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_x_Darth-Max_x_ 10-08-2006 04:04 PM

-Capital Ships-
 
Well.. i was looking at the Capital ships from all Factions.. And i noticed That the StarDestroyer Really gets the end of the stick.. :vsd:

Stardestroyer - Tractor beam
Kedalba - Shield leech
Agressor - Proton blast/ Ion Blast
Mon Calamari Cruiser - Boost shields..

I will start with the ISD

The ISD has a Tractor beam that's only effictive against Smaller Ships ( no Capital) And it does no Damage , + The Rebel Corvette can just boost Engines to get out..

Then there are people who say ; ''Yeah but The ISD gets a Whole Compliment of Fighters..'' , Okay i can understand Partially what u mean.. But if u place a Corvette or 2 Right next to ure Cap ship .. the Bombers wont even Come close..

Kedalba..- Not much to say here.. Seems better then the ISD, as the Shield leech ability makes u able to Drain shields.. and Get more Firepower at the same time..

Agressor - about this thing im Worried.. The First shot Immobilizes ( No escape ) , The 2nd Shot.. Kills smaller ships Entirely , and Destroys Hardpoints at bigger ships.. Seems very deadly!

Mon Calamari Cruiser - No Shield generator as Hard Point?. A big advantage for the Mon calamari Cruiser. The Boost shield power is good for when u are getting Overwhelmed and want to make it to a Safe distance.

Of course the Empire gets the SSD.. but it will Cost a Lot of Money , And how will the Empire be able to keep the Enemy ships at bay until the SSD is ready to be used..+ Not to mention the New mon Calamari Frigates.. Which will probably rip Right through Victory Sd's :smash:


Discuss!

Artoo-Eetoo 10-08-2006 04:22 PM

ISD - As you said the main ability of our belowed symbol of the empire are TIE's so i think they will get upgraded (Tie interceptors) ... i remember when i played my modded demo those TIE were kicking.. me like hmm so that proglem out.

Kedalba - We don't konw much only that it leaches shields so i have a small teory it won't be super strong so using it with oter coruption unit will make it succesfull to operate corvets for def Frigates for extra fire power..

Agressor - (My favorite) Ok Agressors will be slow and lightl defended from the back, it will function primary as an artilery unit and will require coperation from coruption forces like Kedalba

Mon Calamari Cruiser - Mon's hmm ... hmmm get it separated from the main force and attack them with ion cannons (Tie defenders ability or our Agressor) they have a not so stron armor so the will be eaisly destroyed when thier shields will be down.

_x_Darth-Max_x_ 10-08-2006 04:57 PM

ISD will get Tie Interceptors i guess.. Although Tie Interceptors are better, They are still Cannon Fodder for a few Corvettes...Tie defenders on the Other hand.. ( Aren't these only Garrisoned by a Few: SSD,Piet,Thrawn?)

I think , 2 Kedalba Class Capital Ships ,And 1 Agressor Class Capital Ship. Will be very effictive... While the Kedalba's Eat away at the shields, The Agressor will blow Away massive chunks :launcher:

I still think Mon Calamari should been given 1 Shield Generator * or 2 , Which is Stated in Some Mon Calamari Schematics*

I also doubt that the Agressor will be Lightly Armored, As Mentioned by one of the Devs ... the Consortium has Expensive ships.. But ooohh they pack a Big punch

Long live the Empire!

Darth Anarch 10-08-2006 07:52 PM

A big punch, yes, but with poor armour. That's what the devs said.

Valter 10-08-2006 09:38 PM

All the capital ships have their own advantages. None are better than the others.

Star Destroyers can trap corvettes with their tractor beams and can release TIE fighters and bombers without affecting the population cap.

Mon Cal cruisers specialize in combat with massive warships and corvettes but are completely helpless against small fighters.

I have not used the Keldabe yet so I don't know it's strengths or weaknesses.

