Does ROTS have a few too many coincidences?
 

I can accept that C3PO was a droid young Annakin had built and later he joins up with Luke, that Yoda was established as the greatest Jedi of all time, ect, but there are a few things that are a little hard to swallow. Such as, Yoda just happening to fight alongside Chewbacca on Kashyyk, or 3PO and R2 just happening to be placed in the care of a 'General Antellis.' Has anyone else picked up on these? Do they bother you as well, or is it just me?

Im not seeing how this is a coincidence or the one about yoda being the greatest jedi how is that a coincidence?

It's Captain Antilles, and 3PO mentions in ANH that their last master was Captian Antilles (no relation to the better-known starfighter pilot). I do agree that the whole prequel trilogy is far too saturated with references to the OT to be even remotely plausible.

jeez are you people slow? of course it's like that because the PT is suppoed to link to the OT. its not a conincidence it's just what happened before.

Nice.
But I agree with the rest of your post only because it's a blatant fact we all know.

I always thought that the C3PO thing was a coincidence but I guess Lucas has said it's told from the point of view of the two droids so perhaps it was necessary.
Yoda and Chewie is a small coincidence, because of the fact that he and Chewbacca never meet in the OT.
Captain Antillies, absolutely no coincidence there, C3PO states that he was their previous master in ANH and at the end of ROTS we see when he aquires the droids, makes sense.

Sorry about that Machine, I should have stated it better.

Lucas probably just wanted to see if he could top himself with all the coincidences he already put into the first trilogy (especially the last two movies, and especially Jedi).

I guess you could try to explain it all thematically as "the will of the force" moving the pieces into position for the final endgame, etc.

On the other hand, all the continuity problems to me suggest that Lucas spent all his time making up ideas and making sure the new FX shots looked the best. He probably figured his multi-million dollar book/comic franchise could catch anything he missed (and how they try!). ;)

It seems he wanted to just free himself of any constraints and then not worry if the pieces didn't quite fit. Then the agonizing (for us old timer fans) process of re-creating the original movies to match this new precedent (we figure he did it backwards). Oh well!

But yeah, concidence on top of coincidence. That's Star Wars for ya.... ;)

I'm totally with Kurgan. I felt the same way.

Most of it I let slide. The only thing that really bothered me was having Chewbacca in ROTS. He's made out to be an important Wookie. Just having the Wookie planet was enough for me to know his roots but having him actually in a position beyond just a normal warrior was too much. Created more questions than answers.

It answered questions, Trouble. Now we know who Chewbacca was, he wasn't a "normal warrior" (what ever gave you that idea), he was very high up.

RE: Does ROTS have a few too many coincidences?
 

Yes... But it doesn't keep me awake at night.

:joy:

For all of Lucas' talk about SW being an update of old Flash Gordon/ Buck Rodgers sci-fi serials,.. it seems in actuality far, far closer to the Arthurian legends, where everybody's lives were hopelessly entwined.

He obviously painted himself into a corner, having to make the story thread he concocted with Ep. 1 match with the ending part of the series he already wrote, and was forced to fuse them together. Somewhat gracelessly, in places.

Yes he was definately very high up. See Tarful was one of the Wookafarians (note the dreads) and they were known to share the ganja. Chewie wasn't really of great rank, he just smoked a bowl now and then with ol' Tarf while they listened to some reggae music. Yoda of course supplied them with some of the finest green (he IS green after all) whenever he came to visit. Yoda's robe is even made of pure hemp (when he lost it, it totally demoralized him, remember?). He's always been a great fan of the root leaf. It helps explain the crazy stories and bad memory too!

Licking Yoda also has hallucinogenic side effects. :dozey:

No wonder the Wookiees liked him so much...

lol, Irie.

its all because of the force people...

TOTALLY the root-leaf. I completely agree.

Or...

Are we just projecting?

Ummm..

Lemme take a h!t, think about it, and get back to you...

Now what were talking about again?

Oh yeah...

