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-   -   Was Dooku Yoda's Apprentice? (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=138010)

Shok_Tinoktin 10-10-2004 12:29 AM

Was Dooku Yoda's Apprentice?
 
In AOTC, Yoda refers to Dooku as "My old padawan". Did he just mean this because he was a student at the temple, or did he take him on as an apprentice?

RedHawke 10-10-2004 03:28 AM

I believe (Read: It was inferred in EP2);

Dooku was Yoda's apprentice... like Qui-gon was Dooku's... and Obi-Wan was Qui-Gon's... and Aniken was Obi-Wan's. Hmm... with that Jedi lineage no wonder Aniken was doomed! :D

Shok_Tinoktin 10-12-2004 02:19 AM

that was my assumption as well. However, when discussing it with other people, it didnt seem to be so clear. I hope he was though, so if I get no better answer, im sticking to that.

Lieutenant_kettch 10-12-2004 08:23 AM

i have to agree with redhawke on this, it does seem more logical and present that he was actually yodas apprentice.
The only way anakin was doomed though is that he was not smart in his sith ways, he could have been unstoppable, *sigh*, stupid people and the consciences

Shok_Tinoktin 10-14-2004 02:11 PM

I have just seen in the Dark Horse comic Jedi:Yoda, that Dooku is was in fact, Yoda's apprentice. That's proof enough for me.

Lieutenant_kettch 10-14-2004 02:44 PM

is that an official item, or is it similar to the GODV hexology(ehh?)

Shok_Tinoktin 10-14-2004 02:50 PM

The GODV hexology was before the idea of all the EU working together and being a single continuous story. The comic came out in June or July. When it comes to EU, the comic is about as official as most anything else (although it is not too late for GL to change that in ROTS). As far as I'm concerned, it is more than conjecture, and has in some way or another been approved by Lucas, I am satisfied to accept it as fact.

Nairb Notneb 11-07-2004 05:48 PM

I had never questioned Dooku's Padawanship by Yoda. I had always taken it as foreshadowing that a Jedi could fall to the Dark Side, even one that was trained by the master of masters, Yoda. Maybe George through that in so Obi-Wan wouldn't feel so bad about Anakin turning to the Dark side.

RebelScum! 11-08-2004 07:39 AM

WHat about mace? lol did he teach himself?

Nairb Notneb 11-08-2004 10:29 AM

Mace learned on the internet through the Jedi Distance Learning Center Academy.

adillon 11-08-2004 11:17 AM

technically, i think everyone is yoda's padawan at one point or another, if taking the viewpoint that yoda is the only jedi we see teaching the younglings. however, i don't think dooku was that young when he joined the jedi order, so i believe that yoda was his master, much in the same way that qui-gon was obi-wan's.

Nairb Notneb 11-08-2004 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by adillon
technically, i think everyone is yoda's padawan at one point or another, if taking the viewpoint that yoda is the only jedi we see teaching the younglings. however, i don't think dooku was that young when he joined the jedi order, so i believe that yoda was his master, much in the same way that qui-gon was obi-wan's.
Why don't you think Dooku was that young when he joined?

Shok_Tinoktin 11-08-2004 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shok_Tinoktin
I have just seen in the Dark Horse comic Jedi:Yoda, that Dooku is was in fact, Yoda's apprentice. That's proof enough for me.
I looked at it again, and this is not true. I was just skimming the comic and I put some stuff together very innacurately.

Quote:

Originally posted by adillon
technically, i think everyone is yoda's padawan at one point or another, if taking the viewpoint that yoda is the only jedi we see teaching the younglings. however, i don't think dooku was that young when he joined the jedi order, so i believe that yoda was his master, much in the same way that qui-gon was obi-wan's.
That is why I asked if he was his apprentice. He could have been just a padawan at the temple.

