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-   -   What is canon ? (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=145823)

Astrotoy7 03-09-2005 05:34 AM

What is canon ?
 
OK. Ive decided to put this up here as a reference more than anything else, but will leave it open for discussion for the time being.

So, please post any canon related queries and comments HERE :)

The EU and canonical classification are intrinsically linked, and depending on who has produced that particular piece of EU and what it is about, it occupies a different part of the canon...

Kurgan and Keralys are our resident canon experts, but I will list Kurgans famous canon liturgy here, which is taken from sources at starwars.com and wizards.com...

* * *

quoting Kurgan :)

....the canon policy, it's changed a bit over time.

Here's the latest on it:

http://forums.starwars.com/thread.j...t=15&msRange=15


Paraphrasing the comments of others on other forums (thanks Lord Poe):

Lucasfilm's Leeland Chee, aka "Tasty Taste" runs an official database called the "Holocron" which details the various levels of Star Wars canon.

Quote:

Are the entries in the Holocron sorted as cannonical & non-cannonical? Are there various degress of officialness?

The database does indeed have a canon field. Anything in the films and from George Lucas (including unpublished internal notes that we might receive from him or from the film production department) is considered "G" canon. Next we have what we call continuity "C" canon which is pretty much everything else. There is secondary "S" continuity canon which we use for some older published materials and things that may or may not fit just right. But, if it is referenced in something else it becomes "C". Similarly, any "C" canon item that makes it into the films can become "G" canon. Lastly there is non-continuity "N" which we rarely use except in the case of a blatant contradiction or for things that have been cut.

I will not go into specifics as to what is considered "S" canon or what items that are seemingly "C" canon are actually "G" canon.

Okay, I know that the novels are C-level, and I assume that most of the newer comics are also C-level. Where on the continuity spectrum to the Video games come in?

"...continuity "C" canon which is pretty much everything else. " By everything else I mean EVERYthing else. Novels, comics, junior novels, videogames, trading card games, roleplaying games, toys, websites, television. As I've mentioned earlier, any contradictions that arise are dealt on a case-by-case. This has been our general approach to continuity since we began using the Holocron database to track it.

In a nutshell, anything created by the author would be C-level. Anything in the the novels created by George Lucas (whether it comes from unpublished early script versions, unpublished author interviews with George, or George's revisions to the novelization manuscript) would be G-level unless contradicted by the films.

It gets a little more complicated when something is seen on-screen but not named. So the "shuura fruit" mentioned in the AOTC novel would be G because you see it in the film, although the author came up with the name.

Is there anything post-Return of the Jedi that is G level?

Not in the database, no. If there is anything anywhere, only George knows.

Though I don't discuss specific continuity issues in this thread, I do want to the address the fact that in the Holocron, we track continuity by Holocron entry and not by source.

What that means is, a particular source would never be discounted in its entirety, only those elements of that source that are contradictory.

Hence, while there may be individual elements of say the Marvel Comics or the Holiday Special that are considered non-continuity, all the other parts can still be valid.


Interview: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?...w20031204leland

Quote:

Everything is looked at on a case-by-case basis. Among the factors we consider: In how many sources does this particular fact appear? Which source has the largest audience? Which explanation is the coolest? Have we been told by George Lucas to avoid this topic? If, after weighing all those variables, the answer isn't yet clear, the issue is presented to an internal group that makes the final determination as to which source is "correct."


So there you have it... :p


* * *

mtfbwya

Astrotoy7 03-09-2005 05:38 AM

Of course, this means that the Ewok Movies and the Star wars Holiday Special occupy the highest level of canon.... :D

Quote:

Is there anything post-Return of the Jedi that is G level?

Not in the database, no. If there is anything anywhere, only George knows
*cough* coruscant ring any bells. Coined by Tim Zahn.... :p

pftt...and he works for sw.com....

when it come sto EU skillz

Astro > Tasty Taste :p


mtfbwya

Jan Gaarni 03-11-2005 06:44 AM

Heh, was alittle less confusing a few years ago when the official policy of "what is canon" was:
  • Movies
  • Script
  • Movie Novels
  • Radio Dramas

In that order, movies taking precendence over everything of course. :)

The rest, if official, was EU. :)


About Coruscant, I believe George had a whole list of names for the planet, but since he never got to depict it in the 3 first movies, he never decided on one. Coruscant was part of that list, and Zahn picked it out.

Astrotoy7 03-11-2005 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jan Gaarni
.....
About Coruscant, I believe George had a whole list of names for the planet, but since he never got to depict it in the 3 first movies, he never decided on one. Coruscant was part of that list, and Zahn picked it out.

very interesting... where did you read that Jan ?

mtfbwya

Shok_Tinoktin 03-11-2005 07:24 PM

According to starwars.com it was Zahn who thought up the name Coruscant, but Lucas who first came up with the idea of the planet (although a bit different then it is now).

