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zalcron 01-24-2006 11:01 AM

Palps slaying of the JEDI was poor
 
Is it just me or do you think the begining of Palps fight with Mace and his 3 other JEDI was really bad? they just stood there and took it, only Mace put up an actual fight. Totally wasted opportunity to show what a bad ass he was, its like they were all on drugs as it was not as if he was moving mega fast or anything.

Cercueil 01-24-2006 11:34 AM

that was a true Bloody hell!! moment if i ever saw one.

zalcron 01-24-2006 11:52 AM

it is was a true bloody stupid moment imo, it was better in the book.

Cercueil 01-24-2006 12:02 PM

when is a movie ever better than a book? what I took from that scene was a startled surprise from the ones who bought it...even mace seemed surprised at the dexterity of palp...and that he was obviously expecting them. the four marched in liked they owned the place not realizing what they were truely up against. however, i would have liked to see a bit more skill presented from those "masters," but it played out as it should, i suppose.

Darth_Terros 01-24-2006 12:14 PM

Wasnt that stupid they didnt really know what to expect it must have come as quite a shock when he lept out of nowhere and cut them down.

zalcron 01-24-2006 12:28 PM

i just dont buy it they just stood there and watched, how can these so called 'masters' not react quicker. It was not a total suprise as Anakin wanred Mace that Papls was very powerful, no wonder the JEDI all got wiped out, being that complacent and slow they deserved no less.

Darth_Terros 01-24-2006 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zalcron
i just dont buy it they just stood there and watched, how can these so called 'masters' not react quicker. It was not a total suprise as Anakin wanred Mace that Papls was very powerful, no wonder the JEDI all got wiped out, being that complacent and slow they deserved no less.

The jedi arnt superheroes and not all of them were great swordsmen plus palpatine moved incredibly fast and it was a small area he attacked them in *a door way* if the jedimaster were to start throwing their sabers around they'd probably more likely hurt each other

MachineCult 01-24-2006 03:40 PM

Sidious was just better than them, I think Kit Fisto and Mace fought realistically though.

The Source 01-24-2006 11:09 PM

How about the slow motion of Mace's hand when Anikan cut it off... That was so horrible. There should have been more effort.

The actor for Palpatine is a theater major. I believe the commentary stated that he was not trained to do fight scenes, so they made it easier on the actor..

MachineCult 01-25-2006 08:56 AM

A stuntman did alot of the fighting.

zalcron 01-25-2006 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth_Terros
The jedi arnt superheroes and not all of them were great swordsmen plus palpatine moved incredibly fast and it was a small area he attacked them in *a door way* if the jedimaster were to start throwing their sabers around they'd probably more likely hurt each other

Incrediably fast? are you having a laugh? yes he jumped over fast but then he slowly stabed the first JEDI whilst the one who he had his back to just stood there and watched.

Cercueil 01-25-2006 02:20 PM

you know, youre really not goign to find the answer you want....they were stunned, amazed, dumbfounded, awstruck, urinating on the floor, etc. over thought on the matter could have easy had palp use some type of Mind trick on them. sure, it was tough, but compound the element presented of surprise could have made them more atune to it. anakin talked to mace....perhaps mace was better prepared for it. he did just stand in the back ground, though, perhaps he was stunned, but was able to move back.

bottom line is that, for whatever reason, Palp was able to dispatch the jedi that came for him easily. the reasons why are going ot be left to speculation....and since this is a makebelieve story we can come up with all kinds of things. maybe, perhaps, their shoes were too tight?

Fealiks 01-25-2006 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MachineCult
A stuntman did alot of the fighting.

not true, George Lucas wanted palpatine to do all of it. although the actor is, as MacLeodCorp said, crap at swordfighting, most of the shots shown palpatine's face. George realy wanted the audiance to realize the anger and facial expressions in his (palpatine's) face.

oh and i dont mean to be rude or anything but zalcron could you stop capsing "jedi", its kind of annoying... :)

MachineCult 01-25-2006 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fealiks
not true, George Lucas wanted palpatine to do all of it. although the actor is, as MacLeodCorp said, crap at swordfighting, most of the shots shown palpatine's face. George realy wanted the audiance to realize the anger and facial expressions in his (palpatine's) face.

