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-   -   Leia claims she (somewhat) knew her true mother (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=162643)

The Distorted 03-20-2006 12:06 PM

Leia claims she (somewhat) knew her true mother
 
I'm referring to the scene in Episode 6: Return of the Jedi, when Leia comes to see what is bothering Luke on Endor (outside the Ewok abode), and just before Luke tells her that Vader is also on the moon, that he is his father, she is his sister and that he must face him. It's at the beginning of this conversation, when he asks Leia if she can remember her real mother at all (and he goes on to say that he can't), and she responds, "A little. Just images and feelings" - how is that possible? In Episode 3: Revenge of the Sith, Padame dies whilst in childbirth, and consequently (obviously) if anything (the irony is that) Luke (by a couple of seconds lol) knew her longer than she did.
Surely she is referring to Padame though, because she is referring to her "real mother" like Luke asked. If she is not referring to Padame than I guess she is instead referring to her adopted mother, because she might still believe at this point that she is her natural mother. We don't ever see "Lady" Organa do we? Maybe she died when Leia was small, and that explains it. Even if this is so though, that would have just been a bit weird (from a script-writing point of view) to include this confusion intentionally, thus creating potential confusion in the audience (like yours truly).

Am I missing something here, or is it just a plot-hole, that Lucas "overrode" in the prequels?

Foshjedi2004 03-20-2006 12:10 PM

This Remembrance were planted memories by Obiwan and Yoda.

Darth_Terros 03-20-2006 12:12 PM

Leia is anakins child she is strong with the force, It was a pretty emotional time for padme this might have left a force imprint on leia?

Who knows maybe as a young child Leia had force dreams of her mother?

Its just one of those things thats never mentioned

The Distorted 03-20-2006 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foshjedi2004
This Remembrance were planted memories by Obiwan and Yoda.

That's pretty cool. Thanks for the info.

Okay, one last question - when/where is that mentioned? Was it in Ep 3 perchance?

Cheers.

Darth_Terros 03-20-2006 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Distorted

Okay, one last question - when/where is that mentioned? Was it in Ep 3 perchance?

Cheers.

Its not as far as i know.

Prime 03-20-2006 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foshjedi2004
This Remembrance were planted memories by Obiwan and Yoda.

I think that is the first time I've heard of this.

Cite?

MachineCult 03-20-2006 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prime
I think that is the first time I've heard of this.

Cite?

He's speculating.
She remembers through the force, what Leia said makes sense because Padme was obviously sad because she had "lost the will to live". I've heard it said somewhere that Leia had mistaken the face of the medical droid for the face of her mother also.

The Distorted 03-20-2006 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MachineCult
He's speculating.
She remembers through the force, what Leia said makes sense because Padme was obviously sad because she had "lost the will to live". I've heard it said somewhere that Leia had mistaken the face of the medical droid for the face of her mother also.

In that case, that means that Leia might be inherently stronger in the force than even Luke, because he doesn't remember or feel anything himself.
Interesting...

As for the medical droid's face - I'm gonna have to rewatch Ep III to see what it looks like (I can't remember it at all at the moment...)

Cheers for the head's up, everybody. :)

Samnmax221 03-21-2006 08:56 PM

Well who knows since she's never really bothered to train

The Source 04-05-2006 03:17 PM

Before the 'Anihkan Trilogy', I interpreted this scene and the story very differently. From what I though had happen was that Luke found his way to Tatooine by Obi-Wan, and Leia lived with her mother in hidding. I thought Senator Organa married Padame. (Before I knew her name.)

Otherwords, Leia took off into hidding with her mother while Obi-Wan hides Luke. When their mother was in hidding, she married Senator Organa. After a few years in hidding, their mother died for some reason. I thought this explains the reason why Luke doesn't remember his mother, but Leia remembers a childhood experience with her. Otherwords, Leia had some memories of being around her mother.

This would also explain the reason why Obi-Wan was surprised during his conversation with Yoda on Daghobagh:

Obi-Wan: "That boy is our last hope."
Yoda: "No. There is another."

Obi-Wan seemed to have either forgotten, or came off a little quizical to Yoda's comments.

Prime 04-06-2006 11:50 AM

Or maybe he thought, "Yeah, but she's a girl."

