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-   -   blu-ray v. HDDVD (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=176992)

Jeff 03-27-2007 06:45 PM

blu-ray v. HDDVD
 
Which next-gen video format do you think will succeed?

Davinq 03-27-2007 07:03 PM

I'm happy with normal DVDs thanks. ;)

Thrik 03-27-2007 08:04 PM

I don't really support any per se, but I'm putting my money on Blu-Ray coming out on top due to its backers, its relatively intriguing name, and also its superior storage capacity.

Commander Obi-Wan 03-27-2007 08:21 PM

I like just the plain ol' DVDs, but I'm kinda of leaning towards HD-DVDs, but Blu-Ray is also looking quite strong.

swphreak 03-27-2007 08:54 PM

I like my DVDs. They're starting to get cheaper, and I already have DVD Players ;)

I'm waiting til one or the other croaks before I even pick a side, and even then, it'll be awhile before the price drops. Besides, I don't even have a HDTV, so the new formats would be pointless. Am I the only one who doesn't notice a difference between HD and standard def?

Jeff 03-27-2007 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StarWarsPhreak
I'm waiting til one or the other croaks before I even pick a side, and even then, it'll be awhile before the price drops. Besides, I don't even have a HDTV, so the new formats would be pointless. Am I the only one who doesn't notice a difference between HD and standard def?

I saw a comparison video that had half the screen showing dvd quality and the other half showing blu-ray quality on a HD-tv at circuit city once. There was a very noticeable difference in the sharpness of the picture.

Joshi 03-28-2007 04:01 AM

Blu-ray has a greater potential capacity, which is basically what these things are going for anyway, so I'm hoping that one will win out (despite HD-DVD being cheaper), but it's really all about who has the better marketing team.

EDIT

I should probably just point out to all you "I prefer DVD's anyway" people, unfortunately, because of the introduction of these new high capacity formats, in a few years time DVD's are going to go the way of the VHS. It sucks really, especially for those of us with fairly large DVD collections (I'm pushing on 500 myself and God knows, I won't be attempting to replace any of them any time soon), but it'll happen.

Thrik 03-28-2007 06:05 AM

Yeah, I don't think the "I like DVDs" comments are really valid as they are inevitably going to just stop being circulated within years as Joshi said. Blu-Ray and HD-DVD offer pretty much the same leap forward that VHS to CDs offered, and CDs to DVDs; with them holding over 30GB each, that's a lot of data capacity.

As for standard definition and high definition, if you can't see the difference then you absolutely must be using a non-HD television or perhaps just a small television. Imagine opening a video file on your computer that fills about a quarter of the screen, then imagine opening one that's the size of the whole screen; clearly, the larger one is going to look infinitely better in full-screen on larger monitors than the smaller one. However, if you were to play them both on a small monitor you'd likely notice little difference.

There's also the fact that LCD and Plasma televisions have much sharper images than unavoidably blurry CRTs, which means that suddenly any flaws in the standard-definition quality are suddenly really obvious. For a quick example, try opening a small video file on your computer and then making it full-screen; that's pretty much what happens to a standard-definition video when displayed on a HD screen, due to its much higher resolution than a traditional TV.

Despite all the marketing bullpoo, all HD content is is a less-shrunken video file -- the quality improvement speaks for itself. What confuses people is needing different TVs and stuff, and them only supporting certain resolutions ("780i, 780p, 1080i, 1080p?!"), etc.

Joshi 03-28-2007 06:24 AM

I believe there are players on the market at the moment that can play DVD, Blu-Ray and HD-DVD, (all of which use different lasers, which is why such integration is hard to do and thus it will be more expensive), so your old DVD's won't be obsolete, but as Thrik said, in a few years, distributors will stop making them (much like many media shops such as HMV, Virgin or the media shop of your choice in your area who no longer sell VHS) and shops will stop selling them so you'll be forced to upgrade.

The nice thing about BluRay is that 30Gb's is the standard size, but with dual layer, as well as double sided discs, I think it's been theorized to be able to reach something like 80GB's or more. HD-DVD can do similar, but not quite as high capacity, but then the Discs and Players (and recorders) will be cheaper.

