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-   -   North Korea says nuclear test successful. (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=171424)

Windu Chi 10-09-2006 02:02 AM

North Korea says nuclear test successful.
 
North Korea apparently have the bomb. *News link*

Apparently the wasted time and resourses in Iraq have came back to hunt the United States.

If North Korea really possess a nuclear bomb then there is going to be hell to pay.
The time of the apparent nuclear test was at 9:36 p.m. EDT Sunday in Hwaderi near Kilju city cited, South Korean defense officials.


*WARNING*
Iran will be the next country to possess the bomb, in a short period of time.

Dagobahn Eagle 10-09-2006 02:31 AM

They said it wa successful. North Korea says a lot of things. You might as well believe in goblins if you trust them for as much as a second. Isn't it just as likely that they waited for a convenient natural earthquake and then claim it was caused by their new toy, Mr. Nuke?

Sure, it's possible that they detonated an atomic bomb in a bunker someplace (probably ten times more likely than my "convenient earthquake" story). In which case I suppose they've gotten themselves a guarantee that the US's Armed Forces will stay off of them. But I have my doubts.

I wonder how many starving kids the atomic program would feed...

rccar328 10-09-2006 12:33 PM

Well, they've been talking about a nuke test for about a week now - I think I heard the plan was to detonate the bomb in a cave...but though what they say and reality aren't always in line, for all practical purposes, I don't see why we shouldn't take them at their word - when it comes to nukes, the stakes are a bit too high, imo.

And North Korea's past relationship with Iran virtually guarantees that Ahmadinejad will have a nuke of his own - probably sooner, rather than later.

I'd like to send a special thank-you out to Bill Clinton, without whose diplomatic bungling this wouldn't have been possible...

ET Warrior 10-09-2006 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rccar328
I'd like to send a special thank-you out to Bill Clinton, without whose diplomatic bungling this wouldn't have been possible...

And Bush helped matters soooo much by labeling N. Korea as a part of the 'axis of evil'.

:dozey:

Mace MacLeod 10-09-2006 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rccar328
I'd like to send a special thank-you out to Bill Clinton, without whose diplomatic bungling this wouldn't have been possible...

Yeah, it's all Clinton's fault. That whole "Not going in guns blazing at the slightest provocation" policy of his...I tell ya...

rccar328 10-09-2006 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ET Warrior
And Bush helped matters soooo much by labeling N. Korea as a part of the 'axis of evil'.

:dozey:

Not really.

The Clinton admin gave North Korea nuclear technology on the condition that North Korea wouldn't use it to develop weapons...and then did nothing about it when they did start a nuke program. It would do us some good if someone would do something about the situation beyond labels and endless talks...but the rumor mill has it that the US is going to go the the UN and propose sanctions, which I'm sure will deter Kim Jong Il for all of 0.25 seconds.

My question is, when is the 'world community' going to finally stop playing PC games with these brutal dictators and start taking action?

Dagobahn Eagle 10-09-2006 08:02 PM

Quote:

My question is, when is the 'world community' going to finally stop playing PC games with these brutal dictators and start taking action?
What kind of "action" are we discussing here? If you refer to this kind, I'm out.

TK-8252 10-09-2006 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rccar328
The Clinton admin gave North Korea nuclear technology on the condition that North Korea wouldn't use it to develop weapons...and then did nothing about it when they did start a nuke program.

And who was sitting on the board of directors for ABB, the British firm that engineered the nuclear technology for North Korea.

Donald Rumsfeld.

Dagobahn Eagle 10-09-2006 10:40 PM

And what, exactly, should Clinton have done? Started the 3rd Korean War? Imposed economic sanctions on an already impoverished country that does not care about its poverty in the first place (OK, so its people does, but I don't know if the government even cares if it has a people to take care of - the party members get rich in other ways :rolleyes: ).

Diplomacy's worked many times in the past, still work, and will always work. It might be too boring and polite for certain peoples' tastes, but it has a tendency of not getting people bombed, shot at, molested, and occupied. Furthermore, North Korea's leaders apparently tend to look at threats and "roughness" as challenges that merely make them more determined to reach their goals.

Nuclear Documentary.

