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-   -   Connection between Exile and Nihilus [Possible TSL spoiler] (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=177894)

Jediphile 04-26-2007 11:25 AM

Connection between Exile and Nihilus [Possible TSL spoiler]
 
Rather than answer this in the Revan vs. Nihilus thread, I think this deserves its own thread, since I have not discussed this here or seen similar theories before.

Anyway, the main gist of my theory on Nihilus' origin goes is based in the idea that the exile is connected to Nihilus and, if my theory is correct, actually IS Nihilus. This all boils do to what exactly happened to the exile during the battle of Malachor V, when he cut his own connection to the force.

As both HK-47 (of all people) and Kreia explain during TSL, Darth Revan used the Mandalorian Wars to subvert the jedi and turn them to the dark side. By doing so he forced a choice, since the final battle was something nobody could walk away from - the jedi could either turn to the dark side or they could die, no exceptions. Save one.

The exile, and the exile alone, avoided both of these options, but only by embracing a third, that is perhaps even more terrible. The exile did not want to die, but he also denied the will of the force, which dictated that he MUST fall to the dark side, if he were to live. But the exile refused that fate so severely, that he cut all his ties to the force and left a wound behind in the the force itself.

Yet as Zez-Kai Ell tells us, such a wound does not simply go away. It remains behind, although it is empty. It is this empty that is Nihilus, IMHO. He is the dark side or dark self of the proto-exile, that the exile rejected at Malachor V. The exile has no force powers of his own - he only has access to the force through his connections with others - because Nihilus IS the very force connection that he rejected so long ago.

Nihilus is both like a rejected splinter of the exile's soul, but it is probably easier to explain it, if we compare him to an arm infected with gangrene. This infection is terminal, and in order save himself from it, the exile cuts off his "arm." In doing so, however, he shed the part of himself that had already fallen to that dark side.

This evil self "survived" by claiming the dead or near-dead body of a fallen jedi and then became Darth Nihilus (a friend or old master of the Exile would make the most sense, since the connection would be stronger). Note how Nihilus and the Exile share the ability to resist the will of the force and gain strength by draining or siphoning it from others, though that ability is said to be unique. By resisting the will of the force, the Exile simply split him/herself in two in spite of the actions that had been taken on Malachor. You might not call the Exile light side (as opposed to Nihilus being obviously dark sided), yet note how the jedi masters say that the Exile was the only jedi to ever return to face their judgment after leaving for the Mandalorian Wars. According to Revan's plans, the Exile should never have been able to do this (as per HK-47's comments about Revan 'cleaning house" on Malachor V), and yet the Exile resisted this fate.

So the Exile is not whole, which explains the wound in the force and the need to rely on force bonds to other in order to gain access to the force. The Exile's fate was to turn to the dark side, and therefore the force powers have remained with the side that became Nihilus.

Now, before you object, there are a few things you should consider, since I based this theory on just on my own wild ideas, but from clues and comments in TSL that seemed unexplained or inconclusive to me. While I like think that I'm not so arrogant as to presume that this is indeed the officially planned origin-story of Nihilus, this means that there are details to support it. These include:

The Exile is specifically connected to Nihilus because he was the only jedi to resist the corruption and perversion of the jedi that Revan staged on Malachor V:

HK-47: "That is why Revan felt that Malachor V was so important. It was intended to be a conversion tool. Assessment: When faced with a continuous series of hard-fought battles, I detected a significant statistical increase in Jedi following Revan over the Jedi Code - a compromise in principles brought about by battlefield conditions.The emotional weight of war changed Jedi morale, power, and eventually, their allegiance. Conclusion: I believe the Mandalorian Wars were to beat the Mandalorians and also to allow Revan to build the foundation of his army. But I am surprised you have not already arrived at this conclusion. Surely the loss of your troops and the Jedi who served under you at Malachor V, had a detrimental effect upon you and your ties to the Force - and I suspect, your desire to be around others ever again."

This establishes my point above about how no jedi (but the exile) could escape the choice Revan put before them: Fall to the dark side or die! That the exile did make a third choice makes him unique. No other jedi could avoid this choice, and here is the reason:

HK-47: "Observation: Master, that was the lesson of Malachor. Any Jedi involved in the systematic slaughter on such a scale cannot help but doubt and question themselves.Observation: Master, I do not believe that the Mandalorians were the true target at Malachor - I believe that the intention was to destroy the Jedi, break their will, and make them loyal to Revan.I do not know if you examined the records of the deaths on Malachor, but you cannot escape that many of the Jedi and Republic soldiers who died were not Revan's strongest supporters. Observation: I believe that Revan was "cleaning house" at Malachor V. What ones did not die became Revan's allies against the Republic."

The last bit here is particularly important, because it underscores the exile's unique situation. Kreia says it even better to the comatose LS exile after the meeting with the masters on Dantooine:

Kreia: "There is a place in the galaxy where the dark side of the Force runs strong. It is something of the Sith, but it was fueled by war. It corrupts all that walks on its surface, drowns them in the power of the dark side - it corrupts all life. And it feeds on death. Revan knew the power of such places... and the power in making them. They can be used to break the will of others... of Jedi, promising them power, and turning them to the dark side.Did you never wonder how Revan corrupted so many of the Jedi, so much of the Republic, so quickly?The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres that masked another war, a war of conversion.Culminating a final atrocity that no Jedi could walk away from... save one.And that is what I sought to understand. How one could turn away from such power, give up the Force... and still live. But I see what happened now. It is because you had no choice.It is because you were afraid."

These comments contain some revelation. Clearly the place she talks about is Malachor V, and we learn that only the Exile was able to turn away from it. Kreia has been trying to find out how that was possible, and now has discovered that it was due to fear. That fear fits rather well with the neurosis theory of what happened to separate the Exile and Nihilus - the Exile sensed a darkness within and fled from it by subconsciously cutting himself off from the Force. In that sense, this fear is what gave birth to Nihilus, and as a Yoda would tell us, fear leads to the dark side. Zez-Kai Ell also underscores the importance of force bonds. He is talking about the exile's bond with Kreia, but given that the exile has a connection to Nihilus (and I will establish that below), his comments are just as relevant - if not more so - to the connection with Nihilus.

