LucasForums

LucasForums (http://www.lucasforums.com/index.php)
-   Ye Olde Harbour (http://www.lucasforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=132)
-   -   Pope John Paul II (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=147117)

Kj°len 04-02-2005 03:20 PM

Pope John Paul II
 
Pope John Paul II dies at 84

This is a sad moment for not just Catholics. The Pope was a great man that did wonderful things for everyone. Catholics, other Christians, Muslims, Jewish, Athiests, everyone.

It is relieving though, that he was finally released from his painful life to somewhere much better.

DrMcCoy 04-02-2005 03:28 PM

...Well, I despise the organized (christian) church(es), so I somehow couldn't care less... *shrug*

toenail1 04-02-2005 06:21 PM

Even if you hate every religion on the planet with a burning passion, you can not hate this man.

He did countless things that helped unity on this planet, not just between the religions, but also between the races. He also helped bring democracy to Eastern European countries (including Poland).

JofaGuht 04-02-2005 07:24 PM

Toenails right. I'm not the biggest fan of catholicism but this pope was a good pope. He did a lot of reforming and apologizing for crappy stuff Catholics did hundreds of years ago.

Of course, this is a tad bit of a different character, but a very funny comedian, Mitch Hedberg, died on Wednesday of heart failure. That really sucks....

Vikinor 04-02-2005 09:38 PM

I am Catholic. Man today was just weird. That guy was the Pope when I was born. It will be weird to have a new person being the Holy Father.

Alien426 04-03-2005 04:25 AM

For someone's sake, people, you actually let yourselves be impressed by all the hoohaa that TV specials about the pope's death tell you? If those things he did were really that grand then you'd heard that praise when they happened or in some other documentaries. I for one haven't seen any of that.

And what's more, you believe that it was all his doing? Could be, but I think he is (much like all the other leaders) the sum of what his advisors and schemers tell him to do and what he decides to do. His image to the outside world may have been that he's a strong man and decides for himself, yet he's been pretty old and prone to get swayed by people close to him.

This pope told people not to use birth control, dagnabbit! Even if you're catholic, you shouldn't be so blind to call someone great after some flattering obituaries.

I despise the amount of warshipping that goes on with the pope(s). What's the first two commandments? Then why do catholics pray to images of mother Mary?

"The 264th pontiff traveled more and beatified more people than any pope in history" (from CNN.com). Come on, this is the 21st century. It was never that easy to travel and use mass media and do all the other things that are said to have made him so modern and influential.

JofaGuht 04-03-2005 05:17 AM

I haven't seen any of the specials. I'm basing off what I know, the evidence makes me assume that he was better than previous popes.

I'm 100% nonreligious. All the stuff you're pointing out, Alien, seems to be stuff on why religion is bad as opposed to why the pope was. Stuff like that birth control crap, I don't hate the pope for that, I hate the fact that people let their lives be controlled by a belief. I, personally, don't really think there should even be a pope, and if so than they should have less power. It's just this one seemed to be a tad more clear-minded than the other ones. I don't feel grief-stricken by his death or anything, I just acknowledge it. Mitch Hedberg's death, however, pisses me off a tad more.

DrMcCoy 04-03-2005 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by toenail1
Even if you hate every religion on the planet with a burning passion, you can not hate this man.
...I have never said that I hate him, I just don't care that he's dead now...

...Apart from that, what Alien said...

Fealiks 04-03-2005 10:40 AM

thats sad. The fact that hes dead, and was a brilliant man, and that my programme was interupted with a newsflash :xp: (j/k)

Kj°len 04-03-2005 12:28 PM

You people seemt o be missing the POINT of a Pope. Our belief, anyway, states that the Pope's teachings are infallable. Now The Pope of course can't teach your Calculus, but his teachings of the church. He was a great man, and his teaching of restrictions, like birth control is simply the Church's belief. Our belief states that the Pope speaks the word of Jesus Himself, has the power of the Holy Spirit to teach people what God would have wanted. Now, saying this, there were a LOT of murderous and other Popes in our history, but they say "If what the Pope says is always correct, then why didn't those Popes say it was ok to have more than one wife, just to save themselves?" Never has there been a Pope, even the ones that did horrible things, that taught against the Church. That is what we believe to be Jesus or the Holy Spirit working through the Popes to keep the Church's rules sacred.

As for a beautified obituary, well who cares about that? It's not the Pope's fault that it was all over TV, so you can't blame him for that. The reason why it was so big, was because so many people loved him. So many people loved the Pope, so when he died they were saddened, and relieved that he wasn't in pain anymore.