This links in to what Thrik said about high-def. Basically, even with the current capacity of a standard DVD, the movie needs a basic form of compression (and a very decent CPU). But with a higher capacity on the disc, you have more room to have higher resolution picture (and with 30 frames a second, that will take up a lot of room for a decent 2 hour movie) and much better clearer sound, with the possibility of extra channels if you were so inclined to have any more than 7 speakers in your room, (what better reason to never visit the cinema again when movie execs are in talks about Movies coming out in the cinema and on DVD/Blu-ray/HD-DVD simultaneously)

Even still, at the moment, they're way too expensive for most people to be thinking about on a large scale, only very well off mediaphiles will be interested (or someone who's stupid with money, one might argue there's no difference, I can certainly see a venn diagram emerging), but likely, in a few years the price will plummet as it did with the DVD player, the first one I ever bought being around 160 (mind you, it was a pretty decent player, but a player it was only) and the latest one I've bought running in around 30 (and that was over two years ago). HD-DVD players and Blu-Ray players will be sure to follow suite.

Thrik 03-28-2007 06:38 AM

Of course if you are going to buy a Blu-Ray player at this point, you'd probably be best off going with a PlayStation 3 as you get quite a lot extra for about two-thirds of the price. ;) Not sure how it technically compares with a dedicated Blu-Ray player, but it can't be far off.

Joshi 03-28-2007 06:44 AM

Heh, very true. not only will you be getting a Blu-Ray player, you'll be getting a whole new generation of computer chips and (if some decent developer sees fit) some really nice looking games to keep the processors busy.

Buy a Hi-Def TV, a decent speaker set up, nice relaxing chair, your choice of food and drink, a mini fridge... oh dear, my movie obsession is kicking in again.

Negative Sun 03-28-2007 09:44 AM

I just hope they get rid of that ridiculous region format, the PS2 was really bad when it came to that, mine would only accept region 2 DVDs and not even all of them...I'm leaning more towards HD-DVDs now (Even though Blu-Ray sounds cooler), so that's where my vote went to, whether it's gonna win the HD format battle, I'm not too sure...I think a lot of it depends on how well the PS3 will do, so we'll have to wait and see.

On the other hand, buying either right now might give you an edge, because if you have items of the losing format, it might be worth a lot of money after a few decades in you attic ;)

Joshi 03-28-2007 10:00 AM

I doubt it, Beta-max videos aren't exactly worth a lot these days, and they were superior to VHS. I don't see the losing format here being any different.

As for region codes, those were put in place so the movie industry could release DVD's at different times in different regions and it'd be more difficult for someone to, say, import a DVD from The States and watch it on their DVD player at home, before it was officially released there (if you're watching a movie at home while it's out in the cinema, they're losing vast amounts of money). They had almost the exact same process in place for Videos (PAL and NTSC).

I wouldn't be at all surprised if this stayed in place for Blu-ray/HD-DVD, even though more DVD's these days are being released around the world simultaneously (due to simultaneous cinema releases) getting them shipped from the States is actually cheaper than buying them in, say, the UK (UK DVD's tend to retail at roughly twice the value of US DVD's, largely because of currency conversion, and largely because we have a stupidly expensive economy, but that's all politics, fact is, even with shipping you're making a saving).

I'd say region codes are here to stay.

swphreak 03-28-2007 10:08 AM

The DVDs may go away, but seeing as how many there are out there, I don't expect them to disappear within a year or two. Amazon lists HD-DVD/Blu-Ray discs at $35 and up, while I can get DVDs for about $20 or less. The main selling point for me is obviously price. Maybe in a few years, when one of the formats go the way of the LaserDisc, and reigns supreme, I'll start buying. Til then, I'll stick with DVDs. The first DVD player I bought cost me about 70 bucks, and it plays everything (DVD, VCD, MP3, ect).

Joshi 03-28-2007 10:14 AM

No, a year or two is way too short a time, both hi-def formats have only really been available for a few months at the moment, but think of how long it took for DVD's to replace VHS and you'll have yourself a decent time frame ($35 for a DVD was pretty much a standard price back when they were first introduced).

Like I said, I'm not looking to buy any until both the movies and the players come way down in price. At the moment I'm personally backing Blu-Ray for the reasons I stated above as well as the fact that it's been developed by Sony, and frankly, they need a win after the whole Betamax fiasco.

EDIT
Oh ello? Blu ray has new Region Codes if anyones interested. HD DVD has no such region coding at the moment. ;)

Negative Sun 03-28-2007 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshi
I doubt it, Beta-max videos aren't exactly worth a lot these days, and they were superior to VHS. I don't see the losing format here being any different.

As for region codes, those were put in place so the movie industry could release DVD's at different times in different regions and it'd be more difficult for someone to, say, import a DVD from The States and watch it on their DVD player at home, before it was officially released there (if you're watching a movie at home while it's out in the cinema, they're losing vast amounts of money). They had almost the exact same process in place for Videos (PAL and NTSC).