Zez-Kai Ell: "such bonds are a connection that can be formed at moments of crisis - or in the slow understanding that grows between master and apprentice.It is most common between two beings who are sensitive to the Force. It allows the transmission of feelings, of influence. {Musing}It was something you were gifted with, as I recall, before your fall. You formed such attachments easier than most - even to those who could feel the Force only faintly. {Rueful}Even Vrook could not ignore it, which is saying something. {Frowns}That is most unusual - and unnatural. I have never heard of a bond of such strength. There were a few within the Order who knew more than I did of such bonds - but their students were few, lost in the Mandalorian Wars. It was rumored that Revan studied such bonding deeply, both through the Jedi histories and with certain teachers, before he left the Order and went to war. It was rumored that Revan studied such bonding deeply, both through the Jedi histories and with certain teachers, before he left the Order and went to war. I do not know - a bond between two living beings is not something easily broken. It not a choice... it is like breaking a feeling. Like turning away from the Force.To break a bond, your feelings would have to change, or one of you would have to die - but even then, the bond wouldn't go away, it would simply... it would simply be empty, a wound.{Becomes quieter at the end}One of you would have to die, but even then, the bond wouldn't go away, it would simply... it would simply be empty, a wound."

Kreia also notes what happened on Malachor V to turn the jedi who fought there to the dark side:

Kreia: "Many believed the Mandalorians defeated at Malachor V. But the Mandalorians taught the Jedi much through battle. And so it was that Malak, Revan, and the Jedi that followed them discovered their true natures in the Mandalorian crusade."

In the cut content of KotOR2, jedi master Vash has some comments on force wounds that are extremely interesting in the Exile/Nihilus context:

Vash: "Look within for the answer. We are each solely accountable for everything in our lives. Nothing ever happens to us unless we allow it."

This was cut, but it was intended to be in the game.

Now, I said I would establish the connection between exile and Nihilus, and it is actually simple, since the masters tell us. They don't mention Nihilus by name, since they don't know exactly what happened, but given that we know Nihilus was behind the devastation of Katarr, there is little or - in fact- no doubt at all.

Just note what the masters tell the Exile when they meet on Dantooine in KotOR2:

"The last Jedi conclave was on Katarr, a Miraluka colony. And all of Katarr was destroyed, all of the Jedi killed...Including Master Zhar... Master Vandar... A Jedi doesn't care if he dies. Everyone does, but when we fight, when we sacrifice ourselves, it is for others, for the greater good. But our presence must not endanger others. And as long as we were visible targets, we were a threat to everything around us.There was a gathering of Jedi on the planet - when we realized that something was attacking us, we resolved to meet secretly to attempt to find this threat.Then... Katarr was no more.When we felt Katarr die, there is something we felt, something we'd felt once before. An echo in the Force.We'd felt it before when you stood before us. Whatever this threat, whatever this hunger is, it is something tied to you, something you have experienced directly. This echo travels in the places where death has walked, where planets have died. Massacres fuel its power, the death of life fuels it."

Here the connection between Nihilus and the Exile becomes very clear - the masters felt the same echo in Nihilus that they had felt from the Exile years before when they exiled him. Of course, it might then be argued that this is merely a reference to the horrors of Malachor V that spawned both Nihilus and made the Exile what he has become. However, another part of the masters meeting suggests otherwise:

"The Sith are a threat, it is true. But the threat they present... it is tied to you in some way. The echo we have felt on the worlds we have walked - we have encountered it only once before, when you stood before us at your trial.We believe that somehow, you are creating this - or that the Sith have learned this technique from you."

Here is it undeniable that the Exile is directly tied to the threat the Sith represent, and since the connection is tied to the "echo" they have felt from both the Exile (when he was exiled) and Nihilus (when Katarr was destroyed), it cannot be simply due to their mutual ties to Malachor V - others were there on Malachor V (Sion and Kreia, for example, and the all the jedi who followed Revan and Malak), and yet they carry none of these echoes or powers.

GarfieldJL 04-26-2007 11:33 AM

That's an interesting theory except, for the fact the Exile managed to kill Nihilus, what happened then? Was the wound healed?

Jediphile 04-26-2007 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GarfieldJL
That's an interesting theory except, for the fact the Exile managed to kill Nihilus, what happened then? Was the wound healed?

I deliberately avoided getting into that, because it's a major point in my speculation for what we might see in KotOR3. But suffice it to say that yes, I think it did. When Nihilus tried to "drain" the exile, he achieved the opposite effect and was drained himself. Because he's the copy, and the exile is the original. In short, the exile can "absord" what he rejected, but Nihilus cannot kill exile with his powers (though he could with his lightsaber), since he's not even a copy - he's just a shadow or, to a familiar TSL term, a "dark echo" of the exile.

Nihilus is like a mental disease or a "force neurosis" of the exile. Note how the exile doesn't even know that he cut himself off from the force, but actually believes early in the game that the masters did it to him. The exile is in denial. He denied the force, and he denied what his choices had made him into on Malachor V.

My theory sprang from a discussion about the tomb visions on Malachor. Two fo those are the exile's past, so isn't it odd that neither of those are the Malachor V battle, which is THE defining moment of the exile's life and the source of his very dilemma? It's because he's still denying it at that point and so cannot confront it.

Nihilus is a "force neurosis" that the exile has denied for a decade, but since the force is involved, the manifestation of that "mental disorder" is quite powerful. Mental diseases tend to grow more problematic and become more perverted as time passes. A decade has passed. Is it any wonder that Nihilus has grown "strong"?

He's still a unreal thing, though. He's like a "force vampire" in that he has no life of his own, and so he "drains" life (force) from others (jedi) in order to continue and extent his own existence. Just as a vampire must consume blood to exist, so must Nihilus consume force to exist.

adamqd 04-26-2007 12:29 PM

Interesting

SilentScope001 04-26-2007 12:33 PM

Not exactly an argument against, but when Exile asked the Jedi Masters: "Am I responsible for Katarr?", the Jedi Masters say, "No, of course not. But something different..." Again, not an argument against, but still.

