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-   -   under whelmed by the latest trailer. Generic white guy. Big surprise there. (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=180446)

Aniki21 07-14-2007 01:06 AM

under whelmed by the latest trailer. Generic white guy. Big surprise there.
 
Here we have yet another generic white male Jedi character. They really thought outside the box there. And while Iím sure they felt their ill advised decision in the latest trailer to feature this new apprentice character taking down a ****ing star destroyer would be ďsuper coolĒ despite being ridiculously at odds with the continuity in the Star Wars universe. Apparently Darth Vaderís new apprentice a hell of a lot more powerful than himself and one of the most powerful force user of all time. This game will have to impress me with its gameplay because so far Iíve seen little to get genuinely exited about as a Star Wars fan.

Jeff 07-14-2007 01:51 AM

I don't think theres anything generic about the apprentice. He's not a traditional force user brought up as a Jedi like most are. Would it make you happy if he was black?

Any how has the gameplay not impressed you just from looking at the trailer? Some people might not like it but you have to remember the developers intentions with this game. "Kicking ass with the force."

JawaJoey 07-14-2007 02:26 AM

One thing I find funny is that both taking down a star destroyer and the look of the main character have already been known for a while, but apparently the trailer makes it matter. (granted, the Star Destroyer thing was concept art, and not necessarily going to be in game. That pic is my background btw, so awesome.)

About his appearance: What were you expecting? Yoda's black nephew? Face it pal, most people in SW are generic white guys. That's just the way it goes in Star Wars. Go ahead and complain, but complain about the franchise. Also, please realize that character is not defined by race or appearance. Try giving the person a chance, and find out about the story before you criticize him for his appearance, racist.

EDIT: That sounded ruder than I intended and I apologize. That was meant in a light-hearted way. Just trying to get a rise out of you.

About his power: FYI, that's the point. There would be no game if Force Powers weren't over the top. I can understand you being unsettled by it though, but realize that there are explanations. The over the top power in physical manipulation, that's what makes the secret apprentice special. Vader wouldn't pick Mr. Bob Von-Everyjedi to be his secret apprentice. Also, he was presumably chosen early and kept very captive and secretly by Vader. He was abused and controlled. The character has no social understanding of the world. Vader conditioned him to not be a threat to him, not for a long while, at least.

Reclaimer 07-14-2007 03:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth Moeller
I don't think theres anything generic about the apprentice. He's not a traditional force user brought up as a Jedi like most are. Would it make you happy if he was black?

Any how has the gameplay not impressed you just from looking at the trailer? Some people might not like it but you have to remember the developers intentions with this game. "Kicking ass with the force."

Maybe there could be an option for white male/female and black male/female? It could help bring balance to the game with more options than just one character.

Just an idea.

Jeff 07-14-2007 11:37 AM

Maybe in an RPG that would be an option but it would be out of place in this kind of game IMO.

Commander Obi-Wan 07-14-2007 11:39 AM

Yeah. In KotOR you have to option to choose you face.

I don't really see it as a problem. And I don't really think others really care if it's white or not. It's just a character.

PoiuyWired 07-14-2007 12:35 PM

Well yeah, but kotor is an RPG. This is the storyline about a named character, of which most of his storyline would be railroaded, including lady Eclipse, his homegirl. Judging from hoe GL does things, there is little chance he would allow some sweet lesbian love...

That, and being a "white guy" or not is the least of the worry in the galaxy far far away. I mean, we don't even know if he is pure human or not... he could well have some arkanian blood in him and what not. Obviously, if you ask me I would prefer him to be a near human instead of a human, a male Zeltron would be nice. Well, I know it is quite impossable for it to be some exortic species given the humancentric empire approach, and also we know that some species are usually not allowed as a main character.

For the darklord has Banned any wookiee from having the force ever(lowie being the only exception) under the pain of a slow unenjoyable death by dismemberment to its creators and associates, probably carried out by GL himself even.

I mean, it would be fun to play as a squib(for real), or even gizka in some game, but to the non-fans they would just yell "wtf is this thing?"

shadowtrooper69 07-14-2007 12:48 PM

LOL gizka, i wonder what kind force powers it'd have: force jump, force croak, and force breed. lol

Jeff 07-14-2007 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PoiuyWired
Well, I know it is quite impossable for it to be some exortic species given the humancentric empire approach, and also we know that some species are usually not allowed as a main character.