Hey! I am amongst the most devoted fans to the films, and I'm not sure that I've ever heard anything that alludes to Chewie being of ANY rank. I can assess that there's a reason WHY he's not infantry, but Lucas himself confessed that Chewbacca is in fact the RUNT of his litter, and-- as we can now see in Episode III-- amongst OTHER Wookies as well. HE's really NOT a warrior type, despite the impressions we may have had of him all these years. He's technically brilliant, perhaps, and COULD even have been a bit of a tactician. This might have given him rank (again, which I don't know anything about). Regardless... Yoda spoke of having good personal relations with the Wookies, and-- considering Yoda's stature-- I'd bet that those relations were with high-ranking Wookie officials. So if it's KNOWN that Chewie was of rank, then-- to me, anyways-- it only seems RIGHT that Yoda might know of him... not wierd, not coincidental, nor hard-to-swallow.

3-PO being made by little Anakin... Now THAT's just kinda cute, I suppose... It makes things a bit more intimate, and REALLY pulls for suspention of disbelief.

Not to get all wierd on you, now, but in all actuality, I simply cannot deny the immense degree of SYNCHRONICITIES in my life on a very regular, FREAKISHLY common basis. I can assure you that if anyone were to be mindful of such things in thier own life-- and I mean adopting a state of awareness and receptivity to such things throughout the day-- that they would be astounded as well at such "coincidences". It utterly astounds me to see such things that I cannot explain, but they're a part of our lives, and we rarely pay any attention to them, oftentimes ignoring or deliberately disregarding them as too freaky to really take seriously.

"Your focus determines your reality."
.................................................. ..........Qui Gonn Jinn, Episode I

"Our meeting is not a coincidence. Nothing happens by accident."
.................................................. ..........Qui Gonn Jinn, Episode I

"In my experience there's no such thing as luck."
.................................................. ..........Obi Wan Kenobi, Episode IV

Once again, I completely see what Kurgan sees.

"Your insight serves you well."
.................................................. ..........Obi Wan Kenobi, Episode VI

Databank states that Chewbacca was a member of the Wookiee High Command.

Cool. Thanks, Machine Cult. What is "Databank"? I don't doubt you, I'm just interested in checking it out, if it's a good source for info.

I can buy the coincidences in ROTS; after all, it is explaining what went on before. Of course, you are going to see people and events you know about being mentioned. I think the PT handled them better than the OT. I remember thinking ROTJ was way too contrived: Darth Vader just happens to be Luke's father; Leia just happens to be Luke's twin sister; and the worst of all, the Empire just happens to be building a second Death Star!

This just in "midichlorians" are actually a form of hallucinogenic mushroom. This explains everything!

Correction: Luke being Vader's father was introduced in ESB. ;) [Edit: strike that, reverse it] Let's just say the PT builds on the coincidences and contrivances of the OT and makes them even more crazy!

Okay, if you're going to nitpick about tiny details, get the details straight. Vader is Luke's father. In case I have to spell it out completely so you can understand, I was meaning that the details about it were told in ROTJ. Yes, the revelation is made in ESB, but the confirmation comes in ROTJ.

My bad for the typo, quite humorous of course. ;)
Anyway, no need to get upset about it, but let's face it, ROTJ didn't introduce the contrivance, ESB did, so you can't blame that on ROTJ.

Should ROTJ just have ignored the fact? Or should have Obi-Wan just said to Luke "well, the guy was lying, obviously, just forget about it."

I'd say the "big reveal" in ESB was not just a "tiny detail" merely it was the bombshell that was expanded upon in the next movie. So if you're going to use the "Vader is Luke's father" thing against ROTJ, it's really not fair, since ESB was the one that created it in the first place (contradicting ANH and making Ben into a liar). Blame ESB for making Obi-Wan a liar, ROTJ just gives us Obi-Wan's rationalization for the lies he told Luke in ANH.

It's just a ploy to integrate Lucas' cameo fest. :p

But oh well, it's cinema, and it's Star Wars. Can't ask for much more than that.

Well, you can, but you'll be sorely dissappointed. ;)

Ha-Ha-HAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!

I love it!

Ummm...

And your comment here isn't that bad either.

LOL.

You gave me the incentive to post a new thread...