Astrotoy7 03-12-2005 01:53 AM

nice work Shok. Im pretty sure I remember reading Zahn brag about it..... Coruscant seems to have lost its name though during the Galactic Civil War times, and was referred to as Imperial Center...

mtfbwya

Jan Gaarni 03-12-2005 08:24 AM

Well, as I said, I believe, which pretty much means I'm not 100% sure. :)

It's been years and years since I read that, and I can't remember where.

swphreak 03-13-2005 05:53 PM

...

I have a simple solution for everyone about Canon:

Whatever Georgie says
Movies
Books/Comics
Video Games

That pretty much sums it up. None of this "A B C Q R S Canon" junk.

Astrotoy7 03-14-2005 03:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by StarWarsPhreak
...

I have a simple solution for everyone about Canon:

Whatever Georgie says
Movies
Books/Comics
Video Games

That pretty much sums it up. None of this "A B C Q R S Canon" junk.

unfortunately Phreak, outside of your own bathroom, you have no actual power to influence such things...so we are stuck with the alphabet soup :p

hey, but even GL messes up sometimes... ROTJ novelisation.... Uncle Owen = Obi Wans brother ??

mtfbwya

swphreak 03-14-2005 12:14 PM

George is Star Wars God. Period. :p

Me in a bathroom? Why are you thinking me in a bathroom? You stay away from me.

As for influence... who needs influence? Seriously, you people think too much. Go get yourselves girlfriends. Yes, you too Astro!

Astrotoy7 03-17-2005 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by StarWarsPhreak
George is Star Wars God. Period. :p

Me in a bathroom? Why are you thinking me in a bathroom? You stay away from me.

As for influence... who needs influence? Seriously, you people think too much. Go get yourselves girlfriends. Yes, you too Astro!

ive got one, three stepkids and a mortgage :) wanna swap toughguy :p

phreak, I thought you were too cool to ever resort to the 'get a girlfriend' line.., the standard line of the internet jackass who has run out of discussion juice :p

mtfbwya

swphreak 03-17-2005 10:29 AM

That line is necessary when you're in a debate about what is in what category and what contradicts what.

Jan Gaarni 03-17-2005 03:12 PM

Stay with the simple one that I provided, and you can't go wrong. :)

Sort all EU by age (when it was stated first) unless it seems too dumb to be considered "factual". :)

Astrotoy7 03-20-2005 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jan Gaarni
Stay with the simple one that I provided, and you can't go wrong. :)

Sort all EU by age (when it was stated first) unless it seems too dumb to be considered "factual". :)

great, so we have the Jan and Phreak models of canon too ...... :)

Being an EU fanatic, I am always excited by the prospect of GL destroying EU elements with each new movie, and the subsequent backflipping authors do to try make things fit... I wonder what EpIII will bring ??

mtfbwya

abespam 04-08-2005 07:51 AM

in the EU itself though i had own interpretation of levels of canon

1- novels (not the young reader series)
2- games and comics

the reason for this being that novels had constructive plot lines to contribute to the EU and the stories for most novels were used by nearly all other forms for EU. However when you look at comics and games, they sort of like short stories in the SW universe that dont really create a new plot just leak off the old ones. This was for the original star wars comics (eg marvel and some of the classics). Similarly the galaxy of fear books and the dark forces/jedi knight games were sort of secondary level canon to me. However comics now such as dark empire and tales of the jedi have become an integral part of the EU and is commonly referred to even in newer novels. The latter was used to create the kotor series. So now my 2 levels of EU canon look a bit diff

1. novels, dark empire/empires end, tales of the jedi, rogue squadron, kotor series
2. young adult novels, all other games and comics

just by opinion...

Astrotoy7 04-08-2005 10:35 AM

heh... abespam, unless you work for Lucasfilm Licensing than your canon definition is worth just as much as ours = ZERO !!!

and the young jedi knights novels were cool at times, even if they were written by Kevin J Anderson and his wife :D

mtfbwya

Kurgan 04-11-2005 02:13 PM

Here's a good one that's easy to remember:


Anything I like = Canon.

Anything I don't like = Not Canon.


;)

J/k, but that's what fans in a lot of fandoms do anyway... you just can't apply it to anyone else!

Jan Gaarni 04-11-2005 05:14 PM

There is no such things as EU Canon.

There's Canon (the list I provided, LucasFilm Licensing might have added some more in recent time, I'm not completelly up to date these days :) ), and then there's everything else (EU).

And then you have unofficial stuff which just should be left alone. :p

"Canon" status is not a matter of personal opinion. Keep that in mind.

