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TripHammer 10-07-2007 07:12 AM

Anakin as Emperor?
 
In the duel of Palpy and Yoda... Palpatine makes mention that "Vader will become more powerful than either of us". But Vader never does. I guess we can thank Obi Wan for creating another cyborg that uses the force (Grievous comes to mind).

But I started thinking.. do you think Anakin would have actually been more powerful than the emperor if he never wound up on the low ground against Kenobi and became stumpy the burnt toast sith? If left to develop into a sith apprentice unimpeded by his disability or handicap that Obi left him with... Do you think Vader indeed could have been the emperor?

Before his duel with Obi Wan.. Anakin was speaking of ruling his empire with Padme at his side... So Anakin definitely had ambitions for it. Did Obi take some steam out of his step... and Vader was content at being the Emperor's gopher?

PoiuyWired 10-07-2007 01:28 PM

Vader would always like to take over, he said the same thing to Luke.

And yes, I do think that Palpy is going to Die by Anakin's hands one way or another anyways. While it might not be Palpy's landing on Mustafar, it could certainly be within the next few years ...

Commander Obi-Wan 10-07-2007 01:58 PM

Most likely. The alternate ending of the Revenge of the Sith game, kinda helped. :p Anakin/Darth Vader had intentions to overrule the Empire, and probably would. Just like Sidious did to his master.

adamqd 10-07-2007 02:14 PM

GL says that Anakin would have become the most powerful force user ever, if he had not been so badly maimed by Obi-Wan, but even if he was more powerful than Palpatine, he had nowhere near the guile, nor the intelligence. He could not rule the Galaxy imho

stoffe 10-07-2007 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adamqd
GL says that Anakin would have become the most powerful force user ever, if he had not been so badly maimed by Obi-Wan, but even if he was more powerful than Palpatine, he had nowhere near the guile, nor the intelligence. He could not rule the Galaxy imho

Indeed. Palpatine didn't become Emperor by strolling into the Senate chamber tossing around bolts of lightning and force choking people left and right. Brute force only works so far if you want to usurp power in something as vast as the Galactic Republic. Guile, manipulation, scheming, political maneuvering and plotting were just as important as raw strength in the force for that. Palpatine was a skilled puppet master, knowing how to pull people's strings to make them do as he wished.

Anakin was a typical enforcer/right-hand-man/Malak type of person who could get the dirty work done, but was never portrayed as much of a mastermind or a charismatic person with political influence other than what he got through Palpatine.

Q 10-07-2007 03:50 PM

If you're only refering to the Anakin of the prequels then I'd have to agree with you. But the Darth Vader of the OT (esp. ESB!) was perfectly capable of ruling the galaxy.

You see, they're two completely different characters. Prequel Anakin was a friggin' idiot that totally undermined the character of Darth Vader, IMHO.

Yet another reason why I despise the prequels with every fiber of my being.:swear:

Fettscommander 10-08-2007 12:08 PM

I think anakin would have attacked palpie if he hadn't killed padme and if he hadn't been turned into a cyborg. lol

Fredi 06-14-2008 01:31 PM

Yeah ... Vader can kill Sidious ... Vader is stronger ... even with his problems as cyborg ... still he could have become Emperor ... I just wonder why he did not killed Palpy on the 20 something years that passed from Epi.III to IV.

TKA-001 06-14-2008 03:41 PM

Vader as he was in Episode III obviously couldn't rule the Empire, even if he could kill Sidious.

Vader as he was during the Galactic Civil War obviously didn't kill Sidious because if he tried, he would get killed exactly like in Episode VI.

To be hϕnest, I have doubts that even with his reputation and experience of the OT that Vader could rule the Empire. Almost everybody in the entire Empire hated him.

M@RS 06-14-2008 03:43 PM

In the Ep. 3 video game, you can choose to kill Obi-Wan and kill Sidious and become Emporor or follow the movie...

Rev7 06-14-2008 04:03 PM

I don't think that Anakin would make a very good Emperor, anyways. He just doesn't have it. I don't really tyhink that Anakin (Vader) had the courage to overthrow the Emperor. Its as simple as that....

TKA-001 06-14-2008 05:07 PM

Quote:

In the Ep. 3 video game, you can choose to kill Obi-Wan and kill Sidious and become Emporor or follow the movie...
Wrong. It is true that in the game Vader can kill Sidious, but it is never implied that he becomes the Emperor. Δs soon as Vader kills him, the screen fades to black and the game ends, obviously to prevent the player from having to undergo the disappointment of having to see their character get gunned down by the nearby clone troopers immediately afterward.

Quote:

I don't think that Anakin would make a very good Emperor, anyways. He just doesn't have it. I don't really tyhink that Anakin (Vader) had the courage to overthrow the Emperor. Its as simple as that....
I disagree that he wouldn't have the "courage" to attack Sidious. His conversation with Obi-Wan prior to their duel indicates that he was already planning on killing the Emperor, so I think the fact that he would get wasted in any confrontation is a more obvious issue. Then there's the matter of getting the support of the Imperial leaders, which is doubtful considering his lack of a reputation at the time, which was already discussed in this thread.