I wouldn't be at all surprised if this stayed in place for Blu-ray/HD-DVD, even though more DVD's these days are being released around the world simultaneously (due to simultaneous cinema releases) getting them shipped from the States is actually cheaper than buying them in, say, the UK (UK DVD's tend to retail at roughly twice the value of US DVD's, largely because of currency conversion, and largely because we have a stupidly expensive economy, but that's all politics, fact is, even with shipping you're making a saving).

I'd say region codes are here to stay.

I know why region codes are around, I just don't like them...

Joshi 03-28-2007 11:24 AM

You said you hoped they'd get rid of region codes. I was just explaining why they wouldn't. :)

Negative Sun 03-28-2007 11:25 AM

I also hope I'm gonna get rich soon, I can explain why that ain't gonna happen either ;)

Joshi 03-28-2007 11:29 AM

That's not a hope, that's a wish. Hope suggests it might happen, like "I hope it doesn't rain tomorrow" whereas a wish would be something like "I wish i won the lottery."

I simply mistook your claim for the former. ;)

Titanius Anglesmith 03-28-2007 11:38 AM

As of now, I like my DVDs just the way they are. Once they all finally die, I'll probably start looking in to Blu-ray. I doubt I'll be replacing every one of them, but I'll give it a whirl.

And Blu-ray sounds cooler and is much easier to say than HD-DVD. ;)

Negative Sun 03-28-2007 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshi
That's not a hope, that's a wish. Hope suggests it might happen, like "I hope it doesn't rain tomorrow" whereas a wish would be something like "I wish i won the lottery."

I simply mistook your claim for the former. ;)

It's ok, I just didn't want you to think I was some dumb*** who didn't know what region formats were for ;)

Thrik 03-28-2007 11:49 AM

It's worth bearing in mind that your older films and such aren't particularly relevant; you can make your own call about whether or not you'll replace your favourites for the new high-definition versions (which I'm sure will eventually be replaced by even higher definition versions).

The real relevance of this discussion is of course about the future. They're not going to keep making games on DVDs indefinitely; I don't about the US, but here in the UK it's almost impossible to find a new game that's on CDs rather than a DVD, and it's been like this for at least two years.

The same will eventually become true of Blu-Ray or HD-DVD, at which point you need to decide: do you pay a load for both players so you can enjoy all games/films on the market, or do you stick with one and miss out? And since the prices of the players (and discs) are dictated by supply and demand, the early adopters of the technology that ultimately loses (and paid a load for it) will get burnt.

It's a ****ty situation, but it happened before with the whole VHS/Betamax thing. Whatever the case, some technology is going to become dominant and unless an affordable player that can read them all comes out (since a Blu-Ray player is 600+, unlikely) we're going to have the make the choice at some point whether we care about the quality/capacity or not.

That or just go without new films and games. :(

Negative Sun 03-28-2007 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thrik
It's worth bearing in mind that your older films and such aren't particularly relevant; you can make your own call about whether or not you'll replace your favourites for the new high-definition versions (which I'm sure will eventually be replaced by even higher definition versions).

The real relevance of this discussion is of course about the future. They're not going to keep making games on DVDs indefinitely; I don't about the US, but here in the UK it's almost impossible to find a new game that's on CDs rather than a DVD, and it's been like this for at least two years.

The same will eventually become true of Blu-Ray or HD-DVD, at which point you need to decide: do you pay a load for both players so you can enjoy all games/films on the market, or do you stick with one and miss out? And since the prices of the players (and discs) are dictated by supply and demand, the early adopters of the technology that ultimately loses (and paid a load for it) will get burnt.

It's a ****ty situation, but it happened before with the whole VHS/Betamax thing. Whatever the case, some technology is going to become dominant and unless an affordable player that can read them all comes out (since a Blu-Ray player is 600+, unlikely) we're going to have the make the choice at some point whether we care about the quality/capacity or not.

That or just go without new films and games. :(

Surely the industry will realize that having two such formats battling it out for a long time is just gonna drive customers away...hopefully, one of two things will happpen: the two will compromise and just put both formats together, which would be beneficial to all, or one will die a gruesome death, because no one is going to want two HD versions of the same movie lying around...

Commander Obi-Wan 03-28-2007 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StarWarsPhreak
Am I the only one who doesn't notice a difference between HD and standard def?

I have a High-def TV with standard cable. It's kinda of fuzzy. So, when I played my Wii on it, it was fuzzy, too. Once I bought the HD component cable for it, the picture cleared up a bit. But, when I purchased the TV they showed what it would look like with HD and without. It's much more clearer and sharper with the HD.