Here is my beliefs concering this:
1) This could remove any sort of mystery behind Nihilus. Some things are better left unexplained, altough this story could finally boost Nihilus' rating.
2) "Huh?"---Brand New K3 Player. You know they exist, people play K2 before they play K1 you know. Same thing here. They might get confused with all the reference to Nihilus here. Too much focus on the events in TSL would sort of make K3 pretty hard to stand alone by itself.
3) Tying into that, if K3 were to focus on the True Sith, then too much discussion about Nihilus would remove that focus on the True Sith, making the story a bit weaker. Unless, this fact would play a key role, as you had it did in your K3 storyline, which I do somewhat oppose...
4) If this turns out to be the truth, you did realize that you just spoiled the entire 'plot twist' for me? It's like telling ESB fans before they watch ROTJ, "Did you know Darth Vader would end up redeeming himself to the Light Side because he loved his son and would rather fall to the LS than have his son get hurt?" What sort of punishment you should get for that? ;)

My view is that the developers won't say anything more about Nihilus. He's gone, he's dead, forever. He existed to show the Player (not the Exile) the power of Force Bonds and how, if used for the Dark Side, can threaten the whole galaxy. There is no need. I like to know a little bit more about what Kreia meant when she said "True Sith" please.

Bee Hoon 04-26-2007 12:38 PM

Intriguing theory... Though the probable intention for the apparent cluelessness of the exile as to how s/he lost the connection to the Force was to make us players go :O I pretty much got the same impression as you, that Nihilus was connected to Malachor v as was the exile, and similarly affected. But the idea that formed in my head was that all the death there affected Nihilus similarly despite the fact that he fell. Perhaps both of them were empaths... Going off on a tangent. Don't mind me:p

Ztalker 04-26-2007 01:03 PM

Woah...actually...it sounds quit good, maybe even above plausible. :)

I just realised there's some other clear evidence as well:
If all the dialogues you just typed about the Force bonds was regarding Kreia (One of you would have to die) the Exile would have died on Malachor, since the bond he shares with Kreia is made that way. But he doesn't, assuming it was him flying the Ebon Hawk towards the Unknow Regions at the end-game.
PS: Kreia's body remains when killed!

If all those dialogues were about Nihilus, it would mean the Exile would have to die at the bridge of the Ravager. Instead, he picks up the tainted mask, and actually becomes stronger in the Force!. This supports the theory that he is actually 'bonded' with himself, hence, he doesn't die. And when Nihilus goes up in a cloud of Dark Energy, the Exile becomes stronger. Note: You can't change your alignment from this point. Does this mean the Exile is 'whole' again now Nihilus is dead?

Hmm..this theory might be woth a shot..maybe post it on Obsidian Forums? Very good thread! :D

Titanius Anglesmith 04-26-2007 01:41 PM

Wow, that actually makes a heap of sense. The only bad thing about it is because I love Nihilus for how mysterious he is, and if all this was explained, he would probably lose a lot of his current fan-base. Then again, a revelation as good as this may just be the perfect explanation to draw more people into his following.

Jediphile 04-26-2007 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ztalker
Woah...actually...it sounds quit good, maybe even above plausible. :)

I just realised there's some other clear evidence as well:
If all the dialogues you just typed about the Force bonds was regarding Kreia (One of you would have to die) the Exile would have died on Malachor, since the bond he shares with Kreia is made that way. But he doesn't, assuming it was him flying the Ebon Hawk towards the Unknow Regions at the end-game.
PS: Kreia's body remains when killed!

Quite, and it also explains something about the bond between Kreia and exile. From the beginning of the game, the bond is considered dangerous because what happens to one happens to the other. So if one died, it would be lethal to the other. At least, that is the assumption, and they take it so seriously that they decide to seek out the masters to try and remove the bond safely somehow. And when Kreia turns against the exile, she threatens to kill herself - and thereby the exile - if he does not follow her to Malachor V. And yet, as you say, he can kill Kreia in the end with no ill effect. Why? What has happened between the time Kreia made that threat and had Atris repeat it to the exile? The confrontation with Nihilus has...

IIRC, there is even game evidence of this. Throughout the game, the exile has the force bond ability as a feat with Kreia. Yet on Malachor V it seems to have suddenly disappeared from his stats...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ztalker
If all those dialogues were about Nihilus, it would mean the Exile would have to die at the bridge of the Ravager. Instead, he picks up the tainted mask, and actually becomes stronger in the Force!. This supports the theory that he is actually 'bonded' with himself, hence, he doesn't die. And when Nihilus goes up in a cloud of Dark Energy, the Exile becomes stronger. Note: You can't change your alignment from this point. Does this mean the Exile is 'whole' again now Nihilus is dead?

That would be my conclusion as well. And I also find it revealing that Nihilus dissolves in a cloud of vapour. How come? None of the other Sith Lords ever do that, so why Nihilus? Because he's a rejeted "extension" of the exile that has no ceased to exist because he has been "rejoined" with his true self.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ztalker
Hmm..this theory might be woth a shot..maybe post it on Obsidian Forums? Very good thread! :D

Thanks. And they already know about it on the Obsidian Forums. That's where I originally made my speculation more than a year ago. Sadly that thread is now deleted there...

tk102 04-26-2007 02:37 PM

Hmm... I this theory has carries a lot of weight. It has something very reminiscent of "Planescape: Torment" to it. (And compare the names of those who worked on PS:T with those who worked on TSL.) Good job on gathering the dialogs together, Jediphile, especially the portion regarding Katarr. It seems to make more sense in the context you suggest.

SilentScope001 04-26-2007 04:43 PM

I hope they have another plot-twist coming, because I agree with tk102 that it is quite likely to be true...which is exactly the reason why I dislike it. Jediphile, you just spoiled everyone. :p

GarfieldJL 04-26-2007 06:07 PM

Why would this be in KotOR 3 though, even though you may be on to something Nihilus is dead. Then there is the fact Nihilus was male and the exile is female.

Jediphile 04-26-2007 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GarfieldJL
Why would this be in KotOR 3 though, even though you may be on to something Nihilus is dead.

I think I've spoiled quite enough already, so I'll leave that bit in my plot speculation, if that's okay.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GarfieldJL
Then there is the fact Nihilus was male and the exile is female.

Canonically. But yes, they could be different genders. That's why I included this in the theory:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jediphile
This evil self "survived" by claiming the dead or near-dead body of a fallen jedi and then became Darth Nihilus (a friend or old master of the Exile would make the most sense, since the connection would be stronger).

