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-   -   Turning to dark side: Could have been handled better (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=172628)

No Body 11-14-2006 08:30 AM

Turning to dark side: Could have been handled better
 
I guess this should include a spoiler warning for those who haven't played JK yet.

Ok, you kill cvilians and droids and you end up turning to the dark side. That part I get, but the one thing that never made sense to me was why Kyle would kill Jan. Turning to the dark side doesn't make one go beserk and slaughter everyone around them without provocation, it makes them give in to hate. Kyle has no reason to hate Jan. Yes, he might eventually become evil enough that he would lose his temper and kill her, but at that point in the story, she's still his loyal friend.

I suppose it was included for shock value and to show how evil he's become but to me it just came off as being cheap.

Ben_Walker 12-06-2006 04:52 PM

It didn't seem that logical to me. The way I figured it, the Dark Side was a gradual thing, so maybe if Kyle's lines in the gamer were more aggressive as he turned and maybe even snapping at Jan for something.

spoiler:
It might've been better if Kyle killed Jan after Jerec, maybe he could've tried to stop him from stealing the valley's power.

DarthMuffin 12-06-2006 06:56 PM

While I also agree, I think we must take into consideration that the game came out a long time ago.

Back then, the prequels weren't released. We only knew about 2 Siths - Vader and Palpatine. Palpatine was basically a completely corrupted individual who cared about nothing else than power. Vader had more depth, but much of his backstory was unknown at that point. Also, there weren't many EU books/things to draw from.

So I think that it's a pretty good indication of how the Dark Side was conceived at that point. The designers wanted a powerful scene to show Kyle's fall, and I guess that the best way they found was to make Kyle kill his friend.

Ben_Walker 12-06-2006 07:44 PM

Very good point Darth, and as far as I know that was the first lightsaber wielding game that didn't play as Luke Skywalker and had the choice of going dark.

No Body 12-07-2006 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth54
While I also agree, I think we must take into consideration that the game came out a long time ago.

Back then, the prequels weren't released. We only knew about 2 Siths - Vader and Palpatine. Palpatine was basically a completely corrupted individual who cared about nothing else than power. Vader had more depth, but much of his backstory was unknown at that point. Also, there weren't many EU books/things to draw from.

True, however look at the way Vader was portrayed in the first three films. Yes, he was evil and he killed people, but only when they failed or angered him. It's not as if he went around killing people at random. In the end, Vader, who has been evil for many years, couldn't bring himself to kill his own son. Even Palpatine didn't salughter people for no reason.

It was always my impression that "turning to the dark side" meant that one would no longer be bothered by morality and would do anything required to accomplish what they wanted, whether that was killing someone, or destroying an entire planet, not that they went bezerk.

If I were in Kyle's shoes, being confonted by the people who killed my father, I know who I'd want to make sushi out of.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth54
So I think that it's a pretty good indication of how the Dark Side was conceived at that point. The designers wanted a powerful scene to show Kyle's fall, and I guess that the best way they found was to make Kyle kill his friend.

Here's how I think they should have handled it;

The game keeps track of how many civilians you kill to judge if you're going to end up light or dark. After a few missions, when the game registers that you're leaning toward the dark side, there should be some slightly different FMVs between Kyle and Jan. In the first one, she could say something like "A lot of innocent people got killed" and he could reply "I did my best to protect them, but I can't save everyone." In the next one, she could say "You're still allowing a lot of innocent people to be killed and it bothers me that you're using so many dark powers" to which he'd reply "It has to be done. If I don't stop Jerec, a lot more people are going to die!" Then in the last one before the level where he turns dark, they could get in an argument about it with Jan telling him that she's done working with him, him calling her a traitor and saying he no longer needs her help. When confronted by Jerec and the others, Jerec could remind him that Jan abandoned him, leading him to kill her.

That would have been more believable.

Ben_Walker 12-07-2006 02:24 AM

Thats a good point too.

But I think this game was a learning curve of sort for LA, for future Jedi games with a DS alternate ending. So not making a major focus on the theatrical fall of Kyle Katarn is acceptible. Also I imagine the game was on a tight time line, as I think they pushed back the releash date. So the developers would concentrate on getting the game out.

DarthMuffin 12-07-2006 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben_Walker
Thats a good point too.

But I think this game was a learning curve of sort for LA, for future Jedi games with a DS alternate ending.

Well, I don't think they learned that much judging from how it was handled in JA. :p A bit better (the "target" wasn't clean), but basically the same thing.

