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-   -   SW: Next RTS: Military (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=141006)

FroZticles 12-05-2004 02:16 AM

SW: Next RTS: Military
 
I made this thread just to start a conversation about what us forum junkies would love to see in the next RTS gameplay wise.

Many of the new RTS are not thinking the military a hundreds of singles of units but as batallions. I love this format and would love if they used it.

Pop Limit is another big issue with graphics being updated with every new game and the boundaries of computers being stretched. You are seeing you are commanding smaller and smaller armies. The new SW RTS needs to find a balance between something that looks great on screen but does not take that epic feel when you have hundreds of clones or droids fighting at your side.

Just some things I wanted to throw out there....

swphreak 12-05-2004 08:12 AM

I want unit sizes to be right. ATATs must tower over tanks and soldiers.

As for poplimit. Meh, 250 seems to be working... but with today's technology, it could probbaly be doubled.

saberhagen 12-05-2004 09:10 AM

I'd rather have a bigger pop cap than have nice graphics. As long as the graphics are functional I'm happy, but I realise that the rest fo the market is against me there, so it's not going to happen.

otoh it is possible for the game to get too big. I've tried playing Cossacks, and even with the ability to organise your troops into battalions, it does my head in. I think that's also partly because of the overcomplicated resource system (no-one needs 6 resources!) and tedious upgrade paths, and the significant but hard to remember differences between the civs, but the sheer scale of the game always bewildered me.

Darth Windu 12-05-2004 03:47 PM

Well in terms of pop cap and whatnot, it depends on the sort of scale you want. For example, I was given 'Medieval: Total War' for my birthday, and in that you can have 10,000 soldiers in one battle. But on a scale such as in SW: GBG it would be impossible.

Frankly, i would prefer a scale a big bigger than GBG, sort of a RoN scale, but also have the ability to fight inside cities in campaigns, like GBG.

DK_Viceroy 12-06-2004 04:59 AM

I'd like a vairable Pop limit that could essentially be open ended you'd just have to invest in whatever form of Pop creators that side might have since I doubt they'll be sticking with pre-fabs for the Confederacy they might have something like Control points where Control Points equates to how much computing power you have to operate droids. you could also pick Max pop in games that would be best like we have now really except with larger pop caps maybe 30 000.

lukeiamyourdad 12-06-2004 02:54 PM

You can field thousands of units in Rome:Total War. I don't see how we couldn't do the same.

FroZticles 12-06-2004 05:42 PM

I feel they are minimising the economy in most new RTS to make for a more military scale game which is what its all about. I feel that for there to be tens of thousands of units graphics would have to be really basic and not detailed that much at all.

DK_Viceroy 12-06-2004 09:40 PM

well they should only be detailed if you zoom in and Economy shouldn't be simplified ala BFME it's a bad idea.

Darth Windu 12-06-2004 11:49 PM

Well i agree with the simplified economy and more focus on military - after all, that is what my template is based on and you all attacked.

Anyway, it should definately be a smaller scale then the 'Total War' series, although a few thousand clones fighting a few thousand battle droids would be cool. I still think a scale a bit larger (more epic) than GBG would be ideal.

DK_Viceroy 12-07-2004 12:25 AM

We all attacked it for good reason. It was the template that most resembled a Frankenstein in the entire forum's since it was completly made up of elements "borrowed" from other RTS's.

Economy shouldn't be simplified it should have more depth to it so that you need more skill to master the game effectively.

It should be on an epic scale perhaps with a pop limit above 30 000

FroZticles 12-07-2004 12:34 AM

30,000 is way to much I was thinking 500-1000. I don't want super scale battles for a 30k pop limit, battalions would be 100 or more and could you imagine the lag!!! Could you try and micro those armies cause I sure as hell couldn't.

DK_Viceroy 12-07-2004 12:37 AM

yeah but you could slect that Maximum pop limit for beter performance while 30 000 being the maximum.

Try Empires dawn of the Modern World and you'll see that works pretty well with that sort of limit and you could get Micro done you'd just have to gut the hand of Ctrl+ number for teams

FroZticles 12-07-2004 12:44 AM

Empires is dead even more dead than SWGB it died quicker and only lasted about 2 months online. I think the same storyline and game concept really killed this game. Now its nothing but a dust collector in many RTS fans rooms.

DK_Viceroy 12-07-2004 03:56 AM

But it did have some good Ideas like wonders actually being useful apart from victory conditions and such a huge pop limit.

Darth Windu 12-08-2004 12:20 AM

In this case, i agree with FroZ. The pop cap shouldnt be any more than 1000, and 500 would be much better. The way to give a more 'epic' feel is to use the RoN system of having each infantry unit represented by three 'icons'.

DK_Viceroy 12-08-2004 01:05 AM

please explain this system for those who read RoN was craptacular and didn't bother buying it.

I think we should do away with a pop cap and have it similar to Generals in that respect.

lukeiamyourdad 12-08-2004 08:56 AM

Yes and having it in pseudo 3D like RoN.

Yay...

Infantry units are now built in squads. We could have squads that move as one. Pop cap could still be 500, each infantry unit in the squd representing 1 pop.

DK_Viceroy 12-08-2004 09:26 AM

I'm personally against the idea of squads but I will concde it fits perfectly into the Star Wars Universe however all infantry shouldn't be built int squads since Commando's require Micro and Squads to my knowledge eliminate most of this.

I think there should be a pop cap of at least 5,000

lukeiamyourdad 12-08-2004 09:31 AM

Not really. You can have a commando of several different units and have them individually selectable.