I'm even surprised that there is the female fighter pilot Juno Eclipse. I failed to see any women in the empire's ranks in the movies.

stoffe 07-14-2007 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth Moeller
I'm even surprised that there is the female fighter pilot Juno Eclipse. I failed to see any women in the empire's ranks in the movies.

Given that there is rumored to be a romance, and the general feelings towards homosexuality in the US, I don't think it's that surprising. :p

kotorfan84 07-14-2007 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JawaJoey
About his power: FYI, that's the point. There would be no game if Force Powers weren't over the top. I can understand you being unsettled by it though, but realize that there are explanations. The over the top power in physical manipulation, that's what makes the secret apprentice special. Vader wouldn't pick Mr. Bob Von-Everyjedi to be his secret apprentice.

I'm pretty sure Yoda, or Obi-Wan could've pulled the ship down as well. Whether you think it's possible for that ship to fly in atmosphere or not, it probably had no buisness there, b/c of it's size, so once the nose was pulled down, it was doomed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JawaJoey
Also, he was presumably chosen early and kept very captive and secretly by Vader. He was abused and controlled. The character has no social understanding of the world. Vader conditioned him to not be a threat to him, not for a long while, at least.

Exactly. This is what Sidious did with Darth Maul, so it's certainly possible for him to have years of Sith training, and not be some prodigy.

TKA-001 07-14-2007 03:59 PM

Quote:

I'm even surprised that there is the female fighter pilot Juno Eclipse. I failed to see any women in the empire's ranks in the movies
That's because the Empire had some kind of anti-female thing going for most of it's existance. They're also very anti-nonhuman.

Jeff 07-14-2007 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stoffe
Given that there is rumored to be a romance, and the general feelings towards homosexuality in the US, I don't think it's that surprising. :p

Well I know the reason shes in the game is because of the romance plot, but it goes against what we're used to seeing in the Empire. Thats the point I was trying to make.
Quote:

Originally Posted by TKA-001
That's because the Empire had some kind of anti-female thing going for most of it's existance. They're also very anti-nonhuman.

I know, hence why I said I was surprised.

stoffe 07-14-2007 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth Moeller
Well I know the reason shes in the game is because of the romance plot, but it goes against what we're used to seeing in the Empire. Thats the point I was trying to make.

Well, as far as I am aware there are a few female admirals and other high-ups in various EU stories, some leading one faction or another of the Empire after Palpatine's death. So though they are few and far in between it's not unheard of. :)

Maphisto86 07-14-2007 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stoffe
Well, as far as I am aware there are a few female admirals and other high-ups in various EU stories, some leading one faction or another of the Empire after Palpatine's death. So though they are few and far in between it's not unheard of. :)

Exactly, Im willing to bet there where a few female Imperials. It's not out of the realm of possibility considering the EU. Mentioning that, the original trilogy made no specific reference to such bias within the Empire despite the lack of women shown in it's ranks but then again there where no black Imperials either... What Im trying to say is.... all these things are not out of the realm of possibility. Besides, the makers of the game where going to George Lucas himself for all the storyline work.

Anyway, as for "yet another generic white guy" as the protagonist, I geuss it is a bit tiresome but as JawaJoey said earlier there is more to a character then race or appearance (granted, I would not be happy if he was completely hunchbacked, no offense to hunchbacked people :animelol: ). I mean I wouldn't care if he was black or white or asian in appearance. We have yet to see much of this protagonist other than minor bits of information, his profeciency with the Force and such.

Also I have been defending the powerful Force powers for awhile now. It is referenced constantly in the original trilogy that what we see in those films (heck even in the prequels) are the tip of the iceberg. Im sure if they wanted to someone like Palpatine or Yoda or Darth Vader (pre injury perhaps) could take down a star destroyer like that. Actually Im more surprised at the retcon that a Imperial class star destroyer can fly in an atmosphere when previous EU material says it cannot. Not that I object....

Aniki21 07-14-2007 06:59 PM

I find it quite hilarious that several of you who are pleased that 99% of playable Star Wars heroes fit the same basic description just assumed I was black. Of course if I was Asian or Hispanic I would be delighted to be forced to play a white character 99% of the time. :rolleyes:

Jeff 07-14-2007 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stoffe
Well, as far as I am aware there are a few female admirals and other high-ups in various EU stories, some leading one faction or another of the Empire after Palpatine's death. So though they are few and far in between it's not unheard of. :)

Oh ok, I was never a big sw novel reader so I didn't even think about EU possibilities.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Aniki21
I find it quite hilarious that several of you who are pleased that 99% of playable Star Wars heroes fit the same basic description just assumed I was black. Of course if I was Asian or Hispanic I would be delighted to be forced to play a white character 99% of the time. :rolleyes:

Just to clarify, I wasn't insinuating you were black, I was just using that as an example as a race other than white.