These are our beliefs, you don't have to believe them, so long as you don't bash them.

DrMcCoy 04-03-2005 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kj°len
Our belief, anyway, states that the Pope's teachings are infallable.
...Which is, sorry to say that, stupid in my eyes... Nobody is infallible...

Quote:

Originally posted by Kj°len
Now The Pope of course can't teach your Calculus, but his teachings of the church. He was a great man, and his teaching of restrictions, like birth control is simply the Church's belief.
...Which basically means that he's just a puppet...

Quote:

Originally posted by Kj°len
Our belief states that the Pope speaks the word of Jesus Himself, has the power of the Holy Spirit to teach people what God would have wanted.
. . .

Quote:

Originally posted by Kj°len
Never has there been a Pope, even the ones that did horrible things, that taught against the Church. That is what we believe to be Jesus or the Holy Spirit working through the Popes to keep the Church's rules sacred.
...So the horrible things are wanted by the church... Woopidoo...

Quote:

Originally posted by Kj°len
As for a beautified obituary, well who cares about that? It's not the Pope's fault that it was all over TV, so you can't blame him for that.
...I don't blame him, I blame the people... There are thousands of "normal" people dying every day and nobody cares... Then one man with a long and fulfilled life dies and everybody is oh-so-sad...

Quote:

Originally posted by Kj°len
These are our beliefs, you don't have to believe them, so long as you don't bash them.
...I don't have anything against your believes, as long as you don't bug me with them and/or force them upon me...
But reserve me the right to laugh at you when you begin to speak about (what seems to be for me) ridiculous things (you can, of course, laugh at everything you think is ridiculous, if you want to...)...

*shrug*

Kj°len 04-03-2005 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DrMcCoy
...So the horrible things are wanted by the church... Woopidoo...



...I don't blame him, I blame the people... There are thousands of "normal" people dying every day and nobody cares... Then one man with a long and fulfilled life dies and everybody is oh-so-sad...

No no, that's not what I meant. Let's use Pope Alexander I. I believe he was the Pope that killed maaaaany of his political rivals. I'm not saying that the Church wanted these horrible things, I'm just saying that the Popes who may have killed, womanized and such, never actually tried to change the rules to say that killing and womanizing were ok, even to save themselves. What I'm trying to say is that the Holy Spirit works through the Popes, so that they can deliver the message of what God wants through teachings. Now, you are right that no one is infallable, even the Pope. I never said he was infallable, like I said, don't ask him for help Maths homework, or to name every moon around Jupiter, but that in his teachings of the Church, he is infallable. Whatever the Pope teachs, is what Jesus is teaching, THROUGH the Pope.

As for the funeral, it's not that big of a deal either. Thousands of people die, and then the people who knew the deceased have a funeral. The fact that many people knew the Pope, is what made his death more nationalized. It's like if Bill Gates died, you would hear about it in the news, and they might even give a biography of him.

DrMcCoy 04-03-2005 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kj°len
Whatever the Pope teachs, is what Jesus is teaching, THROUGH the Pope.
...K... *shrug*

Quote:

Originally posted by Kj°len
As for the funeral, it's not that big of a deal either. Thousands of people die, and then the people who knew the deceased have a funeral. The fact that many people knew the Pope, is what made his death more nationalized.
...It's just that everywhere I go, all I see is "Oh the pope died, let's wheep and mourn", in every forum, on every TV channel, everywhere... Like I said, I couldn't care less about his death, so it's bugging me a bit...

Quote:

Originally posted by Kj°len
It's like if Bill Gates died, you would hear about it in the news, and they might even give a biography of him.
...And I would dance and sing and stuff :xp:

Kj°len 04-03-2005 02:56 PM

Well I understand how it can be annoying you a bit, but the people have the right to mourn for him.

As for Bill Gates, yeah I thought about using someone more POPULAR to reference to. :p But in all honesty, I have nothing against Bill Gates. He made Microsoft, he became very successful, he went through the trouble of making contracts with major computer manufacturers to have Windows on their computers. Now he just sits back and lets his excecutives do the work. It's not his fault that his OS sucks, he just owns it. :p

DrMcCoy 04-03-2005 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kj°len
Well I understand how it can be annoying you a bit, but the people have the right to mourn for him.
...Hmm, I think you're right...

...I would be quite sad as well if Linus Torvalds or RMS died, for example... But not to that extend and it certainly wouldn't create such a big fuss in the media...

*shrug*

Quote:

Originally posted by Kj°len
It's not his fault that his OS sucks, he just owns it. :p
...Objectable...
And it's definitely his fault he's telling lies about his and other's OS, for example...

