LucasForums

LucasForums (http://www.lucasforums.com/index.php)
-   Open Jedi Project (OJP) (http://www.lucasforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=542)
-   -   Server and mod commentary (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=173397)

Lathain Valtiel 12-08-2006 07:53 PM

Server and mod commentary
 
You honestly might as well use the Meatgrinder server for OJP-E. Nobody visits it for Basic anymore, and it's more stable. Plus, if it crashes (...is there a PDuel problem?), I can bring it back up.

And as much as I hate to admit it, roasting you all to death is very amusing.

---

Right, comments...

Flamethrower: Cute, very cute. I like it, it's not overpowering, but it's useful as a tool for wearing down the opposition. I do think its fuel restoration rate should be increased slightly, by, say... 5 to 10%?

Seeker Drone: Also a useful tool for wearing down the opposition. However, it has a few annoying quirks. One, unless I'm hallucinating, it keeps making its activation sound every few seconds. Two, if you move erratically to confuse your opponents, the drone will get in your way and stop you from moving, which is rather irritating.

Thermals: Ehhh... they are NOT worth skill 8 points a pop without a contact explosion secondary. As they are, it's more like 5s... decently easy to evade from what I can see.

Detpacks: DEFINITELY not worth their 8 point cost. Even if they are powerful, there is a delay between dropping and using them, and worse yet they are supposed to be trap weapons. It is not a very effective trap if an opponent can evade damage from two placed in their feet in succession, since the activation means you don't have another weapon to blast them for a second or two. As they are, either double the amount of ammo a slot of Detpack gives you, or drop their point cost to 6.

Rocket Launcher: You already know what I say about this. I actually don't mind how it functions at the moment EXCEPT for the ridiculously long cooldown that stops you from switching away from it. I do think however that 8 per shot is excessive even if that cooldown were reduced or it allowed weapon swap, it should be 7s.

Pistol and Blaster: USELESS. USELESS. USELESS. Blaster definitely needs its secondary function restored, no questions asked. So does Pistol, and possibly make it fire slightly quicker. There's honestly no use for it.

Bowcaster: That secondary needs to be slowed down a bit, but ONLY if Blaster secondary is restored. In the meantime it is fine as it is.

Lightning: The range for the line-based Lightning is a bit too long when you consider its knockdown effect.

Jetpack: Actually, I haven't used this yet. However, if it's possible, could you make it that while in midair and you have it, pressing Jump activates the jetpack?

JRHockney* 12-08-2006 10:02 PM

Quote:

Pistol and Blaster: USELESS. USELESS. USELESS. Blaster definitely needs its secondary function restored, no questions asked. So does Pistol, and possibly make it fire slightly quicker. There's honestly no use for it.
There still useful for fighting other gunners, but yeah they are pretty useless against saber. I kinda miss the secondary fire as well.

I still think that saberists should lose triple DP if they are hit with any kind oblaster bolt while running and swinging. This would make the blasters a bit more useful and make the jedi not just recklessly swing at gunners like they can now and just make it more movielike in general. Thats pretty fair and conservative considering that MB2 allows NO defense while swinging unless they have T3.

Quote:

I actually don't mind how it functions at the moment EXCEPT for the ridiculously long cooldown that stops you from switching away from it.
I don't mind a cool down between shots for the sake of fairness, but if it stops you from switching weapons, thats probably too much.

Quote:

Lightning: The range for the line-based Lightning is a bit too long when you consider its knockdown effect.
Your Probably right. Its kinda of our mods Uber force power. THere are special defenses to it though through absorb (which reverses whos getting shocked XD) and with a saber.

Lathain Valtiel 12-08-2006 10:12 PM

The bowcaster is currently better against both gunners and sabers though, due to its high fire rate. Right now that fire rate is justified since blaster and pistol both stink badly...

razorace 12-09-2006 05:57 AM

Since the thread titles also mentions server commentary, I have a server related question. How many maps of the same gametype should be played in a row?

I've noticed (and have been informed by my server admins) that the best server configs should have multiple maps of the same gametype in a row. How many maps should we have in a row of the same gametype before we switch gametypes?

UDM 12-09-2006 08:31 AM

I'd say 8 of FFA and as many co-op maps as possible. IMHO they should run on a short timelimit, so that the gametype cycle is fast. FFA is only fun for so long before it gets boring. Co-op is the new way of JKA!

Btw would it be a good idea to include the JK2 maps as part of OJP? Or is that copyright infringement? Reason is because I play FFA on the JK2 duel maps a LOT, which are by far much better than JKA's due to their size and majesty. Esp with the new experience system, there's no need to run around picking up ammo. It's a fragger's dream come true. Pure fragaholic fun. We could use JK2's maps in Meatgrinder...?

Plus, JK2's FFA maps and CTF maps are great too.

Lathain Valtiel 12-09-2006 04:53 PM

The JK2 maps are already on the server.

The problem is that NO ONE DOWNLOADS THEM!

Maxstate 12-09-2006 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathain Valtiel
The JK2 maps are already on the server.

The problem is that NO ONE DOWNLOADS THEM!

He's talking about the REAL SP JKO maps.

Lathain Valtiel 12-09-2006 07:38 PM

Errr... he talked about JK2's Duel, FFA, and CTF maps. He didn't say anything about its SP maps.

The JK2 multiplayer maps are on the Meatgrinder.

Sushi_CW 12-09-2006 07:42 PM

My thoughts after playing today on a server stuffed with players:

1. This is insanely fun. :)

2. Once a gunner has rockets, flame, a jetpack, and full absorb, it's insanely hard to kill him as a pure Jedi. Your force powers are just plain useless because of the Absorb. If you do get into saber range he flies away. If you try to keep your distance and deflect his shots back at him he comes just close enough to toast you with a flamethrower.

3. Level 3 Absorb is probably too powerful as a passive power. It's a real bargain: for something that take 12 Skill points and no FP when used, you get full protection from all force powers out there.

Lathain Valtiel 12-09-2006 08:20 PM

It's no one's fault but your own if you choose to be a pure Jedi. Further, that last thing can be countered by Speed, I've been diced up enough by that. It's not a problem with gunners being overpowered, it's a problem of Saber Throw and so on not being implemented yet, as the easy answer to most of those besides Speed is 'Saber Throw'. Implement Throw before you do anything else, because frankly if Sushi refuses to adapt from pure Jedi it's his own problem... after all, gunners with Absorb are impure Jedi.

