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-   -   Patch Balance Thread at Petro (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=172753)

Naso 11-18-2006 05:08 PM

Patch Balance Thread at Petro
 
http://www.petroglyphgames.com/forum...showtopic=1112

It sounds like the starvipers at least are going to be fixed, though that only comes out from the second dev post. Don't see anything about mass-driver damage though, just decreasing accuracy vs fighters. I posted a link to the cap-ship discussion here, since the devs do come post here, but that's probably the best place to give feedback.

The Source 11-18-2006 05:57 PM

Wow. That iis one large list. They should have teken care of this before they released the game. Grrr...

wedge2211 11-18-2006 07:26 PM

TIE Phantoms can go 80 seconds under cloak with 10 second cooldowns? Makes them a whole lot more interesting...

Funny how they've made a lot of balance changes to the old EaW units, like A-Wings and Corellian Corvettes. You'd think those would be all set by now.

On the whole, looks like a pretty good list, and I'm glad to see it.

Valter 11-18-2006 08:05 PM

I just hope Petro will fix the numerous bugs as well...

lukeiamyourdad 11-18-2006 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wedge2211
Funny how they've made a lot of balance changes to the old EaW units, like A-Wings and Corellian Corvettes. You'd think those would be all set by now.


Not really. When you introduce new units and new factions, balance can need to be reviewed totally.

TearsOfIsha 11-19-2006 04:16 AM

These sound like a good list of changes. The A-Wing in particular should be much more worthy - it's sounds more like the dogfighting nightmare that it's supposed to be.

The business about Mass Driver losing accuracy against fighters is a godsend. Excellent. The change to the MC30 is understandable as well. Actually, every consortium change is pretty good, except the Vengenace frigate. I think I speak for most people here when I say that it didn't need to be more powerful.

But..... Rebel orbital bombardment. Hmmm. An extra 3 seconds might be all I need..... yes.... sounds good.

Overall, all of this sounds good. Well done Petro, can't wait for it ;)

mrsparkle 11-19-2006 10:22 PM

Yes, I might actually want to play space skirmish battles again. And considering that space skirmish battles are pretty much all I play...

Rust_Lord 11-19-2006 10:55 PM

Ive posted my whinge in the FOC patch thread. I see more improvements to the ZC than nerfs! Severely disappointing.

Naso 11-20-2006 09:20 PM

Yeah, I really wish they'd take down the vengeance frigate, though the starviper'll be balanced it looks like. At least they're making the ISD a bit stronger now! :)

Rust_Lord 11-20-2006 09:46 PM

Yes the changes in red are even more recent. The ISD HPs increase is minimal but better than nothing. The Ion cannon changes will be good. Its a surprise to see the Keldabe toned down and the reb troops HPs reduced. I think that is a good idea. and surprise suprise the ZC stations are getting nerfed though not substantially.

YertyL 11-21-2006 10:04 AM

Wow, the recent changes IMO really make the patch much better. I wasn't exactly thrilled before (change seismic charge from instakill to insta-instakill, buff vengeance frigates wtf?), but a pretty heavy buff for SD health and damage, the juggernaught and a nerf to ZC space station sounds good to me.
They'll still IMO need to nerf a few things, e.g. the insanely good special ability of the Keldable or the damage of the crusader to cap ships.

Rust_Lord 11-21-2006 08:07 PM

Yes I fiddled with the XMLs last night according to what Petro intend to do and tested out some stuff. Since the ISDs ion fire rate has been doubled they are a bit nastier and finally have more firepower than the Mon Calamari cruiser. Although they gain only a little over 200 extra HPs (3225 total up from 2980) they are now finally tougher than the Mon Calamari (3010). Its not huge but at least its what most of us wanted and the price wasnt increased. The rear TLs on the ISD fire at a slower rate (5) than its front TLs and the TLs on the MC (all 7) which should be addressed. That would make the ISD spot on.

Crusaders are more annoying even if their health has been slashed however they have been altered to reflect what petro had in mind for them in the first place; they can now shoot down a salvo of missiles without one sneaking through. I dont mind this change at all.