DS is still misunderstood by game developpers as a whole. Even in the KotORs, it's basically about playing the elementary school bully (gimme the candy (credits) or I hit (kill) you!!!). Still, K1 gave your character a damn good reason to turn DS, and K2 had a very neat scene (when you "break" an NPC to your service).

I do think JK is decent though. Let's not forget that it's a FPS before anything else.

Ben_Walker 12-08-2006 12:57 AM

Least there was some foreshadowing before Jaden turned... the whole "seething anger" thing from Kyle.

spoiler:
But Rosh's line at the academy about being held back was far too Anakin like


THough when I think about it, I think JA was a step back. Jaden yelling most lines when on the Dark Side encouraged me to stay light... even if I had to spare Rosh.

DarthMuffin 12-10-2006 07:52 PM

I also think that JA was a step back (on many levels). Still, it was decent to be able to choose light or dark at some point (similar to JK1). But like I said, we know so much more about the dark side now that I think they should have handled it better.

Ben_Walker 12-11-2006 03:48 AM

Well, I think JA was one of those games, following a major success which LA push out for more money.

Examples, MOTS after JK1 and The Sith Lords after Knights Of The Old Republic.

DarthMuffin 12-13-2006 07:03 PM

Don't mess with MotS :evil1:

But yeah, they were really milking the cow with JA. TSL too. Battlefront 2 too. :p

Pretty much every sequel ("gamename" 2) that uses the same engine than the last one with next to no modifications is a rip-off.

rozo100 12-21-2006 07:28 AM

yeah jan and kyle were like best friends, i mean COME ON kyle get a grip!
JA was crap compared to DF2, it was all hack and slash no puzzles or puzzles that i could beat in like 10 seconds, df2 took me like 2-3 weeks to beat while ja only took 2-4 DAYS!

DarthMuffin 12-21-2006 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rozo100
yeah jan and kyle were like best friends, i mean COME ON kyle get a grip!
JA was crap compared to DF2, it was all hack and slash no puzzles or puzzles that i could beat in like 10 seconds, df2 took me like 2-3 weeks to beat while ja only took 2-4 DAYS!

I heard about this Jedi who killed his pregnant wife :p I think that's even worse than killing your best friend :)

But yeah, JA was simpler (and more stupid) than the others. Aimed at the masses, like most newer game.

Ben_Walker 12-23-2006 07:12 PM

You've got a point there, now maybe Kyle could have killed Jan at the end of the game, with him trying to take the valley's power with Jerec's death. Might have been better, but thats me rambling.

I think JAs first mistake was starting off with a lightsaber, seems more like something you have to earn. Preferibly by shooting down alot of stormies, freeing prisoners and blowing away Imperial Walkers...

Darnaltung 03-01-2007 08:45 PM

Quote:

You've got a point there, now maybe Kyle could have killed Jan at the end of the game, with him trying to take the valley's power with Jerec's death. Might have been better, but thats me rambling.
I totally agree with you.

Besides, there's another thing that the game could've handled better.
If Kyle took the Light Side and escaped from the falling airship, we see him surrounded by three of the Dark Jedi (Boc, Sariss and Yun) in a FMV secuence, and eventually Kyle fights Sariss. It was a cool part, and I'm OK with it.
The problem is when Kyle takes the Dark Side; we see him once again escaping from the falling airship in the Moldy Crow, but then he fights Yun (out of nowhere) with the (lame) excuse of him "wanting revenge" in exactly the same place where Kyle fights Sariss. Seems as if the programmers were out of time, and in a rush they ended assembling the Dark Side path very similar to the Light Side path...

Although this bothered me a bit, nevertheless Jedi Knight is one of my favorite games of all time. It's just what other users said: It was one of the first games in the Star Wars universe to handle a completely new storyline, and the very first to feature a fully-functional lightsaber. We have to give the game credit for creating a great atmosphere to enjoy...

JKLE_Cougar 03-02-2007 11:50 AM

reason why he fights him there is because battle ground jedi is such a bad*** map :p

PoiuyWired 03-02-2007 12:20 PM

Well, I always think that JA exist as a multiplayer gamefirst, and a single player game second. The multiplayer is nice, but the mission-like single player and the somewhat lack of storyline interaction kinda sucks. I mean, some missions are just nothing more than annoyance.

And oh, things like the boba scenerio seems to be deliberate, yes seeing boba is fun, but getting him to show up for little reason is kinda *cough*


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