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-   -   How Does Darth Vader use the Force... (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=154302)

Kurgan 10-25-2005 08:00 PM

How Does Darth Vader use the Force...
 
... if he doesn't have hands?


Discuss. ;)

TK-8252 10-25-2005 08:13 PM

You don't need hands. You use your mind.

Except for Sith lightning. For that you need hands (and arms help too ;) ).

El Sitherino 10-25-2005 08:21 PM

His arms are made of flesh from the padawans he slaughtered! :O

Jeff 10-25-2005 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TK-8252
You don't need hands. You use your mind.

Except for Sith lightning. For that you need hands (and arms help too ;) ).

Yeah, what he said.

Vader shows you don't need hands to use the Force when he chokes that officer when he's talking to him through the video in ESB. He just does the choking hand action for effect.

Kurgan 10-26-2005 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Insane Sith
His arms are made of flesh from the padawans he slaughtered! :O

Killer cool, this idea will be forwarded to Lucas... (*hey, wait a minute!*)

Sabretooth 10-26-2005 05:41 AM

The force is all around you, so you don't need to bother making kung-fu poses and such. You just have to think it's happening and it happens. Since it's a movie and a half-action movie at that, you need to have cool poses and fights.

On the lighning topic, I know a secret place from where men can shoot lightning...
*stupid evil laugh*

Kurgan 10-26-2005 08:31 AM

FREEEEEDDOOOOOM!!!

Sorry, couldn't resist (again). ;)

RobQel-Droma 10-28-2005 11:24 AM

As with them all, you don't really need hands. I think it was just something that Lucas made so it would seem better by doing the hand actions. I guess that the only reason that he can't use force lightning is that his arms are metal, and I don't think it would go well shooting thousands of volts through them :lol:. But as for everything else, it isn't like shooting something like lightning through yourself at them, it is using the force to cause something to happen to them. Don't quite know how to describe it, but I hope you understand me.

Kurgan 10-29-2005 06:01 AM

Isn't metal a good conductor of electricity? Then again the materials science of Star Wars is obviously far advanced beyond our's...

Astrotoy7 10-29-2005 11:06 AM

Im with Chase, Im utterly astounded that you have asked this Kurgan.....

There are 3 key quotes from the films that tell you quite clearly what Lucas' take on the force is...

*Obi Wan in ANH "The force is an energy field...etc"
*Yoda in ESB - the "not this crude matter/size matters not" speech
*Qui Gon in TPM - the whole midichlorians deal

However, even when the body is gone(and thus ending the symbiosis ith the midichlorians), the films show us jedi still can have a presence in the force ie. obi wan, yoda, anakin, qui gon. Thus, the force is more than just this physical symbiosis ??

mtfbwya

Kurgan 10-29-2005 12:08 PM

And yet, people say Vader can't use lightning because of his artificial hands, and that he's less powerful because he's cybernetic. So don't be too shocked. ;)

El Sitherino 10-29-2005 01:51 PM

I still like my padawan flesh idea.

RobQel-Droma 10-29-2005 02:33 PM

I don't think that there was ever a official explanation as to why Vader could use the force but no lightning due to no hands.

TK-8252 10-29-2005 02:36 PM

From the RotS visual dictionary:

"As a result of having artificial arms, Darth Vader will never be able to conjure Sith lightning - nor be invulnerable to it."

Jeff 10-29-2005 03:46 PM

^

That's probably why the lightning hurt him so much in RotJ. It's possible anyway.

The Source 11-03-2005 07:07 PM

My Theory:
Every time Vader uses the Force, to do some serious damage, his emotions usually drive the intensity of his power. Therefore, one could conclude that all he needs is hate or pain.

Brottor 11-04-2005 05:05 PM

I have never heard officially that his artificial arms keep him from using force lightning, but I have always liked and excepted that explanation. Most other aspects of the force use the mind alone. I don't think Vadar lost the ability to do anything other than that. Just makes sense to me.

Kurgan 11-06-2005 04:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TK-8252
From the RotS visual dictionary:

"As a result of having artificial arms, Darth Vader will never be able to conjure Sith lightning - nor be invulnerable to it."

Which explains nothing, based on what you all have said, hence my question!

So for some reason you need hands to use lightning. I wonder why?

As for "being invulnerable to it" part that's an obvious load of BS. He can clearly block energy (Han's blaster bolts) with his cybernetic hands, and he could easily block the lightning with his saber like Obi-Wan and Mace Windu did.

T10 11-06-2005 06:21 AM

Why does no-one just wear yellow rubber gloves? It would make life so much simpler.

Sabretooth 11-06-2005 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T10
Why does no-one just wear yellow rubber gloves? It would make life so much simpler.

Star Wars can use projectile weaponry too, which is faster and more powerful, but what the heck? It's all for the coolness.

TK-8252 11-06-2005 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurgan
So for some reason you need hands to use lightning. I wonder why?