Clearly Nihilus has his own (male) body and does not physically have a connection with the exile. If my theory is correct, the rejected "dark echo" would have to find a different body to animate and act as a host for it. Since this is all tied to the exile's force connections, it seems likely to me that this was someone close to the exile at the time.

I mean, we know the exile forms strong force bonds, and that the exile "saves" himself on Malachor V by cutting his connection to the force. So what does the rejected part of him do? It travels along those bonds...

And note something else the masters tell the exile:

"Yes... you can feel the Force, but you cannot feel yourself. You are a cipher, forming bonds, leeching the life of others, siphoning their will and dominating them. It is the teaching of these new Sith, to feed on others, on other Force Sensitives. They are symptomatic of the wound in the Force. You are a breach that must be closed. You transmit your pain, your suffering through the Force.Within you, we see something worse than merely the teachings of the Sith. What you carry may mean the death of the Force... and the death of the Jedi."

As I see it, the exile experienced the pain of everyone dying at Malachor V through his bonds. This was so intense that it made him sever himself from the force rather than endure the pain. In doing so, he also avoided falling to the dark side himself by denying his "dark echo" that later became Nihilus. But the "dark echo" is now trapped - it cannot go to the force since the exile has cut the connection, and it has been rejected by the exile himself. So it travels along the exile's force connections to someone else, and probably someone the exile was close to. On that basis, Nihilus could have been the body of the exile's old master, I would guess.

Doesn't it strike you as odd that we never ever hear in TSL who the exile's master was? It sure seemed pretty odd to me... And another thing, the exile never looks at who Nihilus actually is. He just tells Visas to. Why? Clearly Nihilus was someone who fought at Malachor V, so why doesn't the exile look? It might have been someone he knew, after all... Well, could it be because the exile already had a good idea who it was and decided not to look, perhaps on a subconscious level? It would be consistent with the exile's behaviour througout the game, I think.

Emperor Devon 04-26-2007 07:12 PM

Very interesting theory you've got there, Jediphile - it makes Nihilus seem much more spooky than most others have.

I like it, but there's a couple parts I'm not sure about, mainly Nihilus being able to achieve sentience, as Force connections by themselves aren't living things - they're more like personality traits or talents a person has than living things. How do you think that went about happening?

I'm also curious as to what you think Nihilus was doing during the time between Malachor V and TSL.

Still, this theory makes Nihilus seem much darker than the others. I love the idea of the Force imposing its will to the point of creating a monster like him, who is grotesquely trying to carry out its will, but only consuming it in the process. Very kewl!

KyleOfHarpenden 04-26-2007 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jediphile
Doesn't it strike you as odd that we never ever hear in TSL who the exile's master was? It sure seemed pretty odd to me... And another thing, the exile never looks at who Nihilus actually is. He just tells Visas to. Why? Clearly Nihilus was someone who fought at Malachor V, so why doesn't the exile look? It might have been someone he knew, after all... Well, could it be because the exile already had a good idea who it was and decided not to look, perhaps on a subconscious level? It would be consistent with the exile's behaviour througout the game, I think.

Also Visas said 'Ive heard tales of Malachore' so that must mean that Nihilus was there on Malachore but who did she hear the tales from?

Jediphile 04-26-2007 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Very interesting theory you've got there, Jediphile - it makes Nihilus seem much more spooky than most others have.

Thanks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
I like it, but there's a couple parts I'm not sure about, mainly Nihilus being able to achieve sentience, as Force connections by themselves aren't living things - they're more like personality traits or talents a person has than living things. How do you think that went about happening?

Well, it's a combination of things, I assume. For one thing, this makes the exile like a split personality (or mutliple personality disorder), except there are only two - Nihilus and the exile. And they are not equal. Nihilus is only like 1 to 5 percent of the total - so little that the exile doesn't even realise he's "gone".

And note how Nihilus is consistently described as a primal form of life, almost devoid of intelligence.

Kreia: "There is no strength in the hunger he possesses... and the will behind his power is a primal thing. And it devours him as he devours others - his mere presence kills all around him, slowly, feeding him. He is already dead, it is simply a question of how many he kills before he falls."

But I also think this "spark of life" gained some intelligence from the body I believe it animated and used as a host for itself to exist within. Even so, Nihilus is and remains a soulless entity that reacts almost purely on instinct and not basis of logic that we can fathom.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
I'm also curious as to what you think Nihilus was doing during the time between Malachor V and TSL.

He was trapped on Malachor V, I'd say. But he found the Trayus Academy and learned many of its secrets, which I believe he, or it, used to learn how to extend his own life at the expense of the force of others.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Still, this theory makes Nihilus seem much darker than the others. I love the idea of the Force imposing its will to the point of creating a monster like him, who is grotesquely trying to carry out its will, but only consuming it in the process. Very kewl!

Yeah, I like it too. And I do point out that it is only my interpretation of what is already in the game. Maybe it's not what Avellone had in mind, but if it is, then yeah, it's pretty kewl ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by KyleOfHarpenden
Also Visas said 'Ive heard tales of Malachore' so that must mean that Nihilus was there on Malachore but who did she hear the tales from?

In fact, we know that he was on Malachor:

[Description of the Nihilus Mask] "You have taken this trophy from the remains of Darth Nihilus - it is the last surviving piece of the beast who died and was reborn in the shattered world of Malachor V. By taking it from him, you have gained a stronger tie to the Force."

To my knowledge, this is actually the only time that Nihilus' name is ever used in the game.

As for Visas, if she didn't hear about it from Nihilus himself, then she probably heard a lot about it from all the jedi on Katarr. They might not have been there, but they sure have heard of it, I'd say.

DeadYorick 04-26-2007 08:21 PM

Nihilus was always the most mysterious character in KOTOR 2. So I would say you have a very well researched concept. Lets hope we see more of Nihilus and maybe even a nihilus robe in KOTOR 3.

(Keeps fingers crossed)

The Architect 04-27-2007 12:50 AM

Jediphile already knows what I think of the theory. It’s awesome!

Hey, what if you’re the reason why KotOR III may not be made, or may not be a follow up of TSL if it’s made?!?

I know that Avellone said he had a KotOR III plot in mind when he was writing TSL, because he told me when I asked him via email. Now, I’ve read your KotOR III plot suggestion, and you see, I think the KotOR III plot Avellone has in mind isn’t too different than your own KotOR III plot suggestion.