Rev7 06-14-2008 05:27 PM

Well, didn't we see Anakin hesitate to attack the Emperor in ROTJ?

M@RS 06-14-2008 05:49 PM

True, but only because he thought Sidious would stop, when he didn't then he attacked Sidious...

MachineCult 06-14-2008 06:28 PM

Wasn't Palpatine refering to Vader one day killing him? and taking his place as Master and presumably emperor, like the other Sith before him.

Rev7 06-15-2008 01:23 AM

Well Palp said, "Vader will become more powerful than either of us", as you already know. I am not really sure what he was really trying to say. I think that he said that only because Anakin was the chosen one.

adamqd 06-15-2008 04:43 AM

George has stated that if Anakin wasn't maimed at mustafar he would of surpassed the Emperor and probably taken his place, but cyborg Vader was roughly 80% as powerful as the Emperor so, no :)

Rev7 06-15-2008 01:37 PM

That shold pretty much answer your question. :)

DarthSeverus 06-15-2008 01:41 PM

Well on the subject of the game Episode III ending I doubt the troopers there could have gunned down Anakin, anymore that the remaining clone troopers in the Jedi Temple were able to gun down Obi-Wan or Yoda. Whether Anakin would have had any chance of being accepted as Emperor after killing Sidious (if he had not lost to Obi) is another question

RyuuKage 06-15-2008 03:34 PM

If I recall correctly, the clonetroopers on Mustafar in the Ep3 game's alternate ending seemed to accept Vader's claim of lordship over the Emperor. Theoretically, it's likely that they were conditioned to accept the Sith way of Apprentice overcoming the Master, and then rather than kill the "traitor", follow him instead. They followed a Sith Lord like Palpy without question, after all.

TKA-001 06-15-2008 05:46 PM

Quote:

I doubt the troopers there could have gunned down Anakin, anymore that the remaining clone troopers in the Jedi Temple were able to gun down Obi-Wan or Yoda.
There's a big difference between this hypothetical situation and the Obi-Wan and Yoda situation: Yoda and Obi-Wan were ready for the clones with their lightsabers drawn, and they obviously started at α normal distance. In this instance, Vader was standing less than a yard away from the clones and didn't even have his lightsaber on. It would be as easy for the clones to kill him then as it would be any of the Jedi in Order 66 (as seen in the movie).

Quote:

Theoretically, it's likely that they were conditioned to accept the Sith way of Apprentice overcoming the Master, and then rather than kill the "traitor", follow him instead.They followed a Sith Lord like Palpy without question, after all.
That's insane. Why would Palpatine make it easier for someone to kill him and get away with it? Palpatine specifically crafted the Empire's government and military (especially the stormtroopers) to be loyal to him alone. Ultimately, everyone answered to him, and the clones had no reason whatsoever to accept the execution of their leader over some arbitrary rule in an obscure culture that they didn't even know about.

DarthSeverus 06-16-2008 09:01 AM

Well, the Jedi gunned down at close range didn't know to be on their guard against treachery from their own clone troopers and had their guard down. However, Anakin knew all about the clone's nature and their possible allegiance (having just wiped out the Jedi of the Temple with them), so he have been aware of this and had the clone trooper's on his 'Force radar', and he was not unarmed, in the game scenario his lightsaber remains in his hand. 2nd, there's a big difference between a majority of Jedi and those of the calibre of Anakin, Obi-Wan and Yoda (and later Luke etc) these are the exceptional among the Jedi, so what succeeded with other Jedi failed with them partly due to that (certainly at least in Yoda's case).

In the end I guess this scenario will ulitmately be down to someone's personal opinion though, (since it never happened in the movie, and the game doesn't resolve it either) but IMO I don't see those troopers taking Anakin down.

TKA-001 06-16-2008 12:37 PM

If Vader was stupid enough to even consider killing Palpatine right in front of his men in that situation, then that proves that he would never expect the clones to turn on him. Beζides, even if he was so far above the caliber of other Jedi (no evidence to support such assumptions), I seriously doubt that it would be possible for him to deflect laser fire from eight clone troopers at once at point blank range, with each clone facing him from different angles.

Rev7 06-16-2008 06:50 PM

Force Jump, anyone?

I'm sure that there are ways. I don't think that the Clone Troopers would just let Vader off of the hook though....

M@RS 06-16-2008 07:28 PM

Why argue about something that never happened? I mean really, it never happened, can't you just watch or read something without wondering, well what if...

TKA-001 06-16-2008 07:40 PM

Because watching something fictional is in and of itself wondering "what if".

M@RS 06-16-2008 07:43 PM

Hehe, fine go ahead I was just wondering anyways...