Because the lightning is actually coming out of your fingers? I think you need hands in order to have fingers!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurgan
As for "being invulnerable to it" part that's an obvious load of BS.

In RotJ he gets zapped with Palp's lightning, so apparently it's not BS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurgan
and he could easily block the lightning with his saber like Obi-Wan and Mace Windu did.

And what if he doesn't have his lightsaber? :)

Kurgan 11-06-2005 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TK-8252
Because the lightning is actually coming out of your fingers? I think you need hands in order to have fingers!

And why can't it actually come out of your artificial fingers? What if you lop off a Jedi's fingers, can he no longer throw lightning, if he has a palm? How many fingers are needed to toss lightning bolts?

Would an alien Jedi that doesn't have fingers be unable to use Force Lightning?

If you can toss force energy in the form of push or pull without hands, I don't see why can't do the same with lightning. Even when Yoda "absorbs" lightning it appears he's projecting a little energy shield thingy in front of his palm.


Quote:

In RotJ he gets zapped with Palp's lightning, so apparently it's not BS.
He gets zapped by Dooku's (presumably weaker) lightning in AOTC, with two good hands and not a cybernetic part on him.

Also Mace Windu deflects all of Palpatine's lightning attacks until Anakin cuts off his hand, then he gets zapped. So nothing conclusive that way.

Quote:

And what if he doesn't have his lightsaber? :)
I say then he could block it with his hand, just like he blocked Han's blaster shots. The only reason he didn't block the lightning Palpatine was throwing at him "had his hands full" putting the squeeze on him and preparing to throw him over the edge.

I realize this goes against the "official" explanation, but honestly, their excuse makes no logical sense, it's just stated.

TK-8252 11-06-2005 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurgan
And why can't it actually come out of your artificial fingers? What if you lop off a Jedi's fingers, can he no longer throw lightning, if he has a palm? How many fingers are needed to toss lightning bolts?

Because you need midichlorians?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurgan
Would an alien Jedi that doesn't have fingers be unable to use Force Lightning?

I'd assume so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurgan
If you can toss force energy in the form of push or pull without hands, I don't see why can't do the same with lightning. Even when Yoda "absorbs" lightning it appears he's projecting a little energy shield thingy in front of his palm.

Where do you suggest the lightning comes out of? Unlike pushing, pulling, etc., lightning is actually created, not just manipulated. So where does it come out of if not your fingers?

And Yoda absorbs the lightning by using his hand. If Yoda didn't have hands, he couldn't block it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurgan
He gets zapped by Dooku's (presumably weaker) lightning in AOTC, with two good hands and not a cybernetic part on him.

Of course, he wasn't on guard. Even if Vader was on guard, he still couldn't block it without his lightsaber. Only midichlorians can block the Force.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurgan
I say then he could block it with his hand, just like he blocked Han's blaster shots. The only reason he didn't block the lightning Palpatine was throwing at him "had his hands full" putting the squeeze on him and preparing to throw him over the edge.

Blaster shots aren't Force energy. They're laser bolts.

Kurgan 11-06-2005 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TK-8252
Because you need midichlorians?

And midichlorians are stored in the fingers?

Quote:

I'd assume so.
Pwned! I think that's pretty silly though, that Force Lightning requires a certain body part to make it possible. Oh well I guess Star Wars doesn't have to make sense. ;)


Quote:

Where do you suggest the lightning comes out of? Unlike pushing, pulling, etc., lightning is actually created, not just manipulated. So where does it come out of if not your fingers?
I suggest it comes from the same place the other powers come from.

Electricity is defined as:

Quote:

The physical phenomena arising from the behavior of electrons and protons that is caused by the attraction of particles with opposite charges and the repulsion of particles with the same charge.
So you're saying that Force Lightning comes out of nothing, but that the other manifestations of the Force are mere "manipulation"? That's silly. If the Force is an energy field, then Force Lightning comes from manipulation of this energy field just like all the other "powers."

Quote:

And Yoda absorbs the lightning by using his hand. If Yoda didn't have hands, he couldn't block it.
He could block it with a saber, which proves that you need not block it with hands. And if you can block it with a saber (which is an object, not a body part) then you could potentially block it with another object such as an artificial hand. Simple logic.

Yet you're saying that you need a certain body part to use lightning and also to block it.

Quote:

Of course, he wasn't on guard. Even if Vader was on guard, he still couldn't block it without his lightsaber. Only midichlorians can block the Force.
Not necessarily. Some people can resist Jedi Mind Tricks. Is that due to midichlorians? And apparently some technology is resistant to the Force as well (I'm only speaking of the movies here incidentally). Is that due to midichlorian blockage?

Besides, a lightsaber blade can block force lightning. A lightsaber is technology. There's no midichlorians inside it!