As is, I agree that passive Absorb should cost more. I'm against requiring it to be activated, though. Just either make it cost more or simply make it drain some FP if you absorb.

razorace 12-09-2006 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sushi_CW
3. Level 3 Absorb is probably too powerful as a passive power. It's a real bargain: for something that take 12 Skill points and no FP when used, you get full protection from all force powers out there.

I thought it still used up some DP or FP to block Force powers. hmmm...

Maxstate 12-10-2006 05:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathain Valtiel
It's no one's fault but your own if you choose to be a pure Jedi. Further, that last thing can be countered by Speed, I've been diced up enough by that. It's not a problem with gunners being overpowered, it's a problem of Saber Throw and so on not being implemented yet, as the easy answer to most of those besides Speed is 'Saber Throw'. Implement Throw before you do anything else, because frankly if Sushi refuses to adapt from pure Jedi it's his own problem... after all, gunners with Absorb are impure Jedi.

As is, I agree that passive Absorb should cost more. I'm against requiring it to be activated, though. Just either make it cost more or simply make it drain some FP if you absorb.

If a player WANTS to be a Jedi in the open JEDI project, he can be one. And if he stays true to his path and doesn't use any gunner gadgets or trinkets he's bound to get some kind of reward for doing so.

Lathain Valtiel 12-10-2006 10:13 AM

He already gets a reward... the reward is not needing to spend the skill points on those gadgets and dedicating his points solely to Force, which is quite dangerous if evoked properly. He'd probably start with a heap of shielding too after awhile. He shouldn't get some bonus for sticking solely to the right side of the skill screen, unless sticking entirely to the left side of the skill screen got you something too.

What you said isn't really an argument against my point. Adaptation is everything, even Obi-Wan pulled a blaster when the situation called for it. So what, should he have lost some mystical Jedi power for using an OMG GUNNER WEAPON? No, I don't think so either.

Maxstate 12-10-2006 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathain Valtiel
He already gets a reward... the reward is not needing to spend the skill points on those gadgets and dedicating his points solely to Force, which is quite dangerous if evoked properly. He'd probably start with a heap of shielding too after awhile. He shouldn't get some bonus for sticking solely to the right side of the skill screen, unless sticking entirely to the left side of the skill screen got you something too.

I want both skilltrees to get equal chance and equal rewards for sticking to their side of the screen. A gunner shouldn't be able to take lightning 3 and not face some kind of penalty. A jedi shouldn't be able to take thermals and detpacks, or a sentry droid without having to face some kind of penalty too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathain
What you said isn't really an argument against my point. Adaptation is everything, even Obi-Wan pulled a blaster when the situation called for it. So what, should he have lost some mystical Jedi power for using an OMG GUNNER WEAPON? No, I don't think so either.

Obi Wan is Obi Wan, I'm talking about Jedi who want to stick to their beliefs and just use their own weapons and powers. If they can do this, they should get rewarded. Same thing for gunners.

Obi wan was also in a life threatening situation, OJP players aren't in a life threatening situation since they respawn.

JRHockney* 12-10-2006 11:47 AM

Quote:

I could shred your argument to pieces man, unlike you.
Easy there, Max. We don't want pick fights here with unneccessary comments. :blast5:

Maxstate 12-10-2006 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRHockney*
Easy there, Max. We don't want pick fights here with unneccessary comments. :blast5:

Okay, just for you then :p

razorace 12-10-2006 04:22 PM

I tend to agree with Lath on this one. Having cross-profession penalties would be hard to code and, well, penaltize realistic New Hope+ era characters.

UDM 12-10-2006 04:41 PM

Yes I agree, simply put, a cross class should never be as powerful as a pure class because he opts for quantity (of weapons and tools) over quality

Let's say I choose to be a merc-Jedi with the following skills in a server with min. 100FP:

- Flamethrower = 8 pts
- Jetpack = 8 pts
- Rocket Launcher lvl 2 = 16 pts
- Cloaking Device = 8 pts
- Bowcaster lvl 2 = 16 pts
- Saber Attack lvl 2 = 16 pts
- Saber Defence lvl 3 = 24 pts
- Force See lvl 1 = 4 pts
TOTAL: 100 pts!!!

Sounds powerful? Not really. I can easily counter this with the following character (assuming Force Sense = Auto force push as I'd suggested):

- Force Sense lvl 3 = 12 points
- Saber Attack lvl 3 = 12 pts
- Saber Defence lvl 3 = 12 pts
- Force Pull lvl 3 = 12 pts
- Force Lightning lvl 3 = 24 pts
- Force Speed lvl 3 = 12 pts
TOTAL: 84 points!!!! That's 16 points less than our cross class. Now let me show you guys how I will beat the cross class.

First, I will turn on Force Sense so I know where he is (if he is onthe ground). If he's flying, well all I need to do is follow the flames. Then, I will just lightning him until his jetpack is out of power. Or if he's on the grounds, he will try to flame me and shoot me at the same time. No problem, just turn on speed, wait for his fuel to run down, then go forward, lightning him or just run up and saber him (but technically, this is impossible for me because my ping is always so damn high)

So you see, a crossed class will lose out eventually

(btw Saber Throw is pretty useless as is, because of the inability to return and inaccuracy. Any ideas on how to make it a more useful skill?)

Maxstate 12-10-2006 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by razorace
I tend to agree with Lath on this one. Having cross-profession penalties would be hard to code and, well, penaltize realistic New Hope+ era characters.

You all seriously want gunners running around with lightning 3, palpatine style?

That's just sick man...
This means that it's no longer the open jedi project. People will have no reason to just stick to the Force and their sabers. Everyone will be running around with detpacks and thermals and bowcasters and flamers and Jedi will just be able to stand there doing nothing.

Man that..just.. it will be friggin chaos! You seriously can't reward someone that sticks to Force and Lightsabers with something extra? Like some specific skill or something? New lightsaber styles? And you can't reward a pure gunner by giving him access to the rocket launcher and other gadgets? Why?