The Aggressor is a hulking thug with a glass jaw. It can easily disable enemy capital ships with it's heavy cannon but it is rendered useless without it.

I think every capital ship has it's own strengths and weaknesses. It falls into the hands of the player to use each capital ship's strengths effectivly while trying to cover it's weaknesses.

TheMonsterOfTheIsland 10-08-2006 11:14 PM

ISD's work just fine. Has anyone noticed them being grossly deficient in firepower? Because I have not.

Of course, if you really want ISD's to be the invincible juggernaughts they are in canon...

X. M. L.

One star destroyer varient that I made had enhanced shields, additional weapons hardpoints stacked on top of their basic ones, and lots more fighters.

Imbalanced? Sure

Bloody fun for someone who enjoys seeing a stardestroyer kick the living crap out of several enemy ships? Definitely

I really love petro for the XML thing...

Let's me throw balance right out the door when I want to...

Not to say that I never play with balanced settings; I usually do. LOL

_x_Darth-Max_x_ 10-09-2006 10:04 AM

Lol Well i dont wanna tinker with the XML Files..:)

Artoo-Eetoo 10-09-2006 12:58 PM

Some data about the Kedable hot frrom the master text file:

TEXT_TOOLTIP_KEDALBE_BATTLESHIP The Keldabe-class, named for Mandalore's capital city, is another product of Mandal Hypernautics. It is a heavy capital ship, competing with Imperial Star Destroyers.

+Some text like use the drain shields on that rebel space station and useing them (their power) aginst it :)

_x_Darth-Max_x_ 10-09-2006 02:31 PM

That doesn't sound to good for the ISD

TheMonsterOfTheIsland 10-09-2006 05:42 PM

Well, you can't complain if you're lazy :-)

i'm suprised that petro is as responsive to the community as it is. A snottier company would just say, "You have the xml, fix it yourself."

I remember little about programming from my class and even I can beef up a star destroyer lol!

Rust_Lord 10-10-2006 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMonsterOfTheIsland
Well, you can't complain if you're lazy :-)

i'm suprised that petro is as responsive to the community as it is. A snottier company would just say, "You have the xml, fix it yourself."

I remember little about programming from my class and even I can beef up a star destroyer lol!

Champ, I for one have done no programming in my life and I know there are others who fiddle with XMLs etc quite proficiently too with equally little formal training. God bless XML's and to Petro using them.

As for the cap ships, I agree the ISDs should be the lords of space they are meant to be BUT the devs have tried to make something of a balance without the pirates/rebs needing an armada of ships just to take on one ISD. I dont think any one pirate ship should be able to match an ISD, the empire would not allow such a theat to emerge, but the pirates stuff will have some weakness themselves, we just havent played with them enough yet.

Darth Windu 10-10-2006 10:11 AM

But then the pirates should need an armada to take down an ISD. Mind you, I'm personally not fond of the idea that a criminal organisation can militarily stand up to the Empire and Rebellion, but there you go.

I also love the XML file system which can be easily edited, and like many here I have no formal computer training. But since it is so easy to use, I can go ahead and under-power the crims. :)

jedi jim 1989 10-10-2006 11:44 AM

id like an imp star to b able to go toe to toe with any enemy cap ship and have no trouble taking it out, but in any game you need balance. personly i feel that if a game doent have balance then its not fun for the simple fact that its to easy or to hard, for example, if star destroyers were as tough as in cannon then it wouldnt be fun playin the empire, you'd just make a few as a fleet and that would be pretty much impenetrable.

_x_Darth-Max_x_ 10-10-2006 11:59 AM

Im not asking for the Imperial stardestroyer , To be the 1# Capital ship , That is the Executor's Place :p. I just think the Imperial Star destroyer should be very slightly buffed in Terms of weaponry.. Maybe add 1 Turbolaser?