Quote:

Blaster shots aren't Force energy. They're laser bolts.
And what is lightning if not energy? It can be blocked by technology (a lightsaber), so it stands to reason that blocking it with your hand of flesh is not the only defense against it. In fact it could be argued that blaster bolts do more physical damage than Force lightning has demonstrated in the movies, so it's actually more impressive. If you can block a more powerful energy, then it stands to reason you can block a weaker energy.

TK-8252 11-06-2005 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurgan
And midichlorians are stored in the fingers?

Yup, and all throughout your body. Just like Qui-Gon said... they're in all your cells.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurgan
Pwned! I think that's pretty silly though, that Force Lightning requires a certain body part to make it possible. Oh well I guess Star Wars doesn't have to make sense. ;)

Exactly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurgan
I suggest it comes from the same place the other powers come from.

So just out of the air? Or perhaps you are suggesting a Force "thunderstorm" power that spawns thunder clouds, and the lightning can come out of there? ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurgan
He could block it with a saber, which proves that you need not block it with hands. And if you can block it with a saber (which is an object, not a body part) then you could potentially block it with another object such as an artificial hand. Simple logic.

If such artificial hand were made out of a pure beam of energy like a lightsaber, then yes it could. But we know that Vader's suit didn't give him energy beams for arms. Therefore they don't work like that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurgan
Not necessarily. Some people can resist Jedi Mind Tricks. Is that due to midichlorians?

Totally different. Resistance to lightning is a physical ability; resistance to mind tricks is an intellectual characteristic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurgan
And apparently some technology is resistant to the Force as well (I'm only speaking of the movies here incidentally). Is that due to midichlorian blockage?

Not sure what you refer to here...

Kurgan 11-07-2005 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TK-8252
Yup, and all throughout your body. Just like Qui-Gon said... they're in all your cells.

But he never says that only the midis in your hands are responsible for Force powers. Otherwise as I said in the OP, "how can he use the Force"... since he lacks physical hands! Why can't the midis in some other part of his body enable lightning? You haven't addressed that issue.

Quote:

Exactly.
And if a more plausible explanation exists, what's wrong with exploring that one? A lot of the official material is completely bogus. Some of it gets "corrected" eventually, some of it merely overwritten by something else of Lucas's creations. Can't we question it in the meantime?

Perhaps Palpatine just refused to teach Vader lightning, or it wasn't his style. People often say "well we never see Anakin use lightning so he must be unable to use it." By that same logic we could assume that Palpatine is unable to use Force Choke, because we never see him use it!

Quote:

So just out of the air? Or perhaps you are suggesting a Force "thunderstorm" power that spawns thunder clouds, and the lightning can come out of there? ;)
Why not, its the same place all the other Force abilities come from. Where does the Force Lightning come from, if not from the energy field that is the Force? Are you suggesting his hands are car batteries? And in real life lightning comes from clouds, but you can generate electricity without them, obviously.

Quote:

If such artificial hand were made out of a pure beam of energy like a lightsaber, then yes it could.
You act as if nothing can stop a bolt of lightning except a lightsaber blade. You know this is patently false. This is just an example of one object that can do it, to demonstrate that you don't need "Midichlorians" to stop a bolt of Lighting... generated by the Force or otherwise. For example in Star Wars you can stop energy with shields, with force fields, and with dense materials. For example Vader's armor and armored surfaces resist blaster bolts and lightsabers.

Quote:

But we know that Vader's suit didn't give him energy beams for arms. Therefore they don't work like that.
And yet, we know you can stop energy with other things besides lightsaber blades. In fact, there are quite a few ways to stop them. It's not like Lightning is a universal solvent that just burns through anything, regardless of strength. Lightning seems weaker than blaster bolts and lightsabers, and blaster bolts and lightsabers can be stopped by shields. I'd wager that shields can stop Force Lightning.

Quote:

Totally different. Resistance to lightning is a physical ability; resistance to mind tricks is an intellectual characteristic.
Is it? If all Jedi powers are "generated by the mind" (what, is the brain a giant battery that stores energy fields?) then lightning operates on similar principles to the mind trick. If one is a physical attack and one a mental attack I can see your distinction. You can't resist a Force Push with your mind. Or can you? I think your understanding of "The Force" would have to answer that question. If a Jedi resists another force power is he using his mind or is he using his hands? Notice that even during Mind Tricks Jedi use hand gestures. ;)


Quote:

Not sure what you refer to here...
Lightsabers resist Force Lightning. Shields resist Jedi powers apparently, or else why didn't Obi-Wan or Qui Gon try to use the Force to bypass the Droideka shields or the red fields while they were dueling Maul, or the "ray shields" that encased Anakin and Obi-Wan? Obi-Wan appears unable to escape from the "energy cage" (whatever that blue stuff was) he's held in by the Seperatists when he's captured on Geonosis. And finally, Droids resist mind tricks (okay that last one was a joke!). There may be other examples, but those are off the top of my head. ;)

El Sitherino 11-07-2005 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurgan
As for "being invulnerable to it" part that's an obvious load of BS. He can clearly block energy (Han's blaster bolts) with his cybernetic hands, and he could easily block the lightning with his saber like Obi-Wan and Mace Windu did.

