Viewlocking..
 

I've figured out why OJP's saber combat seems very chaotic, messy and non-fluid to many people.

It's viewlocking and I have to say I agree with them.

Your character and view get stuck everytime you hit someone and I know this is supposed to somehow improve realism but could we think about removing it completely?

I for one don't like it, neither do numerous others and it makes the combat just feel very choppy.

I see no reason against removing it other than sentimental purposes.

That is how I feel about removing the ease of running away, anyways, good luck on getting it removed. I don't disagree or agree with the idea entirely, but I would like to see how it would be like without view locking though.

I suppose we could shorten the collision stops a bit, but I never liked how the previous combat looked so flowy it was like two ghosts floating back and forth as if they werent having to brace themselves for an impact. Thats still something that drives me nuts about MB2 combat.

As far as the viewlock in general for collisions, I agree it can get annoying, but its what keeps the combat looking alot more realistic, because without it like it is, you have sabers going through people all the time without damage. Back around 0.0.7 or so, we got alot of complaoints about that problem and it took this strong of a view lock to make it even as solid as it is right now.

<--- To clarify, my post was only talking about view lock (Not collision stops). You do make a valid point JRHockney, but you would also have to take into consideration that some of the realistic features (The way they were implemented) aren't always best... *Looks at the new pre-block animations and the way they forced the alteration of how attack parries worked : | *

I was just playing 009f, and I must say that I prefer it if collision stops were not removed. The feel of 009f without collision stops and the feel of 009r with collision stops differ greatly, but I have a preference for the collision stops personally. My opinion does not differ on view locks, I wouldn't mind seeing how 009r would work without view locks. Any ETA on the next O.J.P. Enhanced build though?

Based on the reversal of opinion on basically every single feature, I'd say that the next build happened 6 months ago. :|

I actually like the viewlocks, that improves realism a lot, contrary to basejka where you just swing through people, sometimes damaging them a bit, here when you get blocked/parried your saber stops, so does your view, it's a good representation of a "can't go further" thing.
Removing them is bad, to me.

I don't think anyone save for Hockney knew what was going on here, nor knew that they could make a difference by posting.
I never had the chance or opportunity to voice my opinion on this..

The reason I'm posting about it now is because I've recently been playing a lot of other sword and saberfighting games and I've been comparing very fluid systems (that most people like) to OJP's system.

In OJP if you get hit or you hit someone:
-Your view locks on them.
-You stop moving.
-There's a small 'break' in the saberplay because of the viewlock.

We don't need to remove all of this, but I would maybe like to see it tweaked.
There's no reason Jedi have to look at their opponent or stand still to block any kind of slash, this only prohibits players from using movement and it really gives a 'tight' and locked down feel to the saberplay.

Now I don't like yawers, especially not since I've found out that it can still be used (and with tremendous effect I may add) in OJP.
And I'm also not saying we should remove everything, but we should tweak it a bit for it to seem more realistic and not to compromise the style of more mobile players, and not to annoy players as much.

People will face a double DP penalty if they try to run and get hit, so don't start what I think you want to start :thumbsdown:.

Further more, if you don't like the idea, maybe we can try and see how it is without it for a few days and measure the general consensus afterwards?

If collision stops were removed and nothing else was put in place of it, then the fights would look pretty unrealistic and play bad (in my opinion) because nothing is stopping the opponent from going straight in your face. If you were that close in a saber fight, you would pretty much get omgwtfpwnt like Dooku did when Anakin reeled his hands in and chopped them off. I have been thinking a bit, and removing view locks would also make parrying easier than it already is given you have extra time to do it, and I am not sure if making things easier is a good idea. *looks at attack parries yet again*

Sorry to hear that Razor :| Although to be fair I never was actually around when most of these features that want to be reversed were implemented :P (my mistake, and I apologize for not being here) I like most of the changes though, but one example I dislike is the ease of attack parries :P

Based on the differing options already posted, I doubt we're going to reach a real consensus on a "popular opinion" on this issue.

What games? I'm not sure its really fair to compare us to other sword fighting games since I doubt any of them did their combat like we did or had the game engine limitations we do. They also probably had an army of coders :p If fluidity means bringing back that whole sabering on ice feel we use to have or means our sabers go right through people as bad as they use to, I'm not for it at all. Honestly, I don't this is really that big of an issue to take away from coding other things or fixing bugs unless Razor is open to try tweaking it.

Hehe, I hadn't even thought of that. You're right, those stops really do make it alot harder to get in peoples faces than it use to be.