+ I like the idea ,of a Criminal organisation rising to power.. Black sun's Head was a Competitor of Darth vader to become the right hand of the Emperor , Darth vader eventually destroyed Xizor with a ISD.. And some help from rebels, and Dash rendar

HerbieZ 10-10-2006 04:52 PM

To be honest, comparison is a very bleak way of looknig at it. This is a strategy game, and a brilliant stratagist, such as myself will emplure the tractor beam and use it to it's maximum potencial to reach my goals. It is indeed a very useful tool. You jsut need to know WHEN to use it.

_x_Darth-Max_x_ 10-10-2006 05:08 PM

Yes the tractor beam can indeed be very handy .. a Escaping Corvette for Example.. Although the Mon calamari has A : No shield generator , B: Boost shields Makes u Invulnerable and Replenishes shields right?

Rust_Lord 10-11-2006 11:40 PM

I agree with jedi Jim. I hate having to tip toe around with an ISD. Windu, ur right an ISD should be able to take on a fleet of lesser ships and criminals getting their hands on the the best tech i disagree with but as Jim and I said, there needs to be a balance for the game. PG has give the ZC a bit of colour, made them interesting and given them cool stuff. If PG made the ZC a merely expanded pirate faction who needed to field a huge number of second rate pirate craft, old dreadnoughts etc they wouldnt have the same appeal. As much of a stickler for accuracy and canon im just going to have to do what i do when I watch a James Bond film; leave reality at home and enjoy the movie.

I think the ISD should get an extra 2 turbo lasers and 2 ions considering they have nearly twice as many weapons as an MC80. That would be a fair representation of its firepower. As for the tractor beam...its useless when it needs it most (battling an MC80) but its GREAT for holding onto the Falcon and destroying it quickly.

One last thing about the Executor; on IGN I saw one of its abilities is to scramble all its fighter squadrons at once! How awesome would that be! Id love to see every ISD get that.

lordzack 10-12-2006 01:30 PM

Nearly twice? The MC80 has 40 Turbolasers and 40 Ion Cannons. That's not nearly twice.

Rust_Lord 10-12-2006 08:19 PM

No the MC80 has 48 TLs and 20 Ions while the ISD 1 has 60 TL and 60 Ion. A more accurate reflection would be for the ships to have 1 weapon for every 10 they are supposed to have...with 6 Ions the ISD would be a true dealer of death and offset the shield boost ability.

lordzack 10-12-2006 08:58 PM

Ah, sorry. I was sure it was 40 each, though. And I'm pretty sure It's like that in the RPG.

Darth Windu 10-13-2006 03:26 AM

Rust - sure, PG need to balance the game, but that doesnt mean every side gets the same thing. In the RTS 'Axis & Allies', the Germans, British, Americans and Soviets all get Heavy Tanks (actually the Germans get two, the second of which is better than all other heavies) but the Japanese dont. Instead they get the tankette which is like the light tank, only cheaper.

Basically the possible imbalance created by Japan not having the big heavy unit is balanced by giving them cheaper small units - which is how I think the Consortium should have been protrayed.

Almorac-Shinomi 10-15-2006 02:12 PM

Well guys you have to remember we aren't talking about two factions anymore, this is three factions. Tyber Zann needs a ship that can compete with the Rebel's Mon Calamari fleet and the Empire's fleet of ISDs, Interdictors, and Victorys.
So when you think about it the ISD isn't really getting pushed back, each faction needs a battleship of sorts(Rebs are Mon Cal, Imps are ISD, and Consortium is Kedalba.)
(This is more in reply to earlier posts in the topic.)

Boba Fett 1991 10-15-2006 02:44 PM

Do you people want realism or a good game? Seriously, I understand what you are saying, but don't overdo it. The Black Market has many OUTLAWED weapons. That would explain the powerful weapons. I also remember seeing something that said that Consortium units in genreal, have weak armor. A perfect weakness to exploit.