So... you never saw RotJ it seems. The lightning destroyed his life support system, and the thing about him not being able to use force lightning because of his arms is because the energy is projected from the flesh.

Metal + high voltage of electricity = retardation on ice.

The blaster blocking "with his hand" was for show. He's merely creating a barrier using the force. He could technically do the same for lightning, but that doesn't mean he's invulnerable to it, just means he knows how to keep it from messing him up. But the thing is he sacrifices himself to destroy Palpatine and save his son, redeeming himself and destroying the Sith.

TK-8252 11-07-2005 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurgan
But he never says that only the midis in your hands are responsible for Force powers. Otherwise as I said in the OP, "how can he use the Force"... since he lacks physical hands! Why can't the midis in some other part of his body enable lightning? You haven't addressed that issue.

Well, where DO you want it to come out of? Eyes? Toes? Groin? :p

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurgan
Why not, its the same place all the other Force abilities come from.

This is different. All other Force powers are invisible, such as pushing/pulling or making objects float, etc. Lightning is the only visible power, which is why it has to come from SOMEWHERE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurgan
Where does the Lightning come from, if not from the energy field that is the Force? Are you suggesting his hands are car batteries?

It comes from the fingers. Why it can only come from the fingers? Because it looks badass, period.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurgan
You act as if nothing can stop a bolt of lightning except a lightsaber blade. You know this is patently false. This is just an example of one object that can do it, to demonstrate that you don't need "Midichlorians" to stop a bolt of Lighting... generated by the Force or otherwise. For example in Star Wars you can stop energy with shields, with force fields, and with dense materials. For example Vader's armor and armored surfaces resist blaster bolts and lightsabers.

We've only seen a lightsaber used to deflect lightning (except Yoda absorbing it), but what does a lightsaber have in common with shields, forcefields, etc. They're all beams of pure, raw energy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurgan
Is it? If all Jedi powers are "generated by the mind" (what, is the brain a giant battery that stores energy fields?) then lightning operates on similar principles to the mind trick.

All Jedi powers are generated by the mind, yes. Lightning is a power specific to Sith, therefore it is an exception.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurgan
If a Jedi resists another force power is he using his mind or is he using his hands?

Resisting another Force power, like what, when Obi and Vader are pushing against eachother during their Mustafar duel? In that case they're both using their minds to push against eachother.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurgan
Notice that even during Mind Tricks Jedi use hand gestures. ;)

A lot of times hand gestures are used, but are not needed. For example, Vader often gestures when he chokes, and other times he doesn't. You don't need to make a "pushing" gesture to push with the Force, but they usually do because it helps with concentration.

El Sitherino 11-07-2005 12:53 AM

The motions were generally done to convey what was being done to the audience.
Lightning is the only force power that requires a hand gesture because it requires direction and production.

Kurgan 11-07-2005 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Insane Sith
So... you never saw RotJ it seems. The lightning destroyed his life support system, and the thing about him not being able to use force lightning because of his arms is because the energy is projected from the flesh.

So then a person with no hands can't use the Force. Thank you for playing.
;)

Quote:

Metal + high voltage of electricity = retardation on ice.
What makes you think Vader's armor can't resist electricity? And before you go "well duh, 'cause he died" realize that Vader is not encased from head to toe in metal, most of his suit appears to be some kind of cloth. But could he use his armor gauntlets to block lightning? I don't see why not. After all, another part of his armor, his should pad, resisted Luke's lightsaber. That proves it's stronger than say, Super Battledroid armor.

Quote:

The blaster blocking "with his hand" was for show. He's merely creating a barrier using the force.
Is Yoda blocking lightning "with his hand" also for show?

Why couldn't Yoda block the lightning with his a$$? (I mean for argument's sake)

Quote:

He could technically do the same for lightning, but that doesn't mean he's invulnerable to it,
I agree. The quote is stupid to use the term "invulnerable." Who is "invulnerable"? Somebody encased in a force field would be "invulnerable" to a lightning attack, but the thing is, "invulnerable" implies something without limit. If you could keep generating energy for a long long period of time, perhaps the shield would eventually be drained and then you'd be vulnerable. Or perhaps a sufficiently powerful charge could drain the shield more quickly. Who knows. Did they say "Mace Windu would never be invulnerable to Lightning" or "Yoda would never be invulnerable to Lightning"? Clearly neither of them were, despite their ability to block it they both were severally zapped.

Quote:

just means he knows how to keep it from messing him up. But the thing is he sacrifices himself to destroy Palpatine and save his son, redeeming himself and destroying the Sith.
No argument there. Rather the argument is being made that something about Vader prevents him from using or blocking Force lightning. I don't buy that excuse.