Interceptor IV is much better now though I spotted in the XML when changing it that it actually has the armour of an assault frigate whereas the two comparable reb and imp craft only have light frigate armour so when Petro says ZC stuff is underarmoured it is not always true. At least now you can catch them and they can't out run torpedoes.

Engaging Keldabes and ZC stations is not as suicidal anymore. My bombers actually made it to the station to do a torp run, YAY! With such a nerf to the Keldabes ions and no price change the shield leech ability wont be touched I expect.

Some subtle and some drastic changes = we are definately getting somewhere. Dumbfounded by the improvement to the Vengeance though. I can play so cheesy with them already.

Shadow_015 11-30-2006 09:02 PM

Rebel MCs
 
I have to reiterate this as I did on other threads....

Since the Imperial Star Destroyer is now stronger than a Mon Calamari Cruiser, I think it's only fair that MC's now get Hangar bays with fighters...even if its a minimal amount of fighters...

Also, the Home One needs to be SERIOUSLY IMPROVED!!! It needs more weapons (at minimum one more) and its existing weapons need to be made stronger. At the moment its nowhere near the behemoth it was in the movies, since it was stronger than other MCs and the largest of those around at the time...

The Assault Frigate and the Nebulon-B Frigate could also use a bit of a boost,as there are no MC40s and since there are so many more competitors in their category and also stronger ships which the Rebels do not have

Valter 12-01-2006 12:15 AM

I strongly disagree, there should be NO changes to the Mon Cal's! They work just fine, besides they aren't supposed to be super-strong. They are outfitted luxury cruisers, not battleships...

The rebel strategy is to outmaneuver the enemy, not overpower the enemy (overpowering is the imperial philosophy).

I have played as the Rebels in FOC and they work perfectly...if you know how to use them effectively.

YertyL 12-01-2006 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow_015
I have to reiterate this as I did on other threads....

Since the Imperial Star Destroyer is now stronger than a Mon Calamari Cruiser, I think it's only fair that MC's now get Hangar bays with fighters...even if its a minimal amount of fighters...

Also, the Home One needs to be SERIOUSLY IMPROVED!!! It needs more weapons (at minimum one more) and its existing weapons need to be made stronger. At the moment its nowhere near the behemoth it was in the movies, since it was stronger than other MCs and the largest of those around at the time...

The Assault Frigate and the Nebulon-B Frigate could also use a bit of a boost,as there are no MC40s and since there are so many more competitors in their category and also stronger ships which the Rebels do not have

OK, I think you've overlooked a little detail: SDs cost about twice as much as MCs (or at least much more) - and the Home One owns any regular SD or Mon Cal 1on1 and is larger than the other MCs or SDs.
And why the heck should assault frigates and Neb-Bs be improved? They already own their Imperial counterparts - if at all I'd suggest a boost for the Acclamator, not for the Neb B.

Shadow_015 12-01-2006 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valter
I strongly disagree, there should be NO changes to the Mon Cal's! They work just fine, besides they aren't supposed to be super-strong. They are outfitted luxury cruisers, not battleships...

The rebel strategy is to outmaneuver the enemy, not overpower the enemy (overpowering is the imperial philosophy).

I have played as the Rebels in FOC and they work perfectly...if you know how to use them effectively.


I think you're overlooking game balance. In the original FoC the Imps strategy was to have unlimited fighters (well basically) while the Rebels have stronger shields - effectively making a MonCal stronger. If the SD gets stronger than the MonCal then the MonCal has no tactical advantages over the SD anymore making the game unbalanced.

And giving the stronger Rebel fighters argument isn't valid anymore because the Imps now have TIE Defenders, TIE Interceptors and TIE Phantoms. That limits the Rebels immensely in terms of tactical advantages.

Shadow_015 12-01-2006 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valter
I strongly disagree, there should be NO changes to the Mon Cal's! They work just fine, besides they aren't supposed to be super-strong. They are outfitted luxury cruisers, not battleships...