Darth Anarch 10-15-2006 08:49 PM

Yeah, I'm with Boba. Stop worrying so much about realism and accept the fact that it's necessary to make a balanced game. After all, what fun would it be to play a faction whose biggest, baddest capital ship was a modified bulk freighter?

darthcarth 10-15-2006 10:18 PM

I agree

if htier are 2 anti fighter ships and 1 capital ship on each side the empire is a a great disadvantage. Lets do this with the empire vs the rebelsso a isd sends its fighter out they get creamed by the corleian corvette, they go into direct battle and lose because of the mon cals boost sheild ability unbalanced.

now with the ZC the isd sends out its fighter once again they get creamed they og into direct combat and the isd loses because of the agresors ion canon and proton thing.

Darth Windu 10-16-2006 02:57 AM

But realism is very important, especially in games like this. After all, if every faction had ISD's, Mon Cal Cruisers and if Luke was a 10ft giant with lightsabres for arms, it wouldn't be a good Star Wars game now would it?

As I pointed out with the Axis & Allies example, you don't have to give evry side the same sort of unit in order for the game to be balanced. I personally would rather see the Consortium have cheaper, smaller ships rather than an ISD killer.

Perhaps rather than having a battleship, the Consortium could have had a 'ramship' that is unarmed and small, but flies straight into an enemy battleship, damaging it.

Valter 10-16-2006 01:05 PM

balance > realism

Darth Windu, your first example is ridiculously exaggerated so I won't address it.

If the Consortium had cheaper, smaller ships they wouldn't stand a chance against either side. The philosophy of the Consortium is to use units that can deal out the punishment but can't take the punishment. Tyber is the type of character who is willing to deal out cash for quality units and weapons. Sort of the "you pay crap and you get crap, you pay gold and you get gold" kind of person. Besides, the "cheaper, smaller ship" philosophy is already used by the Empire.

A 'ramship' is no more Star Wars like than a ten foot Luke with lightsaber arms. A 'ramship' would cause balance problems anyway, like taking out a space station or a star destroyer with one attack.

wedge2211 10-16-2006 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valter
Besides, the "cheaper, smaller ship" philosophy is already used by the Empire.

Imperial. Star. Destroyer. Ahem.

Actually, I'd like to see a 'ramship' for the Consortium. They've already sort of got that, with the self-destruct ability on the Vengeance frigates. But the Zann consortium definitely seems like the kind of guys who'd take a clunky, broken-down old frieghter, load it with a transponder that would get it in past the first line of enemy fleet defense, and pack the cargo bay full of explosives. Tyber Zann would certainly appreciate getting a lot of "bang" for his buck! I bet Petrogylph will surprise us in this department...

darthfergie 10-16-2006 09:21 PM

I ditto Darth Windu. I did actually expect the largest ship in the pirate fleet to be a hack job of a star destroyer or a tricked out bulk cruiser or some dreadnaughts. Have lots of small fast ships and several ships with very crazy weaponry. So far we're seeing bits and pieces of the of the crazy tactics, but at the same time we're seeing big ships that can go toe to toe with ISDs which is insane. ISDs should be in a land all their own in terms of might. Mon Cals are converted cruise liners, ISDs could toss them in the waste bin toe to toe. Oh well, such is XML.
I figured that the pirates would have lots of units, not zillions, more like, exotic units rather than massive hunks of metal eclipsing the sun.
Although I would love to see Pirates have the ability to capture enemy ships. That would make me very happy. Taking over an SSD and using it at reduced efficiency would be a very happy thing indeed. Can you say Warlord?

I just don't think you can continue to make up huge ships that somehow never made it into any books, but they are out there and are bigger than ISDs (when you consider how notable Booster's Errant Venture is, it doesn't make a whole bunch of sense).

darthcarth 10-17-2006 07:30 PM

i agree balance is important valter but the thing is it isnt balanced a cheaper mon cal cruiser cna kill a more expensive isd, also ram ships arent uncan what do u do with a ship that has its weapons disabled sned it into the enemys ships or make it explode.