Ctrl Alt Del 07-14-2007 09:45 PM

Perhaps, even if it's highly unlikely, the apprentice appearance is subject to change. I don't see anything wrong with that even if the maxim is true, about the white heroes. Oh, the whole "bringing down the ISD with force powers" really seems unbalanced, but not much more than the Clone Wars cartoons and, besides, as Darth Moeller said, it was their intention all along to maximize the Force powers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stoffe
Given that there is rumored to be a romance, and the general feelings towards homosexuality in the US, I don't think it's that surprising. :p

Well, the fact of there having a close female to the hero isn't surprising. Even her outstanding records (becoming the younger imperial ever to apply and become an official is no small feat, as well as leading a elite squadron) aren't just as surprising as the fact that she wears her uniforms... at ease. Well, on her picture at LA, it looks like she isn't following regular dressing patterns for imperials. Typical, I love that :D.

Jeff 07-14-2007 10:54 PM

The Apprentice's looks are based on his voice actor Sam Witwer so his appearance isn't going to change.

Keshin 07-15-2007 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aniki21
I find it quite hilarious that several of you who are pleased that 99% of playable Star Wars heroes fit the same basic description just assumed I was black. Of course if I was Asian or Hispanic I would be delighted to be forced to play a white character 99% of the time. :rolleyes:

...does that really matter to you? Personally I don't see what the problem is. Unless your so fixed up on race and color.

But thinking about the movies, Star Wars has always been this way. The Empire is full of white British type guys. And thinking about the situation (being Darth Vaders apprentice) whats the apprentices history? I dont know, but it just seems natural that he would be brought up amongst an Empire presence and society. So him being white would be the norm I think.

If he were black, asian, hispanic or whatever, it really wouldn't bother me in the slightest. In the end the character is still going to be doing the same things, having the same personality and being involved with the same people (the rumored girl, romance thing.) So its not like anything is different or would have changed.

Maphisto86 07-15-2007 01:49 AM

Once again, Im going to defend the issue many fans have taken with "bringing down a star destroyer with the Force". At first glance it looks unbalanced sure.... we have never seen this happen. When I first saw the concept art of the apprentice bringing down a star destroyer I truly thought "I hope they don't do this". That was my first reaction... of course we do not want to see Darth Vader or Yoda or Palpatine outdone by a video game character. However when I thought about it, this is well within the realm of any force user. I was inspired from only a few words Yoda spoke in The Empire Strikes Back, where he says:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoda
"Size matter's not. The only difference is in your mind..." :yodaball:

So if a person who was knowledgeable of the Force and cleared their mind of doubt then they could pull something like that off. Not to mention the fact that we are not aware of the situation in which this occurs. According to numerous sources, this game's storyline is set within a number of years rather than days or months.

So I get the feeling that as the player of this game beats more levels, the more powerful your force powers will become. Also we see throughout the films that anger and hatred seem to intensify the power of the force within someone, at least for awhile. Notable examples of this are Obi-Wan's final battle with Darth Maul after he killed his master in The Phantom Menace, or in Return of the Jedi, where Luke goes beserk on Vader, after his father threatens to turn Leia to the dark side. Perhaps our protagonist here has become focused enough through his passion to achieve what most Jedi/Sith cannot.

Besides this isin't no ordinary force user... but the first (and possibly last) apprentice of Darth Vader, a Dark Lord of the Sith . And from what we know it seems Vader is breaking the "rule of two" by taking on his own apprentice, not someone like Asajj Ventress was for Count Dooku, but an actual apprentice to train using the secret knowledge of the Sith. This would give him power no ordinary "Dark Jedi" would have.

Whew.... sorry for the novel but that's my case. :3pdance:

P.S.
Quote:

Originally Posted by DarthMoeller
The Apprentice's looks are based on his voice actor Sam Witwer so his appearance isn't going to change.

Hey it is! I knew he was doing the voice of the character but I didn't realize they used his appearance as well... Didn't even occur to me despite seeing his face in the new trailer. Good eye! :D

Keshin 07-15-2007 02:30 AM

I don't see what the big deal is over him bringing down the Star Destroyer. I definitely don't think you need to justify it by pulling lines from the movies.

