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urluckyday 04-01-2005 01:53 PM

Why did they do CG?
 
In Attack of The Clones, there were hundreds of clone troopers seen. Why did they decide not to have any real life clone troopers? I know it would have been harder, but I think the quality of the film could have been better.

El Sitherino 04-02-2005 01:09 AM

Because George is a ****ty director that does most of his directing in the editing room. So CG = much better in the end.

Prime 04-02-2005 01:11 AM

Is there really that much of a difference?

El Sitherino 04-03-2005 04:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Chase Windu
He thinks better CG means better story telling
... Hmm... bull****.

Shok_Tinoktin 04-03-2005 05:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Chase Windu
Yeah. He thinks better CG means better story telling which is complete crap if you ask me.
I don't think he believes that. He wants to put certain things in his movies, and back in the day, he would have to come up with a creative way of doing them. Now, he can just do it on computers, and spare the hassle. What he doesn't seem to realize, is that it tends to look like crap.

Kurgan 04-03-2005 05:10 PM

I dunno, in the prequels I was quite impressed with the CGI. Only a few times did I say to myself "oh man that looks fake." Examples include Anakin "surfing" on top of that bulbuous cow type creature in AOTC, Padme's a little TOO perfect "action figure riding vehicle" posture on top of that animal in AOTC's arena scene, and that pan over of the Clonetrooper helmets at the end of the movie (that screamed "video game cutscene"). It was in that scene that I thought the clones must have been CGI, but I didn't realize they ALL were until I read about it later on the 'net.

The Special Editions weren't too bad, except for Jabba (obviously CG) and the Stormtrooper that was riding the Dewback in ANH (c'mon, he flopped around like a fuzzy plastic doll). The 2004 DVD's brought to light how fake looking the "Rontos" were in ANH (practically with big fuzzy lense flares on them), though I didn't notice it on the big screen.

Also on the big screen (the IMAX EXPERIENCE), the first pan over of Kamino's platform in AOTC looked fake (I could see clipping between the object and the background that wouldn't be there in real life), though I didn't notice this on the DVD or the regular theater.

Those were moments that "took me out of it." Sure, a couple of the close ups of Jar Jar in TPM where Obi-Wan and Qui Gon are first talking to him it seemed like they were looking above him or past him, but that was about it. The rest felt pretty seemless.

I actually think the lightsabers in TPM look better than the ones in AOTC. Compare clips. The ones in TPM look bright and "solid" like we're used to from the better shots from the OT, but suddenly in AOTC they look a little too colorful like they were pasted in with a computer (as SURPRISE! they were, but anyway). That said, the effect looks cool, but when you compare the difference it takes you a bit out of the moment.

The effects added to the SE's weren't bad, but the ones that worked best were the ship effects or scenes added where the whole thing was CG, rather than pasting in some character that wasn't there before (like Jabba). Sure the 2004 Jabba was much improved, but since we all know the puppet so well, he just didn't quite cut it.

Yoda in AOTC took some getting used to, I'll grant that. He moved a little too slowly and carefully at times, that made you think he must be a computer construct and they're taking their time to show off his every bone structure and angle. While you accepted him as "real" after awhile, certain shots make his head look really round and blob-like (ditto for some shots in the ROTS trailers) that he didn't seem to have in the OT or TPM (with the puppets). The puppet in ESB at times looks pretty fake but again you accept him most of the time as some old alien.

We aren't to the point yet where "humans" that are CGI look completely lifelike, but space ships, aliens we've never seen before that don't interact too much with real humans, and robots look pretty convincing these days.

And LOTR has shown how crowd scenes and large "ground battles" can be done convincingly with a mixture of CG and real or completely CG. I think we've come a long way.

I'm not of the mind that replacing puppets and models with CGI is automatically better, but also I agree that we're to the point where CGI isn't automatically "more fake."

Still, for established characters (like Yoda) we're used to seeing them "more real" (like the puppet in TPM) so some of that is lost with the CGI. But it's far easier to have a cgi Yoda jumping around in a saber battle than a puppet and make it convincing, so I give him that.

Momentary lapses in the film like I've described aren't just CG either. Every time I see an obvious "matte box" around a ship or something, that yells to me "hey! you're watching a made up movie!" I can overlook it, it's just a little distracting.

TK-8252 04-04-2005 09:54 PM

I hope you realize that since they're clones, they all have to be the exact same height? Finding hundreds of men with identical heights (and I'd imagine weight too since they all got fed about the same) is impossible. Not to mention the thousands of dollars that would go into mass-producing the costumes and paying the actors... it's not needed. CG is fine and the only efficient way to do it.

Shok_Tinoktin 04-04-2005 10:16 PM

That wouldn't be necessary. They could use a few guys of identical height, and repeat them over and over. That said, I think the CG clone troopers look fine.

TK-8252 04-04-2005 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shok_Tinoktin
They could use a few guys of identical height, and repeat them over and over.
Seems sorta CG to me.