Jae Onasi 10-10-2006 01:45 AM

N. Korea's leaders do like playing brinksmanship with the world....
Only problem is, if you feel like you have to pee into the wind to prove your manhood, sometimes you end up getting wet when it all blows back at you.

Emperor Devon 10-10-2006 01:53 AM

F***, I live in the blast radius of Seattle.

I do not find any comfort in the idea of North Korea being invaded when I'm a bunch of radioactive particles of dust protons. Threats like these seem so much more threatening when there's a chance, however slight, you can be affected by them. Hopefully this'll be resolved before Kim goes even more over the brink and develops missles with a longer range...

*Devon curses the luck of those who don't live by the coast!* :fist:

Q 10-10-2006 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dagobahn Eagle
Diplomacy's worked many times in the past, still work, and will always work.

Not always:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeasement_of_Hitler :)

I do, however, agree that going in with guns blazing should be ABSOLUTELY the last resort, after all other avenues have been exhausted. North Korea has a HUGE army, and any invasion of that country would be extremely costly, even given the assumption that they only had the nuke that they tested, which is unlikely.

This situation is going to be extremely difficult to resolve. I agree that sanctions will probably not work, but I think that severe pressure from China might.

Nancy Allen`` 10-10-2006 04:53 AM

I say North Korea pissing off the world: successful. Kim Jong's a madman, given how unstable the guy is there's the fear he'd let loose a nuke in retalliation to international scorn. Yeah, I know I sound like a McCarthy supporter in the 50's but I gotta say I'm scared of where this could lead to.

Dagobahn Eagle 10-10-2006 11:41 AM

No, by all means, I agree. Kim Jong-Il totally disregards human rights and life-worth. His own country's a testament of that fact. Given how badly he treats his own citizens, I doubt that he'll think twice before bombing his brothers in the South, or foreigners in China, Japan, Taiwan, or the US.

Char Ell 10-10-2006 12:00 PM

Unless all the major countries like Russia, China, Japan, S. Korea, and the U.S.A. are seriously misinformed and overreacting then all indications are that N. Korea did set off an underground nuclear bomb.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dagobahn Eagle
Diplomacy's worked many times in the past, still work, and will always work.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who saw red flags after reading this statement. :) Of course, Dagobahn Eagle may not be indicating that diplomacy will always resolve conflicts.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Qliveur

I thought of the same thing. :)

I too do not believe that the situation with N. Korea can be blamed entirely on Bill Clinton. While Clinton's decisions during his tenure as U.S. president may have contributed to the problem I see George W. Bush's decision to preemptively invade Iraq as a major contributor, giving Kim Jong-Il an excuse (not that he really needed one) to continue development of nuclear weapons.

My concern with countries like N. Korea and Iran obtaining nuclear weapons is how they will use them. I don't trust these countries to use them for deterrent purposes only. I wonder if N. Korea would use nuclear weapons as a shield to allow them to invade S. Korea, basically saying to the rest of the world, "Stay out of this or we'll use our nukes!" I think of Iran in the same way. If Iran had nukes would they then use them as a shield that would allow them to attack Israel?

Dagobahn Eagle 10-10-2006 02:20 PM

Quote:

I'm glad I'm not the only one who saw red flags after reading this statement. Of course, Dagobahn Eagle may not be indicating that diplomacy will always resolve conflicts.
I realize that was terribly badly phrased.

I did not mean that diplomacy works 100% of the time. I meant that it's always worked part of the time, when done properly and with reason. The appeasement is a textbook example of diplomacy that should not have been conducted.

toms 10-10-2006 05:05 PM

So much for "5 years". Stupid analysts.

I think Emperor Devon will be safe for a while yet, i doubt they have the missiles to get that far. ;) Maybe japan, who they don't like at all. *thinks about where he is moving to in two weeks* :scare5:

I'm not doing the whole "blame bush for everything" thing, but I don't think the "axis of evil" comments and invasion or iraq helped. It basically said to n.korea and iran "you are on our list, we'll get you next. unless you have nukes.".

