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Servercat 12-17-2005 07:32 PM

How could the CIS lose?
 
This is a bit of random debate I have with some friends, which was sparked mainly by the clone lab and droid factory sequences in AoTC. So I thought I would bring it here and see what you all think. Our debate is, that it seems rather weird that the CIS could lose the war.

Sheer mass of numbers and cheaper logistics would suggest that the CIS could surmount anything the Republic could muster. The clone troopers which appraise the bulk of the Republic's army, while superior fighters in terms of skills and tactics, take an extremely long period of time to grow and train.

Even assuming the 'accelerated' maturation techniques could bring a clone from zygote to adult in a year, then proceeded to hand said Clone a blaster and told them to go shoot something. It still makes them vastly more irreplaceable then the ranks amongst the Droid army. That's not even taking into account, the insane cost of growing and feeding millions upon millions of troopers. This isn't even taking into account, that the fact that since the Clones are humans, they are vulnerable to disease, sickness and have to treated for injuries prior and after an engagement.

Contrawise, excluding the more advanced Droid models (like Droidekas and IG-100's), the droids can be produced en mass, rapidly.(In say, a month at worst) They require no more maintenance other then to keep them operational. If they are damaged or destroyed in combat, oh well, they can be recycled cheaply for new droids.

The only real logical swing factors, it seems to me, are the Jedi and Chancellor(Emperor) Palpatine. The Jedi would undoubtably increase CIS casualties, and operating costs but in the end would eventually get trampled by the vastly superior CIS numbers.

The only really thing that would cripple and likely end the CIS ambitions are decapitations of CIS leadership..unfortunately, unless you count an occasional hot headed Padawan or Knight, I don't really see Jedi doing this. *shrug*

Which means, that any orders for decapitations would have to come from the main Republic Military, which are under the control of Palpatine. While it was Palpatine’s intention to create war, so that he could gain control, I got the impression he didn’t really care which Army actually won control of the Republic. In fact, it seems more in Sith nature to see which army was the strongest, which is more logically the CIS.

But those are just my thoughts. How about you guys?

Commander Obi-Wan 12-17-2005 07:36 PM

They lost because the "leader" of the CIS is the Supreme Chancellor Palpatine/Darth Didious, which is the "leader" of the Republic. It was a deception, so he could become the ruler of the universe.

TK-8252 12-17-2005 07:52 PM

The droids lose hands down because they have no leadership in the field. No leadership = fail.

They did have Grevious who started turning the tables, but he was put in command too late in the war for him to win it.

hk47 12-18-2005 05:54 PM

the chancellor should have kept the droid army it was winning aswell

SirLancelot 12-18-2005 06:38 PM

The clones are simply superior soldiers. They were the pinnacle of military perfection in terms of their training and development. Not to mention, clonetroopers could think creatively, unlike droids, who for the most part, went off a series of preprogrammed instructions.

Also, total reliance on a central command entity was a liabilty.

hk47 12-19-2005 12:36 PM

it was winning the war they said it themselfs and if the chancellor told dooku to get angry and kill them both and not taunt them he wood have killed themand they could have won the battle over courcant

TK-8252 12-19-2005 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hk47
it was winning the war they said it themselfs and if the chancellor told dooku to get angry and kill them both and not taunt them he wood have killed themand they could have won the battle over courcant

Your post fails.

MachineCult 12-19-2005 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hk47
it was winning the war they said it themselfs and if the chancellor told dooku to get angry and kill them both and not taunt them he wood have killed themand they could have won the battle over courcant

I agree with TK, try and make some sense next time.

Palpatine and Dooku created the Clone Wars, Sidious was in charge of the CIS and Palpatine was in charge of the Republic. It wasn't a real war and the Army of the Republic were always going to win, how could you possibly not have realised this Servercat?

Servercat 12-20-2005 01:09 AM

As a plot point, we always knew the Clones would win. They had to. The CIS couldn't win at the end of Episode 3...unless the Storm troopers in 4-6 were secretly droids ^_^

What am I talking about, is the vast outclassing of the CIS versus the Clones.

Lets look at the advantages of each

Clones:

1. More flexible and can innovate with more frequency and success.
2. Better Leadership, (mainly costing of the Jedi on the ground fighting along side of them).