I know I know. They do tend to happen too often, even unitentionally. I thought they would be fine since they are harder to do the first time attempted in combat, but since they are a very important mishap cash in move, that might not be a good thing. To be fair though, some of the frequency also depend on the players style. Even the old attack parries could be used in a big amount by a more defensive player. I don't know, if razor agrees it happens too often, its up too him if he wants it tweak it some how. If we wanted to bring back the old way, I'm not sure we can keep the preblocks unless some kind of override for them to start the start fake can be made.

LOL, thats trial and error for ya. Heh, know we know how the MB team feels :p Well its bound to be happen here plenty since we don't have MB2's army of beta testers and a player base that numbers in the thousands to give a perfect critique of everything new that is done. Often times we don't end up seeing the upsides and downsides of a feature until we see it in the context of something else. Sadly, its unrealistic to think we'll get think of everything everytime we hypothesize a new or changed feature. All we can do is our best with the resources that we have.

I think you're right *sigh*.
Although (looking at the past) it does seem like you guys need some time to catch up so I'll give it some simmering time :p:p

Well some new ones like:
MB
Oblivion
Dark Messiah of might and Magic
Doom 3 Ninja Tournament
The Prince of Persia series

but also some very old ones like "Severance blade of darkness".
The stops are the most annoying to me, there is no reason someone shouldn't be able to get into someone else's face if they don't want too..
I thought our saber system was up to the point of allowing multiple styles and strategies for people? But we just keep trying to close down so many of them.

Power attackers got nerfed, turtlers got nerfed, runners got nerfed while the real problems such as multistrikes, lunge and the overpoweredness of kick stay and flaunt around.

I've noticed they happen a lot with overhead and diagonal overhead strikes, but nothing that a quick power attack couldn't cure.
You know *looks back at his own posts* if we just removed the saberlock from powerattacks like I said months ago, and leave the saberlocks only if someone is near critical DP, power attacking would be much easier again as it could be comboed..

MB *cough* are you sure you even hit the saber? did it make contact? or did it just drain 3 hp?!
heh not really a question, don't bother answering, just laughing at MB compared to OJP.

Well, of course we could give a try in tweaking the view locks, if it's bad, the next version can put it back...
Although I still thing it's a good point, removed would be totally stupid, tweaked, I don't know, if the time was reduced of 25% or something... maybe it could be good (better?).

Agreed to everything.

Attack parries are pretty easy to do and it is extremely easy to do it unintentional when attacking. Attack parries could be used more by defensive players, but to be fair, it was more difficult and 9/10 times it was not unintended like a lot of the times it is in 009r. It is pretty easy for me to be doing transitions and for an attack parry to pop out of the blue without I ever wanting to actually do one, it slows down the pace in my opinion, and it is extremely easy to do in comparison to before.

I am not sure how you believe Oblivion of all games has a fluid sword system. To each their own I guess :p

Personally one reason I would give is that light sabers are too deadly in close range. Like the example given with Anakin and Dooku. Also, I agree that O.J.P. has a much nicer feel to it instead of that ice like feel it used to have.

Power Attackers: Just because attack fakes go into a saber lock does not mean they got nerfed, personally I believe it gives them extra choices such as finishing off a foe or slow bouncing to continue the pain train. Although it does make it less useful to cash in on mishap, which it used to do very well in the past if I recall correctly.

Turtlers: Seeing how it is pretty damn easy to run away, and how I can most of the time just go 100 percent defense without dying, and how attack parrying is easier to do than a hooker, I am not sure where you are getting this.

Runners: If you want to go to a run world with no restrictions go play Japlus or Base Jedi Academy. Running without restrictions/penalties would almost kill the cause of the whole 'walking' theme of O.J.P. Enhanced's saber system, or at least I believe that. Even with these so called penalties, like I have said in the past, it is still extremely easy to just run away from a saber fight. But that seems to be o.k. for some people, which comes off as odd to me.

Multi-strikes: That is open for discussion.

lunge: I don't see the big issue, it has been through numerous tweaks to ensure balance, care to point out where does it become overpowered?

Kick: That is open for discussion, although I agree that kick really is not where I would like it to be personally.

Just my 2 cents, take care all.

Is this a general consensious that the viewlock time needs to be lower or is Max the only one who has a problem with it?

Unfortunately this is a lag dependant feature so laggy players will probably have a worse experience with it than LPBs.

Remember when some people were suggesting there be a way to (such as an invinsible force field) that allowed opponents to keep their distance from each other? Well if I recall correctly, it was too difficult/impossible because of the game engine. View locks/Collision stops give us that to an extent, so I would not agree for it to be shortened or removed. I think that would just be going back to that whole ice feel that JRHockney mentioned :|

@ post number 15:
I am not in the mood of starting an argument that'll go on forever.
Everything is open to discussion. It's not immediately solved or done with when you say so. I will handle some things further down this post.