Lord Foley 06-16-2008 10:48 PM

I'll throw my take into the mix.

Quote:

...even if he was so far above the caliber of other Jedi (no evidence to support such assumptions)...
I'm gonna have to say you're dead wrong in this case.

Darth Vader in Episode III was just beginning to unlock his potential. The Emperor clearly thought that Vader would some day be more powerful than he. And remember, Anakin was about 5 years of training behind other Jedi and still one of the best. Between AOTC and ROTS it is clear he is still growing in power. And in TPM, it is clearly stated that Anakin's raw power is greater than any Jedi in recorded history ("...his reading is off the chart...").

Vader clearly had the ambition to become the Emperor, as he told Padme, Luke, and probably his secret apprentice. Whether or not Vader would have been able to rule is obviously subject to speculation, but I like to think he would have, not because of him being intellectually or even emotionally capable, but because his abilities with the Force would have grown to unreal levels. I think if he had ruled, he would have been able to use some form of battle meditation- even untrained- to be able to turn events in his favor 100% of the time. Plus, eveyone in their right mind would be terrified of him.

But clearly, it was not to be. His own arrogance destroyed all of his potential before it could even blossom. That's my take.

TKA-001 06-16-2008 10:51 PM

Why do people seem to think that a person having force powers somehow guarantees that people will follow that person?

Lord Foley 06-16-2008 10:56 PM

I don't think they'll follow him because he had Force powers, but I do think the clones would follow him. Palpatine knew the way of the Sith: even if he did plan to rule for as long as he could, he could see Anakin would reach levels he could only dream of.

People would be terrified of Vader. He wouldn't have ruled the same way as the Emperor; I'm sure the Rebellion would have caused more havoc for Vader than it did for Palpy, but again, I truly believe Vader would have eventually been able to sway everything his way with his unheard of affinity for the Force.

TKA-001 06-17-2008 08:41 AM

Quote:

I don't think they'll follow him because he had Force powers, but I do think the clones would follow him. Palpatine knew the way of the Sith: even if he did plan to rule for as long as he could, he could see Anakin would reach levels he could only dream of.
Δgain, why would Palpatine make it easier for someone to kill him and get away with it? He has no reason to care for the Sith legacy any longer; he's already had his revenge and destroyed the Jedi Order.

MachineCult 06-17-2008 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TKA-001 (Post 2479545)
Δgain, why would Palpatine make it easier for someone to kill him and get away with it? He has no reason to care for the Sith legacy any longer; he's already had his revenge and destroyed the Jedi Order.

But he invited Luke to strike him down in ROTJ, surely he wasn't just joking.

Lord Foley 06-17-2008 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TKA-001 (Post 2479545)
Δgain, why would Palpatine make it easier for someone to kill him and get away with it? He has no reason to care for the Sith legacy any longer; he's already had his revenge and destroyed the Jedi Order.

On the other hand, why would he care if it was easier for them to assume power if he was already dead? It's not easier to kill him, just if Vader did, well, that was how it would be. I don't think Palpatine started thinking about ruling forever until he saw Vader was no longer the ultra-Sith Palpatine intended for him to be.

RyuuKage 06-17-2008 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TKA-001 (Post 2478557)
That's insane. Why would Palpatine make it easier for someone to kill him and get away with it? Palpatine specifically crafted the Empire's government and military (especially the stormtroopers) to be loyal to him alone. Ultimately, everyone answered to him, and the clones had no reason whatsoever to accept the execution of their leader over some arbitrary rule in an obscure culture that they didn't even know about.

not someone, his APPRENTICE

the clones would know who Vader was. it makes sense if you think about it, lol. They wouldn't have followed anyone else, obviously.

TKA-001 06-17-2008 03:01 PM

But why would the traditional process of the Sith apprentice succeeding the master mean anything to them? They don't even know that Palpatine or Vader were Sith.

Lord Foley 06-18-2008 09:00 AM

Perhaps it was a hidden order, like 66, to follow Vader if the Emperor dies, even if it was he who killed Palps.

TKA-001 06-18-2008 12:00 PM

Again, there is no reason for such an order to exist.

RyuuKage 06-18-2008 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TKA-001 (Post 2479758)
But why would the traditional process of the Sith apprentice succeeding the master mean anything to them? They don't even know that Palpatine or Vader were Sith.

They were conditioned to turn on their Jedi generals and execute them on a moments notice. Why wouldn't they also be conditioned to accept Sith ways?

M@RS 06-18-2008 06:20 PM

Yeah, I mean, the thing is, they didn't shoot back in the Video Game, that should be canonical

Lord Foley 06-18-2008 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TKA-001 (Post 2480188)
Again, there is no reason for such an order to exist.

Then it just comes down to whether or not Palpatine would want Vader to rule if he killed him or not. As much as Palps wanted power for himself, I think he would have given the order, if only because once he was dead, there was no reason for him just to make things difficult for the Sith.


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