For large scale battles with huge armies, squads are the way to go. It can get quite chaotic and squads help partly reduce the microing in those situations.

DK_Viceroy 12-08-2004 10:54 AM

I already said that I concede that they would work Perfectly for the star wars universe so I'm not debating it, I just never really liked the idea of squads in the sense that it can only be controlled as a unit not controlling what makes up the unit.

General Nitro 12-08-2004 03:48 PM

I'd like to be able to build citites (or in this case, bases) kinda like in RoN. I'd also like to have political/military units such as govenors, generals, and such. I'd like to be able to add customizations to my civ. Let me explain. By making my own custom design or whatever, I can then place it on the side of my units. A totally uneccasary yet neat option. I too would like batalions. I'd also, somehow, like to have a bit more attachment to my troops. For example, instead of sending them in to die like slaves, I'd rather they improve with battle and help out your civ by bonuses and such. To prevent people abusing the bonuses, I'd like to see some kind of method, perhaps "battle mode", when your civ is in battle. Note: the civ is kinda constantly at war, hence you fight a war one battle at a time. My ideas my be shotty, as usual, but I like them. You may begin critizing, flaming, attacking, and destroying my post now.

FroZticles 12-08-2004 05:41 PM

I guess you could have some of those spanning over a few games.....

DK_Viceroy 12-08-2004 11:21 PM

I don't think a political side should come into this maybe in an RTS that focuses mainly on space while the one we're hoping for will be focusing on ground with consdierable space elements.

It's a good idea but it'd propably work best on a satr warsy version of Imperium Galactica 2

Darth Windu 12-09-2004 04:44 AM

I disagree about cities and whatnot. Star Wars really isnt about city building, but combat. RoN has city building precisely because your are supposed to be building a 'Nation', which is not the same as in a Star Wars RTS.

DK_Viceroy 12-09-2004 06:34 AM

Did you ACTUALLY bother to PROPERLY read his post he said in this case BASES not cities.

lukeiamyourdad 12-09-2004 08:57 AM

Cities, bases, ketchup, catsup.

It makes no difference, giving it a different name changes nothing. Windu is right.
Even some kind of "base" building wouldn't make much sense.

In RoN it made a whole lot of sense. If the new RTS was about specific species(Naboo, Gungans, Wookiees, Sullustans, etc.) trying to colonize a planet or whatever, this would work but the goal of the Republic, Confederacy, Empire and Rebel Alliance is to wipe out the opponent.

DK_Viceroy 12-09-2004 09:32 AM

I would like more Econ Management in the next SW RTS and for that you have to have a base or do you want a similar system to Force Commander?

lukeiamyourdad 12-09-2004 09:37 AM

::

What he wants is a City/Base.

Who ever said anything about not having a base at all?

What I'm against is a Base/City la RoN.

DK_Viceroy 12-09-2004 10:15 AM

I thought you were against Bases lala GB

General Nitro 12-09-2004 04:06 PM

We already have bases now, usually one giant base. I'd like the new RTS to have some sort of Base system. All armies need bases, not just one giant blob of a base.

FroZticles 12-09-2004 05:47 PM

So you want a bunch of small bases over the map?

General Nitro 12-09-2004 05:49 PM

Why not? They don't neccasarily have to be small.

FroZticles 12-09-2004 05:53 PM

Well I like large bases and I don't know why a military force would scatter there forces into small little bases. They could have base secure points where you build small forward bases on the platform to launch assults from different locations.

DK_Viceroy 12-09-2004 10:49 PM

Don't wheel in any ideas from BFME the game has been certified as a flop compared to expectations and from the sounds of things the plot system is not remotely Star Wars.

Darth Vader : Commander why have you not built your base where I told you to!

Commander : My lord we couldn't there isn't a plot there and we can only build on plots Lord Vader.

Darth Vader : We are the Empire we can build where we like. *Force Chokes*

I could really imagine something like that the plot system wouldn't fit in at all.

FroZticles 12-10-2004 12:55 AM

I don't see where I said I wanted the BFME plot system in that post. Also have you played BFME? Don't judge a game when you haven't played it yourself I have heard nothing but great things from the some odd 30 reviews I've read.

I would not mind if you could only build in certain areas. Like you start off with a fairly large area where you can build and you must fight creeps/enemies to gain more buildable land. Stops fools from hiding a building and making the game last forever.

lukeiamyourdad 12-10-2004 04:05 AM

AoM did lower the town center spamming problem by introducing settlements, BFME has those ruins and RoN has the nation's border.


You certainly can have outposts.

DK_Viceroy 12-10-2004 05:13 AM

We don't have problems with ppl hiding buildings forever unless it's gungan underwater prefabs.

BFME has been used as an example of things ppl want in the next SW RTS

Darth Windu 12-10-2004 06:22 PM

Well there is a solution to this without going overboard.

1. Use the RoN 'border' system - this means you can only build in the area you currently control

2. Make it so that, once you have no units left, you are defeated. However, if you have unit-prouducing buildings left, you lose when you run out of money

That way, you cant just build anywhere on the map, and you cant hide buildings to make the game never end.

FroZticles 12-10-2004 10:39 PM

Its better you are defeated when all buildings are destroyed. Yea you can't hide buildings but you can hide units which is worse.

Darth Windu 12-10-2004 11:13 PM

But if all you have is non-unit producing buildings, you've lost already.

As for hiding units, in my template anyway there is only a small amount of cloaking, and i'm sure the team making the game can come up with a solution for this.


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