To use another example, most Jedi are perfectly capable of blocking blaster bolts. They can block them all day long, we've seen it. And yet, these same Jedi can also be killed by blaster bolts. How do we explain that?

Yoda is capable of blocking lightning. But he's also capable of being zapped. Ditto with Mace Windu. So if Vader can be mortally wounded by Lightning, that doesn't mean he is incapable of blocking it, or even using it himself. I would attribute his lack of use of the power as lack of knowledge, not something in his physical structure that prevents it.

Kurgan 11-07-2005 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Insane Sith
The motions were generally done to convey what was being done to the audience.
Lightning is the only force power that requires a hand gesture because it requires direction and production.

And other Force powers don't?

Kurgan 11-07-2005 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TK-8252
Well, where DO you want it to come out of? Eyes? Toes? Groin? :p

If you insist that it HAS to be projected from a body part, and you don't have a hand to use, why not? Any body part will do. I'm sure the reason Lucas doesn't have Yoda do pelvic thrusts at his enemies is his own sense of decorum, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be possible. ;)

Quote:

This is different. All other Force powers are invisible, such as pushing/pulling or making objects float, etc. Lightning is the only visible power, which is why it has to come from SOMEWHERE.
Why? The invisible powers "have to come from somewhere" too, don't they? They're all coming from the energy field of the Force. Why couldn't one make a bolt of lightning appear and zap somebody? If the other gestures are "just for show" then so too can the Lightning "gestures."


Quote:

It comes from the fingers. Why it can only come from the fingers? Because it looks badass, period.
Okay, so you would NOT argue that chopping off Palpatine's fingers would render him unable to toss lightning anymore.

Quote:

We've only seen a lightsaber used to deflect lightning (except Yoda absorbing it), but what does a lightsaber have in common with shields, forcefields, etc. They're all beams of pure, raw energy.
We don't exactly know what a lightsaber blade is, but for the sake of argument let's say it has something to do with energy. Fair enough, however, we've also seen non-energetic items resist lightsabers and blaster bolts...things like body armor, starship hulls, blast doors, walls, etc.

Quote:

All Jedi powers are generated by the mind, yes. Lightning is a power specific to Sith, therefore it is an exception.
So Lightning is generated by the fingers? Interesting. If these other powers are generated by the mind, why don't the Jedi "head butt" (head bang?) their powers, and instead wave their hands or fingers?

If it's all just for show, then again I say why can't the Lightning gestures also be "just for show"?

Quote:

Resisting another Force power, like what, when Obi and Vader are pushing against eachother during their Mustafar duel? In that case they're both using their minds to push against eachother.
And yet they are both using their hands as well. Why not resist with your mind and push your lightsaber to slash the other guy's raised palm (since he's being an idiot putting it out in the first place).

Now during all this if we're just going to argue "dramatic purposes" then we might as well argue that the reason we don't have everyone using lightning is because Lucas wanted to make the Emperor's powers seem exotic and unique. Grip has also become Vader's "signature move." It gives him character. That doesn't mean he's the only one who ever uses it of course, but we associate it with him.

Quote:

A lot of times hand gestures are used, but are not needed. For example, Vader often gestures when he chokes, and other times he doesn't. You don't need to make a "pushing" gesture to push with the Force, but they usually do because it helps with concentration.
When have we seen somebody Force Push and NOT use a hand gesture? Or Pull for that matter? Force powers used without gestures seem to be the exception rather than the rule.

El Sitherino 11-07-2005 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurgan
So then a person with no hands can't use the Force. Thank you for playing.
;)

Learn to read.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurgan
What makes you think Vader's armor can't resist electricity?

Because the movie shows as much. And my metal + electricity thing is in regards to his arms.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurgan
Is Yoda blocking lightning "with his hand" also for show?

Pretty much, yeah.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurgan
Why couldn't Yoda block the lightning with his a$$? (I mean for argument's sake)

Because that's retarded for many reasons and you should know better than to ask such a stupid question.



Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurgan
To use another example, most Jedi are perfectly capable of blocking blaster bolts. They can block them all day long, we've seen it. And yet, these same Jedi can also be killed by blaster bolts. How do we explain that?

Because using the force requires concentration.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurgan
Yoda is capable of blocking lightning. But he's also capable of being zapped. Ditto with Mace Windu.

Uh.. okay.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurgan
So if Vader can be mortally wounded by Lightning, that doesn't mean he is incapable of blocking it,

No one said he can't block it, only that he can't use it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurgan
or even using it himself. I would attribute his lack of use of the power as lack of knowledge, not something in his physical structure that prevents it.

I still buy the scientific fact that metal arms projecting electricity = jackass stunt. It's like putting foil in the microwave.

El Sitherino 11-07-2005 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurgan
And other Force powers don't?

Correct, all you need for the other powers is mind. Lightning requires physical actions.