Nairb Notneb 11-10-2004 08:48 AM

Now that I think about it, it is a valid question because Obi-Wans ghost told Luke that Yoda was the Jedi Master that "instructed" him. In Yoda's hovel when Luke first meets Yoda, Obi says to Yoda, "was I any different when you first taught me?" Maybe when Yoda was trying to put Dooku in his place before the fight, sort of like saying "I remember when I changed your diapers". Saying that doesn't mean that you were some bodies parents, it just means that you babysat the person possibly when you were a kid, or something. I mean we all know for a fact that Obi's Master was Qui-Gon, but he says that Yoda was his instructor, which from AOTC, Yoda teaches all younglings at some time.

adillon 11-10-2004 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nairb Notneb
Why don't you think Dooku was that young when he joined?
i didn't think so because of his title as count. i thought that when one joined the jedi order, all contact with one's family was cut-off. but the starwars.com databank states:
Quote:

Dooku had studied the ways of the Force for almost eight decades, becoming one of its most powerful practitioners, though his ultimate loyalty was not to the structured protocols of the Jedi order, but rather to his own intuitions and ideals. His strong sense of independence concerned many, and even his mentor, Yoda, had difficulty reining him in.
i thought i had read somewhere that the influence and riches of dooku's family had helped to finance the separatists movement, which seemed contradictory to what the databank states. maybe when dooku left the order he inherited what was his. i dunno ...

Hannibal 11-10-2004 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by adillon

i thought i had read somewhere that the influence and riches of dooku's family had helped to finance the separatists movement, which seemed contradictory to what the databank states. maybe when dooku left the order he inherited what was his. i dunno ...

Dooku (Palpatine actually) used the trade federation and the banking clans to finance the Seperatists. They had money but no armies. He hooked them up with the Geonosians to create the separtist movement.

Kurgan 11-11-2004 08:14 AM

Eight decades = 80 years. Christopher Lee was nearly 80 years old when he played the part of Count Dooku in the movie.

So if his character's age is about 80, then that means he was VERY YOUNG when he joined the Order, probably an infant or toddler like the other Jedi are supposedly when they join.

Commander Dorn9 11-26-2005 11:14 AM

A noble clone trooper
 
Count Dooku was trained by Yoda. Yoda even gives hints that he taught Count Dooku in the jedi arts. Qui Gon was taught by Count Dooku in the jedi arts but most other jedi that became experienced were taught by Master Yoda.
:yobi: :syoda: :yodaball: :saberg: :kiadi: :koon: :joreth:

SirLancelot 11-26-2005 12:08 PM

Yoda has trained Jedi for well over 700 years. May generations of Jedi have been his students.

T10 11-26-2005 03:31 PM

He got the title of count becuase he was the leader of the Seperatists. It was nothing personal, just the political title of their leader. Technically, GG should've become Count Grevious, but nevermind.

Alkonium 11-26-2005 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T10
He got the title of count becuase he was the leader of the Seperatists. It was nothing personal, just the political title of their leader. Technically, GG should've become Count Grevious, but nevermind.

Actually, he got the title of count when he inherited his estate on Serenno.

MachineCult 11-26-2005 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shok_Tinoktin
In AOTC, Yoda refers to Dooku as "My old padawan". Did he just mean this because he was a student at the temple, or did he take him on as an apprentice?

Dooku was Yodas apprentice, thats what a Padawan is. Students at the temple are Younglings until they are 13 and then they are chosen by a Jedi Knight to be their Padawan.

Kurgan 11-30-2005 11:50 PM

If we assume that Yoda isn't just referring to every single "youngling" (which he also refers to as "Padawan" in other instances in both AOTC and ROTS) as his Padawan (Ie: that Dooku was just another of many kids he taught), I wonder...

Who is Yoda's Padawan supposed to be in TPM... in AOTC... in ROTS?

Or does every Jedi Knight/Master need to take a Padawan?

How many Padawans are there? How many little ones does Yoda have to train? (the 8-12 we see in the movies only?)

There's canonically about 10,000 Jedi in the galaxy in the Prequel Era, but I still don't know if that only includes Knight level or above, or also these wannabe trainees.

Do their small numbers mean every Knight has to have a Padawan, or not?

Obi-Wan doesn't seem to have one after Anakin. Mace Windu doesn't seem to have one, etc. Or do they get time off between students?

I can understand them giving classes and whatnot, but the relationship between Qui Gon/Obi-Wan and Obi-Wan/Anakin implies to us that they hang around each other all the time and go on missions together, etc.