Maybe one of the developers at Obsidian read your theory about Darth Nihilus being a dark manifestation of the Exile, and your other theory of Revan orchestrating and fighting in a civil war amongst the True Sith in the unknown regions.

Perhaps that’s what Obsidian and LucasArts are in talks about. They could be accused of plagiarizing. They want to do a story about the True Sith and so on, but now they have to come up with a different story, since their two main ideas have been exposed by you.

If they used the civil war idea and the Nihilus idea in KotOR III, then those who’ve read the two ideas aren’t going to be surprised. Perhaps you’ve caused the delay, because Obsidian’s been forced to come up with a new story.

:lol:

Just joking. Well you never know, that could be the reason.

I mean, they could still use the civil war idea and the Nihilus idea in KotOR III. If no spoilers are leaked prior to the games release, there will be no problem. We don’t know what’s going to happen in the plot the first time we play KotOR III, unless the developers are as unsubtle as BioWare were with KotOR in my opinion.

All Obsidian has to do is somehow give us who’ve read the civil war idea and the Nihilus idea the illusion that they’re not using those ideas in the game… when in actual fact they are.

They can’t really be subtle about the Nihilus idea though; since there are many clues (as Jediphile has pointed out in his rambling) in TSL. In fact… yeah good luck trying to cover up both plot twists Obsidian, if you decide to use them.

All this of course, is based on the assumption that KotOR III will be made, it will be made by Obsidian and it will be a follow up of TSL.

tk102 04-27-2007 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Architect
JMaybe one of the developers at Obsidian read your theory about Darth Nihilus being a dark manifestation of the Exile, and your other theory of Revan orchestrating and fighting in a civil war amongst the True Sith in the unknown regions.

Perhaps that’s what Obsidian and LucasArts are in talks about. They could be accused of plagiarizing. They want to do a story about the True Sith and so on, but now they have to come up with a different story, since their two main ideas have been exposed by you.

Now I have a theory for KotOR 3...

It is revealed that Jediphile is really Revan and is inciting a civil war amongst the True Sith -- Obsidian and LucasArts.

GarfieldJL 04-27-2007 08:07 AM

I just noticed another problem with this theory and it kinda debunks the theory entirely. Darth Nihilus was one of Kreia's students/partners in the triumverant until Sion and Nihilus decided to overthrow her.


Furthermore, Kreia states that, "He if he can truely be called a man any longer..." This implies she knows whom Nihilus was before he became Nihilus.

So I don't think Nihilus is part of the exile.

My theory is he is one of the Jedi at Malachor V, when the Mass Shadow Generator activated, Nihilus was practically at ground zero and he survived by taking in the life energy of everyone else that died, at a terrible price becoming like a vampire, needing to literally feed off the life force of others to survive.

Jediphile 04-27-2007 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tk102
Now I have a theory for KotOR 3...

It is revealed that Jediphile is really Revan and is inciting a civil war amongst the True Sith -- Obsidian and LucasArts.

:lol:

Hmm, actually you're not the first to compare me to Revan... Not sure about that :eek:

Quote:

Originally Posted by GarfieldJL
I just noticed another problem with this theory and it kinda debunks the theory entirely. Darth Nihilus was one of Kreia's students/partners in the triumverant until Sion and Nihilus decided to overthrow her.

Furthermore, Kreia states that, "He if he can truely be called a man any longer..." This implies she knows whom Nihilus was before he became Nihilus.

So I don't think Nihilus is part of the exile.


She says that, but bear in mind the situation. For one thing, I'm very uncertain of just how much Kreia knows about all this. I've always found it highly convenient how she ended up on the Ebon Hawk in the first place, JUST in time to help the exile escape death at Sion's hands. If that had happened, then she could never have gotten her revenge against Nihilus.

Anyway, Nihilus is a man, yes. I mean, he is physically a man. Nobody questions that. The problem is what else he is, because he is no common man or even a common jedi/sith. And there IS a connection between the exile and Nihilus, because of the comments the masters make about experiencing the same thing from them and believing the exile is responsible for Nihilus. Even if my theory is wrong, there is no escaping that connection.

Since you bring up this Kreia quote, which I agree is significant, let's explore all of it:

Kreia: "He... if he can truly be called a man any longer... is one of the dark lords that pursues you. I do not think he knows what you are, not yet. He spared the Miraluka, and that may have been the last shred of feeling that exists within him. Keep his slave close to you. I suspect there was a reason he spared her... and perhaps a reason that she survived when the rest of her people and the Jedi did not. Perhaps he is bound to her... as I am bound to you. If so, there may be a death served by hers. It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves... it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes.It cannot be taught... it can only be gained through instinct, through experiencing its effects, first-hand.{Quietly}Yes. And he fed upon its destruction - it will sustain him, for a time.Because it is not something that can ever truly be controlled... and it leaves nothing to conquer in its wake.And it rules him, not the other way around. It has its own will, its own instincts.{Chiding}Power? Do you think so?{Shakes head}You would be wrong. There is no strength in the hunger he possesses... and the will behind his power is a primal thing. And it devours him as he devours others - his mere presence kills all around him, slowly, feeding him. He is already dead, it is simply a question of how many he kills before he falls.Nothing is impossible with the Force. It is an energy that flows through all living things. And like energy, it may be harnessed, channeled, and consumed at times. It may even be a substance that can burn and ignite.Do not think of his power as one would a weapon, or one of your warships of the Republic. It is terrible, but it is still a subtle thing. The sect of assassins that chase you feed on the Force... what he does is simply the pinnacle of what they could achieve, in time. And that is why they - and their techniques - must be wiped out. No one again must experience and learn what her master did.As much as one may use the Force to bolster the wills and strengths of others, the reverse is possible, though not often used. Instead of sending one's will through connections in the Force, instead such connections are drawn upon, fed upon, and drained completely.Then you understand how terrible such a power is. And why it must be ended.It is an empty road to the dark side, and by traveling it, the price is death before one's time.He is a breach in the Force, capable of consuming the lives of those around him. Sometimes the touch is slow, as it is with his crew.It is not something he can direct or focus, much like hunger itself. He is more of a hole in the Force than a living thing. Force Sensitives and worlds rich in the Force draw him. The Miraluka world was one such place. That is why where the Jedi gather, Jedi will die. He will feel it, unless they mask their presence - but Katarr called out as a beacon to him, and he could not resist it.And he cares nothing for the Sith or its teachings... or the Jedi.And when the Jedi are dead, he will feed on the galaxy, the Republic, and eventually, consume the Sith as well. And when the Jedi are dead, her master will feed on the galaxy, the Republic, and eventually, consume the Sith as well. There is no future in the empty galaxy he sees."