You want this to be a movie-realistic, realistic mod in general but still have some kind of "new hope+ era" feeling? Dudes, our Jedi aren't powerful enough to simulate Jedi from that time. Jedi from that time took on friggin armies of creatures and gunners and came out unscaved. Luke used AT MOST a pistol during his pilot years and afterwards he mainly used his saber and force powers. But the fact that he spent less or no time training his gunner skills, he had enough time to learn how to use Force Grip and to develop his powers even more. If he had sticked to guns and gadgets more he wouldn't of been a Jedi master, I can assure you that.

I know you're gonna bring up Kyle Katarn. And I can counter you immediately:
Kyle Katarn spent time without Force and without his lightsaber multiple times, and each time had to re-learn EVERYTHING he had learned before he put them away! Think about that!

It would be unfair to Jedi, and it's easy for someone like Lath to speak about this, Razor, he likes gunning and primarily uses it ingame. And I've noticed that you've been liking a lot of his ideas, I don't mind that, but lets not get carried away here. This is still a Jedi mod, you didn't spend so much time working on all these Jedi powers, re-making the sabersystem and balancing out so many things just to see it all thrown away?

I mean, if this goes on, I'll have no reason not to use a gun or flamer once I'm low in a duel for example. People that want to duel and not be disturbed by gunners will always have to go into dueling mode to be able to even duel RIGHT. ANd it's not just the dueling part that's gonna get screwed over.

UDM's example is still in the mindset of a very low playercount. He's thinking of 2 players.. if your ambition is to make this mod geared towards 2 player games then you seriously need to ask yourself why you've been spending so much time on this mod.

It won't work like that with a 10 or more man server. You won't be able to track and kill a gunner without getting shot by another. No problem, but I wouldn't like that gunner to be able to buy lightning 3, push 3, jump 3 or absorb 3 and counter everything I have in my arsenal easily.

How are Jedi supposed to kill gunners if they can absorb all Force powers?
Do you guys even KNOW what a seasoned gunner does when a jedi comes close? He just whips out his saber and defends against the Jedi's slashes, flies away and just whips out his rocket launcher again and starts shooting..

Is that what you want? That's just a load of bull and I can't believe you want it that way.

razorace 12-10-2006 06:33 PM

I just don't see it being a problem. Such high level crossover as you're suggesting would indicate that the player would be very high level anyway, so they'd be a killing machine anyway. If they're high level, I don't see any problem with allowing them to specialize merc or jedi or something in between.

Secondly, just because we don't always take your advice doesn't mean it's not an open project. :|

UDM 12-10-2006 08:14 PM

Max: when you are involved in a huge gang fight eg. 4 players and above, you normally concentrate on ONE person alone anyway. In which case, it's still a 1 on 1 situation. In fact, when playing Quake or any other shooter games for that matter, no one in the right mind will try to strike an enemy and when he fails to kill him, he'll then go for another one. You're just opening yourself to more attacks.

And Razor has a point. If a merc can be as powerful as you describe, then why can't the pure Jedi (assuming we've got more force powers and skills)? lol

Besides, we can "penalize" cross characters by adjusting skill points cost.

Maxstate 12-11-2006 04:06 AM

Big thumbs down
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by razorace
I just don't see it being a problem. Such high level crossover as you're suggesting would indicate that the player would be very high level anyway, so they'd be a killing machine anyway.

Where did I suggest HIGH LEVEL crossovers? Luke and Kyle?
Luke couldn't friggin hold his own against the GHOST of a sith lord, let alone defeat one in the movies. Kyle had to re-learn the same thing over and over again 3 times before it finally sticked to him.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Razor
If they're high level, I don't see any problem with allowing them to specialize merc or jedi or something in between.

Well you certainly aren't seeing a problem with allowing them to specialize in something in between, but you are seeing a problem with letting them specialize in the other two.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Razor
Secondly, just because we don't always take your advice doesn't mean it's not an open project. :|

I must've not made myself clear enough, the emphasis goes on the JEDI in the OPEN JEDI PROJECT.


Quote:

Originally Posted by UDM
Max: when you are involved in a huge gang fight eg. 4 players and above, you normally concentrate on ONE person alone anyway. In which case, it's still a 1 on 1 situation. In fact, when playing Quake or any other shooter games for that matter, no one in the right mind will try to strike an enemy and when he fails to kill him, he'll then go for another one. You're just opening yourself to more attacks.

If someone happens to get out of my reach I'm not gonna say: "Oh, he's gone, I'm gonna sit down now.." ESPECIALLY not in a mod like OJP, where it doesn't matter if you die or live because ZING ZING respawn instantly!.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UDM
And Razor has a point. If a merc can be as powerful as you describe, then why can't the pure Jedi (assuming we've got more force powers and skills)? lol

I am the only one that read that he doesn't want to give Jedi any more credit and doesn't want them to be more powerful? How do you think Jedi should be more powerful when the gunner or crossclass can take everything the Jedi can take and more? Seriously?
Quote:

Originally Posted by UDM
Besides, we can "penalize" cross characters by adjusting skill points cost.

I don't agree with this but whatever.

Lathain Valtiel 12-11-2006 04:09 AM

What?

I'm easily the most frequent gun user we have so far who plays this mod with the exception of Jawa Bond. But guess what? I DON'T ACT IN ANY WAY MAX DESCRIBES, AND NEITHER DOES BOND! In about the ten-plus games I've played I've never once pulled out a lightsaber, and the two or so games I saw Bond he didn't do it either. My config is as follows:

- Rocket Launcher 3
- Bowcaster 3
- Flamethrower
- Seeker Drone
- Sentry Gun
- Cloaking Device (Is there a glitch with this? My holstered gun doesn't go invisible...)

- Force Seeing 1
- Force Absorb 3

Total points...

24 + 4 + 8 + 6 + 5 + 8 + 4 + 12 = 71 points.

Really the only big 'what the' is Absorb. It's a tad too powerful as it is because I don't notice it draining much of anything.

And actually, Jump 3 stinks. I don't use it. I don't use Jetpack either. I also don't use push, pull, or lightning 3 except as impulse buys for defense (they do block enemy uses of those powers, no?).