:)

TSR 04-07-2006 11:22 AM

LOL
the sexism argument approaches!
maybe its one of few contradictions in the story...
well, its gotta happen!

Samnmax221 04-07-2006 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prime
Or maybe he thought, "Yeah, but she's a girl."

:)


YAAY! Rampant sexism

Get back in the kitchen if you don't want a black eye

Kurgan 04-08-2006 08:47 PM

It's a flat out contradiction that Lucas didn't think through when he was making the prequels. That's the best I can come up with.

Even before the prequels he had some EU story about Luke and Leia finding their mother. So they had to retcon this as soon as they knew from George that Padme was scheduled to die in Episode III and say it was just somebody pretending to be the mother.

Reclaimer 04-09-2006 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth_Terros
Leia is anakins child she is strong with the force, It was a pretty emotional time for padme this might have left a force imprint on leia?

Who knows maybe as a young child Leia had force dreams of her mother?

Yeah, like visions of her mother that she saw through the Force.

Kurgan 04-09-2006 01:06 PM

Which begs the question of why Padme didn't have a connection with Luke or give HIM force visions. Or why Leia didn't give force visions or have a connection with Luke...

"I have no memory of my mother, I never knew her." And according to ROTS, Luke was born first, and Padme even says a few more words to him "Oh Luke!"


They erased Luke's memory, or gave Leia false memories...? Lucas screwed up!

Jan Gaarni 04-09-2006 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurgan
They erased Luke's memory, or gave Leia false memories...? Lucas screwed up!

Big time. :rolleyes:

Melly 04-17-2006 11:02 PM

Or it could be that she didn't know she was adopted and she was speaking of Bail's wife.

Darth Alec 04-20-2006 03:02 PM

That could be possible, since we don't know when/if she died before ANH.

Elukka 04-25-2006 10:23 AM

Leia was also sensitive to the force. Anyways, my mom's friend claims she remembers her birth, so why not Leia? :P

TSR 04-26-2006 08:33 AM

your mum's friend is lying :xp:

Elukka 04-26-2006 09:02 AM

Obviously. So why not Leia. She could remember Padme somehow with the force, though.

Kurgan 04-26-2006 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melly
Or it could be that she didn't know she was adopted and she was speaking of Bail's wife.

"Do you remember your mother, your real mother?"

Not talking about Mrs. Organa.

And if Leia lied to Luke, wouldn't he be able to sense THAT through the Force? Instead he just says "I have no memory of my mother, I never knew her."

It's a contradiction. Unless you say that Leia (who was born second) has some special Force power that Luke doesn't. Oh well, I guess the Force moves in mysterious ways! Or maybe Leia has really and truly convinced herself that looking at home movies of Padme when she was a kid constitutes "knowing her real mother" and "died when I was very young" is the same as within minutes after she was born.

I don't think there's an official explanation.

Elukka 04-26-2006 02:47 PM

Ok, yes, it's a contradiction. But maybe she did lie, and Luke didn't sense it because (not knowingly) he didn't want to. Or maybe Leia just thought he remembered her mother, so in a way she could've been lieng to herself..

PoiuyWired 04-26-2006 06:47 PM

Maybe she was talking about Organa's wife who was taking care of her, and died when Leia was young.

And no, she being a girl have nothing to do with it, Leia would look just as good with a lightsaber, and in slavegirl outfit!

Kryllith 04-27-2006 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurgan
[i]
Or maybe Leia has really and truly convinced herself that looking at home movies of Padme when she was a kid constitutes "knowing her real mother" and "died when I was very young" is the same as within minutes after she was born.

I pretty much figured she was talking or misremembering old movies of Padme while she was a little girl. Padme was a public figure, I'd imagine there were tons of record of her which Leia could have been exposed to which probably seems very realistic to her as a little kid, though I figured as an adult that she knew her mother died shortly after her birth.

Kurgan 04-30-2006 06:05 PM

Here's from the movie, as posted by somebody else (it's correct):

PL = Princess Leia
L = Luke

Quote:

PL: Luke, what’s wrong.

L: Leia, do you remember your mother? Your real mother?

PL: Just a little bit. She died when I was very young.

L: What do you remember?

PL: Just images, really. Feelings.

L: Tell me.