Droids:

1. Vastly Superior Numbers
2. Greater Coordination and ability to adapt to changes on a widespread level faster then Clones
3. Superior Armament
4. Superior Logistics (Troopers are cheaper. Do not require food, or aid. Meaning more troopers and ammunition per deployment)
5. Ranks can be replenished quickly.


Even with the great benefits of the Jedi, the Droids have the clear advantage. They are more heavily armed, overwhelming numbers, and superior logistics.

The only true logical factor in how the CIS could lose (aside from making the plot work ^_^) is the Sith i.e. Palpatine.

But here in lies the problem. Palpatine's goal is to gain control of the 'republic' (read Galaxy) and destroy the Jedi. It doesn't really matter which army he supports, he would still gain control, no matter who wins.

The Clones win, he gains the respect and love of the Senate and they convert into the Empire.

The CIS wins, he gains control of the dominant military and economic force in the Galaxy.


It's win/win scenario for Palpatine. So it seems to me, at least so far, that the only reason the CIS loses is merely to fulfil plot points for the series. :O

El Sitherino 12-20-2005 11:46 AM

You're missing the fundemental part, he has to convert Anakin. Being the leader of the seperatists, he couldn't do that.

Servercat 12-20-2005 01:47 PM

True enough, but that's a plot reason. I bet given a little time and energy he could have done it even as leader of the CIS. It would merely be a matter of saying that the Republic and Jedi had fallen from the proper path and the Seperatists were the true peacemakers of the Galaxy.

El Sitherino 12-20-2005 02:48 PM

Except Anakin is loyal to the Republic that saved him. That's why he follows Palpatine, he believes Palpatine is protecting the republic.

MachineCult 12-20-2005 04:56 PM

The Kaminoan stated that the Clones were "...vastly superior to Droids."

The Droids were mindless, they didn't have any logic at all, they relied on numbers because more Droids would be destroyed in a battle.

Palpatine created the CIS, he is in control of everything, he would win either way?!
The Clones were dominant.

Servercat 12-20-2005 07:07 PM

I think that the Kaminion would have said that regardless ^_^ Backing their product

The Droids are no more innovative, then their programming and the orbiting controller(s). It doesn't make them mindless or stupid, just means they lack creativity.

In addition to their mass numbers, we see the droids absorb more damage then a clone. They take 2 or 3 direct blaster hits, limb's get hacked off and they still continue firing with Star Wars-esque accuracy. ^_^ Same can't be said about the Clones.

While the basic Clone Troopers and the Roger-Roger's are equivilantly armed blaster wise, the speciality Droids are more heavily armed/armored and more capable then any Clone. A Solo Droideka can even go toe to toe with a Jedi, and even has a great chance of winning the fight. What clone variation can say the same?

Which in lies the CIS's greatest asset. They can match the best the Republic has, and can replace their loses faster and cheaper then the Republic. It takes years to replace even a lowly Padawan, and the CIS can create an equivilant force in month or more.

And to rub salt on the wound, it wouldn't cost the CIS anymore then the fund it takes to create an automated factory like we see in Ep.2. On a good moon/planet said factory could be totatly self suffienct. Much like the factory, you learn about in the Vader's Fist journal's in SW:BF2.

MachineCult 12-20-2005 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servercat
What clone variation can say the same?

ARC Troopers and Clone Commandos.

Look you're obviously wrong, the films and Databank make this clear. The Grand army of the Republic are Elite Troopers, clones of the most feared bounty hunter in the galaxy, the CIS are
Quote:

Originally Posted by Star Wars Databank
mindless...

drones. The Clone Troopers were
Quote:

Originally Posted by Star Wars Databank
Far superior to the battle droid armies of the era...

Unlike the Clones, even the Super Battle Droids,
Quote:

Originally Posted by Star Wars Databank
...like their inferior predecessors, have very rudimentary programming and are poor at formulating attack plans.


Seriphyn 12-21-2005 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TK-8252
Your post fails.

Easy guys, our friend here has only just turned 10! :p

MachineCult 12-21-2005 02:59 PM

I can't believe how many really young people are on this forum.

Nedak 01-02-2006 01:23 PM

10?! He did not have any spelling errors (for what I saw) and that is good for 10. Also how do you know he is 10?

MachineCult 01-02-2006 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by han sala
10?! He did not have any spelling errors (for what I saw) and that is good for 10. Also how do you know he is 10?

HK47 is who he was talking about, he made a few mistakes and his post didn't make any sense.