And frankly... so WHAT if you have to go into dueling mode? That's what it's there for! You can't reasonably expect an enemy to just watch and let you finish your duel when he can just kill you both when distracted.

It's BS for you to quote Luke and say 'If he hadn't focused on his powers solely he wouldn't be a Jedi Master', and then say my Obi-Wan example doesn't work, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SAME KIND OF EXAMPLE. I could just as easily say: "Luke is Luke, and he took awhile to develop his powers. I don't suppose you want us to take that long to develop Force ability?" We don't fight 'armies of creatures' either.c I already said that by choosing not to take gun skills you can spend points on Force skills, this is obvious and that's really the reward.

Obi-Wan didn't suddenly lose some power over the Force for pulling out a gun when the situation called for it, and he's the guy who gives the 'lightsaber only' mantra to Luke. As for Kyle Katarn, that's an 'intentional' extinguishing of his powers for fear of the Dark Side, the suppression was so great he had to actually go to the Valley of the Jedi and step into its core to regain them (where's the multiple power loss? I only see that he lost his powers after MOTS due to the suppression, and got them back in JO.). He didn't instantly lose gun skills then and there though, now did he? With all that in mind, your comment on Katarn does not work as he was a special case in all facets.

EDIT: As for your comments to UDM... no, you don't sit down. You pull out a long range weapon and you smite the retreating bastard from afar? Don't have one? Whoops, that's your fault.

Maxstate 12-11-2006 04:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathain Valtiel
What?

I'm easily the most frequent gun user we have so far who plays this mod with the exception of Jawa Bond. But guess what? I DON'T ACT IN ANY WAY MAX DESCRIBES, AND NEITHER DOES BOND! In about the ten-plus games I've played I've never once pulled out a lightsaber, and the two or so games I saw Bond he didn't do it either. My config is as follows:

I said "gunner" not "Jedi. You fight dirty but not that dirty, I agree. But this is what gunners do, and have done in my experience of fighting them.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathain
And actually, Jump 3 stinks. I don't use it. I don't use Jetpack either. I also don't use push, pull, or lightning 3 except as impulse buys for defense (they do block enemy uses of those powers, no?).

The point isn't if you use it, the point is that it will be used and that it will make Jet fuel obsolete. Since you can for example use all of your jetfuel on a target, jump away or stay in the air as long as needed and then just finish them off with the regenerated jet fuel. There's tonnes of strategies that can be used with Jump 3 and I have seen them being used.

I know for a fact that I've RECENTLY (within the last 2 months) had more human to human OJP than anyone else here, I've seen strategies and
Force powers as well as gadgets being used in ways that you wouldn't expect.
This is what I'm talking about, I'm not talking about what Lathain did, I'm talking about what generic gunner/cross class #x can do.

I'm not opposed to crossclasses having force powers if they are given to them in moderation. Gunners can actually CHOOSE if they want to use their FP or not in a fight. In essence they don't need it, FP is a Jedi thing, and there was a fatigue threshold added at 10FP to stop Jedi from spazzing and running and jumping too much. Gunners won't have this problem as they can switch between Jet fuel and Jump 3 indefinetly to escape ANY kind of fight they want. Pure Jedi don't have this commodity, but this should not be a problem if this mod was as Movie realistic as Razor originally intended it to be.

I lately don't even know what he intended it to be, the perequisites for an idea to get in kept changing weekly, sometimes daily ":|".


Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathain
And frankly... so WHAT if you have to go into dueling mode? That's what it's there for! You can't reasonably expect an enemy to just watch and let you finish your duel when he can just kill you both when distracted.

Going into dueling mode is like having one hand chopped off and getting told to go row a boat. You can't use Force powers, you have a distance handicap, you glow like a mofo, and most of all, anyone can wait untill your duel ends to quickly backstab you blow you up.

It's not fair that Jedi should be forced into duel mode to have a duel, if so, gunners should be forced in gun fight mode to have a gun fight.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathain
It's BS for you to quote Luke and say 'If he hadn't focused on his powers solely he wouldn't be a Jedi Master', and then say my Obi-Wan example doesn't work, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SAME KIND OF EXAMPLE. I could just as easily say: "Luke is Luke, and he took awhile to develop his powers. I don't suppose you want us to take that long to develop Force ability?" We don't fight 'armies of creatures' either.c I already said that by choosing not to take gun skills you can spend points on Force skills, this is obvious and that's really the reward.

I was using the "training in something" analogy to explain how our points work, as that seems to be the general consensus among the players I play with each or each other day. I said hordes and armies of creatures because that's what the deal was in the movies, and as I remember, a lot of ideas from people didn't get through to OJP because they weren't movie-realistic enough, which leads me to believe that OJP wants to be a movie-realistic mod. In the movies, Jedi did do this, and yes they were known in using a BLASTER RIFLE OR PISTOL, but not detpacks, thermals, rocket launchers, flamethrowers, sentry droids or jetpacks. If they want too, that's fine, but all that time learning how to use something like that properly is going to keep them away from "Jedi Training", so they can train either of their "sides" but if they train one, the other will deteriorate, atrophy or if they're lucky, just not move.

The reward is having every path that is chosen, be it gunner or Jedi have some kind of benefit over the other.
Now I don't have a problem with cross classes, but they shouldn't GET that benefit, they shouldn't be the abundant type or path in OJP, and they shouldn't be sparked to choose that path either.

If they do, no problem, though in moderation.

Now I'm starting to see what you mean by high level... well...
Say I buy a bowcaster and a jetpack, I'll take another clip for the bowcaster.
That comes down to what, 11 points? And on the Beta server people start with 20 or 25, right? So as a "cross class" I can immediately buy one if not TWO LEVELS of force lightning!

If I ditch the jetpack I can buy all three levels AND have a bowcaster to finish someone off. Now I know you're gonna think Jedi will be able to defend against it and overcome the low level gunner, but that's a load of crock.