Sabretooth 11-07-2005 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Insane Sith
Correct, all you need for the other powers is mind. Lightning requires physical actions.

Yeah, but can't you think of lightning originating from somewhere else. I mean, can't you think it and lightning shoots in from the window, or better yet, the target just gets instantly electrocuted, like Force Choke + Lightning.

Kurgan 11-07-2005 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Insane Sith
Because the movie shows as much. And my metal + electricity thing is in regards to his arms.

I believe I already explained why this isn't a given.

Quote:

Pretty much, yeah.
At least you admit it. ;) So if the hands aren't required to BLOCK lightning, why should they be required to USE it?

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Because that's retarded for many reasons and you should know better than to ask such a stupid question.
But it effectively illustrates my point. Since it's just for show he could block it with his tongue, his ear lobe, or with no body part just as effectively.

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Because using the force requires concentration.
So if Vader concentrates, he can block Lightning. Excellent!

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No one said he can't block it, only that he can't use it.
The VD says he he can't block it, though with totally bogus wording ("will never be invulnerable to it").

Quote:

I still buy the scientific fact that metal arms projecting electricity = jackass stunt. It's like putting foil in the microwave.
And you assume a scientifically advanced culture like Star Wars can't produce a metallic substance that resists lightning. We know they can produce dense metals that can resist more powerful forms of energy.

El Sitherino 11-07-2005 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurgan
I believe I already explained why this isn't a given.

So then why do we see his skeletal structure? Why is his suit a bit smokey while the Emperor's lightning is hitting him? I could go on, but it seems you refuse to accept the movie.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurgan
So if the hands aren't required to BLOCK lightning, why should they be required to USE it?

"Hands" are the guides and generators for the force lightning, the only other plausible place for lightning to come from would be the "feet".


Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurgan
But it effectively illustrates my point.

No, you can't block with your ass because taking your sight off of your opponent is stupid and will get you killed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurgan
Since it's just for show he could block it with his tongue, his ear lobe

He could, but generally if he's putting up a barrier with help from his physical strength, the arms would be a better choice. ;)

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Originally Posted by Kurgan
or with no body part just as effectively.

True, but maybe Lucas or his concept department felt it'd be more intense with him using his arms.


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Originally Posted by Kurgan
So if Vader concentrates, he can block Lightning. Excellent!

Yes, but if he did get hit by it, he'd die (RoTJ), where as someone unlike him would live.


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Originally Posted by Kurgan
The VD says he he can't block it, though with totally bogus wording ("will never be invulnerable to it").

I have a feeling they mean he wouldn't be able to walk away from it like he did when he was fleshy in AoTC, or Luke in RoTJ. Instead he'll die because his suit is effectively a mobile iron lung.


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Originally Posted by Kurgan
And you assume a scientifically advanced culture like Star Wars can't produce a metallic substance that resists lightning.

We all know the Emperor totally made that junk illegal, it'd work against him Lightning spamming the hell out of everyone that crosses him. :xp:

Anyway, resistance isn't the problem, it's conductivity. But I'll play along.

I personally don't care if they can or can't, hell that doesn't even matter because as far as evidence shows they didn't do that with his arms. Perhaps they were on a budget even though he is Vader.

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Originally Posted by Kurgan
We know they can produce dense metals that can resist more powerful forms of energy.

It may resist it, but it might probably conduct it which is the problem.

Kurgan 11-07-2005 02:32 PM

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Originally Posted by Insane Sith
So then why do we see his skeletal structure? Why is his suit a bit smokey while the Emperor's lightning is hitting him? I could go on, but it seems you refuse to accept the movie.

You're missing my point entirely. I never said that he was invulnerable to lightning. In fact, saying ANYONE is invulnerable to lightning is misleading, which is why I call BS on the VD reference.

Mace Windu's skeletal structure also is displayed when he's getting fried by Palpatine. He screams in agony. He's clearly being hurt by the force attack.
And yet, earlier he was blocking the attacks quite admirably. So rather than assuming that Vader must be completely defenseless against lightning, why not say that he was "distracted" and unable to block it in the current circumstances (just as Mace was distracted by the fact that his hand had just been lopped off by Anakin's surprise attack). Yoda also gets zapped, and yet we see him block lightning quite easily in a former circumstance, and with some difficulty later on.

There's no reason to assume that Vader could not block lightning if he was "prepared," just as other Jedi have been shown to do.

I am not refusing to accept the movie. Rather I'm refusing to accept a BS interpretation of the movie from a piece of EU literature. People here that support it even seem to be confused about what it really means. Honestly the statement appears to be a clumsy tacked-on explanation for why we never see Vader use Force Lightning in the movies. It's weak at best, and ignores over evidence from the movie that suggests it could be otherwise.

Vader can block blaster energy with his armored gauntlets. He can block a lightsaber blow on his shoulder armor. His entire body is not armor. Let me make that perfectly clear.