I guess they'd have developed them anyway.. but they might not have been in such a rush.. which would have given china time to put the brakes in NK. Basically China is the only one with any influence, but they have quite a lot.. so they should be able to control them.

dtriniman 10-10-2006 06:57 PM

Quote:

we'll get you next. unless you have nukes
which is why I'm glad he has it IF he really has it. I dare Bush to go in guns blazing. Woooweeeee!!! Yeeehawwww!!! You don't mess with Texas. He better stfu and plead the the U.N. (who he never seemed to care much for in the past) like a good l'il doggie. Everytime something like this comes up I'll keep repeating myself, hell I think I'll find the original text i wrote and just paste it in everytime this comes up. Since I can't find it right now I'll see how best I can get it: America is in NO place to say who should or should't have WMDs since it is the ONLY country in history to use them and it's just damn common sense. OK you have, you've used some already, so if I get you'll think twice before using what you have left on me because you know there is a POSSIBILITY you'll get your @$$ nuked too.

Char Ell 10-10-2006 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toms
I guess they'd have developed them anyway.. but they might not have been in such a rush.. which would have given china time to put the brakes in NK.

I agree with this statement. I feel that halting the proliferation of nuclear weapons is an impossible task. Delaying proliferation is all we can really do.

So are you moving to Japan, toms?
Quote:

Originally Posted by dtriniman
America is in NO place to say who should or should't have WMDs since it is the ONLY country in history to use them and it's just damn common sense.

Not sure I agree with this statement. I don't think America is justified in attacking a country just because they have a nuclear weapons development program. However I think it's absolutely necessary that America, in the interests of self-preservation, use all non-violent means at its disposal (diplomacy, economic incentives, and even economic sanctions) to prevent other countries from developing nuclear weapons. But if all those efforts fail then the U.S. and the rest of the world will have to deal with the reality of having yet another nuclear power in the world. I think it's only a question of will it be the Second Cold War or World War III? :indif:

Emperor Devon 10-10-2006 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toms
I think Emperor Devon will be safe for a while yet, i doubt they have the missiles to get that far. ;)

They don't now, and I hope they don't ever. :)

generalvaklu321 10-10-2006 10:27 PM

I think we should take the threat seriously, but I am still not worried too much personally. Because as of right now, we are not even sure if they tested a nuclear weapon or just a mass of conventional weapons. Also, if it was a nuke, North Korea has 1 less nuke :p And even if they can make nuclear weapons, they only have enough material to make around 5 or 6.

And, remember the Patriot Missle Defense System? We could be able to shoot the weapon out of the sky.

Windu Chi 10-11-2006 05:07 AM

It seem today that the so called leaders of this world are cowards.
The UN and the US is still debating on what to do to Kim Jong Yil and his criminal regime for defying the world.
It seem like this society of the world today has gotten soft since WW II, people today keep believing today that diplomatic solutions is going to work with every dictator.
This doesn't not seem to be the case with North Korea, sanctions aren't going to work with that nut Kim Jong Yil.
The UN and the US militaries better take that ******* out now, or we all in the world will be experiencing WW III in the near future.
If they let Kim Jon Yil get away with this than Iran will have a green light for go to make their nukes.
I will assume everybody knows what that will entails; al-Qaida with the big bomb.
It is time for the second Korean War or a possible third world war.
Make your choice!

To maintain peace on this planet blood is going have to be spill or all our blood is going to get spilled.
I already heard that if sanctions are inacted, North Korea is going to consider it an act of war.
So it looks like Korean War II is inevitable if the world punish that f**ker, Kim Jong.

Nancy Allen`` 10-11-2006 05:37 AM

Of course Bush chose to act that way three years ago in Iraq and he was demonised more than Hitler ever was. Act and you're branded as a monster, don't act and you're a coward. How do you win?

Windu Chi 10-11-2006 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
Of course Bush chose to act that way three years ago in Iraq and he was demonised more than Hitler ever was. Act and you're branded as a monster, don't act and you're a coward. How do you win?

Yeah, but Iraq was no major threat like North Korea is now, a severe threat at that.
If no one don't punish Kim Jong then their is going to be major hell to pay, for their lack vigilance.

Nancy Allen`` 10-11-2006 06:09 AM

True. There's a time to act like a Jedi and a time to be decisive, and when the time comes you must act decisive. Of course people will criticise no matter what happens.