Kj°len 04-03-2005 03:35 PM

Bill Gates is basically a puppet now. After Windows 3.x series, he had no part of the building of his OS. Now he just talks at conventions and makes billions.

This is my belief, at least :p

Joshi 04-03-2005 04:22 PM

I told myself that I wasn't going to post here for reasons that should become apparent soon, but I feel strongly that I have to interject here.

First of all, yes, many forums and TV stations are talking about the death of the Pope, much like they talk about the latest Star Wars movie or newest Harry Potter book. The fact that you can choose not to go to them has seemed to pass you by. This is one thread in amongst many in this forum of which you can post in and yet you seem to want to post in this one despite the fact that you disagree with the message or whatever. First of all, this is a thread about mourning, a while ago we had one about the death of an author. If I hadn't liked that author, would I have badgered them about putting up a thread mourning his death? No, I would have left it to them, when it comes to someones death, my opinion on their life actions doesn't matter.

Secondly,
Quote:

Originally posted by Dr McCoy
...I don't have anything against your believes, as long as you don't bug me with them and/or force them upon me...
But reserve me the right to laugh at you when you begin to speak about (what seems to be for me) ridiculous things (you can, of course, laugh at everything you think is ridiculous, if you want to...)...

I can't see anyone here forcing their beliefs on you, again participation in this thread is completely optional. But frankly, I see no reason why we should "reserve you the right to laugh at them when they seem to speak about (what seems to you) ridiculous things". Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing, but you have to learn tact and learn that these are peoples beliefs we're talking about. No matter what someone believes you reserve absolutly no right to laugh at them because of it. That kind of thing offends people, deeply, it's called rascism and you have no right to do that.
You are entitled to you opinion, and if this were a religious ranting thread then by all means, do so at your own risk. But this isn't a religious rant thread, this is a thread to mourn the death of someone who meant something to certain people in this board who don't need you telling them what's so wrong about the Pope.

I personally wasn't going to come into this thread because frankly, the Pope didn't mean that much to me, but you guys didn't need me coming round telling you that, it would have been as useful as a thread being opened asking if anyone knew the Secret of Monkey Island and me coming back with a simple 'no'.

But as moderator of these baourds, I feel it's important that i at least read these things just to make sure nothing annoying is happening, like innocent mourning threads turning into fully fledged religious rants.

So I'm going to say right now, if you want to discuss this, start a thread, but keep it clean. Otherwise, leave it out of here.


RIP Pope John Paul II

Neil

Kj°len 04-03-2005 04:38 PM

Thanks, Neil, that was extremely well put. My thoughts exactly, but it really wasn't that big of a deal to me. I don't mind that anyone thinks my beliefs to be ridiculus. And this was a civilized conversation too. DrMcCoy and I exchanged our thoughts in a very civil way, compared to some other religious discussions that have went horribly wrong in the past in these forums. ;)

toenail1 04-03-2005 06:53 PM

Just pretend he wasn't the pope. Imagine that somebody is telling you about how somebody they cared about died (maybe their friend or family member). Now wouldn't you feel sorry if one of your friends came up to you and told you that their cousin died, or one of their other family members? This should be no different, if you don't like what the pope stood for, then don't even think about it. Treat him as a normal person. If you still don't care, then the fact that you're posting about it seems a little odd...

And no, I am not a "devout" catholic. I haven't been to church since I was around 3. I have friends who are extremely religious, and others who are aetheist and share the same beliefs (or lack of beliefs) as you.


Nothing I said here was pointed as a flame at anybody though. I respect everybody on this board.

Vikinor 04-03-2005 07:07 PM

The Pope was a great man regardless if you are Catholic or not.

Kj°len 04-03-2005 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by toenail1
Just pretend he wasn't the pope. Imagine that somebody is telling you about how somebody they cared about died (maybe their friend or family member). Now wouldn't you feel sorry if one of your friends came up to you and told you that their cousin died, or one of their other family members?
That is exactly my point. People should at least be respectful of the dead.

Somehow I don't think people would tell you this after someone you cared about just died:

Quote:

I somehow couldn't care less... *shrug*
A simple "Rest in Peace" would have been nice. :p

Alien426 04-04-2005 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by VikingLarz
The Pope was a great man regardless if you are Catholic or not.
I disagree.

Quote:

Originally posted by Joshi
...this is a thread to mourn the death...
Where does it say that? People can't expect anything but that the topic is "Pope John Paul II" like the title says.