Obi-Wan blocks Dooku's lightning with his lightsaber. Obi-Wan's entire body is not covered in lightsabers. Yet he can use the one lightsaber he has to block the lightning. In the same way Vader could use his armored gauntlets to block a lightning bolt. I would say the reason Vader is injured from Palpatine's attack (though the cause of death was hastened by Luke's removal of his mask combined with the physical exhaustion from his duel which probably sapped his strength in the force to stay alive...) is because the Lightning hits him in several places. If it had ONLY hit armored portions of his body then he probably wouldn't have recieved the damage he did. Much in the same way that if Han had gotten lucky and nailed Vader in the unarmored portions of his suit, he probably would have killed him. After all, we know Jedi can be killed by a few well placed blaster bolts.

And if Vader doesn't need his hands to block lightning he could block it with the force, if he wasn't distracted by his crushing the Emperor and tossing him into the pit.

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"Hands" are the guides and generators for the force lightning, the only other plausible place for lightning to come from would be the "feet".
How do you know this though? Is this in the RPG? Does hacking off a person's fingers (Mafia style) render a Sith Lord unable to use the power anymore? Say his fingers get chopped off, he can't use the power anymore you say? And if he gets an artificial hand, he can't use it now? But what if he got fingers of flesh grafted on, could he use the power again?

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No, you can't block with your ass because taking your sight off of your opponent is stupid and will get you killed.
Wrong. Jedi can "see" with the Force. We've seen Jedi block things behind their backs, AND we've seen them turn their backs on their opponents in order to attack (the famous "spin" move that Luke and Obi-Wan both use). At least you're admitting the possibility that it can happen, but only doesn't because of some tactical consideration. There's a large difference.

Aayla Secura has her back to the Troopers and she gets mowed down easily. Yoda has his back to his Troopers and he beheads them easily.

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He could, but generally if he's putting up a barrier with help from his physical strength, the arms would be a better choice. ;)
Do you realize that the gluteus maximus is one of the largest muscles in the body? Plus it's backed up the the legs, which are stronger than the arms. Yoda's low center of gravity might also work to his advantage in this regard.
At least you're admitting the possibilty. ;)

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True, but maybe Lucas or his concept department felt it'd be more intense with him using his arms.
But imagine the comic value if he were blocking it with his little green butt. C'mon, you know he'd bring the house down. Lucas is that kind of genius!


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Yes, but if he did get hit by it, he'd die (RoTJ), where as someone unlike him would live.
Why, exactly? Totally unarmored victims have gotten hit with lightning and not died (in fact nobody in all the movies have died as a direct result of lightning hits). Vader was supposedly dying ("Nothing can stop that now"), probably due to his life support system being damaged in the fight. Much of his suit is exposed, no better than cloth for protection. If the armored parts of him were the only ones struck I'd be hesitant to think he'd have died from it. Just like in my example of Han Solo shooting Vader in the "soft parts" rather than his hard parts (armored gauntlets protecting robot limbs).

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I have a feeling they mean he wouldn't be able to walk away from it like he did when he was fleshy in AoTC, or Luke in RoTJ. Instead he'll die because his suit is effectively a mobile iron lung.
Who knows what they meant. "Invulnerable" implies no effect whatsoever. Superman is "invulnerable" to bullets. They just bounce off him and he doesn't even care. He doesn't get laid up in the hospital but eventually recover after being shot. Vader's suit may be his life support, but parts of it are protected and MUCH stronger than the skin of a normal being.

If Obi-Wan were struck in the shoulder with Luke's lightsabe swing, he'd lose an arm or possibly the whole upper part of his torso. If Coleman Trebore was shot in the hand with a blaster, he'd be in serious trouble (that actually happened!). Vader's armor may not be invincible, but it's much more resistant protection than any other Jedi we've seen, so I think you underestimate the amount of damage he could take.

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We all know the Emperor totally made that junk illegal, it'd work against him Lightning spamming the hell out of everyone that crosses him. :xp:
Good idea. That's probably also why we don't see personal shield generators or ray shields anymore. But then we do see blaster and lightsaber resistant metals and metallic substances still. And both do demonstratably more damage to physical targets than Force Lightning.

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Anyway, resistance isn't the problem, it's conductivity. But I'll play along.
I know what you're thinking. You're thinking that Vader's suit is one giant lightning rod, and so therefore lightning hits him in one spot, it goes through and is amplified through his entire body. The only problem with this theory is that we see the same "bone glow" effect on Mace Windu. So Vader's case is not "special" (ie: we need not assume that his armor is what killed him by "cooking him inside his shell" without which he would have survived). Rather the gizmos exposed on his body (such as let's say the chest plate, which looks important) can be hit and physically damaged by the bolts, since they are unprotected. The cloth fibers covering his body seem to offer no protection from the lightning and so his flesh is zapped too (as would any other person). But his armor itself was intact.