@ Razor
I've decided not to push this idea if noone wants it, but I'll tell you that it'll cause problems later. Not like it's your problem anymore :p

@JackBaldy #17
Do you ever do research when you post something?
As far as I can remember the forcefield thing was set up to deal with specific bugs or problems that were up around the time the saber system was still infantile.
Something like it would now be superfluous.

I don't think anyone here has the right to say when someone can or can not use a certain strategy if that strategy does not involve bugs.
Who am I to say that someone shouldn't be able to run away from a duel? Who am I to say that someone shouldn't be able to use his surroundings, run and hide from me if he needs to regenerate.

It is ofcourse very irritating I can agree, but we shouldn't be rule out all the possibilities in the game that make a player unique. All the dynamics that can be used.

Surely if we were so good to beat them once, we can do it again? But is this the point even? We get points for the duel, not the kill which makes for even more reason not to care about runners.

I'm sorry in advance for the ad hominem, but it seems to me the only reason you want people to be unable to flee is because your tactics utilize upclose sabering and transition-shortening which require your opponent to be close.

Moreso, your argument about Dooku is flawed.
Anakin uses Djem-So. Djem-So is the overpowering, brute strength form. He didn't need to get close up but it was the only way he could make quick work of Dooku's fast legwork and extremely precise parries. I'll even take your example and give you another one: Ep3 Anakin versus Obi Wan, when Anakin's saber and body are pushing up against Obi with such force that he curls him down in a saberlock. The same one that killed Dooku but it didn't kill Obi-Wan.

Players are already punished enough for running if you ask me. Once we balance out Absorb and make sure that Force powers become useful again, runners won't be much to deal with.
I'll make you happy right now and tell you that Ensi has been working on a sprint type Force Speed which (if I understand right) is almost done or done already.
Combined with a tweaked Absorb, I don't think we'll have problems with catching up with runners.

I'd also like to adress the "icy feeling". Again I'll point to the case I made 3-4 paragraphs above. I am not out to remove viewlocking in it's completeness, but players should not be restricted in movement even if in a duel. There is no reason for a Jedi to all of a sudden be locked up with his opponent if he parries a saber attack..

You want me to give movie examples too? I'll try not to pick the ones that can be dissected:
Obi wan/Qui versus Maul - ep1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4tyDXsK5jM

Clearly showing movement, crouches, ducks and jumps while parrying and slashing.
The part from 1:37 for example?

Obi wan vs Darth Vader: (at 22 seconds and on)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZpUL01tv3E

Even in the old trilogy, they moved while they were sabering, and most of the people doing it were as old as the sun.

Darth Vader vs Luke: (1:06 and on)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZpUL01tv3E

Same thing.

Anakin vs Dooku (0:48 and on)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWFwAzVvleI

Same....


Do I need to continue?

So it's in the movies, it's realistic, it's in every saber system I've played with..... why not?

Personal reasons? Give me a break, there was loads of stuff I hated to see go and also loads of things I hated to see come in but I've sucked it up too.

--

That's the only thing I found that actually made sense or was worth arguing about.

I guess I must emphasize on the statement, 'if I recall correctly'. Anyways, I am pretty sure others and myself suggested there be something to stop people from getting close so easily.


Using your same logic. Who is to say that people shouldn't be able to jump around like in basejka for elusive tactics? Who is to say that there should be even any penalties on running for people who want to run 24/7 like in basejka? Who is to say that the jump kicks from JO or Japlus shouldn't be in the game because they constitute as some sort of strategy? In my opinion that logic does not stand at all.

Of course in the movies they moved while fighting. But in the movies no where did I see a moment where a Jedi/Sith was able to run in so close without having lethal consequences. Come back to me when you are able to make a mod that has fluid combat exactly like in the movies. I am pretty sure it is near impossible to do it within the quake 3 engine and it is best to put in some features that may emulate the feel of the movies. Also another thing, now that we are bringing up the movies, the combat movement in the movies is not exactly running speed in O.J.P. nor the walking speed in O.J.P. I would have loved to see Quigon hurting and then quickly just running away in DoTF. Same with Dooku.

I can easily run away while in low dodge points and low force points for a very long while. Somehow that does not translate into running being punished enough. Force powers were rarely used in saber fights, and I don't believe I ever saw a specific moment when force powers were used to catch a runner. And the sprint type power is nice and all, but it would also be available to the runner. Along with bunny hopping which was never removed and is definitely not movie realistic material.

I would love to see a video of that to analyze it.