Ray Jones 10-11-2006 06:15 AM

There's no bomb. :dozey: Otherwise he wouldn't make it this big news and all. If, then he'd just tested it, and everybody would have noticed it without him making a big deal out of it. And just because someone has "nuclear technology" doesn't mean he has "nuclear weapon technology".

Windu Chi 10-11-2006 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
True. There's a time to act like a Jedi and a time to be decisive, and when the time comes you must act decisive. Of course people will criticise no matter what happens.

It's definitely time to act like the Jedi exile, during the Mandalorian War.

Windu Chi 10-11-2006 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray Jones
There's no bomb. :dozey: Otherwise he wouldn't make it this big news and all. If, then he'd just tested it, and everybody would have noticed it without him making a big deal out of it. And just because someone has "nuclear technology" doesn't mean he has "nuclear weapon technology".

Keep believing that, when you wake up to a bright flash some time in near the future then you will see the truth.
Even if they don't even have the bomb, as you believe as a trick it will give Iran the green light to try their chances at the task.
They are more likely to succeed at developing the bomb.
Iran nuke~al-Qaida nuke

Q 10-11-2006 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
Of course Bush chose to act that way three years ago in Iraq and he was demonised more than Hitler ever was. Act and you're branded as a monster, don't act and you're a coward. How do you win?

Good question. I was behind Bush when he ordered the invasion of Iraq because I was led to believe that Iraq possessed WMD's. When this turned out not to be the case, I began to question the validity of the invasion, as many others have. More concrete proof was needed to justify all the death and destruction. At least NK has provided the proof.

I do believe that this situation has a very good chance of being solved peacefully. This is THE opportunity for China to shine, to get the international prestige and recognition as a true superpower that it craves. If they can get NK to back down, they're going to be international heroes, and everyone will forget about their flagrant human rights violations, cutthroat trade policies that benefit from near-slave labor and their reckless disregard for the environment. They'd be fools to let such an opportunity pass them by, and they are anything but fools. I forsee a HUGE effort by China to get this crisis resolved with little or no help from the international community.

Windu Chi 10-11-2006 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qliveur
Good question. I was behind Bush when he ordered the invasion of Iraq because I was led to believe that Iraq possessed WMD's. When this turned out not to be the case, I began to question the validity of the invasion, as many others have. More concrete proof was needed to justify all the death and destruction. At least NK has provided the proof.

I do believe that this situation has a very good chance of being solved peacefully. This is THE opportunity for China to shine, to get the international prestige and recognition as a true superpower that it craves. If they can get NK to back down, they're going to be international heroes, and everyone will forget about their flagrant human rights violations, cutthroat trade policies that benefit from near-slave labor and their reckless disregard for the environment. They'd be fools to let such an opportunity pass them by, and they are anything but fools. I forsee a HUGE effort by China to get this crisis resolved with little or no help from the international community.

I don't trust China, I don't believe they will do a damn thing.

Q 10-11-2006 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by windu6
I don't trust China, I don't believe they will do a damn thing.

I don't trust them either, and I don't pretend to know what they think. I only know how I would view and deal with this situation if I were in their position. I see this as a golden opportunity for political advancement, and I can't help but think that they see the same thing. It's right in front of them. Almost as if it were made to order...

Ray Jones 10-11-2006 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by windu6
Keep believing that, when you wake up to a bright flash some time in near the future then you will see the truth.

:p Life ends, one way or another. And truth, well.. I grew up in the GDR during cold war, I know exactly how communism works, and I heard that **** every day. Screw that. I don't fear these kind of things.

See, if they going to test a bomb for the first time, why should they tell everybody? They wouldn't even know it's gonna work, and even if, it's still only one test bomb. So it is pretty much unlikely they build a hundred of them, because they don't know if they gonna work. Next thing is, a test bomb is far from being combat ready. So they have nothing, and at maximum the test was really an a-bomb, which obviously didn't work.

All that given, they would endanger the whole project to being raped down by the rest of the world's nations by stupidly bragging about it.

Quote:

Even if they don't even have the bomb, as you believe as a trick it will give Iran the green light to try their chances at the task.
They are more likely to succeed at developing the bomb.
Iran nuke~al-Qaida nuke
If the want to, they will, regardless if North Korea is "succeding" or not. Al Quaida is "cool" enough to go for something like 09/11, why should they give a damn about a non islamic Korea?