Astrotoy7 04-12-2005 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jan Gaarni
"Canon" status is not a matter of personal opinion. Keep that in mind.
yes, Kurgan must have been posting when he was drunk, again :p

JK

mtfbwya

Jan Gaarni 04-12-2005 01:44 PM

That was not ment for Kurgan, he seems to know his stuff. :)

It was more ment for those calling EU for canon. :D

Kurgan 04-26-2005 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Astrotoy7
yes, Kurgan must have been posting when he was drunk, again :p

JK

mtfbwya

Hopefully I don't start banning people while drunk.


J/k ;)

Astrotoy7 04-27-2005 10:33 AM

Ive been thinking about the TV series... I think GL will be providing story outlines and being more of an exec producer, like in Young Indy.... I wonder what level of canon this falls into ???

By current definitions, it hovers between G and C, like the Clone Wars series :)

mtfbwya

Jan Gaarni 04-28-2005 08:35 AM

It's probably EU. Like the Ewok series for instance.


The Holocron wasn't created to say what book, novel, game, film etc. is G-Level or C-level or whatever level they use, but each and every single reference within said book, film, game, etc....

Master_Keralys 04-29-2005 01:42 AM

I hate canon...

That aside, though, I think I can be a little constructive. As Lucas has said he'll be writing the first season himself, then letting it go from there, I'm guessing that will fall under "C-canon" (shouldn't that technically be the G-canon, for George? ;) :p ). As far as after that, well, who knows. I'm not too sure about either that show or the cartoon one, as the Clone Wars royally screwed up and contradicted almost every other source in existence when it came to the events of the Clone Wars, particularly those leading into Ep. III. Talk about a mess...

I can't wait to see what kinds of MESSES Revenge causes...

PS - Astro, thanks for the compliment "one of the authorities..." nice to know I'm appreciated around here.;)

Jan Gaarni 04-29-2005 04:28 AM

Well, the actual piece will most likely be an EU piece, despite the first season being written by George Lucas.

However, since the content of first season mostly will have G-Level status (obviously, it is written by George after all :) ) as a source, there's not much in EU that will be able to override it ... past, present, or in the future. :)
Not even the movie novels are able to do that, even though they rank as 3rd in the canon list (see post further up).

Kurgan 04-29-2005 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jan Gaarni
It's probably EU. Like the Ewok series for instance.


The Holocron wasn't created to say what book, novel, game, film etc. is G-Level or C-level or whatever level they use, but each and every single reference within said book, film, game, etc....

A good point to remember. Parts of the Star Wars Holiday Special for example, might be G-Level canon, while a larger portion of it has become N-Level canon (supposedly).

The term "EU" is really not that useful when it comes to this, because it stands for "Expanded Universe" and quite literally means all the storys in Star Wars other than the movies themselves. With the C-Level (Continuity) and G-Level (George Lucas) Canon, you at least have the heirarchy of "authority" as to what is "real" in the series.

The point is to determine where the story goes from here. The trouble is that Lucas himself can do whatever he wants, including contradict old sources and rewrite them (as he's done with his constant revisions to the OT for example). The rest of the franchise just has to play catch up. Oh well, it's been this way for almost a decade now!

Jan Gaarni 05-04-2005 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kurgan


The term "EU" is really not that useful when it comes to this, because it stands for "Expanded Universe" and quite literally means all the storys in Star Wars other than the movies themselves.

If that's true then they must have changed the policy in recent years and bumped down the script, movie novels and radio drama's into what we in the past would have considered to be EU.

On the other hand, that would mean everything is canon (except for fan fiction etc...), divided into 2 catagories (G and C levels). I have no trouble with this, it means that if it's G-level or C-level it's part of Star Wars and cannot be disregarded no matter what anyone personally think. But it does make it harder to argue what is correct and what is not. The star destroyer dome issue for instance comes to mind. :)

Personally though, I've stopped caring as passionatly anymore.

Whatever they decide what is what I'll wait and see and then relearn Star Wars from scratch. ;)

Kurgan 05-20-2005 03:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jan Gaarni
If that's true then they must have changed the policy in recent years and bumped down the script, movie novels and radio drama's into what we in the past would have considered to be EU.

On the other hand, that would mean everything is canon (except for fan fiction etc...), divided into 2 catagories (G and C levels). I have no trouble with this, it means that if it's G-level or C-level it's part of Star Wars and cannot be disregarded no matter what anyone personally think. But it does make it harder to argue what is correct and what is not. The star destroyer dome issue for instance comes to mind. :)

Personally though, I've stopped caring as passionatly anymore.