Quote:

Originally posted by Joshi
...many forums and TV stations are talking about the death of the Pope, much like they talk about the latest Star Wars movie or newest Harry Potter book. The fact that you can choose not to go to them has seemed to pass you by.
Wrong. They don't disrupt programs for Star Wars or Harry Potter. In another forum people said that the movie "Shrek" was abruptly interrupted by the news of the pope's death. Just ten minutes before the end!
I had missed a movie and wanted to record its rerun yesterday. No can do. It was cancelled. Who would want to watch a documentary after 2.00 am when they are run all day long?

DrMcCoy 04-04-2005 02:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Joshi
No matter what someone believes you reserve absolutly no right to laugh at them because of it.
...Well, let's imagine there's someone who (strongly) believes that we live in a hollow sphere or that he himself is Jesus or something. Wouldn't you laugh at him? I certainly would... And even if you think that the "no right to laugh" only applies to religion, well, where should we draw the line?

Quote:

Originally posted by Joshi
That kind of thing offends people, deeply, it's called rascism and you have no right to do that.
...No, that's not rascism, I'm not judging persons by their race, but by their deeds...

...But anyway, I'm sorry I was harsh and maybe even mean, the whole pope thing just got on my nerves...

Quote:

Originally posted by Joshi
RIP Pope John Paul II
...Hmm, yeah, may he rest in peace, no matter how this rest actually looks like...

Quote:

Originally posted by toenails1
Just pretend he wasn't the pope. Imagine that somebody is telling you about how somebody they cared about died (maybe their friend or family member). Now wouldn't you feel sorry if one of your friends came up to you and told you that their cousin died, or one of their other family members?
...If I didn't know the now dead person, I wouldn't care, I would only be sorry for that friend that he lost someone... I wouldn't mourn for the dead person, I would try comfort that friend and try to be helpful of some sort... But yeah, I probably wouldn't show him/her my lack of interest...

Alien426 04-04-2005 03:40 AM

The only channel in Germany that didn't change its program had an excellent 13.8% market share. It showed the movie Die Hard 2: Die Harder.

Ray Jones 04-04-2005 04:51 AM

Surprisingly people tend to become incredibly grumpy or to die after some time. Mainly because of wether to less or too much sex. It's that simple. Really. That's why the devil's in hell, the err.. lord in heaven and Bill Clinton will live for ever. Man. Freud rules.

And maybe the pope did some cool things, but he was against the usage of condoms too (well, i assume that's not because that just sucks when the cardinal blows).
Also i'm not sure what's more worth crying about: the death of one old man or those little children in third world countries. Religions are so self centered sometimes.


*slaps mccoy* Don't be so.. err.... attitudicallyitish! ^^

DrMcCoy 04-04-2005 05:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RayJones
*slaps mccoy*
...Ow... Don't you tempt me, I'll start a geek-sissy-slapping-fight!

Quote:

Originally posted by RayJones
Don't be so.. err.... attitudicallyitish! ^^
...Err, attiwhat?

Joshi 04-04-2005 11:31 AM

Weirdly enough, at some point, I suggested we don't have a religious debate.

Funny how things turn out though.

Kj°len 04-04-2005 02:02 PM

Ok, I would say, perhaps they should have a local channel change to the Pope's death, and perhaps a small announcement on the other channels, telling them to change to the other channel.... No... that wouldn't work, every channel WANTED to get the coverage. It's not the Pope's fault that the channels decided that the Pope's death was more important than Shrek. I'm not even saying you have to think that it IS. But you can't blame the Pope for that.

Quote:

Originally posted by RayJones
Also i'm not sure what's more worth crying about: the death of one old man or those little children in third world countries. Religions are so self centered sometimes.
The children in the third world countries that die are indeed sad, but one of the reasons they die is because no one knows them. I'm not saying they are any better or worse than the Pope, but the Pope touched millions of lives, so we'll say that he had millions of friends. Pope John Paul II didn't ask for almost every channel to mourn for him after he died. He didn't ask for all the people to mourn his death, so you can't blame him. All the thousands upon thousands of people who loved him chose individually to mourn his death, and also be happy that he is somewhere better.

JofaGuht 04-04-2005 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kj°len
...one of the reasons they die is because no one knows them...
Really? This whole time I was blaming mortality!

Okay, I'm being a smartass...but, though it's probably because I'm not Catholic, I care a lot more about the children in third world countries. And if the pope you're mourning over really was a good pope, then he probably would want me to.

It's kind of like McCoy said....you won't really feel sorry for the one who died but for everybody who lost him. I know this Pope was an icon and role model for a lot of people, so I recognize the fact it was turned into a thread. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. But I just don't wholly agree with the celebrity system, and the networks are overplaying stuff, some, if not all, for ratings. And I don't like that. It's using people's emotions.