I mean yes, I'm a fan of the movies and the original characters (I don't want to see them messed with etc), but its a video game at the end of the day. Which sole purpose is to focus on over-the-top force powers.

If George Lucas came out and said "This character existed in the official Star Wars movies universe" than I'd raise a bit of concern. But its not this way.

I think people here are looking into it too much.

Jeff 07-15-2007 08:39 AM

Well, the character is official canon and the game is the official next chapter in the sw saga, but I think we can still say that the force powers wouldn't belong in a movie.

TKA-001 07-15-2007 09:51 AM

One man against the world
 
Quote:

When I first saw the concept art of the apprentice bringing down a star destroyer I truly thought "I hope they don't do this".
I thought it was just art of a Star Destroyer crashing in a city somewhere. It made more sense to me.

Quote:

So if a person who was knowledgeable of the Force and cleared their mind of doubt then they could pull something like that off. Not to mention the fact that we are not aware of the situation in which this occurs. According to numerous sources, this game's storyline is set within a number of years rather than days or months.
So you're telling me that anyone who knew how to use telekenisis could do that if they thought they can? That how strong or well-trained someone is in the force has next to nothing to do with what limits their power?

Quote:

So I get the feeling that as the player of this game beats more levels, the more powerful your force powers will become. Also we see throughout the films that anger and hatred seem to intensify the power of the force within someone, at least for awhile. Notable examples of this are Obi-Wan's final battle with Darth Maul after he killed his master in The Phantom Menace, or in Return of the Jedi, where Luke goes beserk on Vader, after his father threatens to turn Leia to the dark side. Perhaps our protagonist here has become focused enough through his passion to achieve what most Jedi/Sith cannot.
There's a difference between that and flinging a several billion-ton object around.

Quote:

Besides this isin't no ordinary force user... but the first (and possibly last) apprentice of Darth Vader, a Dark Lord of the Sith . And from what we know it seems Vader is breaking the "rule of two" by taking on his own apprentice, not someone like Asajj Ventress was for Count Dooku, but an actual apprentice to train using the secret knowledge of the Sith. This would give him power no ordinary "Dark Jedi" would have.
Vader was severely weakened while in the suit, and he wouldn't know any techniques that Palpatine didn't know, and Palpatine certainly wouldn't tell him anything that could make Vader think that he was stronger than his master. On top of that, this guy is an apprentice. And an apprentice doing something that not even Yoda could do is rediculous. Fortunately, as of now that Star Destroyer business isn't a canonical event, but just something in the trailer. Hopefully, it'll stay that way.

Maphisto86 07-15-2007 03:06 PM

"You don't know the power of the dark side..."
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Keshin
I don't see what the big deal is over him bringing down the Star Destroyer. I definitely don't think you need to justify it by pulling lines from the movies.

I mean yes, I'm a fan of the movies and the original characters (I don't want to see them messed with etc), but its a video game at the end of the day. Which sole purpose is to focus on over-the-top force powers.

If George Lucas came out and said "This character existed in the official Star Wars movies universe" than I'd raise a bit of concern. But its not this way.

I think people here are looking into it too much.

Well it's apparentley more than just a video game, it's going to become part of the EU canon so according to Lucasfilm this happened in the actual story. This is a multimedia project that will include all this with other books and present it as part of the larger Star Wars saga.

Apparentley I do have to pull lines from the movie to defend the pure awesomness that is the Force. Im not an obsessive Star Wars fan and Im not going to get into an argument or anything. I just like to point out to the hundreds who will deride the use of the Force in this game that the source material for Star Wars (the films and for the prequel hatemongers, the original trilogy) supports what we are seeing. After this post I rest my case...
I respect the point of view of people like TKA here but I think it is healthy to debate things without getting personal. :cheers:

Quote:

Originally Posted by TKA 001
So you're telling me that anyone who knew how to use telekenisis could do that if they thought they can? That how strong or well-trained someone is in the force has next to nothing to do with what limits their power?

Yup :yoda3

Okay it's probably not as easy as the little train that could scenario of "I think I can, I think I can." It's more like "I KNOW I can". It would take a lot of phsycological training to overcome the urge to think "It's too heavy" or "It's impossible..." which is why it is rare for such a feat like pulling a warship to the ground to be possible for a Jedi/Sith though Im sure a wisened master with experience like Yoda could do it. So it matter how well trained they are...