If this is a reply to my 'personally' comments, what I mean by that is personal preference.

Example:


Kick: That is open for discussion, although I agree that kick really is not where I would like it to be personally.


Kick: That is open for discussion, although I really do not think kick is where it should be in my opinion.

Have fun.

*edit*


Right, of course. /sarcasm
Anyways, no it is not. I have been saying this for a very long time, even when transitions weren't as easy to do as they are now. I find it hard to believe that you have not figured out my standing on this, and give out a false reason to intend to insult me. My stand on the matter: I do not think it is fair for anyone to be able to easily run away without any consequences. In MBII, in Base Jedi Academy, and even in Japlus, you lose health. That is a sort of consequence, as for in O.J.P., you lose dodge points which can recover, and force points as well. Basically, no real consequences to running away in O.J.P., which is not really movie realistic, otherwise we wouldn't really see a lot of sabering deaths in the movies if they had the ability to run away so easily.

Not this again...


Mhm.

Sorry, not the same thing.
I'm still talking within the boundaries of what we call "OJP".

Insert new coin :)


Who said I wanted OJP to be an exact movieclone, or that I want an exact and perfect movielike sabersystem? Not me lol.

Qui-gon and Dooku were both on a mission, it wasn't a battlefield like that with which we are presented with in OJP. For them it was either fight or die.
Furthermore, I was referring to them being very mobile while in combat. Since when does that translate to "running away" ?

Insert new coin :)

Objection, calls for speculation they would say in an American courtroom drama show (I've watched far too many...).

1: I've proven to you ingame that that isn't as easy as you thought it would be if the opponent expects it.

2: One could argue that burst of speed and Force jump were used in all the episodes. And if you stop playing naive for a second you can figure that out on your own. Direct or non-direct, force powers are force powers, in the movies we don't see someone's afterblur behind them when they use the Force to sprint however.

3: But if the runner has enough Force points to use it, you haven't quite weakened them well enough have you? Maybe you've just gotten a few potshots at an unsuspecting bypasser that didn't touch you and now want to finish the job but he won't let you? First, if you have attacked your opponent enough to warrant a kill then I don't think he'll be left with a lot of FP.
Second, using Force Speed will not only drain a starting amount of FP, but it will also open you up to other force powers, reducing your protection against them.

You speculate so well, why not use your magnificent power to predict these obvious counters? :rolleyes:

4: Bunnyhopping? Great.. more what-if's..


I would like to see a video proving that the upclose-attack of Anakin was a critical hit and not just a killing blow. Do you really think Dooku would make such an error if Anakin hadn't drained him out already? Jeez..


I don't really have fun doing this, you're a big source of frustration for me whenever I visit these forums.


Darth maul runs away from Qui and Obi and could've kept running without any damage.... twice. Dooku flees from Yoda, etc. etc.

How am I insulting you? I just gave my opinion (like you did? OMG!) on why I think you still want viewlocking and clashing in. Should I lie to myself and pretend as if I'm dumb?

Heck, you still play MovieBattles, I don't think you really care about "the icy feeling"...

Have fun countering, I don't think I'll reply again due to sheer laughing sprees.

well thats when they have there back to u and open to force attacks and u zap throw ur saber ull push them ect. ect. so u can stop runners and the whole bunny hoping u would massively drain your force making the saber swing as slow as heck and like when u have ur back turned when u jump ur open to the force again

@Maxstate <--- Tired of quoting so I'll just respond in no specific order to your post. Darth Maul never ran away from Quigon, he was just defending while advancing towards the laser room. And against Obiwan he just had a short burst of speed when he had a window of opportunity to get away which did not last long, and don't go telling me that he could have run away an infinite amount of time, because that just is not true. How are you not insulting me? You are claiming that the only reason I want running more heavily penalized is because of a strategy that I may use up close. Not only is that a lie, you seem to believe that you know exactly what I am thinking and that I have hidden agendas on certain features. Another false assumption that you state as gospel is that I still play Movie Battles. I wonder where in the blue hell did you come up with this. By the way, I do not.

If you frustrate yourself over somethings said in the forums that is your problem. Grow up, someone disagreeing with you does not mean automatic flagging as enemy or frustration. Another thing, when did I say Dooku made the error? I just stated that sabers up close are lethal. Dooku did not make the error, Anakin just took the right approach and reeled his hands in and chopped them off.

