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-   -   Mace Windu vs. Darth Sidious, fluke or fair fight? (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=167861)

ExileRevan 07-21-2006 03:42 PM

Mace Windu vs. Darth Sidious, fluke or fair fight?
 
Alright, it is my beleif that Mace Windu defeated Sidious fair and square, some say that The Emperor let him win, my question is to what point and purpose would Sidious let Mace win? You cant realy trust Ani to be loyal to you ( although he was ). Another beleif I have is about Yoda being greatly weakend by the Jedi Purge, and Mace hadnt been. What do you all think?

Darth Andrew 07-21-2006 04:07 PM

To me, it looked like Palpatine was simply bluffing so as to draw Anakin into the dark side. Anakin knew that if Palpatine was killed, he wouldn't learn the power to save Padme. Also, I'm sure Palpy did it to see where Anakin's allegiance truly went to.

Servercat 07-21-2006 11:48 PM

it looked that way to me as well and the novelization of the movie says the same thing. Mace even realizes it( at least partially) midway during the fight.

KyleOfHarpenden 07-22-2006 07:42 AM

ye it could have been a bluff becaus ei thought yoda would kick his arse(witch he probally would have done if it was more of a fair fight) Windu is strong but not the best so ye it was all a trick

itchythesamurai 07-22-2006 08:02 AM

I don't think it was all just a trick, because that means Palpatine would've just let Windu mess up his face, and you know how vain those Sith get.

Also, I didn't think Mace's death was final enough. He gets thrown out of a window, but there are ways for Jedi Masters to get around that.

Darth_Terros 07-22-2006 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by itchythesamurai
I don't think it was all just a trick, because that means Palpatine would've just let Windu mess up his face, and you know how vain those Sith get.

Dont think i've ever seen any evidence of a vain sith?

itchythesamurai 07-22-2006 10:15 AM

My logic is that Dark Jedis would be more self-centered and interested in superficial and materialistic pursuits. They like to be pampered more than their light side counterparts. It might've just been me, but the Chancellor seemed to be very mindful of his appearance before Mace Windu's attack.

Pho3nix 07-22-2006 10:24 AM

Palpatine had to "lose" so that he was able to manipulate Anakin the last bit and make him choose to go on the path to the darkside, so yes. He did lose on purpose.

johnnyoi 07-22-2006 01:16 PM

it's really simple....

If windu would have beaten Sidious, Sidious would have died, and there wouldn't have been an empire(wel not sidious' empire anyway). He wouldn't have been able to resurrect himself yet!

TK-8252 07-22-2006 01:21 PM

Officially, Sidious didn't throw the fight. Mace DID win fair and square. It has been speculated that he did let Mace win, which I can easily see why some would think so (I thought so until I heard the official explanation).

itchythesamurai 07-22-2006 02:18 PM

So if Sidious actually lost, he just turned a really bad situation to his advantage. I bet he could have still persuaded Anakin after killing Mace anyway, he's a charismatic kinda guy.

Pho3nix 07-22-2006 02:41 PM

Probably, but I still think it was part of his plan, and I don't think you should over-analyze Star Wars.

itchythesamurai 07-22-2006 02:55 PM

I agree that Star Wars should be enjoyed rather than nitpicked, but some things are open to debate, and there's fun to be had in innocent speculation. Besides, the really great movies are the ones people can discuss later.

johnnyoi 07-22-2006 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by itchythesamurai
I agree that Star Wars should be enjoyed rather than nitpicked, but some things are open to debate, and there's fun to be had in innocent speculation. Besides, the really great movies are the ones people can discuss later.

right on! :D

Black Jesus 07-27-2006 06:31 AM

This link has a decent look at it.

I think Sidious, with his vast abilities, let Mace "gain the advantage", when he had none all along.

RC-1162 07-27-2006 08:20 AM

it was a gawddamn fluke :xp: and nobody say otherwise!