Another problem with the "lightning rod" theory is that it assumes his armor is conductive. The lightsaber hit of Luke's should have cut through his armor, or at least melted the shoulder piece. Yet it didn't. Han's shots should have turned Vader's gloves molten, or heated them up so much that the robot hands inside would be damaged (Luke's robot hand gets shot and it survived, but it was only shot ONCE, not multiple times by Han's blaster which is supposedly a modified high powered firearm). Most agree that Vader did use the Force at least partially to block Han's shots (or at least direct them into his palm away from the rest of his body), but we do see some smoking effect and sparks fly off of his other hand, which he whips back. Vader yelps when Luke smashes him on the shoulder and we see sparks, etc. So it may hurt, but it at least stops and reduces the damage inflicted.

"Ah ha!" you are thinking, if the shoulder was HURT, it must mean the energy went through the armor to injure his flesh underneath! Perhaps, but it may be equally possible that the armor absorbed the energy and heat from the hit, but not the physical impact (so rather than being cut in half, it was like being slugged by a baseball bat). He may have been reacting to the actual blow (the kinetic energy of Luke's hit), not the energy bleeding through.

Perhaps Palpy's lightning would have turned Vader into a charred cinder had he not had the suit on, we don't know. The armor did provide some protection. The problem was that it had exposed areas, which allowed his vital systems to be damaged directly. So I'm not arguing the lightning didn't hurt him, only against this idea that his entire suit is the same and thus he couldn't block anything with it, or use lightning himself if he knew how.

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I personally don't care if they can or can't, hell that doesn't even matter because as far as evidence shows they didn't do that with his arms. Perhaps they were on a budget even though he is Vader.
Perhaps. But I'd say Vader's armor appears demonstratably stronger than Stormtrooper or Battledroid armor with the blows he takes in the films, so it's definately higher quality. It doesn't render him invulnerable, but it certainly makes him a hardier target than your average joe in the SW universe. Luke how hard Luke has to swing to cut off Vader's hand in ROTJ. He uses all his strength in a fury and the blade goes through and hacks a guard rail in the process. And yet, the same gauntlet withstood shots from Han Solo's gun. It's resistant. Not indestructable, but it shows that they can create materials that offer some protection (much in the way a real world "bullet proof vest" provides protection from bullets but can still be penetrated by multiple hits or large enough calibur).

Anyway, poor or even non-conductive materials can already be done in real life to some extent. I imagine an infinitely more advanced society like Star Wars is capable of even greater things. Their armoring against blasters, lightsabers and other energy weapons (even without shields) indicates that it's well within their grasp. The hits Vader shrugs off indicates at least some minimal care went into the creation of his own armor. I mean for crying out loud, blasters leave smoking HOLES in stormtrooper armor. Battle Droids are cleft in two with glowing edges. Vader's armor gets a little dirty and smokes a little, at worst (with the one exception of Luke cutting off his hand.... which almost looks like its more torn off than cut off... notice how the wires sticking out aren't melted).

JerAir 11-12-2005 03:24 PM

I'm too lazy to read everything everyone has said so far, but I have played the RotS DS game and at the end it shows Vader using lightning-without his hands, just coming out of his torso and extremities. It was the part when he found hout he'd killed Padme, where in the movie, he crushes everything.

On a sidenote, dunno if this has been said before, Vader must have lost a whole lot of midichlorians when his extremities were chopped off by Obi at Mustafar. He must have had less than 50% the midichlorians he had before his arm was chopped off by Dooku.

I have read the RotS book, and it said the suit breathed and pretty much talked for Vader, but in RotJ, he is able to speak a little to Luke and breathe for a short time after his suit gets practically destroyed by Palp's lightning.

In my opinion, Vader would have owned Luke if he wasn't so cocky to try to kill Obi when Obi had the high ground. Obi might have died, Vader would have more midichlorians, and therefore, with Luke's crash course on the force and lightsaber handling, Vader would have put Luke to shame and killed him easily- but of course, he was holding back a little because Luke was his son. He would not have been pinned and had his hand chopped off by Luke in RotJ if he never tried to kill Obi- even when Obi had the advantage, and he would never had to wear that suit, and therefore, again, would not have lost so many midichlorians

MachineCult 11-12-2005 04:01 PM

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Originally Posted by JerAir
...dunno if this has been said before, Vader must have lost a whole lot of midichlorians when his extremities were chopped off by Obi at Mustafar. He must have had less than 50% the midichlorians he had before his arm was chopped off by Dooku.

As it was said in TPM, Anakins midichlorian count was off the charts, higher than Yodas.
and I think you have the whole midichlorian thing wrong, thats not really how it works, what you are saying is like saying if you get a bad cut and loose some blood you'll never have the same amount ever again.

The loss of a limb (or all of them) wouldn't mean the permanent reduction of the number of midichlorians in a body.


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