Darth Windu 10-18-2006 02:13 AM

Exactly. Just like in the original C&C where Nod didn't have anything that could go head-to-head with a Medium Tank or a Mammoth Tank, yet they could still win. Also like in 'Generals' where the GLA doesn't really have any heavy armour or airpower, yet their suicide weapons (truck, suicide bomber) and very effective.

Valter 10-18-2006 03:37 AM

Well, I'm fine with the Consortium units that Petroglyph has created. If you don't like the units or how powerful they are then just use mods or tweak the XML.

Rust_Lord 10-18-2006 04:15 AM

>>we're seeing big ships that can go toe to toe with ISDs which is insane.

>>it isnt balanced a cheaper mon cal cruiser cna kill a more expensive isd

Cant agree more; EaW is the only star wars game that I know of where the ISD is weaker than a MC. Sure in Rebellion the MC had it over the ISD is some areas but overall the ISD was still better and the ISD II was far superior. In EaW the ISD has less firepower (fires less pulses), has less HPs and has a critical flaw being the shield generator; AND its more expensive. Who cares if the ISD costs 6000, id prefer to see it be the best capital ship available and it seems many others feel the same way. One corvette renders the ISDs fighters useless; an ISD and a tartan against an MC and a corvette will always lose. Speaking of corvettes, they are not very balanced either; the corvette has 8 lasers compared to the tartans 4 and costs only 100 extra; even if the tartan is a little tougher, it will still only last 10 seconds against a cap ship rather than a corvettes 8 seconds (not being literal but you know what i mean).

The ram ships could work and they wouldnt be overpowering either; an ISD for instance would be able to tractor beam one before it got pounded by another. A Mon Cal could absorb one detonation with a timely use of its shield boost ability but would be vulnerable to another attack when this ability was over. I could see how it would work nicely. It depends on how powerful the blast was made...and the downside could be hypering in it too close to the enemy where it would be destroyed quickly or escorting it to the enemy and risk a premature detonation from enemy fire that frags your own ships. It could be great fun.

I guess cloaking is effectively what I would have liked to have seen the ZC ships get and that is like a 'civilian mode' where their ships could cruise around and not appear as enemy craft until they rolled out their guns like merchant raiders in WW2. The ZC ships could break off and if they got out of visual range they could activate civilian mode again. But cloaking basically does this so...

And Windu is right...the GLA are totally unique compared to the other factions in Generals and they are very balanced.

Darth Ablett 10-18-2006 05:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rust_Lord
>>we're seeing big ships that can go toe to toe with ISDs which is insane.

>>it isnt balanced a cheaper mon cal cruiser cna kill a more expensive isd

Cant agree more; EaW is the only star wars game that I know of where the ISD is weaker than a MC. Sure in Rebellion the MC had it over the ISD is some areas but overall the ISD was still better and the ISD II was far superior. In EaW the ISD has less firepower (fires less pulses), has less HPs and has a critical flaw being the shield generator; AND its more expensive. Who cares if the ISD costs 6000, id prefer to see it be the best capital ship available and it seems many others feel the same way. One corvette renders the ISDs fighters useless; an ISD and a tartan against an MC and a corvette will always lose. Speaking of corvettes, they are not very balanced either; the corvette has 8 lasers compared to the tartans 4 and costs only 100 extra; even if the tartan is a little tougher, it will still only last 10 seconds against a cap ship rather than a corvettes 8 seconds (not being literal but you know what i mean).

I was going to post something in this thread, but this pretty much sums it up. Great post, btw.

Imperial Star Destroyers should be better. I don't care about XML, I care about out of the box balance. For gameplay reasons, I'm fine with the Mon Cals having better shielding, and even the advantage of no specific hardpoint. The ISD should however, completely eclipse the Mon Cal in arnament and hull armour. Warship vs converted liner, you do the maths. In ship-to-ship combat, it should be no contest 1-on-1.