Whatever they decide what is what I'll wait and see and then relearn Star Wars from scratch. ;)

What is the point of "canon" in a fictional franchise anyway? Theoretically if you were going to do some kind of "Vs." debate it would make sense, but in a practical sense it's for continuity-sake.

That is, when a new official book, game, or cartoon comes out, the writers are supposed to go "Oh, we can't do X and Y, because it's previously been established that... etc" Or "we have to make sure we mention A and B, in our new source, because they are part of the story already established..."

The trouble is that Lucas basically changes things whenever it suites him (modifying old movies, releasing new ones, although he's done once ROTS hits DVD, at least in terms of brand new films) and the liscensed authors just have to retcon things as best they can.

Yes, everything official (ie: liscensed... so fan fiction/films are excluded) is "canon" EXCEPT for stuff like Infinities and the first 20 issues of "Star Wars Tales."

And the levels of canon are for determining what source "wins" if there is a contradiction. This isn't always perfect though since if there are contradictions on the same level (like say in the movies) then you just have to leave it to the Holocron to figure it out.


I wouldn't say that the Radio Dramas, Screenplays and Novelisations of the films are now "EU." Only the parts of them that depict events that aren't in the films (like the new history of the Sith) would be "expanded material" logically. But as a whole that source would still be higher level of "authority" than say, some comic book in C-Level.

On the other hand it's been pointed out that you don't de-canonize entire sources because of one contradiction, only the part that contradicts. But without an official retcon, it's anyone's guess how it's resolved.

^Invader 07-11-2005 05:40 PM

as a member of the 501st we are told cannon is anything that is in the movies, tv series etc.


Unfornately Anakin when he became vader before the mask we just can't quite agree on for some weird reason *shrug*

Astrotoy7 07-14-2005 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ^Invader
Unfornately Anakin when he became vader before the mask we just can't quite agree on for some weird reason *shrug*
Anakin doesnt need the suit to be Darth Vader. He became a Dark Lord of the Sith when Darth Sidious declared him as his apprentice. Just because we first got to know him in the suit doesnt make that an ummutable point. I would think the 501st crowd were fanboyish enough to realise that :p

mtfbwya

Prime 07-14-2005 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Astrotoy7
Anakin doesnt need the suit to be Darth Vader. He became a Dark Lord of the Sith when Darth Sidious declared him as his apprentice. Just because we first got to know him in the suit doesnt make that an ummutable point. I would think the 501st crowd were fanboyish enough to realise that :p
Werdz.

Story-wise Anakin/Darth Vader was never intended to end up in a lifesupport suit. Of course, that was an undesirable turn of events because it ment that Vader ended up being much less powerful than he would have been had he not been injured. That was the whole reason why Palpatine later sought to replace him with Luke. Luke was in essense the young, undamaged version of Vader, and had the potential that Vader never fulfilled.

^Invader 07-14-2005 01:13 PM

hehe tell legion command and the other 2999 members LOL

Astrotoy7 07-15-2005 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ^Invader
hehe tell legion command and the other 2999 members LOL
or tell a couple of LF mods and LFs 90, 000 members :p

anyways, any subsequent discussion *must* be back on topic...


mtfbwya

Astrotoy7 07-17-2005 02:34 AM

Re: Dash Rendar
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Frankencow
Woops, mods ignore that other post. I hit the wrong button...

ahem

So does he officially die or live and get away? I've been mixed up by playing Shadows too much.

Frankecow, this thread is solely for the purpose of discussion the definitions and limitation of canonical classification.

Your question about Dash belongs in that Dash Rendar thread(which I have replied to)..

It is possible to delete posts by pressing the "edit" button. You will notice a "delete post" check box - cjeck it and sumbit, and thats it !

mtfbwya

Emperor Devon 11-24-2005 09:11 PM

Whatever I do not like is canon. That includes the NJO novels, Palpatine having children, whatever supershadow says, and quite a few other things.

Astrotoy7 11-27-2005 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
.....whatever supershadow says.........

lolz, wouldnt it be great if sw.com assigned supershadow an offical Z level rating, cant get any lower than that :p

mtfbwya

Jan Gaarni 12-17-2005 05:37 PM

Yes you can: -level. :D :D :D

And don't mention that name ever again.
Why isn't it added on the cuss-filter list yet? :D :D :D

swphreak 12-17-2005 07:51 PM

I wish LucasFilms would issue a cease and desist letter to SS...

The Doctor 12-17-2005 10:56 PM

^ Or send "The Boys" after him.

^Invader 12-19-2005 09:38 AM

I agree i feel SS is full of it, personally his involvement in anything. IF he worked with LFL or whatnot he would be under a NDA, and from what i see on his site he more likes to talk folx down and very willing to talk about it. Most guys in the 501st thinks he's full of it, and im one of them.


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