Nedak 01-02-2006 04:42 PM

Thats true

arkodeon 01-28-2006 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Insane Sith
Except Anakin is loyal to the Republic that saved him. That's why he follows Palpatine, he believes Palpatine is protecting the republic.

You know, that always bugged me. The Jedi were the ones who saved him, yet look what he does to show gratitude. ):

He fails.

PoiuyWired 05-03-2006 08:25 PM

Ok, its not which army is going to win, its which army the Sith WANTS to be the winner.

Palpy is a pro-human person, and CIS is non-human oriented in terms of ownership and major sponsors. Obviously palpy will want the clones to win instead.

Also defeating the CIS would make great media work concerning non-human aliens are evil, rallying more "good human" to palpy's side.

It really is that simple. Though I think Doku may actually WANT to win the war and take the Throne by himself.

Shok_Tinoktin 05-04-2006 03:32 AM

I think there are several reasons why Palpatine would want the Republic to prevail, rather than the CIS. One is that the Republic has a pre-existing bureaucracy in place to control the galaxy. It is much easier to phase this out in favor a more direct method (grand moffs, moffs, etc). Another is that he wanted the popular support of the people. If he gains control of the Republic by force (CIS victory), then the galaxy will be a conquered people, who are more likely to lash out in rebellion. By thwarting the enemy (Republic victory), he becomes a hero, and the general populace actually want him to rule the galaxy.

Redtech 05-04-2006 08:23 AM

Well, this is Star Wars, I mean, the Iraqi insurgency could do better.

Ultimately, Grievous ended up with a powerful fleet over a poorly defended coruscant, now, if I was in his shoes, I'd have nuked it. No leadership=end of war.

arkodeon 05-04-2006 08:38 AM

The only person in the CIS who knew Palpatine was Sidious was Dooku, I don't believe any other droid/general knew. Therefore, I don't know why Grievous DIDN'T inflict more damage on Coruscant. Sure, Dooku might have said "Don't do it," but after Dooku died, I'd get mad and order all Turbolasers to fire on the planet.

Heck, he could have even fired on the Jedi Temple if he didn't want to REALLY disobey the commander. Dooku wouldn't be able to object; he was a Sith, and it would have looked REALLY suspicious.

Redtech 05-04-2006 08:44 AM

True that. But remember, this IS Star Wars. You want a realistic war, we're in the wrong place. Heck, even the Breen Managed to kick Starfleet butt when they invaded Earth, and that was a hit/run!

PoiuyWired 05-04-2006 03:08 PM

Well no kidding. I mean if you have droids half as smart as that you would rule the space combats. W/o need of life support system you can basically just make legless droids with jet engines attached to their bums and a huge proton topedo attached to their nose. A lot cheaper but much much more effective en messe. You basically don't need a "ship" for many things, just a huge hyperdrive with holes/tubes loaded up with these things. Ok, maybe a few other warships and freighters(with lasers) and bombers and transports.

Being droids are also great planetside. Ignoring some more simple biological needs is a plus, but it also mean you can make every every grunt a biochemical warfare agent. You know droids don't get sick or anything.

POINT: even according to starwars world view, CIS is still at least on par with the clones, if not better. Clones winning the war is more of a political schemeing solution than anything else.

Prime 05-04-2006 03:40 PM

The ridiculous part is the apparently canon number of only 3 million clones from Kamino. That simply shouldn't work and the CIS should have walked all over them.

Kurgan 05-05-2006 05:45 AM

Yeah, the EU has frankly turned the whole situation completely ridiculous. Essentially they are asking you to believe that say, one Delta Force soldier could take on all the soldiers of the entire earth... and win. I don't care how incompetent the soldiers of the entire earth are... that's just unbelievable!

To make sense of the scenes I just ignore the EU stuff, and assume there are a lot more clones already out there than implied by the movie and with lots of support troops as well (but you need lots of clones, you can't call it the Clone War if only 1% of your troops are clones, can you?).

PoiuyWired 05-05-2006 07:35 AM

well actually, I alwys think its the clones who are doing the majority of the fighting. Support personel and such are still filled mostly by non-clones.

Darth Alec 05-05-2006 09:09 AM

In episode 2 they said 1.2 million UNITS, what if one unit is 100 or 1000 clones, that would even the odds slightly. But they would still be smashed.

Prime 05-05-2006 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurgan
Yeah, the EU has frankly turned the whole situation completely ridiculous.

