09-28-2004 10:12 AM

hahaha
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sodan
Hey, Smell, I played you last night. Lots of fun! But the Hoth battle I played in was WAY out of balance. Even with my non-stop sniping the imps took over then proceeded to camp the remaining reb Command Points till the end.

That one sucked, but there lots of good ones.

lol, you can call me chris. ;) that was a great server gonna get back on there tonight hopefully.. i was hoping to play bespin platforms but that didnt seem to be in the rotation i guess?
good playing with ya though!

Darth Chuckles 09-28-2004 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by NCIceman
Somebody hit the nail on the head, there needs to be a POINT to blowing the shield generators, and blowing the bunker on Endor. I think it's supposed to deny the enemy a spawn.

Hoth isn't the unwinnable Hoth map I have an issue with, there's the other map on Hoth with AT-AT and the temple looking base where there AREN'T snowspeeders where I see the rebels get stomped and camped every time....THAT map needs work.

hello... land mines anyone?

sodan 09-28-2004 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by NCIceman
Somebody hit the nail on the head, there needs to be a POINT to blowing the shield generators, and blowing the bunker on Endor. I think it's supposed to deny the enemy a spawn.

It denies the rebs a spawn point and also diminishes thier reinforcements.

Skellington 09-28-2004 10:54 AM

Weird, I actually have a complaint the OTHER way, every time I play the rebels kick the living **** out of the empire. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.

sodan 09-28-2004 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skellington
Weird, I actually have a complaint the OTHER way, every time I play the rebels kick the living **** out of the empire. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
That's odd. I ahve only won as the rebs when my teammates and I co-op against the imps.

LoQ 09-28-2004 03:26 PM

Considering that the rate of fire for the AT-AT's are very sluggish, AND the fact that they are slow moving, it doesn't take a whole lot of effort to bring them down. All that is needed is simply for TWO people to work together by hopping in the same snow speeder and attaching the tow cable to the legs of a walker. Seven out of ten times you will be able to bring them down without getting shot down or crashing. That's not much to ask for.

Of course if you don't work together, then it will be much harder. After all the Empire is favored on this map. But that is the way I like it!

sodan 09-28-2004 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LoQ
Considering that the rate of fire for the AT-AT's are very sluggish, AND the fact that they are slow moving, it doesn't take a whole lot of effort to bring them down. All that is needed is simply for TWO people to work together by hopping in the same snow speeder and attaching the tow cable to the legs of a walker. Seven out of ten times you will be able to bring them down without getting shot down or crashing. That's not much to ask for.

Of course if you don't work together, then it will be much harder. After all the Empire is favored on this map. But that is the way I like it!

You don't need two players. All you need is a pilot and a bot in the back seat. On the PC game, put the snowspeeder down next to a rebel bot and hit F2 (the "follow" command) and the bot will jump in and take care of the cable while you pilot.

Taking down AT-ATs is easy enough. My problem is that when I am focusing on the AT-ATs, the rebs on the ground get overrun and we loose command points.

LoQ 09-28-2004 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sodan
You don't need two players. All you need is a pilot and a bot in the back seat. On the PC game, put the snowspeeder down next to a rebel bot and hit F2 (the "follow" command) and the bot will jump in and take care of the cable while you pilot.
Wow I had no idea!!!! THanks a bunch. Man I was doing it the hard way too when I didn't have someone manning the harpoon. I was switching views, which is nearly impossible to pull off! thanks again!!!!!!:D

Isaiah 09-29-2004 12:14 AM

Yea I'd definatly go with using the bots to fire the cables. All you need to do is fly round the AT-AT legs and the bot will fire the cable automaticaly when needed. Works a treat, and stops them being used as cannon fodder anyway.

Also, having sat in the cable position last night anyway it's kind of boring as there's not much else you can do. I'd rather let a bot do that job than be sat in there myself.
The only fun bit was chatting to the pilot while we were doing it (Xbox). But then the voice chat significantly enhances the game anyway ... if you can find anyone that talks and uses teamwork that is :)

xXx-Tricky-xXx 09-29-2004 06:01 AM

where do you get mines from

all i have is grenades

Sam Fisher 09-29-2004 06:08 AM

The reason I can't use the speeders well is that the friggan controls are sluggish, and they are inverted....!


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