Another strategy I saw being used for anti-jedi killing was a gunner just casting lightning 3 whenever the jedi wanted to slash. And since the Jedi only has 63 DP, draining his DP is going to be very easy. And it can only become easier later on once you get more points.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathain
Obi-Wan didn't suddenly lose some power over the Force for pulling out a gun when the situation called for it,

Where did I say he did? He pulled out a gun for a few seconds, I'm talking about people taking big guns. Big guns that require training and explanation to use in the starwars world, big guns that you can't just pickup and do something with.
The training time required to learn how to use these guns is a part of the skill buying process, but it should also further emulate the "time spent" by not allowing the person that did spend time learning how to use a gun, spend time as easy learning how to use Force or a lightsaber. It's logical.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathain
and he's the guy who gives the 'lightsaber only' mantra to Luke.

No, he just says that he doesn't like the use of "crude" weapons such as blasters and prefers the more elegant lightsaber. You could interpret what he said in many different ways. As I've said before, Jedi using typical small arms like an e-11 or a pistol is fine by me, they're not at all that powerful, but why?
They're JEDI, unless in some predicament they lose their goddamn LIGHTSABER somewhere and can't get it back, I don't see the need for that.
But if they still want to do it, fine by me, light arms is okay. But if they want to start using rocket launchers and explosives and all that jazz, they're gonna have to sacrifice something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathain
As for Kyle Katarn, that's an 'intentional' extinguishing of his powers for fear of the Dark Side, the suppression was so great he had to actually go to the Valley of the Jedi and step into its core to regain them (where's the multiple power loss? I only see that he lost his powers after MOTS due to the suppression, and got them back in JO.)

I'll get back to you on that, dates long back.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathain
He didn't instantly lose gun skills then and there though, now did he? With all that in mind, your comment on Katarn does not work as he was a special case in all facets.

What in JO? Ofcourse not, he was a trained mercenary, the whole POINT of him getting his powers back was that he DIDN'T SPEND the time necessary (as even Luke said in the cutscenes) to train them , but instead took the easy way out and just got them handed to him. And since he was a Jedi before this, he only needed a crash course in the basic powers to be able to use them again like he was supposed too.

Tokakeke 12-11-2006 05:15 AM

I fully agree with Max on this. While I don't feel my opinion has much weight here, as I've been away for some time, "gunners should be gunners, not forcewhoring Palpatine wannabes with a blaster rifle". There is no reason for gunners to be able to run around with full force powers and a bunch of heavy explosives. If OJP wants to move away from base and become its own mod, it needs to lay down some ground rules.

The "lol, get everything" force power mechanic used in base was bad enough, but it was based primarily on two things:

1. the game was a Q3 engine game, using Q3 type deathmatch scenarios. Deathmatches are fast paced games where you can run around picking up weapons and not have to worry too much about realism or canonicity.

2. Nobody wanted to have to specialize too much. It's a matter of retail. Kid sees guy with saber on box, sees guy wielding bowcaster on back. Expects this from SP, expects this from MP. Kid buys game, kid plays game, kid doesn't return game to store or write angry letters to devs about how they were only able to play as Joe Bob Jedi or Generic Gus Gunner. This plagued MB and killed its Full Authentic mode - everyone wants to be uber guy with all force and seventyhundred different kinds of rocket propelling firearms, while everyone else has a blaster pistol and 10 hp.

Imagine you're watching Episode 3, and all these clones are coming in on the Temple or something, and some Jedi walks up, pulls a rocket launcher off his back and blows up an entire squad. Not only would you think "wow, this is a really ****ty movie", you'd think, "wow, between solving interplanetary conflict and chopping up hundreds of battle droids, when did that guy learn to precisely aim, lock, and fire a sophisticated 15lb piece of heavy explosives"?

Feel free to rip this apart, but I just want to present my opinion on this.

razorace 12-11-2006 06:29 AM

From what I've been reading, the issues seem to come down to problems with certain skill combinations being "too powerful" vs an actual problem with cross skill taking. Namely, I've seen...
1. Jetpack + Jump 3
If I'm not mistaken, FP doesn't regen while in midair. As such, a gunner isn't going to be able to regen their Jump without being on the ground without running for some period of time.
2. Gunner + Lightning 3
Lightning 3 is VERY expensive, it's literally the most expensive skill with a total cost of 24, which is more than a player even starts with. In addition, I suspect that the main issue for some people is that lightning is currently an instant knockdown skill, which when comboed with a gun allows players to shot their victims dead on the ground. If that's the case, we could probably a nature level of knockdown protection to lightning based on the player's DP or maybe FP level. I'm open to suggestions.

Maxstate 12-11-2006 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by razorace
From what I've been reading, the issues seem to come down to problems with certain skill combinations being "too powerful" vs an actual problem with cross skill taking. Namely, I've seen...
1. Jetpack + Jump 3
If I'm not mistaken, FP doesn't regen while in midair. As such, a gunner isn't going to be able to regen their Jump without being on the ground without running for some period of time.

They can fly somewhere safe away from a jedi, meditate and regain everything, then fly away again untill they aren't full.
Plus, there's no better evading maneuver than the backflip.

Quote:

Originally Posted by razorace
2. Gunner + Lightning 3
Lightning 3 is VERY expensive, it's literally the most expensive skill with a total cost of 24, which is more than a player even starts with. In addition, I suspect that the main issue for some people is that lightning is currently an instant knockdown skill, which when comboed with a gun allows players to shot their victims dead on the ground. If that's the case, we could probably a nature level of knockdown protection to lightning based on the player's DP or maybe FP level. I'm open to suggestions.

Gunner + lightning isn't just wrong because it's overpowered, it's wrong on so many other levels. Like realism, balance, fun factor, movie realism and much more. Bah I don't want to explain anymore.

Lathain Valtiel 12-11-2006 06:40 AM

Sigh... how boring. But nevertheless...

Max:

1: You said:

Quote:

Do you guys even KNOW what a seasoned gunner does when a jedi comes close? He just whips out his saber and defends against the Jedi's slashes, flies away and just whips out his rocket launcher again and starts shooting..
And that is wrong simply because it is a generalization rigged in your favor. In fact it would be stupid and a waste of points in the current climate when instead the gunner could instead do what I do, namely dance away from your strikes and combination seeker droid+bowcaster+charbroil(+ optional sentry gun) you to death. Jawa Bond's strategy of raining death from above with his jetpack blaster rifle, bowcaster, and rocket launcher is also effective (and easily counterable from the start because by his own admission he does not use absorb). Do not lump gun users into one category.