No, Ian McDiarmuid did not do all of it, they talk in depth on the special features of the ROTS DVD about the whole sequence and the stuntman used in place of Ian.
Of course it was Ian in the more closeup shots in the fight but I'd say half of it is the stuntman. You can clearly see that the actor is not Ian when Mace disarms Palpatine and he crawls quickly to the corner of the windowframe.

Don't go around trying to disprove someone unless you know for a fact that what you are saying is true.

SirLancelot 01-25-2006 04:56 PM

The slaying of the Jedi so easily by Palpatine was meant to be symbolic, in my opinion. The Jedi had become weak in the force(as Mace Windu had said in Episode II). Complacency, arrogance. These had diminished the Jedi Order's effectiveness. While the Sith had been cultivating their strength.

When Palpatine took the Jedi down so easily, it was meant to show the end result of the corruption of the order constrasted with the emerging power of the Sith. When the Sith finally revelaed themselves to the order in full strength, the Jedi were not prepared. That was always my take on it.

zalcron 01-26-2006 04:20 AM

lol clearly we are never going to see eye to eye on this so i guess it is best to agree to disagree. I am under no illusions that the jedi had become complacent and hence why sidious' scheme worked, my niggle is with the actual mechanics of that intial fight.

Like i said before the book made him out to be a dark shadow much more powerful in than that scene gave him credit for, but as someone said films rarely do credit to books. I just feel the intial pre-Mace part of that fight could have been carried off better. I guess my problem is i am having a hard time detaching myself from the written version of that fight. Still, nice to have a debate...

johnnyoi 01-27-2006 12:39 PM

I think that as they were going to arrest him, they knew he was a sith lord, but they probably still had doubts on how poweful he really was. I think it's safe to say that sidious had more training than the 4 jedi combined, therefore he had more dexterity, they were caught off guard, except windu. Lucas probably just wanted to show how powerful he was compared to the jedi.

MachineCult 01-27-2006 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnnyoi
...I think it's safe to say that sidious had more training than the 4 jedi combined...

Um, no.
Thats pretty doubtful considering Palpatine probably spent most of his time throughout his life on his political career, he would not have had much time to train.
Whereas the Jedi spent their whole lives training their Jedi skills, and Mace was roughly the same age as Palpatine.
We don't even know when Palpatine started his Sith training, it might have even been after he had begun his career in politics, so no, it is not safe to say that he had more training.

Justus 01-27-2006 02:21 PM

Palpatine is the most powerful sith in modern times. Added to the fact that hardly anyone on the Jedi council had even encountered a Sith before.

Kurgan 01-27-2006 06:21 PM

They still fight like idiots. He slooowly stabs at the first guy (Agen Kolar) who doesn't even block, he just grunts as he gets stabbed. The other guy doesn't block either, he just gets cut down and doesn't even try to fight. Kit Fisto lasts about 3 seconds, at least he TRIES. If he was mind tricking the Jedi Masters somehow, it didn't work on Mace (character shields?). It was just a badly done scene I think... oh well.

How would I have done it? I'd have just made him come out blindingly fast, smashing their blocks away and cutting them up in a few seconds to show how powerful he was, not just having them stand there and let him kill them, which is basically how it came off as. Or if Lucas really wanted to have been in your face, he could have had Palpatine raise his hand at each Jedi who would then suddenly be frozen in place while he cut them down. Then have when he comes to Mace, his power gets blocked and then they fight normally or something...

MachineCult 01-27-2006 07:21 PM

I agree Kurgan, Lucas did not handle the first part of that scene well.

arkodeon 01-28-2006 11:36 AM

I think that if they really tried, Palpatine would have been dead.