As for the Consortium, having powerful large ships is ok, but I think these should be grossly deficient in certain areas, or in limited supply. A full fleet of ISD analogues owned by 1 guy? I know gameplay > realism (fantasy story), but that's stretching it.

Also, I think corvettes in general are too good, but that's another story. :smash:

wedge2211 10-18-2006 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth Windu
Exactly. Just like in the original C&C where Nod didn't have anything that could go head-to-head with a Medium Tank or a Mammoth Tank, yet they could still win. Also like in 'Generals' where the GLA doesn't really have any heavy armour or airpower, yet their suicide weapons (truck, suicide bomber) and very effective.

The same goes for StarCraft, which had the classic combination of "really expensive, powerful unit faction," "really cheap, weak unit faction," and "middle-of-the-road faction." And, in fact, one of the most effective units in the game were the Zerg Scourge, diabolically cheap anti-air suicide units. Exactly the sort of ends-justify-the-means, sneak-attack sort of thing I'd expect from a guy like Tyber Zann.

Actually, a neat ability for the Consortium might be to designate one of their ships per battle as a bomb carrier, and have that ship launch a suicide attack against an enemy capital ship. Then there would be an element of surprise--you don't know whether it's that squad of blastboats, that troop transport, or that Vengeance frigate that's suddenly going to ram your capital ships.

Rust_Lord 10-19-2006 04:28 AM

>>The ISD should however, completely eclipse the Mon Cal in arnament and hull armour.

Funny you should say that because, I think its in the game contants folder, but the ISD does have better armour than the MC; so this makes the disparity between the two ships even more alarming. By way or armour, I mean the MC will take full damage from a ISD hit whereas an ISD takes 75% damage (its multiplier is .75).

I cant believe i forgot about Star Craft too...good call...damn that was a great game. The format was as you said Wedge but it had balance issues as well...I remember a 4v4 between 4 humans and 4 hard computers and when the computer had a couple of protoss players it would combine forces and march about 2 dozen zealots to one persons base! We all used to pray we werent the closest to them...which reminds me, prolly a bit off topic but anyone noticed the Bothan Frenzy space map AI if you play against rebels. I had a 2v2 with all computers and they spammed over a dozen corvettes and gunships. Even using VSDs and ISDs they were just too strong, since they would hunt in packs of at least 6. Really nasty. Depended on how much of a jump they got with resources early though...

Boba Fett 1991 10-20-2006 11:23 PM

I guess some people are just stubborn at accepting certain things. I'm not going to bother.

darthcarth 10-21-2006 01:59 AM

Umm then basicly your post was spam, i use mods most of the time to make up for this but realy eaw should have more canonness to it i cant even stand one skimish because of the lack of balance.

Darth Windu 10-21-2006 05:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boba Fett 1991
I guess some people are just stubborn at accepting certain things. I'm not going to bother.

As DarthCarth pointed out, this is spam. Please do not do it again.

Actually I just had a new idea as well. How about instead of having a 'ramship' or something like that, the Consortium can 'upgrade' any of their ships, packing them full of explosives? So basically you've got a Consortium frigate that fights like any other ship. You then pay a certain amount (a percentage of original ship cost) to remove its weapons and pack it with explosives. Then, go into a battle and tell it to attack an enemy ship. Instead of firing, it moves as close as possible and detonates itself.

This removes the need for an obvious suicide-ship, gives the Consortium some more devious play options, and removes the need to have a big battleship which is unrealistic.

Thoughts?

ImpElite 10-21-2006 11:25 AM

Sounds cool to me, it would just get tiring to have to switch your weapons at the end of every battle if you wanted explosives on him now or weapons on him, 'Course I COULD just make half the ones I make explosive and the other half have weapons..... Not a bad idea at all DarthWindu! :)


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