Now, note the passages I've put in bold. They speak of Nihilus' powers. Don't they seem remarkably similar to the exile's, particularly when it comes to feeding on life through the force and even calling Nihilus a breach in the force?

But to me the most important point is the one I've underlined - take a look at it again, and then me, isn't what Kreia describe that EXACTLY what we later hear happened to the exile on Malachor V? It bears more than a mere striking resemblance, if you ask me.

Of course, you could now say that they both just experienced the same or at least very similar things. Well, no, I don't think so either. Why? Because the exile is consistently described as unique by both the masters and by Kreia - the exile alone resisted Revan's ultimatum to the jedi to either die or turn to the dark side and follow him. The exile is a wound in the force because he took neither option. If Nihilus simply died or fell to the dark side, then he would have taken one of Revan's choices and so not have the exile's powers. And yet he does that, even though he both "died" (according to the description of the Nihilus mask) and is clearly dark sided.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GarfieldJL
My theory is he is one of the Jedi at Malachor V, when the Mass Shadow Generator activated, Nihilus was practically at ground zero and he survived by taking in the life energy of everyone else that died, at a terrible price becoming like a vampire, needing to literally feed off the life force of others to survive.

In essence I agree that this is what happened. However, it does not explain two things, which are fairly important:

1. Having taken Revan's option to die, how does he end up with powers similar to the exile's, which are based on the refusal of taking either.

2. Where does Nihilus' connection with the exile then come from?

Ztalker 04-27-2007 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GarfieldJL
just noticed another problem with this theory and it kinda debunks the theory entirely. Darth Nihilus was one of Kreia's students/partners in the triumverant until Sion and Nihilus decided to overthrow her.


Furthermore, Kreia states that, "He if he can truely be called a man any longer..." This implies she knows whom Nihilus was before he became Nihilus.

So I don't think Nihilus is part of the exile.
Could be. :) But there's another way around. She also claims that the exile isn't human if I recall it coreectly..something like..."You are a being the Universe isn't ready for yet."
All those times she talks about Nihilus, it's almost like...she's feeling guilty of some sort. She doesn't hate him like she hates and manipulates Sion.
And another 'proof' of evidence: Kreia knows so much about the Exile, and how to unlock his powers. Possibly because, like you said, she trained Nihilus as well. That means she'd just have to do it all over again, the same teachings she gave to Nihilus.

And we KNOW she did, because you (The Exile) siphon powers of others through the Force, to become stronger (level up). Nihilus does the same, on planetary scale.

Furthermore, let's look at the name 'Nihilus.' It means 'nothing' right? Why not call him Darth *insert random terrifying name*? I think the 'Nihilus' part says enough :D

Angelos Kumani 04-27-2007 11:28 AM

Jediphile execellent theory, kudos!

But to remind you we know of at least one of the Exile's master...Kavar. If you remember the first meeting with Kavar on Onderon, he calls the Exile his old padawan I believe...

Jediphile 04-27-2007 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ztalker
Could be. :) But there's another way around. She also claims that the exile isn't human if I recall it coreectly..something like..."You are a being the Universe isn't ready for yet."

Which would fit with her goals of fighting the will of the force.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ztalker
All those times she talks about Nihilus, it's almost like...she's feeling guilty of some sort. She doesn't hate him like she hates and manipulates Sion.
And another 'proof' of evidence: Kreia knows so much about the Exile, and how to unlock his powers. Possibly because, like you said, she trained Nihilus as well. That means she'd just have to do it all over again, the same teachings she gave to Nihilus.

And we KNOW she did, because you (The Exile) siphon powers of others through the Force, to become stronger (level up). Nihilus does the same, on planetary scale.

Yes, and the reason seems obvious to me. She trained Nihilus, but he has a power that she doesn't possess herself - he is a wound in the force, just like the exile. I suspect Kreia "trained" him - such as she can - in the hopes of manipulating him and using him like a weapon in her war against the will of the force. But he betrayed her and cast her out, and only then did she realise what she had unleashed upon the galaxy. Kreia wants revenge against Nihilus for his betrayal, but that's not all - she NEEDS him to be stopped, because could destroy the entire galaxy, and even if Kreia hates the force, she does not what to be the cause of that. Remember, Kreia hates the force because she thinks its will is an oppressive force in the universe.

Kreia: "It is said that the Force has a will, it has a destiny for us all. I wield it, but it uses us all, and that is abhorrent to me. Because I hate the Force. I hate that it seems to have a will, that it would control us to achieve some measure of balance, when countless lives are lost.But in you... I see the potential to see the Force die, to turn away from its will. And that is what pleases me.You are beautiful to me, exile. A dead spot in the Force, an emptiness in which its will might be denied. I use it as I would use a poison, and in the hopes of understanding it, I will learn the way to kill it."

What Kreia says about the exile here, especially the marked passages, are just as true for Nihilus, I think.

So when he turned against her, she sought out the original source - the exile.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ztalker
Furthermore, let's look at the name 'Nihilus.' It means 'nothing' right? Why not call him Darth *insert random terrifying name*? I think the 'Nihilus' part says enough :D

Says quite clearly what he is, doesn't it? ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angelos Kumani
Jediphile execellent theory, kudos!

Cheers!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angelos Kumani
But to remind you we know of at least one of the Exile's master...Kavar. If you remember the first meeting with Kavar on Onderon, he calls the Exile his old padawan I believe...

He does call the exile "an old student" in a cutscene with Talia and can say these things when you talk (if LS)...

"You always had deep connections to the Force. I am glad to see that it is once again your ally. When I first sparred with you during your training as a Padawan, I could tell that you were different. And it wasn't just your strong connection to the Force.The difficulties you surmounted to get here. You must have many questions. You deserve answers.That sounds like the bond that often forms between Master and apprentice. But to that degree... ?You always did form connections to others, strong ones, even when you were a student. But what you are describing is beyond me.I'm sure others in the Jedi Council would be able to assist you. If you could find them.So you heard what we said? These questions I cannot answer. This is something the Council must answer, not I.You must understand . This is hard for me, especially after all you've done. But it is necessary.Did you know that when I was training you I considered making you my Padawan? I didn't. The demands of the Jedi Council were too great."