Look at it, Palpatine wasn't very fast. When he went to stab what'shisface Agen Kolar, it's shown that he pulls back and stabs in. That's more than enough time to block and defend. If the four Jedi Masters were to circle him, Palpatine would surely have been dead.

I really doubt that THOSE four Jedi Masters were weak and complacent; Kit Fisto led an assault on Mon Calamari, and single-handedly destroyed a giant beam thingy. (A LA Clone Wars. Canon, you know.) Saesae Tinn led the space assault in many missions. Agen Kolar...well...I don't exactly know what he did, so he could have been killed off.

But we're talking about members of the Jedi Council. They would not be on the Jedi Council if Yoda and the rest thought that they would not be able to be more powerful than regular Jedi Knights.

What shocks me is that Anakin WARNED the four that he was dangerous, and to be weary. Plus, if all four Force Shoved him out the window, that would be the end of him.

They being stoic was just a way to get to the Endgame; GL should have thought of something better. D:

EDIT: And a side-note: Anakin Skywalker (Darth Vader) was the most powerful Sith, not Palpatine.

zalcron 01-30-2006 09:54 AM

thank you gentleman, thats what i have been trying to get across all along :) the start of the fight was bad!

MachineCult 01-30-2006 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arkodeon
I think that if they really tried, Palpatine would have been dead.

If Anakin hadn't interupted then Palpatine would be dead and there wouldn't be any of this stupid NJO business.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arkodeon
EDIT: And a side-note: Anakin Skywalker (Darth Vader) was the most powerful Sith, not Palpatine.

He was probably the most powerful of all the force-users.

edlib 01-31-2006 06:31 AM

Lucas painted himself into a corner with this one.

He had to have the Jedi confront Palpatine, which they wouldn't do alone, (so there had to be more than one of them there....) but also get down to a one-on-one fight, which is more dramatic, and far easier to film and stage.

There are a couple of "in-universe" clues in the ROTS novelization and movies which point to why he was able to dispatch with them so easily:
a.) He was so powerful with the Dark Side that it clouded the Jedi's abilities, and stunned them all, with the exception of Mace. This was hinted at in Ep. II, and also when Obi and Anakin got captured on Grievous' ship. His mere presence diminished their force abilities.
b.) None of the Jedi were trained to handle another force-user, and hadn't been training against other saber wielders. Only the Jedi descended from Yoda's training (Yoda, Dooku, Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Anakin... and I'm not sure where Mace fits in there) took the threat of the return of the Sith seriously, and were the only ones truly prepared to fight against someone trained in the Jedi arts and armed with a lightsaber. Everyone else had been practicing to fight against opponents armed with blasters.
c.) They never expected him to fight back against obviously superior numbers.

The real reasons for eliminating the rest of the Jedi Masters right off the bat are far simpler though: it makes for a much better movie.

Notice that Lucas always pares down all the lightsaber duels to a one-on-one conflict almost immediately. In Ep. I Obi-wan is taken out of the fight early so that it's just Maul and Qui-Gon, and he doesn't catch up until Qui-Gon is down.
In Ep. II first Anakin is down, then Obi-Wan, then both are down when Yoda appears.
In Ep. III Dooku lays the smackdown on Obi-Wan pretty early, so that it's just Anakin left.

It's an obvious trend.

A one-on-one fight is far easier and quicker to shoot, not to mention far, far easier on all the stunt coordinators, fight choreographers, stunt people and actors.

Plus the fact that the other Jedi in that scene are all aliens. You never really see a non-human Jedi fight the way the human ones do, not even in the Ep. II arena battle scene. Why? You try seriously fighting in a heavy, bulky, hot foam-rubber suit that blocks most of your vision and restricts your movement dramatically. Plus, 5 minutes of serious athletic fighting in suit like that on a hot soundstage under thousands of watts of film lighting, and you'd better have the paramedics handy, since you are going to pass out from heat exhaustion and dehydration.