Shok_Tinoktin 04-04-2005 10:46 PM

Not exactly. It could be done without a computer, but thats beside the point. The images themselves would not have to be created using a computer. Its like when you see large crowds of people in movies. Usually there are not that many people really there.

urluckyday 04-06-2005 03:13 PM

If you look at starwars.com and behind the scenes, that's exactly what they do with the wookies, get a few real ones and then copy them over and over again, just in different spots.

The Hidden One 04-06-2005 06:44 PM

What's "CG"?

TK-8252 04-06-2005 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Hidden One
What's "CG"?
Computer generated.

coupes. 04-06-2005 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by legowar
If you look at starwars.com and behind the scenes, that's exactly what they do with the wookies, get a few real ones and then copy them over and over again, just in different spots.
There are still a lot of CG wookies in there though, besides we're not talking about wookiees here. He was asking why the clonetroopers were CG.

idle 10-01-2005 11:25 AM

If this was a movie about an actual war I could see gripes about using this much CG but it is infact about a galaxy far, far away. It's based on Saturday matinee scifi serials, I love how it looks completely different from all other films and is miles above ones that use too much CG (Captain Whatever and the World of Tomorrow, anyone?). CG suites Star Wars and creates an amazing world that would be impossible to make anywhere else.

<3 CG

Kurgan 10-03-2005 08:12 AM

I think he mostly did it "because he can."

He probably thought "hey wouldn't it be awesome if I could show the movie and then say to the collectors who wanted to buy a Clone uniform.. 'but there was no clone uniform costume, they were all made in a computer!' and have their jaw drop to the floor."

Lucas probably lives for such moments. ;)

Actually in ROTS I thought "these guys look so REAL" until I watched ANH on DVD again barely 24 hours after my first viewing. And then I saw what REAL stormtroopers looked like and realized how fake the ROTS troopers had been. It was just because I hadn't seen the originals in awhile that I didn't have a fresh, crisp picture of them in my mind to compare.

They were a little too fuzzy and plastic, vs. the shiney, gritty, grimy, clanking outfits.

He could have just gotten a bunch of guys of similar heights and used shoe lifts and camera angles to produce the rest. Even crowd scenes can be done without CG, ever hear of blue screen techniques? Those weren't exactly a novel phenomena even back in the late 70's, early 80's. ;) Like somebody said, film a bunch of guys and then composite the rest in.

Actually in the OT there are several crowd scenes where they just used cardboard cutouts (or mattes) which appear to be giant photographs of crowds. They look totally real until you take a still frame and look carefully, then it looks like crap. And none of them were fixed in the Special Editions (except for the ending of ANH).

Prime 10-03-2005 10:16 AM

Chase Windu Smash!!

:)

Jeff 10-03-2005 07:36 PM

I guess I never really noticed that the clones were CG. I mean, I knew they were, but when I watched the movie I didn't think, "Hey! They aren't real people!" I think it was better this way in the end.

MachineCult 10-03-2005 07:41 PM

The clones looked real enough.
I was convinced the closeup clones ("We're out of rockets sir") were real until i found out otherwise.
But theres one thing you have to remember, the CG looks amazing.

Kurgan 10-03-2005 09:46 PM

Like I said, there were only a few moments when I thought "Hey those look like CG!" in AOTC.

In ROTS I agree, they looked "real enough."

The only scene that was a little odd was the one when "Commander Cody" takes off his helmet. There's this really loud sound effect of the helmet coming off and it looks kind of cartoony for like a split second. Hard to explain, but it made me think ("did they CGI the armor on, or did they CGI his head onto a CG body?"). But overall there were fewer "Ah ha, CG!" moments in ROTS than in the other two prequels, or the special editions.

SirLancelot 11-17-2005 06:33 PM

The reason he used CG is because he wanted the uniformity, since the Clone Army were exact genetic duplicates. Just my theory. While he could have used live actors, there was a chance of them not being exactly alike, so he did CG. I had no probelm with it.

And for those saying he's a ****ty director, it's ironic that you have taken the time to see all of his movies. LOL!!!!

The Doctor 11-26-2005 12:22 AM

Lucas made the clones CG because he had the money to spend. That's really all there is to it, IMO.

El Sitherino 11-26-2005 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirLancelot
And for those saying he's a ****ty director, it's ironic that you have taken the time to see all of his movies. LOL!!!!