PL: She was very beautiful. Kind, but sad. Why are you asking me this?

L: I have no memory of my mother. I never knew her.

PL: Luke tell me, what’s troubling you?

L: <Sensing something> Vader’s here. Now, on this moon.
If she remembered video speeches of Padme Amidala, why not mention words, not just "images"? And if they were just photos, she wouldn't have "feelings" from her. Padme never had the Force, so how does she use the Force to communicate with Leia? We're assuming that Leia uses the Force (unconsciously) to somehow know something about Padme, right? But she acts like Padme died when she was a little girl or something. How would you get "kind but sad" from that? It's really a stretch in any case.

And if she was lying why would Luke not want to face up to the truth? He was about to reveal to her that they were brother and sister. He should have said "You don't really know her, because I was there too, I'm your brother, she died after we were born, remember?" Then you could have her say something like "I know, somehow... I've always known" or some crap like that. Lucas obviously hadn't planned this back in 1983 how he was going to depict Padme in the prequels and her eventual fate.

We knew she died when Leia was "very young" but not that she died a few seconds after Leia was born (and Luke was born first but had no memory of her!). I'm told that scientifically understood that it's impossible for people to remember their own births, so any "memories of their mother" either of the kids had would have been through the Force or self-delusion of some kind.

aner21 01-18-2007 05:58 PM

I guess we can all agree it was a huge hole in the plot and continuity, along with the fact that vader knows she's pregnant, the emperor knows she's pregnant and also knows that vader didn't kill her and they both do nothing about it. :rolleyes: In the OT Obi-Wan says that if the emperor suspected Anakin had children he would hunt them down.Yet nothing happened. :tsk: GL screwed big time and there's no point in trying to come up with excuses. :violin: You can always make fun of the situation by saying Luke was born with his eyes closed and Leia with hers opened. So she knows her mother and he doesn't.:xp: The prequels storyline in my opinion were 65% wanting to milk the SW for what it's worth 30% based on making great visual effects and 5% about telling a coherent story that could actualy be articulated with the OT without general retcon.:doh:

Titanius Anglesmith 01-18-2007 08:13 PM

aner21, next time you post, please look at the date of last post. When no one has posted in almost 9 months, the thread is dead, and resurrecting them is a no-no. ;)

NL_Sudentor 02-26-2008 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Distorted
I'm referring to the scene in Episode 6: Return of the Jedi, when Leia comes to see what is bothering Luke on Endor (outside the Ewok abode), and just before Luke tells her that Vader is also on the moon, that he is his father, she is his sister and that he must face him. It's at the beginning of this conversation, when he asks Leia if she can remember her real mother at all (and he goes on to say that he can't), and she responds, "A little. Just images and feelings" - how is that possible? In Episode 3: Revenge of the Sith, Padame dies whilst in childbirth, and consequently (obviously) if anything (the irony is that) Luke (by a couple of seconds lol) knew her longer than she did.
Surely she is referring to Padame though, because she is referring to her "real mother" like Luke asked. If she is not referring to Padame than I guess she is instead referring to her adopted mother, because she might still believe at this point that she is her natural mother. We don't ever see "Lady" Organa do we? Maybe she died when Leia was small, and that explains it. Even if this is so though, that would have just been a bit weird (from a script-writing point of view) to include this confusion intentionally, thus creating potential confusion in the audience (like yours truly).

Am I missing something here, or is it just a plot-hole, that Lucas "overrode" in the prequels?


Indeed weird, but George could change it off course,
Obi Wan says also when luke returns to his x wing that they were separated when they were born, and that this would be a threat to anakin.

Kurgan 03-05-2008 04:53 PM

time for a monthly response? heh
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by aner21
I guess we can all agree it was a huge hole in the plot and continuity, along with the fact that vader knows she's pregnant, the emperor knows she's pregnant and also knows that vader didn't kill her and they both do nothing about it. :rolleyes: In the OT Obi-Wan says that if the emperor suspected Anakin had children he would hunt them down.Yet nothing happened. :tsk: GL screwed big time and there's no point in trying to come up with excuses. :violin: You can always make fun of the situation by saying Luke was born with his eyes closed and Leia with hers opened. So she knows her mother and he doesn't.:xp: The prequels storyline in my opinion were 65% wanting to milk the SW for what it's worth 30% based on making great visual effects and 5% about telling a coherent story that could actualy be articulated with the OT without general retcon.:doh:

I could check the scene again, but I don't think the "Luke's eyes were closed, Leia's were open" is true of that scene. I think both babies are the same (since digitally they just digitally copy and pasted one real baby to appear like twins). Besides, the infants' vision and memory wouldn't be good enough at that age to remember their mother. So once again, you'd have to use "the Force did it" as an excuse or say it was delusion. Neither is a satisfactory answer.