The rebel strategy is to outmaneuver the enemy, not overpower the enemy (overpowering is the imperial philosophy).

I have played as the Rebels in FOC and they work perfectly...if you know how to use them effectively.


I think you're overlooking game balance. In the original FoC the Imps strategy was to have unlimited fighters (well basically) while the Rebels have stronger shields - effectively making a MonCal stronger. If the SD gets stronger than the MonCal then the MonCal has no tactical advantages over the SD anymore making the game unbalanced.

And giving the stronger Rebel fighters argument isn't valid anymore because the Imps now have TIE Defenders, TIE Interceptors and TIE Phantoms. That limits the Rebels immensely in terms of tactical advantages.

And yes I do know how to use Rebels thank you very much! I can win with them in FoC despite the disadvantages, but the fact that they are so nerfed in this doesn't make it very much fun to use them anymore.

And Valter, your argument about them being Luxury cruisers is valid in the fact that they should be weaker than ISD's according to canon, but not valid towards whether they have a hangar or not. Either way I think MCs should receive a hangar for game balance and for canon.

Shadow_015 12-01-2006 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YertyL
OK, I think you've overlooked a little detail: SDs cost about twice as much as MCs (or at least much more) - and the Home One owns any regular SD or Mon Cal 1on1 and is larger than the other MCs or SDs.
And why the heck should assault frigates and Neb-Bs be improved? They already own their Imperial counterparts - if at all I'd suggest a boost for the Acclamator, not for the Neb B.

The reason the Frigates should be improved is because the Rebels only got two units. Granted they are both supposed to be 'Capital Ship Killers'. However, since there's also the Vengeance, Aggressor, Kedalbe, SSD and Eclipse, I think it would at least be fair if Rebel units got a boost to hold out a bit longer against all these stronger enemies. Maybe not a boost vs. Imperial ships, but definitely Consortium ships.

Even though the MC Frigate and B-Wing are there, they are still quite expensive. At 4000 credits you might as well build a MonCal and for the B-Wing...700 for only 3 of em considering the fact they get shredded by StarVipers is also not worth it.

Speaking of MonCals, I'd was thinkin of about 2 squadrons accompanying the Hangar. That way it's significantly less than the ISD but enough to keep the MonCal in the game.

So since Rebels obviously can't receive new units during a patch, I figure its only fair to tweak them a little bit.

The Acclamator doesn't necessarily need tweaking but I argue the Home One does (not necessarily in size, but I mean in weapons) because out of the four main heroes (Zann, Ackbar, Thrawn, Piett) it has no offensive weapon, only 'direct all fire' and 'boost shields' and while boost shields comes in handy, direct all fire isn't always useful. It therefore sometimes lacks the firepower to withstand a skirmish for a long time in comparison to the others, and I think maybe a proton torpedo launcher would do the trick.

Actually, even a Hangar would do it; with 1 X-Wing Squadron and 1 Y-Wing squadron (or even A-Wings or B-Wings since Ackbar created B-Wings) - it would definitely make the Home One more competitive. Plus, it would also make the 'direct all fire' option useful for Home One if its just by itself in a skirmish.

ImpElite 12-01-2006 09:19 AM

wow, triple post.

Shadow_015 12-01-2006 09:38 AM

yeah, sorry about that. Duno why it posted one double. Was only meant to be two to reply to each different post

ImpElite 12-01-2006 01:51 PM

ahhh, okay.

SAGEKING-PG 12-01-2006 07:09 PM

They are in the final phases of testing the patch guys :) There is quite a list of fixes across the board which I hope to share with you guys soon. Thanks for your patience. Expect an update early next week.

ImpElite 12-01-2006 09:08 PM

Sweet, thanks for the reply, SAGEKING-PG. Can't wait for the new map editor!