So Kavar sparred with the exile, but they were never master and padawan, even though Kavar did consider it.

Masgrtgr 04-27-2007 08:54 PM

I wonder why no one's mentioned Zayne Carrick yet.

Considering how similar Zayne and Exile are it would explain their connection.

SilentScope001 04-27-2007 08:56 PM

Quote:

I wonder why no one's mentioned Zayne Carrick yet.
Shhh....I want to be suprised in case that other comic book theory comes true. :)

The Architect 04-27-2007 09:10 PM

Or another theory is… Jediphile is Jim (Darth) Ward, the guy from LucasArts!

He’s made a lot of articulate pro-Obsidian/stuff you LA posts on this forum and the Obsidian forum back in the day in regards to the cut content incident most of us know all too well about… but that’s just his idea of giving us the illusion that he’s not from LA and had nothing to do with the cut content kafuffle!

Then, Obsidian is keen to make KotOR III. They have a plot in mind. Jediphile Ward has some guys “on the inside” spying on Obsidian, in an effort to find out their KotOR III plot.

Once he finds out the plot Obsidian has in mind, he joins the Obsidian forum disguised as someone who is just a fan of KotOR and TSL, who has many eloquent and interesting things to say about the games.

He then proceeds to do a KotOR III plot suggestion and post it on the Obsidian boards… which in actual fact is the plot Obsidian wanted to do! He then bribes a developer to read the plot, and tell his fellow Obsidian workers that their plot has somehow been leaked!

They can’t go ahead with the plot they had in mind, because they might get accused of plagiarizing. So when LA asks them “Are you ready to begin developing KotOR III?” Obsidian says no. They tell LA the bad news, and have to come up with a new plot again before they begin developing the game.

So KotOR III is delayed. Behind the scenes Jediphile Ward is laughing like Palpatine. You see, he doesn’t want KotOR III to be made. But instead of telling the fans straight up that KotOR III won’t be made… he wants to make the fans suffer, by making them go through years of this torment “We’re in talks with Obsidian to do KotOR III.”

In reality, every time Obsidian comes up with a new plot… it will be leaked to the public, and KotOR III will be “delayed” until the point where LA comes out… in Christmas 2013 and says “We regret to announce that KotOR III has been cancelled. It will not be made. Sorry.”

It all began back in an anonymous time in 2004, where months into the development of KotOR II: TSL, Jediphile Ward was turned to the dark side. You see, when he played KotOR for the first time sometime in 04… he heard Malak laugh, and it made him go insane, and then he became evil and… decided to break the hearts of thousands of TSL fans by deliberately cutting two months from Obsidian’s development schedule so that it would screw up the latter stages of the game.

Sound reasonable? :lol:

This is all a joke, of course. That's why there's a lol smiley.

On topic: terrific theory that is.

Master Dakari 04-28-2007 12:05 AM

Quote:

So Kavar sparred with the exile, but they were never master and padawan, even though Kavar did consider it.
Thank you for posting that, Jediphile. I was about to say the same thing.

Since Master Kavar was a Guardian Jedi Master (making him a Weapon/Warrior Master), it is feasible to consider that he might have been a lightsaber instructor at either the Jedi Enclave on Dantooine or the Jedi Temple on Coruscant. But, that's just speculation.

By the way, on topic, I absolutely love you theory. I was considering much of the same thing, but there are points that you have highlighted that I haven't thought of before... but they fit like perfect pieces to the greater puzzle. And considering the fact that many key members who worked on Planescape: Torment also worked on The Sith Lords, I have no doubt that this theory was their original intention with Darth Nihilus and our favorite heroine, the Jedi Exile.

Jediphile 04-28-2007 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Architect
Or another theory is… Jediphile is Jim (Darth) Ward, the guy from LucasArts!

He’s made a lot of articulate pro-Obsidian/stuff you LA posts on this forum and the Obsidian forum back in the day in regards to the cut content incident most of us know all too well about… but that’s just his idea of giving us the illusion that he’s not from LA and had nothing to do with the cut content kafuffle!

Given how critical I have been of LA for rushing TSL since its release, I think I present that as proof enough of my innocence. Oh, and I do deny being an employee or associated with Lucasarts in any way and form :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Architect
So KotOR III is delayed. Behind the scenes Jediphile Ward is laughing like Palpatine. You see, he doesn’t want KotOR III to be made. But instead of telling the fans straight up that KotOR III won’t be made… he wants to make the fans suffer, by making them go through years of this torment “We’re in talks with Obsidian to do KotOR III.”

In reality, every time Obsidian comes up with a new plot… it will be leaked to the public, and KotOR III will be “delayed” until the point where LA comes out… in Christmas 2013 and says “We regret to announce that KotOR III has been cancelled. It will not be made. Sorry.”

It all began back in an anonymous time in 2004, where months into the development of KotOR II: TSL, Jediphile Ward was turned to the dark side. You see, when he played KotOR for the first time sometime in 04… he heard Malak laugh, and it made him go insane, and then he became evil and… decided to break the hearts of thousands of TSL fans by deliberately cutting two months from Obsidian’s development schedule so that it would screw up the latter stages of the game.

:blush2: :( :cry7:

SilentScope001 04-28-2007 12:01 PM

Quote:

Or another theory is… Jediphile is Jim (Darth) Ward, the guy from LucasArts!

(snip)
Alternatively, he may still be on the Light Side, but promoting false theories that make a lot of sense so that people will be shocked.

I remember K2 rumors about The Exile helping Revan locate the Star Forge, hence why he was Exiled...and of Darth Nihilus actually being Vrook. Did you cause them Jediphile? ;)

Char Ell 04-28-2007 01:36 PM

I too think Jediphile's theory on the relationship between the Exile and Darth Nihilus is well-founded. I'm not too sure about the Exile's "dark essence" taking over another body though at the moment there doesn't seem to be any other viable explanation.