Though McCoy and Alien has to cool it. It is being judgmental and discriminatory in a way. A lot people feel bad he died, okay? That's it. And those people aren't to blame for programs being interrupted. As for the whole birth control thing, you guys are just debating about Catholicism in general, and not about the pope.

I, personally, couldn't care less. But I don't think anybody should judge me on that matter. Just like they have a right to care, I have a right to not. A family member of mine is very close to death, and that's way more important to me than some religious celebrity.

Guybrush122 04-11-2005 03:33 PM

Sure, he was a nice guy. But his politics on certain things were horrendus, especially contraceptives as well as the whole "child abuse" ordeal...

Kj°len 04-11-2005 08:08 PM

Well, what people need to realize is that the Catholic Church is not like your regular political party or government. If you chose to follow them, they are not a democracy. Contraceptives are banned from the Church, because... *sighs at having to explain the sex thing again*... the Church believes that sex is a beautiful bond between men and women, etc and etc, and it is the whole-hearted giving of oneself to the other. Using Condoms and such is not full-heartedly giving of yourself to others. It's like saying "I want you... except this one part of you, I do no accept." That is the Churches teachings at least.

Joshi 04-12-2005 05:04 AM

"Sounds awfully like a dictatorship to me."

Ray Jones 04-12-2005 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kj°len
Using Condoms and such is not full-heartedly giving of yourself to others. It's like saying "I want you... except this one part of you, I do no accept."
C'mon dude, putting aside the aspect that there might be people who like it with a touch-o-gum(TM), you know that is still crap. Firstly it has nothing to do with acceptance, so it wouldn't be more than "I want you... except this one part of you - PERIOD" and second: where are the males at? So in that case it must be "I want you... but you won't get everything."

In the end it's like not sharing farts.

DrMcCoy 04-12-2005 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RayJones
In the end it's like not sharing farts.
...Bestest sentence in this whole thread!

Gabez 04-12-2005 12:31 PM

I'm curious... what does the Catholic Church have to say about masturbation?

Ray Jones 04-12-2005 12:42 PM

"Always off the body!"

DrMcCoy 04-12-2005 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gabez
I'm curious... what does the Catholic Church have to say about masturbation?
...I'm quite sure they think it's a sin... For whatever reason...

...I once heard someone (a preacherguy standing in front of a shop) saying that you kill the sperms needlessly, though it could have become life... Well, that's pretty flawed, that would mean every woman on this planet kills every month... Moreover, the sperm in the scrotum are constantly disintegrated and built anew so that there won't be any flaws in the DNA (as oposed to the women's ovums, therefore the chance of the baby having any birth defects (like down syndrom) increases with the woman's age)... When I pointed that logical errors out, he said I'm blinded by satans lies and possesed by demons and thus can't see the truth... I laughed at him and walked away...

JofaGuht 04-12-2005 08:49 PM

There's an old Catholic School cliche that says, "Masturbation will make you go blind!" but I don't catholics really think that way, that's just what nuns in the forties said.

Guybrush122 04-12-2005 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kj°len
Well, what people need to realize is that the Catholic Church is not like your regular political party or government. If you chose to follow them, they are not a democracy. Contraceptives are banned from the Church, because... *sighs at having to explain the sex thing again*... the Church believes that sex is a beautiful bond between men and women, etc and etc, and it is the whole-hearted giving of oneself to the other. Using Condoms and such is not full-heartedly giving of yourself to others. It's like saying "I want you... except this one part of you, I do no accept." That is the Churches teachings at least.
An act of sex can't be a beautiful bond unless there are no contraceptives? The Catholic Church needs to get a grip. No I think the real issue is the whole "Jesus says no tab A in slot B unless we're procreating!" Of course, I don't think Jesus ever said that, but whatever.

I just think it's kind of overblown, the whole Pope thing.

Vikinor 04-12-2005 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Joshi
"Sounds awfully like a dictatorship to me."

Being that you have a choice whether or not you want to be a part of that faith it doesn't seem to be a dictatorshisp. It is like marrige. If you get married you should probably not cheat on your wife. That is the bond you share. Religious or not. If you join the Catholic faith then it is sorta like a marrige. You have a bond with the Church now and you have to follow those rules. If you don't like it leave. If you hate your wife get divorced.


As for the Pope. He is dead. Most of the mourning has passed. I don't know what happened in your countries/states, but here we had the flag at half mast. They do that for important people.


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:25 AM.

Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LFNetwork, LLC ©2002-2011 - All rights reserved.