You could replace them with CG characters... but that's highly expensive and time consuming, and since all that you really want to get to is the far more dramatic one-on-one battle of Windu vs. Sidious, that would end up most likely being very expensive fight footage that got cut in the interest of time, anyway.

It was also a cramped set. There wasn't a whole lot of room to have an extensive 5-person fight anyway, as this was supposed to be an office.

At that point in the movie the momentum has built to a crescendo... that fight is really just there to provide Anakins real turn to the dark side, anyway. You really don't want a huge fight at that point in the movie as a film maker, anyway. A huge saber fight at that point would probably take away from the drama of the final, ultimate showdown of the Mustifar duel.

Those are the real reasons why the Jedi didn't fight back... the unfortunate realities of making a film.

zalcron 01-31-2006 10:33 AM

you make some good and fair points, i just think it might have been better if he had a booby trap or something that killed 2 of them and he slayed the other one whilst taking on Mace.

Prime 01-31-2006 11:32 AM

I think they should have had to "answer me these questions three."

arkodeon 01-31-2006 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edlib
Lucas painted himself into a corner with this one.

He had to have the Jedi confront Palpatine, which they wouldn't do alone, (so there had to be more than one of them there....) but also get down to a one-on-one fight, which is more dramatic, and far easier to film and stage.

There are a couple of "in-universe" clues in the ROTS novelization and movies which point to why he was able to dispatch with them so easily:
a.) He was so powerful with the Dark Side that it clouded the Jedi's abilities, and stunned them all, with the exception of Mace. This was hinted at in Ep. II, and also when Obi and Anakin got captured on Grievous' ship. His mere presence diminished their force abilities.
b.) None of the Jedi were trained to handle another force-user, and hadn't been training against other saber wielders. Only the Jedi descended from Yoda's training (Yoda, Dooku, Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Anakin... and I'm not sure where Mace fits in there) took the threat of the return of the Sith seriously, and were the only ones truly prepared to fight against someone trained in the Jedi arts and armed with a lightsaber. Everyone else had been practicing to fight against opponents armed with blasters.
c.) They never expected him to fight back against obviously superior numbers.

The real reasons for eliminating the rest of the Jedi Masters right off the bat are far simpler though: it makes for a much better movie.

Notice that Lucas always pares down all the lightsaber duels to a one-on-one conflict almost immediately. In Ep. I Obi-wan is taken out of the fight early so that it's just Maul and Qui-Gon, and he doesn't catch up until Qui-Gon is down.
In Ep. II first Anakin is down, then Obi-Wan, then both are down when Yoda appears.
In Ep. III Dooku lays the smackdown on Obi-Wan pretty early, so that it's just Anakin left.

It's an obvious trend.

A one-on-one fight is far easier and quicker to shoot, not to mention far, far easier on all the stunt coordinators, fight choreographers, stunt people and actors.

Plus the fact that the other Jedi in that scene are all aliens. You never really see a non-human Jedi fight the way the human ones do, not even in the Ep. II arena battle scene. Why? You try seriously fighting in a heavy, bulky, hot foam-rubber suit that blocks most of your vision and restricts your movement dramatically. Plus, 5 minutes of serious athletic fighting in suit like that on a hot soundstage under thousands of watts of film lighting, and you'd better have the paramedics handy, since you are going to pass out from heat exhaustion and dehydration.

You could replace them with CG characters... but that's highly expensive and time consuming, and since all that you really want to get to is the far more dramatic one-on-one battle of Windu vs. Sidious, that would end up most likely being very expensive fight footage that got cut in the interest of time, anyway.

It was also a cramped set. There wasn't a whole lot of room to have an extensive 5-person fight anyway, as this was supposed to be an office.