That's an understatement. The part that I find silly is that there are now all sorts of retcons to try (unsuccessfully IMO) and make the number at least someone reasonable. So there is a big convoluted mess when instead they could have changed one number.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurgan
Essentially they are asking you to believe that say, one Delta Force soldier could take on all the soldiers of the entire earth... and win. I don't care how incompetent the soldiers of the entire earth are... that's just unbelievable!

Not only that, but G-canon says it is simply not the case. I can't remember the exact line, but the ATOC novelization mentions that clones are not vastly superior to droids (dispite the Kaminoans' claims). Since there are billions of droids, 3 million clones after the first year doesn't work. And at the Battle of Geonosis, out of 200 Jedi only a handful survived, and I think we can agree that a Jedi is superior to a clone. IIRC there were 200,000 droids at that battle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurgan
To make sense of the scenes I just ignore the EU stuff, and assume there are a lot more clones already out there than implied by the movie and with lots of support troops as well (but you need lots of clones, you can't call it the Clone War if only 1% of your troops are clones, can you?).

We do know that there are additional forces than just clones, mainly natives on the various planets. We see this on Utapau in particular. But most of the battles that are depicted in the EU consist mainly of clones.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth Alec
well actually, I alwys think its the clones who are doing the majority of the fighting. Support personel and such are still filled mostly by non-clones.

Sure. But in the films we see clones doing pretty much everything, from piloting to starship gunnery crews and so on. We know that they do more than act as simple soldiers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PoiuyWired
In episode 2 they said 1.2 million UNITS, what if one unit is 100 or 1000 clones, that would even the odds slightly. But they would still be smashed.

There are several sources, including Karen Traviss's 3 million clones after the first year, that state that 1 unit = 1 clone. There are many reasons why I think this number is simply incorrect:

3 million clones can be transported by 188 Acclimators. Leaving none for Venators, stationing on planets, or crewing anything, including the acclimators.

The NEC says this about Battle of Muunilist: "The Republic countered with sheer numbers, sending hundreds of assault ships, each one groaning from the weight of troopers and war machines. Many vessels reached the surface only as smoldering hulks; others found themselves cut off from their drop zones, forced to make landings behind enemy lines." Technically assault ship means an Acclimator. That means that the entire clone army was at that battle. Leaving none for anywhere else in the galaxy. According to the EU, this is not true.

One retcon has been that a clone was worth about 200 battle droids to justify the small number. That implies that, in ROTS on Utapau, where there are "thousands of battle droids", the Kenobi would only need a handful of clones. If there were 10,000 droids, he would only need about 50 clones. Yet we see several acclimators flying overhead. Was this complete overkill? Even if there were a million droids, they would only need about 5000 clones, which is one fairly empty acclimator. That ratio just doesn't work.

3 million isn't an unheard of number of soldiers for an army on Earth. Did the GAR not protect any of their holdings after they won them? Yes, there were non-clones involved in the Clone Wars, but in the films apart from Utapau everything we see is done by clones (pilots, crewman, soldier, etc.). And according to the ROTS novel, "the new governors are arriving with full regiments of clone troops…what they call security forces.” So after the war they are used as occupying forces. Yes there can be more than the 3 million number from 2 years before, but how many more? They have a lot of occupying to do. From ANH novelization, Tarkin tells us “This station is the final link in a new-forged Imperial chain which will bind the million systems of the galactic Empire together once and for all.”

Even if the Republic had gained an order of magnitude more clones in two years, that is still only 30 clones to occupy a system (not planet). Yes, not every system needs occupying, but the Emperor is trying to enforce his rule, so it is reasonable to assume that most systems would need to be controlled. Even if it is only a third of the systems, probably the upper bound is 90 troopers per system, assuming all those extra clones. At just double the growth, we are looking at 3-9 clones per system.

Yikes.

Shok_Tinoktin 05-05-2006 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redtech
Ultimately, Grievous ended up with a powerful fleet over a poorly defended coruscant, now, if I was in his shoes, I'd have nuked it. No leadership=end of war.

Two words: Planetary Sheilds

Kurgan 05-06-2006 05:02 AM

Hmm, maybe that's why we only saw two Stormtroopers on Tatooine before Vader sent the "Detachment" to find the stolen plans?

lol.... what a mess

Darth Alec 05-07-2006 08:54 AM

Prime, you got the last two quotes wrong. I wrote the last thing.