What I wonder about now though is whether or not LucasArts wants to continue with the theme Obsidian started on with the Exile. Looking at this from a holistic perspective the concepts of a wound in the Force and a Jedi having their dark essence split off and take over another body are new to the SW universe are they not? From things I've read it seems to me that there hasn't been a lot of thought given to the future of the KotOR franchise in the past. BioWare created the first game as a standalone without any real plans for a sequel. Obsidian took over and had to come up with a story. If LucasArts does indeed intend to make KotOR a lasting franchise then I do hope they're putting together a long-term plan for where they want to go with the series.

Darca Lar 04-28-2007 04:00 PM

What about Kreia's comments about Nihilus "no longer a man" or whatever it is she said?

Jediphile 04-28-2007 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darca Lar
What about Kreia's comments about Nihilus "no longer a man" or whatever it is she said?

What about it?

Darca Lar 04-29-2007 12:37 AM

Do you think she's saying Nihilus 'used' to be human? If so, then your whole theory is thrown into question.

Jediphile 04-29-2007 04:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darca Lar
Do you think she's saying Nihilus 'used' to be human? If so, then your whole theory is thrown into question.

Yes and no. Nihilus' body used to be human. More than that, I suspect this body may have belonged to the exile's master, because that would make for a strong force bond. Basically, when the exile's master died on Malachor V, the "dark echo" that the exile rejected went to this master and survived in his body. In a sense, it animated his body and used it as a host.

Isn't it odd that as much as the game focuses on the force bond between master and padawan, we never learn who the exile's master was before Malachor V?

Also, we know whoever Nihilus was, he was at Malachor V during that battle. Yet when he is killed, the exile tells Visas to get his mask, then asks her what she saw. Well, why doesn't the exile just look for himself? Unlike Visas, he might actually KNOW this person, since they both fought at Malachor V, so, what, he couldn't even be bothered to take a look? Why? I think it's because the exile already knew what he would see and feared it. And so he fled from the truth yet again.

Ztalker 04-29-2007 07:58 AM

"No longer man"

Of course he's no longer human..he vaporises in a cloud of dark energy, which, to my best knowledge, isn't the normal way humans die. :xp:
And, if he's connected to the Exile, like in the theory, it could be an indirect comment on the Exile her/himself, since he/she's no longer 'human' as well, like Kreia states with her 'You are unique, the Galaxy isn't ready for you yet' -speech :D

Lord Spitfire 04-29-2007 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jediphile
Yes and no. Nihilus' body used to be human. More than that, I suspect this body may have belonged to the exile's master, because that would make for a strong force bond. Basically, when the exile's master died on Malachor V, the "dark echo" that the exile rejected went to this master and survived in his body. In a sense, it animated his body and used it as a host.

Isn't it odd that as much as the game focuses on the force bond between master and padawan, we never learn who the exile's master was before Malachor V?

Also, we know whoever Nihilus was, he was at Malachor V during that battle. Yet when he is killed, the exile tells Visas to get his mask, then asks her what she saw. Well, why doesn't the exile just look for himself? Unlike Visas, he might actually KNOW this person, since they both fought at Malachor V, so, what, he couldn't even be bothered to take a look? Why? I think it's because the exile already knew what he would see and feared it. And so he fled from the truth yet again.

For the first part . . . that would be impossible, since it was confirmed in the game that Master Kavar was Exile's master.

As for the last paragraph, I agree with you. I think it would be cool (but extremely creepy) that - after Visas took Nihilus's mask off - Nihilus would get up, pull back his hood, and show the DS version of the Exile (since I agreed with everything else you said.

Ztalker 04-29-2007 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Spitfire
For the first part . . . that would be impossible, since it was confirmed in the game that Master Kavar was Exile's master.
Ehm...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jediphile
"You always had deep connections to the Force. I am glad to see that it is once again your ally. When I first sparred with you during your training as a Padawan, I could tell that you were different.
*Snipped some stuff*
Did you know that when I was training you I considered making you my Padawan? I didn't. The demands of the Jedi Council were too great."

So Kavar sparred with the exile, but they were never master and padawan, even though Kavar did consider it.
The magic of reading a thread before posting :)

Lord Spitfire 04-29-2007 09:09 AM

Kreia Immitation: Ah, yes, a strong magic indeed. ;)

But I still think that maybe Atris was the Exile's master, if not Kavar. It would explain why she would have feelings for him if he was male.

But have considered what I said about the Exile taking off Nihilus's mask and seeing a DS version of himself/herself (if LS) or just seeing himself or herself (If DS)? Man, I'm going to have nightmares with that thought!

Nihilus: ;lkasdjoiwehjr;lkdjsf;laeishtlsafj (Subtitles; Exile, I am you!)

Exile: No! It's not true!

Nihilus: dhjsafiwuerhydfhjkaesrywiuefhwlaeiryh (Subtitles: You know it is true. I am your Dark Side counterpart! Look at my face!)

Exile: *looks at Nihilus's face* AHHHHHHHHHH! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Jediphile 04-29-2007 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Spitfire
Kreia Immitation: Ah, yes, a strong magic indeed. ;)

But I still think that maybe Atris was the Exile's master, if not Kavar. It would explain why she would have feelings for him if he was male.

It's possible, I suppose. But it's never stated in the game, so it would never be more than speculation based on what we know so far, and frankly I doubt they were master and apprentice - while Atris either loves (male) or admires (female) the exile depending on gender, the exile doesn't seem to have an particular feelings towards Atris, which would be unusual for an apprentice.

Besides, Vrook mentions in the holorecorded discussion with Vandar that the exile's master refuses to discipline him/her - that sure doesn't sound much like Atris to me... ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Spitfire
But have considered what I said about the Exile taking off Nihilus's mask and seeing a DS version of himself/herself (if LS) or just seeing himself or herself (If DS)? Man, I'm going to have nightmares with that thought!

Nihilus: ;lkasdjoiwehjr;lkdjsf;laeishtlsafj (Subtitles; Exile, I am you!)

Exile: No! It's not true!

Nihilus: dhjsafiwuerhydfhjkaesrywiuefhwlaeiryh (Subtitles: You know it is true. I am your Dark Side counterpart! Look at my face!)

Exile: *looks at Nihilus's face* AHHHHHHHHHH! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

[Jediphile smiles evilly to himself...] ;)

EDIT: Oh, and thanks, Ztalker, for quoting what I said earlier, since it saves me the trouble.


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