2: Congratulations on finally making a legitimate point. Being able to use Jump 3 in combination with the Jetpack to render fuel concerns moot is rightly insane (despite the 24 minimum point cost), something needs to be nerfed here. I would recommend halting Jetpack fuel restoration while jumping is being done.

Kindly explain the fatigue threshold for me if you would, because restricting Jedi movement is not something that should be done lightly.

3: Well, that's what happens when you choose to operate in a mode called "FREE FOR ALL". You will excuse some of us for taking the name literally. We've had this discussion before.

Lastly, anyone who waits more than a few seconds for your duel to end is crazy (he could be off gaining more points), but for his dedication he SHOULD be able to blast you after you're done.

Honestly, here you're asking for your cake and wanting to eat it too. You can't reasonably call for movie realism when in fact it would be realistic for somebody with a heavy weapon to be able to joltingly disrupt your lightsaber battle. Such battles require intense concentration, and indeed in such situations an outside force has an advantage if he chooses to intervene. It's unfortunate, BUT IT IS REALISTIC. Your recourse is the saber challenge. If you want, why don't you simply ask Razor to remove the Force Power restrictions on it? Why WOULDN'T he do it?

4: The benefit is entirely in your hands by how you choose to spend your points.

Almost all of what you listed is HORRIFICALLY EXPENSIVE, thermals, rocket launchers, detpacks among them. A sentry droid isn't hard to use as far as I can tell. The other two may simply require point adjustment.

Actually, a level of Force Lightning requires a mighty 8 points, quite respectable, and ditching the pack nets you exactly one more level at two. But a Jedi CAN counter that: Force Absorb, Force Push, Force Pull (bye bowcaster!), or even his own Force Lightning (he can't fire when knocked down)... I like the idea that activating it results in Lightning damaging whoever used it myself...

However, I do think that Saber abilities are a bit too expensive and recommend lowering all of their costs to 3.

5: It already does this by making big guns significantly more expensive than Neutral and Light Force counterparts, namely Lightning and Grip. Fully mastering the Rocket Launcher costs exactly the same now as fully mastering the saber, for example.

What you're asking for is a difficult feat of coding from what I can tell. The closest thing to it is Promod, in which daring to take a certain level of gun skill, of ANY gun skill, started locking out any and all ability to gain higher levels of all Force. But that's child's play compared to what you want. The logistics of it would be annoying as sin.

6: They sacrifice points that could've been used for other powers. Seems simple enough.

7: The point here is that Kyle DID have it all. So really, this line of argument is not helping you.

----

It seems obvious to me that a big wan with you guys is the ability to use Lightning in conjunction with heavy weaponry. In that case, we could simply suppress Lightning's use when those weapons are out. *Shrug*

Maxstate 12-11-2006 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathain Valtiel
Sigh... how boring. But nevertheless...

Max:

1: You said:



And that is wrong simply because it is a generalization rigged in your favor. In fact it would be stupid and a waste of points in the current climate when instead the gunner could instead do what I do, namely dance away from your strikes and combination seeker droid+bowcaster+charbroil(+ optional sentry gun) you to death. Jawa Bond's strategy of raining death from above with his jetpack blaster rifle, bowcaster, and rocket launcher is also effective (and easily counterable from the start because by his own admission he does not use absorb). Do not lump gun users into one category.

1: How is this in any case relevant? I'm talking from experience with playing with people on the Euro server. I've seen all kinds of exploits and I'm just naming them here, and I'm saying what CAN and WILL happen once people figure this out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathain
2: Congratulations on finally making a legitimate point. Being able to use Jump 3 in combination with the Jetpack to render fuel concerns moot is rightly insane (despite the 24 minimum point cost), something needs to be nerfed here. I would recommend halting Jetpack fuel restoration while jumping is being done.

2: Yeah thanks, I'm keeping my congratulations card in my pocket still untill you can do the same thing. And how about they just don't get access to jump 3, and get Jump 2 instead? Leave the high level force powers to the Jedi who deserve them.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathain
Kindly explain the fatigue threshold for me if you would, because restricting Jedi movement is not something that should be done lightly.

Once a Jedi's FP reaches 10 or below it you start moving and attacking really slowly to simulate fatigue. Gunners don't have this problem. They can for example use lightning 3 to 10-15 FP and then finish someone off with a rocket everytime they want to kill someone and have no reprecussions for doing so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathain
3: Well, that's what happens when you choose to operate in a mode called "FREE FOR ALL". You will excuse some of us for taking the name literally. We've had this discussion before.

But then I can take your argument and say that if it's free for all, then Jedi are also free to fight other Jedi and be left alone.
Score-whoring is the last thing I want to see in OJP.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathain
Lastly, anyone who waits more than a few seconds for your duel to end is crazy (he could be off gaining more points), but for his dedication he SHOULD be able to blast you after you're done.

He MIGHT, and COULD, but not SHOULD.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathain

Honestly, here you're asking for your cake and wanting to eat it too. You can't reasonably call for movie realism when in fact it would be realistic for somebody with a heavy weapon to be able to joltingly disrupt your lightsaber battle. Such battles require intense concentration, and indeed in such situations an outside force has an advantage if he chooses to intervene. It's unfortunate, BUT IT IS REALISTIC. Your recourse is the saber challenge. If you want, why don't you simply ask Razor to remove the Force Power restrictions on it? Why WOULDN'T he do it?

I'm not a big believer in movie realism and I've never tried to make that point really clear (I kinda lost belief in that when certain things were added). Ace is the one that likes movie-realism but also wants to keep it an FFA inspired mod that has nothing to do with realism or movie realism.
The force restriction is just ONE aspect of dueling mode. Noone wants to have to go into dueling mode just to have a 2 minute undisturbed duel. You want me to take out the dueling card on this? Every time someone in the movies dueled there were no gunners present, or the gunners took a different way or went somewhere else. Think Ep1 when they met Dath Maul in the hanger.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathain
4: The benefit is entirely in your hands by how you choose to spend your points.