At that point in the movie the momentum has built to a crescendo... that fight is really just there to provide Anakins real turn to the dark side, anyway. You really don't want a huge fight at that point in the movie as a film maker, anyway. A huge saber fight at that point would probably take away from the drama of the final, ultimate showdown of the Mustifar duel.

Those are the real reasons why the Jedi didn't fight back... the unfortunate realities of making a film.

Since when was Obi-Wan/Anakin/Qui-Gon been pupils of Yoda? I don't ever remember any of them being Padawans of Yoda.

I am really sure that with the Return of the Sith at the end of the Phantom Menace that the Jedi Knights were being prepared. Yoda himself seemed uneasy; he knew of the existence of two, and only one had been slain. Yoda, and in effect the entire Jedi Council, knows of the growing Sith threat. The Jedi are not so stupid as not to prepare themselves for a fight.

And if the Battle of Geonosis wasn't the biggest hint that they had to start training against other lightsaber-wielding opponents, then their order was doomed from the start.

Plus, Ki-Adi-Mundi, Obi-Wan Kenobi, and Mace Windu held their own against General Grievous, who was faster, could climb walls/ceilings, and could, if he wanted to, wield 4 lightsabers, which he usually only used two. The arguement that they could not fight against Lightsaber-wielding opponents is absurd; if they could not fight against lightsabers, Grievous would have won.

While I agree that George Lucas made the fight a Mace Windu VS. Palpatine to be dramatic, and to an extent it is, but it fails. The dramaticism created by this conflict is never resolved; Anakin Skywalker kills Mace Windu, and concludes the dramaticism with Mace, but never is the conflict between Palpatine and Windu resolved. Even though the Chancellor was just faking it, if Anakin hadn't intervened, Mace would have killed him, effectively ending the Return of the Sith. In this, we can see that none of the two checkmated eachother, for it was the intervention of Anakin that led to the conclusion, thus ending with a lingering..."What if?"

Which isn't always a bad thing.

And the CGI?

Three words.

Yoda Vs. Palpatine.

El Sitherino 01-31-2006 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arkodeon
Since when was Obi-Wan/Anakin/Qui-Gon been pupils of Yoda? I don't ever remember any of them being Padawans of Yoda.

Since forever?

Quote:

Originally Posted by arkodeon
The Jedi are not so stupid as not to prepare themselves for a fight.

They were prepared, just not quite to the extent necessary. As Prime said, the only ones truely prepared were Obi-Wan, Windu, Yoda, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arkodeon
The arguement that they could not fight against Lightsaber-wielding opponents is absurd; if they could not fight against lightsabers, Grievous would have won.

He never said they couldn't, he said they weren't routinely trained.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arkodeon
And the CGI?

Three words.

Yoda Vs. Palpatine.


Name your point.

MachineCult 01-31-2006 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arkodeon
Since when was Obi-Wan/Anakin/Qui-Gon been pupils of Yoda? I don't ever remember any of them being Padawans of Yoda.

All the Jedi are pupils of Yoda before they become Padawans. (Except Anakin who became a Padawan immidiately.)

edlib 01-31-2006 08:03 PM

Qui-gon was Dooku's padawan, and Dooku was Yoda's padawan. So the thread was Yoda>Dooku>Qui-Gon>Obi-Wan>Anakin.

And I'm guessing that spending thousands of dollars and hundreds of man hours on CGI for a 30 second throwaway transitional scene that 98% of the people that see the movie will never, ever give a second thought to, just to satisfy the fan-boys who spend all their time on electronic bulletin boards picking apart your movie frame-by-frame wasn't really high on Lucas list of priorities. :dozey:

He needed to eliminate 3 Jedi, fast. That's the scene he got. He could have spent a lot more time and money to get to the exact same point, perhaps with a little more flair, and more satisfying to the hardcore purists.... but sometimes the simplest solution is the one to go with.