Valter 12-02-2006 02:27 AM

Quote:

I think you're overlooking game balance. In the original FoC the Imps strategy was to have unlimited fighters (well basically) while the Rebels have stronger shields - effectively making a MonCal stronger. If the SD gets stronger than the MonCal then the MonCal has no tactical advantages over the SD anymore making the game unbalanced.
I'll tell you again, the rebel strategy in FOC is to outmaneuver the enemy, not overpower the enemy. Besides, the Mon Cal will always defeat a Imperial Star Destroyer in combat because of the "boost shields" ability.

Quote:

And giving the stronger Rebel fighters argument isn't valid anymore because the Imps now have TIE Defenders, TIE Interceptors and TIE Phantoms. That limits the Rebels immensely in terms of tactical advantages.
The rebels still have some advantages in the fighter department; The B-wings can lock s-foils, rendering the fighter virtually untouchable by laser fire and increasing the Incidence of bombing runs, A-wings are better than TIE Interceptors thanks to the "lure" ability and X-wings are faster than any TIE fighter (when using s-foils).

Quote:

And yes I do know how to use Rebels thank you very much! I can win with them in FoC despite the disadvantages, but the fact that they are so nerfed in this doesn't make it very much fun to use them anymore.
I agree with you here but I don't think giving Mon Cal's a hangar bay is the solution. Now THAT would cause balance problems like mass spamming X-wings and Y-wings.

Quote:

And Valter, your argument about them being Luxury cruisers is valid in the fact that they should be weaker than ISD's according to canon, but not valid towards whether they have a hangar or not. Either way I think MCs should receive a hangar for game balance and for canon.
What will giving the Mon Cal's a hangar bay solve? Tell me Specifically ...

TearsOfIsha 12-02-2006 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAGEKING-PG
They are in the final phases of testing the patch guys :) There is quite a list of fixes across the board which I hope to share with you guys soon. Thanks for your patience. Expect an update early next week.

No offence Sageking, but Delphi told us this last week.

ImpElite 12-02-2006 09:28 AM

plus this is a GAME NOT CANON, things have to be balanced otherwise the Empire and maybe the Consortium would kick everyone's butt no sweat. :vsd: :vsd: :vsd: :vsd: :vsd:

TearsOfIsha 12-02-2006 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valter
I strongly disagree, there should be NO changes to the Mon Cal's! They work just fine, besides they aren't supposed to be super-strong. They are outfitted luxury cruisers, not battleships...

I'm sick of hearing this argument. Yes, it works great for canon, but it doesn't help the game at all. The Mon Cal is alright against an ISD but they are absolutely pathetic against Keldabes. I can't work out whether the Keldabe is the most unbalanced pile of crap that I've ever had the misfortune of playing against (that shield leech ability alone is basically a cheat) or whther the Mon Cal has been abandoned by Petro. But bleating on about how the Mon Cal should be weaker than the ISD is totally pointless without coming up with the agrument that Rebel Fighters should 0wn Imperial counterparts. You can't have everything - that's why the ZC is basically seen as mistake by a lot of the peopl on this board, they don't have anything approaching balance.

Quote:

The rebel strategy is to outmaneuver the enemy, not overpower the enemy (overpowering is the imperial philosophy).
Great. Now all the rebels need is the ability to do so. But they don't. Hence the f**king huge balance problems.

Quote:

I have played as the Rebels in FOC and they work perfectly...if you know how to use them effectively.
Why is it when anyone asks for something to be upgraded the argument degenrates into some genius saying "you just don't know how to use them blah blah blah". Tell me Valter, is having a Mon Cal cruiser destroyed before it gets more than one volley off by a keldabe, 'working perfectly'?

No it isn't. If that was supposed to happen the Mon Cal cruisers would have a price of 100 and a pop. of 1.

Shadow_015 12-02-2006 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TearsOfIsha
I'm sick of hearing this argument. Yes, it works great for canon, but it doesn't help the game at all. The Mon Cal is alright against an ISD but they are absolutely pathetic against Keldabes. I can't work out whether the Keldabe is the most unbalanced pile of crap that I've ever had the misfortune of playing against (that shield leech ability alone is basically a cheat) or whther the Mon Cal has been abandoned by Petro. But bleating on about how the Mon Cal should be weaker than the ISD is totally pointless without coming up with the agrument that Rebel Fighters should 0wn Imperial counterparts. You can't have everything - that's why the ZC is basically seen as mistake by a lot of the peopl on this board, they don't have anything approaching balance.