No, because if a Jedi wants to STAY a Jedi and nothing else, they are severely limited in power and choice, and that's what bothers me.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathain

Almost all of what you listed is HORRIFICALLY EXPENSIVE, thermals, rocket launchers, detpacks among them. A sentry droid isn't hard to use as far as I can tell. The other two may simply require point adjustment.

A thermal or a detpack is 8 points as far as I recall and it drains a Jedi's full DP meter to the point where a pistol is enough to finish him off. That's not expensive.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathain

Actually, a level of Force Lightning requires a mighty 8 points, quite respectable, and ditching the pack nets you exactly one more level at two. But a Jedi CAN counter that: Force Absorb, Force Push, Force Pull (bye bowcaster!), or even his own Force Lightning (he can't fire when knocked down)... I like the idea that activating it results in Lightning damaging whoever used it myself...

A JEDI CAN'T COUNTER IT because if he is assaulted by lightning he will still block it and it will still drain his DP! Pull doesn't work that way either anymore.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathain
However, I do think that Saber abilities are a bit too expensive and recommend lowering all of their costs to 3.

LOL what's the use of even having Jedi then?
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathain

5: It already does this by making big guns significantly more expensive than Neutral and Light Force counterparts, namely Lightning and Grip. Fully mastering the Rocket Launcher costs exactly the same now as fully mastering the saber, for example.

No it doesn't, mastering the rocket launcher costs 8 points. You don't master anything beyond the point you buy it, you just get an extra shot.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathain

What you're asking for is a difficult feat of coding from what I can tell. The closest thing to it is Promod, in which daring to take a certain level of gun skill, of ANY gun skill, started locking out any and all ability to gain higher levels of all Force. But that's child's play compared to what you want. The logistics of it would be annoying as sin.

Then try something more simple, I'm not TELLING or limiting anyone to anything, I'm giving out suggestions which is the exact thing that these boards are for.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathain

6: They sacrifice points that could've been used for other powers. Seems simple enough.

If they want one, they can have it, but they can't have the other. If they want both, they can have a simple level of both but not high levels of both.
Unless they're in the higher skill ranges.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathain

7: The point here is that Kyle DID have it all. So really, this line of argument is not helping you.

No, the point is that Kyle didn't spend time training anything. He just got his powers handed back to him without having to train for anything.
I don't think that's movie realistic or realistic at all, which is what I think (or thought..) Ace was going for.

----
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathain
It seems obvious to me that a big wan with you guys is the ability to use Lightning in conjunction with heavy weaponry. In that case, we could simply suppress Lightning's use when those weapons are out. *Shrug*

I wouldn't be really content with that, but I guess I don't have any other options seeing as how you all want it this way.

Sushi_CW 12-11-2006 11:07 PM

Eep. Lots of long passionate posts.

I have no problem with Jedi and gunners cross-classing. The only problem I have is when certain power/gun combinations become virtually invincible to Jedi. Namely, jetpack + jump 3 + rockets + flame + absorb 3. The Jedi can't use lightning, push, or pull because of absorb, the gunner can always get away with either the jetpack or jump, the gunner can deal damage to the jedi with the flamethrower without any way for the jedi to defend against it except keeping his distance, and if the Jedi is at a distance, the gunner can spam him with rockets.

IMO, the biggest problem in that mix is the cheap passive immunity from all varieties of force powers with Absorb 3.

JRHockney* 12-12-2006 02:14 AM

I don't have too much trouble with gunners having lightning 3. Jedi can just use absorb and reverse who gets shocked when they try it for the most part.

Quote:

IMO, the biggest problem in that mix is the cheap passive immunity from all varieties of force powers with Absorb 3
yeah that might be a little too much trouble. I've always been a bit nervous about making Absorb passive and this is way. I still think that people holding a gun should only get level 1 protection from whatever forcepower they have or are blocking (which means they have to walk to block force powers they have)

We're trying to create a "build your own character form of gameplay here so we need to be careful about what we limit and what we don't. We just need to make sure that all powers, items, and weapons reasonable counters to them and that there are no unbeatable combinations.

And lets not get overly passionate about this stuff or this is just going to end up being and unconstructive flame war.

Lathain Valtiel 12-12-2006 03:16 AM

Ugh, no more walking than we already have please. It's slow enough as it is.

Doctor Shaft 12-12-2006 09:02 PM

Alright, after having played around for a while, I'll add my two coppers here. All of htis is based on the settings we have with Meatgrinder. If things are non-issue because experience point rewards would be higher, etc., then disregard what I have to say.

Firstly, I think we're getting too caught up in a "Combinations" war. While there are some combinations that are posing problems for us, the issue is not the combination itself so much as the powers and weapons at hand.

I think the biggest issue that we have to resolve for this current version is three fold: Force Power variety, countering abilities, and Ability Costs.

Force Power variety is first. Simply put, we're sorely needing it. We've regressed to a system that involves too much on Jedi using knockdowns to get hits with the lightsaber. I'm all for knockdowns being used constantly, but it's currently ALL we have. As far as I'm concerned, why waste points on lightning when I can do just as well with some level of push and pull? Jedi are currently one trick ponies in the Force department. We need variety, badly. I know we're still sorting out what powers there should be available, and a lot of hte ideas I provided were outlandish in terms of implementing and using. But I've seen some nice, simple ideas lately. We need to get around to implementing them, and giving Jedi something more than "Knockdown/slash". It's great... but it's not good enough.


The next issue we have is with countering abilities. This is closely related with ability costs. Currently, the cost to get access to certain abilities, in order to counter other abilities, is a bit skewed. If I want to counter a rocket launcher, I need access to Force Push, or Pull. Or I need a jetpack to keep safe. Something. On a low experience point server, this becomes a problem. I don't get easy access. Countering being knocked down requires at least a level of Force Jump. Again... with other essentials, like having a lightsaber, that is a bit expensive and slow to get to.

In a higher point game, I'd still say that the cost to counter abilities is either too high, or too rigid. Want to counter lightning? You MUST build yourself in a certain manner. Want to avoid rockets? Must have certain abilities ready. I don't mind that this is so, but I think we need to tweak costs a bit to reflect this.

Lightning gets cursed because the methods of countering it require to stringent a set of abilities. Costs need to be adjusted. Perhaps lightning needs to cost a great deal more. I'm not sure.