Heh-Heh-Heh...

First post in this particular forum. Forgive me...

Why is everyone picking on ROTJ? There are no coincidences there. Obi-Wan simply explained what we were told in ESB. Period. Now, about ROTS...ugh.

As far as being a back story for and referencing the OT, it completely bombed. In ANH, we're told that "When I first knew him, your father was already a great pilot." Is that how one would REALLY describe an eight-year-old? Pod racin' ain't flyin'. "Let's try spinning; that's a good trick!" Also, in ESB, Vader already knew that Luke was his son. If ROTS is accurate, and the children were hidden before ANYONE in the Empire knew about it, how did Vader? And don't pull that "he used the Force" crap on me, because he didn't recognize Leia. And another point: ANH claims that Anakin wanted Luke to have his lightsaber when he was old enough. In ROTS, Anakin never said that. And that he wanted Luke to have it anyway proves that he knew about Luke before they met. Also, ESB claims that Obi-Wan was apprentice to Yoda, not that stupid hippie Qui-Gon. But that's TPM.

True. But I think that Obi Wan may have described Luke's dad as a "great pilot" "when (he) first knew him" for sake of BREVITY. Besides, we all know that Lucas didn't exactly have (nor require) the details of pod-racing back in 1976 when filming ANH. Defining Anakin as a "great pilot" sort-of embodies the pod-racing Thing.

It is likely that Vader may have recieved a premonition of his son-- the very individual who would destroy him (as Vader). It's not an uncommon element in myth for the antagonist to have knowledge of a fate of being disempowered/destroyed by his own offspring. It is NOT a common element in myth, however, for the antagonist to know what happens to the SIBLINGS of the one who will desroy him. I believe that Vader could have indeed recieved knowledge of Luke without recieving knowledge of Leia.

On film, this is true... he never said that. But a great deal of stuff wasn't SHOWN on film, though much of it is REERENCED TO on film, like the lightsaber-to-my-son request. Besides, even IF Anakin never actually spoke the words to Obi Wan (even off-film), that doesn't really mean anything anyways. Obi Wan KNEW (just as you and I know) that Anakin truly WOULD HAVE wanted such a thing. That's the beauty of the whole saga... that it was the restriction of Love that helped push Anakin to become Vader (pulled from his Mom, kept from returning to his mom, denied a loving relatationship with Amidala, etc). YET it is Love that is the root of all that saves him in the end... the Love of his son... a son created from Anakin's OWN Love. A Love strong enough to see THROUGH the evil that an entire galaxy could not see through, let alone break through. Yup. I feel that Anakin actually DID want such a thing, even though we didn't hear those words spoken in ROTS. Nobody really wants doom for themselves.

"There you will learn from Yoda, The Jedi Master who instructed me". Yoda DID instruct Obi Wan. Perhaps they weren't in a Master/Apprentice relationship, but Yoda certainly WAS an instructor for countless Jedi (just look at the class of younglings, or the teachings Yoda gives to the rest of the Jedi-- be it in council OR one-on-one). Yoda instructed Obi Wan, though Obi Wan was not his apprentice.

Details, details, details. I happen to know that almost ALL of the "discrepencies" that people find in the first trilogy (I, II, and III) can be easily explained if an honest answer is sought for. It seems to me that there are alot of people who simply WANT TO not like the first trilogy, and actually look for (or even create) reasons to find it inferior to the second, as well as sometimes ignoring explinations and correlations and "good points" that are in the first trilogy.

look in the star wars world there isnt really coincidences theres the force.

Pod racing never should have been in the prequel. Anakin never should have been an eight-year-old when he and Obi-Wan first meet. There are many things about the way Lucas told the story of the prequel that are so sub-standard for a writer...Anakin should have been introduced as a pilot (whether pod racer or other) and he should have been much older, 16 or 17 at least.

Not believable. If such divination was available to Vader, he would have been able to find Luke. It is made clear in the original trilogy that foresight is not Vader's strong point. It's more believable that he and the Emperor both knew of Luke's existence, they simply neither had the foresight to find him.