Nancy Allen`` 10-11-2006 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by windu6
It's definitely time to act like the Jedi exile, during the Mandalorian War.

Now that I'd like to see. Or would I? Certainly it would be my fantasy for have a hero like the Exile resolve the situation. The question is whether or not someone like the Exile would quality as being the right woman for the task.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qliveur
Good question. I was behind Bush when he ordered the invasion of Iraq because I was led to believe that Iraq possessed WMD's. When this turned out not to be the case, I began to question the validity of the invasion, as many others have. More concrete proof was needed to justify all the death and destruction. At least NK has provided the proof.

The two biggest problems with Iraq was the way the war was fought and the controversy surrounding it. Bush may like the tanks and planes but that's not the way war is fought anymore. The insurgents proved this when they kicked the Coalition's ass. And the controversy ranges from defying the UN to those Abu Gharib butchers to doubts and hypocracy over weapons of mass destruction.

Windu Chi 10-11-2006 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray Jones
If the want to, they will, regardless if North Korea is "succeding" or not. Al Quaida is "cool" enough to go for something like 09/11, why should they give a damn about a non islamic Korea?

I was saying that if UN and the US does nothing then Iran will think it is ok to go with their program, because the world won't do nothing if they do.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray Jones
:p Life ends, one way or another. And truth, well.. I grew up in the GDR during cold war, I know exactly how communism works, and I heard that **** every day. Screw that. I don't fear these kind of things.

I see you don't give a damn if World War 3 happen, because of the cry wolf scenario in your past.

Windu Chi 10-11-2006 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
Now that I'd like to see. Or would I? Certainly it would be my fantasy for have a hero like the Exile resolve the situation. The question is whether or not someone like the Exile would quality as being the right woman for the task.

There seem to be no one on this planet like the Exile, the possible ones are already dead or dying now.
The leaders are cowards and the heros are dead and dying.

Ray Jones 10-11-2006 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by windu6
I was saying that if UN and the US does nothing then Iran will think it is ok to go with their program, because the world won't do nothing if they do.

And I say they don't care what the UN says, and even less about what the US says. So they will go on with their program, because if they'd listen to the UN they wouldn't have started a nuclear program in the first place.

Quote:

I see you don't give a damn if World War 3 happen, because of the cry wolf scenario in your past.
No. Firstly I just don't see a WWIII in the "nazi vs the others" style and secondly, and I don't see a nuclear war, because if anyone (korea if you want) dares to drop a nuke over let's say somewhere in europe, I'm pretty sure at least one is flying back to them, we know that and they know that.

Windu Chi 10-11-2006 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray Jones
And I say they don't care what the UN says, and even less about what the US says. So they will go on with their program, because if they'd listen to the UN they wouldn't have started a nuclear program in the first place.

No. Firstly I just don't see a WWIII in the "nazi vs the others" style and secondly, and I don't see a nuclear war, because if anyone (korea if you want) dares to drop a nuke over let's say somewhere in europe, I'm pretty sure at least one is flying back to them, we know that and they know that.

Ok! I understand what you mean.

swphreak 10-11-2006 07:42 AM

Hmm... seeing as how N.K. test missiles got nowhere near the U.S., I'm not that worried yet. Plus, I'd like to think NORAD would be able to detect an ICBM and could shoot it down...

As for whether or not N.K. is telling the truth, I'd like to see some sort of evidence before I believe anything N.K. says.

Ray Jones 10-11-2006 07:54 AM

You do know that there's a whole wide world surrounding the U.S., and some places are located a bit nearer towards Korea, eh, Phreakey-ma--öööhm--Mister P., sir?

Q 10-11-2006 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StarWarsPhreak
Plus, I'd like to think NORAD would be able to detect an ICBM and could shoot it down...

Unfortunately, as far as I know, neither the US nor anyone else currently possesses a weapon system that is capable of reliably intercepting and destroying an ICBM once it's launched. The US has been working on it for >20 years now, and we may see something like that in the near future, but right now we're pretty much screwed.


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