Prime 12-01-2005 11:11 AM

According to EU sources, a Jedi does not have to take a padawan, and the rank of master can be achieved without taking one if the Council feels the individual's accomplishments and abilities warrant it. I believe the original Jorus C'baoth was an example of this.

And in ROTS Kenobi implies that the Council would some day soon make Anakin a master (and thus it isn't too important that he isn't made one upon his Council appointment), which would indicate that taking a padawan wasn't technically required. But this would seem to be the exceptional cases. The traditional path is to train a padawan to knighthood.

PoiuyWired 12-01-2005 12:58 PM

Well, there is no saying anywhere that training a Padawan is required before being a Master.

That, and Master does not equal member of the council. A number of Masters are not council member.

Some Masters are quite choicey when it comes to taking a Padawan, while some are less anale about it. Younglings aren't attach to anyone. They are just kids waiting to be chosen as padawan. Oh, and they sizzle well against a red lightsaber.

Brottor 12-01-2005 01:22 PM

I agree with this train of thought. I always thought taking a Padawan was a choice. Masters pretty much do what they like as long as its good by the council. I have a feeling that the 10000 number includes all padawan as well though. Maybe because I always feel that most normal people dont know the difference between master and padawan.

Kurgan 12-01-2005 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prime
According to EU sources, a Jedi does not have to take a padawan, and the rank of master can be achieved without taking one if the Council feels the individual's accomplishments and abilities warrant it. I believe the original Jorus C'baoth was an example of this.

That's cool, but remember C'Boath was created long before we knew anything about the prequels, so he could be retconned. Remember, he was supposed to be a member of the Jedi Council, and we never saw him in all three movies. Though we never saw Sifo Dyias either (Lama Su thought he was a prominent member of the Jedi Council 10 years before AOTC).

Quote:

And in ROTS Kenobi implies that the Council would some day soon make Anakin a master (and thus it isn't too important that he isn't made one upon his Council appointment), which would indicate that taking a padawan wasn't technically required. But this would seem to be the exceptional cases. The traditional path is to train a padawan to knighthood.
Right, well the term "master" implies you have someone under you (what are you "master of" after all? unless it's like a degree, like Bachelor of the Force, Master of the Force, Doctor of the Force, etc). But then it's a bit confusing, because suddenly in ROTS it's also a "Rank" for members of the Jedi Council (Anakin being the exception), plus people call you "Master Jedi" out of respect, regardless of rank (except Padawans I guess).

You're a Padawan, then a Jedi (Knight), and then maybe you could be a Master. Was Qui Gon a Master (the rank apparently didn't exist in the movies yet, but I mean now that we have ROTS)?

There are very few Jedi, and consequently somebody has to train them. I agree, not all Jedi will achieve the rank of Master probably, but Yoda can't train everyone (at least not forever).

Prime 12-02-2005 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurgan
That's cool, but remember C'Boath was created long before we knew anything about the prequels, so he could be retconned.

However, his bio in the Power of the Jedi sourcebook indicates that he had no padawan, and that was written after AOTC. I don't think there was any mention of that fact in the Thrawn trilogy.

hk47 12-19-2005 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedHawke
I believe (Read: It was inferred in EP2);

Dooku was Yoda's apprentice... like Qui-gon was Dooku's... and Obi-Wan was Qui-Gon's... and Aniken was Obi-Wan's. :D

i wonder who was yodas master...

MachineCult 01-06-2006 09:54 AM

Theres undoubtedly an EU answer to that.

Darth_Death 01-06-2006 05:57 PM

knowing that dooku trained Grevous in the jedi arts i wonder how Grevous got started?

MachineCult 01-06-2006 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth_Death
knowing that dooku trained Grevous in the jedi arts i wonder how Grevous got started?

What?

arkodeon 02-08-2006 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurgan
That's cool, but remember C'Boath was created long before we knew anything about the prequels, so he could be retconned. Remember, he was supposed to be a member of the Jedi Council, and we never saw him in all three movies. Though we never saw Sifo Dyias either (Lama Su thought he was a prominent member of the Jedi Council 10 years before AOTC).