Not really, the stories are why I see Star Wars, not the greatest cinematography and acting in the world.

boinga1 11-27-2005 12:20 AM

I see I'm the only one who voted for clone trooper. I assume the question means which one is the best choice visually, and I feel that the clone troopers fit the bill as the galaxy's most elite troops. Stormies do look slightly more "real" in some sense, but (especially in ANH) they're just some extras in suits and don't act (or necessarily look) like elite shock troops. I also prefer the AOTC troops for the slightly more unique look and obvious Mandalorian resemblances. I felt the ROTS troops were, ultimately, CG stormies with new visors. And colors. Ooh, pretty colors. :rolleyes: :p

EDIT: And I know that the ROTS trooper are in my sig. ;)

Kurgan 11-27-2005 09:45 PM

I like Star Wars for the sense of wonder, adventure, likable characters, and cool special effects. I generally like sci fi and sword fighting in movies so that automatically appeals to me. And yes, there's nostalgia from watching them as a youngster! ;)

Kurgan 11-27-2005 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shok_Tinoktin
Not exactly. It could be done without a computer, but thats beside the point. The images themselves would not have to be created using a computer. Its like when you see large crowds of people in movies. Usually there are not that many people really there.

Exactly so. There's a big difference between compositing some more people into a scene (including the same people shot a different way!) that aren't actually there on set.... and creating people that are completely CG (ie: they are computer 3-D models, not photographed human actors).

In the original trilogy there's a couple of instances in crowd shots where Lucas put in cardboard cutouts that were painted in (note the award ceremony in ANH, which was "Fixed" in the Special Edition.. or the Emperor's arrival in ROTJ that remains). The latter example is less obvious except when you freeze frame. Another use of cardboard is the shot of Lando hanging onto the bottom of the skiff while Luke leaps from one to the other in ROTJ (I never noticed it until somebody pointed it out in the last year and now it's painfully obvious everytime I watch it!). ROTJ was supposedly completed in less than a year, so that's the only explanation I can think of for why this stuff wasn't fixed. Because the technology for inserting those characters certainly existed at the time. Why Lucas didn't take the time to correct any of this while he was re-editing the films I don't know.


So yes, Lucas could have created identically heighted stormtroopers AND stormtroopers all with the same voice if he had wanted to back in the 1980's (he probably didn't have the money to do it in 1977). It's not necessary to do so, and his after the fact explanations make it clear he has no plans to do that anytime soon, which is fine by me.

master_skywalke 11-28-2005 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurgan
So yes, Lucas could have created identically heighted stormtroopers AND stormtroopers all with the same voice if he had wanted to back in the 1980's (he probably didn't have the money to do it in 1977). It's not necessary to do so, and his after the fact explanations make it clear he has no plans to do that anytime soon, which is fine by me.

Don't post this! You might give GL funny ideas... :p

itchythesamurai 11-30-2005 10:09 PM

I think they could've done it sorta like the new Charlie and the Chocolate Factory with all those Oompa Loompas being just one guy.

Kurgan 11-30-2005 11:32 PM

Yeah. Incidentally I thought that really sucked (not that it wasn't convincing, just that the entire Oompa Loompa population looking identical was lame).

SirLancelot 12-10-2005 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Insane Sith
Not really, the stories are why I see Star Wars, not the greatest cinematography and acting in the world.


Of course not. It was never about the acting. The stories however, were well put together onscreen, evidenced by how we are all still mesmerized by them. George Lucas did something right, I would say.

MachineCult 12-10-2005 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurgan
Yeah. Incidentally I thought that really sucked (not that it wasn't convincing, just that the entire Oompa Loompa population looking identical was lame).

I kind of thought it kind of looked like a miniature clone army when they were being trained.

Elukka 02-11-2006 01:14 PM

Neither did i know the clones were CG before i read about it.

About things looking fake: Lookt at the umm.. thingy falling on Obi-Wan on the bridge of Grievous's ship, Obi-Wan looks so fake there. :D

Edit: Gah! Of course i had to do something noobish!

MachineCult 02-11-2006 01:36 PM

This thread is OLD man don't post on old threads.

Fealiks 02-12-2006 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by legowar
In Attack of The Clones, there were hundreds of clone troopers seen. Why did they decide not to have any real life clone troopers? I know it would have been harder, but I think the quality of the film could have been better.

you know what? you're right. It would've been much easier to hire thousands of athletic able actors who are all the same height and weight, train them to all move the same and put the thousand of costumes on them that the clothing department could have easily made in a month or so.

or not.

snailboy 03-20-2006 06:00 PM

Real life army=Awesome
CGI Army=Awesome

CGI armies are easier to blow up real good.

MachineCult 03-20-2006 06:47 PM

I don't think it even makes a difference, I thought that some of the Clones were real before I leant otherwise.

Redtech 03-21-2006 11:36 AM

It can be done extremely well, but sometimes I think Lucas could have used stunt men for when humans were floating around, I mean, the Palpatine fights were really stupid in the way he bounced everywhere like a DBZ characters.

Anyway, ours is not to judge the way a film is created, I guess. After all, we're not directors!

Commander Obi-Wan 03-21-2006 01:04 PM

Well, Palpatine is strong in the Force. He can do anything.

Redtech 03-22-2006 09:04 AM

Still looks fake as fung though. And he can't stop his own lightning attacks from frying him. Even a noob in the Jedi knight series could do that. ;)


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