The bottom line is that Lucas changed his mind and didn't seem to care about the contradiction. The early drafts and behind the scenes lore before Episode III was written depict Leia living with her mother for a few years before her mother died. She was definitely NOT remembering Mrs. Organa in that scene with Luke.

Lucas passed up his change to alter or remove the scene in the 2004 release. So it remains as a major gaffe in the story...

Doc Valentine 03-11-2008 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Source
Before the 'Anihkan Trilogy', I interpreted this scene and the story very differently. From what I though had happen was that Luke found his way to Tatooine by Obi-Wan, and Leia lived with her mother in hidding. I thought Senator Organa married Padame. (Before I knew her name.)

Otherwords, Leia took off into hidding with her mother while Obi-Wan hides Luke. When their mother was in hidding, she married Senator Organa. After a few years in hidding, their mother died for some reason. I thought this explains the reason why Luke doesn't remember his mother, but Leia remembers a childhood experience with her. Otherwords, Leia had some memories of being around her mother.

This would also explain the reason why Obi-Wan was surprised during his conversation with Yoda on Daghobagh:

Obi-Wan: "That boy is our last hope."
Yoda: "No. There is another."

Obi-Wan seemed to have either forgotten, or came off a little quizical to Yoda's comments.

Haha, that is actually exactly what I thought. It just seemed to me that this was the case. I was very surprised to see what happened in Episode 3. I suppose some of the comments explaining it for the Star Wars Universe could essentially apply, but you have to admit it was kind of a mistake on Lucas' part.

DeadYorick 03-12-2008 12:59 AM

Its obvious that Lucas simply retconned it since he didn't have enough time to think of a solution to that small plot hole. Leia was probably mentioning Bails wife and didn't know he wasn't her biological father at the time. Remember Leia said she knew of her mother before Luke divulged that she was his sister

Doc Valentine 03-12-2008 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RakataDark
Its obvious that Lucas simply retconned it since he didn't have enough time to think of a solution to that small plot hole. Leia was probably mentioning Bails wife and didn't know he wasn't her biological father at the time. Remember Leia said she knew of her mother before Luke divulged that she was his sister

Now that to me, is much more plausible than the "They were implanted memories" theory. It actually makes a lot of sense when you think about it.

Gurges-Ahter 05-13-2008 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Source
Obi-Wan: "That boy is our last hope."
Yoda: "No. There is another."
Obi-Wan seemed to have either forgotten, or came off a little quizical to Yoda's comments.

This could also be explained if Yoda actually meant that Vader was the other hope; meaning he could be turned back to the light side.

Serpentine Cougar 05-15-2008 12:06 AM

Maybe Obi just didn't realize she had Force potential. Wookieepedia says her force-sensitivity didn't "surface" for several years.

Gurges-Ahter 05-15-2008 01:07 AM

Yeah that's the simplest explanation. I just wanted to throw the Vader idea out there for speculation.

Although I disagree that her force-sensitivity didn't show up for several years since she used it to communicate with Luke while he was hanging from the bottom of Cloud City at the end of ESB.

Blix 05-15-2008 02:01 AM

I guess I always just figured it was her adoptive mother, since the twins lived in different families on different planets. I believed that more so upon seeing Episode III, which I knew that Leia couldn't have possibly meant Padme`, since an Infant wouldn't remember being born.

M@RS 05-21-2008 06:55 PM

I read the Ep. 3 book and it said that Luke kept his eyes closed tight while leia's eyes were wide open staring at padme. Soooo she could remember padme's face if kept dreaming about it when she was a girl, I don't know either way it wasn't mentioned why waste time trying to figure it out?

teodesetkata 05-22-2008 01:42 PM

Figuring things out is the point of life.


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