Davinq 07-27-2006 10:08 PM

I think it was BECAUSE of the Jedi Purge that Sidious was able to win, because it weakened Mace enough by causing enough of a distraction for Anakin to amputate away.

TK-8252 07-27-2006 10:24 PM

"The character profiles for both Windu and Palpatine on the official Star Wars website describe Windu as gaining the advantage, and make no mention of Palpatine throwing the fight."

"The book "The Making of Star Wars Revenge of the Sith" mentions that this particular scene was edited with the intention of making so that Palpatine did not fake his loss in the lightsaber duel."

Now that that's settled...

Kain 07-27-2006 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servercat
it looked that way to me as well and the novelization of the movie says the same thing. Mace even realizes it( at least partially) midway during the fight.

I want the quote from the novel where it says Mace realizes he's being toyed with.

Davinq 07-28-2006 12:36 AM

Can't help you there... hey Kain are you a member of the LotR TLA by any chance?

Bill-Ba D'Kota 07-29-2006 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny Qel-Droma
I think it was BECAUSE of the Jedi Purge that Sidious was able to win, because it weakened Mace enough by causing enough of a distraction for Anakin to amputate away.

How is this possible? Mace was defeated by Sidious and Anakin before any purging took place. Remember, it was after Anakin swore allegiance to Sidious that Sidious executed Order 66... Darn Jedi.. they are relentless.

RC-1162 07-29-2006 04:11 AM

the thing is, Mace shouldnt have kept talking "oh, im going to end this...". he should have just taken off Palpy's head before anakin made it to the office

MachineCult 07-29-2006 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny Qel-Droma
I think it was BECAUSE of the Jedi Purge that Sidious was able to win, because it weakened Mace enough by causing enough of a distraction for Anakin to amputate away.

lol, like Bill said, Mace was killed BEFORE the purge so you fail totally and completely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RC 1162
the thing is, Mace shouldnt have kept talking "oh, im going to end this...". he should have just taken off Palpy's head before anakin made it to the office

He couldn't really move his saber because he was holding to shield himself from Palpatines lightning.

RC-1162 07-29-2006 11:19 AM

^^^
no, i meant just after Mace knocks Palpy's saber out of the window, where he makes Palpy crawl backward by holding his saber point at Palpy's throat. at that time, Anakin enters. i'm saying Mace should have just beheaded old Sidious when he had the clear shot instead of going into saying what he would do.

St. Jimmy 07-29-2006 11:49 PM

I hate it when Hero's do that.

Faaip De Oaid 08-03-2006 06:39 PM

Well Lucas planned for him to die so they had to make him do something stupid enough that would get him killed.

Negative Sun 08-17-2006 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Jesus
This link has a decent look at it.

I think Sidious, with his vast abilities, let Mace "gain the advantage", when he had none all along.

"In the Revenge of the Sith-video game, Windu has a slightly more alternative death. Instead of cutting off his hand, Anakin blocks Windu's attack on the Chancellor and the player ends up dueling the Jedi Master. In the end, Skywalker stabs Windu and kicks him out the same window from which he fell in the film."

Anakin beating Mace???
haha I don't f***ing think so!!!

Great Scott! 08-17-2006 04:55 PM

Uhhh, pretty sure he is the chosen one...

Why does everyone think Mace Windu is some super-natural all-powerful being?

DarthMuffin 08-17-2006 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nintendork
Uhhh, pretty sure he is the chosen one...

Why does everyone think Mace Windu is some super-natural all-powerful being?

Yet he didn't beat Obi-Wan. And I think there's way too much fuss about the "chose one" thingy. Mace isn't a super powerful god, but neither is Anakin. They are both humans.

As far as I am concerned, I strongly believe that Mace won. Yes, it was probably easier for Palpy to convert Anakin with the turn of event. But knowing how much he loves power (that's pretty much the only thing he loves), I don't think he would risk loosing everything only to convert Anakin. At that point, the future of the Sith rested solely on his shoulders. He wouldn't risk it.

Anakin might have been his most powerful weapon, but it's not his only one.