Aniki21 07-16-2007 03:58 PM

Clearly the over the top force powers display was meant to hype casual Star Wars fans so they would go COOOOOL! However people who are more familiar with the films are likely to be more appreciative of the ridiculousness of the demonstration. Iím not sure if this or the fact that every single principle Jedi character ever has been white. Would it be so hard for white developers and fans to accept a non white Jedi main character or is that too much to ask?

Jeff 07-16-2007 04:02 PM

http://i7.tinypic.com/4tyywzp.jpg

Not to mention the numerous alien Jedi, who are, in fact, not white.

Lynk Former 07-16-2007 04:15 PM

*sighs* Aniki, I know where you're coming from but man, get over yourself. Yeah, most of the time you see white guy after white guy in a videogame... but then if he is a "black" guy he's always African American, as if there's no other kind of darked skinned person in existence.

See, now I have dark skin and am not African American, but I don't care what descent or sex or species the character is. If the character is set for a specific theme then it makes no difference to me what he/she looks like. If it is an avatar of myself (say like in The Sims... even though I don't play The Sims lol) then yes, I prefer him to have the option of dark skin...

Sabretooth 07-17-2007 12:55 AM

Heh heh. I'd like an Asian ninja Jedi. Heh, that'd be cool. That way, there would be less of the Force and Darth Vader and more of the Kung-Fu and Chuck Norris.

PoiuyWired 07-17-2007 09:09 AM

Well, If only we have a game with Vos as the main character...

tk102 07-17-2007 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TKA-001
So you're telling me that anyone who knew how to use telekenisis could do that [flinging a several billion-ton object] if they thought they can?

There's other ways to make a ship crash too. Maybe The Apprentice just telekinetically flipped a switch on an internal detonator he'd planted... or force choked the pilots... or yanked on the steering wheel (or whatever its equivalent is).

GeneralPloKoon 07-31-2007 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PoiuyWired
Well, If only we have a game with Vos as the main character...

We need Vos!!!!!

DarkInquisitor 07-31-2007 08:45 PM

I think that it is OK that the apprentice can take down a star destroyer. Perhaps he specializes in Telekinesis? even his saber strikes seem to be backed by force blows. I find it more difficult to see a star destroyer hovering over a city. All canonical references say this cannot be.

PoiuyWired 07-31-2007 11:51 PM

Actually ISD/SD are really bad at flying so close to the planet surface, with really bad mobility. So it is actually not hard for teh dude to pull on the nosecone a bit(or direction adjustment thrusters etc)

A slight change maybe enough, once the whole thing starts to dive it would be hard to recover, if even possable.

Ztalker 08-01-2007 05:42 AM

In the trailer, you can actually hear the mechanical roar of stuff breaking down. After that, gravity sucks. And to a billion ton Star Destroyer, it sucks VERY much.
In several of the books, a force-power is named for the ability the Aprentice uses. In several instances, the Jedi meditates with the machine close to him. After a set amount of time he masters the thing without touching it. Obi-Wan tried this in the book 'Rogue Planet' and I'm sure a 9-year old Anakin Skywalker isn't a very good racer in episode 1, concidering he crashed the pod in his previous race. He must have used the meditation technique as well.

So, in short: The Aprentice guy meditates, sees a trivial mechanical part. Rips it to stardust from a distance. After that he leaves gravity to do the job. :)

Okay, now about the racism thingy:
Dark Side :xp:

CraZy_B 08-03-2007 06:48 PM

It's funny to see you all reply to the original post as "What, you want a black guy?". My first thought was that he meant an alien species. It's probably cause I live in Europe :)

Besides, it would be fun to get an alien main character. (You could only do that in Jedi Academy... well sort of. But let's admit it... Jaden sucked)

Jae Onasi 08-04-2007 03:25 AM

Link for the vid in case anyone's interested.

DarkInquisitor 08-04-2007 09:14 PM

Shoulda made him Chiss instead. That woulda been sweet.

Alexander the Great 08-06-2007 02:30 AM

What's with people and Chiss these days? Am I the only one who thinks that blue skin doesn't look that cool? [/offtopic]

Anyway, about the Star Destroyer thing, he probably Force pulled the front of it downward. If its engines are making it go forward, that's essentially redirecting the ship's course, therefore driving it straight into the ground. I don't think you'd have to be a Sith god to do that.

CraZy_B 08-06-2007 04:33 PM

But you could never really see anyone pull such a mass before. And then he simply stops it like it's nothing. Remember how it took some time for Yoda to raise the X-Wing?


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