Niner_777 05-07-2006 04:20 PM

I do think that the clones are better than the droids. A single clone can take out many droids because they have the ability to think. They can find cover. I suppose it is kind of like the American Revolutionary War. The British had way more troops, but they fought out in the open, while the Americans hid behind trees and rocks, which reduced casualties.

However, the droids lost because Sidious wanted them to lose. They might have ended up winning, had they not been shut down, under the order of Sidious.

Kurgan 05-08-2006 04:53 AM

The problem is there are a billion (or a trillion) droids to every clone trooper, according to the EU numbers. So they can't possibly win, no matter how good they are!

The EU authors, perhaps realizing their mistake, tried to say that the Clones were so awesome they could kill 200 (or 2000) droids before going down. Despite that this is ridiculous considering their performance in the movies (even the Jedi don't do that well!), they would lose badly if this is all they could do.

PoiuyWired 05-08-2006 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Niner_777
I do think that the clones are better than the droids. A single clone can take out many droids because they have the ability to think. They can find cover. I suppose it is kind of like the American Revolutionary War. The British had way more troops, but they fought out in the open, while the Americans hid behind trees and rocks, which reduced casualties.

However, the droids lost because Sidious wanted them to lose. They might have ended up winning, had they not been shut down, under the order of Sidious.

Well I agree with your second point.

As for your first point:
1) Red is definitely not a good color... you learn that from startrek. It also makes an obvious target.

2) American tactics are better. Even so, there are many external elements to the Revolutionary War, as for CIS vs Republic, there is no known significant external power to interfere.

3) The sheer scale of WoMD is way too different to compare. In starwars both sides have the technology to genoside a whole freaking planet within hours, if not less, also a point mostly avoided by LA and writers.

Niner_777 05-08-2006 04:27 PM

Quote:

The problem is there are a billion (or a trillion) droids to every clone trooper, according to the EU numbers.
Oh, if that's the case I don't see any wayt that the clones could win had the Emperor not shut down the doids. Even a jedi doesn't take out a billion (or a trillion) droids. At least I don't think they do.

Prime 05-08-2006 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth Alec
Prime, you got the last two quotes wrong. I wrote the last thing.

So I did. Damn Cut & Paste! Apologies...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Niner_777
I do think that the clones are better than the droids.

They are. But it is impossible for them to be so good as to overcome the absolutely staggering odds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Niner_777
A single clone can take out many droids because they have the ability to think. They can find cover. I suppose it is kind of like the American Revolutionary War. The British had way more troops, but they fought out in the open, while the Americans hid behind trees and rocks, which reduced casualties.

Sure, they had better tactics, but they can only go so far. Tactics cannot overcome the such complete numerical superiority. Sure, you can hide behind a tree from the 150 battle droids, but the other 50 are standing behind you. Can't dodge 200 shots at once...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Niner_777
However, the droids lost because Sidious wanted them to lose. They might have ended up winning, had they not been shut down, under the order of Sidious.

But Sidious also had to convince each side that it could win so that they fought on. If the Republic sees that it has 3 million troopers, and the CIS has billions upon billions of battle droids, surely they would surrender. The original (equally ridiculous) number of the CIS droid army was a quintillion droids. That's right, 1,000,000,000,000,000,000. So that is a 1,000,000,000,000 to 1 odds. Clone troopers aren't that good. Even if they were worth 200 battle droids, I think you will agree that it falls a little short.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurgan
The EU authors, perhaps realizing their mistake, tried to say that the Clones were so awesome they could kill 200 (or 2000) droids before going down. Despite that this is ridiculous considering their performance in the movies (even the Jedi don't do that well!), they would lose badly if this is all they could do.

They (she) did realize that they made a mistake, and offered up yet another retcon to try and make things fit with it, instead of just fixing the original number. The change is that the 3 million were only those from Kamino, and that there were also secret facilities on Coruscant. Also, the Republic grossly overestimated the CIS's numbers due to bad intelligence, and is actually closer to hundreds of millions. And the Clone Wars were actually more like brushfire conflicts...

Secret facility on Coruscant? When did this happen? If the facility was set up after the Clone Wars started there isn't nearly enough time to get them into the field. If it was there before, well, that isn't even worth discussing.

Bad intelligence? Sorry, we overestimate the CIS numbers by about 1,000,000,000 times. :rolleyes:

Again, why couldn't they simply change the original number? Afterall, it conflicts with all the previously published numbers.


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