And as for you proving to me that it is not easy in game to run, that is again, false. The only way you were ever capable of catching up to me was with speed, and even then, you still had trouble catching me. And once I got speed, you couldn't catch me at all, and I had much more ping than yourself also. And as for the whole running matter, what is enough attacking for you? I purposely lowered my force against Hoc ni and was easily able to get away. Usually defending takes away less force power than being offensive, so why wouldn't I have enough force power to use force sprint/speed? Hell, at Templar you always meditated before I even had to, so I don't see where you are coming with all of this. And of course I can only speculate on this force sprint because it is not actually in game <_< Bunny hopping was brought up because movie realism was part of the subject, which of course bunny hopping is not.

Dooku never intended to die in that battle with Anakin, and if he could have easily ran (much like you can in O.J.P.), he would have, or I would assume that anyways. And I think you are talking within the boundaries of what you see O.J.P. as anyways.

You can try to take as many cheap shots as you want at me, one being of making the false accusation that I still play Movie Battles, which I do not. Won't matter to me, and in the end just ends up showing how 'mature' you are... >_>

Quick tips: Improve your spelling, grammar and punctuation to make your post more understandable. No offense meant, but I just will not reply to that massive mess of your post.

He actually was running away and was trying to recooperate from the beating he had taken, and he and Quigon both did.

Why is it an insult? Yes I am claiming that, if you feel insulted by it that's your problem lol.
I don't need to be psychic to know that everyone takes care of themselves.
There's a very old Bosnian proverb in which the scenario is that the village or town is burning and one of the town's dogs is barking. Translating the proverb: "The dog barks not for the town, but for his own skin".

Kaykay :)
If only it were that simple, Jack. You're the reason many posters and contributors don't have the will or lust anymore to carry on with OJP.
I'm just the only one that's still showing it. An old friend taught me to just say what I have to say and not talk around people's backs, and I'm tired of talking around yours, I'd rather fight it out now.

Frustration is not a sign of maturity, you're just annoying.
When did I state that you were stating that Dooku made an error?
You didn't make it clear enough if you meant that Anakin's attack was the final blow, or if it was just a random critical.
If you think it was the latter, you are mistaken. That is all I said.
I had trouble catching you because I got assaulted by the bots along the way, I hit you about 3 times and you were open to a push or pull but I didn't react fast enough as I was fending off the bots :)
And that's exactly what I'm saying..
Why should I be able to catch you if the odds are even? I shouldn't.

Lost you here.
I wasn't referring to that... oh dear lord.
Bunny hopping was brought up to make your arguement have more backbone.

In the EP3 battle? ofcourse he couldn't run, he was on a friggin spaceship.

Well I guess it's your word against mine.

Oh, I'm almost 17, not mature yet. I'd like to enjoy my childhood thank you :)

I give up, every time I reply to any of your posts an argument gets initiated. Take care Max.

<--- Playing at his server for any who care :P

Thank you for ending that rediculous argument of snide comments, and since you ended it (hopefully), you win no matter what the strength of your arguments were. :p

[begin moderator vet] CAN YOU GUYS POST WITHOUT ONE OF YOU GETTING PISSED OFF OR TAKING OFFENSE??!!! THIS ISNT THE MB2 FORUMS (no offense MB2 guys)!!! For the love I get off from work only to have to search the entire page to find the last non-snide/pissed off post to respond to because of these silly verbal duels. As a Moderator of these forums, I'm really getting sick of it. From now on, no smart a** comments between either of you PLEASE! Don't make me get out my trusty delete post gun! (loads gun)[/end moderator vet]

To be fair, I'll support removing the stops for the a parrier but not in any other situations because it is realistic and I do not want to see those old close range lightning strikes come back into our game as bad as they were before. Its still plenty possible to get close range at the moment and I dont want to see it as bad as it use to be.

I'm also ok with experimenting on the viewlock to see if it improves combat, but if it doesnt help much and ends up bring back the sabers going though people all the time like they use to, I expect that to be the end of this. This would better tested with a code server though and I'm not sure Razor has the means to set one up atm.

Oh yeah, and just for the record, the idea for the stops actually came from obi vs mual duel, but was originally meant to be used more with running. The way it ended up was more based on how we imagined we'd deal with a sword or saber collion in real life.

This is a bit OT, but I found this sad. We have to apologize directly after making a comment to MB for fear of some MB team member picking up their pants, and stomping their feet in here with a mad/O rly tone. (NO OFFENSE MB GUYS) ;)

Oh and for the blah blah, run away arguement. You can solve that problem relatively easy, no? If the user is running, or has their back to you they become open to force powers.

Oh and another thing I was thinking of(not sure if it is the right time to suggest it), is if hp was drained during fights from strikes. If that is seen as a bit of a stretch then atleast saber locks could affect hp in some shape or another.

Sorry Hocks, I'm just sick of getting stepped on for having an opinion (and defending it) :)

I'll try not to create more arguments.