YertyL 08-18-2006 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Negative_Sun
"In the Revenge of the Sith-video game, Windu has a slightly more alternative death. Instead of cutting off his hand, Anakin blocks Windu's attack on the Chancellor and the player ends up dueling the Jedi Master. In the end, Skywalker stabs Windu and kicks him out the same window from which he fell in the film."

Anakin beating Mace???
haha I don't f***ing think so!!!

Hmm how about
Anakin beating Dooku?
haha I don't f***ing think so!!!

And btw. nobody willingly offers his hands to be cut off.

Samurai DD 08-18-2006 11:55 AM

I choose to believe that Windu won the lightsaber battle, and that Palpatine became aware that Anakin would come only after he was under Mace's blade. C'mon, Windu is impossible to beat in duel, as far as we know, but maybe Sidious could beat him, we don't know about his fighting style as much. But I only choose to believe that, as it is open to debate until George comes out and says this or that.

Negative Sun 08-18-2006 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nintendork
Uhhh, pretty sure he is the chosen one...

Why does everyone think Mace Windu is some super-natural all-powerful being?

Chosen One or not, he couldn't beat Mace one his best day...Like it was said before, he couldn't beat Obi-Wan in a fair duel, what chance does he have against Mace?

Kain 08-19-2006 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samurai DD
it is open to debate until George comes out and says this or that.

Yea, except that it has been said, on SW.com, which is exactly as GL wants it and has all the facts straight from him, that Windu won. There is no debate - its basically people who've read the official explination on SW.com and those who are completely dillusional in their observations.

DarthMuffin 08-19-2006 12:02 PM

It says somewhere in the databank (couldn't find it anymore; perhaps they edited it) that Windu had only been beaten in a duel by two other Jedi: Yoda and Dooku. Since Anakin did beat Dooku, one can believe that he could also beat Windu. But then, it was a 2v1 on Dooku for some time, so it's not exactly a "fair duel". Same thing with Windu in the video game ("tired" of his duel against Palpy).

EDIT: Found it. It's in the expended universe tab for Windu.

Quote:

In his day, Mace was one of the best lightsaber fighters of the Jedi order. It was said only two opponents ever bested him -- Yoda, and Dooku.
But then, that's technically from the EU. So it can obviously be considered as a heap of crap.

PoiuyWired 08-19-2006 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Negative_Sun
Chosen One or not, he couldn't beat Mace one his best day...Like it was said before, he couldn't beat Obi-Wan in a fair duel, what chance does he have against Mace?

Well, Vader did beat Obi-Wan eventually...

That aside, there are rarely fair duels, unless its ... well... a duel. Even that is subject to debate, from mental condition to surprise factor to equipment to ... you got the idea.

Usually good guys and bad guys don't stand around the raing and goes "Round One Fight!!!" as they jump apart from each other and start their moves., and Jedi Power Battles does not count.

So Technically Mace/Sidious is not a fair fight, nor did Anakin/ObiWan.

Negative Sun 08-19-2006 01:07 PM

Good point...but Anakin is still a wimp

TK-8252 08-19-2006 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PoiuyWired
Well, Vader did beat Obi-Wan eventually...

Only because he LET him beat him. :dozey:

And Obi-Wan probably hadn't picked up a lightsaber in years... Vader, however, trained regularly.

Pho3nix 08-19-2006 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TK-8252
Only because he LET him beat him. :dozey:

And Obi-Wan probably hadn't picked up a lightsaber in years... Vader, however, trained regularly.

And not to mention the age difference.

DarthMuffin 08-19-2006 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pho3nix
And not to mention the age difference.

Age matters not! as Yoda would say if he had read this.

PoiuyWired 08-19-2006 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pho3nix
And not to mention the age difference.

Well, Vader can DEFINITELY get "accessability parking space" but the same cannot be said for ObiWan.

And, I do think that ObiWan cannot beat Vader even if he tried, or he might actually try to "beat some sense into him" or something.


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