Especially when your main actor (Ian MacDairmid) hadn't had any sword training before the day he showed up to film the scene. That scene would have taken weeks to film, then the CG would have taken months to perfect.
Building Hi-res 3D CGI models of 3 jedi; digital face-replacement for Palpatine's stunt-double; extensive match-move captures; designing unique fighting styles for all 3 jedi; performance motion-tracking for each character.

As it is, they probably got through principal shooting of those shots in an afternoon.

arkodeon 02-02-2006 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MachineCult
All the Jedi are pupils of Yoda before they become Padawans. (Except Anakin who became a Padawan immidiately.)

I thought he meant like...

Direct training, through Padawan to Knight.

If that's the case, then his point is disproven. All Jedi should have been ready because they were all trained by Yoda as Younglings.

zalcron 02-02-2006 10:40 AM

[QUOTE=arkodeon]While I agree that George Lucas made the fight a Mace Windu VS. Palpatine to be dramatic, and to an extent it is, but it fails. The dramaticism created by this conflict is never resolved; Anakin Skywalker kills Mace Windu, and concludes the dramaticism with Mace, but never is the conflict between Palpatine and Windu resolved. Even though the Chancellor was just faking it, if Anakin hadn't intervened, Mace would have killed him, effectively ending the Return of the Sith. In this, we can see that none of the two checkmated eachother, for it was the intervention of Anakin that led to the conclusion, thus ending with a lingering..."What if?"
]

On that note, looking back at all the scheming, planning and patience Palpatine had (his plan to become Emperor took about 15 years to mature) don’t you think that he took a bit of a risk when it came to this fight? He was a Wookie’s whisker away form losing for good against Mace. It just seems odd that man with that much patience and intelligence would gamble everything on the possibility of Anakin walking into his office the exact time Mace was about to end all his plans. Surely even he could not have foreseen that?

Justus 02-02-2006 10:44 AM

Most Jedi were trained to fight against blaster weilding opponents however. Since there hadn't been a sith in many years the Jedi grew complacent, and because of that they suffered greatly, no to mention their arrogance. I'm sure they sparred with one another to hone their skills, but that's quite different than going up against a person strong in the dark side.

edlib 02-02-2006 11:51 AM

My point exactly.

In the novelizations it is implied that Dooku was one of the few who really kept up his saber dueling abilities and practice.

It's a trait he may have gotten from Yoda, who was the only Jedi to seem to still take the threat of the return of the Sith seriously.
If he then passed that along to Qui-Gon, then Qui-Gon passed that along to Obi, and by extension Anakin, then they were the only ones that could ever have faced the Sith.

arkodeon 02-02-2006 04:18 PM

[QUOTE=zalcron]
Quote:

Originally Posted by arkodeon
While I agree that George Lucas made the fight a Mace Windu VS. Palpatine to be dramatic, and to an extent it is, but it fails. The dramaticism created by this conflict is never resolved; Anakin Skywalker kills Mace Windu, and concludes the dramaticism with Mace, but never is the conflict between Palpatine and Windu resolved. Even though the Chancellor was just faking it, if Anakin hadn't intervened, Mace would have killed him, effectively ending the Return of the Sith. In this, we can see that none of the two checkmated eachother, for it was the intervention of Anakin that led to the conclusion, thus ending with a lingering..."What if?"
]

On that note, looking back at all the scheming, planning and patience Palpatine had (his plan to become Emperor took about 15 years to mature) don’t you think that he took a bit of a risk when it came to this fight? He was a Wookie’s whisker away form losing for good against Mace. It just seems odd that man with that much patience and intelligence would gamble everything on the possibility of Anakin walking into his office the exact time Mace was about to end all his plans. Surely even he could not have foreseen that?

I don't know if we can trust his 'forsight.'

He predicted Luke would turn to the darkside, and the Rebels would die. But one major problem came into play: Anakin Skywalker.

I don't think he could forsee Anakin's future, neither could the Jedi. His was shrouded. Granted, this may be only speculation, but I would expect Yoda to forsee this tragedy as well as Palpatine, since they are about the same in power.