Costs and variety are our two biggest problems, as far as I can tell. That's what we should be focusing on next, outside of tweaking saber combat (I'll post in that other thread... JR Hockney is on to something as far as I'm concerned).

We currently have a system that involves this:

-Saber combat
-Abilities that knock you down
-Abilities that let you fly
-One ability to negate force powers

Other powers are currently suspect or non-issue. Sense... eh. Speed... eh. Grip... I'm still trying to figure out what it's purpose is. I'm trying to be creative... but it's not really working.

So that's it. I don't think it's really the combinations that are the problem, as much as it is how much things cost, and what variety is available. In a game where knockdowns are predominant, then of course we're going to see some combinations that are irksome because they take advantage of delivering knockdowns and countering them all at the same time.

If Jedi had access to different abilities, then they may not be as frustrated with Gunners that have "Push" abilities or other mobility. If we focus on powers that aren't necessarily beneficial to getting range and firing guns, then Jedi wouldn't be so pressed in the "trying to be pure" department.

Otherwise, the game seems fine to me. Being a Jedi requires craftiness, which is what I like. I don't want to get special bonuses for not using guns. I do, however, want costs to be adjusted so that if I don't spend points on guns, I can still afford a combination of abilities that is unique enough to allow me to get around.

Gunners are at a good power level right now. They can kill quickly. The blaster is non-existent, but that bowcaster is awesome. The rocket launcher is irksome at times, and I wonder sometimes if the splash damage is affecting the shooter as much as it's affecting everyone else. The flamethrower is a cool weapon, and I think it's been implemented nicely. Gunners don't need to be nerfed.

Jedi, on the other hand, do not need a power boost either. They simply need a small adjustment on some costs, along with variety. Variety simply meaning abilities other than "Push that guy to the ground" or rather, abilities that have an affect on the battlefield that goes beyond point and shoot. The weakness here is that using a sword and having a push ability is great, but we need powers to augment our sword, since that's our killing tool.

Heal, Protect, Mind Trick, Rage, Drain, Sense, and Speed need to do something here. Speed going fast isn't really helping right now. Sense is... a wall hack that sees little use outside of that. WE have five other things. We really need to pull together and focus on that list of powers. And start trying stuff out.

Just like gunners needed some gadgets... Jedi need gadgets right now. Not a power boost. Not restricted access. Gadgets.

Lathain Valtiel 12-12-2006 09:08 PM

Speed could be useful to cut down gunners that don't use Jetpack. I've been offed by guys using it rather consistently, about 50% of the time.

Grip IS basically freaking useless though.

I have an idea.

How about we have Lv. 2 and 3 of Sense be counted as a sort of 'minor precognition' passive ability, allowing the Jedi to expend less DP to avoid attacks than normal, namely by a percentage? For Lv. 2, 5% reduction in DP costs, and for Lv. 3, 10% reduction.

We also need to see the return of Mind Trick, as a weighed power of course. Lv. 1 Sense only counters up to Lv. 1 Mind Trick and so on. It would also be AWESOME if it could be made so that if you Mind Trick somebody, attack, and successfully hit, it counts as a 'surprise attack' that costs more DP to evade.

JRHockney* 12-12-2006 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathain Valtiel
Speed could be useful to cut down gunners that don't use Jetpack. I've been offed by guys using it rather consistently, about 50% of the time.

Grip IS basically freaking useless though.

I have an idea.

How about we have Lv. 2 and 3 of Sense be counted as a sort of 'minor precognition' passive ability, allowing the Jedi to expend less DP to avoid attacks than normal, namely by a percentage? For Lv. 2, 5% reduction in DP costs, and for Lv. 3, 10% reduction.

We also need to see the return of Mind Trick, as a weighed power of course. Lv. 1 Sense only counters up to Lv. 1 Mind Trick and so on. It would also be AWESOME if it could be made so that if you Mind Trick somebody, attack, and successfully hit, it counts as a 'surprise attack' that costs more DP to evade.

I kind of like these ideas. Especialy that mind trick one. I want to see that back in.

Lathain Valtiel 12-12-2006 11:30 PM

For the Mind Trick idea, I was also thinking you could give a special advantage with the saber due to melee requirements.

IE, if you Lv. 3 Mind Trick somebody and hit them with a lightsaber at Lv. 3 Saber Attack, they should be one of two things: dead or out of DP.

Here's the idea: You surprise hit at Lv. 2 Mind Trick, your attack costs 50% more DP to evade than normal. For Lv. 3, up that to 100% more DP, doubling it.

This applies unless you use your saber. Then those values are double to a cost of 3x the DP and 4x the DP. I'd hope that 4x DP is basically, if not instant death, close to it. It should be instant death to any gunner who gets caught probably.

razorace 12-13-2006 01:12 AM

It's an interesting idea but I don't see a counter for gunners. People could just use it all the time without penalty.

Lathain Valtiel 12-13-2006 07:56 AM

A relatively high FP cost should negate that, besides, guns already get a lower bonus. Besides, do you have a better idea? There needs to be more Force Powers. You can't really compensate much for the nature of a long range weapon without intentionally nerfing them. There's a reason so few people fight with swords anymore.

Honestly, there should not be some inane 'gunner vs. Jedi' debate, because such a side is imaginary, seeing as how there isn't a restriction except on what you buy.

Maxstate 12-13-2006 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathain Valtiel
A relatively high FP cost should negate that, besides, guns already get a lower bonus. Besides, do you have a better idea? There needs to be more Force Powers. You can't really compensate much for the nature of a long range weapon without intentionally nerfing them. There's a reason so few people fight with swords anymore.

Honestly, there should not be some inane 'gunner vs. Jedi' debate, because such a side is imaginary, seeing as how there isn't a restriction except on what you buy.

This is your opinion, ofcourse.

Then there's people like me who would like to give equal opportunities to all builds and not just the ones that buy everything.

JRHockney* 12-13-2006 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by razorace
It's an interesting idea but I don't see a counter for gunners. People could just use it all the time without penalty.

Well, the high FP cost would be one thing, and gunners could just use seeing right? Hmm. or if they dont like force powers, maybe a radar!


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:39 AM.

Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LFNetwork, LLC ©2002-2011 - All rights reserved.