It's details like this, though, that tie the two trilogies together, make them seem part of the same story. Omission of corellations like these show that Lucas was not interesting in creating a cohesive storyline.


There is nothing to show that Yoda instructed Obi-Wan, except the reference in ESB. Again, details like these produce cohesion.

What you're saying here is ludicrous. No one has "made these discrepencies up". They exist, and have been pointed out time and time again. When telling a story, whether through a book, a movie, or speech, it is the little details that maintain the flow of the story, and tie the events together. It was especially important in this case for Lucas to focus on and include these details for two reasons: Firstly, he should have known that his fan-base has basically memorized every line from the original trilogy, and would be, themselves, focusing on these details. Secondly, because he's basically telling the story backwards, the details are the only thing we have to tie the events of the two trilogies together. These details promote familiarity from one trilogy to the next, so that, as those being told the story, we are given the creedence that we expect from our story-teller. Had Lucas done the details right, and followed the references he set down in the original trilogy, the prequel would have at least been believable as a part of the Star Wras universe (despite the lousy casting), and we would not be having this discussion right now.

wow. you have alot of spare time. i completely agree (mainly because i cant be ar*ed to read all that)

I think that Obi-Wan lied. He also didn't tell Luke that Vader was his father... When Vader knew that he had kids, he was already called Darth Vader. Why would he want Luke to have his own lightsaber and become a jedi?

Who said piloting means flying? Also, yes, that is how you describe an 8-year old if you want to praise him. Anyways, he was a good pilot with the podracers and also used an N-1 starfighter.

Considering that in what seemed as the first week of their meeting, Anakin evaded laser bolts from Droid Starfighters, blew up a Trade Federation Control Ship from the inside, AND escaped with his life, I'd say that it would be an accurate description for THIS 8 year old. :D

He had forseen his wifes death through the dreams he had why not his own? infact he even saw his mothers death i dont think its unbelievable at all that he couldnt see his own and vsions of his son.

And i think its made pretty clear in the prequel trilogy that forsight IS a strong point for him.

Padme told Anakin that she was pregnant BEFORE he became Vader.



We're shown with the pod racing that he lucked up some. But yes, he did seem to have some skill. However, would you call Mario Andretti a good pilot? Piloting does mean flying, and pod racing is NOT flying.

When young Anakin flew that N-1 he survived purely on luck. He fumble around and displayed no skill whatsoever. Lucas never should have made Anakin so young in the story. It just isn't believable.

The original trilogy is the Star Wars bible, as it was written BEFORE the prequel. All later installments must be based upon references from those first legendary films. Nothing in the prequel should be taken as Star Wars "fact". In the original trilogy, we are shown that Vader has very little, if any, foresight. The Anakin\Vader character from the prequel doesn't fit ANY of the descriptions given of him in the original trilogy.

Just to further my point about Lucas' apparent loss of writing skills, in one of the documentaries from the ROTS DVD, Lucas even comments that, although he has his technical teams working like dogs to hash out a story, he had actually begun work on neither the story nor the screenplay. Evidently, he threw something together at the last minute, and we hardcore fans are now paying for his laziness and lack of interest.

You're missing the point. He shouldn't have been that young cos' the kid was annoying lol.

I like the "coincedences". The fun of the prequels is watching the good guys get screwed over, knowing they're gonna get screwed over. It's a tradegy; and I enjoy seeing the characters being undone by circumstance.

........ that is so retarded im not even sure what to say, you are joking right?.

If I remember correctly, though, wasn't Anakin 9, or 10 in TPM? Anyways, you are forgetting about the infallable deduction that Midichlorians are the reason why Anakin can do so many things? It only stands to REASON that the Midichlorians GUIDED him to destroy the Trade Federation Control Ship; he is, don't you know, the highest in Midichlorian count at the time, so it must be that he is super intelligent with his piloting skills.

You know, he's not a normal boy. Normal boys don't fall in love with someone twice their age or so.

Padmé's not twice as old as Anakin, she's five years older than him, just so you know.

Palpy told Vader that he had killed Padme. While she was on Mustafar she was still obviously pregnant.

"NOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooo!" :p