Though, I might just get an HDMI cable for the time being.

Joshi 03-29-2007 03:51 AM

A company (Warner Home Video) has actually come up with a hybrid of both (for just such an occasion as when a distributor wants to cater to both markets without coming up with seperate discs). Click

It works because the data layer for a blu-ray disc is closer to the surface of the disc then the data of a HD-DVD disc (0.1mm and 0.6mm respectively). I can't remember the name of the company, but what they've done is basically put the blu-ray data onto a layer that works like a two way mirror. It's reflective enough that the laser of a blu-ray player can access such data, but transparent enough that the different laser of a HD-DVD player can access the data beneath that, which will be the same information, but encoded to work with a HD-DVD player.

If more distributors dealt with their products like this (currently only Warner Home Video and Paramount support both formats) it would make things a lot easier for those of us that don't want to choose, and the format war would be won by whoever sold the most players instead of whoever sold the most discs.

Negative Sun 03-29-2007 07:20 AM

Thanks for the info Joshi, it does seem like a good solution to me, whether it will succeed is another thing...

Joshi 03-29-2007 07:37 AM

The only small problem distributors would of course have is that they'd have to record their data twice on the same disc, using two different codecs. A lot of them may find it to be a waste of time.

Negative Sun 03-29-2007 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshi
The only small problem distributors would of course have is that they'd have to record their data twice on the same disc, using two different codecs. A lot of them may find it to be a waste of time.

But then again, if the price is attractive, they will definitely sell I think...

Joshi 03-29-2007 09:27 AM

If The price is attractive. With the extra amount of work needed to record the disc, it'd probably be cheaper to just make it format specific and let the customers choose. Remember, if it costs more money to make, it'll sell at a higher price.

Negative Sun 03-29-2007 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshi
If The price is attractive. With the extra amount of work needed to record the disc, it'd probably be cheaper to just make it format specific and let the customers choose. Remember, if it costs more money to make, it'll sell at a higher price.

With good marketing, they might be able to pull it off though.

Joshi 03-29-2007 10:21 AM

It'll be the distributors choice long before it's ours, marketing won't make much difference. I guess we'll just have to wait and see on what happens.

Joshi 04-02-2007 04:03 AM

The question was which you thought will succeed/which you support.

urluckyday 04-02-2007 05:18 PM

If I had to choose between the two...HD-DVD...now that it is on the 360...it's getting easier and easier to start watching movies in true HD...and plus, the PS3 will flop (in my opinion...besides...I'm a Wii kinda person myself)...so yea...but right now...I'll stay with regular DVD...those "upconvert" players are looking nice right now too.

narfblat 04-06-2007 02:49 AM

I'm going to wait until the next advancement in storage technology wipes the walls with these snooty HD-DVD and Blue-Ray technologies. :)

I think regular DVD's are going to stick around for quite a while. VHS to DVD was a really exciting change, offering a smaller, better, and cooler looking storage medium for videos. The change from DVD to the new formats is better image on high-definition TV's. Also, the short time between DVD and the new formats leaves us wondering how soon the next improvement is going to be, so we wonder if we should upgrade yet.

Joshi 04-06-2007 09:10 AM

The problem comes when the next gen format comes along and people start saying "Well, that's very nice, but I wonder what'll come along in a couple of years and whether that would be better, I think I'll just stick with what I have now and wait" and before you know it, technology's left you in the dust.

Samurai DD 04-09-2007 05:56 PM

Neither. In this day and age, both will survive and everything will eventually run both.

Hopeully.

If not, I'm a bit bent to the HD-DVD.

urluckyday 04-09-2007 10:15 PM

I just hope that certain companies won't be supporting ONLY HD-DVD or ONLY Blu-Ray...b/c then it's just like deciding what console to buy...not to mention...splitting the market is a bad thing to do.

Joshi 04-10-2007 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by legowar
I just hope that certain companies won't be supporting ONLY HD-DVD or ONLY Blu-Ray...b/c then it's just like deciding what console to buy...not to mention...splitting the market is a bad thing to do.

They already have, most of the major distribution companies are split either backing one or the other with only a handful backing both. Which is why, until one wins out (or you have enough money to buy both players) it's best, for the time being, to stick with DVD's.

urluckyday 04-13-2007 06:50 PM

I just think that the movie industry gets further down the drain every day...stupid choices made by stupid people.

reven0123 04-14-2007 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davinq
I'm happy with normal DVDs thanks. ;)

QFE


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