Great. Now all the rebels need is the ability to do so. But they don't. Hence the f**king huge balance problems.



Why is it when anyone asks for something to be upgraded the argument degenrates into some genius saying "you just don't know how to use them blah blah blah". Tell me Valter, is having a Mon Cal cruiser destroyed before it gets more than one volley off by a keldabe, 'working perfectly'?

No it isn't. If that was supposed to happen the Mon Cal cruisers would have a price of 100 and a pop. of 1.

I totally agree with this. Finally someone who understands it. The bottom line is, The Consortium have totally thrown the game off-balance. And I definitely think the MonCals have been left behind.

And Valter, you say the Rebels' strategy is to 'outmaneuver the enemy'. Well, that's very open ended considering the fact that you can do that with ALL sides. There's no special function which allows them to do that so the argument isn't very strong.

By the way thanks SAGEKING-PG for giving us a heads-up. I'm anxiously waiting for a patch because at the moment it isn't very much fun playing with the bugs.

Shadow_015 12-02-2006 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valter
I'll tell you again, the rebel strategy in FOC is to outmaneuver the enemy, not overpower the enemy. Besides, the Mon Cal will always defeat a Imperial Star Destroyer in combat because of the "boost shields" ability.



The rebels still have some advantages in the fighter department; The B-wings can lock s-foils, rendering the fighter virtually untouchable by laser fire and increasing the Incidence of bombing runs, A-wings are better than TIE Interceptors thanks to the "lure" ability and X-wings are faster than any TIE fighter (when using s-foils).



I agree with you here but I don't think giving Mon Cal's a hangar bay is the solution. Now THAT would cause balance problems like mass spamming X-wings and Y-wings.



What will giving the Mon Cal's a hangar bay solve? Tell me Specifically ...

The way it was discussed on Petroglyph's forums and stating that now the specs of the ISD are now better than the MonCal and make it more powerful than a MonCal, it throws the game off balance. I will say it again: in the original the ISD's ability was to be able to spawn a lot of fighters, while the MonCal had shields and both ships had the same armament.

Now, the ISD is more powerful as an individual ship and can spawn a lot of fighters, but the MonCal is untouched. That is unfair, because there is no boost whatsoever for a MonCal. I never said MonCals should be able to spawn unlimited fighters, I said they should get 2 squadrons of different fighter-types and once those die they will be replaced. This would not be spamming fighters, but it would make use of the 'direct-all fire' ability (for the Home One) and again balance the game as both capital ships now have fighters and they both have their special abilities (ISD is stronger, MC has strong shields and both have same armament).

In terms of fighters. Having S-foils is fine and all and it makes the fighters better, but not in combat mode. From what you are saying, it would take A LOT of micro-managing to handle the fighters and line them up for an attack-run on ISDs switching back and forth between S-foils. This should not be the way you would have to do it, their advantages should be natural - the S-foils are there for added speed ability with maneuvering around the map.

ImpElite 12-02-2006 12:23 PM

wow, this guy has multi-post written all over him lol

wedge2211 12-02-2006 12:27 PM

What about increasing the speed and turn rate of the Mon Calamari Cruisers instead of improving their weapons? As long as they can stay in the blind spot behind an ISD, it doesn't really matter how many guns they have...and that would be more in keeping with both the idea of the canon and balancing each side with relative advantages and disadvantages.

Shadow_015 12-02-2006 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ImpElite
wow, this guy has multi-post written all over him lol

well i haven't figured out how to fit multiple quotes into one post so i have to reply individually since im new to this, so bear with me. Unless you'd like to give me some pointers and explain it to me?

wedge2211 12-02-2006 02:42 PM

You can set up multiple quotes by typing in the BBcode manually in your post:

{quote="whoever you are quoting"}
paste whatever they said
{/quote}

...only you should use square brackets [] instead of curly braces {}, which I used so that the board won't actually turn the above code into a quote. ;)

Valter 12-02-2006 03:12 PM

Quote:

I totally agree with this. Finally someone who understands it. The bottom line is, The Consortium have totally thrown the game off-balance. And I definitely think the MonCals have been left behind.
Maybe nerfing the Consortium cruisers is the answer to the balance problems...