He could have felt Anakin approach, and went into "Woe is me, I am old. SAVEME." But I still felt Mace Windu would have won. What strikes me odd about the theory is that before Anakin decided to go to the office, Mace was defeating him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by edlib
My point exactly.

In the novelizations it is implied that Dooku was one of the few who really kept up his saber dueling abilities and practice.

It's a trait he may have gotten from Yoda, who was the only Jedi to seem to still take the threat of the return of the Sith seriously.
If he then passed that along to Qui-Gon, then Qui-Gon passed that along to Obi, and by extension Anakin, then they were the only ones that could ever have faced the Sith.

Again, where do you get this feeling that he/they were the only ones to take this threat seriously?

They knew Dooku was a large threat; they went to Geonosis to stop him. When they discovered that they couldn't, was that not a BIG HINT to start getting their acts together?

And all this talk about being complacent. I don't know where this comes from, because the Jedi sure don't seem complacent to me. They were not pleased with what was happening; they were weariful of the leader of the Republic, they had enemies from everywhere coming at them, they were trying to hold together the Republic from falling into the hands of the Confederation, effectively splitting the Republic up, AND they had to deal with General Grievous, Durge, and Asajj Ventress. Wow. Pretty complacent, don't you think.

And I don't know where this idea of "Those who are directly descended from Yoda's training are the only ones who can take this seriously."

Sure, Yoda trained Dooku, Dooku trained Qui-Gon, Qui-Gon trained Obi-Wan, Obi-Wan trained Anakin, etc. etc.

But clearly, Anakin was not equipped to fight the Sith. Like Master Vos, he succumbed to the Darkside, only Vos was able to get out. There is more to the Sith than just lightsabers;

And, by right of passage, Yoda did indeed train ALL of the Jedi when they were Younglings. This disputes the fact that "Only those trained by Yoda are ready." Mace Windu wasn't a "padawan" of Yoda, but he held his own, until Anakin stepped in.

While they were the only Jedi to "seem" to take the threat seriously, they were the only ones who were given "sufficient" screen time to portray their thoughts on the Clone Wars.

The comics show the Jedi valiantly trying to defeat the Sith; it never said that they were in anyway just "joking" with the idea of the Sith. The Sith were very real, and very dangerous. Many of the Jedi already died at the hands of the Sith during the Clone Wars; if you were a soldier, and some of your legions were killed by a superior force, would you not fear and take the situation seriously?

Sorry if I come across hostile... it's just, I don't see how the arguement applies. ):

I could be wrong.

edlib 02-02-2006 08:13 PM

Well, first, let's just get some perspective:

This is just my personal interpretation of fictional events happening to fictional characters in a fictional universe. If you don't care for my way of seeing it, you can always come up with your own.
I've come to these conclusions after seeing all the movies and reading each of the novelizations. Nothing of this is spelled out in a clear, concise, complete way,.. but there's a few hints and stuff in passing that make me think that this might be something Lucas might have been hinting at, or at least thinking about.
The only one who knows for sure is George Lucas... and that's assuming that he's given it all that much thought. Chances are he saw a solution to a plot problem, and that's just the way it fit best.

My logic:

For thousands of years the Jedi follow their paths as glorified galactic policemen... doing a little diplomatic work, and putting out fires wherever they saw them.
At first they were vigilant about any signs of the Sith returning. But as the centuries wore on the only other force-using, lightsaber-wielding lifeforms they might have encountered in all that time just happened to be on their side.
But 100% of the opponents they encountered in their daily business were using beam and projectile weapons. Eventually they started to relax their training against other fencers, since their time was probably better spent learning defence against the billions of billions of lifeforms holding guns, rather than someone using a lightsaber. Any sparring going on that point was mostly friendly contests between Jedi, since it makes no sense to choose a lightsaber as a weapon unless you have the force, so the Jedi and the Sith are the only ones to have them. The Jedi are in total control of all the force-users that get discovered within the auspices of the Republic,.. and, as far as the Jedi, and the rest of the galaxy know, the Sith are totally extinct.