Right, well the term "master" implies you have someone under you (what are you "master of" after all? unless it's like a degree, like Bachelor of the Force, Master of the Force, Doctor of the Force, etc). But then it's a bit confusing, because suddenly in ROTS it's also a "Rank" for members of the Jedi Council (Anakin being the exception), plus people call you "Master Jedi" out of respect, regardless of rank (except Padawans I guess).

You're a Padawan, then a Jedi (Knight), and then maybe you could be a Master. Was Qui Gon a Master (the rank apparently didn't exist in the movies yet, but I mean now that we have ROTS)?

There are very few Jedi, and consequently somebody has to train them. I agree, not all Jedi will achieve the rank of Master probably, but Yoda can't train everyone (at least not forever).

Wow, that's incredibly confusing.

Masters can be Masters without sitting on the Council; They were, for a lack of a better way to put it, 'Doctors' of the Force, much in the same way that you may earn a Doctorate in Science, etc. etc. (Not doctor's as in..."Get me 3 miligrams of whatever, stat."); Qui-Gon was a Jedi Master, according to the Star Wars databank, but because of his unorthodox methods, he was not granted a seat on the Council; technically, all Jedi may and will ascend into Masterhood, save for their a) untimely death, b) lack of action, c) inability to find a Knight as a Padawan. Remember, Younglings who were not placed into the care of a Jedi Knight were transfered to 'Corps.' (I.E. Agricultural Corps.)

A Jedi Master is a rank above Jedi Knight. Jedi Knight is a colloquial term for all of the Jedi. Padawan is a learner. Jedi Knight, the rank, is an 'Agent' of the Force. So on, so forth.

Damn, Jedi are confusing. ):

Kurgan 02-13-2006 01:25 AM

Ah, but if you're on the Council, you're a Master, by default, but they made the exception with Anakin, which is why he got pissed.

Kurgan 02-13-2006 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MachineCult
What?

His history is explaind in the Visual Dictionary and (I think) Labyrinth of Evil (which I haven't read and don't really plan to). He was "trained in the Jedi arts" meaning he was taught how to fight with Lightsabers and some tips on what a Jedi might do in combat... all by Count Dooku. But Grievous was not force sensitive. He was not a Jedi or Sith. Dooku just gave him some saber lessons, basically. The Clone Wars series also picks up on that idea, and shows them sparring.

Prime 02-13-2006 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurgan
But Grievous was not force sensitive. He was not a Jedi or Sith. Dooku just gave him some saber lessons, basically. The Clone Wars series also picks up on that idea, and shows them sparring.

Also note that Grievous does not attempt to block blaster bolts.

Nedak 02-13-2006 10:56 PM

Where in the movies and books did it say that Dooku was Qui-Gons master?

Kurgan 02-13-2006 11:52 PM

Grievous doesn't attempt to block blaster bolts in the movie, true, but then you could argue the only time he was being directly fired upon he didn't have his sabers...

Given his speed and such, in CW, I don't see why he couldn't have just spun his sabers like a "shield" to block the bolts. They give us the impression that he's just mechanically obeying Dooku's admonition to "retreat" rather than attack. I think they threw that in there because had built up Grievous to be this fearless unstoppable combat monster who kills Jedi Masters with ease. Then they find out RoTS is going to have him as a coughing coward who doesn't directly kill anybody (except maybe a few Clone Troopers he runs over in that jallopy of his) so they introduce this to try to explain the change.

Quote:

Where in the movies and books did it say that Dooku was Qui-Gons master?
In AOTC when Obi-Wan is being held prisoner, Dooku says (iirc) "You forget, I was once his master as he was your's," something along those lines anyway. But yeah, Yoda taught Dooku. Dooku taught Qui Gon Jinn. Qui Gon taught Obi-Wan Kenobi. Obi-Wan taught Anakin, then Luke. According to the movies...

MachineCult 02-14-2006 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by han sala
Where in the movies and books did it say that Dooku was Qui-Gons master?

I'm sorry Sally but jesus everyone knows that it's mentioned alot in EU and at a crucial scene in the AOTC like Kurgan said.

Prime 02-14-2006 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurgan
Grievous doesn't attempt to block blaster bolts in the movie, true, but then you could argue the only time he was being directly fired upon he didn't have his sabers...

In the last episode of CW season one he dodges all the fire from the clones without making any attempt to block it...


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