Quote:

And Valter, you say the Rebels' strategy is to 'outmaneuver the enemy'. Well, that's very open ended considering the fact that you can do that with ALL sides. There's no special function which allows them to do that so the argument isn't very strong.
Actually, you can't outmaneuver the enemy with every side. The rebel cruisers are twice as fast as their Imperial counterparts for a reason. They are made for hit and run tactics not toe-to-toe slugging matches.

I agree that the Mon Cals are weaker than the Star Destroyers now that they are upgraded, but I don't think giving them a hangar bay is the answer. Maybe increase their rate of fire or increase their shield refresh rate. Maybe they don't need any changes, just nerf the Consortium. They do quite well against Star Destroyers anyway.

CabooseOMalley 12-02-2006 04:33 PM

I'm looking forward to this patch, just hoping that there will be bug fixes aswell...

Oh, and Shadow_015,
I've watched all the RvB seasons, twice, and I've got to say that it's Tucker that says "Bow - Chicka - Bow - Wow" - NOT Caboose, he's the dumb one....

wedge2211 12-02-2006 05:10 PM

There will be bug fixes, they just haven't presented a list.

TearsOfIsha 12-02-2006 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valter
Maybe nerfing the Consortium cruisers is the answer to the balance problems...

That's quite possible. Thing is, the rebels appear to have recieved the most nerfs, and there was a feeling that nothing was going to be toned down.

I certainly don't remember anything in the patch list that mentioned anything about the Keldabe being brought into line - there was even an upgrade for the Vengeance frigate.....

Quote:

Actually, you can't outmaneuver the enemy with every side. The rebel cruisers are twice as fast as their Imperial counterparts for a reason. They are made for hit and run tactics not toe-to-toe slugging matches.
I really not sure what kind of point you're trying to make here. Taken literally, you point here makes no sense, as the pathfinding on Star Cruisers (particularly Home One) is awful - the very idea of describing them as 'made for hit and run tactics' is comical. They aren't. In this game, they're meant for shooting things.

Quote:

I agree that the Mon Cals are weaker than the Star Destroyers now that they are upgraded, but I don't think giving them a hangar bay is the answer. Maybe increase their rate of fire or increase their shield refresh rate.
I must admit, I don't honestly see a hangar bay as being the answer. Home One needs buckets of guns (4 more turbolasers and 2 more Ion Cannons, placed evenly, would be excellent) and the basic MC80s need at least two more of turbos and Ions each. The Boost shield ability is pretty good as it is.

Shadow_015 12-02-2006 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CabooseOMalley
I'm looking forward to this patch, just hoping that there will be bug fixes aswell...

Oh, and Shadow_015,
I've watched all the RvB seasons, twice, and I've got to say that it's Tucker that says "Bow - Chicka - Bow - Wow" - NOT Caboose, he's the dumb one....

OH CRAP lol!!! Sorry! Yeah I totally mistyped that cos on another forum I have this other quote from Caboose. So I think when I was typing this one in I accidentally put it in wrong. I have the same quote on Gamespot but with Tucker's name on it - didn't catch it. Thanks!

jedi7000nathan 12-02-2006 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ImpElite
plus this is a GAME NOT CANON, things have to be balanced otherwise the Empire and maybe the Consortium would kick everyone's butt no sweat. :vsd: :vsd: :vsd: :vsd: :vsd:


:vsd: The game is canon why would lucasarts create a non canon game :blast5: :vsd: and if they it is you won't findm here posting

ImpElite 12-02-2006 07:49 PM

"and if they it is you won't findm here posting "

sorry dont' really understand what you're saying there.... :ears1:


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