So when Qui-Gon first appears before the Jedi council after being attacked by Maul on Tatooeen, most of the Council is like "Sith Lord? Whatchoo talkin' 'bout, Willis?"
Only Yoda seemed to admit that it was a possibility, and that the Dark Side was too difficult to know for sure.
After Obi-Wan defeats Maul, the Council finally admits that he was a Sith Lord, but they don't know if he was the master or student. While they then stay watchful, continual problems with the Trade Federation as well as the recently renounced Dooku's separatists kept the tiny number of Jedi too busy to really deal with the problem and to make sure the rest of the Jedi were truly trained properly.

Why did Sidious choose Dooku? Well, he was a bit of an egomaniac, which made him easy conversion... but he also was one of the few that still fought in the old style (this was a phrase used in the novelizations,) and he could hold his own against another duellist. A trait to have when picking out a future Sith lord, who was going to have to fight sword-to-sword against fully trained Jedi... you want the best.

So now the Jedi are stretched all over the galaxy when the Clone Wars start. They now know Dooku is a Sith... probably assuming he was the master of Maul. The Jedi are in almost constant battles, and still, with the exception of a couple of encounters with Grievous, (which almost every Jedi who goes against him lost, if you note...) 100% of all their opponents are still using beam and projectile weapons.
But the point is that the Jedi are all just too busy fighting a war to really train against a Sith opponent properly.

As far as Yoda training the younglings: Well, he was head of the Jedi Council, and most likely the main political representative to the Republic. How much time could he devote to teaching and training in that role?
Most of the kids he's shown teaching are kindergarten age. (And what exactly is he shown teaching those kids? How to deflect blaster bolts with their sabers...) How much do you remember of what your kindergarten teacher taught you, specifically?
At some point other teachers take over and teach their style. But those early stages are most likely Force-use basics, and general education.
Eventually each student is paired off to a Master Jedi to be mentored, still fairly young if I remember correctly. The Jedi Master will really teach them most of what they will use. It's there that they will really learn the most about being a Jedi. Yoda got a chance to teach his theories and methods to his Padawan far more than he ever would to a group of very young kids in a classroom setting.
His methods would then further influence the padawans that his former apprentice later takes on, tempered by that knights personality and experiences.

But hey... it's just my theory. Nothing says it's the gospel, codified truth... but it fits what I saw in the movies, and makes sense to me.

zalcron 02-03-2006 03:47 AM

nicely put together, so the buttom line is the jedi became complacent and even arrogant and paid the price.

Maphisto86 02-03-2006 03:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MachineCult
I agree Kurgan, Lucas did not handle the first part of that scene well.

Very true... I found that only Kit Fisto and of course Mace Windu put up a decent fight. I was really disappointed about how Agen Kolar and Saesee Tiin fared. I mean if they did "something".... ANYTHING! It was the poorest fighting scene done in the entire film (with the General Grievous v.s. Obi-Wan scene a close second). I always envisioned Palpatine igniting his lightsaber in midair, slicing through Agen Kolar as he lands then ducking a swipe from Saesee Tiin and slicing him at the waist then leaping over Mace and Kit who come to the other Jedi's aid. Palps then duels with the two of them for six seconds and snuffs Kit Fisto. There, not so hard eh George? He really should have used that so-called "digital magic" he's so fond of.

Alas, I like Episode III over all but that scene will always make me disapointed. Jedi masters... :disaprove The only part of that duel I liked was how Palpatine did that jump, spin in mid air with the lightsaber. That looked cool... :smash:

Sam Fisher 02-03-2006 10:55 AM

I've always wondered.. if that's how "Masters" fare.. I guess Padawans can't even get their britches up.

That scene simply sucked IMO.

I guess I can't expect much out of Lucas (in that department) though :(


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